The Watch - ‘The Bear’ Drops a Secret Episode! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E3 and ‘Top Chef’ S23E9.

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the trailers released this week for 'Tony,' the Anthony Bourdain biopic from A24 starring Dominic Sessa (2:23), and Christopher Nolan’s ‘The Odyssey’ (12:05). Then they react to ‘Gary,’ the surprise prequel episode of ‘The Bear,’ starring and co-written by Ebon Moss-Bachrach and Jon Bernthal (18:27). Later, they discuss ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 3 (46:01) and ‘Top Chef’ Season 23, Episode 9 (51:43). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of The Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime Same Day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas, terms apply.

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, like Odysseus in the Odyssey, call him Daddy. It's Andy Greenwald. I thought you were going to say like Odysseus in the Odyssey, he's American.

He speaks in your voice. It's absolutely right. This is Don DeLillo's The Odyssey. Greenwald Pact show today. A couple of things at the top. We're going to talk about the Tony trailer. Tony, the movie. The Tony trailer, not the Tonys.

Which we could also talk about. We are going to talk about television's surprise drop era, because that's what we're living in earlier this week. Gary, a standalone episode, although with a lot of, I think, prequel and sequel connective tissue. Sure. To The Bear was released out of nowhere on FX,

starring Ebbing Moss Backrack and John Bernthal. We're going to talk about that. Widows Bay, episode three, we'll touch on. And, of course, some Top Chef and maybe some After Dark. Some notes from the Waxahatchy M.J. Lunderman show that I went to, which was just a blast. Tune in. I think we should talk about the elephant in the room, which is based on your behavior last weekend, your behavior last night, you're doing this podcast. You're going straight to L.A.X. You've got to catch a flight.

Yeah. People are saying you're re-apexing. I'm trying. I'm trying my best. People are saying it. You only live once. But you're living twice. This is literally what you're doing.

That's what I'm saying. I don't want to die and be like, man, I could have gone to that hardcore show. You know? What about you in St. Peter? And St. Peter's like, it's a damn shame. You got gourd on the security tranchion

at that hardcore show. That's right. Let's talk about Tony. How about that? Okay. An interesting conversation topic for us. Andy, you've interviewed Tony Bordane, Anthony Bordane.

Anthony Bordane. you have, I think, it's fair to say, have relationships with the wider Anthony Bourdain universe in terms of people who worked at his production company, worked on his show, who have worked on books about Bourdain. This is a new film coming this year from Matt Johnson who directed Blackberry, which I'm a huge fan of, and Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie.

He did that too? Yeah. People love this guy. Matt is like a really good filmmaker. And it is because of that, and it is because of Dominic Sessa, who I really like as a performer and Leo Woodall

who I like as a performer and Antonio Banderas who looks very activated in this trailer for Tony and Stavi and Amelia Jones who's so great in task that I am very enthusiastic

about this movie even if the trailer kind of gave Deliver Me from Nowhere vibes I see. Well, do you think was that your takeaway? I think it was just it didn't

this is about Anthony Bourdain's formative summer in Provincetown as he like goes from being a ne'er-do-well, you know. Purposeless near-do-well to a near-do-well with a career path. Yes. And also a guy who wanted to be a writer who decided that he was going to be a chef and then the chef who decided he was going to be a writer and the writer decided he was going to be a television host who gave us so much in this world.

But what did you think of the trailer? I thought it was refreshing and I think I feel quite optimistic about the movie. because unlike the traditional biopic, or unlike many bloated, I think, misguided or ultimately disappointing biopics, what Matt Johnson seems to have done here is carved out a single scoop of a complicated life to make a movie out of it,

which I think is very different than being like, did you like Bob Dylan? Well, get ready. Or do you like for Springsteen? I do like that movie. Okay, that's the bad example. Maybe the better example would have been the Springsteen. Yeah.

where you attempt to get your arms around something or even the Michael Jackson movie which I don't think either of us have seen No but Ethan Hawk did. Did you see that? I did see that. Yeah. Do you have any Would you like to? I'd seem like he saw it from Oklahoma So I imagine they're shooting yeah. Yeah.

They're shooting lowdown season two. Ethan Hawk. He had a night off and Ethan Hawk and CR make friends in any room You know what I mean? Like I think you play to any crowd Big rooms, small rooms doesn't matter You show up, you put on the show. I think it's a very successful lane for biography, which is let's just take a moment and make a movie out of it.

And then if you want to interpolate things past that, fine. But they are, from everything about it, from the promotion, from the framing of it, to the fact that Dominic Sessa has an intensity and an energy. And I think, I think we agree, a star charisma, they're not making him look like in any way. And I think that's, that's key. I think the intentions are made very clear by the trailer, which is also smart marketing, that this is going to be a coming-of-age summer movie that many people may enjoy.

And if you also, if you've read Kitchen Confidential, if you're a fan of Tony Bourdain in his work, there might be something that chimes with you, but that is not the goal here. I can't remember. How significant is the Provincetown stuff in Kitchen Confidentially? It's very significant. I mean, in his biography, it's very, very significant. And the way that he cooked throughout his life really didn't change that much. I think the two major factors were what he learned from the,

I don't know if it's a composite character, if it's a one-to-one character that Antonio Banderas is portraying. Or he has like a kind of rabbi who's showing him the ways of the kitchen, how to cook up the wine, yeah. Exactly. And that and then when he worked at La Jal in New York, and it sort of went in a more French bistro direction. But like, from that point on, even when he was tooling around the world with Eric repair,

he was always saying, like, I'm going to make a shellfish soup, and a steak or whatever. It was very simple, but what the main thrust of his biography and what he presented to the world was always that the kitchen gave me direction. It gave me borders and guardrails

and purpose and skills that I then carried with me. The sort of thrust of Blackberry is, you know, obviously about the sort of creation of this device and it's like outsider, rebellious spirit. it's more, I think, spiritually true than factually true in terms of, like you're saying,

I think there are some composite characters. I think there are moments that are dramatized that are like, this didn't, we don't really know what happened in this meeting or this didn't really happen, but it kind of happened ultimately. I think it's cool that they're doing that. And I noticed that the Bordana State

came out with a statement that was like, we decided that this was going to be like a way we're going to allow Tony to be dramatized because we really believed in the vision of the people making the movie. So the only reason I like bucked up against it was because Amelia Jones is given the unfortunate task

of asking, are you a good person or not? Yeah. And Spoon plays. And even though I love Spoon, they were not big in 1970s, Provincetown, as far as I know. I mean, don't put it past them. But yeah, I mean, I think the other thing

that that tells me is the, it's interesting to think, about this movie as the nexus of the two 824s in that a 24 is known as the place that will encourage independently minded autors to stake out an artistic vision and express it but they are also the company that's now making like elton ring right and god bless them so this this may hit that sweet spot of like empowering matt johnson who also gets a script he's a he gets a his name on the i don't know if if he collaborated up with people or if he rewrote. I think it was a scripting credit.

That he came in and then reworked, yeah. But that this was his vision for something and they wanted to work with him. But then also, they are definitely aware that this has breakthrough potential. Late summer movie could be appealing, coming of age kind of thing. It just, you know what it seems like smart business all around?

But often when you see something like this and you look at the cast and you named it, I'm like, okay. Yeah, it's a great ensemble. I was curious whether or not you want this at all. Like, is somebody with, like me, has like a deep relationship to Bordane's work and what he meant. Did you want to see a movie about him at all?

No, but this is very, very smart. I think that in the year since his passing, his legacy has gotten, maybe this is true of any major figure, his legacy has become polarized in that there is a wider and wider gulf between the sanctity of the legend. And you see that in like Bourdain knife tattoos on every line cook from Brooklyn to Bangkok. plus, you know, the sort of, like, much of what you see on reels of people being like,

I'm exploring the real hawker stalls of my small town outside of Leeds or whatever. His quotes are, like, unironically written on the walls of restaurants that he probably would have hated. But the gulf between that legend and then the very messy reality, which has sort of leached out in fits and starts and the disparity of the persona that was portrayed in various books including the one by Tom I'm blanking on his name his colleague who wrote in the weeds he came on the podcast to talk about it a few years ago

or Laurie Williver's oral history like it's much messier sure and so that he was always pretty con like he was really up front about that like he was upfront about it even like a place for criminals like he was always like fairly like it's funny to go back to early episodes of boarding TV and him be like

we're the outlaws And we are the drug addicts and the petty thieves and the criminals who can't get employed elsewhere. And we like jobs that get out at 1 a.m. and then we go out and party until the next day. Like, it was a more rock and roll outsider profession back then. At least that's the way it was presented. But also when people tell you who they are, believe them, because I think the other thing that was compelling, and I've certainly talked about this and felt this way that, like, to watch his various TV shows in the way that we watch TV otherwise, as a serialized TV show about the slow evolution and growth of a main character was really meaningful

because he did seem to, first of all, he 100% changed. He also just changed back and changed again and continued to evolve as real people do. But the narrative version of him was that he was sort of, you know, becoming more, the more he traveled, the less certain he became, the more open-minded he became, the more committed he was to making connections with people and on a deep level and using his platform to go to go to places that others were afraid to go. and then starting a family and all these things. And then you read about how the more he traveled near the end of his life, the more agoraphobic he became. And that he would essentially barricade himself in his Upper East Side apartment when he was home.

And then when he would go out into the world, when he wasn't filming, he would be ordering KFC to the hotel because he just wanted familiarity, which I find it all heartbreaking and deeply, deeply human. And also too fragile and rich, honestly, for a movie or a biopic to really capture. So I think that's good that he's not going to try to. Exactly. I think it's really respectful.

And I think it's very, it's smart business, as we were saying, but I think it's also artistically more freeing and just bottom line respectful, which is why you hear that the estate is supportive of this. Your silence has been up until this point deafening about Tom Holland's American accent and the Odyssey trailer. Do you want to comment on that before we move on? I mean, I've seen all the Spider-Man movies. But did you know that Spider-Man was also an...

and Greek character. He does a good American accent. Talk to me about this. Because, okay, so I only learned about this, as I learned about most things, from you. Two thumbs and doesn't give a shit. Okay.

If these guys are speaking in American accents. Before we say anything, I want to set the scene, that I learned about this faux pa, this scandal via text from you. And in my tired morning brain, I thought it said, how do you feel about Tom Hollanders' American accent? Yes.

In the Odyssey. And I thought... I don't know that I've ever heard Tom Hollander do an American accent. Well, I would love to, and I feel like the fans of the White Lotus Season 2 deserve that much. You know? I just think it's time. Frankly, there ought to be room for an American Tom Hollander in Christopher Hollander.

Tom Hollander playing Matt Damon's son would be one of the funniest things that ever happened. His older, bitchy son would be awesome. Okay, so yeah, I don't actually care, which what is the, so the debate is, this isn't cool because some of these actors are English and also a generation, multiple generations of films have taught us that foreignness, even if they don't speak the actual language they were speaking historically, works if they're in an English accent,

like the way we feel about Chernobyl and Star City. Yeah, first of all, I think people just now probably associate anything that is period as English, you know, which is fine, because in some ways, like, it is a very pleasant thing to hear, It is watching Chernobyl and watching, like you said, the Star City trailer. Like Chernobyl, watching Chernobyl, couldn't be more pleasant. Couldn't be, I couldn't imagine a better way to spend. That's a spot of tea with it.

But I think people are also reacting to the colloquial nature of the language. It's not just that it's an American, but it seems like people are like doing a little bit of like Harvey Kytel, Brooklyn Judas from Last Demtation of Christ kind of stuff. Just say John Bernthal, which I fucking love. Yeah, exactly. think it's interesting to make a choice and also is pretty smart. And here's why. We can all be kind of on X or lurking there or looking on... You meant the drug.

Just looking at the film Twitter discourse broadly and being like, well, they'd fuck that up. And what's he doing here? It's like, you know who's going to dig this? Everyone. And do you know what is going to be nice for people when they go to this movie if they're not deeply familiar with this text? is hearing voices that sound familiar to them and so that they can make a connection to a classical text

and not be put off by it. Now, this kind of reminds me of what happened when Kenneth Branagh first started doing filmed adaptations of Shakespeare plays, and everybody was like either scandalized by the naturalistic speed with which he was doing the language. Or they were like, this is great because it's introducing a whole new generation

of people to much ado about nothing and Hamlet and all these other great plays in Henry the 5th or Remember the 4th Part 2. I think it's a really smart decision. Now, I don't know that like if you are a classic scholar, this might bother you. But I think the movie looks incredible. But also shut up, nerd. You know what I mean? Get a job, sir.

Come on. I don't get it all. I think your point is a good one, which is that. it's actually cool to take so-called sacred texts and things off the shelf and come around a little bit, play with them, see what's up. It's funny to think about as someone

who saw Kenneth Branos, Henry, like my parents took me to the Ritz to see Henry V. And I was like, cool, he has a big sword fight. Like, I didn't, you know, that was maybe the first Shakespeare I'd ever engaged with. To me, it still felt quite high class, high status. Yeah. But I enjoyed the movie very much

and I became a fan of Kenneth Branagh having made it. I was certainly ignorant, as I imagine any of us in America, were at that time of a certain age, that, like, Kenneth Branagh's story is that he is working class and Irish, and, like, he is not to the manor-born of this stuff. And so his act of democratizing Shakespeare, that's what it looked like in 1989. It might look different now,

but there is a tradition of bringing the stuff down and making it workable and playable and seeing if the stuff, it still moves, right? So the other thing that's weird to me about this and maybe this is just Twitter discourse, is like Christopher Nolan is famous for two things. He is an exacting OCD control freak about every decision that makes it onto the screen, and all of those decisions make a billion dollars.

So he wasn't like, oh, interesting choice that Tom is making today. Let's see how this goes. Yes, I think he asked Tom Holland to sound like Matt Damon's son. I mean, it better to have Tom Holland do an American accent than have Matt Damon and Ann Hathaway and everybody do a brief. accent to match Tom Holland.

Do you know what's interesting? Matt Damon, famously a girl dad. So it's kind of an incredible thought exercise. You know, he wasn't a girl dad. Be Matt Damon's son. Odysseus. No, he was not. He was not.

It all would have changed if he had been. Who was it? Oh, no. The idea of Nolan being like, be Matt Damon's son and Tom Holland spending weeks just sipping his non-alcoholic beer brand being like, but he doesn't have one. Reminds me of that anecdote

that Josh O'Connor put out about working with Spielberg. Yes. Where Spielberg texted him just undo the latch. And he was just like... You've fixed acting for me. You're a genius, Stephen.

And then Stephen was like, that was for my handyman. Sorry? Great. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere

and realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same-day delivery has your back. Getting you exactly what you need

fast and reliably so that you can actually join in on the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Sand day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's get into Gary. This is probably unexpectedly going to be the meat of our episode today.

The beef. The beef of our episodes. You know, so we had heard chirps about something coming, something Eben Moss, Backerach, John Bernthal related coming. But even in our position of kind of needing to know about this stuff just to program the show and also

being very curious about the the comings and goings of the cast and crew and creative team of the beef, this was still something of a surprise in terms of what day it came out. Currently, Bacharach and Bernthal are on Broadway appearing in Dog Day afternoon together, a production that they, I think, for very much, you know,

hand in hand a part of bringing to life. With Stephen Edley Gurgens. Yeah. So a creative partnership there, clearly, and they co-wrote this episode called Gary. I'll do a little bit of scene setting because I'm not sure. Even if you haven't gotten a chance to see this yet, it's worth noting what kind of happens in the episode and where it falls on, like, the bare timeline, which is not exactly like the galactic timeline of Star Wars,

but I thought it was no-worthy, which is basically, this is an episode that takes place about eight months after fishes. So the big Christmas dinner apocalypse from season two. In that episode,

Gillian Jacobs' character, Tiff, talks about how she's got morning sickness. She's sort of just announced that she's pregnant. In this episode, she is about to give birth. So I believe this takes place

the day before Tiff actually winds up giving birth. It certainly implied. Well, and Richie tells stories about this day in a couple of different ways over the course of the series, the bear. In the final episode of Season 4, he talks about it

to Karmi and Sid and in a very melancholic way, I think. And similarly, I think in season 3, he talks about it with Nat, but more in relationship to going to get spicy Thai food with Tiff the next day

and that triggering her labor and that eating spicy food is apparently like a catalyst for giving birth or whatever. This is kind of just otherwise relatively unconnected. I just thought it was interesting to note that Fishes has happened in this world,

so we know how that went for John Bernthal's character from Mikey. And Carmi has now gone. Fishes is the motivating event that sends Carmi off into the world. A fine dining. A fine dining and I'm not coming back to Chicago until tragically Mikey's passing. I want to say at the top that I also have a lot of thoughts about the delivery method of the episode.

And we should kick that to the end of the conversation. We can do one or the other. I mean, for people who haven't seen it, we can talk about the phenomenon of doing a surprise drop. Like, this is an episode that is essentially like its own film. You know, it's like its own episode. You don't really need to know almost anything about the bear to watch it. It's a portrait of these two guys at different stages in their life. Yeah, and if you're a fan of certain types of, especially like 70s filmmaking, like these guys are,

you will find something to recognize and maybe hang out with and enjoy. And we should mention that it was directed by Christoror who directs much of the bear. He said it was written by Eben and John Berndthal, which, honestly, after watching it, I feel like maybe they wrote some outlines and then they did a lot of hanging out, and then they wrote a little bit more, and then they hung out more. It felt very organic. Yeah. I think that there's a couple of beats that get hit.

Yeah. It's also worth noting that there is, you know, I'm always kind of like on pins and needles waiting to see like who is going to emerge as like a special guest star on a bear episode. Marin, Ireland, who's one of my favorite actors. He plays a woman named Sherry that Richie and Mikey meet in a Gary Indiana dive bar. They're sent to Gary by Uncle Jimmy to do a delivery. I think both of them kind of think they're running drugs or doing something criminal. and it turns out not to be, but they spend the day

getting hot dogs, playing hoops, doing Coke, hanging out in a dive bar. This is all with Richie having the imaginary deadline or imposed deadline of I got to be back at 515, back in Chicago, 30 miles away,

because Tiff thinks she's going to give, going to labor at 5.15 p.m. Okay, so in terms of the delivery method, like, it is, I guess it's not, It's not the worst thing to do to remind people of a show coming back. A day after this debuted, FX announced that the fifth and, as we all expected,

final season, will be premiering June 25th, all episodes as they've done in the past. I find this show's relationship to its fans and to its medium to be absolutely fascinating, if not borderline, perplexing. It really does remind me more of the, kind of let's run a race, but first let me tie my legs together, uh, attitude towards success that indie bands have had in our lifetime, or even that some restaurants have when people start lining up to take pictures of the food. Um, the show is absolute phenomenon and delivered just like breathlessly back to back

two of the best seasons of TV of the century. Um, and then it got bumpier and it got quiet. And that's not, and there is a like a meta level of conversation here that we should have, which is like, we love this show and we love covering the show. And a surprise drop makes it hard to cover the show. It's not about us, but that is sort of odd, A. But then B, it's not just that it's hard for us to cover. Like they dropped it on a Tuesday in May and it's not categorized with the bear. No.

So to find it, you have to search Gary. and as with everything regarding the bear the last two seasons, there has been, as of this moment, Thursday, no press related to it whatsoever. I believe that they did some today or yesterday that will eventually get up, but yes. Right.

So it is a weird thing for a show that, and look, we are not the audience police, but the show's relationship with its fans, and I think the show's reception has been, has changed slightly over the last two years, as the show has gotten more insular, more about itself and also the conversation around it has been less forthcoming. Like we don't actually, you know, we spent a year and a half being like,

it seems like this was supposed to be one season, but they split it. And we still say that because we actually don't know what their intentions were, and they're quite opaque about that. Again, no one owes us anything, but it makes it hard to divine what the tea leaves are saying and what's going on. And that just continues with this sort of thing that I can't tell if this was released intentionally this way to just be chill about it. Like, hey, we made you another thing, and this is all we do.

We're just whipping up something back in the kitchen and we're excited to share it. Or if this was, like, FX being like, got them again, going to blow their minds with a surprise drop of the episode of the year. And then it's, is it crickets? I don't know. But it's a weird, it does feel like there's a disconnect between where the show is in the culture and what the show is doing at the moment. Yeah.

That makes it hard to parse. I think the bear, certainly in the last two seasons, and certainly as some of those episodes stretched longer, and also honestly as the bear as a show became so big after that second season, I found it personally perplexing that they continued with the binge drop model. I suppose you could do Andor style and put up three at a time. I suppose you could do boys' style and do three and then one-one-one or however you wanted to do it. But to me, something that was so painstakingly made and honestly so obviously, like emotional

and emotionally cathartic for the people who made it. To have it go up and be like, have a nice weekend is strange. And yes, it does make it frustrating to cover because I would love to just be like, once a week we have like a really thoughtful conversation about the bear rather than, you know,

trying to figure out where people are and they're watching. And that's like a first world problem. Like I'm not really, not that big of a deal. I am very into the idea of creatives having enough freedom, energy, ideas, enthusiasm, creativity to say, let's take a little deeper on something off menu. It's honestly one of the most stimulating things that artists can do for me is to be prolific in a really interesting and creative way. So to make stuff that maybe doesn't always fit into the same box

over and over again, we'll probably chat a little bit about it. And this is a little bit of an odd connection to make, but I went and saw Katie Crutchfield from Waxahatchie last night with MJ Lenderman. She has done a Waxahatchie record, a Plains record, a snowcaps record with her sister, and is now doing this like small, well, not small venue, but like quiet, like sit down, seated venues for this acoustic tour of M.J. Lenderman. And she's about to drop the collab of the year with Kevin Morby. And a human baby. A human baby.

Congratulations. But it's like that's three different, like, iterations of her creativity coming out and all kind of one after another. I think the first time I saw Lenderman Live was opening for planes like a couple of years ago. That's awesome. Like, I think TV shows should feel free to do that. Like, I wish more TV shows did do, like, Landry's first day at art school or, like, whatever from Friday Night's. I don't know if Langey didn't go to art school. It wasn't Landerie.

It was Saracen. Saracen. But do stuff like that. Like, that's really cool. It would be kind of funny if they were just like, what's Matt Saracen doing now, 45 minutes? I dropped on Peacock. And he's just drafting? Yeah.

Yeah, I think. He's fucking dialing up middle of the field throws for Jalen Hertz. He's literally the two of the John Mangan. Listen, I have said the Chon Mannyin thoughts. I'm of two minds about this. And this is our way into, I guess, talking about this. specifics of the episode. Like that interest, which is really real, and I'm supportive of it, and I like the idea that they were like, let's get in after this and also let Evan and John,

because all good actors backfill their characters, whether it's their lives or just the moment before the camera starts rolling. That's part of a lot of actors process. And they bring things to the table and good directors and good writers listen to them and help try to craft it the scaffolding for them to be able to work in. So the idea that Evan and John being close friends developed some sense of what that relationship was like off camera and wanted to put it on camera and play with it is incredibly cool. And it's cool to witness it and to see it get the full force of Chris's direction and obviously the sound design and song music supervision and everything is awesome.

That said, I am, and this is something that's been a slight drag on my enjoyment of the bear as it's gone on. I am not really a huge fan of flashback storytelling where every important inflection point of a life can be neatly sketched out in 30 to 60 minutes that one's life really is a collection of one's life really is like a 10 track record with the 10 moments that swung everything one way or another um and so the so this was a full expression of that and I think that in that expression in 59 unexpected minutes you had to my mind the very best of the bear and the most frustrating of the bear.

All mix into one hour. What's the, what do they say about, like, TV, you know, movies is about the most important moment in a person's life, and TV is about the most important arc of a person's life. It's about the life. Maybe. And I think that Storer and Joya Callow and the people who make the bear are probably trying to split it a little bit where this is, like you said, the most significant hits of Karmie and everybody's lives.

but at the same time, we'll take a moment to just do a reverie. Although I guess every time I think of an episode, I'm like, I bet that was very significant for that character's life. Like Sid going around Chicago to get inspiration for her recipes and seeing architecture and seeing. Yeah, to be clear, having the runway of multiple episodes of a TV show doesn't mean that you can sit a couple plays out. Like every scene, this is something that's in writers' rooms.

Like, why are we doing the scene? What's the point of the scene that has to be? to have some larger purpose other than being clever or cool, because this is a narratively propulsive medium. In a meta kind of parasocial way, I enjoy the idea of the bear family, like getting to make stuff about their own characters. It would almost be fascinating if Io got to do something like this,

if different, if the facts, if Matheson got to make something, you know, like... We may get all of that. Sure. I mean, a lot of those people have stepped up into... more expansive roles on the show I was directing. I mean, I think you're onto something when you point that out. Yeah, and then as far as the episode Gary goes

in particular, obviously there are some moments at the very end that I think will have a huge impact on the next and final season. But it was a really interesting example of like, if Bernthal on this show

starts out and you're like, oh my God, like this guy came off the bench and threw a hundred and two and struck out the side in fishes, you know? And then there are a couple of little flashes of him. Like, of course, in that first season, like, the blast images of, like, his face. And he pops up here and there throughout the series now. And to the point where he's not just like a ghost or a memory, he is like almost a living,

breathing character. I thought this rounded that character out. more than I could possibly have imagined. And I thought that, I think if I can read you right, the first half of this episode of them, like, saying fuck to each other and kind of banging heads was like a little raw. And then the second half for me really came together when they get to the dive bar.

I felt... Like, I thought it was incredible like that. Marin, Ireland is one of those performers who belongs in this family and in this world. and it's hard not to think that because she's so, she's known by people who watch TV and respected, but I think she's more celebrated as a stage actor and is a vital part of that community. And so you almost wonder that this,

Eben and John doing this together while they were prepping for Broadway, maybe they know her from that world, bringing her into this world at this moment, releasing this episode, the day of the Tony nominations, which didn't go the way those guys hoped, but the show got a couple, I think,

technical categories. I thought that was really appropriate, and I thought that she was magnificent, you know, and it's a lot harder than I think one would realize to, not just step into a well-oiled family of a show and, you know, and fit in so well, but to create an entire person with a relatively meager pantry, meaning you have to show up and most half of what you're saying intentionally is part of a game where you're lying. And you also have to, in the span, not just in the span of a few minutes, but in the space of a toilet stall

become the most important person who has ever spoken to the other character in the scene, a person who we don't even know that well, they were phenomenal together, and I thought that scene was really, really special, not just because of her performance, but because it was really nice to see Bernthal turn it down. You can't, speaking about throwing gas,

like you can't be a successful, you can't be a successful, you can't be a successful starter in this league if you're just trying to blow it past them every time. They're going to figure it out. You need to be able to throw some off-speed stuff. And so much of his role on the show as a guest star is like a late innings reliever. He comes in and, you know, blows up the gun and everyone's excited. He was a fork at Bob Odenkirk. Yeah, exactly. Every part of that up until Bob Odenkirk, I thought you were doing the baseball analogy still.

That's great. So much of his performances in everything recently has been that, including from what I gather, a lot of what he's doing on Broadway. So to see him drop the act, drop the mask, and be really sensitive was, that was the highlight of the episode for me.

I think broadly, there are moments to enjoy about their banter, and there are moments to enjoy about, like, another overly intense catharsis spurred on by a not entirely fleshed out and temporary female character, that, like, and then the volume of the episode is the volume of the hour-long,

very special episodes of the bear, It's not fair to ask painters to change up their style constantly, but those were volume and rhythmic beats that felt familiar. Do you mean like in the tradition of like Claire, like somebody who's like, I'm just going to stand here while you have like a complete meltdown and then be like you're the best? Yeah, I hear you, I see you. I also wondered, and I think it's interesting

because you talked about how Mikey haunts the show like a ghost. Like maybe I am just prestige TV pilled, but like, post that episode of industry and also watching Widows Bay, I was like, I don't know if Sherry's real. Yeah, I think the more probably appropriate way of looking at it rather than is Sherry like a fantasy because that would be a little bit of, I mean, I think that there's a percentage chance that you're right, right? Or that's the case.

But the bigger theme is this idea of factor fiction. This is a game that they're playing in the dive bar where they're telling stories about their life. and obviously, like, it's better if you're very specific and it's better. And this is, Mikey's a guy that Ritchie has told Factor Fiction Stories about, or Mikey has told stories on the show where, like,

you know, you go out until 3 a.m. and the Blackhawks are all there. And it's kind of funny that Sherry originally thinks that he's on the Blackhawks because Richie's lied to her about it. I never heard the term ebug before. That was cool. Yeah. But it's kind of amazing when, you know, you think about this is going to be a story

that Richie tells, there's the real version of what happens there, which is Mikey essentially being like, you're a fuck up, you're not going to be a good father, and you should just get in my car

and drive and get the fuck out of here. And yet Mikey is this guy that multiple characters on the show like swear fealty to and are like, this guy saved my life, this guy saw me. And Bernthal does a couple of things

in this episode where they very, very specifically, or Storer very specifically focuses in on Bernthal listening. listening. Yes. And for somebody who's, I think, his addiction and his mental illness, the character's addiction and mental illness probably makes him incredibly difficult at times and incredibly charismatic at times. It was really cool to see that other side of that, which can be like radical empathy, you know, an incredibly locked in empathy. And he does that in a very, very convincing way. I think you and I have both met people like that. We've, you know, had experiences like that. So it's weird. It's like I just don't see a lot of other examples. of human behavior being portrayed so honestly on TV? I think that's a really good point to make. And I also would say that you're very smart to point out, like,

that factor fiction isn't just a bar game. Because first of all, if the bear just went on for 10 seasons, hanging out in Midwestern dive bars, like, be a pretty good show. And it would be one that I would be interested in. Seems like a really good time. The second president, Ossoff administration, we're just talking about the bear. It's like bringing back, but also bringing back Gary.

Yeah, sure, right. You know, the industry's coming back. The idea of factor fiction is being like the central theme of the bear, which isn't really about fine dining versus fast casual. It is fundamentally about the power of story and legend to hold families hostage and hold them in place. And the push-pull we have just built into our DNA of these are the people I have to love. These are the people I have to submit to. I have to pick up the phone when they call.

I have to go back to them. I am locked in this with them or watchmen meme. They're locked in here with me. And at its best, what the bear has done with flashbacks is highlight the inconsistencies and the despair and sadness at the root of what can become anecdotes. Yes. And that is a really, really compelling narrative idea. And it's something that the bear has done better than any other recent drama.

Because I think when it's doing that, it's doing it in its, guys as a drama. Yeah, I mean, sometimes the result that doesn't always have to be intentional. Like, if you have somebody like Dedi in your family, if you have complicated relationships or people who are volcanic in the way

that Mikey and Dedy are, it's not uncommon to be like, I have to re-contextualize what I have experienced and make it into something funny. Yeah, it's a defense maker. Or this hilarious night that this happened. And it's like, no, your mom drove a car

through a will-loving room and could have killed everybody. Like, that's crazy. Like, then you shouldn't have had to experience that. But it's like, that's also what happens in real life. I liked going back to the scenes. Thank you to the internet for pointing out the scenes where Richie is referenced Gary. Because I don't know when they shot this necessarily. But it was really cool to see the fact that there was a consistent tone from Backerach's

performance throughout this show of like, there's like a real. pain in the way he references this day. It's obviously something that really hurts him. And obviously the relationship with Tiff didn't work out. And I wonder if he's like, Mikey was always right about me in some ways. And it only gets to like forks where he starts to like reshape his life a little bit. Yeah. I mean, the beauty and power of the bear at its best. And I am excited for the final season to see how they choose to land it. Having, again, we don't actually know what happened over the previous seasons, but they made another season. They did it willingly. and let's see what they did with it.

But the idea that is essential to, I think, Christorre's worldview, which is that people, maybe it's only in fiction, but people can change. And people can throw off the yoke of expectations or the version of who they used to be. And sometimes you do have to fake it until you make it. You do have to become a suit guy to do it. You do have to lose yourself in tweezers and precision.

Call back to what we were saying about the Tony trailer, you know, about what happened to that real-life person now being fictionalized. It was also interesting what you were saying about humor as the defense mechanism because that's an interesting way to frame the show's persistent miscategorization that it presents as a comedy

like many of us do. And it's actually... Imagining Hannah Eindyne binder watching last night. Just be like, I haven't laughed once! I think I saw some of the hacks crew at Madison Square Garden last night. Did you? Yeah. They were on the wrong side of history. Actually, the right side of history, but the wrong side of justice. Were they on the right side of comedy though? Well, I guess they have

the last laugh. I have a, just to wrap up the Gary part, the last moments. Okay, so spoiler, if you have not watched this episode, you may want to check it out before I get to this part. You've been warned. Yeah. The last image of the episode is Richie sitting in his car. We are, this is, you know, more responsible Japanese vehicle that he has. now, the one that he listens to Taylor Swift in, the implication being this is shortly after, I imagine the episode goodbye in season four where Karmie quits, gives the restaurant to sit in Richie.

Richie's sitting in the rain in his car. He's thinking about Mikey. We are led to believe that, like, this entire reverie has been taking place at a stop sign more or less. Someone hogs for him to move. He goes, and he gets T-boned by another vehicle. This is interesting. because we, I did not anticipate this.

You did not expect such clear connective tissue from season four into the upcoming season five. And I didn't expect there to be like a tragic event. I mean, we don't know how bad this is or what state Richie's going to be in. To me, my immediate narrative brain went to, well, this keeps Karmie attached to the bear. Maybe Karmie now has to be front of house.

Like, I don't know. But it's a very interesting game because I kind of, when the season ended, but they were like, the bear will return. Yes. I was like, I wonder if this is going to be like Iyo's show now. Yes. And Jeremy Allen White will appear like four times or three times. Yeah.

But I didn't know what narrative reason there would be to do it again. Well, the poster for season five is Jeremy Allen White. Well, like Jeremy only looming over like a force ghost. but he's not the one in the car. So this would certainly give Jeremy, this would give Carmie a reason to stay in Chicago, stay attached to the bear, care for Richie,

become like a kind of paternal figure or patriarch of this real Brasado family, but also like the found family of the restaurant. That was my read on it. Assuming Richie is not dead, which I hope he's not. I am, I just admit it. Like, I have no idea.

That's okay. And I have no idea what even, what my feelings are as we're talking about it, I think that I had such a strange season four left me with such strange feelings about like, I was preparing for it to be over and then it's not over, and I don't know what, I don't know

how much more you can wring out the same towel. Well, it's a much larger conversation that I think we'll probably have when the show comes back about, that I think we scratched a little bit of the surface of is how much do you need a show to give you its intention up front? Like, how much do you need it to be like, this is in fact not the final season? And as you

start the fourth season, you know. Guys, don't worry, it's not the last year. Here's our opportunity to segue into Widows Bay, which is that it's a very, not contemporary, but like the last few years problem or opportunity. How situational shows navigate the business of longevity of delivering in the moment versus playing the long game that gets you clicking next

next next next that gets you optimized for streaming algorithms. Yeah. Which I don't think is what Chris is doing. And I don't think it's necessarily what Katie Dipple is doing with Widows Bay. But it is part of how TV is made now. And, you know, I always point to something like Parks and Rec being quite good at that, that there was an immediate episodic story. And then there was an overstory that would shift.

It's tough. I don't know if there's one good way of doing it. Briefly, when we talked about the first two episodes of Widows Bay, I offhandedly mentioned the X-Files as a reference point. And this felt in a glorious way, like you could do 100 episodes of this show if this is how they're going to structure it and this is how they're going to do it.

Or, first of all, I love it. I love the show. We'll talk about it. But in this, I don't think this is, I'm glad I have the chance to come out of this way because this is not concern trolling, but I did note with some interest that, well, the first two episodes did a very smart job.

of moving the ball forward, but then quiet resetting. Like, everything is haunted. We can't have the tourists come. Oh, it's okay. It's fine. The tourists are coming. This episode moved things forward to a sense that Tom kind of no longer can pretend he doesn't believe, A, and B, he and Wic are now, they're not going to be on the same page forever.

But they both now are no, there's no longer one's skeptical and one's a true believer. Exactly. They both are like, something fucked up is happening on this island. Which, again, they knew the show they were making when they pitched it and they produced it. So this is not me trying to concern troll what they did. But I was surprised at the harder turn into there is a season arc happening here of what's going on with this island. I thought, I did not think that would have come so quickly. And I'm curious and frankly, because I trust the people so much, excited to see how they resolve it.

Well, assuming, I don't think anything's been announced yet, but I would assume that there will be a season two. I assume so as well. There is, so this episode is essentially about, you know, it's the first day of summer, the tourists have shown up. It's a big hit with the New York Times article claiming it could be the next Martha's Vineyard. And Tom, as mayor, is supposed to do a ceremonial, like first swim in the ocean to show everybody that the water is okay.

the night before he is considering like reopening his heart and getting involved in romance again for the, I'd seemingly like the first time, I doubt it because that would be like 15, 16 years. But clearly not a frequent dater. No. Small dating pool on the island.

Small dating pool. And a woman, not mysterious, but like very specific woman who's part of a bachelor's at party. Or so she says. So she says is like wandering around the island. Tom gives her a ride, they meet up again to chat, he winds up opening up to her about how his wife died during childbirth of his son and that they've just been basically together since then.

Like they're supposed to meet at a bar at some point. She never shows up, so he's like driving home. And he comes across an old woman who he offers to give a ride, but she scratches him on his arm, thus starting the legend of the sea hag, which is basically a gruesold witch from the ocean who zeroes in on one target by getting his scent and his skin underneath her nails. And then Wick says that she will get into his house and he will become lethargic and then she will sit on his face and kill him. Yes. He sings it.

So it sounds better than when I just. Yeah. And then eventually Wick has to come to his rescue. But it is something that like, you know, we can't, we don't, nobody else can see the sea hag except for Tom. And really, except for Wick and Tom, right? Well, we don't know because no one was, no one was there. No one saw it in the ocean during the swim, but also, because the show is clever like this,

it's dovetailed with the relationship with the woman visiting the island. Yes, Marissa. She's played by Elizabeth Alderfer, who another one of these like... She's on AP Bio. She's going to, great, great, great. I was glad that the show didn't go back to the same well where there is a mysterious stranger that Tom opens up to who actually doesn't exist. The show intentionally did the opposite of what it had done with Tim Balls the week before

is the clown. Yes. where he says, I know what you are, get away from my door, and we do get the shot of her going back into the taxi with the other bachelorette at the party saying, that was humiliated. Yeah. So it walks a fine line successfully.

I did say this to you on the phone that because I took a chance because of the comedy part of the show, and my younger daughter was on the couch with me, I did fire up the beginning of the show. How'd that go? And it was fine. She was drawing on her comic book drawing app, and she was okay with it.

And I was like, I think it might be a little scary, but it's not that scary. And she was fine with it. And she was laughing about it. And then at one point early in the episode, she quickly got up and washed her arm and then came back. And then went and did it again. And I was like, is something going on?

And she's like, well, you know, the cat scratched me. And so, you know, sea eggs. And I was like, we're turning this off. So I did not finish it. Turned on. I turned on another nightmarish vision, which is other teams in the playoffs other than our own. Oh, in the NBA? Yeah, I think I turned.

Got a little Wembe going? Yeah, I got a little Wemby going. This show is awesome. I think, like, in some ways, it's almost helpful to have a batch of episodes to discuss, but was there anything else from this specific one that you wanted to highlight? I just thought it was interesting watching the show settle into itself. And so there is now, like, like the church bells, suburb. plot with the Reverend is, that's cooking. Yes. I really like the way the show is confounding me

with its commitment to all of the bits, meaning it's not getting cute with the haunting. It is also a horror show. It is just full speed doing both still, which I think is really challenging. We can throw after dark on for Top Chef, I think, because it's like a brief enough conversation. Yeah, we got to do a power around here because you've got to get to the airport. Lawrence won this previous episode, which was like not restaurant wars, but kind of, you know, and like it's a, it's a large-scale dinner party that they have to serve immediately coming out of restaurant wars. Right. They're like signing up for things as they are waiting for Rota to come back for Last Chance

Kitchen. Rota gets kind of the worst end of the stick here. Uh-huh. This was an interesting example of the show emphasizing a rule and some parameters of the competition. and then the judges disregarding that when it came to judging or evaluating. Speak on it.

They were given, I can't remember the specific, like, it was $1,200 for the entirety of the remaining chefs to go cook past apps and a main or some part of a menu. It was a significant amount of food, and they were allowed to go to Whole Foods with $1,200, and they had to each spend $150. And each one of these people makes a compromise. Anthony, instead of getting king crab, gets dungeness, and not even that much.

Oscar, who winds up going home, gets so much short rib, but has to be like, I'm going to need to get this down to, like, the bone because I don't have, I should have, like, another half of amount of short rib here. And then he makes a fatal decision, being like, I need to fill out my plate with starch. Rhoda, who is back from Last Chance Kitchen, is given dessert, which nobody wants, and she doesn't want and is kind of shy and retiring about what she needs to make her meringue

and, you know, I thought, I want to ask you whether you thought there was some gamesmanship on Sherry's part when it came to the sharing of eggs? No. Okay. I think the one hallmark of the season is that everybody's pals. Sure. That's fine. Yeah. I think there's two major problems

coming out of this episode. I think the one you're pointing to is really important, which is you can't give them a draconian budget and then complain about what you get on the plate. Yes. Like they're all, all the judges are sitting there in their hot dog suits being like, we're all trying to figure out the ones who did this.

Yeah, I thought it was, and this was also among the more like, because they judge them at the table. Yeah. So when they serve the food, the entire table of people are giving notes on what they're eating. Yeah. Tom seemed to be in a terrible mood. Yeah.

And I thought they were getting irate about certain things. like there's just one little bit of crab here. I'm like, crab costs money. Yeah. You know, like, I know what you want. It's weird because the relative poverty of the show in general is getting more and more apparent, you know, that they got, I think it was reported, they got like a million bucks from the Carolina's tourism board to film there.

And in return, Carolinas get a bunch of episodes indoors celebrating Duke's mayonnaise. Like, there is no question that post-world All-Stars this show's. budget has been slashed considerably. And it is doing a great job. I still think editorially, and like in terms of the design of the show, they're doing a great job. They've never been better at cultivating points of view and chefs and also relationships from the judging panel now. It's been great. But don't pretend you're still in the luxury, find dining space because you're not. And then when you do things like that, like say, we're going to challenge them by giving them even less money to cook indoors for the third straight week. It's like you're kind of telling on yourself

in a way that you might not want to. Yes. But the biggest problem of the episode for me was the fucking cooked gamesmanship of the whole thing. I don't necessarily blame them for absolutely sending Oscar home instead of Rota

because Rota had just gotten back. But Rota fucked up. Now, was it her fault? They set her up to fail by coming out of the Last Chance Kitchen and setting up a challenge where she would be almost guaranteed to be walking into a dessert.

Yes. That felt if other seasons have overly privileged those coming out of Last Chance Kitchen because it's like they're shot out of a cannon. Yeah, they're like, I have so much confidence because I've been cooking my food for Tom for getting a direct feedback for...

Maybe the thought was, you are still at a disadvantage because you were eliminated from this competition. But then if that's the case, have the courage of your convictions. Because this was... This more so than Tom being like, despite the dining ring mold on my plate,

I still think Nana's food was good. This felt like one of the most egregious decisions ever. I don't think Tom was wrong to be like he served meat with rice next to a rice dish. That was really dumb. It's funny though because that was another note

that they gave where they were like this is a complimentary tasting menu that should complement each other. And they had done the same thing about the canopies where they were like, don't all of you make fucking trim toast. You know what I mean? Like don't everybody make the same thing.

But I didn't feel like that note was so strong that, like, it was insane for Oscar to do that. Like, I didn't feel like they were like, if you put rice on your dish, you're going home. Well, if you serve it next to rice, I think that was particularly provocative. I think if that had been a mind-blowing dish, he probably would have won. But I did, I don't remember Last Chance Kitchen being such a play in tournament team in previous seasons. And I don't, if I was rode, I'd be like, what's going on? Like, I didn't get Seeker that day when, like, I just cooked again against,

two, Nana and Brittany, I think, right? And then I beat Brandon or Jonathan. I can't remember which one was in the Brandon. I come in very late after they've all gotten to decide what they're, not only what kind of thing they're going to make, but like the specific thing they're going to make. And then I'm like, I guess I'm going to make a meringue, you know? And then I'm going to do a terrible job at it for four hours.

I think that's the thing that was so galling. It's not like she got boned by the eggs. She made a bad meringue, needed to remake it because she didn't add sugar to it. it for four hours. That was a terrible dish. And it didn't fulfill the function of the dessert in the menu and they saved her.

Now, is the show better heading into the finale with Rota who prior to... Well, I don't know, because Rota has won twice and failed twice. But being like top bottom, obviously in LCC, she did very well. I don't know how much longer

she will last. To me, the other thing that's sort of strange is the attention that I'm paying to the mess the fuck-ups is way greater than the fact that Lawrence and Anthony are basically a two-horse race for this season and I would

be frankly shocked if Lawrence didn't win at this point. Yeah. Like they just seem routinely blown away by what he makes. They don't seem routinely blown away. They seem routinely pleased. Okay. You know, I think it's just been an incredibly underwhelming performance from the

contestants across the whole season. And I wonder if the lack of opportunity to challenge them in more overt or literally outdoor ways is affecting what I'm seeing. But sometimes, and I don't know if any of these people left would step up in this way. But one of the things that was always really cool about Top Chef was when circumstances got more extreme, some people would find a new gear, that they would be able to harvest the ingredient and then also get it done. and then also in the circumstances. Well, I will say in previous seasons, the one thing that you really haven't heard this season

is like the judges imploring the chefs to, like, cook their food, to express themselves, to take it to the next level. Like, it feels like they're kind of like, can you guys get food on the plate in time? And, since every... And follow instructions. And in a time when 80% of all challenges

are inside the studio, and Last Chance Kitchen is in the studio, and they're just pulling from a pantry or going to Whole Foods and cooking, like, they're kind of all... all the same challenge. Yeah. One has mayonnaise and one doesn't.

One is cooking a restaurant meal as an active restaurant and one is cooking a coarsed meal doing one course. Look, who among us hasn't had to stretch a few ingredients to make a meal last, you know, or make a budget last for the week? But you are feeling that in the show in a way that is disappointing because I'll just repeat myself. Like, editorially and like, in terms of like the hosts and the judging, it's as good as it's ever been. I agree. I mean, I still, I will watch it every week right, right into the second

Ossoff administration, you know? I think that's beautiful. Are they, are they back-to-back administrations or is there going to be like a brief interregnum for, you know, like a Christi-Nome era? Oh, that would be cool. I can't wait to see. I think what I like in governance is the same thing that I like in like an Uber driver, which is wild swings from left to right constantly. Hey, as long as you make it to your destination. Let's wrap it up there. On Monday, we will be together, but remote. So I will be calling in landline, cousin Sal, 2009 style. No, we'll do Euphoria and some other stuff on Monday.

And then just Andy on Thursday, it should be very exciting. I'm glad you keep reminding me on camera because I would say that my planning for that. We're not going to actually be together for a while. So you're doing Thursday on your own and then I do all of next week on my own. Do you guys have enough material after, what's the word? 14 years to just make like a soundboard. I gotta get on a plane. We can make an AI generated version of you.

That's awesome. That's awesome. AI, Andy, coming at you with me. I'd be like, what? I'm offended by that. You can just sort of hit it like an MPC. Not for me, but I'll tell you what. See you guys later.