The Watch - ‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 4-7: A Contained Dish

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the lack of a defining show of the summer due to the binge-drop releases of ‘Squid Game’ Season 3 and ‘The Bear’ Season 4 (6:00). Then they talk about Episodes 4-7 of ‘The Bear,’ particularly the standout, Episode 4, which was cowritten by Ayo Edebiri and Lionel Boyce (17:48). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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stand up and walk now hello and welcome to the watch my name is chris ryan i am an editor at the ringer dot com and joining me on the other line he loves a wedding it's andy greenwald i do love a wedding actually i miss weddings man i need i need my homies out there to have second weddings or something because i don't get invited to enough here's the issue i think i think generally talking about the bear by the way yeah we're going to talk about the bear um we have we have We had a little run. We had a nice little run. You know, people getting married like 10, 15 years ago. And we made the most of it. We left it all on the dance floor.

I sure did. There's a part of my frontal lobe that's still on Sean Fennessee's wedding dance floor. I'm still waiting for my invite. Because I drank too many gasolineas that night. But, Chris, I don't think I understood how deprived we were until we started working with our good friend, Kaya. Who goes to a wedding every weekend? Who has been on this battle? Lorette wedding train for what seems like years. I want to say years. Now, Kaya, do you think that

that's generational? Are you just more popular than us? Or is there some, okay, that one's obvious. But is there some COVID-related, like, nothing happened for a while and then everything happened in the last few years? I think you guys are just forgetting what it was like to be in your late 20s, early 30s, and like how many of your social circle decides to be married. It's true. It's true. I think we forgot most of our late 20s because of the, gasoline as we were drinking. I think that's possible, but I still think you're just more popular than us. Andy, it's great to see you, man. I want to talk to you a little bit about episodes four through seven of the bear for season four. This is our previously stated plan to break this

season up into three. A little bit of like news and notes and observations at the top. One is you sent me a text the other day that I found very telling about the state of things, which was I think a two-part text that was A, Squid Game is back for the final season. Right. Did you know that? And B, even though I believe it had only just moments ago or the night before been released, you were like, did you see what happens at the end of Squid Game? Now, I'm not going to spoil that for people who are making their way through Squid Game

where I haven't seen that. But I did want to say, this kind of got me down the road of looking at, is there something missing this summer? Like, I sometimes feel like I associate summers. our summers passed with usually a Georgia-R-R-R-Martin show. I feel like Thrones often ran during the summer, House of the Dragon, the first season at least,

I believe, or the second season certainly ran during the summer, that we often have a temple show that releases week to week during the summer. And I was like, what is the plan for TV this summer? What's going on? And I went back and read a couple of summer previews for the 2025 summer. and they're all significant titles,

but so many of them were binge drops that I feel like we went straight into a black hole of like, yes, Squid Game and the Bearer out, but like this is the most, the most acutely I've felt the negative impact of a binge drop on a period of time in television in a long time. Do you also feel that, you know,

there have been down summer movie seasons in the past and generally like... Well, movies are so back, yeah. But like in the entertainment weekly era, they would be like, oh, this summer has a bad case of sequelitis. And it was like a lot of the tent poles were continuations of franchises. They were cooked or people didn't want more of. Is there an element of that with the bear and squid game?

Now, we're going to talk about the second batch of the bear episodes as you teased. And I'm actually pretty positive about them. My man went into a microwave. They called Vinnie Johnson. That's how he microwaved up these bear takes. Got a little warmer. But there is... There definitely is fatigue associated with both of these franchises.

So I think that might be into consideration too. Yeah, the bear's not a franchise. It's just a show. I mean, that's the thing is it's not like, I mean, neither is Squid Game will be a franchise. But like, these are just TV shows that three years ago were the biggest television shows in the world, or at least in like our world, right? Like Squid Game was literally the most popular show when it came out. And the Bear is one of the most critically adored and like, at least among its fandom, beloved shows.

in this decade. Yeah, so anecdotally, do we have any sense that, like, is Squid Game still the biggest show in the world for the week that it comes out? Like, the takeaway, my understanding, okay, so my thing, before we talk about the summer generally, my takeaway from Season 2 of Squid Game is really based on my own personal experience

with Season 2 of Squid Game, which was, oh, Squid Game's back, let's watch some Squid Game. I'm good. Yeah. Now, I don't think that was necessarily the global response because judging, by the way, Netflix has talked about it, and their FYC campaign and stuff, it seems like it hit whatever internal metric

they wanted it to hit on their global servers. So season three, they're probably equally happy. And I think along with Stranger Things provides Netflix with homegrown IP that they can riff off of going forward for the next decade. But I would say the biggest, I think the biggest connector for me

about what's different this summer, and it's actually relevant to you bringing up the bear and squid game, is that both the bear and squid game were out of the blue surprises and surprises that felt organic, that felt natural, that felt like something you could not only enjoy that you weren't expecting, but something that really you could talk to people about. I mean, I've said it before. I'll probably say it again before we're done talking about this season of the bear,

but one of the reasons why you and I are still just so fond of the show was the experience of collectively discovering. It felt like a wonderful. full blast of nostalgia of how we used to process culture. So it's possible that there is a show of the summer that we haven't, it's not on our radar yet. I think that there's also a lot of, I think, to some extent, the streamers have definitely invested or seated summer to YA. So Ginny and Georgia, we were liars. Summer I turn pretty are all pretty big shows. Exo Kitty? I don't know that one. That's a thing. I'm not just, I didn't have a stroke. What is Exo Kitty? XO Kitty. XO. Kitty is, I believe, also adapted from a Jenny Han property.

I think it's like to all the boys kind of spin off. I'm looking at Kaya as if Kaya is 14, but she's not. I mean, maybe we should just call it what it is. It's Jenny Han Summer, and we're just not in that tent right now. Chris, as someone who glamped recently, I actually am in the tent in the same way that I was in a tent with my children, because this hasn't come up on the podcast yet. But my older daughter is Ginny and Georgia Pilled.

That is her favorite show in a way that, It is maybe her... There's mad murders on that show, right? She and I have what I like to think of as a loving agreement that I'm not really going to ask what's on the show, and she's not going to start murdering people across multiple states and marrying many people. You know what I mean?

This is the first thing that I know of anyway, at least it's a good sign that she's talking to me about it, that she has just kind of discovered whole cloth on her own. It has never once aired on our television. it is completely a her on her laptop experience. Yeah. And I have done a little light research on it. Can't say it's really ticking my interest boxes,

but yeah, it is super pulpy, super grabby, right? This should be your tipper gore moment. This is where you slap parental advisory stickers on YA shows. This is your... Let's lean in a little bit here. Just you and me talk, right? I think I'm going to be the cool dad. This is my play.

This is what you can do. Did she read or watch Summer I Turn Pretty? She didn't read it. She is aware. Checked it out. Not for her, she said. That's not her vibe. Because you could get ahead of that one.

Right? And be like, you know, but I think that would be pretty awkward for you too to watch. I think there's a couple issues here. Then we can get into the adult programming. but as apparently she is as well. But like there was a, I remember we went a New Year's Day hike like three years ago. And on the hike, she spent the entire hike telling me in granular, bloody detail, the plot of the Hunger Games trilogy. And at the end of that hike, I was like, well, you can only parent them for so long.

You know what I mean? It's like you can build a ship and then the ship must go out to the ocean. And she now knows things that I never even want to know. So, yeah, how do you think it's going, my cool parenting? Just like, again, just too nice. Yeah, I think that you probably just need to go meet her where she is and you can't really expect her to say like, oh, you know, dad, like, what's a cool movie I should watch this summer, you know, like, you know, squid in the whale? Like, I don't know.

Like, you can't bring them like your sensibility. You have to let them bring it to you. Yes. So thus, Ginny Georgia is on repeat. So, yeah, I mean, look, there's a couple extrapolations. could make. I mean, you were suggesting if this is a sign that we have, like, outsourced our entertainment to young audiences, but, like, are you familiar with the Marvel universe? Like, everything is for young audiences. It does seem strange to me that for all the ways that the streamers,

in less so in recent years, but certainly, like, in the first few years of Netflix's dominance, like, they were being pretty smart about seasonal counter-programming. Remember, we used to talk about how Netflix figured out that actually, you know, contra the way schedulings have been done for decades, holidays are a prime time to put your content up. You have a captive audience family at home. What that, you know, that means the press might not be, they might be on vacation, but Netflix doesn't really care about that or care about us. It is kind of surprising that some of these streamers haven't really aggressively programmed, I guess I would say, like thinking persons or adult programming in the summer, which is, you know, more traditionally like, you know,

Jurassic World keeps getting reborn on the big screen. But, A, there's always kind of some stuff, like Department Q is a summer show, but B, the other thing is- I want to talk about Gilded Age.

The other thing is just that we're still kind of, we're still seeing the after effects of the strike. Like, yes, it is a major, major problem for everyone, creators, streamers, consumers, podcasters that, like,

CGI-heavy shows, consensus shows like House of the Dragon take two years to make. But had the strike not happened, I'm not saying that would have been on this summer, but something would have been on in the summer. And also, I think that we need to probably be aware of our own biases where there are and is seemingly now a 12-month-a-year Apple TV schedule that is like up running and fully pumping out shows. So Stick is on, which we both checked out and weren't really into Smoke,

which is the Dennis Lehane show at Tarynx. We should check out. is out now and the first three episodes came out. Morning show is coming back. They basically have a new show every five weeks pretty much, if not more frequently than that. So there's a lot of Apple stuff. And then on HBO, Gilded Age is the Sunday Night show. And then just like that is the sort of midweek show that they have. And I'm sure both do quite well. We just haven't really chatted deeply about it. Okay. So I asked you to do this. And there was a glamping plot line on and just like that.

week. Oh, how'd they do? They went to Governor's Island. Oh, famous, famous outdoorsy location. There actually was a very amusing plot on it just like that this week where Carrie and Miranda are forced to, not forced to, but they are roommates for a week because Miranda's

having some real estate difficulties. And they have a lot of like, you know, first it's a bunch of nostalgia about how they used to live on Bank Street back in the 90s together and how fun that was. and then instantaneously, it's like Miranda eats Carrie's last yogurt, and it's like War of the Roses. And I was kind of wondering what it would be like if we live together.

Could you tell, okay, so many great topics springing off of this, just branching off into a delightful podcast tree. My first question for you is, just off the dome, could you tell me Carrie and Miranda's rank choice voting in the recent Democratic primary? I think they're lander people, yeah. I think maybe best case scenario. No, I think Carrie, like, puts Scott Stringer first

because she respects, like, just long-term professionalism in office. Uh-huh. I think she probably put Lander... Miranda's... No, Miranda Mada Gonzo. Cynthia Nixon. Because she works for Human Rights Watch kind of stuff now. Like, she does a lot of, like...

Yeah. She's... Okay, fine. I think she could be... She's convertible. You know what I mean? Like, she's probably okay with... She is now, like, let's rally around the blue.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I swear to God, I have not watched a frame of and just like that. But I think Carrie is right now meeting with significant business leaders wondering, like, who they can put on. You think Carrie and Bill Ackman? I think Carrie and Bill Ackman. I think they're taking a meeting with Eric Adams, being like, he's suggestible. Maybe we could suggest some things.

Why are we talking so much about the New York mayor race on this podcast now? Because I want that enthusiasm back in my life. I just drove through a police action to get here. You know what I mean? I want to go glamping on Governor's Island for God's sake. Okay, if we live together, and obviously we would watch the bear, we are going to keep talking about it, what do you think would happen? Well, I would ask you to watch Gilded Age with me.

That's it. That would be the only... No, I think if we live together, if I had to be completely honest, we would start one of the greatest career modes on FIFA ever seen. This is such a dream. We would talk about our youth program all the time for Nottingham Forest

and how we were like building up the academy. And we would trade off seasons. Like, I have to go play every European match tonight. I'll see you later. One of my favorite things about us living together is that I no longer have children. So, because in my version of this, I talk about, I talk about my kids. And then you talk about your quote unquote youth program.

You know what I mean? And like that's how we find a way to connect. Yeah. I think we should just get an apartment in New York. We could just like we could vote in the mayoral race. You know, we could play video games whatever you want. I'm not paying fucking New York rent just to vote for Zorri. That's not what I'm doing.

I'm saying, you know, you're liquid. If we get stabilized, if he wins and we can get a cap on that, maybe I'll go back. Do you think you're one of the working people that he's campaigning for? I work a lot. Do you do work a lot? Okay, Gilded Age, though, for real, I've been teasing this. I don't mean to make you go off the dome again, but like I am a suggestible voter. You know what I mean?

Andy, I can only do so much, man. You got to check it out. I honestly do feel like if you started season three episode one, you would be able to deduce what's going on fairly quickly, even though we are so deep and so far into the rabbit hole of so many plots. There's like 20 different plot lines going from which butlers are rude and which maids are rude versus like which butler wants to create the new alarm clock. There's a bunch of stuff going on with the industrial age.

And just it's just a lot of Carrie Coon being a boss bitch and just. and trying to get her daughter married to a Duke even though she's in love with a different guy. That's a pretty good sales job. Cynthia Nixon and Christine Berensky lived together as widower sisters. That's us. Yeah.

That's us. If they had FIFA, like, who knows? Maybe they could get, well, first of all, butlers are inventing alarm clocks. Like, how far away are they from PlayStation's in this version of American history? If we fostered, we incubated that talent? Correctly, yeah.

Can you just give me, though, like, not just specifically me. You don't need to be like, and they go to local spice markets. Like, you don't need to give the AG version of why I should watch Gilded Age. I genuinely think for people who have heard the first part of this conversation, and they're like, what am I, what's my obsession this summer? Maybe they used to F with Downton Abbey a little bit, so they're not immune to the terms of a show like that, and obviously as the same creator. But they have been digging the pit, or maybe they're off of The Last of Us.

Like, what is your pitch? Like, your penny stocks, you like TV, you're a little bored right now. Is it purely Carrie Coon is a boss bitch? The most expensive soap opera I've ever seen starring every single great Broadway actor we have. There you go. Kaya, did that work on you? She says maybe. Not enough to lean forward into the microphone, but she did.

Okay. She said maybe. Should we get into the 4-3-7 run of the Bear season two? Guy is just Googling X-O-Kitty spoilers in the corner, I can tell. She's completely checked out on this discourse. We have to talk about the bear now. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

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So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash. Terms apply. Okay, so when we last spoke, Andy was, I would say, pretty tepid,

pretty alarmed by the first three episodes. I was. As was I, on my first viewing of them, I liked three more than the first two. And then I was like, you know, but as the season goes on, as you sort of start to see maybe where things are going, as you watch certain plot lines,

emerge out of the montages, out of the, the vibey filmmaking, which I also am a fan of. Maybe the first three episodes start to make a little bit more sense, and maybe in general, like the season coheres. I think one of the things that's challenging about the way that we're talking about this, which is very humane to just say, hey, we're going to talk about this hour and a half to two-hour block of TV. I think the entire season's a little bit more than six hours is that it's not made that way. I don't think it's really been made as a, hey, here's the second.

and now everything is being set up for the end or anything like that. Episodes don't necessarily have cliffhangers, and when they do, I think you can kind of feel like, oh, I have a feeling it's going to go one way or another. This is more about like the challenge that this person has to overcome to get to the next stage in their personhood. I was curious whether or not you started to feel the seasonal coherence around this second batch of episodes. I love the question. I also love the way you've set me up. I like these episodes a lot,

and there's things that I loved, and we're going to talk about them. But you have managed to formulate a question that's going to lead me off in a negative way. Oh, okay. So kudos. This is just, God, we've only been living together for 10 minutes. Friction's already starting.

I just feel like you're always putting me in a bad mood, Chris. Can't you just support me and my choices for how I want to start the day? this season of television, if you look at it as a season of television of 10 episodes, is psychotic. It is a chaos menu. And I do not feel differently about the first three after watching the much better for the OK5, the really good six, and the really pretty wonderful seven. I do not feel at all differently about the first three. This is, and I promise myself I wouldn't start with a food metaphor, but here I am.

This is like going to a restaurant that explains its menu to you and says, the kitchen's just going to send out dishes as they're ready. Yeah, right. But then you've been there for 10 minutes. Three dishes are on your table, and one of them's a dessert, and then they clear them and bring you a perfectly plated entree. And then before you're done the entree, they throw it on the ground and bring you six more plates of tapas. because episode four, which is sort of a Sydney, you know, a bottle episode is overused. It's not really a bottle episode, but it is separate. Four, five, and six is, I think, fair to say is like a Sydney arc.

It is a showcase for I.O. Debris, it absolutely can be grouped that way. But particularly four is not like the other ones in terms of its focus, in terms of its complete remove from the Brasado family, extended family drama. Genica Bravo directed it in a style that is quite different, I think, visually from Christor. And it is a contained dish. And I think you could say the same thing about seven, even though, you know, Odin Kirk's avail for one day. Okay. You could feel some of the labor going on behind the scenes, but it is absolutely a contained statement.

That said, there are moments of such... beauty and grace and thoughtfulness in these four episodes that, God, it forgives a lot of sins. You know, this is, I'm going to make this. I'm going to try to make this the last restaurant metaphor I can, but I think it's actually very useful for the discussion of this show. I am a big, big, big, big believer. And I'm actually, I feel like we've asked Chris store a version of this in the past. I'm a big believer that food is maybe, maybe top five reasons that a restaurant meal is good, except in very, very rare occasions. It is almost entirely the service, the vibe, the company. You forget food. Even the best food you've ever eaten.

It's very, very hard to remember course to course. You remember the experience of being there and having eaten it. And so to that, if you believe in that, then yeah, I'm not, I was alarmed after the first three episodes. That's in my rear view. I don't have the desire to revisit them, but I also don't feel, I don't have the sour taste in my mouth anymore. Yeah, I guess, you know,

it's really more experiential. I don't, many people, most, I would say 90% of people listening to this or with Disney Plus or Hulu accounts don't have six hours to watch all of the bear in a night or whatever, maybe in two days. But I wonder whether or not

the experience is different the more episodes you watch. Because while it may be very frustrating to start episode after episode and feel like, you know, one of the things that I observed is that, you know, something consequential will happen or you'll get to a point

Sid's going to make a phone call, Sid's going to make a decision, something is going to happen. And then the subsequent 17, 11 to 17 minutes of television is quite beautiful, but it is, it's wandering. It's intuitive.

It's, hey, like, here's, here's people helping each other. Here's people talking about what they're afraid of. Here's people talking about their insecurities. Here's a slight comic scene with the facts. Like, it's not like, this has to happen so that this can happen so that this can happen. It's way more slice of life. But I think what I was reacting to in the first few episodes and got used to in the second batch

of episodes to some extent was the fact that the slice of life is very specific. The slice of life does not include diners at all. Like, there's never a situational kind of like, right. This person, I mean, yeah, you have the whole thing with the critics and the Michelin Star and, like, whether or not they're going to get one or whatever. But you would think, if you wanted to make a 10-season show about a restaurant

or even a four-season show about a restaurant, one of the things you could do is pull a bunch of restauranteurs and be like, what are some funny things that have happened in your restaurant or some crazy things that have happened in your restaurant, or some dramatic things that have happened in your restaurant. And the bear is almost entirely behind the scenes. Back of the house.

You know, it's back of the house. Now, I wonder whether or not part of the reason why, like, my emotional reactions come when Richie creates snow for a cancer survivor is not just because of its beauty, because it's a sentimental moment with a person who's overcome something, but because it's a different, it's not a risotto. And it's somebody who's, like, come to this restaurant. and you finally get to see the face and the feelings of someone who's experiencing the dining rather than laboring over it and dying for it.

Look, shows are ultimately a reflection or an expression of what the creators are interested in. And the bear isn't that interested in the food either anymore. Like there are two examples of, I'm not counting Tina making a cauliflower dish for her husband in this. Like in these episodes, there's two examples of plated. dishes being tasted, savored, and celebrated. It's Marcus's beautiful dessert. The one that cracks apart? You eat the dish. Yeah. Yeah. And Shiso, chef. It's Shiso. And Sydney making a perfect two-component maybe because of the-

scallop. The scallop. But they're like, they've lost all the other opportunities to do it. And so both of those dishes are in the service of Carmen recognizing the talent in others and stepping back, which is basically his storyline this season. I think that there is no, I think that one of the frustrating experiences of watching the show is that when, if we are operating under the assumption, again, we have never had this officially confirmed, but if we continue to operate under the assumption, and frankly at this point, there's very little plausible alternative that they agreed to make more episodes without necessarily making more story, they didn't, they, they were two choices. One of the choices was to celebrate episodes and create episodes like episode four, which is like, okay, we have a little more time and space than we thought. What else can we do with it? And I think one of the smartest, and it was really exciting. Opportunities that Chris and Joanna as showrunners took was they empowered I.O., who's been increasingly more involved

creatively, as I think many of the people in front of the cameras have been. She directed last season. This episode she co-wrote with Lionel Boys, who plays Marcus, and Janix O'Baro comes in and directs it. And this is an episode that I, that I, as a white dude in his 40s, feels comfortable saying, could only have been written by black artists who are younger. And it reflects that experience. There's elements to it that we're really thrilling to see suddenly on this show. A, no brazzados. B, Sidney's hair. What that means to her. what it takes to have it done. And then the introduction of Chantel,

like the brilliant Danielle Deadweiler, there's a moment in, she's so good. And again, what is one of the things that Bear does well? Guestcasting. And she comes on

and there's a moment early in the episode before you sort of get lost in the emotional hamburger helper of what's to come. When she gets, she's doing Sydney's hair and she gets a call and she code switches so fast

you like, my neck snaps. And that's performance, but that's also insight and perspective. And that is an example of the show successfully taking the opportunity of more time to add nuance and shading to otherwise very internal dilemma, which is Sydney's going to have to make a decision.

Carmen also has one of those. Carmen's going to have to make a decision about whether to stop being sad or not. That's extremely internal. And watching him eat a scallop and be like, is less dramatically exciting and engaging than what episode four was. Yes. I thought four was like, was just such a breath of fresh air.

And then also helped me, I mean, honestly, I don't want to keep doing this, but like it was about, it was almost like a pallet cleanser. And I felt like ready for the rest of the season almost after four. Like I was like, oh yeah, this was A, a gear shift down,

B in a different setting. C gave Sid the character a much different, environment to be in and also allowed, like, there were certain qualities that I think that the Cid from the restaurant had at Cid at Chantel's house, but at the same time it was like a much different like vibe from her, a much different kind of feel from her. And it was really cool to see her be kind of, you know, not a maternal figure, but like definitely like hanging out with a kid all day and, you know, somewhat speaking in metaphors. And I think that the show is, yeah,

Somewhat, yeah. I mean, like, Sid is definitely speaking in metaphors. Like, Sid is putting up a lot of, a lot of hurdles to, like, just saying what the thing is and trying to make a decision. She's talking about apples and she's talking about sleepovers. Honestly, she sounded like she was thinking about coming over to our apartment in New York because one of us is the greatest video game player. And, you know, the food's pretty good. Yeah, there also were, and I want to give credit when it's due, like, it's not as if, it's just all tossed together. Like there are little ideas, little flavors that reoccur enough to be noted. And in this episode, in 404, the kid, whose name I'm forgetting, says, you know, something my mom says is, sometimes you go with people, sometimes you go without them. And I was thinking that came into my head when in episode seven, Richie is telling Uncle Oliver Platt about the Japanese garden.

About are you the rocks, are you the sand? You know, I think this idea of people, people are the worst, people are the best. Yeah. You can't go it alone. Sometimes you have to be alone. How do we navigate this? How do we navigate community, individual genius, collective? Like, these are all rich topics that the show is unafraid of dealing with, but sometimes they are just feel less sharp because of the morass that they are occasionally afloat in.

I think I learned I think I figured this show or this season out a lot more when I let go of my expectations that there was going to be that a lot of the rewards were going to come from plot and narrative and more from ideas about how to how to heal yourself as a person and like to your same point of what you just said about the lines

Sydney had, I think Claire has a line in seven, or maybe when they're at the hospital, actually, with Sydney's father. It's a great scene. And Claire says something about, like, worrying about people and them worrying about you is all we've got. She says that to Sydney. Yeah, and that's not like the healthiest place to be mentally, but it is actually like a pretty accurate description of... Hold on. I'm getting a call from my therapist. Who does... Hold on. I'm getting a call from my mom. Well, maybe we should just conference.

Can we have a Zoom with nine people? And then can I go play FIFA? And then just run the clip of Karmie saying it's really noisy in my head. Yeah. There are some more specifics that I really like, but let's stay on Sydney for a second because if one of the joys in serialized television and one of the joys exemplified by the bear is falling in love with characters and also falling in love with performers

that you weren't familiar with and then watching them take advantage of opportunities. like I.O. is the top of that list. And her performance across these three episodes, carrying over into seven is exceptional. Like really, really, really tough work, really moving. It's one of those TV things where it's not rocket science, right? Where like, plot crashes in, like the Kool-Aid man, into a fixed storyline and blows it up and gives people an opportunity to react to something. And it can be cheap. It can be manipulative. Sidney's dad having a heart attack after a couple scenes of him being like,

I can't quite reach you, not feeling so well today, I'm gonna go sailing on my boat. It's called Live Forever. Yes, yeah, he McBain. Who gives a shit because of what we got from that? You know, like her performance

and the way the phone call comes and the way she tells Carmen, but don't tell everyone, and then she goes and the way it feels. And the crying scene is just extraordinary. It's extraordinary. And in some ways, I think Molly Gordon as the MVP of the season so far

because she she's the sin eater yes she is such a naturalistic present actor that she allows every scene partner she has such um grace to

let loose to be themselves to just be present with her and she's very um yeah there's nothing you said that perfectly she she just absorbs it and then and then reflects back just enough I was so moved by that scene and then also felt weirdly

even though it's mushy I felt sturdier because I was like now her decision making which you know it's just been hours of screen time of her not opening

docu signs the partnership agreement from the bear that and then ignoring Shapiro's calls and texts and whatever's suddenly it had a foundation

of like what is actually at stake here. I would love... And I thought it was great. I feel like you would love, especially a bottle episode of like all of this from Shapiro's perspective.

Like, he's working on his new restaurant. He's trying to set the vibe with a playlist. And then he's like, she just won't write me back. What's going on? Honestly, it's a little bit like when I... I've done a first pass setting up our New York apartment and you walk in and I'm playing MOP really loudly.

and you're like, yeah, it's good. It's good. It's really cool vibe. Yeah, it's cool. You're still listen to this. Huh. Yeah, that's fun. How old are we?

Yeah, so basically, like, after episode four, which is a Sydney Bottle episode to some extent, or like a separate Sydney side mission, there is a two episode arc. One that culminates with finding out their father has had a heart attack. The second is his recovery-ish. I mean, finding out that he's going to be okay and what. is going on at the restaurant. I wanted to ask you what you thought of, Cindy's insistence that Carm not tell anybody and his failure to do so, but then there being really no consequences to that. I thought that was fine and actually quite normal. Like that's what happens is like people get very protective or freaked out

when something like that happens to them. Sometimes they're like, please don't say anything about this to anyone. I don't want to, maybe I don't want to have to answer 100 questions about this or have the same conversation 50 times. But a lot of it is also like I have a I have walls up but I don't want to have like multiple real heartfelt conversations with people but then we see the entire staff of the bear is just like we love you like we're sending you an edible arrangement

we're calling you we're checking in I think it's just an example of how sometimes the show fights the more obvious TV solution like so much of the emotional storytelling of the bear is internal which is just so hard to dramatize, especially when you spread it out over two seasons.

So you just drop an IRL bomb into it, and then everyone's reactions are suddenly more appropriate. And they're pitched at a different level. And you could see the shading of Karmie's humanity, right? That he is not just a wall. Like, there's gradations to how sensitive he can be or how appropriate he can be, that this unspoken bond between these people who are a found family, like, when tested, is resilient and there is love there. So it's just, it's like a stress test in a way that worked for the show.

It also, I think, gave some meaning and shape to five and six coming after the strong four because otherwise, back at the restaurant, it's just kind of more of the same, except now with more old friends coming to visit because now Will Poulter is there in the regular cast because the show just can't stop adding people and dishes and love and heart. Was I mad to see him? No. No. No. But, you know, it does feel like a beat we saw at the beginning when the entire front of House staff from ever suddenly crashes the party, you know. But like what I've found so, it's not maddening, but I've found noteworthy is that you come out of episode four feeling a certain way about like, God damn, when the show just focuses, it is so, so, so precise and so sharp. And then you begin five. with what I felt was like a similar display of precision. Five starts back in an Al-Anon meeting,

which on our podcast last week, I was like, you know, the third episodes always begin with Al-Anon meetings, and I've caught them out. And so, okay, here we are. It's Cape Burland telling a story about her brother, yeah. Her character's brother. Dude, this is another masterclass of solo performance.

It's a phenomenal monologue. She's excellent. Like, this is really, really, I found this to just be really, really high quality, really compelling, vulnerable screen acting. A very real story. And a real story that has, is not, you know, not everything that the bear sort of tosses out casually lands,

like casually like apart from the main story. This did. And I'm feeling it and it's, you know, it's vibrating in my body. And then Carmen goes and tours a Frank Lloyd Wrighthouse. See, I, okay, this is a perfect example of, I think something taken into town. versus something taken in its in isolation. I actually feel like this is where the season

Carmi-wise starts to turn. Tell me. And that, yes, it's easy to say we've been in these rooms with Carmen before. We've been on these creative sort of sojourns with him before where he's looking for inspiration. But I think as you start to see him as a blocked, emotionally and creatively blocked person

who can't get over his personal shit to be the professional person that he's capable of being. And then there's that, the fact that those two scenes are together, I do think it's crucial because I think that's one of the, maybe not the first time, but it is a time in one of those rooms where Carmen actually hears himself in another person. And if this entire season is about learning to rely on other people

and learning to trust other people and learning to be there for other people, more importantly. It's not surprising to me that his next step is a creative one. It's almost a creative breakthrough, even though it maybe doesn't lead to anything obvious in terms of his cooking the next scene. But I think I get it. I think I get that this unlocked something in him

and that unblocked something in him. And I kind of started to see a little bit of a path here. And then that really starts to become clear in seven to me. I think that's really interesting. It makes me want to rewatch it. I found it kind of inert and frustrating. Beautiful. And, you know, again, I hope Chicago's giving them tax breaks at this point for the way that they just continually to explore the real city as a real character. But it just struck me again as another noble attempt to solve what I kind of believe is an impossible problem on television, which is a main character who has no one to talk to. Like, there's a reason why, Special Agent Dale Cooper had a tape recorder to talk to Diane. There's a reason why Tony Soprano had therapy with Dr. Melfi. Like, you need access to characters on television. Yeah, but I would way prefer him having these walks around Chicago or stoically staring

than have Ghost Mikey show up every five seconds. A billion percent. Like, the worst version of this is John Hamm's endless self-explaining monologue on your friends and neighbors. Like, there are bad solves for him. And I think it's good faith. attempt to not do the bad thing. And I'll just say it for the thousandth time. If this was all in the first, in the first go-round of the final season, maybe we would have had three examples of him thinking it over, not six, and then it would have felt different. But, you know, it just felt like

if you are, it just struck me as if they suddenly had more space on their whiteboard, there's different ways to fill it. And a Sydney episode is a, for me, a good, good use of the time. Capellant speaking, good use of the time, him touring a landmark, not as good use of a time. But then also particularly jarring in the way this season has been jarring because these episodes, you know, four, bang, episode, seven, bang, episode, five and six, kind of episodes, but then also some other stuff thrown in. Like the Tina cooking with her husband scene.

Happy to see her real-life husband David Zias again. There's a tension here with this season that I think I want to pick out because it gets completely wiped away in the seventh episode. Yes. But one of the issues with the show that I think maybe I was on a subconscious level responding to. And it was funny that this is coming up because I actually, we were watching, I was watching in just like that with my wife last night.

And I was just like, who are all these fucking people? Like, why are there 14 characters on this show and two of them I care about? You know, like, what is going on? I don't know if you know this from like a background standpoint in terms of like behind the scenes, but like when shows are in their third, fourth season, and we are spending less and less time with the main characters and

the aperture is widening to include the stepkids of a third character or like the gardener or in this case, many, many, many facts now. Yes. The, Gary and Ibrahim's

journeys to either financial success with the takeout window or learning how to be a Samayay, you know, more and more and more layers of family members and staff at the restaurant. Do you think that you, like, because that's really what five and six have a lot of is like these sort of digressions of like of people hanging out with Nat's baby, which are actually quite delightful in and of themselves, but maybe like a little bit of a deviation from what you're talking about in terms of like, I want Richie, Karm and Sid to be in a

There are rich creative reasons to expand the aperture, as you said, and we see it across the history of television that we love. And the main reason is characters bloom on the page and come to life in the casting. I was never like, why is there a new person on Mad Men? Exactly. And then the writers, you want, it is palpable when writers are writing towards things that they get excited about and care about and want to see more of and want to interrogate and give us different glances and different insights into. That's a wonderful thing. And it has happened with the bear to our benefit. there is also, without knowing the specifics of either and just like that or the bear, there are practical reasons to do it. And the practical reason is you want to reduce workload on your top of the call sheet people. And particularly, you may need to reduce that workload as the demands on their time increase as they become more and more famous and successful. Sure. the gymnastics required to get a third and fourth season of the bear on the schedule that they get it out on, which we're always championing.

Absolutely. I have full confidence saying this without ever having seen a call sheet required just outrageous dexterity. And a lot of like, okay, well, we're going to lose Eben for 10 days here. We're going to lose Jeremy. or we've agreed to let Io go shoot to do pickups because projects are generally also very respectful to each other. Everybody wants everybody to be able to do everything and succeed. So supporting characters completely separate plot lines suddenly become essential. There are moments in watching this season when maybe I'm seeing things.

But I feel like, oh, Bruce Springsteen is in this scene, but Carmen from season two and three is in this scene, which in my mind is like, oh, well, this is one of the things that they shot when they were block shooting seasons three and four last year. And then this seems more like something that they shot when they were doing, quote, a few days of pickups in February. Having an entire plot line about the sandwich shop that only requires Ibrahim, those dudes whose names I don't know, but I love seeing The Robot and Rob Reiner must have been a huge boon to production.

Those storylines, have they crossed over at all? No. Karm is aware of it, obviously. Well, he's not aware of it as of. he's aware that that I bring opportunity for myself and also for the bear and he's just like I've done a poor job listening to you about this

like or whatever he says I bring all this up to say sometimes it can feel like a distraction or sometimes you can be like I have an itch I can't quite scratch and it's wanting to see more scenes of calm just interacting with people on like a regular because like I want to see him be like

hey can you hand me that spoon you know. Yeah, but did you feel positively? So in the midst of Sydney at the hospital, there is a pre-service meeting. Yes, where it's the group and they have like the ratat-tat dialogue. Yes, and Sophie's there.

That's the episode where, you know, Sugar has brought Sophie into the kitchen and Luca's there now and they're doing it. And in the middle of it, it explodes into a classic, Ritchie and Karmie screaming at each other. Which is also an exposition moment so that they can explain who's fran,

why are these people mad? Why are you upset at your kid's stepdad, et cetera? And I loved it. It was like, oh, it's the Gary's old-time tavern episode of Cheers again. Like, here we go. Like, it's the thing that we- It also perfectly works to set up seven. And it's a scene, and it's an example that, like,

clearly they don't want to play the hits. They can play the hits. I would argue that Richie and Carmen having their squabble spread so thin is hurting the show's central relationships. Like, Richie bringing up, you know, locking yourself in the fridge again, felt a little, like how much time has passed since that? How many times have they spoken?

Have they just not spoken, really, for three to six months? That felt a little, that felt a little too spread thin for me. Like I kind of wish they had had this out already. But again, because of the nature of the story and how many episodes are left, they couldn't until now. So I was generally glad to see it happen. Your mileage may vary, literally yours, Chris, or the viewers, on, like, how much you wanted,

how much you needed an update on Chester's real estate career with Marcus. Like, again, I like Carmen Christopher a lot. I like Carmen Christopher a lot, too. He's on the league. He's on the league. He's on the English teacher, like, great actor, so funny. But, like, that scene, it's, it's, I don't know. Sometimes people, some people are, I'm not, I never want it to be misconstrued that I'm expecting, like, bang, bang.

I don't want this to be Ozark. I don't want like a season, an episode. But the way that it is structured can sometimes be confounding when just when you feel like, okay, we're humming, we're humming, we're having a good service, then suddenly it's Marcus and Chester. Now, is it a nicely written scene performed by two actors I'm thrilled to see? Yeah. Then maybe we're being, so is that a customer problem or a restaurant problem? Is that us?

I think it's a restaurant. I think it's a restaurant problem because the show keeps telling on itself by reminding us what it's capable of. Right. Well, then we find that out in seven. Yeah. So let's talk seven. Seven to the business. Yeah, so it's worth noting this was, we've talked a little bit about the credits for the previous episodes. I'll mention that Karen Joseph Adcock wrote Replicants, which is episode five. Storer directed that. Sophie was written and directed by Storer. That's episode six. and then seven is written by Joanne Callow and directed by Chris Storer and is a massive, massive, alt-man-esque assembly of characters.

Now, as Andy mentioned, there are a lot of cameos from characters or guest stars who have appeared in previous episodes. The Bears become something of a, one of its signature moves is to have like an expansive breakout long episode. obviously fishes from season three. Season two. Season two. Ice chips from season three. And now Bears from season four, which is this massive wedding

between Tiff, Richie's X, and Frank. And Frank is played by Josh Hartnett. If you haven't watched this episode yet, I would recommend you skip ahead or maybe come back after you've watched it because there are some like just spoilery cameos and stuff like that. But for the most part,

people we have seen before. I would argue that this is, I don't think there's, I would push back on that. There's one debut, casting debut, that the internet has pretty much spoiled, I think, for most people, especially if you follow this person on social media, she's spoiled it herself 24 hours after the show premiered.

But two, nothing, quote unquote, happens in this episode. Like, aggressively nothing happens. It is a series of, no, I'm pro. I really liked it. just mean that I think it's essentially spoiler-proof because it is an hour of shuffling the deck of pairings and repairings of people talking things through generally to very beautiful and emotional places. Yes.

I love this shit. You should see my top 10 movies of the century list that I'm making for the Times. It's all just like, dude's Japan. That you're making for the time? Are you still working on it? They've asked me to make it for them. No, I'm acting like this is an assignment. Yeah, because I fucking had it done.

And then I forgot Paddington, too. That's my brand. And then I'm like, but Andy, just pick the movies that you fucking like. Don't worry about your brand. Don't worry about people reading it. Also, I'm never going to share it with anyone but you,

but you're my roommate now. And there are standards. Okay? So I'm sorry. I'm not just like, what did Michael Mann directs? Done. Like, I'm just like, you know.

That's not me. Okay, sorry. What did Tarantino direct? Anyway, I'm not, I love, I love shit. like this. And I'm a mark for this episode, and I was very moved by it. But I was just pushing back

on the, this isn't the episode where the restaurant shuts down. Okay. So what I really wanted to do here, we could talk about what we liked, there was really very little of this that I didn't like. I just want to say that I thought the, and that I have finished the season and everything. The Odin Kirk scene is the best, one of the best scenes in this show, this entire series. The scene between Jeremy Allen White, Bob Oat Kirk, Uncle Lee, and Karmie in hiding, both for different reasons, hiding out from the wedding in a kitchen,

sharing a piece of nicotine gum, and... But you were an easy mark for that part. Well, it's just... First of all, it's real. Like, it's just like a thing. It gives Karmie something to do. He's like, I'll open this for you.

Like, there's an action involved. It's not cooking. And second of all, it really is cool to see this, you're waiting because Lee's one of the sort of antagonists of fishes to some extent. Like he's the one who's

getting under Mikey's skin so much and Karm references this multiple times and Lee's like, guess what, big dog? Like I was able to change. Like people can change. They're not who they were in a very special episode of television all the time. And if you

will listen to me and if you will maybe go listen to your mother, like you'll see that people can do work on themselves. And I think that's essentially, Karm comes to us as this damaged genius that we are familiar with from TV shows. And the thing we need to do is keep those guys damaged and smart. And the whole point of this series might be,

what if he can undo the damage a little bit? You know, like that might actually be what this show is about and not about food. Yeah. And I think also it's a really beautiful psychological observation too, which is that we carry fixed versions of people in our heads, and we are constantly arguing with them, hearing their voices,

whether it's criticism or love or whatever. We carry something of people with us all the time. And one of the challenges of being an adult is realizing you can't be responsible for other people. You cannot change other people. You cannot expect other people to change. But they could. And then sometimes it's hard to allow that same grace

to the fixed version of them that exists in our head. and I thought the scene was beautifully played I thought it was really well written mostly I was just so grateful because this was a scene when Dind Jaran finally took off his fucking helmet Yeah Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. It's almost become a... Thank you for using his given name by the way. Well, you know, this is the way. Jeremy Allen White is such a good and intuitive actor that he has been doing these season and a half in a straight jacket. And I really think that this was an...

Him being a little prick to his uncle is great when he's like, what did you guys throw shit at each other? Also, not his uncle. Who says it later in the episode? I've met that guy seven times and I still don't know who he is talking about Odenkirk. Oh yeah, but I thought it was like, brothers gone, you moved in.

I thought that would make him his uncle, his dad's brother. No, I think he's like, I think he's more like his mom's boyfriend, like guy in the neighborhood who's like maybe her boyfriend was the implication. Listen, the closest you could ever get me to doing the Charlie Day crazy chart meme would be being asked to explain how any of these people are related to each other. I can't do that.

But I thought that I agree that that scene was wonderful in the way that only the bear can be, which is we are going to allow people to act their asses off. We're going to allow them to demonstrate psychological complexity and interiority. and we're going to just be big open-hearted mushoes about it with great stars. It works sometimes. You know, the formula really, really works. On top of that, I will say, because there's a main part of this episode I really want to talk about, but I just want to mention quickly that the pan to Molaney and then him being like, Pete, shut the fuck up.

First of all, when do Malini becomes so good at cursing? I think after rehab. Okay. I think there's a before and after time for him. That scene of him being really, he's hysterical in that scene, and then his description of like how he would almost be disappointed if there wasn't a car crash of bullshit is such a sly line of like why we're watching this show, you know, like.

Well, Malaney is excellent on the show. And I think of all the people who were sitting at the table in fishes, as much, I mean, I'm a huge fan, obviously. we talk about him and we praise him all the time. But of all the people sitting around that table, he was the one when he was revealed and we were watching season two where I was like, huh?

Has Chris Storres' friendships gone too far? Like I'm just inviting his favorites on his iPhone. What I love about Malaney is that the character is delighted to be there, which I think Malaney kind of is delighted to be there too. And the bit that he doesn't fit into this tapestry at all is also has been leaned into and everyone's like, who are you?

Why are you here? Also, I love that like whatever workout plan Malini is on over the last couple of years gets a shout out on this show where they're like, you look like Chris Chelios. You look beautiful. Do you feel like, did you see, do you follow Mullaney on social?

Do you see that he's now started a book club where he was just like, I did. He's like Playworld is the best novel I've read in a long time. Like is he just, is this a bespoke FYC campaign for you this point? But I'm already, my comedian book club

membership card is already, I gave it to Jezelnick. It's already punched. And he did Playworld earlier this year. So, you know, is this like when George Lopez would steal jokes

some other comedians? I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying. Are you going to get aggregated by Marin for this? Don't. Why is that? This is,

why is John Malini stealing Jezelnick's book club ideas? We're going to get to the bottom of this. It's a big, it's a big 10. You know what it is? it's also a really big cake table.

So, yeah, wow. This episode concludes with or culminates with a... Wait, I'm going to stop you there. There's 20 minutes after the scene ends. Well, there's dancing, right? Like, there's lots of stuff. There's lots of stuff. I'm talking about it.

There's just lots of stuff. There is a fabulous moment where there's a cake table. Richie's daughter, Richie and Tiff's daughter is hiding under there. She doesn't want to dance in front of everybody for a stepfather's daughter dance. One by one, the characters from this show go underneath the table,

which continues to sort of grow and expand and eventually house, I think probably a baker's dozen of adults. And they're all sitting cross-legged and talking about what they're afraid of because what's their daughter's name? Eva? Ashley?

whatever it is. It's all good. She needs to hear that other people are also afraid of things. And these things vary from AI to not being creative enough, you know, making wrong decisions.

It's Eva. I was close. Eva. And to me, this scene was like finding the money in the tomato cans. It's like a moment

of magical fantasy within, or magical realism within a show that's fairly realistic and fairly gritty and fairly, hey, like, if we don't get the gas turned off, we're going to fill the inspection. It's very real, but then every once in a while

has a kind of, you wouldn't believe how many people we got under this table, you know? If anyone listening has been to the Brod Museum, there is a piece of art there called Under the Table by Robert Tarion, which is like a five foot tall table that you can walk under.

And I feel like that was the inspiration for this scene. Do you want to go there together next week and I'll tell you what I'm afraid of? At the museum, then we can go back to our apartment. And I'll just be like, I'm worried we don't have enough depth at left wing. I'll be like for FIFA. Don't worry, I got hot pockets for dinner. You're so moved by this. I'm worried this 21-year-old Argentinian is going to turn down our contract offer.

My daughter is watching binge watching three seasons of a show about a who has killed multiple partners in life. We all have our hopes, dreams, and fears. That's what the episode was about. Look, here's the thing about the bear. The bear is at its best when it is a fantasy. Not a fantasy like Wheel of Time, but a fantasy like an inveterate dirtbag like Richie

can become a better man, a better father, and a better person over the course of five weeks of polishing forks. That is the kind of fantasy that I can get behind. And I think that sometimes the discourse about the show is going in the wrong direction because it's trying to say, oh, well, this really captures what a kitchen is like. And maybe it captures some of the psychological reasons people go into this kind of work, the kind of broken toy elements of a restaurant kitchen or of the precision or of the repetition or of the stress or of the demands. But this is a show that's fundamental engine is people can change and get better. And sometimes that's not a fantasy. Like I was saying, before. Sometimes that's a reality. But building the crescendo, I imagine, of the season, I haven't watched it yet, around something as relatively small as this minor character, the daughter of a major character, doesn't want to do something. And then one person goes under a table, then two, and then three, and then four. And then somewhere around Brie Larson's Francine, in fact, getting under the table to

continue to yell fuck you's at Sugar, I'm like, oh, they're doing this now. And I'm, I'm charmed. You know, the show is disarming with its emotional vulnerability, and it's like, it's like the way Chris programs the needle drops. Like, there is a shamelessness to it that is absolutely undeniable unless there's something broken inside of you. You know, it just, it fucking hits. Like, I, I haven't been to as many weddings as Kaya, but I think if we combine the number of weddings we've been to, I think the number will still be zero of those weddings that ended with Emmy Lou Harris's cover

of Bruce Springsteen's tougher than the rest. But invite me to the next one that does that because I will be chop. That would be an amazing DJ request from you. I will be chopping onion. That's why they would invite me to weddings. Because I'm like, I would help you with the DJing, but I'm still.

I'm a sustaining donor to W.H.Y.I. I'm sorry. I'm just completing my New York Times top 10 list of the century. I could just have another hour, please. I could get to it. Similarly, like the fantasy of the beautifully integrated modern family. of Frank's a good guy. And Frank and Richie can't help but like each other

because they do both want what's best for the child. That happens in the world. That's not a fantasy. They're beautiful examples in probably everyone's listening to lives of people getting over their shit. But it usually doesn't happen at the fucking wedding, right when it's needed most.

That's the magic of TV. And it's a fantasy I'm here for. We'll continue to talk about The Bear. We'll do the last three episodes on Thursday. Do you have some other notes you want to share? Just last thing. the only this isn't this is more of an observation it's not meant necessarily as concern trolling but like it is evident that everything in this show you know like what did Obama say and I maybe it's time to fact check it that the arc of history he didn't say this but he said it a lot he didn't create the phrase but like the arc of history bends towards justice like the arc of the character arc of the bear ends towards hugs how's that working out for you not great we got we're going to need a bigger arc shout out Indiana Jones

two copies of FIFA two hot pockets and we're going off the first two seasons of Ginny and Georgia that's frankly we got to take comfort where we can get it and we'll all be under the table until you get this all sorted out

but the character arc on the bear bends towards hugs and understanding and we don't know like I haven't finished the season I don't know if it ends with a big to be continued or if it ends in a place that's like maybe they could do more maybe they won't but it is absolutely without question that the show has neutered any and all opposition.

There isn't really any conflict other than Karmie's own internal conflict. Oliver Platt could have been a big bad, but he's kind of an asshole sometimes, but he's part of mush who loves Billy Friedkin films as much as anyone else, right? Jesus fucking G. Jamie Lee Curtis is softening, and we saw that happen during ice ships last year. I would imagine building towards a carmy confrontation or resolution coming up. Even Odenkirk, right, is like not an asshole anymore. So there is just a intentional removal of conflict and states.

I think that the idea is basically like carms the asshole. Exactly. And it's like you realize you wake up one day and you're like, I think that all these people are standing in my way or don't get me or don't understand me. And then one day I wake up and realize all these people wake up and think, I'm standing in their way. Exactly.

So I think that, and I think that's, whether they know it or not. That's compelling. I don't know if that's compelling for multiple seasons going forward, but I'm curious how that gets addressed. I think that my main takeaway, having only watched seven, because I actually did the assignment as we had agreed to it, is that, like, I know that Christor and certainly a sister Courtney, who's the food consultant and executive producer, Maddie Matheson, and a lot of the people, fictional and real involved in the show. have been to Noma, have been to the French laundry, can talk about Thomas Keller, can extol the virtues of fine dining at the highest level. But dude, this show is Carmines. Do you remember Carmines in the Upper West Side of Manhattan? It's like, it is a restaurant where the whole thing is the lasagna costs like $36 and it could feed an army. Like you sit there

and you get garlic bread and you get spaghetti and everything is way too big and it's way too much food and it just all comes onto the table and tables are groaning under the weight of it and that's the spirit of it. And like that's what this show is. It's not just that like that's what fishes was like. That's a really good point though. It's not this precise mind-blowing

recycling of ingredients and re-contextualizing of things. It's actually a comfort meal. And the comfort is like maybe hard fought. Like you really got to work through that lasagna. And you might be eating it for a week. but it's going to hit when it hits. The show ultimately,

maybe like Sydney with a hamburger helper, like the show is here to feed you. And it is not here to be a comedy and it is not here to challenge you or have people act in monstrous ways or dazzle you with its plot twists. Like, it's just here to feed you. And that's not a bad thing.

I feel very, I feel very, very well taken care of after these middle episodes, but I'm curious how it's going to resolve. Of course. So we'll talk about that on Thursday, in person. And we'll also talk about... In person, Chris. What's that going to be like? I'm coming back. I'm coming home. And we'll also do our July 4th barbecue playlist. It's just an annual tradition, which I don't even know if anybody cares about, but we care about it. I care about it. And I also want to interrogate whether, like, your feelings and your behavior and your vibe on these podcasts is affected by the fact that you have, like, smart water empties all around you when you're an aquafina guy. And I just like... you really pulled my card right there. I'm just like, have you changed?

I didn't even notice those. I get thirsty, you know? Yeah, but you said you can only have your thirst quenched. I haven't seen it up here. I told you this is, we're having a crisis of distribution from Aquafina. Don't you think that the people of the, you know, the Soviet Socialist Republic of Portland, like probably have their own Maha agenda and keep that shit out for a reason? It's worth talking about.

It's worth considering. I'm just bringing in people who aren't prejudiced in their society. science. You know what I mean? Like, I just want to bring in people who are open to different points of view. Buddy, it was great to see you. And I'll see you on Thursday and we'll finish up the bear. We'll have a cold drink of water. I can't wait. Bye, guys.