The Watch - The Best ‘House of the Dragon’ Episode Yet? Plus, ‘Star City’ Episode 7.

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the World Cup match between England and Mexico (1:10) and the ways the World Cup may be affecting the box office performance of movies like ‘Minions & Monsters’ (8:32). Then they discuss ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 3, Episode 3 (17:13) and ‘Star City’ Episode 7 (38:47). Later, they check back in on ‘The Agency’ Season 2 (52:20). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, fresh off a nine-hour Twitch stream with Jalen Brown, it's Andy Greenwald.

What do you mean? I just had a colonoscopy. What's up, brother? It's great to see you. Good to see you, too. It's The Watch. It's Monday. A lot to talk about.

today on the show July 4th Taylor Swiss wedding England, Mexico where would LeBron James live in the tri-state area if you were to become a sixer

House of the Dragon the agency Star City good God but I only have an hour to talk to you so I'm just kidding

that's exciting it's great to see the watch at Spotify.com the watch pod underscore and Instagram yeah ringer dash TV on YouTube

you can watch us and listen to us on Spotify which I hope you're doing but you can also find us elsewhere I wish they simulcast us on BBC World Service. I think that could be arranged.

I think we have a fan base over there. How are you? How is your England-Mexico experience? I mean, that was one of the greatest sports events of my life. I mean this sincerely, and I understand what it would do to cheapen the nature of the event, but I wish there was World Cup every day for the rest of my time on this cursed earth.

Specifically, I want knockouts, but I want three of them a day that start at nine and end at like 830. and I want both the Cinderella teams to win but also for the best players to keep playing. Yes, and I want both teams to do their celebrations at the end because I love all of them. Only we had a leader who could make that happen.

Only a guy would step into the void and say it's me. This is actually about me. Only I can fix it. Only he can fix FIFA. It's true. It's true. I mean, when you have, it's just a shame to see yet another institutionally clean organization

lose its guardrails. You know what I mean? Like just historically, FIFA has always been so delightful. I seriously. I mean, it is truly like it's like the heart recognizing its counterpoint in another.

It's beautiful. These two deserve each other. I just want to say we were recording this at 10 a.m. on Monday, so the USA plays Belgium in a couple of hours. Insanly bad sports karma. The worst.

Like DeBroyne Masterclass is incoming. Yeah, I think that's likely. I think it's good Like look Every country would do it if they could Yeah also It is it is by far The most shit house sport in the world

Like people have won on hand balls There have been hunters They kidnapped people to win World Cups I'm just saying I just want to say As a long time football fanatic At least as far back as June Yeah

That was a bullshit red card Which whose? Baligans But I agree. I usually like to... So you agree with them on some points. I just think nobody's wrong 100% of the time. It's true.

Okay? I mean, show me who among us. This is a television pod that is increasingly just a friendship pod, which I think is good for us. But in terms of the television, the World Cup is the best television of the year. Yes. And I genuinely, like most of the time,

and I'll make this about me because I rarely do that, I feel bad for me, like when my children won't, watch sports with me because I like watching sports. I feel bad for them that they are not watching this. I felt bad if you're listening to this and last night you're like, oh, the legally blonde prequel is on Amazon. Let's fire that up. What are you doing?

Yeah. What are you doing with your life? That was so wild. My two favorite countries in the world to visit at each other's throats. So it does come back to you. The Andy Bowl? Yeah. Come on.

That was awesome. Ultimately, ultimately. Sure. On the record right now Who are you cheering for? Who am I cheering for the most? Who were you cheering for? That's England.

I've been there more recently. I can see both sides of the argument. Trying to secure the L.A. vote. Incredible. The other thing that I want to say about this match, though, it was incredible drama, incredible television, incredible sport. But it was also a match.

that began airing at 2 a.m. GMT. Yes. And we were texting with people who were... That's what they called the time zone in England. Oh, look at you. Man of the People. Greenwich Mean Time. We were texting with people who were awake for this match. And I got to say...

In England. In England. Yes. And I got... Barely me. I got to say, if the situation was reversed and whether it was the USMNT playing in a... in the middle of the night for us, or if it was the Eagles, because I tried this last, like, the whole Super Bowl season of the Eagles,

they began that season playing a spirited contest in Brazil that I learned about via text messages from you and Zach when I woke up in England the next morning. Yes. So, like, I'm just saying I don't have that gear, and I don't know if it's a particularly, like, an age thing. Do you think that part of the reason the English were able to stay awake is, in fact, gear?

Well said. Have you thought about that? Well said. Do you think that all the lads down at the pub weren't just, they weren't on the Guinness all night? I'll just say this. More than that? I would not be shocked if the last season of industry, the final season of industry, is about a coked-out trader who arrives at work at 7 a.m. And accidentally caused a financial crisis.

Straight from the pub. From the session. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But do you think you have it in you just purely on vibes? Like just natural, the natural stimulant of enthusiasm. Yeah, because honestly, the thing that was almost more intoxicating than the match itself was the buildup.

The buildup was so, I, it is a real, like, I will never quit this app moment was the pure storytelling chops of the world's collected meme makers as we. And also, again, when you watch Harry Kane sing a narco carido, like, you really are kind of like in the loving embrace. Two of the best. It was sentient intelligence. Two of the best meme creating cultures, I would say. The Morrissey Bowl, as I heard this match referred to. Yes. Any final thoughts?

I believe Jordan Henderson played for Liverpool. He did. Yeah, that was basically the closest thing we had to representation on this team. So for people, representation matters, Chris. For people who aren't up on the World Cup and have not hit skip, skip, skip, skip, Jordan Henderson's performance last night was elite. He did not enter the match as a player. He was capped in the sense that he received a yellow card for talking shit.

He was essentially brought to provide veteran leadership and vibes. And the payoff on that, the return on that ticket was he got a yellow card for talking shit from the bench. And then in the celebration, he slipped and broke his wrist. He was up on an advertising hoarding during Wonderwall. And when he was trying to get down, he fell and seriously broke. his wrist. Like had to be airlifted to a hospital. Yes, I needed oxygen.

I mean, everybody needed oxygen. Yeah. I needed oxygen. Yes. But yes. And thus Liverpool's World Cup ends. Yeah. That's amazing. What other pop culture stuff?

I will say, and I'm sure Sean and Amanda will hit this because I'm stealing Sean's point. I saw him over the weekend and he made this point, which is essentially that you can tell that the World Cup is mega because... like Minions was down bad. Oh, was it? And Supergirl continued to be down. Like, I don't, I think this is actually like,

yeah, I personally forgot that I did House of R talk the thrones. When it came up on my feet, I was like, damn, I did that. Like, that show is on tonight. In your defense, in order to combat altitude in the House of R studio, you were absolutely gagged on Beat Rout and Viagra. Like the English national team. Yeah. Performance matters and everything.

Yeah, I mean, look. I don't know, maybe people haven't seen what was an honestly, like, awesome episode of House of the Dragon. I am excited to talk to you about. I also did. I watched that episode before any of the knockout round matches this weekend, so I think it's going to be interesting. Do we have conference? I heard prior to the weekend that Illumination, animation, entertainment, corporation confirmed that the minions at no point worked for Adolf Hitler.

Do we have? What? Yeah, they were asked about it. this. Are the minions a period piece? Yes. This is the thing. Okay, we'll get back. But I wanted to know if you think they've worked for Carmine and Finino. But, yes, so. Carmine? Isn't it? Gianni. Gianni? Yeah. Why don't I call him Carmine? Because you're racist against Italians? I don't know. Let me know next time they make the Mundial, okay? Oh, Carmine Infantino was the publisher of DC Comics. It's actually worse. I'm both racist and a big dork. This is this is, this is, this is

My Super Bowl. But you're going to do the Bill Simmons. I'm half Italian, so it's okay. I promise you, I am not. But I did sleep at Holiday and Express last night. Oh my God.

There you go. That's why I thought that. Anyway, the minions, it's been established that these small little yellow friends have been in existence throughout history. And what they do is

they find a menacing evil power and bootlick and do whatever they can to serve whoever. has been evil throughout history. So there's like funny little shorts where they're helping a mean caveman. And then the caveman dies and they're like, ooh,

and they go help someone else. So they're eternal? Yes. And this movie that came out this weekend that I also completely forgot about, I believe is a period piece set in the silent film era. Okay. No, it's really weird.

If you... I can't believe it only made like $35 million. Frankly, I want to protect you from... Like, if you peel back the onion, here. This is the line that I draw. Okay. And I shall not pass. I'm not going into the Minions verse. But so I see it. I see like the minions out on the highway.

You see a big one coming up over. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm familiar with their vibe. I know that like somebody, who did they, somebody saying bohemian rhapsody in Minion. They're saying like there's lots of, who said that? The internet. It's like there are jokes about Emily Blunt speaks in Minion and Disclosure Day and stuff like that. Does she? Are you, are you Googling Carmine Ampetino right now? No, I know everything about Carly and Vendino, the late great.

But yeah, like, my only point was just that, like, it was sort of amazing to see an event, an event becomes so massive. Yeah. And I think between World Cup and people simply using data centers to power their Taylor Swift wedding snooping. Yeah. Like, everybody stayed home this weekend. Or, you know, went out to July 4th party, but did not go to minions and did not go to, did not go see obsession probably because everybody on the planet already saw it.

So this is a headline. Again, you missed this because you could just chalk it up to the World Cup or your lovely holiday travel that we did together. But this is a headline from deadline, July 2nd. Dateline, July 2nd. Minions and Monsters Director makes it clear, Minions never... Dateline Burbank.

Minions... No, dateline a bunker underneath Berlin. Minions never worked for Hitler. Okay. Now, did they take a meeting? Do you have the phone call? They were tech avail. You have the phone call.

Who, I mean, I mean, it also then opens up the follow-up. So were they with Mussolini? Yeah, exactly. What were they doing in the 40s? Minions and Monster co-writer, director, by the way, do you know the guy that created the minions is named Pierre Coffin?

See, how deep does this thing go? Because he's buried under that money. Dude, for real, though. It was a wild fan theory after 2015's film Minions revealed that they served Napoleon in the 19th century, leading, quote, many to wonder where they were during World War II. Many.

Many people are wondering. So were they on the other side of the French Revolution? It's a little bit unclear, but it does say the first Minions movie had them, quote, hibernating in a cave from 1812 to 1968, convenient. Actually, you know what? I don't think I actually know. I saw Napoleon and I can't remember. What did he do during the French Revolution?

Wait. You're saying you saw Ridley Scott's Napoleon, but you don't remember the Minion's role in the film? No, I don't remember Napoleon's role in the revolution. I want to tell you, for the record, that movie would have done double the B.O. If in the Ridley Scott Directors' Cut, hold on, shut the whole podcast down. I haven't seen the director's cut. For all I know, minions are all over it. Are they in the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven? Yes. Who would they work for in the Wayland-Utani universe?

Paul Reiser. A billion percent. Paul Riser is essentially a minion in aliens. This is such... Do you know how much money we're making for someone else? else right now? If you redid the entire Ridley Scott filmography, including

fucking matchstick men with minions in it? Okay, you just, all right, I'm just letting you cook. It's too rich a text, but it would be exciting. I just wanted to give you some space here because you're cooking. You're racist, you're doing alternative

history, minions are showing up in Blade Runner. What do you think of Taylor Swift wedding? Rucker Hauer or the rain falling on him and then the minions slowly ease him into the soil It's beautiful Okay, sorry, what? What did you think of Taylor's so sweating?

Wow. You are sweating. I'm worked up about this. I think that if, also it's the new lighting that we're not allowed to talk about. If we survive this period of history, the World Cup. I mean, I might not survive that.

I do think that this abomination in Manhattan will be looked back as a nadir. I do. Like a real bread and circuses moment. I find the whole thing really awful. Really, really tacky, really awful. I know that doesn't jive with the general reception. You know, I was where you were at at various points.

I know, but then what you did was you focused grouped it. You went out into America. You know what I did when is when I saw the guest list, I was like, this isn't grotesque. This is just weird. I mean, it is grotesque in a lot of ways. But like, I was like, this is just. strange. Because when you saw George Stephanopoulos and Kevin Burkart...

Why is Dean Blandino at her wedding? You know, but even Travis Kelsey, is Travis Kelsey friends with the Fox refereeing expert? There's a version of this that is like, it's actually when you are this rich and this famous, friendship is a meaningless umbrella term. And that's what you, I think the end result of that is like, we were so happy to be married by our... Christiane Ronaldo has just got like a single tear going down his face while he listens to us before Portugal, Spain. I hope he listens to us. That's what you get when you have an invitation or whatever it was that said like, I know,

the post script that was like, we were married by our good friend Adam Sandler. Yeah. I challenge you to define the word friend in that sentence. I imagine that you both enjoy the filmography of Adam Sandler. And I'm sure both of you at some point were introduced to Adam Sandler at a party and you were like, holy shit, you're Adam Sandler. And he was like, Zubidoo or whatever. I try to imagine what my Adam Sandler would be.

Do it. Do it. We were married by my good friend. John Perthal. This is right. And he's just like, okay. God damn! I hear no true love was here.

Right. We all have our version of like Adam Sandler like the, oh shit, wouldn't that be funny? Mine was the late great Carmine Infantino. He could have talked about when he brokered the deal to have Spider-Man Superman crossover once in 1982. Do you know what I mean? I find that, I mean, Madison Square Garden, all due respect to the mayor of New York, and Brunson, but, like, that's not a particularly, like, intimate or romantic venue. No.

I mean, there is obvious, like, technical reasons why they did it. It's because they probably because they filmed it and they're going to sell it, which is also strange. Which also strange is a politic word. Yeah. And I know that there was, like, you know, everything about it was secure. And that was the one way that they wouldn't have helicopters taking pictures and they had the security levels outside and that you could basically get a filming permit that would

then shut down Midtown on July. third, which I'm sure was annoying. But, you know, under Big Zo, everything just seems to just keep rolling. Everything does work. You know? It's true. Yeah, I think that was my big. I looked at the list of the people who had been confirmed to have attended.

And I was just like, this is just so random. Like, there are just so many people where I'm like, this guy from NCIS. It's a party for famous people. Congratulations. Have a nice weekend. Okay, let's talk about House the Dragon, I guess. Okay. on Talk the Thrones, which I adore doing with Mal and Joe,

and they did a great job explaining some of the kind of in-depth, more textual readings of this episode. I declared this the best episode of the series. Yeah. Do you agree with me? I thought, this is the ego. Fame praise, I guess, coming from you. Not at all.

The ego of the very siloed. I was like, Zag, this was a great episode of TV. Apparently, not a zag. Apparently, absolute conventional wisdom. I think for maybe there are people who are like, that was, there might be people who were like, that was boring. And there might be people who were like, but what about X, Y, and Z happening outside of the castle walls or whatever.

Right. I just thought this episode had what some of the other episodes lack, lack, which is subjectivity. Yes, well said. And I find that ironic because even though I have not read Fire and Blood, I think that's the text this is based on, that is famously, or not even, that is written from multiple perspectives, sometimes conflicting accounts that is a quasi-historical document about this time.

And the show is not really leaned into that. It's never leaned into this. was kind of perceived by this person in this way. Right. And this was really like the first, in my mind, the first time we ever got to watch the events of a episode take place solely from the perspective of a character who's going through something. An entire episode for sure. Yeah. I would take it a step further. I remember from over a decade ago now, we were doing after the Thrones and with Jason and Mal and especially in their role as big fans of the, obviously of the franchise, but particularly of the books,

that one of the things that made the book so indelible and attracted such an enormous audience even before HBO got interested was the very, very specific way in which they were written, which was in quite long, subjective POV chapters. So that during a Dance of Dragons or whichever book it was, is that a book? That's what we're doing now. I think How's the Dragon is the Dance of Dragons. We, oh yeah, it was like a song of ice and fire. That's the series.

Okay, it doesn't matter. I'm already discrediting myself. My point is the books that I haven't read are broken up and there's like a lot of Caitlin Stark perspective. Yeah, there's a Tyrion chapter. And that brings you, you know, it brings you the subjectivity that I think is really, really appealing when you are reading a book, but also can be really, really precious when you're watching a TV show.

Yeah. So my guess is that this is a meaningful episode, not just for the, House of the Dragon Superfan, but for the Westeros literati as well, because this is, I don't know if it's close, but at least is tacking towards what drew them in in the first place. And I found it really, really compelling. And I also found it really reassuring isn't the word. But like, and I think I actually, I'm going to say something. I'd like to punt it to the end of our conversation just because it really speaks to the challenge of adaptation at all from medium to across mediums um watching this episode which had like not just um warmth and subjectivity and interesting and unique perspective um

it also had flickers of wit it had more thematic elements to it political elements that i found really really compelling it's what like the sound design was incredible with like the the ticking and the rat scratching and i felt like what you could perceive in this hour of television was everyone in every department taking their shackles off and being like, no, no, we know how to do this

in a more traditional or enveloping way, but we are making a show that has a God's eye fixed perspective and we are doing other things. And to see them sort of... Yeah, the gods eye has to be very far away because you've got to shoot the dragons. And the dragon seems to be... I think Game of Thrones was like

the dragons are like the kind of the character at the end of the, you know, like down the line for, and the stick was sort of the brutal truths about families and politics. This show front-loaded dragons, obviously, and, like, made the bet that it could take advances in VFX and depict the dragon warfare in a way that hadn't, they hadn't even been able to do in Thrones. I don't know if I agree that they've succeeded necessarily.

But what really struck me about this, and I don't think I articulated this quite well. enough on the episode that aired last night was I kept saying tempo and it is a fast episode. People speak with a quicker tempo. But what I admired so much about what Claire Kilner, the

director and Sarah Hess, the writer, did with this one, is in any other episode of House of the Dragon, a lot of these scenes would be conducted by two people standing in a static position in a room. And the blocking was pretty

vanilla and the acting was kind of almost like coming back to the direction of single single master like over the shoulder like conversation stuff and far be it for me to ask for like West Wing set in Westrose but almost every scene in this episode was either a walk and talk or someone moving around a room in a way that felt unconventional for the show yeah and even something like Allison coming to visit Reneira and Reneira's like how did you make all these decisions when you were kind of

operating as the real head of the head of the state I thought that Allison wandering around the room and being like this is so weird being here with you like we were teenage we were best friends now we're kind of enemies but I'm also

counseling you like this is really strange and Rineer being kind of doubled over with menstrual pain and like everything that's happening inside of her head and the paranoia that she's got, even the staging of something like that where it's just two people who remain relatively static. There were little kind of flourishes

that really made those scenes come alive. Think about, I think that's very well said and think about how, think about the effect that the dragons had on people in Game of Thrones, like people on the show. Yeah. Like, because they hadn't seen them

or they thought they were mythological or enough time had passed. Just for like they're never going to come back. And so the what the fuck wasn't overlooked before they started torching everybody. What was cool about this episode in the absence of dragons and just generally was that Reneira physically was the what the fuck

because she is someone who was an idea, she was a cause, she was a shadow, a danger, a threat. She's supposed to be a prophecy. And now she's just a lady walking her. around a house and everyone's like, what do you? What? You know, and she's making decisions and it was like a workplace comedy. The scene with Alison, where Allison is like, well, you killed my father. Yeah. Was not, not funny. Do you know what I mean? And I think that was, and it was self-aware enough

for that. I, the thing that I, it's something that I noted last week and then I was happy to see played out differently this week. Last week, because of the necessities of plot and moving things forward, the two most powerful people in the realm, Reneira and Damon, hop off their all-powerful nuclear bombs and then just walk through the castle. And they are thus at risk and, you know, then the stakes shift accordingly. The same thing was happening in this episode, but for much smaller stakes effects, which made it a little bit more, I don't want to say relevant. It just made it more palpable.

It made it more engaging to me. That her being there and making these decisions and all the decisions in front of her being bad was much more interesting in the sense of like she is supposed to be up on high and now here she is brought low and heavy as the head. Yeah. And that there's this like sort of spectrum of ideology that runs through the sort of cohort of people that have brought her to power or helped her get to power. And you've got people like Masaria who are like, well, I kind of believed in you because

I thought that you were going to be the person to change the way things ran for common people. And then Damon's like, I believe in you because you're the person who's going to bring the Targaryen line back to its customary place as basically demigods and paying no mind to law or whatever. You know, and we should just go around burning up the rest of the world until we get to almost fantastical places more fantastical than where we were now. And the way in which that information is conveyed was so much more witty, artful, but also like forget the idea that these two people are like, there are men with wings, like a land beyond the sea kind of stuff.

It was just very fascinating to see these two who are like, well, on one level, you're the only one who understands me. But on another level, you're pulling me right into the direction that Targaryens of the past and Targaryans of the future get pulled into where they think they're gods. and that way spells doom.

So I just thought all of that stuff was so well dramatized in this episode. I want to talk about the place, the city on the edge of the world where men have wings. First of all, book me a ticket. Sounds awesome. And are they eligible to play for the USMNT?

They have wings. They're very good playing. We don't have a lot of wingers. We don't have a lot of wingers. Oh, that's good. Maybe we misheard. Maybe it's where men are natural wings. Three and D.

stretch wings they could play for the Sixers too. This was something that I said probably too many times when we covered Game of Thrones. But I just felt that it was always important to not just to serve what I wanted to see in the show, but to balance the scales of what the stakes were and what people were fighting for or fighting against.

And that was to let us know what else they could be doing. Make us understand the choice to continue to march towards King's Landing. When you could, in the case of the original Game of Thrones series, show are you going east? Show what life is like in these other places. Is it better? Is it worse? Why do they keep coming back?

Give us a sense of Dorn as being like, it's pretty nice. Why don't you just stay here? Yeah. So that when Damon says it in, when Damon talks just what you were saying, when he is grandiose in this episode, it is night and day from when he was grandiose in the previous episode. In the previous episode, he's reciting a prophecy. that sounds as romantic as a to-do list. In this episode, he's saying, here are all these things that are possible for us now.

So what will we do? When you can do anything, what will you do? That absolute dogged march towards the nightmare throne is tough when you don't understand the psychology of why characters are doing it other than the fact that they have always done that or they have been told they are meant to do that.

Yeah, and she's blinded by, a sense of destiny that I think is undermining her ability to maintain alliances, which is really well depicted in the scene with Coralus, which they like finally brings to Steve Toussaint off the bench and let him like do a cool scene where he expresses an emotion that he didn't even express when like his wife gets killed, you know what I mean? Like he gets to say everything that's been like happening inside of his person for like the last two or three years where he's just like,

You've got to be fucking kidding me. I am asking you for one thing. Yes. I have essentially like backstopped you this entire time against better judgment. Yes. And I am saying like, you know, we both know how things happen in bedrooms here. Just call these guys Valourin. That's all I'm asking.

And she doesn't because she doesn't want to bring in questions about like, oh, so now even bastards get special dispensation. even though that's exactly what her sons have gotten. Also, look how nice it is when plot lines intersect. Yeah. Like what he has been doing the last three episodes is the precursor to this conversation. So it carries episode to episode. And I do not mean this as faint praise. It's kind of an echo of what I said after the premiere,

which is the people making the show are very good at their jobs. I think that the overall mission statement may be. slightly off at this point. But the fact that they were able to execute a battle that big and then do the very basic stuff like overlap plot threads in ways that create satisfying, naughty circumstances. I don't want to discredit that. That is good work and it pays off when you can just take a breath in an episode like this. I would love nothing more.

I have not seen the next episode. I would love nothing more than if the next episode continued with this pace of momentum and especially this sense of subjectivity. I don't know if this show has enough runway to start hopping around and really diving into the interior life of Ormond High Tower. I know he is in the scenes from next week

rather heavily, and he certainly pulled a fast one on Reniro this week. Yeah, I want to talk about that. But you don't hire James Norton just to do like three scenes where he smells perfume and then walks away. So I'm excited for, the emergence of that conflict to

come to the fore maybe next week, but I have really come back around on this. I think, you know, I wouldn't necessarily say it gives me anything close to the feeling I got watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms or especially Peak Game of Thrones. But it's a,

it's becoming more of a pleasure to watch, I think. What hopes do you have for it going forward? I mean, I think it is an old, school TV move back when TV shows had to make 22 episodes a year or. Oh, let's do one about this. And let's do one from her perspective. Let's see what else we can do. Yeah. Let's see, let's take this thing out on backroads or see it on the auto bond or see if it floats, you know, like let's just see what it is that we have here. It is a luxury in this age of condensed seasons and years between them and expensive post, you know, post work that's required. So I feel seen, I feel heard.

I really enjoyed watching the episode. I think that the nuance that they were given, that these characters were given for this one hour will pay some dividends going forward if it goes back into the churn of plot. But I also think the show is what it is. So I feel happy that we got here. I guess it just, I thought that this episode,

if you're not going to have, part of the reason why season two kind of fell flat was because everybody was like, okay, when's the battle coming? All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand if it's going to be quiet loud, quiet loud, we have to kind of build up to this battle,

but the way in which it's quiet is so snail-paced and so kind of morose and sort of strange and Damon with the tree and all this stuff that's happening. And you're just like, okay, okay, okay. And then they don't do the battle. And now the beginning of this season was almost too much battle. I was almost like, that's great. Cool, but like it's been two years since this show ended and we pretty much jump in and start a massive naval battle.

Yeah. With a character, with many characters whose motivations I have somewhat forgotten. Yeah. And now obviously you can do your homework and find out. But I think that if they are going to have episodes where they don't have massive army on army dragon on dragon conflict, this is a really good blueprint. But I don't mean, obviously the show is done. So I don't know. No, but we're, we are still, God bless us, you know, we still are covering television on this podcast week to week in an old-fashioned model.

And the truth is, the majority of people who ever watch House of the Dragon will watch it when it's done streaming on, you know, the patio of David Ellison's mega yacht or whatever the case may be. And it may be that much like when, you know, when you said things like, oh, what's my reading order for Jonathan Hickman's Avengers, it'll be like, what's the best way to watch House of the Dragon? And it may well be to watch it in these chunks. And one chunk will be treating last season, season two, as ending two episodes into season three. And then maybe, you know, it'll advise you to take a walk around the block, take a break, and then pretend it's starting over here, and that will be a different experience.

And that's okay. It just is clearly imbalance in terms of the story. A couple things, in terms of how it was delivered to us. A couple things, a couple of bullet points for this episode, if I could. One, I found it amusing that Dan Fogler is now on the show. Yes, that was funny. I was like, what? I mean, it was just funny because he's a fine and amusing and good actor.

And he was doing a passable, he was doing a fine English accent. It was totally fine. No, he was good. It was just like a what? It was kind of a lean-in moment. And part of me was like, did we actually run out of British character actors? Because Night of the Seven Kingdom. They're all in Star City.

And Star City took them all. And they were like, oh, my God. God, we've called the Royal Shakespeare Company. We've called Levine. Is that where we're headed? And I'm kind of here for it. I thought that was amusing. Do you think that King's Landing is right for a DSA candidate in the next election?

I think that's what Missoria wants. I think that's what she wants too. But she is still, you know, she's just like allying herself with the Eric Adams administration being like, no, no, we can do some work here. And I can change from within. I did really like, again, speaking of things, I never thought I would say. in a Game of Thrones show. I never thought I would see that cinematic staple

giving out turkeys in the hood on Thanksgiving. Yeah. I really enjoyed that scene as well. I also, across 15 years of this show now, one of my favorite things of this world,

one of my favorite things remains every so often when someone has a normal name and then you get a line like an ADR line of, you still have to kill Darren, which just sounds absolutely banal. The hiding of church

child thing was pretty good. Oh, because they hid that kid? They hid that kid. Because Ormond put that kid in the in the Pierre coffin somewhere. Well, he's not dead, but he just hit him somewhere. The real one. Yeah.

Yeah, but also, it's not that hard when only nine people have blonde hair. You just have to get some bleach. Yes, but it's like, he's also playing on the fact that Allison hasn't seen this kid in years. So it's not, like, he's hoping that people don't realize, like,

what he's done until it's too late. It's also, he's really showing deep ball knowledge because he also knows that people haven't watched or thought about the show in two years and I don't even remember how many kids she has. So with a blonde kid I was like, well, I guess there's another one and that's him. He's just the shy type. He's just the shy type. He's actually like a little bit of a runner for fans out there who are like what I think he plays a different role in the text. I don't think his actions are different, but I think he's a little bit more present or at least people have a better understanding of what's going on with him.

And I think that they were like, we haven't cast him yet, you know? So it was sort of strange. And there's a couple of characters that it doesn't seem like they're going to introduce because they've sort of maneuvered things so that they can do away with certain characters, but we'll see. Like Bob?

Kenny? Yeah. Steve? Yeah, Christopher Sanchez. I also did want to say, like in the hopes that we can unite one of the more popular shows or worlds we cover on the show with one of the more divisive,

I did enjoy Top Chef's King's Landing. Which one's divisive? Well, I feel like sometimes people are like, I rock with these guys when they talk about obscure-ass spy shows on Britbox, but the fact that they devote 10 weeks every year to cover season 23 of Top Chef might. Are you about it as passionately as anything in the world? It's the only thing I care about. That's the only thing keeping me on, to be honest.

On Earth. The Kings, truly, the King's Landing episode of Top Chef, where all the nobleman were there for the tasting. Yeah. But they did this, they fucking did the fine dining, like they all placed it at the same time. And everyone kind of recoiled,

like most people do at fine dining restaurants these days. Tom would have been like, did you mean to caramelize the rat? Yeah, well, Tom would have been okay with the rat, but there was a little okra on the plate and he didn't like it. Right. No, you just didn't eat another starch. I thought that.

Too many starches on the rat. It solved two problems at once. Rats and the rich. and needing a protein for the evening. Yeah. I did need a protein. I enjoyed it. I like the line I'm awash with dilemmas and uncertainties. That's just being alive in America.

Who remarks to us? Let's talk a little bit about Star City, which we usually say for the very end because I think we assume it's a not an acquired taste, but a niche offering. And it remains in and around like the bottom of the top 10 of Apple. Which we don't know what that means. know what that means. I would like it to be in the top five or the top three because I wanted to

be renewed because I want to keep watching this show. This was an interesting episode because it was a true testament to just my deep pleasure that I get from watching it. This had a year time jump to start. I don't think, I think it was, it was into the next year. It was referred to as last summer. I think the implication based on the end of the episode was that it's been about nine months. I believe you and it's worth noting that I think it's becoming a little bit harder to avoid if you're reading about this show

the for all mankind character echoes which I didn't know as extensive but I think it's pretty cool and interesting this was a very melancholy episode of television you know like a real like this is this is what a sort of authoritarian regime leaves behind

in its wake for the people who try to participate in different parts of government and different parts of society and like get broken because they they try to fly a little too close to the despot sun um and i and i in that it was great i thought that the it essentially followed the same rhythm or rising action as the previous episode so instead of and this is spoilers for the season of star city and for this episode but Instead of the loss of the Vanera crew, we've got the possible rescue of them or the possible signs of life.

I still thought it was gorgeous, the Rachman Enough playing as they break down these algorithms and start, you know, doing secret channels to Anastasia up in the space station. But also it's like there was a not insignificant montage of beautiful classical piano music while a man wrote algebra with a pencil. Yes.

Thank you, Apple. Like, truly. Like, I cannot believe they got that through. I don't know how they pitched it. I don't know what it appeared like in the script. But that's not even the first thing to go. That's the thing where you're like in the room, you're like, it would be beautiful,

but we will never have beautiful things in this life. And it was great. Again, I feel like I'm a broken record, but I have said that there's been moments on this show that really play the espionage greatest hits. I thought arena going to, going to Ruscova's apartment, that brief look into her life

of like kind of wearing this sad track suit and having something in the oven and then her revealing to Roscova that like she's been tasked with bugging her and she's like, you should bug me. And then we're also going to like run a double on Petroski who's taken over Star City. It was awesome, you know, even if you've seen it before.

And it was choosing who you work for and why and who's running who. and how no one ever, everything is an op. I will say just as a sidebar, last week you were wondering if Roscova was veering a little too English when she yelled sorted out. I think discovering her in her flat

dressed like she was in the verve in 1997 was a real tell as to where her allegiance is life. Just listen to urban hymns. You caught me at a moment. You caught me at a very bucket hat time of my life. Finding out that the drugs don't work. Truly, it was beautiful. Oh, please continue your litany of.

talk more. I just, my, my headline from this episode is Joseph Davies. He plays Surdei and he obviously gets like a kind of cool moment at the end of the episode, but his reaction. Yes. Thank you for the entire process of trying to apply for a professorship somewhere like at a college somewhere, which would obviously be a step down financially for him, but would be a break or an escape from Star City where he has essentially been demoted to the sub-sub-basement and they keep moving his stapler, you know, and then finding out not only that his apartment has been burgled or roused, but that the guy who was enticing him essentially to make this application was probably spying on him or working against him.

And Davies's reaction to finding his apartment in this state, because the apartment is really the only, like his cooking and his music and his books. It's his private world. Is the only thing that he has got that is like for pleasure in this life. I thought it was like really legitimately like heartbreaking and a beautiful piece of acting. And he's he's probably the fifth or sixth build actor on this. And that character actually exists in the for all mankind universe. So I think for some viewers, they're like, this is extraordinary to get to see this guy as a young person.

And apparently Davies's performance echoes the older actors performance as Sergei as he gets older, but I thought it was lovely. And in an episode where a lot of the main faces, Tanya, the cosmonauts, the chief designer are largely off screen. Yes. He really stepped in. I love that you shouted him out, highlighted him. I agree.

His performance is brilliant and it's understated. And it does what the best acting can do. Because we, who have likely, hopefully never had our inner sanctum, our private life. like tossed like that, he, you could imagine. This guy's got a lot of Zinn. Oh, no, found some more. How old are these laws of this? Texas Chainslaw Massacre 2 on 4K.

He wasn't fronting about physical media. He's really about this life as they quietly let themselves out. I think that our gut supposition about how we would feel would be one of anger or sadness or about the mess or whatever our natural pathways of emotion are, what he communicated in that moment was such deep indignity. Yeah, he puts his hand over his mouth to like stop him from stop himself from actually expressing an emotion. And the camera captures the broken vinyl records and it is a violation and it is just one indignity stacked on top of another. It's like I only have this. And you've put me in prison already and you've stripped me of my work and of my purpose and

you've stopped listening to me and you've removed, isolated me from my colleagues, and now you've taken this was beautiful. And the performance was so gripping that I did, I hadn't, like, Googled him before and realized, like Adam Negaitus, he was briefly in Chernobyl. But where we had seen him before was Andor, where he's one of the prisoners on Narcina. And I'm not saying that, like, although I feel like basically this podcast is constantly in service of this idea that Tony Gilroy is uniquely able to draw out. nuanced performances from British stage actors.

But this performance and the role the character plays on this show is cut from the same cloth as to what Tony did with Andor, where it's like the private lives of public-facing genre storytelling is, it's an incredible feat. Do you think Andy Burnham should just cut the dole and just say we've been able to outsource funding for the arts to Tony Gilroy, who will continue to put British stage actors in giant sci-fi epics. I would bring it up, but I think Andy Purnum's too busy

doing would-be viral Instagram things where he's like, they're like, Stone Roses or Urban Hymns. He was asked that, Stone Roses. I think he's calling Carmine Infantino about Kwanza's red card. And about Martian Manhunter's role in the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yeah, I thought that was incredible. I thought it was incredibly beautiful. And I would say, to your original take on the episode, I think this may have been my favorite, episode of the series to date. I thought it was, it's not just that I thought

the tone was so elegiac and interesting. It's of a piece of the conversation we were just having about House of the Dragon, which is like when you have a show that has a mandate in the sense that like it was pitched and sold as a companion piece, as a spinoff as a way to backfill or spackle history. And also for a lot of people,

like you know how this story kind of ends because we've already into the, I don't know, the 20th century, 21st century on the other show. Yeah. So I think that when you accept a job or you're even the one who pitches it, like the larger assignments is manifest. And servicing that takes up reasonably so quite a lot of your creative oxygen and your practical budget. So finding the little pockets and the little space to make something that is special and stands on its own is even more precious and even more rare. And last week when I was talking about the show, I was saying I did feel a little bit of for all mankind mission creep, not to diss that show,

which I have regrets that I've not kept up on. But my feeling that kind of kept me out of it was that there was this inevitable drumbeat of history, history, history, and it was telling us about it as it was breathlessly trying to catch up to what it wanted to say. And last week, there was, I had that sense of like, well, now we're onto this next mission. Now we got to do this. The fact that they took a beat that for a show that was notable for, in episodes five and six,

picking up the action seconds after the previous episode ended, like Arena in Tanya's apartment, which was surprising to me that they did that, but it felt reasonable and not just reasonable, it felt exciting, that after this incredible cliffhanger of a crescendo of the previous episode that we begin months later,

it's just a, it is a really masterful use of... Oh, and they also just sewed it up by having Raskova's report, kind of basically yada yada, what happened, It's a masterful use of off-speed pitches, let's say. There you go, dog.

You know, of like, oh, now, oh, something has changed. And again, like, I, there was not a single moment in watching this episode that I thought the Venus mission was lost because these are three, no, with Chadia joining it, I mean, she was not initially in the cast, but the other two are two of the leads of the show. And I'm not saying the show is so sentimental that it can't kill main characters, especially as it churns towards the 21st century, but that story wasn't done. You don't have, what's his name? Sasha.

You don't, not just Sasha, the other guy. Negatus? No, wait. Valleah? Sasha. Sasha's honest values has been value. You don't have them fall in love accidentally and then leave Earth without some resolution. Yes.

So I knew they were coming back. The question is, how do we get there? And I just think it's remarkable when you have creators who are like, let's see, let's solve this problem and see it as an opportunity. I thought it was totally pleasurable to watch. You're psyched to get a little George Bush cameo? I am always wondering what the Bush family is up to in an alternate history where they can sort of shake free of right and left,

you know, and just be good sense versus no sense, you know? Apparently it's an underrated presidency, according to historians. I wonder if in for all mankind, George W. just stays as the ranger's owner. And then becomes a painter? Yeah. I mean, be great. Hopefully we're going to have Matt and Ben who created the show on, hopefully this week.

And I unfortunately won't be here for that episode because I'm going to be in Toronto, but Andy is going to hopefully be talking to those guys this week. Yeah. Is this time for some other housekeeping? Sure. Well, I think that if we're able to line this up, then... This is exactly where Kaya likes to keep all of our important show announcements at minute 52. I totally agree.

You guys clip this, right? This is going to be good, that we will hold the episode till Friday when the season finale comes up. Yes. But also, I had an idea. Let me know how you feel about this, because you're going to be traveling. So really, I could just do it. You could do whatever you want. But I don't feel comfortable with that much freedom.

Do you want me to drop questions from space and hope that they land? I hope they land in the right place. But all the other podcasts find the questions and then they get mad. I wondered if it would be useful to do a prompt. I don't know if anybody cares about this stuff. But if there's any, like, super specific, like, industry type questions of, like, working in the minds questions for me? Those guys are for that?

No, or just, like, we could do an all... Ask Andy anything? Kind of. Is that I... Within reason. Do you do whatever you want to do, man? But you know what I mean? Because, because, I don't know, maybe that's interesting to people.

Yeah. There's some actually, like, there are a fair amount of question for Andy's in our inbox. Okay. Well, I'm happy to tackle the... Where's your favorite piece of steamed fish? you've ever had, you know? Well, that's a great question. Cafe Deco is amazing.

Save it for Thursday. Laundry, though, actually often has, it's kind of deep in Arsenal country now, which is feeling a little iffy for me. Do you want to announce your Tottenham Hotspur lifelong fan? I don't need to announce something that's been part of me from the very beginning.

I think an Ask Andy anything pod would be. Will you slip in some questions that have been lingering? No. Just things you wanted to know? I think I know the whole story. You're good? Do you want to talk about the agency?

all, I think, I wonder whether or not, like, if you want, I know you're up through three, right? Yeah. I am through five. We both think this season is extraordinary. We have had somewhat similar conversations as we've chipped away at this second season, and they've basically been like, it's funny to watch this very, very, very thrilling and expertly made and expensive, like cover song of a song we adore. And I think that that has disoriented us, but I will say that I am fully loving this season.

I would like to ask you a question. Is any of the methodical way that we are going about this tied not only to the fact that somewhat we know the story in the broad strokes because we watch the Bureau, but also that Paramount has not announced its season three renewal. It's not just that Paramount hasn't announced a renewal. It's that they dropped the entire season over a weekend, which is not what they did with season one.

And correct me if I'm wrong, I have not seen any press. I don't mean like I haven't seen like wrap around ads on buses. Have people involved in the show done any press? I do not have a grand theory of this, but I will say that I have seen on social media various places

a kind of wave of Michael Fastbender on the hardest scene from Steve Jobs. And I was like, why the fuck is that a blog post? And I'm like, oh, because they're asking. Oh, he did do an interview about it? Well, no, they're do, they did junkets. But I think, So much of Junkett stuff now is a guy going in and he's got Catherine Waterston and Michael

Fastbender. He's like, I have to ask them about these five movies that they did. Like I can ask a couple of agency questions, but then it's like when you were playing David and Prometheus, did you think that you were both? And that stuff all then gets aggregated. Yeah. But then the editors of these sites or these algorithms can just be like, nobody's watching the agency. We can just publish all this Prometheus and Steve Jobs stuff. Now, I don't, that's not like a conspiracy or anything against the show, but I do think it's something interesting about it used to be kind of like you would go to these things and you would be like, I have 10 minutes and I can be like, what did you, why did you, well, drew you to this role and all that stuff.

And now it's like, I have 10 minutes, hold a dog, try a hot wing, and tell me about these three movies that have nothing to do with the agency. So I don't know if it's working for them or not, but like I do find that I have anecdotally heard from people out there who are like, Yeah, like I don't like starting shows that aren't going to finish. Oh, for sure. And, you know, this is a dense, complex adult thriller that I think is hitting its stride and clearly it was a massive investment to get gear and Wright and Waterston and all these people to do it.

To say nothing of the British actors who were all sometimes playing in Americans who were... Also, they shot the show in London, Kenya, and Morocco. Yeah. Like, that's like 2019 money. It's wild. And we have the merger coming and we have no definitive news yet. And it's been five weeks. It's been a minute.

A couple weeks since this came out. Do you feel like I am slightly to blame? Because when we had the entire cast of the agency available to us and I only asked Catherine Waterson 10 minutes of questions about her role in the HBO avant-garde theater show The Third Day? I think that might have contributed to some, some soft numbers. I don't regret it.

Fascinating show. I think that's really well observed. I think I think this is an interesting conversation in relationship to Star City too, which also has not been officially renewed to my knowledge. I know that Matt and Ben created the show, talked about

like we're not going to do decade jumping. We're going to keep it in the 70s. And tell the story of Star City specifically and not get into the March. Like what's it like for a Russian, like on the other side of a scene that you've already seen in for all mankind? But I do think that there, like, it would be a mistake to just say, like, we have the roadmap for a five or six season show. Presumably Michael Fassbender committed to that going into this. Yeah.

I mean, I think, well, a couple things. I think it would just because Labrero, well, more than a few things, Liburo is one of the great television shows of all time. Everyone should check it out. The way that each season

builds the world out while also diving deeper into the possibilities already presented by the characters we thought we knew is extraordinary and just worth watching whether you love TV,

want to make it, anything. So the thought of assembling this kind of Avengers and then not getting to do that level of work, knowing what could happen for Jeffrey Wright's character, for... John McGarro's character. Like, that is a real shame because it's the best of new TV in the sense of its ambition

and old TV in the sense of, God, I love that guy. I didn't even notice him for two years. That's a real shame. I'll say that my interesting experience with this season is that I am finding it incredible... I mean, I love the story because I love the story. I love watching Richard Gear being a TV show. He's just cooking. I'm finding it incredibly engaging,

both because the story is engaging and because of the pace of the storytelling. I am finding it a little... You're also passionate about ethical diamond mining. Thank you. Well, and accurate South African accent work, which, frankly, has been absent from our screens for some time. Since...

Perhaps before blood diamond. You know, who knows? Certainly before blood diamond. And so congrats to Michael Fastbender for bringing that back. I have found it a little hamfisted at times this season. Okay. Both in the sense of like the John McGarro character, Owen, like being bad at doing spy stuff and that's sort of textual, like he's not good at it. Yeah.

But then also the people around him being like, I just trust you for some reason, Steve, let's go to the Central African Republic. That's like, we got to get the show on the road, but also that was weaker to me. than some of the other things that are going on. And weaker to you than the Bureau version of it. For sure. I think the other thing that frustrates me slightly, I do enjoy the Butterworth's writing an American cast, talking about American cultural perspectives.

Oh, like, what's up, Snowflake? Yeah, it's like, you libtard snowflake. I'm like, why don't you listen to me talk about the English national team for 10 minutes then we could see how we're square? There are moments that I just feel like are missed opportunities, but the sort of missed opportunities that could become gold over the course of a longer run. like Jeffrey Wright is so

he's such a brilliant actor and he's funny this show is not written so much for him to be funny so that when he gets like a small crumb like the scene when Fastbender asks him to give him control of Gremlin the agent they're running in

Iran and he goes let me think about it I thought about it that's funny and like I wish we could have a little bit more of that class laugh line that's okay but him he makes it funny He does. And the show is written in a way.

And I love the whole like the Catherine Waterston pulling the guy into the one. That was awesome. Blind spot and him then going and getting the device. Because he bugged the blind spot. Because he's like, of course, it's a blind spot. Yeah. I love that. I just, I wish there was more room for that.

But I sometimes feel like that that's the kind of like spontaneity that comes from more fluid productions as opposed to something that is so like, we have this much time. We are doing it on this budget. We have this blueprint and we have these very busy screenwriting brothers and we are going to execute. Yeah. Sometimes I appreciate that efficiency

in terms of delivering on the plot. Tom Hardy's trying to kill one of them. It's possible. We don't know what's going on off screen. Anyway, all this is to say, we will circle back. We will cover the rest of the season. So we have Thursday show will be,

or Friday's show release, will probably be Star City finale related and some Ask Andy Anything stuff. I then think you're out the following Monday. I am. We have a lot of travel this summer. We do.

And, I'll do some exciting work that day. You should do a follow-up. But maybe next Thursday. Are you back next Thursday? We can finish the agency. Do you think we should, would you want to spend some of Monday

fact-checking my answers to the questions about me and just being like, that was a lie? No, I think you're like a dazzling broadcaster, and I'm sure you'll really do a great job with whatever you decide to do on Friday. And wherever you decide to take this show going forward. Thank you. Like, Sikaya, Kai and Sarah.

We are going to wrap up there. We have explained the short-term future of this show. That sounds so dark. About two-thirds of the way into the podcast. So just go and scroll on back if you want. And we'll talk to you later this week with some more Star City stuff and some more exciting television talk. Are you bullish on the long-term future of this podcast? Sure.

Sure. Wow. Okay. Great. Bye, guys. Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you.

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