The Watch - ‘The Bear’ Clocks Out. Plus, ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 2 and ‘Star City’ Episode 6.

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 2 (8:19). Then they break down the rest of ‘The Bear’ Season 5 and share their feelings on the series as a whole (34:38). Later, they discuss ‘Star City’ Episode 6 (01:07:41). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jason Arreola The Ringer is committed to responsible trading. Please visit⁠ https://fanduel.com/predicts⁠ to learn more about the resources and helpline. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, ready to celebrate 250 more. It's Andy Greenwald.

250 more episodes of the Bear season five? It's great to see you. And I am excited for this dialogue that we're going to have today on The Watch podcast, which you can email at The Watch at Spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram at the Watchpod underscore. And you can watch us on YouTube at Ringer Dash TV where we share space with the prestige TV podcast.

And you can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us. We don't share space. We hold space for Joe and Rob. It's great to see you. It's really great to see you. It's good to have Kaiya back. We have a full house today and a full show. You have a lot of expectations for today, I think.

Here's the laundry list. All right. The to-do list. Opening banter. So far. crushing it. Uh, we may do dragon. I mean, we, we should discuss a little bit.

I have some questions. Dragon, bear, and Star City. How about that? Yeah, I mean, those are the things I watched. Yeah. Um, you also watch some other stuff. You had a robust cultural weekend. I did.

There was a lot, I mean, that was a lot of television, man. I still got it, you know? And you know what? Can I tell you something? Yeah. Um, the industry is, it's not the industry. The agency, straight bangers and mash. Just tucking into it, dude.

How far? How far did you go? I'm at four now. Okay. It's just good as shit, man. The Bureau, that was a good story. I know. They really knew what they were doing.

Now they just say it in English. It's awesome. So much easier. Can I give you just a little glimpse into my headspace before we get started? I'd like nothing more. In fact, this podcast is essentially built around that. Well, so I don't know if this has ever happened to you, and I don't know what this means specifically, but I was, you know, I was line of stuff.

I mean, really this morning was devoted to a very important task, which is collating our various songs for our much anticipated. barbecue playlist, which definitely will now soundtrack one of the weirdest barbecues of all time. So that's not out yet. We will release that via our Instagram. Because of the music or because of the nature of the country? Because of America. Because of the interesting collision between where our personal muses have led us recently. I can only do so much, Andy. I mean, last year I had a lot of aggressive music and you said that I would have ruined anyone's barbecue. So I tried to make it soft and NPR friendly for you. Ruined is not the word. Also, soft.

does usually not involve Ice Age and Salem? But, okay, to each his own. That's not my issue. My issue was I spent a, you know, my head was really in that game this morning and I was trying to collate my thoughts about all the various television we were going to discuss today.

I was really excited to just kind of check out the AQI down here in Los Angeles. Oh, yeah, right. And was... Do you think it's actually raining or is this God crying on the bottom of the city? Or did they shoot the hoses so high that it's only now?

Yeah. So all of those things were happening. And, you know, also it's Monday morning. I was boiling up some eggs, you know, and then was distracted briefly by some London communication on the WhatsApp app. And I was like, hmm, should probably lift the toaster because it seems like I'm really overdoing these English muffins. Shout out to Nooks and crannies, our former sponsor.

Yeah. And... So you're scrambling some eggs? No, it was boiling. Boiling some eggs. With an English muffin, okay. Well, here's the thing, Chris. There was no English muffin.

it was actually a kitchen towel that was fully aflame in my, I had set fire to a kitchen towel. Like by putting it on the toaster? No, the toaster wasn't involved. That's, you're with, you with me? Yeah. I had lifted the lid of the pot with a kitchen towel because it was hot, placed it what I believe to be a reasonable distance from the pot.

I see you. And then just fired up some messaging. And then just was kind of like vibing with the smell of Los Angeles. inside of my kitchen. Maybe that was, maybe the real issue is we are so desensitized. Yeah, it is. It is probably at this point you could just like, all I do in my house now is burn foam just to feel, exactly, just to feel something. So I immediately took an N95 mask and put it on the cat and then I drove in to see you. So I, but are you sure that is it, are we okay at your house? Like the embers are out? You know me very well. I doused that towel so intensely in the sink. There was no more flame.

Good. Before I left, I then disposed of the towel. And yet, just now on the five freeway, sorry, no free ads, on a freeway, I... That's like the World Cup Stadium. On Los Angeles... Los Angeles Road. I was on Los Angeles Freeway. And my thoughts are so...

I am not this creative in my script writing as I am when anxious and driving to work. Because I imagine that one... little smoldering ember was still inside of the towel and was now spreading to whatever no doubt highly flammable substance was in my trash can yeah your collaborator in chilies would have you yeah no those those are where they belong i sent the it's coming home chris when it comes to the chilies so that's where that's your that's where i am today you are worried that your house is engulfed in flames or maybe it's a fresh start okay uh where would you like to start today I mean, would you like to start with one of the three shows?

Do you want to tell me a little bit about your cultural weekend? Would you like to save that for After Dark? Well, by the way, also, you know, we didn't, maybe we were waiting for Kaya, or maybe now we're afraid to do it in front of Kaya. But we didn't do After Dark last Thursday where we were going to discuss the wedding of the century. Of New York City with socialism? Oh, Taylor, right. Because we did talk about DSA last week. I don't want to lead with Taylor.

No, I don't either. I'm saying, so that's probably our After Dark sorted. Yes. Well, I mean, this is why we don't have a show on Thursday. We have somewhere to be. You're just telling people now? Wow. Okay.

Let's start with House of the Dragon. Yeah. You know what? Just say it at the beginning. You went and saw the invite. It's only in seven theaters. Sure, because it's only in seven theaters. And I think it's worth...

Andy's movie corner is always a delight. So you give it a shout out. I mean, what a great movie. Yeah. It will be rolling out, I think, over the next two weeks. I had a very... Unexpectedly spontaneous Los Angeles experience where I didn't know the movie was out. I then saw that it was – it's playing only in theaters that can play it in the 35-millimeter

projection film format. So it's here at the Vista, and it's probably in a couple other cities. And I just – there I was. Just a young – nope, just a man without a calling. And I went into the theater. I saw a movie I knew very little about. I think it's phenomenal. I loved it.

And then Hollywood, baby, as soon as it was over, Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogen appear to be interviewed by someone who's coming for your crown, Sanal Lathan. Letter. I would love nothing more than to do battle with Sanal Lathen from America's host. I do want to talk about the movie, and I do, I think she's a wonderful actor, and I really like her. But I did feel a little bit like, you don't see us auditioning for love and basketball. Do you know what I mean?

Like, there is a reason why it's just. Generally you or Sean on a director's chair at the front of these things. Do you know what I mean? Because you usually don't begin your Q&A's by being like, man, whoa. Am I right? Wow. Maybe we should. Honestly, that would probably translate better.

Anyway, I just couldn't believe that we can still make funny, engaging, emotional adult movies. I think it's a phenomenal movie. It's a grown-up movie. I recommend anybody listening to this should see it. There's a big picture episode in the can coming soon. I don't know exactly when Sean's playing a little fast and loose with the schedule right now. But we did a pot about it. And I love that movie.

That's why you're saving your takes. Look at you. It's not really saving my takes. It's just like 150 people got to see the movie. I don't want to spoil it. It's just us here. Just us gals. You can leak a little something.

Sean's not listening. Sean can't hurt you here. He does listen. I know. Yeah. And then he stops when we start talking about TV shows, which we're going to do now. Okay. Let's talk about House of the Dragon.

I thought that one way. to look at this episode, which I talked about with Mal and Joe in depth, and I'm happy to answer any questions because now I am the lore master on this show. Okay, how's Mal doing? Fine. Good. Oh, because of anything in particular from this episode? No, you said you could answer questions. Oh, yeah, she's doing great. Spoilers for the second episode of House of the Dragon season three, which in some kind of calculus could be viewed as the actual season finale for season two.

so I saw much debate about this online about whether or not like the first episode would serve as a better finale or the second episode I think that in a way we arrive at a very good stopping point for a certain story in that Renira is now back on the Iron Throne but just in general like I wanted to do a little gut check for you

because I have given I've created a permission structure for you that we don't have to talk about this every week and that you don't you shouldn't feel like you're in George R.R. Martin Memorial State Penitentiary with me. What do you think of the episode?

First of all, I watched too much television this weekend because my first reaction was, it was a hideous end to the chief designer. Like, I know that what's going on with the Soviet space program is a little, a little fast and loose with security protocols. Can we get Reese for two days? Because Reese Evans is currently

one of the stars of Star City. Well, he's free for future seasons of Star City. Let's put it that way. He's not going to be called. back to Westeros anytime soon. I have to say that the auto high tower ending on this episode where he was two times

basically when he had to take two swings at the pinata. He's called a two pump chump. I believe that's what that means. No? Wouldn't she be the two pump jump in this case? I wouldn't comment. That would be like one of my, that's a new fear unlocked is that I was going to beheaded but the first one missed. you've never had this fear before? No.

You haven't. Clearly we had different middle and high school reading lists. Because I do remember quite a lot of historical textbooks discussing how the guillotine and wasn't always the model of efficiency that we believe it today. 100% of the time. It works 50% of the time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

That's rough stuff. So that was terrifying. But I thought a useful way. to look at this show increasingly and maybe this is, you could say this is Cope, you could say this is like me trying to create like a language to talk about the show.

But I think the more you look at it as this kind of like maximal, maximalist opera, it kind of works better. Talk to explain. Well, because, you know, the people talking in rooms, broken characters trying to put together a broken world

of Game of Thrones, the humor of Night of the Seven kingdoms. I think those are more approachable. And Game of Friends, the reason why it was such a huge gateway for so many people was that those characters were not altogether different than ones you would see on Sopranos or, you know,

like other television at the time, they were wearing capes, they had shields, but they were fathers and sons and daughters and sisters, even, you know? And dragons, eventually. Eventually. But I think that they backloaded all that stuff and they backloaded a lot of like the

hard fantasy stuff that is in that text and led with of course yeah family and uh you know I think House of the Dragon every show probably is served well by this where you can kind of figure out like what's the way to watch this and how should I be

which way should I lean when I'm like leaning it you know like if I'm if I'm enjoying the show what is the best way to sort of like interpret it and I do think seeing this as an almost like heightened kind of over over dramatic in a good way show helps my enjoyment of it. I find that interesting and I find that

compelling. I think when you were saying that you were monitoring the debate about like where the season two ought to have ended or could have ended, is it generally understood? Like what is the, in terms of the people who are really invested in the show, which clearly I am not? But like is there a feeling of disappointment

about what the second season was? Is there... Okay. Yes. All right. Almost universal. Fair. Yeah. I...

This America can agree on... That's really nice. That's really nice. That was an abrupt season finale. It sure was. And look, I think there's the type of criticism that we can do that, you know, when we talk about shows that we're struggling with or that we're having mixed reactions to that can be categorized as constructive, there's a type of criticism that we do that is ultimately

kind of a dead end, which is the things that we're. we wish it could be. I don't really have a lot of that for this show because it is so just committed to, A, not being for me, which is fine, but I really do feel that it is entirely for people who are already within the coalition, let's say. So, like Mal and Joanna, who I adore, and when I hear you guys talk about the show or I hear them talk about the show, I'm always more interested in their perspective on it than I am on my own or even on the show itself because, for example, when on the pod you did with them, Joanna was talking about the arrival of the Northman. Yeah, that starts.

And she was talking about who these people were, who they, what they represented within the world at this time, how exciting it was to see this on screen, how you could read so much into Damon's reaction because he knows the history of them. And I thought, well, how nice for them. Like when you drive past a quinceaniera in downtown Pasadena, do you know what? I'm like, this looks like a beautiful day. I'm going to continue driving now. I was not invited. That's pretty much how I feel about the show at this point. Outside looking in. Outside looking in. So that said, there are threads here that I do find compelling even within this episode.

Like, if you were to think about it in terms of the larger Westerozy project, kind of like the Heritage Foundation, they're finally getting what they want. Reneira claiming the throne with tears and snot running down her face after this nightmare of a day

is in a vac that's interesting that's compelling that's different than what we've seen but the biggest I mean the biggest note that I took was the scene when prior to flying to King's Landing

and I'm going to need your help explaining why they couldn't have just done this at any point or they just afraid of the one really big dragon. Vigar, yeah. But she has, again, not unreasonably taken to her bed because her son is dead. And Damon comes over and starts just riffing. I mean, he basically starts talking to her about prophecies the way we would talk about spy novels and bars in the early 2000s.

Yeah. You know, like, no, you don't know what Lent Dighton did in the third trilogy. And he's talking about the song of ice and fire and the prophet. And he's basically saying, if all of this is true that there's going to be someone who we know is DeNaris, who takes over the world eventually, then you got to get up. You got to get back up. And you got to get on your dragon and fly because of the story we have to fulfill. And I'm sitting here being like, this must be how the people locked in a room in Watford feel when they're writing the show. They're like, we got to make the fucking story donuts because this is all fate. There is no. emotional reason to do it. He's saying, go do all this so DeNaris can happen. Now, not only did we know DeNaris happened because we watch Game of Thrones,

we also watched the last season of Game of Thrones, and it didn't work out great. So, I wish that there was a, I wish in that moment of low emotion or real emotion that the reason for doing things was more tangible

than, there's a really good story I heard that many people enjoyed on HBO. I think if you connect what he's saying that it's a very wise way of looking at things that I think it presents a storytelling problem

but not a character problem and I think one of the things it's been cool about this first of all I think Emma Darcy is doing a wonderful job this season I agree with that

in a very different type of performance that was what I was talking about the operatic part like her sitting down and the reflection Claire Kilner directed this episode

I think she does wonderful job at the show and the reflection in the blood of her taking the throne, her kind of looking both like a child but also a broken man like her father like in the throne I thought was great. Allison showing up, you know, it's a very like,

it's like Verdi. It's like, you know, like the person comes and sees their father killed right at the last second. But I think that the interesting moral problem or not even moral, but like the problem solving problem that it presented that character is you are incredibly important both as a war fighter, because you have a dragon, but also you are essential as a figurehead. Yep. So if you are the thing that this guy saw in his vision,

you actually can't do shit because we have to wrap you in bubble wrap. And that's why she can't go fight Amund. This is my interpretation of it. This is also why Joel Embed can't do back-to-backs. Well, the princess who was promised, You know, like, it was like the idea that the reason why Jace, while a bit dumb, was right, was that she probably would have caught some harpoons out there in the first episode of the season.

Right. And if she goes down, this whole thing goes down. Right. Because this isn't based on a political coalition or an alliance of families of like, you know what, this guy really has a lot of good ideas about how to run Westeros. This is a bunch of people have agreed on a myth or an idea or a dream or whatever. And a figurehead. Yeah.

And so it's got to be her. They've gotten really good at doing the action stuff. They've gotten really good at making the dragons look good. But again, I think the thing that I just find unsatisfying, it makes me think that ultimately this show is the Westeroce version of, I mean, I think you fed me this. I think you were right of like a Rings of Power type show, which is like, or a Star Trek, whatever the current show is on Paramount,

where it's like, if you love this stuff, you're going to find a lot to like here, and it might be a different storytelling. But for me, all of the interesting emotional storytelling is in parentheses between what is now endless scenes of overpowered video game heroes slicing through red shirts. There's just so much, oh, here we are.

Let me stab eight people through the throat. There's only, Chris, I know you were surprised by what happened to Otto, but in my experience, there are limited ways to open up arterial veins. There just aren't so many. You know what I mean? Maybe there's some...

Should we do a top five? throat slashings in TV history right now? I mean, box cutter's got to be number one from Breaking Bad. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, they're all good. You know, we live in a golden age. But you know what I mean?

And the reason I was thinking of that was when you were talking about the important, the bubble-wrap nature of Rainira, but it's also just weird to me, but necessary for storytelling, that Reneer and Damon, who are sensibly the soon-to-be incestuous king and queen of this reunited realm, they're like, riding, they're riding to King's Landing on the back of their nuclear bombs like Doctor's Strange Love, and then they get off the bombs and they're like, now we'll just stab, do a little bit of stabbing, oops, we got cornered. That seemed foolish until it all worked out. Yeah, Joe pointed out something similar, so I was glad to know that that wasn't just like

our casual eye being like, why did they do that? But I guess ultimately that's why Allison had sort of gotten the gold cloaks, you know, Damon's old crew on side. I think a good, a good illustration of what you're talking about in that I think it's a well done, well acted scene but there is a scene in between Damon leaving his army and getting back to Rune era where he

meets Alice Rivers who is the witch who... Oh, is that Gail Rankin? And that's Gail Rankin and that's the Witch who roll shotgun with him with the weird tree. It was him in the tree in her. It was a weird... And that was like probably the most emblematic of like did you guys misschedule this

shoot? Like how did this wind up that you have the most, one of the most dynamic characters on this show is kind of in isolation. Were you talking about the tree? No, Matt Smith. And so Matt Smith and Gail Rankin are wonderful performers. And here's Alice, a mysterious woman with deep ties to Heron Hall in some way. Yeah. And Damon, who is, you know, dedicated to Renierra.

He is. But she may not be endgame for him. she may not be his one and only. Oh, you think he has some other nieces? No, I just mean like he was married before. You know, like he obviously has a thing or connection with Alice. Yeah. That's a very, I think, significant scene.

Yeah. In the larger narrative tapestry of this show. I think that will be a turning point. Did you read it as such or were you like, this is another like room tone to people talking about what they did and what they're going to do kind of moment. I feel the way I felt from the beginning with the show, which is why probably listening to me is diminishing returns. I cannot for the life of me see where the story is coming from. And what I mean by that is like looking at the fuel reserves of what we have to tell, what's powering another season and a half, right? I think they said

that it was going to be four seasons of story here. Partly because giant ass dragons aside, the relative randomness to the casual of when they can and can't do things. Like everyone was so paralyzed for so many episodes of the show last season and then they just flew in and took the throne. And now she's there. Once Aymand was reared out to go to Heron Hall, yeah.

But that, the amount... Where he finds a new GF. But in order... Oh, that's right. Do you think he's going to be okay? Amon, fine. But he's got... You've got a little...

But he has a new agent in Alice. You got stuck a little bit in the back there. I think he'll make it. I was glad to see a Targaryen actually get stabbed. Yeah. I can't believe I just said that. Well, you got me just when I think about, but I thought that was nice. I just mean that, like, we began at the, we began, remember when the battlefield on the show was the womb?

We began with them as children just to get to a point where one of their children was distracted so they could go back. Like, that is a lot of television made out of what feels like not a lot of real estate. It's more like, honestly, sometimes I think it's, it feels. and plays a little bit like the way it feels to read nonfiction where you're like you're reading like I was reading like the Rick Ackinson

invasion trilogy it's like Africa, Italy and D-Day and like I love them but there's 15 pages of and then the men packed the socks and then the men packed 80,000 cans of tuna and the men packed

underwear and the men This is the part I'd like but that's a lot like you're And you're kind of like, ah, yes, a storyteller might be like everything they needed, they packed away. Right. It's a history, not a... You know what I mean? And I think there is a dedication, perhaps in the beginning, ironically enough, since George R. Martin and Ryan Coddle had this sort of schism, there was in the beginning maybe an over-deference to showing every step of the way. Totally. And no more so, nor never more so, than when they did a four-episode preamble of these girls as teens.

because, well, for whatever reason, but they obviously didn't want to just be like, here's grown up Allison and grown up Reneer in their last moment of peace, and now they're going to split. I think it's, look, it is interesting from a perspective of someone who is a fan of the industry

and a, I mean, we watch it, like, to see a show. No, I'm serious. LinkedIn. Fan of the industry. Just a fan of the industry, man. Well, that's because I'm just trying to, That's just glazing Mickey and Conrad again. Can't help it.

I, no, but that like... Who are some of your favorite guys in the industry right now? Oh, my God. Josh Tomorrow is killing it right now. What about Gunner? You know, no one talks about Gunner anymore now that Paramount's buying Warner Brothers. But for a minute, Gunner was king.

He was going to have his own little fiefdom of networks. Then Ellison came over the top. I don't think we've heard the last of him. He's going to take Harren Hall. I think I do find it interesting when shows because of their, whether it's because their actual quantitative success or the necessity of the project for the bottom line of the corporation or whatever, to keep going as it fixes itself and rewrites itself and redirects itself. And I think that you couldn't get anyone on the record to say this. But it would be fascinating at some point to read a post-mortem of the show with Ryan Condal or. or with George Martin, or both of them, ideally,

or with other people in the room, talking about how the goals changed and what mistakes they feel were made to get to this point. I don't mean to be, like, walking back or being overly negative about what I said last week, which was an episode like the Battle of the Gullet episode, is in many ways, I think, the best case scenario for what this show is.

I'm not trying to wish it to be something else. No. But to bring it full circle to answer your question, I enjoyed the scene you're talking about because I think that Gail Rankin's slight, playful smirk on her witchy face is the closest this dead-ass solemn show has come to any sense of humor.

That virus in Agon. Yes, that's right. I do enjoy that. So I enjoy Matt Smith and Gail Rankin sharing the screen. No point was I like, aha, this is a door opening into what the show is going to be because I do not understand what the show is going to be unless I've signed up for a history of Westeros class.

You may have. Apparently, I have. You may have. And I've been truant and you're not allowing it. I thought Laris and Agon were a kind of breath of fresh air, even though obviously both deformed men, one whose skin is still burning off, apparently. Yeah, so you get smelled like my kitchen this morning a little bit. They are also completely on the same page and how they are acting.

So, like, there is just like a much more of like a naturalistic style going on. on between those two. Yeah. Most of this show is like, I have walked into a chamber and I am like, my queen, you know. Which, by the way, is also the Bear Season 5, but I can't wait to talk about that. We can actually get to that? It's just people walking into rooms going, hey, can I ask you a question? What a golden age of people walking into rooms to talk to someone else in the room.

Oh, because television's got so many other ideas than walking into rooms. No, we always come back to the classics. You're not wrong. You're not wrong. Anything else you wanted to hit from HOTD? before we move on? No, I just, can you explain? Raina's the one who

ghost rode the dragon and now was like a screwed up? Yes, and she went to the veil. She went back to the veil where she was basically on an extended babysitting gig with some of other Reneer's kids and was just trying to get them out of harm's way.

And because she hadn't claimed a dragon yet, she was given this sort of belittling task. She goes out there, it's the veil. She finds sheepstealer who's... And we've all agreed, that's his name. Feral. Trains him

in so much as she claims him, but can't get him to do anything she wants, half of what she wants, but then the other half is kind of like, well, whatever is down there is getting lit up. She does the thing, he does the thing that she wants. He just does it across the board. Yeah. And then she goes...

both sides sit. She flies him back to the veil, says to Jane, what's up? Can I get some refuge here? Jane's like, nah. And she's like, well, I have a dragon. I'll protect the veil. And she's like, I just won't look for you. Yeah, you can be here. You can have that hill that we're going to pretend

isn't there. Is that what you were asking? What if someone did that for us in like Somerset? Like you don't, I'm not going to go over here where this cottage is. You could just hang out. Do you want to rough sleep out in a meadow somewhere? I'm going to turn your Charlie Rose bid back on you for one second. And Raina, I know you from where? She's one of the kids. Whose kids?

She's Bayla's sister. Right. Oh, Bayla. Yeah. And Bayla is Corliss's granddaughter. I mean, it's all mixed up. You got to look at the family tree. You can do the work.

You can get the map of Westrose out. You can get the family tree out. You know, if you want, you can Google your ass off. Chris. And find out what happens. Man, I'm 49 years old. Like, you know? Okay, Google.

First of all, I still ask Jeeves. I'm going backwards. I'm not Googling, it's just, I'm not doing their AI nonsense. It's not even a good search engine anymore. You don't Google? No. What do you use? I use my brain computer.

I just have a certainty about things. It's like what we used to do. We would just be like, do you remember how free it was to like be at a bar and to start talking about some cartoon we misremembered from the 80s? And being like, no, I'm pretty sure that was real. Was that we were young. Our brains were sharp. Fresh and often superpowered. And we were like, I have complete recall for all of this shit.

And all of space and time. Yeah. And now I'll be like, do you remember that thing you said yesterday? And then I will sundown and not be able to remember. It's true. A, what was said yesterday, but B, why I brought it up in the first place. Yeah. It's true.

We did have a beautiful moment last week, though. this is a positive spin on this, where I texted you something that I just remembered you had said on the pod, and I thought it was so charming. And you said, who's this? No, you knew him with me, but you had no recollection of saying that. No memory. Yeah. This is what happens when you, when you are on microphone five days a week is, I just can't remember. Do you think that you- And honestly, that would be good. Like, I hope I do, like, I would love to be brought in front of Congress. And I can just say, honestly, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, but- I do not recall. But Kai and Kaya have an archive. Like, you're going to get undone.

Senator Cassidy's going to... That certainly looks like me, but I just don't remember saying. I'm just picturing like Sheldon White House and like Blumenthal being like, and so you characterize the events of January 6th as what? Are either of those guys still senators? They are, yeah. They are. Oh, I thought you meant like, I think you were like dissing them.

No. I was just, I couldn't remember if Sheldon was still rocking it. Yeah, Sheldon's he still, he's still, you know what else? The great state of Rhode Island. Yeah. Who are not participating in the Fair Affairs in Washington, all the states. Rhode Island is not? No.

Anyone else not? The Kami Corridor is not participating, pretty much. That's sick. Yeah. So that's New England? Pretty much. In Pennsylvania. Has A.J. Brown weighed in on that?

I'm just trying to, like, unite the streams here. You know, you know what? You know what I'm wondering, though? There is a remarkable archive of you now and you're, your takes and, you know, piece by piece, your personal history, even our shared history. Sure. They're going to simone your ass. Oh, make me, like, make an AI bot out of me?

There's going to be, don't you think? It might be a decent to good hang. Just AI, Chris? Am I wrong? Like, I feel like, has this whole thing? Do you think Anthropic could win back the federal government if they were like, the new agent is Chrissy? And he just, if it was, this guy loves Lioness.

If it was just you laughing. If every time you're like, Chrissy, what's this rash? And it's just like, you know what? In Lioness Season 2, episode 4, Joe, played by Zoe Saltana, that's the same thing. First of all, listeners know that there was a period in 2004, 5, and 6 when you watch so many episodes of House MD, I would ask you medical advice. Sure. And you pretty much told me if it was or wasn't Lupus. And you were 100% right.

It was never Lupus. Have I just blown the lid off this thing? I'm sure. I'm sure. Like, I don't think we're the first people to be in danger of getting completely digitized and then obviated. Not me. This is all an act. This isn't even me. You guys don't even know my real name. So we actually love House of the Dragon. You don't know what I like. That's why I constantly zag to defeat the machines. This episode is brought to you by FanDuel predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final

match with Fandul Predix. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your $25 bonus on Fandul predicts.

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dot com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms so we had initially talked about doing the bear in chunks like doing three three two uh we're not doing a show on thursday we've both finished the series due to the nature of which they released the show obviously a binge but also in you know the first seven episodes are made available to the press and then the final episode went up uh on friday thursday right Thursday night. I mean, all the episodes went up concurrently. So the first time that...

So that was when... And then I watched it on Friday. Right. And I think that as we sort of saw on our previous conversation about the first few episodes, where you, very Catholic of you were like, you said we were going to do three. I did three.

And then I was like, I watched all seven and I have a completely different opinion. Let's just finish it. That's what happens when AI hallucinates. She doesn't even listen to the prompt. I'm sorry. I just need your social security. number before we finish this.

That does sound challenging. Have you ever considered murder? So let's talk about the rest of the season of the bear. This is season five of the bear. So spoilers for the entirety of it. Spoilers for all of the bear. Just fair warning. It does seem anecdotally that,

especially with an eight episode runtime this season, which is the first eight episode season, I believe since the first, it had done 10 for the past few seasons. It does seem like people just binge the show. It does. I mean, I can't speak forever. but I don't know many people who savor it, especially this season, which was so...

It was not... I do not... I will go to my grave, people at FX. Even Christopher Story could tell us, like, no, no, no, it's episodic. Like, I want people to, like, watch it and take it some time. No. Not this year. This is a tasting menu of a season.

You were supposed to sit there for the whole thing. That's what... It's about one day. Well, then with a coda. And I think that it's meant to be enjoyed as much together as possible. So with that being said, after watching the first three episodes and being like, I'm as close as I ever have been to sending this back to the chef, how do you feel about it after watching the complete, after enjoying the complete meal? I thought that episode seven and eight were compelling and lovely and a nice coda to a series that now I feel confident saying should have ended two or three years ago. I thought that the show

kicked into action when the cooking actually started. So that's episode five, really? Five or six, I believe. So five is when they start, they open, but nobody has shown up, right? The moment that the season suddenly had a pulse to me

was when Karmie cooks the lamb and pours a little tonato. Tonado on top of it. But it's Chekhov's, Tanano. It was Chekhov's tonato. That tuna? I mean, and to that point, I appreciated the moment when it all suddenly, seemingly goes wrong in seven, because breaking plates is a lot better than spinning plates, which is really what the show have been doing for upwards of 20 plus episodes. Or did you just come up with it? Yes. Yeah, I wrote that one down. I wrote that one down. You're right.

Did you see my eyes? No, but I was like, that's really good if you're just, if you're just, if you're, you're just dealing. No, every so often in my notes app, there's like a line where I was like, put me back in, coach, cracks knuckles, get that granuline column going. I can tell. I can tell sometimes. Every so often. No, this, I mean, honestly, this is one of those times

only because the... You wish you had like 2,000 words. Because the totality of it is deserving of it, and the relationship to the show is complicated enough that I think no matter what we talk about now, it's not really going to capture the full extent of it. because I think there's very little way

to express the nuance necessary to say that I think it is impossible now maybe in a few weeks or months with some hindsight that might change but I think it is impossible now for me to think of this series as a success separate and apart from the fact

that the first two seasons are two of the best seasons of TV of this century. Is that enough? Honestly, probably. And it was certainly enough to give me some pleasure at the end of this season.

But the sheer amount of time spent with characters, as we were joking about before, I don't know if everyone listens to each segment, but with House of the Dragon, the majority of this season, up to the moment when it kicks into action, is people, one character walking into a room saying, hey, can I ask you a question?

And they talk about something that happened in the previous episode. There is no momentum from scene to scene. There is no build. There is no individual story other than Oliver Platte, fucking Brian Coppulman driving around Chicago yelling at people about air rights, a story that also goes nowhere just to kind of get out of the cluster phobia of the restaurant, I thought

it was extremely frustrating. And I think you could capture all of that. And I do want to talk about the positive things of those two episodes. I don't want to get too far off the path with that. But the arrested, paralyzed nature of the show is captured best in the absolute petrification of its main character, from, I believe, midway through. through season three until he puts on a tie in episode 508. Jeremy Allen White is a bizarrely stoic Easter Island statue of himself standing in the background

of this season of TV. Now, is that a story worth telling where Sydney takes over and everyone else steps up and he learns that he actually has a team behind him to catch him if he falls or trust falls? That's a meaningful story. Did he have to be on the show to prove it? Did it have to take this long to get there? I genuinely don't know. And that's when we start to go into the place

where I don't necessarily want to get into, which is who asks for this and what argument did they make to do it. Because it was such a struggle to get to a place that I think was deserving. Okay, so I'll try and hit some of your points and we can just make this into more of a back and forth rather than like a...

Mm-hmm. And allow me to retort kind of thing. I'll say that beyond, you called it compelling, I found seven to be deeply moving. You know, like both because I think this is what I alluded to last Thursday, there's an authenticity, I think, to the characters and the performances,

whether or not they are always being put in a position of maximal entertainment value or interesting storytelling is completely up for debate and your mileage may vary with that. But the behaviors and the emotional states of a lot of these people ring true to me

and some of their experiences ring very true to me and to watch them get some kind of catharsis but also honestly to watch them actually in action again doing what they do. Yeah, I agree with that. For the first time in a long

time to see them kind of like be together and moving around and helping one another and hurting one another and yelling at one another but also like improvising and finding solutions

and fixes. I found it really, really effective and honestly the Karmie stuff was like secondary to me. I found myself just really, really blown away

by Evan Moss Backrock this season. And the Richie character, I think you could make an argument that this show is more about Ritchie and Sid that it is about Karmie. In terms of journey, in terms of transformation,

absolutely. Yes. Now we can, here's the magic trick. Ritchie goes from a guy screaming about incels and, you know, Blade Runner and can't control himself and is essentially like keeping the place alive, dealing coke in the alley. Right. To a six-week stage experience at ever where he, is that how long he's there?

Shorter. Shorter? However long, but not very long, he's at ever. and he comes out the other side with a completely different worldview and a completely different set of priorities. We can debate whether or not that's realistic. It's realistic. It's the Chris Ryan story.

Absolutely. Look at him. I mean, Bill Simmons finishing school. That's right. It only took 14 years. I always thought that his character this season expressed himself through action, even if that action was doing the shirt table, like the EMDR kind of therapy.

Yeah, that kind of like, I heard this on a podcast. I think I'm supposed to do this kind of coping mechanisms. And his conclusion of going to Japan and getting to see the Ninja Museum and going with Jess, but also like even that moment with him and Karmie in the freezer where he's just like, I've never been on a plane. And that was like, that felt earned. I felt like I'd been on the road trip and we finally got to the Woodrow Wilson Restop. together.

What was the other than Joyce? Joyce something. Yeah. But Joyce was a man we found out. Oh, you know that? I did not know that. We're talking about New Jersey Turnpike. Sorry, I'm distracting.

Evan Moss-Backarach's performance absolutely is the beating heart of the show. The transformation of Ritchie is a beautiful thing to watch. And it's also something that I don't want to take for granted. One thing that happens when you have a show in your life with the consistency of the bear is that you begin to blur the lines between actor and character, and you just begin to assume that they show up and are just, you know, it's second nature to them. You almost forget about the magic trick of acting.

And watching not just where he started that character and where he ended that character and realizing that he was holding something consistently the whole time, and then you see an interview with him or you see a video clip of him talking to someone. And he's a distinctive looking guy, and he looks different when he is not being richy. I mean, he is, he is completely subsumed into this character

and understands him on a cellular level. And the wins of the show, I mean, to be clear, like, I've never really had a problem with the pathos of the bear. Like, it is a big, sloppy, bloody, rare stake in terms of its emotions. He's got an open heart. And him excelling and making things happen for people. and the recurring mantra in seven of, I got you, and how you kind of fake it till you make it

when you speak to people you care about, that you keep repeating it, and then they do have each other, that they do dig deeper and find something. Well, it was meaningful. I mean, and it was effective, and I really, really enjoyed that. I think I had trouble with the,

how long it took to get to a place that was already, we were already on the precipice of it, if that makes sense. but I did think that there were some smart decisions looking at the show through his lens like there were more places for him to go whereas I did feel other characters were kind of just playing the hits or whether that's the opportunity they were given on screen

or the performer themselves, I'm not sure. One thing that I didn't love in the season, for example, was like Lionel Boyce, who plays Marcus, who I really like, the journey of the season, the journey of the character overall, which was becoming more and more morose and serious and dramatic, and then culminates in him

basically having a personality transplant for six and seven. Now, I understand it's because his father's coming and he's feeling pressure, but I also just felt the heavy hand of we need some friction to occur in this just absolute love fest that is the bear.

I think between him and Lucas specifically, but I think it was also like, you can't, there's no jeopardy if all these people are essentially like deep down geniuses who all. get along. Jesus, but also like, you know, Marcus's whole problem in the kitchen has been how

deliberity is. Like, they've always wanted him to go faster. They've always wanted him. And what this last service or the last service of the bear shows is like, this is the maximum amount of nothing goes right. But when nothing goes right, like the creativity is actually sparked. So that's where, you know, Karmie thinks because he's dropped this lamb, the last lamb, that the entire night is ruined.

but it's actually like unlocks him once they get his back to create brioche out of nothing. Yeah. And finish off Marcus's last dish so that the Michelin Star guy who's just a guy can have like the dessert of a lifetime.

And everybody gets to basically be the best versions of themselves during that dinner. It's like the idea of having a cigarette and beer soaked outdoor party patio next to a Michel's starred tasting menu

would that work? Is there a place like that? I don't know, but that sounds pretty cool. And if there is, it would be in Chicago. And it allows the facts to be the facts. You know what I mean? Instead of asking us to be like all these guys turned into like matriads from heaven,

like they are like, no, I'm the guy who like when everything's kind of going wrong, I'm like, dude, let's go out and smoke a cigarette. You know, like that's kind of fun. And I thought that the reason why the season worked for me, even if it felt repetitive to you, like, where you're like, it's just people walking into rooms and asking each other how they're doing or, like, what did they think of what just happened five minutes ago? First of all, that's basically what offices are like.

They are very repetitive of like just going, like, hey, like, did you see that thing? And what are you going to do about this thing? Maybe that's not great television, but it did, it wasn't crazy to me that it was happening. But where the third and fourth season, especially the third, if I'm remembering correctly, had a lot of like really intense close-ups isolation. Can't really tell if this person is in the same room. Not on the, in the morning show level,

but like it's about like almost trying to get interiority by boring into people with the camera. This season got interiority by putting like people on like a stage base together. I mean, the restaurant is shot completely differently. It looks like a soundstage to me. And I thought that they got where people were at in their lives by doing rather than saying for me. Do your point about Michelin Star Dining? I think that one of the interesting moments of tension in Seven was the images of people going into the dining room and then we see their perspective and we see people enjoying themselves and celebrating.

And then that's countered with or juxtaposed with Ritchie being like, get the fuck up, get the fuck up, which is a feeling that actually doesn't really engender a nice experience in a restaurant when you were being rushed out, and the idea that like 10 minutes per course, 90 minutes, I don't know if people would walk away being like, that was really a special celebration.

But that tension was interesting even to... They might if they were like, and now do you want to go outside smoke a blood? Just blow rails with some hams. I thought, look, to use... The show itself is so drenched in food coal. and that I think it actually is appropriate to use metaphors in this case.

And I don't know if you've read or anyone listening has read some of the recent reviews of the French Laundry. Now, the French Laundry is an er text of this show. Is this what you say, the God TK? The God TK. Thomas Keller, who helped Carmi trust a chicken and a flashback that was reused liberally in this season as well. The thing about the French Laundry when it opened was that it was so quietly confident and revolutionary. and every dish felt like it came from the mind of a genius, and it was an incredibly special experience

because you traveled for it. You were up in the Napa Valley, and part of mid-course meal, you walk through the garden or you go to the kitchen, and a lot of what people in America think of as the finest of fine dining or destination dining comes from that. He then became, Thomas Keller, became a celebrity, and people would spend enormous amount of money to eat there,

and then he kind of franchised the bakery thing, and he opened, per se, in New York, which tried to give you the French laundry experience, at a mall in Columbus Circle. And recently, both per se and the French Laundry have been re-reviewed by New York Times critics and by San Francisco Chronicle critics. And they've been pretty rough,

basically being like the Salmon Cornetto is a brilliant idea, but it's also like someone showing up at, you know, freeze London. And I'm like, I've painted a Titian. Like, someone already did that. Like, this is part of our culture now and we're responding to it. and there's a freshness issue here.

So I think you were right to point out that when the show's magic was when people, these beautiful actors and these beautiful characters and this sensitive emotional camera was digging something out of the raw ingredients that we were given on the screen. And then the show kept going back,

hoping to get a similar flavor pop from those same scenes, and it was diminishing returns. I would point out the scene, Robert Townsend, who's given one of the best performances in the history of the bear in his like four or five appearances as Sydney's father, the scene where he, the two of them are at the diner in the finale, is a beautiful scene. It's completely successful and it's pure bear because it is so naturalistic and so emotional and clever and lovely and lived in. And you're like, was there a script or are they just having a good time? And you could feel at work and it still works sometimes. And then there's a scene where like Marcus, and Karmie are talking, and Marcus is just, in order to explain himself, is basically saying what I only imagine is Chris Storr or one of his writer's experience turning on the Criterion channel, watch it live the night before. Like Marcus is suddenly trying to explain himself

through the prism of some dark foreign movie he saw the night before. And I'm like, this feels phony to me. This feels staged and artificial and is trying to mine something out of very little. Everything you're saying, I appreciate and speaks to the love that I have had for the show. But I feel frustrated. Yeah, maybe I'm just a little bit sappier or maybe, you know, like Sid saying fire Brussels to Tina really like. That got you? Yeah, man. I think that like there are different examples in pop culture of things that will hit you.

And I know, for instance, that, like, you're very, like, susceptible to examples of fathers and daughters, for instance. We don't know why. Yeah. I just mentioned Robert Townsend and the devery scene. Let's talk about the conclusion of the show a little bit. Okay. One major thing from the conclusion of the show. Yeah.

I really respect Sydney packs internationally the way I pack. Yeah. We have the same opinions about one of every over-the-counter drug easily reach a little. just for confidence. And more than that, half of Xanax is really all you need. She's right. You know?

I thought that was a really good point for travel. I thought that was good too. I felt bad for, that's a long flight for Richie to be in coach at the window. He's in coach, but he's at the window

and he's got a lovely companion by his side. He's got Justin middle. Although I couldn't tell it was that a three-seater or two-seater? Run the tape. Let's go back.

You guys in Economy Plus? What did we do? Comfort Plus? I mean, I think Pellegrino could. here's the way I thought. I bet Pellegrino could have Flonem Comfort Plus, and there is a direct flight Chicago to Tokyo. But did they also invite Jess? Did he get comfort? And then he said, you know what? Instead, give me two economy seats.

Right. And in fact, one full bar of Zanax to split. Like, we're just, we're totally down to work with you on however you want to do this. Whatever you need. The conclusion is that Karmie who goes, follows through with his decision to leave the bear. Right. Um, Sid and Richie and the gang are going to continue to do the restaurant. Um, Iber's idea to franchise the beef has come through. There is a very lovely moment where he calls the character that was played by Rob Reiner and says, as you wish. I'm glad you caught that too.

Call back to Princess Bride. There's lots of little Easter eggs in there. They go fast bohito boats or go fast boats mojitos. Yeah, but there's a Wi-Fi password. There was also some cute little nods like when Dede asks if, no, it's not Didi. who asks if Sid and Karmi are in a relationship? Somebody asked Pete that and he's like, there are theories.

There are theories out there. I mean, there was a little self-awareness. And I think even their hug at the end was like, is this fucking happening? And it was just like, no, these guys just like. That's good. So the conclusion of the bear as a restaurant, I think that there is like a real obvious feel-good aspect to that.

I want to talk to you about Karmie's fate here. Wait, I have one other. question about the the restaurant. The moment when we find out the the fact that it wasn't Starman wasn't Starman that it was the guy that we all thought it was from God knows. The previous season three, season four. I don't remember this the snow night. I believe it's four. Middle of season four. I thought that was well done. I like that. I think it I think that really tracked with the heart of the show that you know that there's

something beautiful about restaurants but something that is also very tempered and fleeting, and you can't create magic, you can just move on to the next night and try it again. And so this beautiful night was not the one that will be memorialized in the review. But did you feel there was any kind of, I'll say the word, cowardice in the no, you didn't get a star, you got two.

Did you feel like that was? Yeah, because it's just like everybody, it's look under your seat, everybody gets car keys. Did you feel any of that? Or were you just in your bag about the Brussels Sprout still and you were feeling it? Like, what do you want to have happened to these people? I mean, I kind of wanted them to be like no star,

but it's like a promising review, and now you can go build this into the next one. I think that... I'm being intentionally provocative. You probably need to have some sort of validation in that. They've made the star the thing that's going to keep this place open. Right. Right.

Like, their price point is probably too high. Yep. I thought that by the end of it, colonarily, like, they arrived at a place that was, like,

the middle ground between the beef and Karmie's kind of, like, overworked stuff. It's true. So doing Coke ribs and... That's the French Montana tape

that I was telling you about. Doing, like, Cindy's mother's ribs, Tina's Brussels sprouts, you know, the banana foster banana, the Sunday that Marcus is making, like the things that these guys are all making

are, to grab a phrase from the top chef judges, they're cooking their food. They're telling their story. They're putting their heart on a plate. They are. And so I did not mind that the end of a series had a happy ending. You like, I know what did you want? Yeah, I wanted the range to be. Did you want me to be like, we got two stars, but I'm staying now.

And I'm still the boss. No, let's, this is what you wanted to ask about. So, I mean, this has been probably among, among people talking about the bears, like ending it on seven or half, in halfway through eight is an enormously satisfying thing. The birthday cake for Richie's daughter, like the whole cast gathering, heartened it, fucking zooming in, you know, like. Bob Odenkirk showing up. Odenkirk. I thought that that was really nice. Claire Bear. Yeah. And I really liked that they did not make Claire the like, I got to go see about a girl,

you know? Like, I know it was referenced of like, did you call her yet? And he was like, I'll call her tomorrow. I, I, for as much as I am, ragging on the show for its fast sprint towards emotion at all times, I thought the restraint shown in the end was very, very lovely. I really thought that that was a nice gesture. And I'm glad Karmie didn't wake up the next day and turn into fucking comic relief Robin Williams. Like, I'm glad that he's still haunted and still like not a great hang and has his issues, you know? Yeah, I thought that... Maybe almost to a point of like

its detriment where it was like, I kind of wanted a personality transplant for this character by the end and he's going into what is ostensibly a job interview at the end and talking about like his trauma. I want to talk about that and I also want to discuss we're not people to say it, but who is the bigger Chicago legend weatherman Tom Skilling or Bonnie Hunt?

TBD, we can't decide that. Malaney's coming from that crown, man. He's playing Wrigley. That's true. That is true. I don't want to leave like the cooks. I don't want to leave a bad taste in people's mouth here. Like, at its best, this show was such a brilliant and beautiful exploration of therapy,

but with drama and with professionalism and work and the realities of living in a city and being alive right now, that I thought that the place where it ended, which was a really deep sense of the things that matter go on, whether it's Marcus saying goodbye to Luca and you understand that people sometimes move in different directions but they have a bond and they will be happy to see each other again. Whether it's Claire and

fucking the, you know, the store or players minus Bree Larson just showing up for a day and the celebration being... What was your name? Is that Fannie? Francine. And that it being a celebration

for Ritchie's daughter that brings everyone out because ultimately getting together for family and lifting each other up is something. Yeah, if you find a physical space, to make everybody feel special.

It's like that's the goal of the restaurant. Yeah. Not all restaurants. No, but of life. And you get the sense that the restaurant itself could go away. You get a sense that people could come and go and leave and Carmen could leave. But they have built something that is lasting if it is tended to. And I think that that is a, that was a beautiful summation of what the show always was.

And as someone who briefly had a podcast about TV shows ending, like that needs to be celebrated. Don't sell yourself short, man. If architecture school doesn't work out, you can always come back to podcast. So all of that was wonderful. Did you specifically carmi leaving or not leaving? I think there was some confusion of the fact that he is interviewing for an internship and monologuing about his feelings. And then it is intercut with the birthday party and scenes with him back at the restaurant. So is the implication that he is back because this is still a family business and his friends are there.

Yes. But he himself is no longer chopping an news. I did not think that he was like, that interview went poorly. I'm back at the restaurant. Did you think as management that the interview went well? I don't think that,

I don't think Malaney set him up to succeed. That the Malini character being like, just share your shit. That's what's hot right now. I was like, I didn't, I don't know if that's the case. Yeah, in 2026, I don't know if that's the best way

to get a fast track internship. But I thought that the, the idea of this guy who wants to express himself through art or express he wants to find a new ally for his creative spirit I don't know anything about architecture

or what kind of apprenticeship you have to go through or if Carmen's been to college I didn't I don't think he did he's had quite an education I don't know like what you can do if you've not been to what do they say to him

what does Sydney say what skills do you have and he says none yeah not true he is a pretty good cook yeah I mean I think he could always like cook sling burgers you know like do you think that in the year

2026, franchising a sandwich shop for ghost kitchens is a mind-blowing idea when they were like, holy shit, oh my God. Did you think that was so...

You didn't... I thought that the two... I thought that the cheese computer Uncle Jimmy was a necessary like get out of the restaurant, do some... We got to have something else

aside from like only shots at the restaurant. I thought that the scene where they go to get the air rights from that lady and like there's Ray is somewhere and they're like, fuck you Ray,

that was kind of funny but like also like ultimately it was like can you imagine they got to the end of this show and they were like that's a bad idea

to Ibrahim yeah and they're like and you got no stars and the restaurant's closed and I guess we want to do birthdays are canceled. No,

no. The last thing I'll say and then I do want to make a bigger point about it is I hated the music. I think that was the other thing that took me out. I hated the Tron-ass music.

I liked it. I think it needed to relax. I thought they overdid the needle drops in three and four. And I thought I am in general pretty deaf to like cool needle drop. It has nothing to do with what's happening. You're going to love Supergirl from what I understand. But my point, like I just think that they've got, we've gotten away from like, building out emotional textures of stories

with original music because people are so drunk on like, and did you see the playlist that I made? You know, it's like, the bearers, the official bear playlist on Spotify is awesome. I listen to it all the time. It's a great collection of music.

I thought they relied too heavily on three and four, and I thought getting out of the way and having a, albeit reminiscent of social network or Manhunter or thief or whatever, was cool. It got out of the way of the characters and let them do the storytelling.

I think that overall, this is one of the most significant shows of our professional covering TV existence. I think that at its peak, it was the most electric experience you could hope for. It was fresh, it was bold, it was thrilling,

it was so ambitious. And also, I think in terms of just the uniqueness, I was dinging it for this last week, but I do think that the spirit of the show, I mean, the shows always take on the characteristics and the character of the people in charge of the shows. That is something that you can honestly say after working behind the scenes of some things

for good or for ill. And the spirit of the show being one of found family and inclusiveness being celebrated by Chris and his colleagues, including like his real-life partner, Gillian Jacobs, who's on the show and good friends and people have become close friends is a beautiful thing, especially in this fallen,

soon-to-be-a-I apocalypse that we all live in. But I do think that in many ways, the legacy of the show is the other side of the praise that we'd given it for a long time, which is when premiered and we were like,

wow, this came out of nowhere, has been in our life consistent, will be consistent in our life every year, hit its deadlines, show up, make stars out of actors, not the other way around. and kind of go on too long and frustrate,

that's a legacy, that's a classic television legacy that one can be proud of, honestly, and one that we don't get enough of. We don't get a lot of these days. When things arrive now, everything is so bespoke and crafted and labored over and then years in between

that we rarely just have this specific experience where you get something, it is wonderful, and then there's some bumps on the way. Yeah. But it stays true to itself. It's pretty rare. I mean, like, it was more common

probably when we started doing this podcast, you know, where we were like, damn, Homeland Season 5. That was the Showtime model of like, wow. But I, this is one where I don't really have an intellectual argument against you. I'm just like, meant a lot to me,

made me feel things. Yeah. I don't think the last, couple of seasons were on the level of the first two seasons, but I thought in some, there were large stretches of three where I thought the filmmaking was breathtaking. I thought the filmmaking generally and across the board was top of its class. Yeah. And at the conclusion of it really was like very cathartive for me in a way that I did not expect

for it to happen. So it is 47 episodes they made, which is shocking. Unbelievable. Since 2022. Do you want to talk briefly about Star City before we get out of here? Yeah, if you have the time. I just want to say, one thing that's sort of an odd thing to lead with with this show.

And I hate to say it. Okay. Because I want to bring Hollywood back, whoever the mayor is. Doesn't matter. And whoever in this room supports whichever mayoral candidate, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know who still might be writing in some of the people who we thought were have fallen off the ballot.

Where did they shoot this? Vilnius Lithuania. Got some really good extras in Lithuania. Do you ever lose the narrative thread thinking about how every extra on screen most of them don't understand what's being said in the scene because they don't speak English. Irina, Arena, is following the American agent to the buses.

Yeah, a lot of faces. And they're walking all through what's supposed to be Moscow, a little bit confused about how far Star City is from Moscow because it seems like people are making multiple trips per day. It's kind of like where I live to the Sycamore Studios, you know? Like, I complain about it, but I can get there. Yeah, but you don't have to like get cleared in security in multiple places.

Honestly, L-A-F-D is stopping me. She's following the American agent through Moscow and then through the bus station and onto the bus and different buses. There's a vibrancy and a life to that that I was like, did we forget how to make shit like this? I understand that those people may have gotten paid like two roubles and I don't want to. Yes. Not the currency of Lithuania, but I think I take your point. For now. Not funny.

Not funny. I just think that that's the kind of. thing where I would be like, that's a pretty normal people shadowing one another in spy stories. Like we see that all the time. Popped off the screen, as did obviously the last 15 minutes, which were extraordinary. To your point. Spoilers for episode five? Six.

Five, six? Six. Yeah. To your point. What we appreciate in filmmaking wherever it is shot is anything that takes advantage of, maximizes, celebrates. where it's being shot. Location shooting is a crucial part of compelling filmmaking.

That's like 101. Like it's a super basic comment. But we don't have as much of it as we would like because it is incredibly expensive. You know, when you are making a TV production, one of the first things they say are, what are your standing sets? What can we reuse?

What can we amortize from season to season should the show get renewed? And then maybe if you've made sure you're going to use these sets for your five or six days, maybe you get two days on location. And so you're limited in the beginning. And then you're even more limited if budgetarily you are in an more expensive place. Yes.

Where you have, you know, the ruble doesn't go as far as it does. There are unions, labor. Which are good. Unions traditionally very big in that part of the world, though. Very good point. Should we delve into that? How many cans of tuna did you pack for that conversation? I don't think it is a blow against Minister John Void's campaign to bring filming back to Los Angeles to say that it looks

really good. Yeah, I would rather just not be shot in North Hollywood. It looks really good where it is. So that that is incredible. And I think that the texture adds so much in every scene and not just on location, but the production design. Because there are moments, I am not, I am loving this show. But like there are sometimes when like Roscova and chief designer are having the same argument, I'm like, oh, that's a different color tope in the background. It's electrifying. And if I pause and rewatch it and they're just saying the same things, maybe it wouldn't be as rich of an experience. The other thing that I hit my head against on this episode that I think it's worth

a longer conversation and maybe with the creators. Yes. When Anna Maxwell Martin in this episode does her thing. This is what I, yeah, I think we want to say the same thing. At one point, she goes, sort it out! Very good. And I'm like, that's a British lady. Did you just figure that out?

No, but it felt culturally British. Right. And I have, I wonder whether or not there are any, there are people out there who feel like there's something lacking from like a quintessentially Russian soul here. Like there is something almost like we are writing in the idiom or in the voice of like a certain kind of British. First of all, I think you're getting confused because that is also what I shouted at the sports bar on Sunday, on Saturday. when England couldn't put it in the back of the net against Panama in the first half. That's right. So maybe that's-

You hate a low block. That's partly confusing. I think that I look forward to, if we do get the chance to talk to those guys who made the show, there is both an appreciation for the detail of the Soviet bloc, but also there is a very convenient monster. I mean, chief designer calls her a monster in the sense that, like, I am no scholar of the Soviet space program. But the degree to which this one woman is empowered to end the lives and the billion

rubble investment in a mission to Venus because of what it may mean for the security apparatus in her career is wild. It is excellent for the story because every episode pushes all, everything into the center of the table in a way that I admire. Every decision that gets made by a character on this show immediately winds up affecting the next decision somebody makes. Immediately. No hand-holding.

like this is a secret mission, so it's not going to be on TV and nobody's going to know we did it. And her being like, hence why I can fucking kill these people. Yes. And we can just be like they died in a training accident in Siberia. Like there is consequences to every action. And that's why it's such compelling television. And I don't mind that it's an hour and five minutes. Like I'm like, oh my God.

And now like he told Anastasia. She knows. It's like everything kind of like is building towards this tension that I think is masterfully woven together. I don't remember for all mankind feeling like this, but maybe I'm wrong. And I do wonder where the specter of the for all mankind storytelling will kick in. One of the things that might be giving us all this pleasure in terms of like, wow, I can't believe how fast they're moving, however they're running right at every problem, might be because Star City season two, which I think is not an impossibility, will pick up in the late 70s.

Possibly. Like this might be our, it may do time jumps in the same way, which we may have mixed feelings about because they have found so much fertile soil here. or is the fact that we're responding to it to this degree because they are not letting the grass grow beneath their feet, as they say. Sure. Possibly in Russia, I really couldn't tell you. But the end was, the end of this episode is nuts.

I mean, it is, I don't know if anyone listening this deep into the podcast, even into this deep into this segment, are still on the fence about Star City. But if I were to tell you that the sixth episode of the first season of a show ends with a KGB security official demanding the pressure be cut on a manned space mission to Venus? That is so metal.

Honestly, I didn't even know you could do that from the ground. Here's my real question. Is there really no tape delay? I don't know. Do you know what I mean? They got some strong radios. I want to be clear about something

and I'm sorry to make this personal for a moment, but, you know, thanks to our good friend and colleague Sarah here, we were able to live stream on a private YouTube link my daughter's bat mitzvah to my parents back in Philadelphia. This is 2026. This is the YouTube Google Corporation.

And that took, there was a two and a half minute delay. Yeah. Because my daughter was swearing a lot. Maybe like the idea is that the Kremlin is invested in the space program. I got to wrap it up there. So you don't, okay. Because I do think it would be a much longer watch if they were like, open the hatch.

No. And then a day and a half fast. I'm happy that they have like crystal clear like nextel chirp with these guys. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back on next Monday. everybody enjoy your fourth. There will be and Andy Greenwald

will publicize. You might as well. You've given me some songs. I'm adding my songs. We make our annual playlist. I don't tend to publicize things that take place on other people's Spotify profiles.

That's like I have my own. No, I'm just kidding. Of course I'm going to do that. We have our annual barbecue playlist which I only found out

last year was to be played at a barbecue. So I just thought it was cool songs. But apparently it's not, nobody wants to listen to post hardcore while grilling. You do.

This can be, this is like a window into your experience. But I sent you some some real cool dad rock. I will say there has never been an ice age.

Yeah, what? It will be so clear who contributed which songs. And I think people have a good time. We'll send that out on our various social feeds

including the watchpot underscore Instagram. Everybody have a great weekend. We did it America. We did it.