The Watch - ‘The Bear’ Episodes 1-5 and ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode 3

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Richard Gere and Jeffrey Wright have been cast in ‘The Agency,’ an American remake of ‘The Bureau’ (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ��House of the Dragon’ and why it’s the best episode of the series (16:16). Finally they discuss the first five episodes of ‘The Bear’ Season 3 and how this season has gotten the most middling reviews of the series so far (33:50). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Dan Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman, and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Pee! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then, on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he's going for his star. It's Andy Greenwald. I think it's too much pressure, the Michelin Star System. That's my hot take. I don't think I'd want a star. I'd want like a, what do they call it?

There's like the, they'll give it to like taco stands. They're like, oh, this is of interest. Will they? Yeah, yeah. There's a whole. Yeah. It's not stars. They have like a, like a, it's cool.

Like a Michelin thumbs up? Yeah. It is. It is. Greenwald, it's Monday in America. Kai is here. It's getting a little hot in Los Angeles. Bib Gormand. Bibb Gormand.

Only one show this week, but what a show we have, because we're going to talk a little bit about House of the Dragon and then a lot about the first five episodes of The Bear. Before we get started... I love this part of the show. I just thought, you know, we would talk a little bit of news and the only news that really matters to us, which is the remake of the Bureau.

George Clooney and Grant Heslov were initially sort of attached to it. Maybe George Clooney was going to be in it. This is obviously an adaptation of Andy and I's beloved French spy series LeBiro, which we did last summer, two summers ago. I think it was three or four summers ago. That's how it goes, man. That's incredible. That is how it goes.

That's how you find yourself on stage standing Nick to Donald Trump and just being like, I don't know, man, Medicare? Is that in this analogy, are you a potential view? candidate or are you being tried for your offenses against the state? It's a good question. I guess we'll find out. But this was basically the biggest thing that happened over the weekend for us in culture is the announcement that Richard Gear is joining the American adaptation or the English

language adaptation of this incredible series. It's called the agency now. It was briefly called the Department. It's going to be starring Michael Fastbender and Jeffrey Ray and now Richard Gear. And while Clooney and Hezlov are still not. Eplea attached, EPs, Joe Wright is directing it, and Jez Butterworth is writing it. So I felt as though creatively it was moving away from Clooney and Hezlov maybe. I noticed this.

You feel, it seems important to you to remove the heavy thumb of Big Clooney. You don't want that. You don't want that good night and good luck energy and attached to this project. It hasn't been that energy for quite some time. In terms of it, you didn't like the boat movie he made, the rowing movie? The boys in the boat. Were there only boys in the boat? Yeah.

Wow, that's... I watched it on a plane. It wasn't bad. So Clooney's not woke then. That's cool. Do you see all the Horizon pull quotes are from Breitbart and then potentially you? I didn't keep scrolling through them. Did you see Horizon?

Did you know? I saw you yesterday. You know I didn't see Horizon. I don't know what you did after 3pm. That's fair. I do know because you just started firing off bare and hot details. I was doing my job. Okay, so a couple things about this adaptation.

First thing is, Chris, we podcasted about the Bureau in April of of 2021. Okay. That was quite some time ago. This show is, and remains absolutely perfect. One of the great shows in television history. I feel like they are giving this. And by they, I mean Paramount, which, if you read any other story about Paramount, they are completely

destitute and the laughing stock. If you read only the updates of this project, you're like, oh shit. It makes it seem like Jack Warner has come back to like. It's unreal and good. Yeah. They seem to be doing everything they can to make this worthwhile, which is all we can ask as fans of something that already exists and cannot be ruined. So let's see what they got.

Yeah. This is very, very positive. I don't feel, I think this will be very cool to see. I have a lot of time for Jess Butterworth writing. I think Joe Wright is a really talented filmmaker. Incredible filmmaker who doesn't always, to my mind, have the best material. And so if he has like just a crackling, spy show and he's dialed in and he's doing it. But when he's got Leo fucking Tolstoy

on the typewriter. He's not bad. He's not bad. So yeah, this is exciting. This is one we'll be keeping it eye on. I honestly, fingers crossed hope. Praying to Shari. Sherry, Shari, Shari, Shari, Shari Redstone, yeah. That she takes care of this somehow. Like, no matter what happens to the beloved Paramount and National Amusement's company. She shows the same fidelity to the French source material that she's showing to her father's company. Well, maybe this is what Torpedo the Skydance deal. She was just like, you guys have to protect the agency. Do you think the Ellison family hates French IP? They were like, we'll do this deal, but the one thing you have to torpedo. Or they were

like, oh, what if David Ellison was like, you give this back to Clooney right now? You put that boy back in the boat. You think that's what that was? Possibly. Do you think we should do a news break about the new Sally Rooney novel that got Kai Amor interested in anything that we've talked about? You two should cook on this for a second. I know nothing about it. I just know that there's new Sally Rune's book coming. I imagine it's about disaffected 20-somethings. The last one was called Where Did You Go Beautiful World? Yeah. Where did you go Bernadette?

Where did you go Bernadette in this world? Yeah. Kai, give us a Rooney. Beautiful World, where are you? I just keep seeing people like pop up. It's like a flex on Twitter right now to be like I got the advanced Rooney. Io had it, I saw. Yeah. Yeah. So.

It's September 24th it's coming out. I'm open. If anybody wants to send me an advanced copy. Okay. You can Google Spotify's address. DM Greenwald. DM Andy who handles all of my shopping. Kaya gets me parking validations and I hook her up with advanced reader copies.

Yeah, and we did. We actually got some good wrecks after our beach conversation. Oh yeah, a lot of tent work going on. Yeah. So I think that was fruitful. So now I'm just going to put it out in the world that I will take an advanced copy. And so we know what this is called? It's called Intermezzo.

It's about grieving brothers. I think this is interesting. an exquisitely moving story about grief, love, and family, but especially love. That's what it says in the MacaMillan publishers. They're like, don't worry. All caps, especially love? No, but it's like M-Dashes, especially love. Okay.

You're not going to believe this, but Peter is a Dublin lawyer in his 30s. You're not going to believe this. Hey, Doug, Peter, what do you do, man? Are you a lawyer? How old are you, man? Do you ever write long emails to people about your feelings? Because if so, no, I'm psyched. Sometimes I worry about putting an artificial cap on what this pot is capable of.

No, you shouldn't. A ceiling on who we can reach. But then we have moments like this where we're just like, our whole reason for living is an adaptation of a French spy show and a Sally Rooney novel. That we know nothing about. But look, I think the Rooney rocket chip is real because the Paul Mescoe and Gladiator Two photos dropped today. Remember when that guy was on our podcast from his like mom? I do remember that. Do you think that he thinks of that as the ignition moment for his career?

He looked in my eyes and he was like, what can I do to get on this guy's side? He looked in your eyes and was like, we're two weeks into this pandemic. I've already fallen this low. I've already done 73 podcasts. That is wild, though. I do think that maybe next time we do a mailback episode, can someone ask us this so we would actually have time to think about it? But what are the most recent projects that have launched the biggest careers out of nothing?

The bear is one of them, certainly. and normal people would be the other. What else you got? I mean, TV still makes stars, but I would argue that like Paul Meskull and Daisy... I have one. Euphoria. Euphoria is a good example.

That's actually the one. That's what? That's like the answer. It's like those people are all bigger stars than anybody else that we just mentioned. Do you think? Like on TikTok, but like Paul Meskill is like a movie star now. In the box office.

Well, Zendaya, but she was already famous. Sidney's pretty famous. Is she a box office draw? That movie made like hundreds of millions of dollars. Which one? Hundreds. It made a hundred plus more, right? I just want to be right.

That's all I'm saying. Have you ever seen euphoria? No. Okay. Nor have I experienced it. I was, I saw Paul Mescoe at a hotel lobby once recently. Okay. And he seemed like he was doing great.

Was he huffing a dart? But would you have gone up to Paul Mescoe and been like, I don't know if you remember this? But early on, when normal people came out, I didn't interview with you on my podcast. and you and me, we stared into each other's Celtic eyes and talked about how much we love True Detective season one. Wait, wait, wait. Would I do that or you did do that? I didn't.

Would you have done that if you were me? Oh, because you didn't describe me at all. I was confused for a second. My Celtic eyes. Semitic eyes. Would you have done it? No, I don't go up to people. No.

But if you were somehow introduced to him or brought into a conversation with him, I can be like, we've met actually. And we have a lot in common, and we're close friends. Yes. Actually. And I could have talked to him about seeing. You and I have similar figures.

Yeah. We often get confused for one another. Yeah, in passing, same profiles. He and I have similar feelings about Charlie XX, apparently. Saw some Glastow footage this weekend. Are you a big Charlie XX person? I've been a truther. I was just quizzed about Pop Girl Summer.

And I failed the test. Mallory and Joanna coming back from more after the Dragon thing? Amanda was asking me about how I felt about Pop Girl Summer. I'm the guy to ask. Do you like, what else do you like besides Charlie? Like, Sabrina? I'm like in the Camila Cabo camp. Like, I'm deep in these pop streets.

Oh, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, because I'm trying, I have to keep my kids on my side. So what I offer them is I'm like, there's a new, there's a new Sabrina Carpenter song. And they're like, oh, really? And I'm like, yeah, I got to wait for the clean version, though. Which is, but that's out the window, by the way. Does she curse a lot?

They all curse a lot now. It's a different generation. But also, I'm like, girls, like, 360 by Charlie is the best song. of the summer and on the new album, there's another version of it at the end of the album called 365 and they're like, yay, let's listen to it. It starts. I'm like, this is fun because this is like the remix. There's also the remix with Robin and we're having fun with this. And then pretty clearly, like, it's 365 reveals itself to be about someone who just sniffs cocaine 365 days of the year and then turns into like this like sonic hyperpop freak out about someone like having a

meltdown with a smeared mirror. And I'm like, hmm, new Sabrina Carpenter song next. So it's It's a tough one. Yeah. It's a tough. It's a tough one. But yes, I'm, I'm, this is what I, this is what I do when I'm not on night. It's pop dad summer as well. Yeah.

It has to be. Do you see the New Yorker cover? This boy, we're killing it today. We're about, we are on our docket are the two biggest shows of the year. And we've done Sally Rooney, Sabrina Carpenter. And the New Yorker cover. The New Yorker cover is like a girl being embarrassed walking in front of her parents who are wearing, that's my life. They were like, they were like Taylor Swift T-shirts and stuff.

I, do you know what I found myself explaining to my children the other day? You come in next time when you see each other in person if you're wearing a Charlie XX Brat t-shirt? No, I can't. I was explaining to my daughters that, like, I could take them theoretically. I'm not offering to, nor could I afford, like, Olivia Rodrigo tickets or Sabrina Carpenter tickets. I cannot go myself to a Charlie X-EX.X. That is, I'm not. That's too much for me.

This is actually a pretty good segue. Can I just explain to you as my friend what I found myself doing the other day? Because I'm trying to, like, you know, at least stay not relevant, but like, conversant. And with music with them And they're like, oh, what do you like? I'm like, well, I'll grow some stuff. You're like, what about gouge away? That's you.

So I was humming something that's been stuck in my head. And it's this Dominican DJ kid named NMML. And it's going to be on the playlist. This is our segue. We made a barbecue playlist. And there's a track by him that I love. And it's like tons of stuff thrown together. And one of the things in it,

he has like the Mayback music drop. And then there's like singing and there's, It's great. But in the middle of one of the tracks, it suddenly drops out, and he uses the early 2000s DJ drop where the guy goes, damn, son, where'd you find this? So I was making bagels before camp. I caught my, I was alone with the girls for a whole week,

and I caught myself explaining to my daughters the early 2000s DJ drop. Damn, son. Did you explain like, Gannon? I didn't get that far. And I was like, I didn't, like, say the words Gucci main. Like, I didn't actually, but that's... You went like, and there was a man named Who Kid who used to let off multiple semi-autic wetting weapons.

And, you know, Uncle Chris was kind of involved when the DJ Drama case blew up. No, I was so far in front of my skis when I found myself doing that that it was a real cautionary moment. It's worse than the New Yorker cover. Okay. But, yes, Segway, we made another playlist. Yeah, no show on Thursday,

but we will put up the Bransky Barbecue 24. I think last year, did I quite quit that? Did I participate? You participated. You did. Okay. This year I was much more conscientious. I was, I feel like I offered as much as I could. And then I took notes when you were like, this is a little bit of a harsh vibe. I pulled back on some of the hardcore. Well, it was interesting because you definitely, and this is also why you're very successful

media personality. You know, like you have a identifiable brand. And that brand is extremely aggressive hardcore. So, yes, I only push back, like, the fourth one. I was like, this gouge away track might be aggressive if people ever actually take us up on putting this on while they're barbecuing. If you are listening to this podcast at your barbecue, and you can get Kaya the Sally Rooney book, DM Andy, let us know. 100% DM me.

I think this is a good one. Because the other thing about this playlist is that it's all new tracks, which it hasn't been in the past. Not always. I'm proud of us, though. I'm always proud of us, man. We're still here. We're still kicking. If you can tell whose tracks are whose, DM Kaya.

Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah. On her finsta. I wonder if Kaya's going to listen to that. We should have asked Kaya if she had any tracks for it. It's not too late. Why doesn't Kaya just make one that would be better than ours?

It would just be Sabrina Carpenter. See? Do you actually like, do you jam out to that? To espresso and please, please, please, please. Oh, yeah. Yeah, please, please, please is good. That's good. Espresso is really good.

Yeah. I didn't like espresso when I listened to it. I was like, what's the deal with this? And it was just like, I was not a fan of that song. Maybe you, like many people, you need... I like some of the Charlie record. It's a little bit tuned to the like, you know, to like up all night frequency.

Sure. But I enjoyed brat. My thing about Charlie for the last 10 years is four out of every, with all over the bright bark quotes. Chris, I enjoyed Horizon. Costers done it again. No, the thing about Charlie for like 10 years,

four out of every 10 songs are the best songs ever. And then some of them aren't. That's okay. We live in a streaming error. We can pick and choose and you could just... Look at you. You're like the Shelby foot of Charlie XXX. You just...

Hold on. Let me unpack that. By the way, that is this podcast. The Shelby Foots of Charlie XXX. What would you... I think we should probably just do Dragon first. Yeah, do Dragon first. And then we'll do the five episodes of The Bear.

So last night's episode of Dragon, and you can hear me talk extensively about that with Mal and Joe on Talk of the Thrones, which goes live on YouTube, on the Ringervor's channel, and on Spotify, on The House of Our feed, and you can also watch us on House of Our. Last night's episode, I thought Burning Mill was what it was called.

Best episode of the series, easily. It was written by a guy named David Hancock. It was a staff writer on the Crown, or had done some work on the Crown. And I thought that the Crown's influence, the Crown's mojo, the Crown's magic dust, was evident. Did you think so?

I thought that the dialogue was crackling. there was one point where I think I was like looking away from the screen and there was an exchange between Kristen and Allison like at the small council meeting and I was like what they just say and I was like god damn it that was a good dialogue

Was it the part where they were like What's a throne? And he's like, it's a bit of a chair made of swords It wasn't like that and and so I want to ask you If I think it's the best episode of the series so far Like basically like Let's go Is the best episode of the series so far a reason enough for you to keep watching?

Chris, you're doing your duty. You're watching it every week. It's not just the best episode of the series. It's the first episode of the series. The series began yesterday. And I'm not talking about like history year zero. I'm not just like, this isn't the 2025 project. I'm just saying this was the show that it wanted to be,

but it needed to do all of its homework, which everyone knows I find like very, very, problematic and I don't like it, but that's over. Yeah, now you're in. Let's all... I'm watching the show. I think that the picture of what it's going to do now was... I think it was very, very successfully drawn

on two levels. One, just because it cast a much wider net of society, which I think is interesting of how this is playing out. You love the small joke. From the streets to the suites. It's right. I also think that it did... some very important things. It did the important thing that a show like this,

which needs to or ought to appeal both to the diehards and to the layfolk like myself, which is put the two queens in a room together, no matter how contrived it was to get them there

and gave them the horrifying knowledge that was told to us. Now it was shown, right? That it was a mistake. That it was a mistake about a prophecy

and they're all fucked because... But it's too late. But it's too late. Yeah. So, yeah, I was very, very engaged and I was very happy to see the show working as a, frankly, I mean, I'm not saying this to shade previous episodes. Yeah. This episode, this is in a way what you're saying about noticing aspects of the crown, which is also an Emmy winner for Best Drama Series. This had the trappings of a dramatic television show in ways that are very appealing.

very relatable, and that it just frankly, it works. Yeah. It works when you put that stuff in the characters on the screen. I thought that basically, I mean,

you alluded to it, having, I think, five, six settings for this rather than, here's one room in one castle

and here's another room in the other castle that's across the sea here. You know, like, I thought that getting out into the riverlands and getting over to Harenhall and having people moving around.

And even in scenes that felt pretty duplicative of pre-reliven, previous episodes, like, say, Corliss and Renice talking underneath the scaffolding that he's using to rebuild the boat. Right. That was just, like, really good stage staging. Like, Gita Patel directed this. I felt like people were put in livelier physical positions from which to perform.

And I think that they have been, like, sitting around in dark rooms for 12 hours. I also think that when you move things around and you bring a different, or more... You bring that Freddie Fox? Well, we're getting to the cast. I think it was important to mention the Rainis and Corliss scene because I think if you are already in and the show clearly is succeeding with more than the people who are already baked in

and who are fans of this, but if you were someone, if you were a Joe or a male, seeing those characters is significant because you have four knowledge of them and you have four knowledge of their relationship. And again, maybe it's changed considerably on the screen. I'm not sure if it has.

but with the freedom from those rooms from the same scenes over and over again from the same conversations, I took in something that I think has been evident but it registered with me in that moment which is this is the rare couple on the show that loves each other. Okay, great.

Like, give me, give me that. That's something I want. That's different. That's different in this world and it played differently. You know, I continue to think that that may have registered in the first season

if you're like, oh, how wonderful to see, you know, something that I know about, but there wasn't the real estate to highlight it, and there wasn't the context to put it in where it would pop, because it's just all happening in the same dark rooms, as you're saying. So I think that's a significant scene in the episode. One of the things that doesn't get forgotten about Game of Thrones, but sometimes I don't remember is just how much the cast changes over the course of, like, the decade that it was on or however many years it was on. And, you know, you have people in, for Sean Bean, there's

Patty Considy and you have like kind of parallels. What happened to Sean Bean? But I felt like this series needed the infusion of a few new people, especially bringing the energy or specific chops that Freddie Fox

and Simon Russell Beale did. So these are two beloved British actors of very different generations. But Freddie Fox, you may remember a spider from slow horses. Simon Russell Beale, my personal favorite appearance from him is death of Stalin, but I don't know

if there's another... Yeah, this is... Do you want to... Do you want to be on brand again? Yeah. Saw him in a remarkable cherry orchard at BAM. That's true. But he's one of the great stage actors.

Who was he in Cherry Orchard? Lopachin? Did I say that right? Lopachin. Lopachan. I don't remember how to say this Russian stuff. Anyway, he's amazing. He plays the steward of Harenhall, basically, in this episode of House of Dragon, and then Freddie Fox is going.

Allison's up until this point unseen brother who is essentially Agon and all of them's uncle and he is obviously this very cocky knight

who's going out on the warpath with Kristen and Kristen has to save his bacon pretty much immediately and I just their kind of

facility with all sorts of variations of the English language was very useful in this in this well one of the things that was exciting

about Game of Thrones always, it was the size and scope of the world. And there was the sense that as the core characters ventured out and separated from each other, in some cases never to reunite, there would be something interesting around every corner. There would be a castle we'd never seen, a tradition we couldn't possibly imagine, horrors that we didn't want to consider, or in, you know, or sometimes in addition to all of that, a great fucking actor who we either knew or didn't know but was going to make a meal of something. And sometimes maybe it would be a meal of that person's relatives, as happened with Aria later in the run of Game of Thrones. So I was very happy to see that happen. The approach to

Harren Hall is dramatic. And one thing that I do love, it's the very clever cutaway of like, it looks awesome to land a dragon on a parapet, but they don't show the 10 minutes of him very gingerly getting off of the saddle. And be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then like trying to, scaled down. He's just cool with a sword out. But then to walk in and then they're just having dinner, good. Yeah.

Like, I know that making a show of this size and spectacle is very, very, very challenging. But sometimes it's okay to just zag. Like, do that scene. Or walking into a dangerous castle, what horrors await? Deliciously aged venison. That's what awaits.

Okay, you got me. Sometimes it's not complicated. Did you find that the, last scene, the one between Allison and Reneer, was it all buoyed or amplified by your knowledge of these two characters

going back to their childhoods, which was depicted pretty painstakingly in the first season? No. Because they were played by different actors. They were like, do you remember when we did this thing that was significant to us early in our lives when the show began? Ah, yes. Friend. There was a lot of that.

Yeah. No. No. Because I have zero emotional connection to these people from the first season. I felt nothing. Just once check? But this season is doing a much better job, even if it's a little bit more of a, I don't know, it's pedestrian, but that's not a bad thing of like stacking atrocities. And they walk into that room carrying the weight of those things. Yeah. And they're like, well, how do we, they obviously are just like, we, we clearly like, no matter what logical games we can play with one another, we're going to blame one another for the, like, we're at.

You know, there was a thing in the last season where we were like this entire this entire meeting could have been a Raven. Like, the entire first season could have been a flashback. Sure. I don't even like flashbacks that much, but like I think it would have had more weight for these characters.

If their only interaction was essentially being childhood friends, then like show us that more recently. It was a gambit. Look, it was a gambit. It worked. I always feel weird. I'm trying to point forward because whatever I think of the first season, it worked.

I see a glint in your eye. listeners can't. We're not on video. But I see a glint in your eye that's like maybe I was wrong about these crazy kids. Can I see something? I don't want to bring up a source subject because recently on social media, I saw some very compelling footage about what really happened on January 6th. Is this a Parker Tiles video? No, although that was very good.

No, I saw you doing your live event last week at the El Ray Theater for Talk to Thrones with Joe and Mal. And first of all, what a mention. Here they are roasting you for not knowing something very complicated and obscure, and you were a very good sport about it. But now that you know about all the dragons... I don't. So you can't tell me how many dragons there are? I can tell you because Mallory has told me and I've Googled it,

but it's not self-evident from watching the show as a layman. Because right now it feels a little bit like when the Soviet Union collapsed and they were like, there may be 500 ICBMs or five. God, we got so many good movies out of that. We got a decade of content out of that. So wait, so how many dragons are there? I think there's like 16. A bunch of them are not born yet or are too young to be ridden or haven't paired or whatever.

Because now they're just like, they're a horse trading. I was up there and I was like, there's only like five or six. So I thought so too. I'm eventually going to get through these. I think there's like four right now or five that are really, they're getting a lot of the playing time. I got a sort of the PG and Bid and maxi of. Okay, I want to. Do you know what I mean?

But nobody really knows who's on the bench? Ricky Counsel the 4th is on the bench. It's not Melton. It sure not. I would say, again, no one's listening to my advice. This is all established not real historical canon. But I'm okay with the dragons having like Targaryen sounding names, you know, like Vagar, who is also our host at the Nordic Media Days Festival, I believe.

So shout out to him. I start to bump a little bit when they have like pet names, like sea smoke. Oh, and moon beam or whatever, yeah. That is a little kiosk on the Venice Beach Boardwalk vibes for me. You've been to the Venice Beach Boardwalk recently? Don't mean they should be named like Trank. Is that what you're saying? Is that a better dragon name?

It's actually not what I meant. Yeah, I just, I bump on that a little bit. Okay. Well, maybe for somebody like you, once it's like Sabrina, Charlie. Vagar. Yeah, Camilla. Yeah. Do you think, how do you think you would do as a Dragon Pilot? Because in this episode we saw... It's not something that you choose. It's something that chooses you, you know?

Yeah, but that's how you feel about... You can't just be like, I'd like to get good at this? Can I go to, you know, like an IMG Sports Academy to, like, learn how to do it? To work on your swing? You get... It's, you're imprinted with it. Yeah, but you're imprinted with the ability to do it. like you with gas-powered vehicles. I'm saying once you're behind the wheel

of your climate-destroying machine, how you pilot it. So specifically the scene that caught my attention, you were talking about it. It's Gwain and Kristen, and Gwain's like, I'm going to get after it. I'm going to get to this in. I'm going to go on the lash.

And Kristen's like just all of a sudden he's like Captain No Fun Police. Yeah. And he's like, don't do it. Not a lot of laughs from that guy, Kristen. He's a hard hang. He's a tough hang. And then what's her name? Is up on the dragon?

And she's like, I see you. That she comes roaring. She's all supposed to be patrolling. She's not supposed to. Because like all of a sudden, I don't know if it's all of a sudden, but recently. Yeah, yeah. They've all gotten real nervous about unleashing dragons, even though like dragons are flying

around all the time. They're all like full Oppenheimer about like, this terrible, terrible weapon that we all have. Why are you saying it like that was a bad policy? I feel like that's going to become real relevant in the next five years, and I think you should probably continue to assert that that was the... An anti-nuclear stance? Yeah, I think that's fine. I just mean, if you're flying a dragon...

Yeah. They're not going to show this. I think that 98% of the time flying a dragon in Westrose must be fucking boring. Because the only other people flying are other dragons, and you're just flying around, and you're like, there's a ruin castle. There's another fucking ruin castle. It's not like any of them are like, what exists past Pentos? that would be interesting.

Right. First of all, okay, second, where's the Targaryan astronaut plan? Like, we're going to land a dragon slightly east of the last place that we've been. Oh, so you think that if Agon went to the people and was like, fellow Kings Landing?

Yes, good at good. Members, yes. I see dragons on the moon. By the way, Targaryans are the Kennedys, right? Like, when they go to the one brothel in Kenny Bunkport and he's like, oh, that's cool. No, I'm saying that it would be a good policy, instead of just always waging war against yourselves,

to be like, let's just go over here. Maybe you should go into politics. A little bit further to the east. But that's not my point. My point was, if you're flying around and it's kind of boring, I think a lot of things are glinting. I wanted to know why she knew that that was, A, interesting, be relevant, and then see Sir Kristen Nicole,

the newly appointed hand of the king. Like, that is precision dragon work. I think that kids on dragons and people in general who ride dragons are maybe have good eyesight, like they're supposed to be able to just spot that. Are you asking how she saw a glint in the field below? I didn't know why that that glint was worth pursuing at full dragon speed. To scare them off. But is it because only armor glints?

I'm not trying to be a dick. Right. I don't think she thought it was like a Prius down there. Like she was like, I can, like, there's not a lot of metal going on unless it's It just seems like Flying Dragons involves a lot of both control of the steed, but also some breathwork, so you have to say stuff. Are you a vocal driver? No, actually, I'm a very relaxed driver.

I try to be. Defensive, keep with the road. And I actually, can I tell you something? Please. Before we get into the bear. I've tried a new thing in the car recently, especially when I'm driving by myself. I've tried to bring the raw dogging aesthetic to driving. Oh, oh yeah, you wanted to talk about this.

So no music. Only, like, actually, no maps. Like, going back to the original source material of driving, where it's just like I'm going where I feel like I'm supposed to go. Wait, no, that's being a Jedi. I don't mean with the flash shield down. I'm just saying... Oh, okay.

And then, what else was I doing? No, I did do air conditioning. So, like, climate control is on, but no entertainment, no guidance. Okay. see what it felt like. And I have to admit, it was a much more peaceful experience. I do that a lot. Do you do it by choice to like get centered? Yeah, or I'm just like, or I'm thinking about something. Yeah. Like trying to do a writing thing or I'm trying to. That's what I kind of thought. I felt like I had a lot of ideas while I was doing it. I forgot them all. But like I think I mean, I was inspired to do this,

not by like some act of monkish purity, but because the Boston Celtics were in the NBA finals and I couldn't listen to any podcasts for two weeks. So I definitely was nudged there. But yeah, I don't. I don't mind that. And then I did have to go without climbing control. That must have been tough when Joe Missoula was on fresh air. It's with your face when you said that. That's the meanest you've ever been. The playoffs are here.

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All right. Andy and I are going to talk about the first five episodes. Some people watched the whole season. Some people watch one, two, whatever. This conversation is going to be spoilerific for the first five episodes, which actually is not a big deal. Not a big deal. Not a lot of spoilers. I've been wrestling with this all weekend is how much of a conversation we want to have about the conversation happening about the bear. Okay. I'm ready to do both. I don't really know how to put this. I mean, there are reviews that I've read that have, I mean, New York Times, variety, like some

places that have said, like, it's not as good as it was in seasons two or one, or perhaps, like, it's truly, like, taking a step down. Currently, at least, like, last time I checked, like, there's, like, I think in the Rotten Tomatoes audience score critics, it was, like, in the 90s with critics, but, like, in the high 50s with the audience. This season? Yes. I definitely think it's fair to say that there is a discourse out there that's, like, this isn't as good as it used to be. Right. Then there is a meta-discourse about discourse about whether this is, just what happens to shows is that they reach a kind of fever pitch

of popularity and of almost parissocial fandom of like I want Carmen Sid to be my friends or like I wish Ted Lassow coached my youth soccer team or something and then that level of interest then triggers an inevitable

this actually sucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think all of that is pretty interesting but doesn't really speak to like how we two people feel about the show. I just don't know whether to like caveat that like I feel a little bit defensive

of the bear. No, I do too. I think we got to untangle all this because I think I love the show. I love the people involved in it. I love the creative team. I love the what's come out of it. I love talking about it. And we even in our more like

cerebral Joe Missoula on NPR kind of way, like we had a parissocial relationship to it in the sense that part of our conversation for the last three years has been about how much we are rooting for this show because of the almost the purity of its design, its delivery, and how much we wanted it to succeed because we want shows like this and artistic projects like this to succeed. We want actors like Evan Moss-Backack to be recognized. We want shows that have wear a motion on their sleeve and say, you know what,

REM is pretty cool. This is for us. we are part of that conversation to a lesser degree. I also, when things are done as this show is, and we say this both from just what we've watched, but also, you know, getting to know Chris Storer, like, I will ride for shows that are such good faith explorations of emotion and creativity. It is worth supporting. And the kind of knee-jerk social media, like, well, actually, it was always bad, is just despicable to me. In any context. That's just a dumb way to talk about anything.

Things can be different than they were and still be worthwhile. Things can be less good and still be worthwhile because making the shit's heart. Yeah. So that's my overarching comment about this. I mean, I... I mean, the only thing I will say is that the other thing that I thought about a lot this weekend was just the third season of Atlanta, which I don't think I was like... I was not like at least trying to come off as dismissive of that. but I think a lot of what I'm about to say about the bear,

it's like I could have kept that same energy for Atlanta. And instead I was like, this isn't working for me. And in ways, in some ways, that experience of the third season did have a trickle-down impact on how I felt about the fourth season, I think. And so I'm, you know, in the interest of like transparency and accountability. I have to think about what it was that motivated me to kind of be like not that's not Atlanta that way I like it

you know? Are you scared that if I say Sam S. Mail's name three times he's going to show up in the studio like Beetlejuice? I wish. I wish. I hear what you mean about that. Okay. Well, because it's like do you apply the same rules for debate to every show? And I don't think you can. No, and I also think you can't, as you're going to hear in some of my thoughts and presumably yours as well. like we are not considering all of this in a vacuum.

You know, we know things about the development. I don't mean we know secret things that we're going to speak about or allude to. No, I think if you read about the creation of this season, I think it's impossible not to consider it. So that was the other thing that I was a little bit, God, we're doing a lot of preamble, but like I... Well, it's worth it.

Yeah. By the way, speak about doing a lot of preamble, have you seen the Bear season three? Well, I was saying, you and I have been kind of chatting about this, but, like, I don't know how useful it is to be like, here's what I guess was going on in the making of this show. So do you want to do this instead?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am disheartened to say that at least through five episodes, I think it is a different show. I think it is a less successful show in ways that I have found confounding, disappointing, frustrating, and also maybe, to allude to what you're saying,

potentially foreseeable. The thing that Chris is speaking to that I think we can put aside for minutes, because it's speculative. But I am watching the show through a prism of every time we talk to Chris Storer and every time he's done other interviews, he said that he had three seasons of story for the show.

At some point during the pre-production, or maybe during the writer's strike and actor's strike of last year, FX requested, or there was a conversation, there was a decision to stretch the final season into two distinct seasons. When you have a show then that comes back and picks up the second after the heart in your chest finale of season two, and then proceeds to tread water, doing aesthetically interesting things,

stylistic things, emotional things, but in terms of the fundamental breakneck pace of storytelling, the show has accustomed us to, and when it does none of that, I think it is safe to infer that that is because they're vamping, that they are stretching, that they are stretching one season of worth of story, into two. Okay. So I mean, I feel like that is informing my observations about the show. If we just go by the episodes themselves, I think the first episode was beautiful. We talked about it the other day.

Yeah, tomorrow. I think it was aesthetically, unlike anything that I've seen on TV, I think that it is, and I've, the subsequent four episodes has not changed my esteem for the first episode at all. if anything, I was like, this is a brilliant way to do a previously on the bear that also deepens our emotional understanding and sets us up for what's to come. Then we have an episode

where Richie and Carmine Yule... Second episode's called Next. And they'll fuck you to each other. Yeah. But it also has like a four-minute Welcome to Chicago sitcom opening with Eddie Vedder. I loved that.

I loved it too. I was like, this is the fucking, this is the show. But it also, unless maybe you're supposed to see this all 10 episodes together, I was like,

just it's discordant. Maybe you are. Maybe you are. we don't know yet. So a couple of caveats there. That was beautiful. And then they yelled at each other for a while. Yes. The third episode is it's hard doing a restaurant. Right? It's doors. And I think, yeah, I have a different take on it, but yeah. Four was, is Marcus doing the eulogy? Yeah, it's, it's, and we're spoiling stuff. It's, uh, four is called Violet. Sid gets her apartment, gets recruited by Ever or gets recruited by, or not recruited, but, like,

like picked up like he our guy shappy pretzels uh heartnet yeah is in four and we see calm briefly and happier times although we're not really sure why or when well so that's so so four was the one violet is the one that for me was pretty wild because it is um rhythmically i mean it's kind of a mess it's it feels like there was a spinning wheel of like let's do scenes with these characters to see if we can keep digging a little bit deeper can we can we find something else here in this soil? Can we just keep going back after it until we realize that we hit something other level? I think at some of these, there wasn't any other level. Like opening with the long, tender flashback with Karmie and Claire. And Claire, it's great

seeing them together. Jeremy Allen White's performance is so nuanced that he's able to just tap right into who he is with her, which is a different emotional creature than we see in the kitchen. but it is a long anecdote about how it's hard to process trauma when we've had two seasons plus of a show showing us how it's hard to process trauma. If you are of the mind that seeing these actors do anything in any combination is great, and I actually sometimes am,

it's better than a lot of other shows, you're probably fine with this. If you are watching it to be like, I would like some forward movement because this show has told us and shown us that it is a show about propulsive change, you're going to have a different reaction. And the thing that I've found frustrating

in these episodes is Richie, Sydney, and Karmie all seem to be so deeply frozen in their respective pain caves for reasons potentially because they have beautiful resolutions that are coming in a season four that they are just locked in place. Why do they have to have beautiful resolutions? Or not resolution, but something.

And because of that, it's as if the bear itself has opened a sideway window in the back to be the comedy that it used to be and sling joke sandwiches out of. And it's just been the facts. When was it a comedy? The effects are working there. First of all, it was. There are some funny scenes and it's funny episodes in the first season.

Like, Carmi and Richie go into like the kids cookout, you know, and getting like hired out that way. And there is some, there is some humor in this sort of slapdash nature of like trying to transition the beef to the bear in the first season. Right. Is there, what's funny in season two? I'm not being antagonistic. I actually just can't remember. Season two has incredible highs. It has highs of all emotion.

It is pitched at an extremely turnt like spinal tap 11 at all times, whether it's fishes or forks or the finale, certainly. It is operating on a high rolling boil the entire time. That is difficult to sustain. But I think that. But overall, I think that, look, again, I think the show is going to be remembered. I think it's going to, there's many, how many episodes we have left? Either five more of the season, I don't remember if they're doing eight more.

Yeah, I can't, I can't remember if it's like 18 across two seasons or wise. There's not a single bone in my body that has doubt about greatness to come on this show. I think that the people involved are too smart and I've spent too much time thinking about what they want to say, not about fine dining. have some thoughts about what it's telling us this season separately, but about family trauma, about emotional damage, about getting control of your life. And I think that the show, the creators and everyone understands that Karmie's journey from screaming Thanksgiving dinners and sloppy, but warm and convivial, but insanely chaotic sandwiches to tweezer food in a brightly lit mausoleum in which the kitchen is,

is not really dealing with his shit. It is attempting to exert control that everything can be perfect at least in one place if it's not anywhere else. The arc of a character like that is to embrace all of it. The beef sandwiches cannot just be shunted out to the back.

They have to be integrated. My feeling is that the journey of the show is that the ultimate final boss level of the bear the restaurant will be family style in a different way. I think that that's the journey of the show. that I think of the show that I'm watching. However, because there are so many episodes to come,

we are spending an inordinate amount of time with Karmie stamping his foot being like, no, the nasturtium leaf goes here. And I think because of that, it's starting to feel like, is this what the goal of the show is, to educate us that six peas on a plate is perfect and should be done as opposed to...

See, that's really interesting. That's my read on it. I have not given that. that much thought to like, why are they cooking the way they're cooking on this show? I think that to some extent I want, you know, I think

correct me if I'm wrong in the second episode, is there a passing reference to Carmen being like we're going to go for a star? And it's like, but he's like, I want to do that for you to Sid. Isn't there some gesture about like wanting Sid to experience that or get that?

Yeah, I think so. That seems right to me. I could swear that that did happen. I rewatched a bunch of the first five, but like in kind of a choppy order after watching them all the way through. You give me a lot to think about there because I think that you're paying more attention to the culinary aspect. I really enjoy how detailed this batch of episodes and this third season is about kind of almost like on a granular level, the difficulties of running a restaurant on a day-to-day basis. Now, I think a lot of people will probably be like, that's only communicated in these little bursts. and I would love some like forward momentum and storytelling

and not like a flashback or a cut out like getting away from that to do this, that or the other thing. Like I want to know more about that. I'm very interested in like why the farmer's market produce vendors are failing and you know, the grind of one, two turns versus two and a half turns a night. And, you know, the watching Richie start to just not care if there's a fork on the floor. You know, and like how hard that is on a nightly basis to be. who he's kind of imagined as the best version of himself

because he had this experience at ever and he had this experience in the episode Forks and he's like, ah, I've unlocked it. I now know what it is to be of service and to have purpose in this world. By the way, Chef Curtis Duffy's restaurant ever where they filmed Chef Terry's ever is open still. Sure.

If people are trying to get a reservation, I bet they'll be delighted to learn. I thought that this season so far has been about how anti-climactic climactic episodes of television actually are because what happens is we want to have the night that changes everything

and we want to have the closure or the breakthrough or the moment of clarity and we want then after that whoever you shared that with is different the next day they get it they're more kind in the workplace or they're always

thinking about their teammates on this team that they've made out of this surrogate family and that just doesn't happen. The whole point is this is about what happens when you can touch Grace on one night and then you have to do it fucking on Wednesday. That was Curtis Duffy's last restaurant

before ever was called Grace. Yes, except you're totally right and that is beautiful and that is baked into the language and the lesson of the show. I think Joe's is my favorite episode of the season so far because it's about what a fucking grind it must be

to push yourself that hard every night and just watching these people essentially decay over the course of a month. I think that's well observed. I think that everything you're saying about what is possible or is or is or is impossible is inconsistent within the fictional storytelling language

of the show because the genius of the bearer season one and two was that it held space for the idea that life can be shit and that the impossible is often impossible, and that cooking, as with any job, is as much about grind and repetition and endurance as it is about poetry.

But in the 28 minutes of forks, Richie could go from television's number one dirtbag to television's number one purveyor of customer service. On one night. In one 28-minute episode of television, that's the beauty of television. That is not fine, dine. It's very real.

to me that three weeks later or whatever it is, he's like, ah, he's a fucking fork on the floor. I'm just saying what the possibility of the medium that Chris Storr and his company are using is that we can transform things in shorthand. Television can do that. Television can also, as we're learning, spend five episodes circling the same drain. I think it has a different effect. And I think it's not necessarily the best use of the platform, especially considering where the show, the high is the the show is capable of achieving. I think the turn from one to the other is dramatic and kind of inconsistent, much like the fact that one of the other genius things about the show is that it was universal and understood

because it understood something that only the very best food programming does, which is that it's not about the food, right? Like that was Bourdain's trick, too, in addition to anyone else who's good on TV. It's the personal storytelling. It's the emotional language. It's the universality. It's the travel. It's the people.

connections to various communities. Because we can't eat it. We can't smell it. We have no opinion about it whatsoever, right? This season with its devotion to minutia is making us look at the food differently. And we're looking at the food and I'm like, I don't, I see his obsession with the porkloin cut just so and it's going to be this reduction or this sauce. I like when they talk about it. But it's taking it very, very seriously and it's leaching the joy out.

Now, it doesn't have to have joy. I can't tell if you're letting your feelings about fine dining cloud your feelings about a show that might be about fine dining. No, no, I think it's all one thing. I think that's what's interesting to me about it and why I feel very compelled by it. I think that joy in it's actually true for any industry, right? Like behind the scenes of anything, whether it's a restaurant or a TV show, or a bunch of perfectionist weirdos grinding and trying to not fuck up and only seeing their fuck ups. But part of that experience is also front of the house. Part of that experience. Part of that experience. who's filling these booths, who's laughing, who's ordering the wine, who's doing these things. Or it's afterwards when the people in the kitchen go have a shift drink together, or if they don't drink, hang out, or go bowling, or whatever, they do it for that sense of family and community.

And the way these episodes have been apportioned, all of that is completely forgotten. Like, where they're acting like they're on a knife's edge every episode, the dining room is fucking packed. They're doing two and a half turns of a tasting menu. This seems like it's the most successful restaurant launch in a contemporary American history, but we don't have any sense of what anyone thinks about any of the food because the show isn't interested in that.

It's interested in Carmen's trauma and pain right now. I think that we're explicitly kept in the perspective of the people who are making the food and they are never satisfied. They're never satisfied with the final product that they've made, something happened between service and the chefs that fucked it all up, or they're just not ever going to be. be happy with their inability to get the flower on their phone to appear in a piece of pork. You know, and that's, that chasing that is really, look, I think a lot of the things that

it's doing successfully make it to some people unsuccessful as an experience to watch the show. And then there are also choices that they make that I think speak to your, like, we got to like pull the accordion out a little bit here where I think once you feel like, ooh, a little bit of momentum going here, like what's going on with this thing or with. that thing and like, okay, we've got a review in the mix here now. Like, what's the review going to say? Because that seems like a hugely determining factor. Then I think what happens is it'll have like an episode that's not about that. Or it'll be like, we're going to compress all of this into a six minute one act play and then have a lot of like kind of ambient,

more discursive filmmaking going on. And sometimes I do feel like a little bit confused about how much time has passed, what's happening one thing after another, or is this a little bit of a flashback? Like, there is like a almost like willful sleight of hand going on. I think that what's interesting about having this conversation like this just in real time is I think we agree with each other. I love this show. And my frustration, the more I talk about it with you and the more I air it out, I think it's almost entirely pacing based. I don't think the show needs to be a slapstick comedy. I don't want to avoid the struggles and emotional pain of these characters because that's what drew people in in the first place. I just, and I don't think, and I think you're correct every time you've countered me by saying,

but that's the focus of the show is on how unsatisfying this is or how challenging this is or how standards slip inevitably. I think that's what episodes in season three were intended to do. I cannot believe five episodes have been devoted to that. Do you know what I mean? I think that for me it is a it's a it's a will you allow it it's coursing it's not appropriately coursed for me and there's a feeling of being stuck with someone who is stuck which is a difficult interaction with TV and maybe the best comp for that is six season of madmen which I remember writing about for grandland I wrote a piece called men in crisis where I tried to do what I'm saying to you

now which is like this is the best show on TV and it operates on such a high level and an exes it's on such a high level in performance, writing, production design, direction, certainly in the case of the bear direction. But boy, is it not as much fun to watch anymore, and there's a frustration to it. It feels stuck. And I think about that because, you know, like last week I was saying that I think that when we talk about the bear, I do want to talk about it in the context of those difficult men shows from that era.

And it's, you know, Chris will come on and we can do psychoanalysis with him after the fact. reading things into things is it's easier. Reading creator intention or emotion or psychology into the lead characters of these shows just feels like par for the course. And maybe we need to move past that and we can ask him that point blank.

But there is that feeling of paralysis or stasis and the characters are doing maybe what they felt behind the scenes a little bit with these episodes. It doesn't have to be enjoyable to watch. It is communicating exactly what it may be intending to communicate. but a central tenet of the bear experience for two seasons was deep, deep well of emotional engagement

that went from joy to tension and stress to, you know, horror in a way like at fishes. But you could not look away and you were completely enraptured by it. And the strangest thing about my reaction to these episodes was that I was at arm's length at times. And I've never, ever been anything other than in the room with these people. So I understand what you're saying. I do think that there's an element to the way that this show

became forks and fishes over the last year. It's not just, I think this is a good point. But I feel like that that was the first sentence of the thing, if you were writing about the bear, or if you were talking about the bear, the first thing that you would bring up

was all of the cameos in fishes and the crazy psychotic family dynamic and the pure unbridled fucking Spielberg tracking shot up to a kid's face showing wonder of forks and how that kind of made people feel things in a way that they don't normally feel

in mass popular culture. And I think that obscures that at the heart of this show is this incredibly fucked up kid who actually is not like Richie. who is like kind of had a hard time, but is always the fucking funniest guy who walks into a room and immediately is like, oh, oh, replicants fucking. Knows a lot about Billy Friedkin. Yeah.

Like, is, Karmie doesn't have anything to say outside of like, how do I get this fucking pee arrangement on my venison or whatever? Like, he has zero life. I think that the reason why those Claire flashbacks are actually kind of useful is just watching him give her a cigarette. outside of her hospital or make out with her in the blue light as Susie and the Banshees or Kate Bush plays, is like at least I have like a, a Polaroid of this dude being a full human and not, like a dictator, you know? I think that's very well observed.

And I think, again, like, one of the reasons that keeps me on a very, like, clearly emotional level connected to the show is that the selection of stories and people and moments and vibes is almost always well chosen. They're put together in an order that is slightly illegible to me this year. It's not, to use a word that Marcus used twice in that episode,

it's not tracking. Right. The decision making behind the scenes is sound. I can still find people. Do you know what I mean? Like I know where they are in their journey. I'm not saying that a show

that is as respectful of grief as the bear is should rush Marcus along, you know, also just in terms of time where we are, like, because it's only been three weeks since Carmi's quit smoking, 40 days, so a couple weeks. 41 days, that's right. That makes sense, but I also think that Lionel Boys should have other things to play after half of a season, you know?

Yeah. It's really just about resource allocation and pacing. I don't know if John Sina being a feck would feel different. The two guest appearances so far. Well, three. If Coppulman counts. You count former ringer podcaster Brian Coppulman. He was very good.

He's quite good. He was very good in that scene. I want to know how much he brought to the computer. Because it's a very Copelman. Computer could have been in rounders. I know. And I'm curious, like in terms of just days. spent in Chicago, how many days did Copleman spend on set? I think he's on the Olivia Coleman plan,

where he's like, I come in, I fucking nail it, and I come out. Yeah, except I think that Chris probably booked him for three days so that I could have one day of shooting, two days of talking about Michael Mann. Sure. I think it's impossible. I'm going to avoid using a ham-handed cooking metaphor here, but I think that when you, when you're counterbalancing what was going on in that episode with, I think the John Cena thing could have worked in a different episode or a different season. For me, it very much didn't work. It had nothing to do with him because he is a very funny comedic actor and him menacing the other facts and him and Maddie Matheson's sharing the screen. I'm like, yeah, why not? Like, let's have fun. The basis of the show on such a deep level is friends and family.

Whether it's Chris having his longtime partner, Gillian Jacobs play a part on the show, having his sister be an EP on the show, or just, you know, when he comes in and talks to us, he's like, well, I've known that person forever. And so that person makes sense for me to have them. It feels comfortable. And you see that on screen. I get all the thought behind it. But in an episode that seemed so intent on ginning up a, not fish's level,

but the episode with a oneer from the first season episode of chaos, out of a guy saying that they should cut the pastry budget and they got to buff the floors before a photographer comes. Like, that felt out of sync to me. It was shot. Yeah, but like, I think

I get it. And the John Cena of it took me out. in that moment. It may not have taken me out of a differently constructed scene or episode in the context of that one. It took me out. Okay. Where are you with it?

I thought Hartnett was really good. Hartnett's a really good actor. But that scene, but did you feel, no, this is such a weird thing. How do you feel about all you can eat buffets, Chris? Do you like them? What do you mean? When you have like, you go to a hotel,

say you go to a nice hotel resort, And they're like, you could order off the menu or you could pay $45 to take everything on. Sure, I like all you. We can eat buffets. But I still control myself there. But the thing is, you do it with your eyes wide open and you're like, this is an incredible value. I'm going to get to have everything. But you do not eat $45 worth of food.

You're excited by it. And like, similarly, I'm not going to be a dick and be like, I wish I had fewer Ritchie scenes in my life. But the scene between him and Hartnett, I was like, I didn't feel the storytelling necessary. city of the scene. Now, it's not up to me to decide that. It's not my story, but it did feel a little bit like... So to me, I read that scene as being like old Richie would have been like this fucking guy with his cashmere sweater and his nice house. And instead, he can't help but like the guy and he can't help but tell he's good for Tiff and he's good for his daughter. And I think that Richie's whole thing this year is the paradox of he's always been looking for a purpose and for acceptance.

and for affirmation in his life and to feel like whoever he's enamored with, whether it's Tiff or Mikey or Bear or his daughter or whatever it is, sees him for the best version of himself as he is. And that episode's crucial because it starts with his daughter

being like, Mom says you're alone. That was a great scene. She's right. Eben is just... Richie's character has gone through the training and finds himself to be a samurai now in his black suit and it turns out there's not a lot of time

for life outside of that. He still got his gal from ever on the speed dial. But it seemed in the friend zone with that. She's about to have a lot of free time. Did you know? I just think that it's like

this is weird. Everything people pour themselves into leaves, it's a finite amount of a tank. So you're going to lose something somewhere else. And Richie obviously has dedicated himself to this very particular way of doing things now and has found himself alone with a fucking picture of a rock garden.

And Karmie is alone with his burned hand and no friends and going to Al-Anon meetings. And Sid is now in an empty apartment, moved away from her father, enthralled but also repulsed by what she's signed herself up for yet again in this world of complicated white male-dominated cooking. And every single person is the same problem. They're fucking stuck with each other. and the more that time they spend at the bear, the less a part of their outside lives they feel. Yeah, and it may be that in the fullness of time,

we watch the season or we consider the season with the way that the landing was stuck, sorry, in season four, we're like, that was really interesting to have to endure it with the characters who are enduring it. I think that you are, you know this, I say this to you all the time, I think you are an elite podcaster, but you are also increasingly just an elite engager of culture and sports

because you are very, very even keeled in a way that I admire and respect and am incapable of being. and the tenor of my reaction. There have been times where I've been like, I mean, there's even shows that are on right now that we are not talking about where I am like, eject! You know, like, I, there are things that, like,

I'm not trying to make it sound like I'm this, like, quick-roats man who's just like, everybody is trying their best. You're letting the game come to you, though, with this case, and I appreciate it. I think that I obviously get more emotional about things that I care about, and I care about the show, and I find the things that I'm bumping on interesting and not disengaging.

Like I am, I'm going to start episode six tonight. I can't wait to keep watching and see where this goes and what happens so we can continue to talk about it, unpack it, and anticipate it. And I also have to cop to like, there may be, I'm sure there is. I mean, it's the life of a podcaster, but there's inconsistency here because sometimes when I'm talking with you about shows, I'm purely a fan and a viewer. Other times I'm watching it and think, I'm trying to think in the mind or at least try to put myself in the mind of a writer

or trying to imagine what they were trying to do there or think about it. In this case, for some reason, I'm sounding like a development executive or a current executive. I'm editing. I'm giving notes. That kind of sucks.

I don't think that's a natural position for me to be in. I think it's a good thing. And I also think that there's something about this show specifically, and it's funny. Like, we made our only news item of the week the English language adaptation

of one of our favorite series of all time. Nobody gives her shit. Right? But that is an indication of like, there's so much content and culture out there that like they're they're fucking remaking the bureau you know we are watching a show where like songs from monster are playing and they're making deep cinematic references to Michael Mann and we're like ah like turn it up a little bit but it's not just that it's that the stakes of everything are way too inflated if the bear was

what it would have been 20 years ago which is a scrappy comedy maybe a FX would have existed then, but otherwise it would have been a broadcast show. And, you know, the best we could have hoped for was more upseasons than down seasons. Didn't they try to make Kitchen Confidential a show on Fox or something like that? Yes, during Bradley Cooper. Well, then they made Burt, right? Yeah, but Bradley Cooper was a character named Something Else Bourdain in the Fox sitcom Kitchen Confidential. But now, you know, everything is way too heightened, which is also the case of the backlash or the response to it. But, you know, we're told we're only getting a very small amount of it. And so we want all of it to be well done.

But that is not a stake metaphor. But the pressures for all these people are immeasurable. Like, it's not just how hard it is to, as we often say, like make a season of the show in a couple months and have it on the air. It's navigating things like Disney being like, this wins Emmys for us. Give us more of this. It's, and I don't know if this, I'm sure I don't have any information

if this is intrepersonally challenging, but the stars of the show are big famous stars. now. And so their needs and the demands on their time and their schedule, I mean, doing any of this is near impossible. So I'm not surprised that there's a, it's not a diminishment, but there's a change. And so I may end up looking back on my strong feelings today and being like, wow, I was really thrown by how different the show got, but things change. Sandwich restaurants become fine dining spots. Like stuff changes. I think that the tenor of my commentary is a lot to do the fact that I feel like it's still there.

It's just being slowed out or smoothed out or delayed. I think it's still there. I'm just going to have to try to book a table, you know, for an upcoming season. Well, we're going to come back on Monday and we're going to talk about 6 through 10, the remainder of the third season of the bear. We'll also, maybe we'll talk about House of the Dragon. It's so sweet. Well, I think this next one's going to be a big one.

Have you watched it? Nope. Oh, but you know, you've been reading in the old scrolls. I also know what it's called. What's it called? stuff happens. Dance with the dragon. Oh shit. It's like a TikTok dance. Yeah. We didn't even talk about Gail Rankin. Love Gail Rankin coming on as some sort of witchy lady. Oh yeah. From Glow, from Harry Mason, from Cabaret recently. I know you were a big Eddie Redmayne guy.

I'm going to watch it. Clearly I'm watching the show. Do you feel good about that? I can see the tide of history turning right now. Like George R. Martin's fake history? No, the Greenwald history of his relationship to Westro. We have a new playlist of America holds its breath going up when People like it I'll make it public right now

Just find my Spotify I'll put it on Instagram I love how you harvest those likes Catcher me Yeah You want to get a little I don't know how to make it I'll share it with you to post

No no actually How do you share it without making it open to everybody I want a degree of privacy on my Spotify account honestly Is that because you think Your music is just simply too intense For most people I just want to, I don't need to make what I'm listening to on a walk into any kind of social content. It's drug, it's my business.

Apparently, you're raw dog and everything now. Who knows if I'll ever listen to music again? Thanks to Kai McMullen for her eternal patience and her deft hand. And happy birthday America. I hope everyone enjoys the last Independence Day. We'll be back next Monday to talk about HOTD, bear, and maybe some presumed, who knows. Oh yeah, well, do presumed innocent. And maybe there'll be some more casting news for the upcoming Paramount show with the department.

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