The Watch - ‘The Bear’ Creator Christopher Storer on the Making of Season 2. Plus, the Simple Pleasure of ‘Hijack.'

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the news that ‘Reservation Dogs’ will end after Season 3 (1:00), and the first episode of the new Idris Elba show ‘Hijack’ (11:56). Then, they are joined by ‘The Bear’ creator Christopher Storer to talk about casting the show (29:02), and why they wanted to slow down the pace of the story for Season 2 (1:07:04). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Christopher Storer Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. It's just a MySpace guy and a threads world. It's Andy Greenwald! How dare you? How dare you? No, I mean, you, MySpace was your real platform.

That was your real, that was your bullhorn. Disagree. Friendster. Oh, yeah. I did my, I've said this before. I think the best writing I ever did was in testimonials for people on Friendster. Did you ever write me one? I'm sure I did.

Yeah. Too bad, that's lost time. Greenwald, great to see you. What a special show today, because Christopher Storer, the creator, director, guy behind the bear is joining us on the show today.

So we're going to have a nice long chat with him. Before we get there, there's always stuff happening in the world of pop culture that needs just your very specific eye and voice. Just mine? What do you just setting up today? I like to be your OC.

You know what I mean? I put you in space. I let you make plays, get some yak. But- You're making a, sound like you're the T ball. You know, like you're the T for me to hit the ball. No, no, no, no. I'm Kyle Shanahan. Oh, so you get it most of the way there and then you kind of, you know,

like, you know. Okay. You work with that. How are you doing, man? It's good to see you. Was your weekend nice? Lovely. Beautiful, beautiful holiday weekend that was basically like two weeks because it was a Tuesday. Right. So it still felt like a holiday weekend. Right. Right. I mean this past weekend, this past weekend, this past weekend was it a holiday. It felt like one still. Okay. Just making sure I didn't skip a holiday. Everyone in this studio knows that the because my kids didn't have camp, so I was... Oh, yeah. I was...

Oh, oh. Is that out of office? Yes. I was just ooh with them for like five days. Ooh, parenting. It was very fun. I feel the need to bring... Yeah.

The positive vibes today. And Chris will help us because he made the show of the year so far. So until Special Ops Lioness comes out, he has that belt. But I feel the need to be positive because I do feel like we were a little bit... depressing on Thursday. Oh, and I have a few more things coming off of that, as you know. Okay. Do you want me to do that before you get positive?

Let's, oh, do you want to continue to be negative and then we go positive? No, my thing, you're going to love this. This is, what's like there's a zig and there's a zag and then what comes after that? I don't know. We need to, you know, there's an idea. Yeah, there's me. I want to go one step past that because I do feel like, you know, I, sometimes, sometimes the reply guy squawking reaches me in my ivory tower.

And I feel like there were two things that were misunderstanding. box that you go into. What's the box they build for phones for like when they're doing like the Faraday cage? Yeah. That's what you live in. Yeah, but it's more of an ADU. Just doing 100% parenting. Just pure. Liquid parenting. That's when you have a little bit to drink and parent. Yeah, I think there were two things that were misunderstood because I did say I believe and I don't have the tape. Maybe Kai can run it back. I believe I did say fuck brands. Yeah. I wasn't saying that I hate capitalism. because I love commercials, both in the sense that they keep our podcast afloat, but also they probably are what will save television. Sure. What I feel like people didn't understand is this was what you actually introduced this idea.

We are not fans of the Mattel Toy Corporation and everything that they do. Yeah, right. Like, I enjoy a product. I don't want the expanded cinematic universe of Thomas's English muffins. My sneakers don't need a soul. No. Well, actually, they do. Well, yeah, okay.

Because that's a part of a shoe. Nice pun. But like they just, I don't need to know the values. That was the one thing that I wanted to clarify. The other thing is, I think people are like, oh, typical Gen X grumbling that things used to be better and fair. You know what you subscribe to when you signed up for this podcast. But my point about people deserving better choices and I think wanting different things than what they're being served, to my mind is an optimistic point. Because I do think that quality material or more original material could find. an audience if the system was set up to support it. And I would rather people optimistically be trying to make mass culture entertainment that is good, rather than using their problem-solving brains to do that, rather than using the problem-solving brains to turn Yatsy into a Blumhouse-inspired horror movie. Sure. I mean, I think that also when you come out of a conversation like the one we had last Thursday,

and for anybody who didn't listen and is like, what the fuck are these guys talking about, we basically were bemoaning the state of televised and projected narrative culture. And it was coming out of an article that was in The New Yorker about Barbie, which apparently people love and is on track to make $95 million and is going to be this giant success story. And it's actually like, that's great. That is great. I think the Verizon tie will lift boats and I think Oppenheimer will do well. Does Skipper have a boat set?

Is that what you meant? No. And then there's also like, as soon as that podcast was basically over, I see. saw two movies in successive nights that wound up being two of my favorite movies here. I saw Asteroid City on Friday. Nice. And I saw How to Blow Up a Pipeline on Saturday, which was truly a mind-blowing movie. Like, just how well-made it was is just so, it's so accomplished and is so free of so much of the bullshit that comes along with movies right now.

So, like, everywhere you look, there's reasons to be hopeful. I think it was more there is, like, it's hard to be, it's hard to, like, find enough places to look. There's good stuff. There will be good stuff. They're talented people. The story of the state of the industry is only valid until the next thing comes out. It can change completely and it can turn on a dime. I just think that through consolidation and through just the state of the economy and things, we're just are not, we're not getting the best choices. We're not getting the best opportunities to see things that are good. The bear is a good example. It is a good thing to be talking more about this week because the bear is good. It is objective. Objectively and subjectively and qualitatively, it is good and it is a hit. And I think that's interesting.

And I think that's significant. And I think it matters. And I don't think all is lost, but I do think that we are losing a lot with the hyper focus on really telling the narrative story of brands. I get why they're doing it, but we deserve better. Another thing that will give us a ray of hope, although a little bit bittersweet, is reservation dogs, which comes back in early August, I believe. August 1st, August 1st, and the trailer for that

dropped a couple of days ago or last week, but it was also announced that it would be its final season. Sterling Harjo put out a statement where he was just like, I feel like I've said what I wanted to say with this show

when we wrote the end of season three, we felt like we had really arrived at the place where the show should end. I feel like we've kind of attacked and broken down pre-ending announcements in every single way, probably coming off of succession. this was like a major talking point

as to whether or not it needed to end there or had to end there or what happened in the show because it was ending but for reservation dogs I completely see where he's coming from this show could go on for 10 years it's fine that it's ending after 3

I think he's got the story he wants to tell about this specific group of people and I can't wait for it to come back I'm going to disagree with you I'm furious well you're a consumer I am actually furious about this one. And I mean this with a great deal of respect for Sterling Harjo and his creative choices.

And everything you're saying is accurate and true. But this is the one that has really stuck in my craw. To a surprising degree. Because, as we've said for the last two years, now going on three years, this is one of the top three best shows on television consistently. It is also the most incredible vessel to tell almost any kind of story. and I adore it for that. And I'm just really frustrated that it's not going to keep going.

For 10 years, I don't know, but for more years. You know, it did not feel as tied to a narrative anchor as something like Succession, which I think, though it was also bittersweet, we said multiple times that it could start to get a little billionsy if it kept going. And we understand the desire not to keep going. I also think that if you read between the lines of the press, statements that it's clear that Sterling Hardjo is going to continue to do what he has been doing even before the larger national spotlight was on him, which is to tell really fascinating, really funny,

really compelling native stories in a variety of mediums with a lot of the same crew and community and actors and sometimes even people playing the same part. So I have a feeling that the Res Dog's expanded universe will continue to expand. But it was bracing to watch this trailer. And it feels like a different show in the sense that suddenly it is about the end. The end. And about these four kids bringing to finding closure in their emotional

arc that spun out from their friend Daniel's death. I think that it's interesting that we're talking to Chris today because I've been thinking about this with the bear a lot with the sustainability of certain shows. You talked about narrative sustainability in terms of succession, but there's also a tonal sustainability and for the bear, it's obviously that intensity,

which I think they made some inroads into releasing some pressure in various places in the show, like over the course of the second season, although, you know, obviously episode six would suggest otherwise. But for the most part, I think that they found some like other notes to play other than all the atoms in my body are exploding at once when this ticket machine is pumping out orders. And you wonder how much longer, not only can they do it physically,

but also can those characters be in that state because that's not really how life always works. And I think for reservation dogs, you could have told a never-ending story about life in this place and loosely about these people, but it seems like the story that Sterling wants to tell is about these kids who are stuck in between

childhood and adulthood and dealing with grief sincerely for the first time in their lives. in a lot of ways and how they move on from that. And then this season will be the capstone on that story. And about staying or going. Yeah. And I think one of the things the show does so well is communicate that this is a place where these characters live, this community has been there.

And there's a reason why they've been there. And there's these old connections and old relationships, some that have curdled and some that continue to blossom. And that's still a fount for stories for him. But also, you know, he's a filmmaker. It's also probably hard because those kids are growing up. Yes. And have other opportunities.

And he doesn't want to stand in the way of that. And this is also relevant to Chris Storrh from the bear, not just because of the FX connection, but Chris and Sterling are both writer-directors and filmmakers. And that is a powerful itch to do different things. So I'm not genuinely angry at him, I hope. And I'm not just saying this because I hope he'll come back on the podcast for a third time. It's also just that, man, I am upset.

I love that show. And I want more. So we really did this whole, like, the Ruf is on Fire thing. skies falling on Thursday. And you can take what we talked about on Thursday and be like, well, the only things that make these guys happy are these relatively niche arty shows, right? The bear reservation dogs, whatever.

I mean, the bear is successful, but you know what I mean? I just want to let people know that other things can scratch our hitch. Other things can make us happy. And one of those things is Idris Elba negotiating with hijackers on a plane from Dubai to London. And they called the show hijack.

Great title. And it stars Idraselba, and he's a negotiator who happens to be on a plane that gets hijacked, and he negotiates with them. And it's pretty good. It's on Apple TV, by the way.

You kind of feel like the people created the show, spent, got six months money to do pre-production, and they just bought a copy of Rick Rubin's book. Because they were like, No, no, we told you the show when you bought it. Idris Elba's on a plane.

Yeah. The complete lack of anything else going on is pure. Yeah. And I appreciate it so much. There are a couple faces that I think I recognize in the ensemble cast, but broadly, I don't know anyone. There's like an Andor guy as the pilot. That's the guy I recognize. Yes.

That's Monmothma's husband, right? No, her ex-boyfriend from childhood, who's like also the revolution. Okay, thank you for that. I wondered. But otherwise, nope, don't know. That's fine. It's what it says on the package. Just open and enjoy. And I mean, I only watch one. I think so. They're dropping these every week and there's six. I think there's six or seven. Yeah. And there's like an element of real timeness to it, I think. But I found this show to be like basically the Apple version, aka more expensive and higher. production value maybe, version of really reliable ABC or Fox thrillers from the earlier part of the century. Where you're just like, God damn,

24, early 24 is really good. Or like this show on ABC, like not graze or something like that, but it's just like it has real network sensibilities and in its broad appeal, but also has like a certain, like, it looks like that plane set costs a pretty penny, you know? Yeah.

Apple's budget remains Apple's budget, but it's interesting the way you're saying, because this could be so many different things. This used to be a movie. In fact, this has been a movie multiple times. Passenger 57 and executive decision. Air Force one. Yes, this has been done. And even that makes sense for television because what is successful television,

if not just the sort of like the simulacrum shape of entertainments we've felt before? Like we know what's coming. It's called hijack. Yeah. So you don't watch the first half hour being like, hope he gets home to London quickly. You know. Yeah. That's fine. It's so funny because the pilots just like clear skies as we fly from Dubai to Heathrow. There'll be no problems whatsoever. I also think that to talk about the show kind of does run counter to a lot of what I generally

talk about on the podcast or what I want because the things that sets apart, the thing that sets apart a lot of the programs that we love, like Res Dogs, like the Bear, is you can really feel the soul in the machine. There's someone making a decision or someone with a particular aesthetic that is bringing something, whether it's a song on the soundtrack or a quirk in the performance

or just a character beat. It's like, oh, someone added that and fought to keep it in there. There's none of that here that I can tell whatsoever. And I'm not mad about it. Except for one thing. Well, because I did want to point out that the opening theme

and credits thing, I feel like AI is already in Hollywood, because I just can't believe anyone was like, that song rules. Well, it's just like a slow jazz ballad, right? Well, that's, no, when it starts, there's a little bit of like R&B playing, but I mean the hijack theme song, which is a real song. I'm just like, so all the filmmakers got together with Apple's budget, and they were like, nailed it.

This is middle of the road thing is what we want. But that's fine. I mean, the people behind it are newbies. Like this guy, Jim Field Smith, who directed it and is the creative partners with George Kaye, who wrote it. he made a show I loved a few years ago called The Wrong Man's that James Corden made before he started his late night show

they've worked on a lot of different they're professionals yeah yeah but you had sorry you had a quirk that you wanted to point out it's not really a quirk it's just a one of one it's it's a Druselva it's like it is you know we talk so much about stardom especially on the big picture where we're like trying to like basically

like catalog what is it that makes Tom Cruise running different than this person running or what is it that makes Julia Roberts laughing different than this person laughing or what is it that this person has that 99.9% of the people in the world don't have. And it's really, really, really difficult to describe. If you could describe it, then you could reverse engineer it, right? But you could take a thousand different actors and put them in this role and it would be maybe fine, but it wouldn't have been as good. It wouldn't have been as why is Idrisel walking so slow as he approaches the gate? Yeah.

Like, why does he seem this? Why does he seem that? When he gets up, like he seems like this. and he has now kind of grown into, I think he's had this for a while, but he has definitely grown into his middle-aged looks and his haggardness a little bit more because he was, you know,

I've read a couple of interviews with him where he's just like, I've aged out of bond and also that whole discourse left a really bad taste in my mouth, but he's like, I don't want to do that. But he kind of has a later middle-aged, I'm tired vibe that I think really, really works for him. It's a Harrison Ford thing. It's a Liam Neeson thing. Those guys are obviously much

older, but the like the getting too old for this shit. But by the way, I can still handle this shit. A little bit of bags on the eyes. A little bit of like moving slower than I used to. Did you Google how old he was when you watched the show? I did. How old? How old do you think? What's your guess? 54. 50 years young. So he was 49 when he filmed this. So he's not that much older than your humble narrators. I didn't say that we weren't. Maybe that's what I'm responding to is I finally feel seen on screen. That's what I bring. When I'm on a plane, that's my energy, too. I got to say, though, I will pretty much watch anything sit in an airport or an airplane.

Because there really may be no other environment that I have more opinions about. So just the first half hour of this show is essentially boarding. And you might think that that would be boring. Listener, I found that to be the most fascinating half hour television I've seen this year, where it's just like, interesting. having a little debate about whether overhead baggage compartments are the property of the community or the individual. Yeah. You know? Yes. Also, um, whether or not people with children matter more than people without, you know? This will surprise no one that, and I don't think this is really a spoiler,

but one of the things that happens early on is, as you mentioned, Idris is a very casual flyer. No luggage just saunteres onto the plane in the last possible second. And then one of his fellow passengers, who I'm sure is just another innocent person on the plane, doesn't make it in time. Yeah. arrives just as the this plane has boarded whatever. It's literally like a fake rope that she puts up. And she's like, I've put the rope up. I'm sorry, sir. And Idris is like, come on, who's it going to harm?

You're like, thank you, McBain. But it will surprise no one to hear that if I had been in that situation, I would have been like ma'am rules or rules. They're here for a reason. Oh, you don't like anybody boarding late like that? I got to, I mean, like, I don't know about you. I'm a real like hovering around the, the gate. I'm ready to get on.

I cosplay as a military person to get on first. Like, I do not dally. I want everything, I want everything run ship shape. You know what I mean? I want everyone following all the rules. Because if the plane somehow gets delayed on the ground, not that that would ever happen in the United States of America. Definitely not. It's not going to make me feel more or less anxious

because I was on the plane for an extra 20 minutes because I lined up like as soon as I could. but if I get on the plane last and I'm stepping over people, the overhead bins are all taken, yada, yada. Like, I'm pretty uptight. Also, everyone's coming up to you, tears in their eyes, sir.

Your appearance on the Bill Simmons podcast last week was... Sir, sir. I wanted to tell everybody that I love the idol, but I was scared until I heard you. You showed leadership. I also know that for narrative purposes, when you have a large airplane and there's over 200 people on it,

you cannot humanize everyone. And the people you humanize tend to be very broad strokes. But if maybe hijack season three, we just learn more about everybody. Vitalees? That worked out great. Exactly. I think, but the reason I say that is because it excuses the very broad strokes

people that it does show, like the kind of the harried mom or the whatever. It also does excuse the fact that I don't care how many stock footage shots you have of three people being a little concerned about the guns waving around. Like, this is an inaccurate representation of people in 2023 flying and then being hijacked. Right.

It would not be that chill. It's not that it's chill. Well, first of all, personally, I was a little bit surprised because I was like, from my experience in Air Force One and other movies. From your experience in the Air Force.

Guns on a plane are really nerve-wracking because if one bullet hits a window, the entire thing depressurizes. So the idea that they've all got guns is pretty nerve-wracking. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that.

Do you think... But then again, I don't really know how you take over a plain, like strong language. You know what I mean? Well, you wouldn't be a hijacker. I would never suggest that. But there are a couple tough boys. I would just be like, nobody wants to go to jail tonight, right? I don't...

See, that's my question. I thought that you would be like, we rush them from behind. No. I'm not doing that. That wouldn't be you. No, I would probably try to talk them out of it. I'd be like, what do you guys? Whiteboard, Dream big, blue sky.

What do you guys need? You're like Ennis and Diehard. Like just in word and deed. Hans, Bobby. You're just ingratiating yourself to the people. I would say that. I would be lying about all my close personal relationships with people. Like the pilot is a bud.

He's a bro. Okay? you want to go play we can go play we can go play RIV when we land in Los Angeles I promise if it had been a bumpy

assent I don't think there would be any visual difference in me like whether it's just like a little turbulence and then a hijacking I think I would be the same

that's how you feel I'd be the same guy yeah but look all of this is to say yeah this is fine do this make stuff like this this is fine there should be a middle brow

like that is entertaining that ticks boxes I'm enjoying it unless you do think Apple is just churning out mass entertainment for the biggest common denominator. You also saw another show that is only made for you. Yeah. And this is really, this wasn't to call you out, but I, this is all, like to put you on the spot because I don't think you've taken the plunge either into the drops of God.

No. But the only drops of God I recognize are the righteous gemstones. Fair. And I'm behind. So I'm going to catch up on that. Instead of catching up, I'm too behind. I watched this show. that we talked about on the podcast six months ago

where I was like, thank you Hollywood for making the third episode of Gemstones? No, I was only in the first. Goggins? I've not seen them. And I mentioned it, and then, I don't know, it was almost, I felt like almost self-conscious that there was a show that was just for me.

And I didn't watch it, and now I have, and I'm going to continue. I'm just putting you on alert. Okay. I'm going to watch the show. This is an Apple, it's an international co-production. It is based on a Japanese manga. It is a French-Japanese,

copro. And it is about, I wish I could just bottle your face right now and just share it with her listeners. I know what it's about. I'm just letting you get to your bit. No, so it's about the daughter of the world's greatest wine expert and connoisseur, who's a Frenchman. She's a French woman. And he, you know, sort of traumatized her in childhood by making her a supertaster and like his strong opinions about things. And he abandoned the family, went to Tokyo, wrote all these books, amassed the world's greatest collection of wine. He made her a super taster, had very strong opinions, and then abandoned her and moved to Tokyo. So are you suggesting this is a potential path for me if camp doesn't start again soon? That's it. Frankly, I have no follow-up. Guilty. And in Tokyo, he had like a protege, a student, a young Japanese man who's also, I guess, an exceptional taster of wine, and the father passes away. And then his will is a taste test, basically, like challenging his daughter with whom he's. he had no contact and this young Japanese man to basically identify. They have two months to identify one wine. That's my actually my biggest regret about not having kids.

It's just fucking with them from the afterlife. We're not having a will. And just being like, guess what, motherfucker's squid game time? You know what I mean? Well, you could still do it with your friends. Yeah, but they're not going to participate. You're going to be, like, let's say I die at like 64. Okay.

Okay. You're not going to, at 64, are you going to do Squid Game to get like my collection of Larry McMurtry novel? I could be 65 at that point. It's true. So no, and Idris Elbow will only be 69, and he'll still be making these movies. So he'll win. That's how you do it. You would have it be like, to you, my friend, Andy, my other friend, Sean Fennessee, and you, Idris Elba.

Yeah, Daniel DeLewis. To you, I leave. Compete amongst yourselves. All the Google Docs of my preparation for the rewatchables. All the remaining Nicorette lozenges in my possession. Anyway, the first episode is kind of humorless, but also it's about wine tasting in Tokyo, so I'm in. And thank you, Apple, for making these things. I still, there you go.

I still, what a great brand. Still a brand friendly guy on there. I just, you know, you know me, like I wish that there was, it's so stratified that like, would it be fun to see a slightly more creative attempt to make a hijack with a little more humor or something or a drops of God with a little self-awareness? Sure, those would be great. Could there be a little bit more squid game in drops of God? I think there might be some. Oh yeah? Well, the thing that I didn't mention that the pilot is that the daughter, as a child, like, he was like, he was doing the top chef quickfire thing where like blindfolds her and then it's just like gives her a little taste

of things and she's like melon but French, like moss. Like he's feeding his daughter moss. Okay. Which seems cool. And but then as an adult, not only does she not drink, she, if she tastes alcohol, she has like a synesthesia, like she explodes in color and her nose starts bleeding. Really? Yeah. It's pretty hype. Okay. You're talking me into it.

Until I said that her nose starts bleeding, you were uninterested. Well, I think this will be a show that I check out. It also does have, you mentioned Squid Game, that one of my favorite genres is interesting and worthwhile shows filming in Asia that also need to find actors. who can speak English. Because this show is in three languages, but a lot of it is in English because that's the common language. Yeah.

And no disrespect to this guy. No, it's like Tokyo Vice too. It's like... This one thing might be a genius actor in his native Italian. And he's like the dad's friend who picks her up from the airport. And like, but he does,

has to do all of his acting in English with this French woman. He's, he was your father, but he was a good friend. Now, please enjoy this Spanish Rioja. Should we break here? and do have Chris come on? Kai, how long have we been talking?

Because I think this is... We're about to hit 30. Frankly, so this is what a podcast could be. This is what it's all, but it's the internal shot clock. That was amazing, first of all. But also, we've watched some television. We did a little banter. We talked to a couple, you know, state of the industry stuff and done in 30.

Yeah. Maybe... Is this what we should have been doing the whole time? What do you think we usually do? 70? No, I know, but then he's going to come in and he'll talk for 40 minutes and it will be 70. We think he's going to talk for 40. Yeah, what if he's just like a minute out?

This is the junket. It's possible. Yeah. All right. Christopher Storer is up next. It's going to be exciting. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

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That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in.

Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Andy and I are so happy to be joined by Chris Torr,

the creator of the bear, director of many of the episodes. He also reinvented the Scotlick remix of R&M's strange currencies. As he cracks open. An ice cold. No, make yourself comfortable refresh yourself. Listen, we like your TV show, but you saved REM. So you are very welcome in the studio.

That's very, very nice. Thanks for having me, guys. This is great. That Scott Lut remix, though, is awesome. It's a real real heads no kind of cut. You know what I mean? We're going to get into the music of the show. But Andy, you wanted to start.

Obviously, we want to talk about season two of the bear, which we adored. But I kind of wanted to start by going backwards a bit. Because the impression that we have, and correct me if I'm wrong, was that the production, post-production, and release of series of series, season one was kind of like what Karmie and the crew just went through in the sense that you had an almost impossible deadline that you made it and then

it was an enormous success. And I kind of wonder if your issue a year ago when all this was going down wasn't too dissimilar from what season three of the show might bring in that like you did it once and how the hell are you going to do it again? So it's July, you did do it again. Season two is incredible.

Thanks. Going back to that time a year and a half ago or so, how did you approach the second season of the show? because you had the added weight of expectations, and I don't think you had any extra time. They still wanted you to hit like an old-fashioned TV show. They wanted you to be on the air again.

So how were you so prepared to make the show that you ended up making? The whole thing's pretty wild because I think the one plus of all of it was that FX very smartly kind of made us flesh out what the world sort of was. And obviously, I think, in any show that you're starting off, that's a key step. But I think Joanna and I found that, we were able to put together what we thought were like, oh, this is probably what one, two, and three would look like as like a roadmap of where we were going.

And it's funny because when we were shooting the pilot, I think everyone at FX was like, this is kind of nuts, but we see that it's cool and you're sort of thrown into this world. And we shot that, I think, in the summer of 2021. So it was still, like COVID was still really in the middle. And I think it was interesting because I think on season two, we were sort of like, oh, that was the first time we saw that person with their mask off or got to really like hang out with them.

Because that bubble was obviously pretty protective. And I think one, we were making it. It felt fun and alive. And like, Maddie and I would always say, like, we think this is really cool. But I think we had both been a part of shows or movies that we really loved and no one saw. This is Maddie Matheson. Yeah. And I think we were like, I do think somebody will find that.

this and think it's cool. And I think once we finally got picked up and I think, let's see, we started shooting February 28th of 2022 and then it was on June 23rd. That's the thing that I feel like people cannot comprehend. Well, you know what's weird, man, is that it was actually kind of the best thing that happened because it just removes second guessing and it does feel like you're running a restaurant. Yeah. But it also put a lot of pressure, I think, on our cast to really like step up and I think you know you ask like what's how's it feel like going this with expectations and everything and it's like I genuinely feel like I wish I could take more credit I think 95% of what people like about the show is the chemistry with the cast and I think it's because they are such

wonderful I mean they're the best dude and I love them all so much and I think even casting it was a trip because you know a majority of them were my dear friends in real life so it was like I love them and they kind of love each other. So I feel like you'll feel that on screen a little bit. So you knew a lot of the cast. Yeah, I think it was interesting. The first two people that were cast were I-O and Lionel. And like Jeremy was always going to, we always wanted Jeremy,

but it was that weird period where he was coming off shameless and we didn't know if that was going to go again. Yeah, I remember talking to him after season one. He was like, I didn't know if I wanted to do another show. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's interesting to think about that he spent, you know, 13 seasons on a show, which now seems unheard of. So when we finally got that, it was like those three were together

and like Liza, my girlfriend had worked with previously. And so like all these things dialed. Like the true X factor was Eben. Like Richie was the hardest person to cast because it's so specific. And I'll never forget, like, we did a chemistry read with Eben and Jeremy. And I think Eben was in the middle of shooting Andor, but like couldn't talk about what he was doing. But he had some cool tattoos. Well, no, he looked.

I mean, it was so interesting. He had Gritos blastered. Yeah, like we saw, he, the first time I saw Eben do this, he was in some sort of like, shanty in a part of the world that was not immediately identifiable. Yeah, Burbank. No. No, but like literally like, it was like mountains behind you. No, yeah.

We were like, where? And I'm like, this dude is inherently the guy, like already, like he's got it. And then their chemistry was just great, but he was also wearing like a tank top and just came at it 100 miles per hour. And it sort of made Jeremy bounce back at him and they instantly felt like brother. So it was a real trip to do that. And then I think when we were shooting it, the schedule. really informed, I think, the fast pace of the show. Yeah.

Because one of the things that was really great, like our crew also doesn't get enough credit for being incredible. Like, they really are. I mean, everyone from our camera department to our art department, to our makeup, props, everybody. And we were able to keep the same schedule every day, which was essentially, like, shoot all the scenes from, like, 7 a.m. to 3.30.

And then 3.30 to 5.30 was, like, the food inserts, which is always kind of the thing that... sucks. You know, like, and it's amazing to have, like, my sister and Maddie

on hand to sort of handle that with the props. And they, like, do the omelet and do the chips and stuff like that. Well, Iyo did the omelet. Okay. Wow. And that was, like,

pretty cool because I think she, she worked really hard on it. It's, and it's like, you know, it's like sort of, there's a lot of loving references to all of our chef friends in the show.

And that one in particular was kind of like a riff on Ludo's omelet and Petitouat and who, you know, was great to my sister. And your sister, Courtney, who's a great cook in her own, right, and chef at John and Vinny's.

And one of our producers, yeah. And I think she was able to sort of be like, okay, we wanted to do this. And how would Sydney sort of personalize that? And it's one thing to make that, like, when you're in my sister's kitchen. But then when there's like a hundred crew people, like, looking at you. So I had a lot of pressure on her. She nailed it, dude. So Andy was asking you about expectations.

And I have something that kind of goes along with that, which is really about when a TV show goes from being, you know, something in your head and something that's shared among the crew and cast that you're making it to almost like a kind of more public ownership. And I've compared the bear a couple of times to Friday Night Lights. That's cool, man.

Not only in some of the tonal stuff and maybe even some of the filmmaking stuff, but especially like the way in which I notice people talk about the characters and feel protective of the characters and start to develop like, almost like personal relationships with some of the characters. But with that comes, there's still characters.

Yeah. You still want to put them through certain. things and they can't just be preserved and always internet boyfriend for everybody. But like did you have any moments in the making of or the writing of two where you were starting to become aware of like this is what people think of Richie or Sydney or Carmie? Not once. And I think it's because again we had like since we sort of have one

season one, two and three figured out it was really cool to not have to answer any of that stuff. really, you know, and I think, again, I think it just goes back to, I mean, Andy, you know, in production, like, you just get beat up all day. Everyone's just, you know, like, your time is always just, you're obsessed with time. So it's like any of that stuff sort of just gets covered and everything else that has to happen in the day. If you had had more time, maybe then the doubt would start to creep out. I think so. Or maybe, or if the season had been delayed longer or whatever. Yeah, less doubt, but more like, you know, Jeremy said this thing that was really interesting is in the aftermath when you're, like, promoting it. the cool thing about the show, like love or hate it, there are, people do feel attached to certain aspects of it

and I think take certain things away from performances that maybe the actors weren't even aware of it. Jeremy was like, man, I've been talking about it so much. I don't even remember what my first instincts

of the character were. And I think it's one of the cool things. Again, what I say about, like, 95% of it is the cast. It's like, they're bringing a lot of their own personality to it.

And I think it just speaks to how incredible they are that you just get attached to it. And the Friday Night Lights comparison is awesome. I love that show so much, man. But there's also, you know, and clearly you had committed to this ahead of times, you didn't want to rethink it. But it's a radically different show in the second season in some crucial ways. I mean, it goes from being sort of knock around blue collar to white linen, or at least white linen aspirational in terms of the construct of what they're doing. And you have to have some confidence, right, in the overall story, but also what need, I guess the question in there is you are committed to a radical change in the show. from season one to season two before you even went into production on season one. How did you keep perspective

on what you needed to hold on to? What are your North Stars in terms of what makes the Bear the Bear even as the restaurant itself changes? Yeah, that's a good question. I think it was also like me just wanted to be honest to why I made it in the first place, you know? And I think it's, because to me,

it's less about a restaurant and more about sort of these people. And I knew, you know, I knew we were going to be slower to start and you were going to open up the world and get to know these people, but I also kept thinking like, dude, if it's just people screaming at each other,

you're gonna get sick of that shit. Yeah. I truly selfishly. Like, I was like, I don't know if I want to like shoot scenes like that all day long. And it's like, you know, there's so many references to other filmmakers I love

that we were sort of like, it's cool to change it up a little bit and like let these people sort of play around and get to know them. But at the same time, like we know it's going to get crazier again at some point and I think like you might maybe enjoy it a little bit more

because you haven't been bludgeoned with people, you know, screaming for 10 more episodes. Yeah, I saw you talking about, like, the Hornsby song in the opening episode being like, it's okay, chill out. It's going to be, like, we're going to take it, like, down like five degrees here. Totally.

And I also think that's true of, like, not just restaurants, but a lot of jobs. Like, it goes from chaos to not chaos. And I think in season two, because they're building a restaurant, it sort of felt natural to let them chill out a little bit. And I think, yeah, that Hornsby song is great, dude. I mean, it's so funny because it was like, you know, so much of the show, obviously, is based on And, you know, friendships I made at Mr. Beef and my buddy, Chris Zucero. And I remember, you know, being, I don't know, like five years old or something

in hearing about Backdraft filming in Chicago. And Backdraft always has, like, such a specific place in my heart. And there was this great montage that has that Bruce Hornsby song on it. Like, it's really sort of lovely in the middle of this movie of them sort of driving around Chicago. Yeah, that's like they're doing, it's like all their, like, they're firefighting. And it's just like a beautiful summer in Chicago. Yeah. Yeah.

I watched a live performance. of that after the show came out, I was like, I have not thought about Bruce Hornsby a lot. I think a live performance of backdraft. A live performance

during the strike we're all trying to make ends meet. Russell and Billy Baldwin getting back together. It gets kind of exciting. But there's a, it's a Bruce Hornsby in the range concert

from like 1990. And it starts to, I think it's in Chicago. I'm not sure, but it's like, it starts and it's Hornsby and I'm familiar with him but I'm like,

I wonder what Bruce Hornsby's band looked like and it pans right. And it's like, it's a time in America where dudes were like just way older. Very specific, yeah.

They're like 40, but they look 70. They're 40, but they look like they just definitely have smoked like 700 Benson and Hedges that day. And they're just like, like the session dudes who are playing with them are just amazing. I also flew Chris's mind. I was like, have you been keeping up with Hornsby? He's been making some pretty relevant records recently. He's fucking sending me like late period Hornsby songs. Hornsby has a duet with James Mercer from the shit.

It's good. Look, well, we still got it. We'll circle back. Hornsby still got it. End of podcast. 100%. There's an interesting dynamic that happens with long-running TV shows, and it speaks to what Chris was saying about people's parisocial relationship to the characters, which is we love these people. And I think one of the things that makes the bear so special is that it's clear that you love them also, you and Joanne and the rest of your creative team.

You love them as actors and you love them as characters. How do you consider your responsibility towards them when you're crafting a season like season two where you want them to win? And there are moments that are, you know, frankly, why we watch television, like when Tina smiles, but Sydney offers her the job, you know. And it's also why you cast an actress like Liza Colonsias because she's in the background and she can give you that smile and do so much more. But so just in terms of that balancing act, of you want to give them wins, but it's also a dramatic TV show with very high stakes. What's your setting on that? It's interesting. Me, Coco and Maddie, always have this thing that we talk about a lot, which is like winning is losing.

a lot of the times. And it's hyper specific to restaurants, which is like one service will be great. The next day can be fucked. I swear, I'm so sorry. Please, I'm not. But like the next day will just be fucked.

You know, and it's like you sort of see that in the building of the restaurant because, you know, like the construction and sort of building of any business can be relatively boring. But I think when you know

how much stock these people have in it, even like the smallest victories kind of end up being these gigantic game changers. Like, for example, But I remember talking to a lot of my friends that were opening new restaurants or something. And they were always saying, like, fire suppression and getting the gas on is always like the heartbreaker. I said when we were doing our season breakdown, I was like, eight is like a shadow end of the season.

Because for them, that's when their lives flash before their eyes. You know, and it's like, then the hard part happens. But there's like a nice version of this where it's like, we pass the test the end of the season. Totally. Well, I think it's interesting too because at that episode, you know, you end like with fire. And then we end the season with like cold. And it's sort of back to this like fight, flight, and then the third response of stress, which is freeze,

which I think is extremely relatable to a lot of people. But I think when you put that in the scope of trying to operate a new business and be a leader to whatever your skill set is, like the smallest victories are everything, man, because the biggest victories are often the ones that you lose, I think. And I think that's sort of a little bit of the outline we always follow when we're putting together a season. You know,

the person who really has to hold the L in this second season is Carmi, right? Like the character is the one that even, you know, you get Richie's sort of redemptive moments when he's stodging. You get Sidney kind of coming to this sort of point of understanding with her father.

You know, all these characters kind of find themselves in a new, maybe like, place that they've been longing to be. And then he's fucking locked in a freezer, unable to experience joy, and now single again, or, you know, obviously, it has this, like, terrible moment of Claire. That's got to be an interesting conversation with Jeremy, because it's like you don't get,

Jeremy, like, Carmi doesn't get to come in and do the carousel speech in Mad Men. Like, you know what I mean? He doesn't get to come in and be like, tonight I cooked my ass off and everybody saw it as the best in the world. But, like, he seems like the kind of actor who embraces that. But you would have to have that because there might be other people out there, be like, can I do something really cool at the end of the season? Like, everybody else gets, like, can I drive around the love story? No, it's a great point, because I also think, like, I should also say, like, Jeremy's an incredibly gracious actor who, like, even when I, like, told him, you know, I think this is what's going to happen. He's like, that's so fucking cool. Because also you get to know everybody else. But I do think it is true of a lot of people. It's definitely something I suffer with where you're just like, I'm going to freeze and can't accept any form of joy. Like this is, like, you know, when Joanne and I and I, uh, when was the last time you had, like, fun? And I was. Like, this is, like, you know, like, when was the last time you had, like, fun? And I was.

I was sort of like, whoa. Like, it was one of those moments that I was like, and I am grateful and I love my job in my life very much. But like, there were, I was like, I don't know. College? Well, no, but it is interesting because you're sort of a class on fun. I ordered it. No, but it is this thing where you're sort of like, well, I have a great time at work

and I love everybody. But there is that moment when, you know, you're on location, you get home and your place is all of a sudden very quiet. Yeah. And, you know, your significant other isn't there. And you're sort of out of your routine. And it's like one of the first things we see in episode one, too, is like Jeremy going home to quiet.

And I think that's the moment that sort of says a lot about where he is in his life, especially someone that grew up knowing chaos is the norm. So when you have this girl come into your life that sort of represents maybe even like hope and something about patience and acceptance in like kindness, it's terrifying. Yeah. I think one of the most obvious challenges that you face in making the show broadly, but specifically the second season, I think, is sort of convincing the world that fine dining is worthwhile, even in this economy,

that there's a reason for doing this. And I think the brilliant way that you choose to communicate that is why these specific characters need that. Right. You know, they need that order in chaos. And I think that's an interesting throughline for the show's project as a whole, which is it is deeply, I guess, I keep using the word credulous of the idea that to, you can find yourself through work, through repetition, through self-respect, and these sort of overarching concepts that people who successfully navigate kitchens preach. Is that a fair assessment?

A hundred percent, man. I mean, look, I'm like a hyper-anxious person. Like, in my, like, anxiety is a real thing in depression that I battle with all the time. And I think one of the things that I have found that sort of helps at times is routine. And I think that is true of a lot of creative people I know. And I think because the first season of the show was more intense and about this guy trying to figure out his life. And season two, we sort of get to get into what creativity means to people and what teamwork means

to people. And like, I don't know that a Michelin rated restaurant is better than an, you know, like I think that's like a conversation. I don't have the answer to. But I do think there is something about the value of teamwork and being pushed in finding yourself creatively. and how that can lead to better communication in your own life.

Like, I think you were asking about process earlier. Like, it sounds like bullshit, but, like, I am so grateful for this show, man. Like, it's, like, in terms of the communication with my partners and, like, we have a good time, man. Like, we're all considerate of each other. And, like, it does feel like a family thing. And I know that it's not necessarily always that way. So I think, you know, when you were saying, like, how do we react to season one? think the thing we really did was sort of like, all right, aside from what people thought of it,

believe me, like, you can go on Twitter enough people fucking hate it, that it's all good. But I do think when you look back at like, well, why did it, what, like, what did we do that was right? And, you know, there were some, like, whether it was like setting up the prop department and art department or how they pushed certain ideas or, you know, how Maddie and Coco furthered the story through the food. Like, we just locked in on some things that we thought were sort of kind of special. And we were like, well, that could lend itself a little bit more to season two.

I was curious whether or not you know this second seasons of shows especially shows that are like relatively successful or successful in any way tend to follow this idea that you take this core group of people and then you necessarily for narrative purposes have to separate them. They have to go on like these individual

journeys and then bring them back together in some way which this show does do but I also noticed that there was a little bit of a departure filmmaking wise in various episodes specifically you know I would say Pop had like a kind of almost Cameron Crow feel. And obviously the Richie episode, a lot of people have talked about

the Michael manniness of it. And, you know, so as a filmmaker and as somebody who's probably overseeing the visual aspect of the show, was it important for you to have like almost like the filmmaking journey be different than the first season and go off and try other things

and then come back to The Bear in those last two episodes? I think so. But I also think it was more you know, if we were doing some of a lot of the same it's kind of the same as the yelling thing. Like I was like, if we were doing some of the same camera stuff, like, I think it might get repetitive

and ultra-boring. But also, like, storytelling-wise, I kept thinking, like, you know, they're in a little bit of a brighter spot. So, like, you know, Andrew Wade, our DP and our, in Chris Dame and Gary Maloof, our camera operator, they really, and Jeremy Long are, one of our gaffers, like,

they really built sort of a brighter space. So, like, the bear is inherently going to be a little bit of a brighter space, but also, you know, what we would find, like, look, I wish I could tell you that it was, like, all well thought out in advance, but it really kind of comes from character. Like, episode seven, for example, like, we had so much fun thinking that, like, Eben or Richie was obsessed with Ridley Scott and Michael Mann. Yeah. So we were like, like, we're going to lend some of that to that episode. And then we have, like, you know, the wonderful Molly Gordon join us this year. And I think, like, the first time that I saw her and Jeremy together, it was like, okay, we're going to have a hundred millimeter lens and that's it. And we're just going to let these, like, both of their eyes are so sharp and hopeful and full of promise. It's like, let's just let them look each other and we don't have to overcover it. But I think we also knew that because Joanna, like, Pop is one of my favorite episodes of this season. I think Joanna just like killed that thing because I feel like it's been a while since we've seen just like an old, kind of like an old romantic comedy that's sort of had.

And by the way, talk about music, the one music cue that no one's picked up on. Claire and Carm, when they're in the kitchen toward the end of the party, we got Ira Newborn. weird science score that's playing very quietly in the background because it's like we, you know, Joanna had that great idea too, that the party should sort of just feel like it's a representation of childhood and there's like a super dog all over the

place and I like the idea of somebody at Disney who's like the accounting department being like, okay. By the way, I think like FX has just been incredible partners with that stuff. They're like, all right man, you want a Hornsby song? Like, I get, you know. But I think like the same goes for like episode three

which Joanna directed that really was about creativity. And, you know, her and Iyo got to run around Chicago and so many of our restaurant friends like Donnie Medea and everybody and everybody at Casama really helped us sort of inform what that creative process is like. And then, you know, for episode four, Rami directed it. Yeah. And Newport Barra, who shot our pilot, came back and we knew it would have a different look. And I think it's because Joanne and I are usually directing and Rami and I have worked together so much in the past that it was like, you guys do, like, just make this its own thing because we also know there's going to be a bomb in episode six that's going to be kind of nutty.

I think we want to talk about six and seven, but I did want to ask you just two questions about casting. You sort of alluded to it before. Part of it is something you've already said, which I realize that you had relationships with some of the actors. One thing that I feel is kind of a, you can make this blanket statement, just like filmmakers broadly love actors, but I feel like there's some who really fucking love actors, and I get that sense from your show. And the reason I say that is not just because you cast so well, but you seem to, you and your collaborators seem to just see into the actor's soul and think about what they excel at, what particular ineffable thing they bring and put them in positions to succeed. And I can't help but always

think of Eben when I consider that. You know, because you, in his performance, I see decades of never quite being the guy, even though, you know, we've had him on the podcast. He's a lovely person. Yeah, yeah. But he brings that to it. And I can't help but think about it when you have him share the screen with Olivia Coleman, you know, who is world-class actor. And she's there doing one scene,

and she's doing it with him. And that guy can fucking hang. And you're giving him the opportunity to do it, and he shows up on center court at Wimbledon to have that match. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, too, man,

because I do, like, I really am in awe of them. And I think, you know, the way we shoot our show, it's like two or three takes for the most part because I think we like it to feel nervous and especially sometimes with the cooking stuff like take four almost feels a little too dialed at it yeah but I think this thing

and again like it's kind of the film school of season two which is like you really feel some of the actors unlock each other or take them to an excellent like for example when early on I was like I oh I think we're going to see her dad this year and I was like and I was thinking before I could even say it she was like Robert Townsend and I was like holy fuck yeah not only because

Robert Townsend rules, but it's like, you know, I owe and him and had a friendship, but also like, you know, I love directing comedy specials. Like, it's something that I really like doing a lot. And Robert was always someone I really admired. Like, he made Raw, but he also made Meteor Man and the Five Heartbeats. And when I was like, I don't know if he'll do it. And when we talked to him about it and we were lucky enough to have him, like him and Io just unlock something in Gentleman, where you're like, you guys feel like you've known each other forever. And I think the same is true of Molly and Jeremy, but also, Evan and Burnthal, dude. Like, I mean, like, Eben, obviously is a world-class actor, but, like, because him and Johnny have had this history and are dear friends in real life, there's, like, something about the two of them that that they just keep going to that.

Yeah, I mean... No, there's stuff like, he looks at Bernthal in those scenes where he's, like, he wants his, like, approval. 100%. But it's never written. It's just like him, like, hey, man, did you hear my joke? Like, kind of, like... Yeah. It's so good. Yeah. And then I also think you see, like, Will Poulter and Lionel have this chemistry that's

out of control. And speaking to the Olivia thing was really interesting because I think when we were talking about that episode, you know, like you're going to see who the chef is eventually at the end. And, you know, she's sort of based on sort of like, you know, like a Thomas Keller or someone that's like bases themselves off routine and has, and has gotten their ass kicked in the industry a little bit and come back. And we kept thinking like, man, there's something so cool. Not only that if it's the reveal that it's a woman and she sort of looks like Nancy Silberton and kind of has like a great vibe

but a British woman we were like man if Olivia Coleman would do it we'd really hammer that thing home and we were lucky to get her and I think... How much time did you have with her? So she can't... She's like the coolest person of a face lover.

I mean like it's so weird because you never know what you're... And I have to say like every guest actor that came in this year was like the shit dude. Yeah. Like truly like working for scale. like no one got paid,

like came in for three days at a time. You know, we kicked the shit out of them and it was the most fun. And I think Olivia flew from London for 12 hours and we shot her out about two and a half hours

and then she went home. But I mean, it was, but I think, I think for newcomers to the set, they're sort of, at first they're kind of like, this is kind of wild. And then they're like,

oh, this is so fun and so cool. Well, that's a perfect segue to the other question, which was one of the things that the show has done so well is bring people into the world who feel like they've always been in the world. And obviously, part of that is people that you knew would fit in.

Part of that is casting people who might be unknown to the larger public. So when we begin to know them, we know them for this part. So Molly Gordon's a great example where I think I've seen her in things, but I don't know her. And she looks, and she's lovely to look at, but she also looks like she could be in Chicago. It's plausible. That was kind of a weird drive-by in Chicago. I apologize. No, no.

The city full of beautiful people. As a Philadelphia, I can say that. But she fits. And so I was curious about the thinking behind six where suddenly you've brought in this rogues gallery of brilliant performers, some of whom are like Twitter faves, you know, or just like people who we have deep connections to and feel a certain way about the decision to do that

and whether it would disrupt anything. And then also, I think you've already begun to say what that was like when you were actually rolling on them. Well, you know, it's interesting because we wanted it, first of all, that episode was so fun. Because I think when you write something, or when, you know, Joe and I wrote that together and obviously it's like very deeply personal

of some shit that we had seen and I think a lot of people have seen when you just have a holiday dinner that just goes to shit and everyone's trying too hard and there's probably some substance abuse and some mental illness but as gnarly as it gets

there's also stupid shit happening everywhere like you know like they can be something can be really particularly disgusting in one room and then silly in the other and I think when we were putting that together we really wanted it to feel disorientating and disruptive and distracting the way that you walk into a Hollywood, excuse me, a holiday party.

And you're sort of like, who the fuck is that? Like, what's that person doing? What is going on? Like, why is Bob Odeco? Why is Jamie Lee Curtis? Like, what's going on? But then as you settle into it, you're sort of like, oh, these are all heavy hitters throwing fastballs at each other. And I think for me, selfishly, it was also this chance to be like, okay, we have to remember all these people.

Not two to similar from Bernthal in season one where these people are a weight on Karmie or in some cases like the savior to them. So when I look at somebody like Sarah Paulson, who I think is one of the greatest actors working today that she came in and did that for us. And she was sort of this person to give a key piece of advice to Jeremy. Like that makes as much sense to me as like Jamie Lee just being a fucking animal. Because you need, because they need to be outsized. 100% of casting, but outsized in terms of the shadow they cast on our lead. Like this is someone that they loom over Jeremy every day. It's so crazy.

The Stevie and Michelle characters were like, I remember when my. I was like in fourth or fifth grade, but like my grandfather died. And my aunt came to the funeral from L.A. with this dude who was her boyfriend. And he like immediately the first day took me out and bought me a skateboard. And that's the only thing I remember about my grandfather's like entire thing. Like was like this guy who was like the coolest motherfucker ever bought me a VeraFlex when I was like nine years old. And like that's Michelle and Stevie. Like they're the people from out of town who are just like we got out of here.

You know? And they're like a little cool. and their words carry so much weight because they've got this experience outside of this nest, you know? 100%, but also it's like, exactly what you say. Like you're anticipating this guy to be a fucking dick and he brings a skateboard, you're like, oh, he's all right.

And I think like when we were, the other thing that we'd like to do on our show a lot of sort of like, or just in general, I should say, is like there is a little bit of a reversal to it. Like, where you're like, I think Malaney is so fucking good on that episode. He's incredible. And I think like people just hadn't seen him do that yet.

And I think when you, really look at it, you're like, well, he's one of our greatest storytellers. Like, why wouldn't he be good in this scenario having to make a speech? But also at the same time, you're like, I haven't seen JLC go fucking bad shit crazy like that. Like, I haven't seen

sort of, like, Gillian do that with Eben. Like, I haven't seen a lot of the people in this, like, by the way, Ricky Stafiri, who's one of our best friends and was our assistant on season one, plays Ted Fack, and fucking rules. And like, his first, I mean, like, it was so great, because he's like, dude, my first scene, I'm with I'm in between

Oaten Kirk and Bernthal. And it was so funny because I think the first, I think the first thing we shot, one of the first things we shot of this episode was like Paulson hanging with the facts.

And I think for a second, she's like, what in the fuck is happening? And like dove right in and it was the best. How do you balance with so many, I want to say,

like just talented actors? I want to say big actors, but I didn't mean that in a pejorative way. No, I know you mean. But as a director, you are kind of a chef in this moment

because you have to calibrate the ingredients to take. So what is the tone that you're striking on set to make sure that while they go big, this is a holiday dinner, people are high, they're drunk, they're angry, they stay within the bounds of the meal you're trying to serve? Well, it was interesting, too,

because when we wrote the script, I think the script is like 35 pages, and I think the end of the episode's about 105. And that's like a hard thing, too, because I hate when show, like, I don't, sometimes shows go too long in it. But I think, like, on this one, we kind of earned it a little bit,

and it didn't feel boring to us. And I know we'd go a little bit above 30 a few times a season. But in the thinking about it, like the way I think we love to run our sets is like, here's sort of the script, but like let's add or subtract and like what's kind of end here. And I think the biggest bonus

of having actors like that, dude, because I know some people were like, were you scared, and you're like, no, dude, you're like pumped because you're like, you know that this is going to get fucking crazy. But yeah, and it's like, as we were shooting that,

and like Bob's the best, dude. And I think like when we were shooting that scene at the table, there was just like one of my favorite moments. moments of shooting anything. I think we had done two takes that was just sort of the the fork throwing kind of starting to build up and everyone getting tense. And I think like Bernthal knew that we usually do about three. And so in between two and three, like walked up and he was like, boss, I'm going to throw this fucking table. I was like, I was like, throw that table, my dude. So like, but it was great.

And I also think like that episode in particular was great because, you know, Iyo wasn't in it. So she served as our, she produced that episode with us. And she was set with me at the monitor, with me and Joanna. And, you know, I-O is going to be,

like, probably one of our finest filmmakers. She's just so sharp. She's already one of our preeminent letterbox users. Yeah, I mean, dude, but she's,

like, she's smart in a way that's kind of... Her reviews are great. Yeah. And, but, I mean, she just is so literate and sharp

at all times that I think, like, having her at the monitor, like, she was the person that was, like, rain this in a little bit, or Joe or anyone

or Josh, would chime in him to sort of be like, let's take this down a notch. But I think the benefit of having all those people was it was going to get out of fucking control. Like, so many things weren't scripted. Like when she, when Sarah looks at Jamie Lean is like, not really. Oh shit. That like, fuck you explosion was really incredible.

Because at the same time, like, I know our core cast is so unbelievable. Like, I think it should also go without saying that like Abby's sort of the MVP of the season, sneaky. And I think like that performance of that episode is sort of grounds. everything like that last shot we see of her is because there was a take where she was crying and it was like there was something better about the exhaustion sort of being at the the end of all this crazy shit and again going back to the unlocking thing like they all worked so well together man like because i think you were also saying like when you get more known people maybe this shit hits the fan or you know maybe someone's a dick or something you know but everyone was the best but also

there's an act of faith to it too with that i'm glad you mentioned abbey because because she was an important part of the ensemble in season one, but she didn't have her own arc, or we didn't understand how she fit in. And there is an enormous act of faith. I overdo the show as the metaphor for the creative process. But when Carmen gives Tina his knife, I mean, you could go one of two ways.

You could just run away from something that's an unknown. Can Abby carry those moments? Can she do these scenes? Can she be the integral part of the cast? Or you trust the people you hired, the people you've come to know, right? And it seems like that was enormously rewarding for everyone. Of course, man. And also, I think it's like, it goes back to that like generous, the generosity of everybody. Like, the cast is so kind to each other and really wants everyone to succeed. And I think like a lot of the most alive moments, I think that's what I should have said. Like, we're always chasing things that feel like really, really alive. Like, one of my favorite moments of a movie semi-recently is an American hustle. This is like such a bizarre reference to make. But like, there is a moment in American hustle where Bradley Cooper thinks he's won.

and does an impression of Louis C.K. Gets a laugh and then does it again. Which, like, whatever you think of that movie is, like, truly one of the fucking greatest things ever because you know that was improv and you know that he was set up to sort of create that moment. And I think, like, that spirit really is

what we were sort of chasing in episode six. Because, as you said, Andy, like, everything else is so sort of locked down the rest of the season, like, this is where we could sort of fully be out of control. I was wondering for six specifically, but in general, how much of the

filmmaking do you think we should be viewing you wouldn't do prescriptive stuff for audience, but how much of six, for instance, is like Karmie's memory and like the filmmaking

kind of is reflecting this is this pivotal moment in this guy's life, this is why he needs to make this canoli or can't make this canoli, but also like it's an inflection point, he goes away again after this, everything changes,

and so that the way the performances are calibrated, but specifically the filmmaking is, he's not in every scene, but I almost watched that episode. I'm like, this is this guy's memory of this night to some extent. And how much does that impact? So even when he meets Claire in the deli or the bodega or whatever,

and it's like, that is like the fucking most romantic thing you've ever seen. It's just this frosted freezer window. And it's like the idea that you're shooting kind of to reflect the intention. interiority of these characters. 100%. I also think it's like, you know,

chefs talk a lot about sense memory. So that episode really is, it's all noise. And then in the middle of it, it's sort of shot like the bear. It's sort of shot like you remember first season. But, you know, Claire and Karm at the fridge, we framed and shot that the same way that Jamie Lee in,

in Karm or at the fridge, the same way that we shot Karm and Bernthal. So these things reverberate. And also, like, I think if you remember in season two, or in episode two, there's a moment where they have to like cut a lock only for Karmie to be locked away at the end. Like there are these things about getting

locked in these memories of being, like I said before, like there's flight, fright, and then freeze, which is like a really hard thing to talk about, but also like visualize. And so I think when Karm looks back on that, like we also colored it differently, like it's much grainier, it's as close to

30, like we wanted to shoot 35 and it's, we ran into some production. Well, we just I don't think we could have been able to move. Succession had used all the 35-millimeter film left. The whole budget got blown on a little. Totally, totally. No, we were also just like, you know, the schedule was so fast that we were like, we

got to keep rocking. You can have weird science or you can have 35-millimeter. Literally, you can have strange currencies three times or, you know, this. But, you know, we also, like, I think one of the things we figured out about the show is that we normally shoot really long takes. Uh-huh. So we'll just roll for 12 minutes and have people sort of come in and out of the scene. And, you know, that first scene in six where they were all in the kitchen was

truly like the funnest thing because you're like okay gil you come in here ebbin like go tickle jamie lee let her fall like and it started to feel alive and sort of scary in the way that memories can feel sort of alive and scary and also faded a little bit i think um you're in a safe space when it comes to episode seven um forks because i think we both think it's a masterpiece we love it and particularly coming after six the economy of it is really bracing and exciting and i and there's just clearly you give a lot of thought to how you course out the season but i did want to use seven as an opportunity to get your thoughts on one criticism that I have heard about the season. I don't

share it. I actually think it's a feature, not a bug, but that there's a fantasy element here. That Richie, the Richie we meet in season one, could he become a world-class three-star Michelin Matraudy after a week? You know, is he uniquely special to have this opportunity granted to him and to deliver in that moment? And I feel like that's something you must have considered in the storytelling, and I'm wondering what your perspective on that is. You know, it's interesting because a lot of that episode was sort of inspired by some of my friends that do this that run three-star Michelin restaurants. And like Nick Cacconis at Alinia was really great to us and let us watch Expo. And particularly my friend Will Godara wrote a book about hospitality and he wrote

Richie's reading that. Which Richie is reading. But he also ran 11 Madison was a co-owner of Madison Park. And because you know, some people are like, you know, well, that was so quick. And it's like, well, I don't know how long excitement, passion. takes. Like, who knows? By the way, Richie could fall on his ass in season three. But I think the thing that I wanted to capture was, man, when you're inspired, whether it's by a job or a girl or something happening in your life, dude, like, it's the best. Especially with someone who's been struggling with purpose and especially someone who's

like, this shit is so stupid only to find that like, oh, I kind of understand it. Like, I kind of am into this. Like, taking care of people is like a beautiful thing. Because again, we don't know what happens in season three. Like, we don't know if it pans out for him if he ends up loving it. But I do think when you are inspired in the right way, something clicks. And I think, like, the every second counts really means something to a guy like Richie. Well, I also just think fundamentally, like, the core tenet of your show is that it's very big-hearted. You know, it is not ironic.

It is not. There's no distance. And I think that's underappreciated. And I think it's one of the reasons why people. respond to it to such a degree. And you can see it in, you know, in a character arc like the one we're describing. But I think you can also see it and we've talked about this a lot with the needle drops. Sure. You know, when you put Letdown in season one, these motherfuckers. You don't actually use the best song. You have to like hide behind it and you put the obscure track on the mixtape to impress someone.

You don't use the one that will actually bring the house down. Totally. You guys always choose the song that is the biggest purest expression of what people might be feeling or thinking or wanting to listen to. No, you're showing. You should answer the question. No, no, but it's great because I think it's also like, you know, Josh and I do the music and we work with a clearance person. It's great. And we sort of have really found like the turnaround again, back to process, is so fast that I think every season we sort of be like, here's some music that we were feeling previously and particularly driving around listening to XRT and radio station XRT in Chicago that I love, which sort of just plays anything and everything.

but it sort of also is in the place where you're like, if I was just going on what this station played, I wouldn't know what decade it was. Yeah, right. And I think by having all these needle drops from all over the place, it does feel a little timeless and a little dad rocky

and a little like sort of lost somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, if you were worried about losing us in season two, you could do worse than putting the replacements in it. We're back. Yeah. Well, I also think it's like, you know, I'm never like, check out my musical knowledge, man.

Like, you know. It's just good. Well, it's just like, this is shit that we love listening to. I did not know that harmonia song, though. The Bridea one. That was fucking incredible. Awesome.

Yeah. It's great. Well, also, it's interesting, too, because I, we have sort of found that, you know, Josh and I sort of taking on, like, the supervisor role just because of it, like, literally, like, we're moving so fast. And it's like, it just sort of became a necessity.

We did find that it was something cool about connecting with the actual bands because we would be like, no, no, we're going to play the whole song for three minutes. And they were like, of cool and different. Yeah. We made a lot of great friendships that way. This is sort of a sidetrack conversation,

but would you, do you think White Squall is in Richie's like Ridley Scott Mount Rush? 100%. Also, it's really hard to see. There is an annotated copy of the movie novelization of Black Rain on his night stand.

Yeah, it's deep. So he's a real one. He's a real one. Yeah. He's a real one. And even like his bookcase we can't really see, there's like,

the making a blade run. Like, there's a lot, a lot. How deep does it go? Like, is he Kingdom of Heaven Directors cut? Oh, Kingdom of Heaven Directors' cut?

I think he's, I think he's like someone to watch over me town. Yeah. You know, like, he's seen all, you know what's funny? My, my, uh, my, my friend, my friend Max texted me.

It was sort of like white squall. That's all I said. I was like, it's the highest praise. I think we gotta get Richie in, we gotta get Eb and in character on the Big Picture podcast. Yeah.

I feel like that would be his best. Well, you know what? It's also like, going back to Chris Zoucaro, who is my lifelong, like the first friend I ever made whose family owned Mr. Beef. Like, they were always so, his father who passed away while we were making the show

was always so wonderful to my sister and I and let us hang out there and work there. And, you know, they had such an encyclopedic knowledge of hyper-specific filmmakers. Like, Chris can talk about William Friedkin all day and Michael Mann. And the spirit of that definitely made its way into Summit Ritchie.

I think one of the most remarkable accomplishments of the bear across two seasons, is chefs like it and chefs respect it. We talk a lot about how, you know, if we watch a show about detectives or the military, we're like, well, that's accurate. Yeah. And we're responding to the truth.

We know what that's like. We don't know at all. But if we saw a show about, you know, music journalists or podcasters or whatever, we'd be like, okay, now, let's pump the brakes. I actually did that with an episode of been just like that recently. I was like watching it. And there's like a podcast part. And I was like, that's not actually how the advertising industry works.

But also they were like preparing for the podcast ahead of time. And you're like, I'm going to call bullshit on you. But so that is kind of a magic trick because even we were talking before about our mutual friend, Daniel, who could nitpick specific things, but understands the large project is true. You know, and how do you feel like you and your team were able to accomplish this? Honestly, man, I think it's because, and again, there's plenty of, don't really do, there's plenty of people that like. Oh, I'm sure. Oh, man, I get hit every day. I'm like, oh, I can't look at fucking DMs.

Like, they're all just like, you fucking suck. You didn't let that fucking T-bone rest. Dude, yeah, dude, everybody knows. But also, I think it's, I do think it's because, look, there's all kinds of shit we get wrong. And production is hard. Like, you're like, you know, people point out, like, that's not Lake Short, that's not the Eden's. You're like, yeah, I know. We had two hours to get the shot and it was either that or nothing or whatever it is, you know.

But I think, like, in terms of, like, the actual chef stuff, I think it's, We always wanted to shoot for like 50% accuracy. And I think the reason I say that is because, like, look, the kitchen's gigantic because you have to fit a camera in. You have to fit sound people. Like, a lot of the kitchen is much more generous than any of these chefs and restaurant tours can deal with. But I do think there's something about it that shows its heart was in the right place.

And, like, we did try. And so many of our friends and family were really amazing to us. and particularly Courtney and Maddie in their outreach, but like, you know, you say DP, Daniel Patterson, who is the chef of qua and is sort of one of these genius-level cooks. You know, I spent a lot of time following him and Roy Choi around when they were going to open local. And watching the way they work together was like really incredible

and not dissimilar from the way Karmie and Sid do. So even if we're not getting everything right, I do think the spirit of chasing that, Like, dude, there was a day that we were at some weird, like, someone was hosting a benefit at their home in New York and sort of hired, like, every incredible chef in New York to come visit. And I found myself watching Roy Choi, Daniel Patterson, and Renee Rzeppe, like, taste test a chicken nugget that they were working on. And the three of them pushing each other and, like, taking it very seriously was, like, truly one of the most inspiring things because I was like, oh, man, those are, like, three. guys with three completely different backgrounds, all sort of chasing this thing. And I think that really stuck with me, the spirit of that. So I think we're definitely very grateful that the restaurant

community accepted us. But I also think it's like so much of it is due to, you know, my sister and Maddie and people like Daniel in my life. Is there a little bit of a magic trick that has to happen with the food to the extent that we're told Carmi is this kind of like one of one? Luca says as much pretty much when he's talking to to Lionel and then like you know as the season goes on and we hear about chaos menu we see glimpses of the menu

here and there where individual dishes will start to get tweaked or whatever but we've talked a lot in discussing the episode where it's almost like the reverse that thing you do problem like that thing you do can just play the song over and over again and they got the right song and you're just like that would be a hit that's right

but for Karmie's cooking, especially since food is so subjective, people have such wildly different tastes, do you have to kind of keep it a little bit obscured what it is? 100%. And I think that's also like, look, if we're lucky enough to get a season three, I think we get into that much more. But I think the thing that I found being around a lot of chefs too is that like the food is almost like secondary.

Like when you're building a restaurant, you're like... Well, that's because when you showed the menu on the wall, I was like, yeah, it's like a menu. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is interesting because like truly, Watching, you know, like people, like in a three-star Michelin restaurant, they're changing their menu every day and they do it at the end of the night, usually based on what they have or, you know, sort of what the routine is inside that restaurant. And I, at least what I've observed. And I think when you're building a restaurant, it's sort of like what you said about like people liking season one and then going to season two. It's like you can't even let any of that shit in because you have to build another restaurant. So it's like you trust yourself that the food will be okay as long as the foundation is there for it. Also, the majority of people and majority of meals, you don't really remember the food that much past it. You remember maybe a dish or a taste, but you remember the night.

You remember the company and you remember the service and the atmosphere and everything else that went around it. And I feel like that's a similar ratio that you guys bring to the show where the human stories and their emotional arcs and their journeys, that's what we're watching. And the food is just night to night, we're going to see it. And that's the language that they're using to communicate. Yeah, I also think we've found in the making of it, like, again, because how we do the food is like, my sister is essentially running a restaurant within the show, which is pretty incredible to see. And she works with Laura Roper, our props department. It's like, it is wild that they're building like a full-scale restaurant to sort of accommodate all the food stuff. And I think the thing we've realized is some of the,

you can go so into the weeds with the food stuff too. So it's like, it is a choice to be like, all right, Carmie's good at this. Like they'll figure, Sydney's good at this. We'll figure it out. And we'll get into it later. We were going to ask this and we almost forgot to, which is, So Maddie Matheson, cook, internet personality, larger than life personality, a friend of yours. But also, he's a really good actor. He's tremendous, dude. How did that?

I mean, things can happen. But there's something of the way you shot it or the positions that you put him in and then who he is, where he's just holding the screen and present in these scenes with Oliver Platt, you know, who's doing God-to-your work. Yeah. Oh, man, Platt rules. Well, no, Maddie, I mean, the thing that's interesting is, like, I love, you know, he's one of my best friends and I love him so much.

And I think it kind of goes back to he feels really safe around the cast and the crew and everyone's looking out for him. Particularly like Ebby is like his acting coach. You know, like him and Evan really spend a lot of time together. And I think like going back to the unlocking thing, like him and Ricky unlock something in each other. And it was so funny because when we were sitting, you know, Duccio Fabri, our AD and I, like, before we shot 206, we had to like lay out a chart and sort of walk through where everyone was sitting and where the special effects were going to happen and all that shit. And I remember when we showed Maddie, Maddie. He's like, got it between Bernthal and Odenkirk. Fuck you.

Like, he's like, okay, got it. Everyone's throwing fucking heat. Yeah. Okay, cool. So you alluded to it, Chrissy, if you're lucky enough to get a season three, you can't say anything. We feel strongly that you will get a season three. Not to break news to you, but we feel pretty good about it.

Knock on wood, man. It'll just be part of the larger MCU, but that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like Julia Louis Dreyfus has owned the rest of the whole time. We got the Punisher and we got, I think, I was in the Marvel World. old. That's true. The longer this goes, they'll all be eventually. You don't have a Jedi, though. I know spoilers to the Andor, but Evan has a different arc. This writer's strike, which is going on now, obviously, it's going to affect whatever planning or pre-production and writing you have for the season. Where are you with a potential season three right now? Just sort of a broad question. I don't want, we don't want spoilers. I'm just curious where your head is at, because last year, you were probably at this point. Yeah, you were already into it in season two. Well, yeah, I have like no concept of time anymore.

Truly, because I think the turnaround of the shit. Like we, even on this season, I think we made it by the skin of our, like, but right before this, like minutes before this. Yeah. And I don't think anyone, you know, there was like a week where it's like the strike might happen or it might not happen. And we're like, we should probably buggy, dude. So we cut this in a like reckless amount of time. And I think, you know, I hope this strike is over soon. and everyone gets treated fairly

and we can move on. But I think in terms of season three, we have the map. We sort of know where it's going, so we're lucky in that. I mean, again, it's like, you know, working with FX was pretty great that that was sort of from the jump,

we knew where it was headed. I always wonder whether or not like the, I was curious whether or not like any of that, this delay or whatever it would be, like it would inform the story at all because there's so much compression for the first two seasons and so much intensity.

There's like this weird breath. Season three picks up four years later and they're doing fast casual. There's like a lot of rainbows for lunch, I can promise no time jumps. But I do think it's that thing of kind of what I was saying earlier where we, any, you know, we have incredible writers.

And I think like every, and I think everyone kind of knows that we always leave room for sort of the unexpected. And I think that's what we did this year. But yeah, I mean, again, the show is so insanely fast that a break might be kind of nice. But, you know, it's a good problem to have.

If we have to do that. Your next project, you got to go full Terrence Malick and just shoot it for like six years and just like go off and shoot a league. Yeah, I was like, you know, I know we made our show, you know, in two months, pretty start to finish. So let's take a couple years. You could try, what was that word you said? Fun. Oh, yeah. Well, you know what's interesting though, dude?

I do know that, you know, everyone kind of gets worried about shows disappearing for a while. And, you know, that's something we think a lot about. but I don't know if we're lucky to do it again I think we got a good handle on it Good and we didn't even you know we didn't even talk to you about this Don Winslow thing Oh yeah Oh man

You're gonna adapt this great Don Winslow novel So if that happens I'm like I don't believe anything to like Of course Set Copman and Levine man they wrote this script That's one of the best things I've ever read And it's also like

It's got a little bit of a history of people Trying to figure it out And I think if we could do it It would be Like special And But we'll see what happens. It's got to be like Don Winslow season too, right?

Because there's, because they're like city on fire is getting made. Yeah, I heard somebody's making the election in the election. Oh, yeah. That's what I call election season. Or, you know, Karmie just goes full Frankie machine in season three. Yeah. Just big, bring them all together. Dude, thanks so much for coming by.

Thanks for me guys. Thank you for the show. We just, we just, you guys, the coolest. It means a lot.