The Watch - The Beginning of the End for 'Succession'

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Chris and Andy break down the first episode of 'Succession' Season 4. They discuss whether moments in this episode indicate that this is the final season for the show (1:00), how Kendall, Shiv, and Roman are now being set up against Logan (23:19), and where Tom stands after siding with Logan (36:24). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili and hosts of What About Your Friends? A brand new show on The Ringer Podcast Network dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the Ringer dish feed, I'll be talking with my best friend, Stephen Othello, and your favorites from within the ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture, and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the Ringer dish feed where we try to answer the question TLCS back in the day, what about your friends. know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections

or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He's the fucking moron who said the biggest number. It's Andy Greenlow! Hold on, what second? I just have to rummage to fruition.

Just let me just finish. Andy, once more unto the breach, we talk about succession. This will inaugurate our usual Sunday night potting about what has been probably our favorite show of the decade easily, but over the last five, six years, Succession began its final season tonight.

We're coming to you on Sunday. And we're just so excited to talk about this show. It's been one of the great joys of the sort of, if I call it latter period of this podcast, does that mean we're ending? It is, but now's not the time to announce it. The twilight of our podcast? No, it's been one of the great joys to talk about this show with you.

So we get the- Chris, remember the time we went to a diner and just talked about the afterlife together? That was when I knew. This podcast wasn't forever. I was doing security for you at the time. That's a great place to start, man. One of the things that's so interesting about this, I want to get into a breakdown of the actual episode,

but I thought a great place to start, just generally speaking, before I do this sort of plot synopsis as we get into this fourth season, is did you detect any slight whiffs' aromas of finality? There was recently some new stories about Sarah Snook not knowing that it was going to be the final season

until she basically got the scripts for the end of the the end of the season. Obviously some chatter about like could there be spin-offs and you know what would happen with that. And Jesse Armstrong is he seemed to be unequivocal at points and then equivocate a little bit about whether or not there be more here. But look, man, like that was the thing that was sort of hanging over this episode in which not a ton happened, but you couldn't help but read what you were

referencing that scene where Logan is out to dinner with his security guard Colin for his birthday and he winds up alone in a diner somewhere off of Central Park and is musing about whether there's life after death. Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, it's such a joy to have this show back. And what a joy to do it with you in this last season of our podcast to do it together. We're going to say this 100 times over the course, if not more, over the course of the next nine, ten weeks. But the writing in this show is so exemplary. It is unparalleled.

It's so muscular. It's so alive. And every single line, even the throwaways that you don't catch until the second or third viewing, which the show merits, are so considered. And because of all that and because of how clear that was even in this season premiere, and Succession is a show that historically starts slowly and then builds and builds and builds. I'm actually feeling like taking Jesse, he's been on the pod two or three times, we can call him Jesse, at his word, which is that he has said... So he's kind of graduated into

like Kate, you know, that zone, where if you come on twice, we get to call you by your first name? Yes, although weirdly Elizabeth Moss graduated to Lizzie after like one time she called in. That may have been presumptuous. It's noticed she hasn't come back. I'm beginning to take Jesse at his word. And he said this in some of the pre-release. press that he wasn't certain it was over until he was writing the scripts. And I believe him. You know, I don't think he's being coy or cagey about it. I think that he, the way that he writes and the engagement and the presence and the awareness that he has of these characters and their relationships to each other and the spinning plates of the world around them, I think they told him by where they

were and what was left for them to do. And it's incredibly exciting. I think that you and I both had a similar reaction to the episode, which was joy and pleasure, but also a kind of, very honestly, pleasant bordering on bittersweet, sense that this ought to be the last season, that there needs to be an end game for it to have, and this is a tough word to use, but for it to have mattered, you know. Yeah, you know, this shows the gravitational pull that this show is in where it's pulling it from being,

this hilarious satire of the grotesquely rich and the power brokers of the universe and pulling it into kind of being a prestige drama that is also an incredible portrait of the human condition in a variety of different ways has been kind of low-key the most fascinating part about it to me when you're talking about it almost as like a text. Like I think various characters on this show resonate with me

in different ways and then it reliably cracks me the fuck up five or six times an hour. But the sort of tension between pathos, satire, and comedy and drama that this show experiments with is not always the smoothest. You know what I mean? Like, I think that it sometimes has like these sharp turns, but is easily like the most fascinating experiment on display in modern television to me. And the ability to take something that has its sort of comic roots in the larger Ianucci kind of

school of, you know, VEP and the thick of it in the loop universe and transposes that onto this very, very specific milieu of like upper, upper, upper, upper, far atmosphere class of, you know, robber barons is just amazing in and of itself. But then to find these people underneath that he obviously has a tremendous amount of affection for and that these actors all, I think, love. Like, I think one of the things that was great about seeing those first scenes of people in, you know, in media res, like, doing their thing, you know, was like, shit, I bet it was really cool, like, to be back and doing Kendall, Roman, and Shiv in a room together, kind of breaking each other's balls and talking about the future and everything. And it just, you can feel like a certain energy

and you can feel a comfort with the characters and all the performers that I really love. But, yeah, I always love looking at this show and watching. it kind of go back and forth between its outright brilliant comic timing and portrayal of these people and then also these moments like the final few moments of this episode where you're just like, oh, God, this is such an incredible dramatic moment. Well, here's the thing. You ding me fairly for falling back on my old chestnut about shows teaching you how to watch them. But let me give you the flip side of that coin, which is that when the die is cast and shows

are ending, you know, by choice or with the knowledge that they're ending, that's when all the versions of the show that you thought you were watching or that maybe you were enjoying or talking about with your friends or meming, they fall away. And all that's left is the intention of the people making the show. You can no longer just sort of be spinning theories and questions and taking pleasure in the sense that this might keep going on forever. And that is when I think authorship does matter. Now, that's a whole separate conversation because I think even Jesse is a modest guy. And many people contribute to it as writer's room is starry and brilliant and et cetera, et cetera. But who is telling us this story and what is that person's point of view about it all?

And if this show were to continue forever with the Roy kids continually going for their dad's Lucy Charlie Brown football type set up and failing and then spending billions of dollars needlessly and getting up again, it could be incredibly entertaining. Oh, yeah. It is sinful, honestly to think about this cast dissipating. Yeah, watching Roman blow up a satellite could just come up with variations of that for years. But that's not the show he's making because if it goes on forever, it's a comedy where these people are, by and large, sympathetic and heroic.

And it was never that show. You know, not to presume people's politics, but I do think that Jesse Armstrong is not like a Bill Clinton, new Democrat who's just like, I like markets, but also equal justice. You know what I mean? I get the vibes that he's a little bit to the left of that. And what I'm beginning to see the outline of

is that this show, in addition to being the best comedy of the last few years, and in addition to being a compelling drama, is fundamentally a tragedy. And I think that that's, that was the shadow that was cast across this episode in a really, really compelling way. And even just by way of pivoting,

like I do think we should run through some of the big talking points. But in rewatching the finale of season three, which is all the bells, which is a staggering Hall of Fame episode of television that just gets better the more time as you watch it and the further we get from it in time.

The line that stood out for me wasn't from that incredible like almost Renaissance painting of Kendall and the dust with his siblings around him. It came from earlier in the episode. It comes from when

when Logan and Roman take the speedboat to Scarsguard, I forget his characters named Mattson to the villa where he is, right? And Logan dispenses with small talk and the coffee immediately.

And Mattson's like, oh, getting around. write down to it. And Logan's like, it's all boring, isn't it? It's all boring except for this. And that's so awful. You know, it's so just like existentially horrific. And now that we know the show is ending and they're still spinning and they haven't learned anything, it is all boring to them because this is the only way they feel anything, let alone familial love, but anything at all. Yeah. It's kind of sad, lonely and pathetic. I mean, isn't that what...

I'm digging it. I love it too, but isn't that maybe the... One of the things that Armstrong and the writers are trying to say about this pursuit of wealth in and of itself winds up... You wind up bringing it back down to what these guys doing. Like, you know, the kids are trying to create this new media empire out of their own image that's flexible, that's moving quickly, that is everything that, you know, ATN isn't. and then as soon as they get an opportunity to stick it to their dad, they jump on it. Just the same way, in a weird, strange way, the kids finally acquiring PGN at the end of this episode,

and he says, you know, congratulations on saying a bigger number. It's almost a gift. It's almost he's giving them a gift on his birthday. I can be proven wrong immediately next week when we find out any number of things could have gone wrong. It seems strange that Logan would just sort of acquiesce like that. but we can get into all of that. You want me to just break down the episode for a second here? Yeah, because also I believe I don't want to step on your breakdown

because this is what you do best. But you do a couple other things well too. You're a jack-up old tricks. I was like, do I just recap? You're a good recapper. And as a podcaster, you're fine. You know, you're good. That's right.

But the takeaway, right, the implication is that since season three finale, in anticipation of the Goju Gojo Gojo Thank you So true is the liquor You're allowed to say goju

But I don't think That's what it's called You know you have like an angel And a devil on your shoulder Like that's what the angel is whispering In my left ear And I won't on a podcast repeat What the devil is saying

The Gojo is taking over The Bujou is taking over the Bung the bulk of the media assets of Waystar Royco, but that Logan is keeping ATN and potentially then would add Pierce to his his smaller slim-down media portfolio. I was basically trying to think about this, you know, in the same way where when Rupert Murdoch dissolved Fox as a conglomerate and sold off

the studios business to Disney, but kept the news arm and kept the New York Post and kept Fox News and all those things. Yes. So that leads right into where we are when the season starts, which I think if I caught this correctly is about three months after the season ended. Season three ended. I think there's a reference to having spent several months trying to raise money in Dubai and various other things.

But the season four opener harkens back to the series opener in a lot of ways because that was also a birthday party for Logan when they're playing softball in celebration in the first episode of the entire series. I was trying to figure out how much time has passed on succession. There's a lot of Reddit kind of trying to break it down I think you could probably make sense of it sometimes.

It feels like they are constantly going through a presidential election, and there's another one on the horizon that Shiv references several times. But this is the same one that was haunting the previous season. So, okay. The Justin Kirk character, like, it appears that we are headed towards, that the election will figure into the season, and that that was more like the anointing who might get the nomination. Maybe the primaries or something like that.

It was the primaries, yeah. Okay. In any case, you know, so basically, this is essentially an negotiation episode. Logan is stewing about getting older and his deal with Gojo imminently approaching and the breaking up of his company and imminently approaching. But he's not being surrounded by the ones he loves to hate. He's the kids are on the other side of the country. And Logan is largely surrounded by like the senators, the Jerry's, the Franks of the world, Connor, Tom. While the kids are off in Los Angeles, plotting out this.

this, as Kendall describes it, substack meets masterclass, meets the economist, meets the New Yorker, which I guess is kind of just substack. Media company called the 100, and they're going through all these, you know,

logos and giving, like, their feedback. And it's a great portrait of, like, Roman is actually, like, maybe getting somewhat good at his job. Kendall comes in, eating what I imagine to be organic beef jerky or, you know,

some sort of a sible powdered into a bag and Shiv is playing both sides against the middle, taking meetings with, I believe, a Democratic presidential hopeful Jimenez. Yes. Okay. So we got all that. To the extent that I understand

multinational media conglomerates and their mergers, like I said, I think Logan is planning to break up Waystar Royco, give this sort of bricks and mortar or pipes to Lucas Mattson over Gojo and then spin off the news division. and he wants to, like you said, buttress the news division by buying this Kandei Nast ex-company

PGM, which is run by Nan Pierce and her kids and the cousins and all these other people who are kind of New England aristocracy. The action of the episodes, which is back and forth between New York and California is the two sides of the Roy family vibe for PGN. And then is it PGM or PGN? I think it's PGM. Sorry. The transaction seems to bring the kids closer together, which is funny because it isolates Logan even more.

he winds up having a birthday dinner at a diner with his security guard Colin and really gives quite a McBain speech at this thing. It turns into a comedy of manners with Cherry Jones doing, you know, essentially having each part of this family bidding on the company until the kids finally bid $10 billion for it. And Logan, he lets him take it. He lets him take it down. This episode ends with Shiv flying back to New York,

seeing Tom very late at night, pretty much deciding that they were going to get a divorce, which Tom had spoken to earlier about, talked to Logan about that a little bit earlier. And it's both a bittersweet moment. It's, you know, these two people kind of being like, Tom wants to talk it out, Shiv doesn't want to talk it out.

Tom's like, if you want to talk it out, I also have some issues I'd like to bring up with you, not just my infidelity. And then they have a very kind of tender moment holding hands in bed saying that they had given it a shot. So that's more or less the action of the episode. We're going to get into a lot of the different details. But I thought it was, I thought that the, you know, especially in the Logan Colin moment,

the sort of sense of an ending is very much there. And I think you could also see that in the Tom Schiff divorce, that this relationship is kind of coming to a conclusion as well. Yeah. And I think it was really sad. Like I think, again, I think that the minor key melody that is becoming Don already in this season was really, really notable. And I, and, you know, to go back to the first point I made, like, I feel like that was telling him something.

You know, I think that there are certain things that you can, even just in the construction of this episode, that you can forgive now. And one of the things being, I mean, you named it, that the kids are really only motivated by fucking over their father. And he is really only motivated when they are fucking up or around to kick and abuse. I think the way the information gets to them, which is Tom nervously calling Shiv to say, like, you might hear about this that I was seen with Naomi Pierce, but it wasn't a date. And then everything snowballing because that makes it clear what Logan is up to.

If you were going to poke at a weak point in the episode, that would be it. Because Tom is many things, but he is also careful, you know. And I think that it plays into the larger scheme of like what, what is he more vulnerable to, personal or professional. But that was a little convenient. So I'll push back a little bit there because you're right. And Succession has a tradition of everything happening during somebody's birthday, somebody's party, somebody's wedding, somebody's something.

Like it's never just like a Wednesday and somebody gets a phone call. But Tom has now proven himself over the last two seasons to be a very. savvy operator. Yes. And I think that he's the character I was almost the most fascinated by in this episode. And the trajectory of this character

over the last two seasons from kind of the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, like, background player who's there to eat the Ordilon, you know, say the incredibly amazing thing to Greg. The elder disgusting brother,

if you will. Yeah, the senior disgusting brother to... somebody who's kind of trying to find their center in this family chaos and the fact that he betrayed Shiv and the kids in the finale of season three maybe betrayed Logan in the beginning of season four here in episode one but also seems very aware that his only usefulness to Logan is as a bridge to Shiv yes so I agree with this and I'm glad you brought this up I think that Because that scene with him and Logan is my favorite of the episode.

I thought that was incredible. The scene with him and Logan is incredible where he's like, I'm heartened. I'm heartened to hear that. If we're good, we're good. Yeah. Yeah, that they're not, he's absolutely nothing to him. And that's reminding him of that. And so Tom's incredibly precarious position is consistent and makes sense that he would then

just leak a little bit on both sides in the attempt to just stay afloat no matter what occurs. That does make sense. I also think it's remarkable the way a character, to your point, who was drawn as more broadly comic and not exactly a licksbiddle, but definitely, you know, just ambitious at the very beginning. A little cartoon. Has come to be, in many ways, the emotional center of the show. And partly that's due to the just, you know, God-tier performance by Matthew McFadgin

that continues and only gets richer and deeper as these seasons go on and he sinks deeper into the character. But I thought it was really noteworthy that for all of the... the circus and the, you know, the, the way those siblings are together and the way that Logan isn't when they're not around and just how lonely he is to be on his birthday party begging for people to take shots at him so he can feel anything, you know, the end of the episode was very, very specifically chosen to have these two characters who somehow remain and their relationship remains the only sort of like moral or emotional anchor we have. And as I was

watching that moment on the show anyway, and as I was watching, that moment of them saying things and evading and, you know, Tom emoting with his eyes and shifting away when they lie down on the bed, is this, I mean, I didn't rewatch all three seasons, so I cannot speak to this. But it certainly felt like this was the first time two characters on the show have been silent together, maybe ever and certainly in a long, long, long, long time. The last time any significant character on the show was left alone, he sank to the bottom of the pool. Yes. Like, the show turned that point you were making about,

there's always seems to be a party from a bug into a feature in the sense that they're so desperately lonely. And the only human connection that sustains them and keeps them alive is being abused by their quote-unquote loved ones. Yeah. And they don't shut up. They cannot shut up. I mean, one of the more striking things about rewatching that finale was, I think my memory of the Kendall in the dust scene was Jeremy Strong's astonishing performance when he's confessing what happened to the kid. And I remembered very strongly, Shiv's, like, and Sarah Snook's great performance as well, being like, I don't know what to do with this. Can we call someone?

I don't know, but I'm putting a hand on him trying. I forgot that the most honest part of that whole scene is Kieran Culkin's performance when he's just like, you think you had it bad. I couldn't get it. I waited 45 minutes for a gin and tonic. And he pushes and it's inappropriate and he pushes and it's awful and he pushes one more time and he gets a laugh, you know. But that is how these people are to each other. they don't have another setting. And so for those two, and for the episode of the last season, the premiere of the last season,

to end with that, they had nothing to say was really striking. That's a really good question about when are people quiet with one another on this show. I mean, I guess you could go back to Safe Room when Shiv and Kendall Hugg.

I think that's when he's like, it's not going to be me. And he's, that's when he's basically like, Logan's bag man for that stretch of time. But they pull a, away afterwards. Yeah.

Because it's, it's too intimate. It's not that it's the only sign of intimacy. It's that they hold hands and then they don't do anything else, you know, which is a different kind of intimacy that the show is, these characters are just absolutely mortified by and uncomfortable with. Let's talk a little bit about Kendall. Should we try being silent together on a podcast? Do you think that would work?

Well, this is my question. Is there a world where we would have been right for the hundred? I thought, I thought about this, too. We combine a lot of the ethos of both the New Yorker and the economist. Now, I don't know, Kaya, like, where your head's at on this one. So it's a little bit difficult to say because we can't make any moves without Kaya. But would a Petro state come in and back a new media venture, it may be the right time for us to leave Bill behind. You know what I mean?

Especially when we could have such stable management. I also think that the real slam dunk. here is the combined age of all the media outlets that Kendall's referencing. Because when you get into new, new, new media, you want to be as old as possible in the sense that like you want to be like things that are only relevant to people our age and above. Well, you know, it's so funny you should mention that. Because I was like, for a second, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is a consequence of it taking maybe a year to make a TV show because would there have been an AI chatbot joke somewhere in here? You know, like,

Would Kendall have already moved on to the newest thing? But in fact, I think Kendall probably would still be like, yeah, substack, like the marketplace of ideas. Like, yeah, I think that would be. He's a Roy, which is in and of itself obsolete, right? Like, that's what made it so perfect because the idea of what innovation has become, which is I'm just going to take a bunch of things and put my arms around them and then sell it to you. Yeah.

You know, like these companies, especially in the last few years when, when, and I'm, you know, thinking about some great podcast that Derek Thomas, Thompson did recently talking about this, although he clearly wasn't the only one, but like money was cheap, so you could borrow stuff and you could like subsidize your whatever to get shareholder growth or get, you know, go public or whatever the case was. But like all these companies that were like, you have cookie pans now, but you've never had them be blue. What if we had took the middleman out of cookie pens? Yeah, and like just straight to you. And it's just like, wait, what? Like it does look good on Instagram, but excuse me, I don't even bake that often. So I thought that was very, very. And also just by. the way, just like, people tuning in know we're going to be praising the show, but like, that was a bit that lasted the first 16 minutes of the episode, and it was

so choice. It was so, it's essentially a one-act play where... He's dead on. If you took out the cutaways to Logan's party, those kids do a one-act play in that living room, which is such a fucking, you know, whatever the next level of VRBO, or is it verbo or whatever. You know, like, I don't obviously frequent it. And, like,

whatever the next rent me a mansion in L.A. for two days so that I can lounge around in the living room and take calls from Dubai is the perfect house. It's the perfect setting. And those three performers primarily, although I got a lot of time for T. The banker. That guy was really good. That was like, Billy Magnuson is too big now, but like, let's have a lot of Billy Magnuson energy in this room. Yes. Also, you could help me with this. But like, because as you know, and increasingly our readers, our readers, our listeners know. Like, I really do listen to a lot of sports podcasts because that's what I do when the Philadelphia sports teams are good. Yeah.

And these three just knowing how to play with each other, you know, because for all the talk and the chatter and just the, like, social media spackle about like Jeremy Strong acts in a weird way and some people think it's weird, throw all that out and the show doesn't work without him. Right. His energy, his performance, his choices, his commitment, insightfulness about what makes this total fucking weirdo, made up weirdo tick is so crucial. And the way it opens up the field for what Sarah Snook does and what Kieran Culkin does, so for them to play with a feeling of freedom, right? Like, it's just a remarkable offense, let's just say.

And I love long-running TV shows for many reasons. One of them is this, that when Jesse, got his writers together and they're like, how are we going to start the season? He didn't have to really like script a whole new offense. He knew the plays to call. He knew who to put on the field and let that go. And so I really like what you're saying about it being almost theatrical because, you know, there's the phone call.

And then when Jiv returns, she grabs the bottled water. And she's doing something very disturbing, which is that she's clearly flustered. Yeah. She has emotions. And not committed to this incredibly important media project. But more than that. She's like flustered in her heart, which makes, you know, which makes Roman very uncomfortable. And then it just sort of continues to spin out.

And the way they just build and build in the interplay, it's, you know, that's, that alone makes this so much more delicious than any other show on TV. There are all these great moments from that sequence of scenes, I guess. But my favorite is definitely Kendall's self-awareness to be like I've smoked horse. So I need something that totally absorbs me because otherwise I spin out. And also there are three. of them, their self-awareness about what it is that they do

whereas like, it's funny that Kendall is kind of like the de facto presumptive error and that he's the one who's made the runs at the king the most when Roman obviously has this like strange natural ability

when it comes to this stuff and Shiv is obviously like her head's spinning all the time about like what should be the job how to best look out for herself, essentially. It is kind of amazing how he writes these people so that they know just enough about themselves

to make a joke about it, but not enough to ever save their lives. But Roman's not a killer. You know, I think that was, you know, we sort of loosely, you know, we've done a lot of podcasting about the show. And I feel like one of the sort of ideas or theories that was tossed off was,

you know, season one was Kendall, season two was Shiv, season three was more Roman. That's entirely. Highly reductive because all three characters, not to mention actors, did incredible work in each of the seasons. But the stuff that was going on with Roman at the end of the season, and again, I'm going to keep referencing the finale because I watched it right before watching 401. But his face, when they are driving to stick a knife in their father, his face when his father says, come on, son. Let's get away from these idiots. That played right into this episode. He doesn't have the killer instinct. He's sort of a soft.

broken boy. And that's something to watch. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't

plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com. slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast.

Available in select areas, terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant, 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo. com forward slash active cash terms apply. Let's talk a little bit about the

the Logan side of things. Let's start with Kerry. Still a puzzle. Take some L's in this episode in terms of her treatment by the kids. But is one of those, yeah, exactly what you're saying, a mystery box of a character who has been essentially in the background

of this show for its entire run, I think. I think she really emerged last season. I don't know when she debuted on the show. Well, I guess it speaks to my point, which is that it feels like there has been a carry in an like there's Jess and there's carry and there are these people who are kind of like working in the wings of these main characters. And she hadn't been elevated yet to a Frank Jerry kind of level.

And now all of a sudden is a pretty important player in all of this. And I wanted to ask you whether you thought she was there mostly to tell Logan things and to kind of be another force in that room. Or do you feel like there's something there? Do you feel like there's a character developing there? Do you think we'll get some information about her? And to what extent do you think that matters?

By the way, so Carrie has been in 10 episodes of the show thus far. She debuted at the end of season two. So you're right, essentially, that she has been percolating. and we just Zoe Winters is the actor. Yeah. It does feel interesting because the show does not hide the ball. You know, generally like within an episode, there might be something going on that we're not fully tracking.

But by the end of the episode, that card is generally turned. And we know where people stand or what's happening. The Kerry business has been sort of surprising because she stepped forward and more and more forward. And then there was all the business in the end of the last season. when everyone was clucking about it and talking about it and is Logan sleeping with her. And they started saying that in front of him. And he would just sort of give them the eye.

And then when Logan is just like, you need to get straightened out to Roman, he's like, fine-looking woman is how he begins that conversation, right? And then there's the whole thing in the finale about Connor's checking the ingredients of his dad's smoothie. And it's, you know, it's all like sperm rocket fuel or whatever. Like the idea that he's going to, this is straight out of like Game of Thrones stuff, but like make another air. I think that that was a Bolton strategy, if I remember correctly. Yes.

So it's interesting. Either there is some great there there and there's a mystery that was going to be revealed, or maybe the show is what it's always been, and we know what we need to know, which is that there is a, if you'll pardon the expression, a succession of carries in Logan's life, that he always needs someone doing his bidding. But that her being the only person left at the start of the season, is causing him to realize what he's done. Because, you know, Marcia's gone.

She's permanently shopping in Italy. Yeah, I was like, is that a euphemism for had another show contract? Or, you know, that's the other thing about the show that's remarkable is that it is incredibly loyal and generous to the people that resonate and that matter to the world, whether it's Jay Smith, Cameron and David Rashi like being elevated to the main cast. But it's also not sentimental. about people who don't have a function, you know, to be a regular cast member anymore. And they can still go back and grab Naomi.

You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing is that... Cherry Jones showing up in the show is just like, man, that's awesome, that they can just get probably for one scene. Yeah. Will we see Stewie again? I hope so, you know, like, because he's a great actor and a great character. You're fucking better.

It's part of the world. So, but anyway, all of this was to say, the carry thing as a red herring or a mystery. I'm less interested in at this point, but I did appreciate, I mean, just the, like, your father would appreciate a birthday call from you because she's reading the room and knows that she knows what's going on because she's watching the show like we are. But the way that Roman speaks to her is just so gnarly. I also was kind of jumping off as something that Carrie asks Greg in this episode is, did you get a sense for yourself? And I know that you're really good at at divining stuff like this.

Is random fuck like a family name? Or do you think that got, you know, is that, where do you think her cultural background is? Random fuck? I mean, I can speak from some familial experience that things at Ellis Island got real testy and bored, you know? There's the Andy Goju that I was waiting for. Well, look, like when it's not GoJew, well, no, okay,

so what happened in Europe was they said GoJew, they invested heavily in GoJew stock, and Jews went. and went to Ellis Island. And that's how you end up with scenarios where there's like a lot of people, a lot of people, okay, a small percentage of people

in these American streets with the last name Greenwood. And that some of us are Greenwald where like the guy at Ellis Island was like, I'm going to translate half your name. Yeah. See how that fucking feels.

So yes. I do feel some ethnic kinship with Ms. Random fuck, but I think it may have been just an epithet. So Andy and I are recording this in a little bit of a vacuum so we haven't seen like a ton of recaps or explainers about this.

But did you read Bridget Random Fuck as the Pierce who is at Logan's birthday party? Because isn't there a Pierce who's like tagged in a picture? Oh, there's a reference to that because no, I think that it's more that so, you know, this, again,

this was beginning last season with Comfrey, who I hope does return at some point, great character, and great podcaster. I know you've always been a fan. Yeah. Greg is kind of feeling himself a little bit and like maybe realizing that he can maybe do others do to his money or his insane height, you know, he can he can pull a different class of lady and is just sort of feeling it a little bit, maybe along with his disgusting brother

Tom. But I get it. It was just such like a beautifully constructed Greg plot that he would feel himself a little too much in addition to being felt too much under the watchful eye of Logan's CCTV cameras. which I think was a lie, but still is really funny. It doesn't matter. And then Greg being like, we put our hands in each other's pants. We rummaged.

They rummaged to fruition. Anyway, there's no way that woman could be a pierce because she was like, and then I went up to Logan and was like, congratulations on the sale, Caching. It's so funny. Yeah, but like one of the things that I think when I watch the show is who gave them the memo. Who gave them the memo that these are. are the $200 t-shirts you wear under a $500 blazer, and these are the $200 t-shirts you wear as pajamas.

This is where you hang your sunglasses. You know what I mean? Like dressing anonymously, but extravagantly is what you do. You know what I mean? And one of the many brilliant things about the show is that throughout its run, Greg has never gotten that right. There was one thing wrong that he wasn't told any of that. So he's learned how to dress now, and now he's learned how to speak to people or or maneuver or flirt. But fundamentally, he is a bull in a china shop. And it's just funny, man. His reaction when Colin's like, I got to get, get this woman out of here now.

And he's just like, we all must do what we are asking this. This is what you must do. Does he call it Abu Ghraib or Bagram or Guantanamo? I don't want to see what happens at Guantanamo. Yeah. It's rough. Here's my Tom thing. I'm sorry to circle back to this,

but I kind of had Tom and Greg together. Pull me in if I'm going straight here. Sometimes we have talked about, or I guess lightly critiqued the show, for there being soft resets on characters, especially after emotionally significant moments, specifically Kendall, but I think the same applies to Shiv,

where situations will happen, there could be a betrayal, a breakdown, a breakthrough, whatever it is. Somebody is like vulnerable, exposed, yada, yada. And then it somewhat feels like in the next episode that we see them because some time has passed or whatever,

but also because it's convenient to the rinse and repeat nature of television that Kendall is not always going to feel battered and bruised, right? Like he's going to walk in and go, oh, Romi! Like he is going to have his swagger back to some extent, even if it's empty.

and I accept that. The thing that actually jumped out at me about this episode the most was that Tom was different since the moment at the end of episode season three. And that Tom, I wouldn't say was confidently navigating that room

but was the guy on the phone was kind of funny with Greg in a way that was almost like, you small fool, like you don't understand the bigger game here, you don't do something like that, was clear-eyed with Shiv and was just kind of like,

do we want to talk about who hurt who in this relationship? And seemed altogether a different guy in a way that made step-by-step sense. Like the guy who we see three months since the season finale is somebody who I think has gone on that journey,

whereas sometimes I think characters, Kendall, the kids specifically, will kind of go back to their, they'll regress to the norm of their character. And so Roman will go back to being a smart alec, and Kendall will go back to being the prince who was promised, but who was also full of shit, and Shiv will be kind of an operator.

Do you think I'm out, is that too out there? I think it's very perceptive. I think two things. I was just speaking about Greg and his usage and as a POV character for the non-ultra wealthy members of the audience and how useful that was. I think secretly the truth is that Tom is the POV character because he has infiltrated this world and learned how to exist in it, but he is not of this world. And I think that he is profoundly in his Midwestern bones appalled by aspects of it.

And most people do not change. Like that is true in life and it's true in long-running TV shows. But change is possible. You just have to work at it. And often it comes through some sort of emotional devastation or reckoning, quite frankly. And if you think about the notes on the acting keyboard that Matthew McFadgin uncovered during the scene where he and Schiff were like, I would just be maybe a little less sad, you know, still one of the like Rushmore scenes, I think, of this show.

Those notes have been available to him since then, I think, and are increasingly prominent. And it's interesting. I think it's almost like he stands out as changing because the outrageous degree that no one else does. So it's like he's staying still for the first time and the world's spinning away from him and it's starting to feel like that. So to me, you know, and I don't,

I think both of us feel this way. You know, we don't really love to get into like the prognostication game because I don't think it's that kind of show. But I think the idea that Tom, quote unquote, wins is foolish because I think if anything Tom has the potential of a victory of walking away. Yeah. Which is a different kind of win,

and a win maybe more in tune with the show that Jesse Armstrong is making as opposed to the 10 season, let's fucking have fun, showtime version of the show that we have all been just relishing and enjoying, or at least enjoying the potential existence of. I was thinking about him specifically

when he asks Logan about whether or not breaking the end of his marriage with Shiv would also be a problem for Logan and kind of compromise Tom in terms of his usefulness. Because when they're doing the bidding, when the kids are bidding against Logan, and really the only financial conversation

that they have is how their banker would rather make $35 million in fees off of a major acquisition than $5 million in fees by doing like a VC round to start the 100. None of this fucking matters. Whether it was $6 billion or $8 billion or $10 billion, and like, it's just, it's not real to them.

Or Conner's 100 mil, but you'd still be rich, right? Right. He's like, yeah, yeah, of course. But $100 million less. 100 million less rich, but I wouldn't be in the conversation. Right. There's stakes for Tom, you know? Like, this is like a guy from relatively modest.

I don't know how modest, but like more modest than the Roy's in Minnesota. I think it's been said, like, canonically that it's relatively modest, middle class. Yeah. And. Midwestern. I think one of the things that happens in the world of this show, but I think even in the real world where if you have this kind of political extremism, I don't know what I'm trying to say,

but basically if you work at Fox and you come out of Fox now, let's just say, I would imagine that Fox being your resume on your resume would maybe raise red flags for some people. And they'd be like, what do you, you know, so what did you do at Fox News? So let's just say Tom leaving ATM would be like it's not like he's going to go work for NBC

MSNBC, right? Like it's maybe he would. But like my point being is like Tom is in a situation where the things that he is acquired could be taken away from him. The kids live in a world where nothing they do can stop who they are. I think that's a good point.

I also think it's worth saying that none of these people have any value to the world outside of their value to Logan Roy. And that's been made clear. Like there's a reason why the senior circle are old. I mean, there's a reason why Peter, Jerry, and Carl

are all getting up there. They're not getting golden parachutes. They're not going to work somewhere else and that's reflected in their behavior. But similarly, like, the kids can make themselves feel relevant, but nobody's trying to poach them as executives. And I think the best evidence of all of this

is that is a Jeannie Berlin's character, right? Sid, I think. Yeah. She is also, you know, she's phenomenal and amazing and a joy to see on screen. she's not a spring chicken and that Logan is up late and she's available for a cell phone call being berated about he doesn't like the neck of the guy on his TV channel. I mean, that's the job.

He calls him a ball sack wearing a toupee. Yeah. And that's her job is to take that call and then to address it. That's what they all are. And that's what that's what that kind of institution is. It's just, it's just rotten, you know. I mean, that's not new. That's not a new observation.

but the kind of the decay, I guess, is the thing you begin to feel as we approach the end. So thus concludes most of the dramatic action of this episode. I was going to ask a couple of smaller note questions. So Nan Pierce is in Napa or Napa adjacent? No, Santa Barbara. They were drivable from L.A. Because I was wondering if, like, the light had been significantly changed. by the time they arrived at Nance.

No, and it's also, that's the only place where you can kind of see Ocean City and Vineyards. They're up above Santa Barbara. Okay. Where I would like to be. Another question I had was... And wait, by the way, before you get off that,

just, yes, Cherry Jones is amazing. But, like, the way the show is such a brilliantly designed scalpel that it can do all of the things we're saying in terms of what it's parodying, the satire, the jokes. But when it turns its attention to something else, like the inherent oxymoronic nature of feel-good liberal capitalism, it's just a savage and genius where she's like, oh, I just hate this.

Oh, I hate all of this, but could you go to $10 billion? I mean, everybody has a number, you know, and it's incredible when the show does these subtle little things to make you, I don't know if it's empathized with Logan, but be like, well, yeah, if you're going to be in a shark tank, be a fucking shark. I wonder whether or not the bringing the Pierce

Pierce's back these references to Gojo I assume Scars Guard's gonna show up at some point he's in the trailer yeah but it almost feels like

Jesse Armstrong wiping the whiteboard a little bit and being like we're gonna kind of get through all of the like lingering mergers and acquisitions stuff

from the last season in the first episode I don't know any obviously like there's this I don't want to get too deep into like future casting what's going to happen on the show. But I noted with interest that this was essentially like the punctuation point at the end of a two-season negotiation essentially because the Nampier

stuff happens in season two, right, with Holly Hunter. And then the Lucas Mattson stuff is season three. You know, obviously there will still be some shoes to drop. And I have a, I have to wonder whether or not, like, Logan knows something that those kids don't when he gets them. drives them up to $10 billion and then is like congratulations. But also he can't leave a scab unpicked, right? Like what he's feeling in the beginning is, this is why I referenced that line from the season finale of season three. He's bored.

He's deeply, profoundly, existentially bored. And when his kids blow it all up, his blood's back. His blood is back up. And so does that mean the deal is going to go through smoothly? I would doubt it. Not the Pierce deal, but the whole thing, the Gojo deal. I mean, I just feel like that's... And again, to bring our conversation full,

circle, nobody needs my approval, but I feel deeply okay with that. Whereas if this was just another season of three to four more to come, you'd be like, okay, at a certain point, stop running towards Lucy, Charlie Brown. Like, we get it. But no, this is this is the spiraling, tragic, Vognarian downfall of something. That's always what it's been. And now we can really, really rev the engine. The last thing I have here on my list of questions for you is, how come you haven't had a cardinal at one of your birthdays? it's embarrassing because, you know, in my defense, there were invites sent to Ozzie Smith and Yadda or Malina. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. You know, it didn't, I realize now that's not

what you were asking. It probably goes against the cardinal way to show up at your birthday, though. They should be shagging fly balls. Yeah, and they'd also just, they'd have to show up for everyone's birthday, right? That's right. Because the most beloved team, best fans. Who is the culturally or religiously significant person ever to show up at one of your birthdays, do you think? That's a good question, man. For me, I guess I could say a rabbi due to my bar mitzvah, but I don't think that really matters that much in the scheme of things.

I think I've had largely godless birthdays, to be completely honest, especially in my 20s. I would agree with that. My 20s were borderline pagan. You know, like some mild wicker man vibes. my 20s. Yeah, I think that tracks. We definitely burn some shit outside of bars in New York City when I turned 23. Do you remember much of that birthday?

I don't. That's a legendary one. For one's worth, we all had a good time at your party after you left. I got dragged out, though. Yeah. No. Not dragged out by security. I was, I just, I had too many shots. Yeah. You were carried by friends.

And then the next time we saw you, you were like Kendall coming back to the villa with the bottle of Lucasaid being like just a few too many ngronies. Nothing to see here. I think I did go out for a beer the next day. God, being in your 20s is incredible. Right, Kai? All-Stars back then, man. I think I had a Miller High Life the next day after like truly like having like an alien

burst out of my stomach that night. We were all young once and now. You guys wonder why I identify with Kendall. What else you got for me? Anything? I got nothing. I think that it's nice when returning shows return as themselves. You know, there just wasn't, there's no need.

There's no need to be something else or to do a hard pivot or reboot or reinvention. So let's go. You know, I also think, again, and we'll talk about this more as the season goes on, but things begin to fall into place and make sense retroactively, right? Because now if you're thinking of it says a four-part story, all of a sudden it's one story. It's not just, well, the season two business was about the Pierce's, and then we'll have a different business in season three. So it's just that it's a really cool, and I know we're going to feel sad, we're going to feel cheated, we're going to feel disappointed in some ways when the show's over and when it doesn't come back. It definitely is the end of something, not just in terms of this type of storytelling or this specific show, but it feels significant for it to be ending in a year when Hollywood is in such flux and the TV business in general.

But it is really cool to know that this is planned and it's driving in a direction and it's driving. driving there fast. And we're going to get to see what we get to see along the way. And where it's driving is a Scandy noir about a woman detective living in Copenhagen named Bridget Random fuck. But with the, how would they format that to make it like a Scandy show? Oh, well, yeah, you'd definitely put, definitely put, definitely put, some dots over some of the vowels. Yeah, right. Some oomlots in there. Yeah. Okay, Andy, so we're going to be doing this Sunday nights going forward. Everybody should check it out. we've also got an abundance of stuff on the prestige TV pod right now talking about succession,

talking about yellow jackets, talking about everything else. So lots of TV podcasting for you to take in. Greenwald, great to see your face. Thank you all, as always, to Kai McMullen. And we will be back on Thursday.