The Watch - The Best Shows of the Year (So Far)

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the trailers for Tony Gilroy’s ‘Behemoth!’ (10:51) and Ryan Murphy’s adaptation of Bret Easton Ellis’s novel ‘The Shards’ (16:26). Then they reveal their favorite shows of the year so far, including everything from ‘Industry’ and ‘The Pitt’ to ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and ‘Beef,' and they reflect on the year in television up until this point (20:09). Later, The Watch: After Dark (0:00). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, tearfully singing Talk Tonight instead of Wonderwall. It's Andy Greenwald.

It's terrible. It's not coming home. It turns out it is not coming home. Thank you for having me on the Bill Simmons podcast, Chris. I appreciate it. Yeah. It's nice to be here. I guess I should say.

I got to host the Bill Simmons podcast yesterday. I had Ian Wright and Anthony Dubundo and Sean Fennessee on. We talked about the England-Argentina match. We talked about the Odyssey. Dubundo and Ian Wright had a lot of thoughts on the Odyssey. Did they? And Sean Fennacy thought Thomas Ducal was a coward. It's a great zag.

First of all, congratulations. Thanks, man. To no small achievement. It's a great podcast. It is. Would you like a constructive note? Sure. I just think.

Did you listen? I started it. Oh, yeah? Yeah. No, it's good. It's, listen, it's good. It's good. My note, though, is the next time that he gives you the keys to his choice ride,

I think you've got to be a little bit more like the parking garage attendance and Ferris Bueller's Dayoff. So you think I played it too safe. I think you've got to open it up. You know what I mean? When you say that, do you mean I needed to open it up, like me personally and just start going like, Bing, Bong, it's Wayne Jenkins. Or do you think, like, is it morning zoo it up? Or do you think the guests were too conservative?

No, no, no. I just think, first of all, great question, great phrasing. Yeah. You would have done numbers if you had done CR Side Talk. I don't know. I just feel like I want, you did bring some of yourself to it, clearly, because you brought soccer and you brought Sean Fennacy. And the Odyssey.

Yeah, I like that. You like that stuff. Yeah. I'm just trying to think of like maybe some more personal, like a deep dive into Len Dighton's later works. So you wanted to be included is what you're saying. No, no, you wouldn't talk to me. Yeah.

You would talk to like Len Dighton's son, Ben Dighton or something. You know what I mean? Here's the thing you got to learn about being political in this world. This is yes, yes, yeah. You and me, we're the primary. But when you get to Bill, it's the general. And you got to pivot to the center. Oh, right.

Because I'm running to your left. That's totally right. When you get to the general. That's what I turn into Haley Stevens. Totally true. My heads will get that one. Totally right. Okay.

Well, I thought you did a great job. Thanks. No, thank you. That is exciting. And we have a lot to talk about. Did you actually listen? I can't tell. I started it,

but then I was sitting in my car and I was going to like crush more of it on like 4X. And then you saw me sitting in my car in the parking lot. And I was like, what's up, man? No, no, you did the thing you usually do, which is check if I'm weeping,

which was cool. I wasn't. Can you imagine every day you're like, it's going to be that kind of pod. I'm crying again. Andy, what a day on the podcast? podcast today because we'll do some watch After Dark about our weekend in Philly and our experience with the World Cup as it comes to a conclusion.

That's all coming at the end? Oh, man, I'm chomping at the bit. If you want to do it now, after dark can be in the morning. Tell the people, I think that's going to happen for most of America. For now, you're still the co-host here, so you can make the decisions too. Isn't After Dark going to be the norm for most of America once daylight savings time becomes permanent? Did you read about this?

I did read about this. I mean, I've been reading the news this whole month. No wonder you're so cheerful. Okay, finish the rundown. I'm in a good mood. I know. And I'll tell you why. Yeah.

Because today we're going to do the best TV of the year so far. Okay. We've reached this sort of like, you know, obviously it's quite late in July. It's an odd time to be doing the best TV of the first half of the year because it's more than half of the year is over. But now that we got all the Emmy shows kind of out of our system and under the wire to be considered for awards consideration. and we have hit a little bit of a dead zone where you know you've got How's the Dragon still running?

People may be catching up on things like the agency Cape Fear wrapping up and then kind of not a lot other than like Ted Lasso the Will Ferrell Show The Hawk I talked about this with Joanna but like they're taking July and August off out here in Hollywood and I wanted to just kind of put a marker on like

okay what do we think what's the best of what we've gotten so far and whether we think it's a good year. There may be some surprise entries in there of shows that we have not had a chance to really discuss that deeply. Oh, right, you want to fold that into this, because there's a show in particular I want to talk about, but it's on my list. We could do it. I know that you have a comprehensive notes app

that covers your entire life. Yes. If you would like to structure this show on the fly, we can't, you know? Bananas, ground turkey, olive oil. Clean glasses. And then some notes about the rise of Alamo on Euphoria Season 3.

But yeah, we can do World Cup in Philly right now. No, let's do, okay, so let's do World Cup at the end, because we do have a lot to talk about. Obviously, I am wearing a shirt to support La Furia Roja, Spainia, which has been my team from the beginning. Fucking elite, if you immediately changed, your entire vibe was like, it was like, the tiki-taga. It always has been.

I don't use large plates at home, ever. only piccino do you like a tin fish yeah sure who doesn't I'm not allowed to have tin fish in my house really what yeah my wife doesn't like to smell so you're so you go

outside like an alley cat I just don't eat tin fish at all I mean like I I don't really dabble yeah oh come through we'll crack a couple tins like when I'm in England and they're like tinies on the train I thought they meant like some beautiful Portuguese squid, you know?

Are you popular on trains in England? Popular. Well, breakfast is more hard-boiled egg season. You know what I mean? Okay, we'll do that at the end. But I did want to say that we had a lovely brief encounter, much like the film in Philadelphia this weekend, where we watched England's last win. Victory.

Yeah. And it was, it's great to see you. Yeah, England, Norway, we watched a bad brother. And it was awesome. What a vibe. Can I just, I feel like this is important for the listeners. to understand that like, so I flew across the country. I went straight from the airport to Bad Brother and to walk into this wonderful public

house crowded. And I spotted you at the end of the bar and you're chatting with Nick who's awesome as the owner. And now I know what it's like to be friends with Norm and walk into cheers. Well, Norm was a little bit antisocial. Okay. So you are well-vutrin Norm, like super popular chatting. I don't want to talk to anybody.

I just want giant mugs of beer so I can avoid going home to my wife. You're resisting what I'm trying to say here. I understand what you're trying. Which is that you are the king of these Fairmount streets, and it was very cool to be basking in your aura, frankly, just for a short time. It was a great place to watch the game,

and I appreciate you being there. And then I went out and saw my buddies from this band called the Shines Clinic, who were very active in the late 90s in Boston when I was living there, and I lived with some of them in Mission Hill and Boston in the late 90s. They got their band back together for the first time in, like, more than 25 years. And it was incredible to see them.

They played at the Yuki Hall. They played New York and Boston as well. And it was awesome to see him. Those are great guys. Do you think we should bring back our late 90s zine that we talked about making? I think that this is the zine. It literally is. So you went and you saw a great show, great friends.

I brought my older daughter to visit my aging parents. And the one thing that I was eager to tell you was I was sort of hopeful that there might be some new opportunities for cross-cultural dialogue because my daughter had been in New York with her other grandparents who took her to see ragtime, the musical that is back on Broadway. It's Dr. Roe season. So my father has strong opinions about musicals,

and Dr. O. So I mentioned that she had seen the musical, and my father went on a, I would say, quite repetitive rant about how only in this recent iteration of the show at Lincoln Center has the New York Times given it its due. The New York Times had it out for that show, a fine show. While he kind of just sort of really dug in on that point, I noticed on the bookshelf, like he does have obviously many books, but like... Every issue of the New York Times. Cat Cross Index for Frank Rich's wrong opinions. I went to the bookshelf and I pulled down what turned out to be a first edition of Yale Doctoro's

1975 novel Ragtime. That sponsored inspired this musical. And I was like, to my daughter, I was like, look, you know, look, triangles of literature or whatever. And the first thing that I realized was the problem, she took the book, she was interested. She turned to the back cover and 70s hard covers, as you remember, the author photo often is the entire back. So it's fucking Ed Doctoro,

Jim Henson-ass, Corteroy and Beard, full bald bait, just looking like, yeah, I wrote this shit. I'll do it again next year. So immediately she was like, I don't know about this. She flipped through it. And this is, by the way, on the way over, she was like, maybe I'll read the book. It's so interesting.

American history over this. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all happened. We're vibing. Let's fucking watch Ken Burns and Civil Order. Maybe one day you'll have a podcast. And so she, She sort of looked through and then like put it aside.

And I was like, huh, I guess she didn't want to really delve into the classic. So I opened it up. And like, you forget. You know, we're from a different era, different generation. And beginning of chapter two. And I'm slightly misquoting here. But I believe the beginning of chapter two is, mother and father were displeased that Houdini's visit had interrupted their coitus.

Like, that's really what literature was. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I mean, like, you get to like three-page descriptions of a fallace by John Updike. Oh, yeah. You find out some things about yourself as a reader. What's exciting with Updike is you're not sure whose fallacy it is until like the third paragraph. So a lot of guys playing basketball. Exactly. The steam room was quite large back then. So is he talking about others? Is it a mirror situation? So, you know, culture moves on. It's all right.

I have a couple of things about culture to ask you about before we get to our list. Number one, one of the central creatives at the foundation of this podcast, someone whose work we return to over and over again, Tony Gilroy, whose words, they function as like the intro to this podcast when you hear a stand up and walk. That's obviously from the Bourne Legacy, Edward Norton in the Crisis Suite. He's got a new movie coming out. It's his first theatrical feature since Clayton, right? It's the born legacy. Since the born legacy, right? Yeah.

Are we going to have to replace the opening of this podcast with Pedro Pascal being like, I've always loved the cello? Do you think that would give the same kind of? I think we would have even more deeper completion rates. I mean, look, this is the ringer's number one Yale Doctoro podcast already. I'm sure Brian Curtis is. like, well, that's actually true. He's coming for our crowd.

But I was wondering if you saw the Behemoth trailer. This is his film about a classical musician who plays in film in orchestras, but also primarily on film scores. And that cellist is played by Pedro Pascal, as Andy mentioned. Also starring the film, Ava Victor, Will Arnett, and Olivia Wilde, who we just saw in The Invite. What did you make of the teaser? Because it is very much a teaser. There's like three lines of dialogue in it.

I think that it is a, look, you already said it. We are deeply in the tank for Uncle Tony. We're very excited about this movie. We've had the chance to talk to him about it. He is very excited and passionate about this project. And very bullish on how it was turning out when we heard from him. And I love that searchlight was like, yes, we see your vision here. We understand that this is not

canonically part of the Reed Richards Expanded Universe and yet we are still going to release into the theaters and they're steering into, it appears that in the marketing that they are steering into what the movie is which is a very, very kind of heady, emotional, psychological,

not exactly thriller, but drama that makes music and also like a deep, deep love of movies and how movies used to get made, which is very autobiographical for Tarnix's father, Frank, is a famous writer for the stage and screen. I thought, I thought, I think the marketing looks up to the task, which was exciting to see.

It'll probably, I imagine Fox Search Later, it's probably going to be a fall, late fall, like, awards season release. It's scheduled for December, which gives it runway to be in a festival, I would imagine. I defer to Bill Simmons podcast guest, Sean Fennessee for that. Bit of info. Did he drop any of that yesterday? I feel like I insulted you a little bit. Not it.

Not at all. You would not want me talking about The Odyssey on a podcast. Why? Because I haven't seen it and don't really have a take. Did you read it? In school. Did you guys read The Odyssey in school? Oh, well, we were both at Quaker schools, but some were a little more rigorous, I guess.

Well, I was a three sport athlete, so, you know, did not a lot of time for Cyclops. Did you pay for nerds? The only cyclops I acknowledge was that umpire behind me, am I right? It's good. Did you pay for some nerd to do the papers for you? I was probably the nerd doing the papers. But did you actually read The Odyssey? I believe I read The Odyssey in college.

In college. But for fun. No way. No! Come on. I'm just trying to steer into a bit. There was that moment there where I was reading like the letters of Robert Lowell and Elizabeth Bishop, but I was like, this is going to be such a lucrative life for myself.

I can really, if you squint, you can see the path towards profitability. 30 years later, I'm just like, yeah, Dr. Holtow was really bad. domestic disturbance. Bing bong. Good stuff. There was another trailer that I wanted to ask you about, but I don't know if you've actually seen it.

Last behemoth take. Oh, sure. I did have another question. So, do you feel like this, is this a heat check moment for Will Arnett dramatic actor? Do you, do when you see... Is this thing on is the heat check, right?

Well, we've now entered the hot zone. Do you think? I don't even know what that term would be. It's like when you let a heat check shooter just keep shooting? Right. So my point was that like he... I guess that's like Cam Thomas, you know,

who's now out of the league. It's like, you just keep chucking it up there, man. You got it. Unlike Will Arnett, Cam Thomas does not have a podcast to fall back on. He easily could, though. Do you think? Yeah.

Do you think the NBA needs more X player podcasts? Just as much as they do Will Arnett podcast, yeah. That's the take you should have used on Bill. I just wondered if like, I thought it was interesting that, and I think Olivia Wild, you and I both think was incredible in the invite.

Yes. So I'm excited to see her acting in this movie. And I think he cast people, you know, it is a very like 20-25. I don't, Tony doesn't work like this, but in terms of studios like greenlighting people, I think coming into like being in 2025, being like, oh, Will Arnett's probably going to get an Oscar nomination for his thing on, Pedro Pescal is going to be in the number one movie of the year,

Fantastic Four. Well, they both replaced other actors on this movie. That's true. So Pedro Pascal replaced Oscar Isaac, who was initially attached, and then Will Arnett came in for David Harbor. Right. So Moon Knight and Red Guardian were originally going to be in it. Yeah. And we ended up with Mr. Fantastic and Job. Yeah.

Okay. Win. I have a question for you that I did not prepare you for, so I don't know if you have an answer. I'll take some coffee. Have one sip. Mm. Mm. Will we?

I'll use we. Yeah. Will we be breaking our Ryan, Murphy fast. Oh, our embargo. To check out the Shards, his adaptation of Brett Easton Ellis' is...

I'm so glad you asked this question. Yes. Yes, we will. Yes, we will. Did you watch the trailer? I didn't actually. Okay. It did not scream Brett Easton Ellis to me.

Did it scream Ryan Murphy? More than that. Interesting. I think that there are like... The Bretti Stenellis of it came through in the voiceover narration about what these characters like to do, which is hump and do coke.

Get after it? Yeah. Uh-huh. But I haven't read the show. shards. Is it any good? I didn't finish the shards. I went back to, you know, epic poetry.

Speaking, that actually is not the, if you're putting your arms around my collegiate experience, reading experience, it really did toggle between Brady Sinellis and Homer. I am a big fan of Brady Sinellis's novels and sometimes

apologist of his novels. And I usually have had the get up and go to finish them, even the weaker ones, I couldn't do it with the shards. What would you say is the best? Best. What's your favorite? Rules of Attraction.

I love Rules of Attraction. And the movie's pretty good too. But, did you do one where it's like, no, I sometimes get like mid to late McEnany and mid to like confused? But which one? set had one set in Japan.

Oh, that's that, you mean you're talking about Maconarney's second novel Ransom? Yeah. Which, in which an incredibly handsome guy named like Mac Jackanerney like goes to Japan to like study the purity of karate at a dojo and like sleep with women.

We used to be a proper country. Okay? Are we allowed to say that? That book is so insane. And it is 100% just been memory hold. Do you think if we pitch that to Paramount Plus right now we would get greenlit. Paramount's the studio that's interested.

I'll tell you that much. So, all this is to say, the, really I think maybe the only Ryan Murphy project that I've really

enjoyed was the OJ, American Crime Story OJ season. And we... I liked the, I liked what I think I I think I finished.

I liked the Versace one too. Oh yeah, that was, okay. So, but particularly I thought the OJ won and to a different degree. the Versace one. I just thought that was a perfect combination of subject matter and artist, or story and storyteller, because the OJ story is tawdry. And I think Ryan Murphy is a poet laureate

of particular flavor of like California tawdry. So I think the marriage of him with Breddy Sinellis is potentially a really good one, like in the sense that they, I think, would operate well together. Yeah. So I am interested. Okay. Well, that'll be something new and fresh for us. And we, we, could use a refresh. It also has your preferred Homer, Homer Gear. It's got Homer Gear and Kyah Gerber, am I right? Two of your favorites who just did it on their own. You know what I mean? Just like... Look, as a NEPO, I can't really blame them. It's true. Yeah. Do you guys have a meeting? That's right. You go to? Hey, Kaya, what's up? Cool. What are you reading? She's got a copy of your dad's like 1981 video guide open. Hey, y'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture

online and wonder what if, like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. Okay, so do you want to call this the best shows of the year?

Do you want to call it our favorite shows of the year? Here's the thing that I've been struggling with, Andy. Okay. The unknowability of the totality of television, you know? And also maybe, maybe not wanting to know everything. And the, you know, because it's like, it's like, I think that there are going to be some things that get left out here. There are going to be some things that we didn't finish.

From this list that we're going to offer up? You could make arguments that something should be get in, should get in there. But I have felt more challenged this year than usual by staying on top of like everything that's relevant in television. Do you have like a list of not to put you on the spot, but do you have like a woulda kudas list, like things that you kind of hope, do you hope to engage with or things that you feel remiss? Because I'll tell you one thing.

My conscience is clear. Is it? Crystal. You don't care. No, I didn't say I don't care, but like I, hit me if you have some because I'm curious. I mean, like it's like riot girls, like the Sally. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, like I feel bad for not saying that.

Like, we've been criminally behind on or really ignorant of dark winds. I really only watched the first few episodes of interview with a vampire, so I'm not prepared for, like, the vampire list at. Like, things like that where I know that there are things of people I really respect their opinion and love. and I just haven't caught up on it. And I think probably they look at us and they're like, damn, those guys like Star City. It's true. What about maybe we'll get to it

when we finally can get to it. But I do find what's happened to that show The Gold so interesting in that we really, really love the first season of it. They made a second season of it, which was released in the UK last year. And I believe is now coming to our shores via PBS masterpiece or something in the fall.

I have to tell you something. That is so specific. Last night I had a couple of glasses of rosé No shame in it And this was after you recorded the Bill Simmons buck Yes it was after And then I I tucked into bed Because I knew I had to come in here and chat with you

You need to rest for that I am about midway through London falling The Patrick Radenkeef book Oh yeah And right as I was like getting into bed The fucking The gold case comes up in the book No

And I was just like to fucking streams are crossing, let's go. Did you sit bolt up right in bed? Yes, yes. Was Veeby alarmed? No. That's cool. Yeah, I was like, this is what it's all about.

I'm just trying to think, though, of any example of something that was relatively available, like the season one. And now it's like, you have to, it's like, oh, I used to get this product at Albertsons or Acme or whatever your local supermarket is. But now it's only available by bespoke delivery from the tinned fish shop, you know, outside of Sevilla. I almost wish we could go back to like going to like websites like Iraqgoals.net to watch. That was you, dude. That was me.

That was my spot. Because that's where I used to watch like live streamed soccer. That's also where you were like, you ever heard about a show called Black Mirror? Yeah. And I was like, no. Is it in the UK? And you were like, not yet. It's only on this website.

It was like basically you had to like download episodes of Black Mirror off of BBC from like Torrance and stuff. Is the statute of limitations clear on that, do you think? They can come for me if they want, but I can think of a few defense attorneys who would take my case up. Okay. Well, I think this is also smart because I think we've learned in recent elections that like Gen Z voters, they don't really care. What they care about is how you own it. You know what I mean? Like own your problematic past or posts, that's the case maybe for you.

How do you want to do our best of here? What did you do? I have a long list of 17 shows. Oh, damn. I have a numbered list of 10. I have a numbered list of 10. I bet we have tons of overlap, as listeners of the podcast would suggest.

You know, ordinarily I would count us down. But I think that it might be a little bit more interesting if we sort of said we stipulate that these are the top five, which I think would probably be for both of us the same things. Would you like to tell me your top five? Of course, I'm looking at it. I'm like, who wrote this list? I'll tell you what my top five is while you think about yours.

What's weird about my list, because we were discussing before we started, like how I used the notes app, is that my list is like the pit, almonds. You know what I mean? Almond's is a great show. Olmonds are really good for you. Okay, yeah, why don't you go? And as far as I know, not like smothered in parasites. As far as you know.

Yeah. Number one, I have Woodos Bay. Me too. Number two, I have industry. Okay. Number three, I have Star City. That's my number three, too. Yeah.

Number four, I have the pit. Wow. Okay. What, is that okay? Yeah, we're Spider-Man meme right now. And number five, I have Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Okay, we are exactly the same boy, except at number two, instead of industry, I have beef. Is industry in your top five?

Top five, no, top ten, yes. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. I am being consistent. Is Widows Bay recency bias? Is it the shiny new car on the lot? What is it that makes it the number one show for us so far?

I think that it's a combination of all the things we love best about TV. I think that it's without question. I know this is true for me, but I think it's true for us collectively in the podcast. We really get excited about something that is getting everyone excited. We get excited about the potential for surprise, even in this over-indexed media landscape. We get excited about that it's a very pure, old-fashioned kind of joy of sharing the good news that there is something really wonderful out there

that you can discover and adopt. And the week-to-week release of Widows Bay reminded me of the week-to-week release of the Pitt season one. It did remind me of like those first beautiful few weeks five years ago or four years ago when the pit, sorry, when the bear dropped. So that collective euphoria is definitely part of it. But the other thing about it was no show

that's been out this year so far brought me a as much joy but also just made me so deeply, deeply impressed. Okay. In the sense of like the aesthetic and writerly and producerial and directorial achievement of it

was just at such a high bar that it just made me very happy. Yeah, I think that there is always going to be an extra 10% of juice that comes out of being like, wow, new people, new characters. Actors who I'm familiar with in different roles, like getting to express themselves in different ways.

And I think the totality, the realization of the world that Katie Diplode and Hero Marai brought to us was just astonishing. You know, they came on the show. We talked about that. I kind of had like a moment of revelation when Hero was talking about, you know, putting, working with Katie to build out the visual world of that show. And, you know, and I often, I think, get seduced by the camera movement or, you know, you know, expressive lighting or whatever I think are the tools of the director or the ways that a director might sign their name.

And to hear him talking about, you know, set design, production design, costume design, building out like a thematic and consistent kind of way to see this whole thing, that to me is direction, you know. And Katie is obviously like the creator of the show and a brilliant writer. and I think brought her sensibility of kind of the Mike Scher sitcom era and molded it with some of the best elements of not mystery box television but genre television. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

For me, industry took the biggest swings, took the most chances, broke the most hearts, bloody the most noses, ruin the most bank accounts. You know, like it was, I think I just, We'll just never ever look at this show

as anything less than among the best things that have come out this decade. And what it's done with the characters, I think once we get done with it next year and take a step back and see like, can you fucking believe when you go back to episode one and you see Yasmin and Harper on their first days at PurePoint

where we leave them, and especially where we left them in this previous season, it's an unbelievable journey. And it still feels plausible. It still feels real. It still feels very, very current. And it's thrilling to look at and it's thrilling to watch. Separate and apart from, you know, I thought the season was incredible and had incredible highs and also had some, to my mind, lows.

So it's in my top 10, but not my top five. But I think the way that I think about the show and the thing that fills me with the most excitement about the show, and this is recency bias. but I think Mickey and Conrad would appreciate this is when you watch as much World Cup as I've been watching for the last few weeks as we all have hopefully. As you've supported Rojas. Well, I'm listening purely in the Catalan feed.

My favorite thing is when the English announcers are calling the matches and like someone just immediately dribbles and shoots over the crossbar and they're like, you'd like to see a bit more cleverness, a bit more invention, a bit more optimism, there, you know, when whoever has the ball.

And that's what I think about when I think about industry, where I'm like, okay, they've, they've got the ball. They never fail to try something. No, they do not try to defend a one-nothing lead. They do not park the bus. They do not even have a... And they could. You could do yet another season of crazy investments over here at Pierpour and Eric's swinging

is bad on the floor, you know? They do not have an emergency break on the vehicle that. with their driving and what do we root for when we watch things. So I think that's unique and thrilling. We didn't get to talk about the Star City finale together. Excuse me, beef erasure. Well, I was just...

I don't know. I'm going to go to Star City. I just want to say... Sorry, I'm acting like you were a vegan. Yeah, go ahead and talk about beef. No, I just want to say again, like my admiration for this season has only grown. Oh, right, because industry's not in your top five.

My bad. Yeah. Yeah. I just think that Lee Junction, Sunny, who created the show, like is using contemporary television at such an elite level. And what I mean by that is like the Netflix model and the Netflix Largesse and the Autour showrunner model to make something and like the celebrity star machine

in terms of who he's casting and who he has access to. And like Phineas is doing the music. But to do it to make something that is so, such a tightrope walk of farce and searing emotional social drama that's about right now and the way that we live, through screens and internationally all at once, I find, I find thrilling. I just thought that show was incredible.

Yeah, it's in my, it's on my top ten, yeah. But it's not, it's not in my top time. I'm glad we didn't, I'm glad, though, you were going to, I did want to talk Star City because we didn't get to talk about the finale. Your thoughts are not on the record. They're not. I think that my big takeaway was like the extent to which that functions is both a series in season finale, you know.

I think obviously there's final moments that suggest like, you know, the story going forward. And obviously there's a timeline that for all mankind is laid out with several of the characters from Star City that suggests story to be told yet to be told. I really, really, really, really, really want a second season. I would love to see it. But, you know, if you were just going to do like a short novella about, you know, the Soviet side of this story, this would be the perfect one. But don't you think there is too much, I know that you want it,

so I'm not asking you to be devil's advocate here, but like, because the show so brilliantly privileged the inner emotional life of characters versus, you know, the Narcos Wikipedia, even fake history model of just showing us cogs in the larger machine,

that like there's almost too much still left on the table to feel good about a resolution. Like I think I want it. I know you're not arguing otherwise, but like I want the second season, and not because I need to know what happened with the Venus program,

but more like these particular people at this moment in this fake history, what happened to them? Yeah, I want to see what happens with Anastasia and Sasha. I want to see what happens with the internet. Absolutely. I also want to say because I got to talk to the showrunners Matt and Ben,

but I didn't, I don't think I get to talk too much specifically without them. And I did see someone saying, you know, the usual, like, oh, we just, we glaze the shows that the showrunners come on to talk about. And I don't... It goes the opposite way, guys. We clays the shows and then we ask the short.

Because that makes us interested in talking to them. I want to be really clear about something. Like, I didn't, we didn't invite them on. And then I watched the finale and there was like, oh, I guess I'll just dance around some stuff. Like, I fucking love that when it came down to the decision to do we make the single most emotionally compelling finale possible? Or do we listen to the bright boys in the science consulting department and say, like, oh, actually, Anastasia probably couldn't jump from orbit.

and land in Finland to rescue her arranged marriage husband. They said, fuck logic, we're going with our heart here. That's what it was interesting to me. And so you could talk all you want about how the show does not have fealty to the historical record of Finlandization, where Finland sent people back who tried to come over from the Soviet Union. Or you could just be like, that's so sick and it suits the characters. Maybe Finland's like relationship to Finlandization be different if Russia, if Russia,

the Soviets had gotten to the moon? Can't they explain anything away by having this ripple effect coming off of their moon landing? Also, if you genuinely watch that show and you're like, this would be better if it was closer to the historical record or to the logistics of orbital space travel

than, I don't know, touch grass nerd. I don't even know who we're talking to, but the entire show is an act of suspension of disbelief. It's Soviet speaking and close. English and at points like acting way more like English people than probably Soviets. Have you heard it? We often small sample size this, but like have you, do you have any anecdotal experience in your life of people being like, oh, should I check that out and then liking it

despite having some skepticism? Star Cities specifically? Yes. You've converted some people? Yes. Good. Yeah. We we converted Tracy Lutz. Oh yeah. I mean, I don't think he was skeptical. I just think he was like I would never of thought to check this out were it not for your enthusiasm. How come he doesn't want to be third chair of this podcast? I think you...

I police the side of the table too fiercely. I think that there's room for one big personality on that side of the table. I would be interested to see the vibe between you two. We get along. Yeah. No, you get along great.

But I think like... Yeah. I'm Chris Paul, man. Everybody gets a shot. Okay. I don't need to say what I think of. Famously beloved teammate Chris Paul. just celebrated in every locker room he's ever been in.

Great. He just demands a lot. He gets it. The pit, I guess I've diminished here because of its consistency. I got excited about Windows Bay. I get excited about Star City. I think industry just took me places that I never would have guessed it would have at the beginning of the season.

The pit essentially iterated on its first season, did the very wise thing of not having, it didn't have a mass shooting. It didn't have a mass casualty. event was just like this was a very hard day. This is about doctors needing their own medicine. I thought it was remarkable. And especially as the last few episodes, I thought, were extraordinary.

It's no criticism that it's at fourth here. It's just where it wound up. Was it at fourth for you? We had the same top five except for one. The Seven Kingdoms. I would love to know if there was any influence on this season of House of the Dragon by Nine of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure that's not how TV production works where

I'm sure they were basically done House of the Dragon by the Time Night of the Seven Kingdoms was airing. I think they overlap. They don't film in the same place. House the Dragon films at my beloved Leaveston Studios near Scenic Watford, England. And I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms was back in Belfast, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah.

I actually think, and I haven't rewatched since it aired earlier in the year, but I feel like Night of the Seven Kingdoms, despite getting Emmy attention and being nominated for Best Drama Series in its first season, it's almost underrated, and I feel even more impressed by its achievement in the light of this season of House of the Dragon.

I'm not trying to, like, rage bait or pit them against each other. It's just you and me, man. Don't worry about them. But now Tracy's listening, and he's like leaning in, you know what I mean? And I want him to respect this take. We didn't really talk about it. It's totally fine. I don't have a lot to add to the conversation about this week,

House of the Dragon episode, but I was noticing the way that it feels in ways good and, frankly, bad that the show has so clearly ventured out beyond the pier, so to speak, like, whether it's the lack of George Martin or whether it's the, like, a... You mean off the text? Not just the text, but just like this... It's still relatively, like, close to it, yeah. I just have no, like, taking the, making the aesthetic decision to do the Reneura, POV episode was a bold swing that I didn't know was in its playbook and that was exciting to see

and we were joking to like casting casting what's his name the American guy Dan I keep when you say like Dan Fogelberg as Fogler sorry yes as Torrin the new master of coin like these are some these feel like aesthetic choices that are outside of what I would have expected it certainly breaks from the orthodoxy of the first two seasons or kind of the template that was set by Game of Thrones. And remember, one of the weirdest things about House the Dragon is that, like, it has the same theme music. It is so intent on telling you, it's Sunday, remember what it feels like? Let's get back to that. This week's episode was fucking interminable, but it also had like these moments, Jesus Christ, but like I turned it on after England and it was just like watching those

last 10 minutes again for two hours. There's the scenes inside of Tumbledon where it's just like, oh, Martha Stewart's Westeros, where the color palette is totally different. And I, I have wanted things like that on the show, but it feels so like I understand why often production design on Westerosi shows have been conservative because it is hard to say we've always done it this way, but what if we did this? It is challenging.

Sure. Night of the Seven Kingdoms felt effortless in the way it was like, no, no, it's going to be this now. And I'm not saying it was as bold of a turn as even some of the decisions seen to scene in House of the Dragon this year, but it launched itself and asserted itself. as its own thing so quickly that I'm very impressed by it. I greatly prefer this version of this story

where we're getting outside of the, essentially the two family castles. I was actually curious whether or not there's a term or if there is an exercise when you're in a writer's room where you're kind of diagramming how these are the two main characters and then from these two characters, these two characters will come and then from these two, not necessarily like they begat them,

but how, you know, now that we've got like Ormond and, you know, Aigon and Laris are over here. And we've got like all these different, um, tones and all these different like kind of aims that these characters may have,

what they want out of all of this. And, you know, that has come at the expense maybe of the Valerian family tree where I think Coralus has been sidelined since his, you know, if you're not going to mint my kids, then you can go fuck yourself, like we haven't had as much of him. But I really enjoy, I am enjoying this version of this show

much more than the first two seasons. Yeah, without question. I just think that like everything about the show, including my own reactions to it, feel very reactive and still like in the light of what we are used to or what we've come to expect or what we've enjoyed before from this type of storytelling or this specific IP world where Night of the Seven Kingdoms was like,

hey, man, it's just a tournament. Let's chill out. Yeah, right. Let's just, like, I don't remember the last time. It had been since Game of Thrones, honestly, where I was like, I just fucking love this new character. I'm psyched. This is awesome.

Let's just hang out here. Which is the new character that you loved? Many, specifically I was thinking about, what's his name? I'm not going to remember all these people's names. The Baratheon? The guy who the horn. Danielings, yeah. Danielings.

I bet that you and I are going to have some variants in our bottom five. Great. I want to hear yours. Okay. You want me to go six to ten or ten to six? Six to ten. Let's keep going the same direction. NBC's Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins.

Great pick. Seven. HBO's industry. Eight, the show that I'm most excited to talk to you about today. HBO's The Dark Wizard. I love you. Yeah. I do the work.

Slowly. But I do the work. I never expected you to watch it. I was just like, this is great. Check it out if you miss 100 foot wave. But you're also like check it out if you like things that are great. Yeah. And I did.

I like things that are great. Number nine, the Disney Corporation's Wonder Man. I have that on my long list. And then I put the agency at number 10 only because I haven't finished it. And it could be a grower still. But agency season two. But just in terms of my engagement with it, it deserved a spot. My number six is the bear.

Look at you. Yeah, the bear. I think those last two episodes make the beginning of the season. a little bit more cohesive to me. I think if you look at it in totality with Gary, the standalone episode with Bernthal and Evan Moss Backrack, between Gary, between moments and the first few episodes of the final season, and then specifically episodes seven and eight,

I just think it was a wonderful send-off. And I really, I think perhaps there's some sentiment, but I also really admire how the visual style of the show evolved. the stillness in some ways that it achieves in the last season compared to the frenetic nature of the first season and I thought that there were some really beautiful performances specifically from Backrock in this final season. He's amazing.

I do think you're right to highlight something that I think is probably going to be overlooked a little bit, which is for all of the, I think, fair criticism the bear has gotten in recent seasons of like story, narrative character paralysis, I think it's important to differentiate that from the observation that the creative team did clearly look at this as an opportunity to do something different in terms of the filmmaking. Yes. Like we are going to do a season that is going to be this and it will feel distinct in the terms of like how much time passes, the music choices, the camera movement and all that.

You can't just say it was more of the same in that regard. I also wonder whether time will be a little bit kinder to this series if you binge. it, if you rediscover it, if you rewatch it. I don't know in our landscape now if that's something people are doing with shows of recent vintage like this, but I do think that looked at as a whole as a total meal, it's going to be a better experience than, are they going to get out of this kitchen or is like he going to quit? Is what, like, what's going to happen next?

Like, you know, I think now that I've seen the entire thing, I appreciate it more. I think that's really interesting because the show is about time. I mean, two seasons were just about a ticking clock. Yeah. And when it is now, it has now been set free from the bounds of the Mad Titan chronos. And I just wanted to bring it back to the Odyssey, if I could. And it may have a different, it may be a different experience. Yeah.

We can talk about Dark Wizard in a second. It's my number seven. Nice. Number eight, Shorzie, as usual. And number nine, the agency, almost done that. Been, been ticking away. I thought this season has been excellent. pacing wise much improved over the first one I think also like you know as is the case with

the bureau you see these supporting characters become they could have their own show they could have they have they have there are as novels worth of interesting material for for these various supporting characters so the bear dark wizard uh shorzy the agency and my last one is something very bad is going to happen the i wondered if that was going to make god do that list series about a cursed woman. I thought that was great. And a really interesting kind of partner show to Widows Bay in that it was trying to play with horror over like a long form story, which is one of the most difficult things to do.

Yeah, I couldn't, I watched the first episode and admired it and couldn't do it because of just the ratio. I thought it was very cool and it was very visually compelling. And as far as my limited. between my fingers peeking out knowledge of horror. I was like, oh, she's nailing it. Yeah. But it just wasn't leavened with the comedy.

Yeah. Nor should it have been. It's its own show, but that was a bridge too far from me. There's a lot of bleeding out of their eyes. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about, in depth, about Dark Wizard. What prompted you to revisit this? Yeah.

Did you watch the first episode? No, I never. I... Okay. What prompted you to turn it on? Well, a couple things. You, I mean, sincerely, you were, like it's really good.

Yeah. I, my reasons for not engaging with it were really stupid and pithy, which was I was like, I think I've given enough of my time to Wizards named Potter on the HBO network recently, which was a killer text to send once. Did you send it to me? You were among the recipients. You know, I sometimes recycle material. I had no reason not to do it.

than just like time and because it didn't feel the urgency of scripted or whatever. And then, yeah, when I was traveling, I was like there are four episodes of this. And it's probably, you know, there's a certain way that you can engage with a documentary that is like perfect for airplanes. Yes. So it was. You get off the plane and you're like, I am an expert in this subject. Yes.

I can't wait to tell everyone. Yeah. Also, it's good. It was kind of undercut by the fact that I did have working Wi-Fi on this airplane. But there is like a really interesting like Faraday cage. of the brain that happens when you start watching a documentary in which you are blessedly ignorant

of everything, in which you're like, now I can't use Google anymore because what if I accidentally find out what happens? So, can we do like a few minutes of table setting because I want to just try to get people to watch it. Yeah,

I'll just say this is a four-part docu-series directed by Peter Mortimer and Nick Rosen who have made several films and I think some other series about alpinists, you know, about mountain climbers. They made a film called The Alpinists that you can watch on Peacock, which is extraordinary.

And I think one thing that's sort of this, and the Dark Wizard follows a man named Dean Potter, who is an infamous climber from the late 90s and early 2000s, kind of a contemporary of Alex Honnold, and Potter sort of made Yosemite

and the valleys below the mountains and El Cap and and all the famous mountains in Yosemite, his playground. And was kind of a punk rock icon of mount climbing as it entered the mainstream consciousness through the proliferation of like video cameras and then more and more high-end cameras that could capture that kind of action.

And he was also the basically the face of Patagonia as it became more than just like the stuff you wore when you were camping. It was like a lifestyle brand as well. and I think was featured in several photographic campaigns for Patagonia. He is defined by his boundary pushing. He was one of the people who was like, I can go climbing with a parachute so that if I fall.

He invented this. Yes. Like he brought parachutes with him while he would. Because he's such a wild thrill seeker who referred to, I didn't realize this was a phrase, the death consequence as a potential outcome for his activities and what that does to you and to your mind, he was just chasing highs and he himself was like very clearly and admittedly bipolar and had mental health struggles and was always pushing. And so it went from free soloing at an absurd,

unprecedented degree to base jumping. Yeah. To then realizing he could combine them into something he quite cleverly and clearly, you know, healthfully called free basing. Yes. Where you could free solo places and if you fell you could just pull your shoot yeah and then started doing um wing suit flying which is essentially like human flight you know it's jumping off a mountain to fly in a suit uh i would say just for people who haven't checked this out and we could talk a little bit more in depth about it in a second with a spoiler warning the thing that blows my mind almost as much as what potter does is the fact that they were able to capture this stuff all of it because i imagine as this show goes on,

you know, I don't know if drone technology is it doesn't seem like it. It's become widespread, but you basically have Potter like was compulsively documented everything

in his life. If you didn't have a camera crew with him, he had his buddy filming him. Sweet winky. Yeah, and so those guys would basically have rope climbs next to him that would go up or maybe they would get taken to the top of a of a peak and then they would repel down to film potter coming up.

But the footage in the show is fucking extraordinary. And it's a similar sensation you get from when you're watching 100 foot wave, although a lot of that I think is done with drones where you're like, how the hell am I getting like this swooping shot of this guy going down a titular 100 foot wave? The same thing is going on in Dark Wizard where you're just like, I just can't believe there was a camera there when this guy fell off a mountain and threw a parachute up in the air. I mean, it's unreal to watch. And the camera, the omnipresence of the cameras and the documentation and the show does a really beautiful job with his, with Potter's journals and drawings and animating them.

And just the outrageous like 24-7 seemingly access to his mind as well as his actions also speaks to one of the really compelling tensions of the show, which is he believed what he was doing was art. He believed what he was doing is spirituality. And he had like many people who believe those things in the vice group of contemporary life had a very very, challenging relationship to publicity, to profit, to partnerships and participation. And so the fact that he's just like, I am a private person communing with nature, but I must be, all of this must be documented, is the central tension. And some of the most compelling parts of the series on an emotional level are the central tension between Potter being like deeply Gen X and then everyone else younger than him.

Yeah. And you watch him trying to navigate this just like middle finger anti-authoritarianism spiritual lifestyle. And then Alex Honnold shows up on the scene and he's roughly a decade younger. I think he's like eight or nine years younger. And he's like an IT guy. He has no fear. He has no qualms about turning free climbing, free soloing L cap into a square space ad.

and the relationship that each of them have to each other, but also to their work and also to their own minds, is so fascinating. Well, it's just, it's unbelievable. It's the, it's, and it can be applied to so many different, that relationship and their different approaches to mountain climbing could be applied to so many different arenas of life where Potter, um, labors over and stresses over and frets over,

like, how am I going to climb this? I could die. Like, it's not the right. time yet. It's not, you know, he's legitimately feeling it. He's legitimately scared, but I think he's also participating in a narrative about like a guy facing a great challenge. And Honnold's like, I fucking climbed

it. I climbed it. I looked like, I looked at it and then I just climbed up it. You know, like, and it not only is it like drives potter nuts because this guy keeps beating him two things that he wanted to do but he's almost challenging the very idea that one individual could claim

ownership over a mountain or over a climb. Like, Honnold's like, if you want to beat me, beat me. Otherwise, I get out of my way. And it's not that, you know, I love all of that. I love the social subculture of Yosemite and guys living in the valley and guys hanging out there year round and getting to know the Rangers and what they eat and like the stews that they eat and kind of like the, not dumpster diving, but the way they'll be like, oh, you can go over here to pick up good Wi-Fi or you can eat, you know, sometimes like people leave food behind here and you can pick it up and stuff like that. All fascinating.

I think obviously to talk any more in-depth about the show. One thing before spoilers. Invariably, if we are watching either in person or more often in our own respective Faraday Cages sporting events, I will ask or text, obviously none of us play professional football. But if we did, like, what position do you think you would enjoy doing? Or I'll ask you about like, we're watching World Cup. I'm like, better to be good at basketball or be good at soccer for one day. And either way, it's part of like the fantasy of like these people are the best at doing something that looks fun or must feel great to be able to do. And that is part of the thrill.

I will say that free soloing has jumped above 100 foot wave surfing as the thing I have no interest in ever doing and feel no spiritual connection to whatsoever. It is fucking terrifying. I think it's incredibly healthy in life to have things you like to look at. Sure. Yeah. Not everything needs to be a participation thing. and I don't have any interest in doing either of those things, but I realize that I really love watching people,

like, accomplish great feats in nature. I mean, it might, it's just, it's a great use of the endless libraries of content to have more and more exciting nature documentaries. There is, okay, so here we'll put a little pin in this. Yeah, we'll do a little spoiler. And we'll spoil a bit of Dark Wizard. It's been out for a while, so maybe people have gotten a chance to see it. And I think also this is in general.

If you Google Dean Potter, you'll see that he passed away in 2015. He died while doing one of these free base jumps. He was doing the flying. The flying, yeah. In Yosemite. Ethically and journalistically, they make a decision in this series similar to the one, I can't remember the name of it, but there was a free diving documentary about a woman who would do these free dives very deep into the ocean and come back up and there's

all these like depressurization and making sure you can make to here and here and how long can you hold your breath. And in a similar way, the documentary keeps up the appearance that this person may be alive. Like the way that they frame the inner views. Like, it's not a shock, but if you don't Google, you'll be like, ah, this person died. I mean, I would say, it's pretty clear to me that he is not participating in the documentary and that the access to. In the present tense.

Well, and the fact that they have unfettered access to his private journals and things, suggests. But so I was in that fugue state because I did the first two on one flight, and then a few days later I did the other ones. And so I was stuck. I knew that he was dead. I wasn't sure. I can't remember if you texted. You were like, is Dean Potter still out there?

I did not. No, okay. I did not. Does sound like me, but I didn't in this case. But holding that knowledge and then wondering, you know, simultaneously, which of these things is going to kill him? Because it could be almost anything that he's doing in any of the episodes. And then how is it in the fabric of the documentary?

Yeah. Because the documentary is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the cup game when you're getting scammed on the street where it's like they're just trying to reveal something to you. It's actually like trying to tell you a story about risk and adventure and mental health and male friendship. I think that there's like an obvious,

they made a narrative decision not to say that he dies in the first episode. And they do it to create a sense of tension rather than a sense of tragedy. It is obviously tragic what happened, but you can say in the beginning that this guy was a divisive and beloved figure in this community and was constantly pushing

and what this show is about or what this story is about is about people who willingly take their life in their hands and what happens when one thing goes wrong and whether or not whether or not like that's an acceptable sort of consequence of a hobby essentially. You know, like it can be a lifestyle. It can be something that brings you closer to kind of an epiphany or a state of spiritual nirvana. But it still is a hobby, you know, like. Yeah. And you can die doing it. And one of the most touching and affecting and surprising turns in the documentary is that,

although I don't think it's surprising for people who are paying attention to this more as a story of mental health or addiction, which I think tends to follow a similar pattern, which is that in the fourth episode, but also essentially in the last act of his life, he had a moment of calm. And he had a moment of a connection with a partner, woman Jen, who he had worked with before at Patagonia,

whom he reconnected with. her children and the role that he played in her, in their life. And then how to know where he gets a fucking dog who becomes his best friend and starts repelling around the world and face jumping with him. A lot of comments about whether or not

that was a humane thing to do with the dog. Dog seems psyched. Dog seems psyched, honestly. Dog seems psyched. Only to be pulled back in by the old demons, among them, are ego. Yeah. About being able to do more than other people

or to be challenged by younger people. And it's really affecting the way that story is told. I think that they make such smart and really compelling editorial decisions which is lingering on not just the ways that Dean Potter's psychology

hurt the people around him, which is a familiar story again. Anytime you watch greatness, there's always the people who get left behind. But really underscoring how the people in his wake loved him profoundly in ways that could never be matched. And so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of middle-aged men

crying in the last part which, you know, know, who among us? I thought that was really, really affecting in that there's an incredible moment in the last one where one of the guys who got really hurt by Dean and broke off with them years before breaks down and basically is like calls out to someone behind the camera and we realize that someone working on the show is one of the other guys. And he's like, can you say something? He's like, you're being a pansy. And then he comes over and they hug each other. And I'm like, what was left in this guy's wake is present. Sure. The other thing I really wanted to say was the last 20 minutes of the third episode,

maybe, we don't do this, but if we were doing like scenes of the year or sequences of the year, China. Yeah. It is so fucking insane and so powerful and depressing and intense. Basically what happens is at a very low point in his life and career before he kind of briefly resurfaced as a family guy. Yeah. And it has just dating someone who took her life on his property and at a very, very low point, isolated from everyone except good old Winky,

Dean is offered the chance to go basically put on a show on live television. Chinese state television, yeah. Chinese state television where they pay him $200,000 to do a big base jump and then do a like a rope line. A wire walk, yeah. A wire walk. And he's there and the conditions aren't.

It's not just that the conditions, are an ideal or are unfamiliar, it's that it's the opposite of everything he's been doing up to this point where he's surrounded and crowded and there's voices and everything that would be distracting to anyone, but particularly to someone

who's like a soul surfer of this shit. And there's all this footage of like him trying to do this walk. First, yelling at everyone for putting up a net. Saying I'm not a circus performer. I don't do this shit with a net. Take the net away. So that there is a death consequence.

Walking above a canyon. And the day before he's practicing with a test. Heather, which isn't super cool either because basically he's walking and then will fall and has to catch and like spins around it. Yeah. And the cameras are watching him do this and fail and fail and fail. And he doesn't make it very far at all.

And the narration is telling us that like even if he made it to the middle, it would be harder than anything he'd ever done because it's wobbling because it's farther. Yeah. And then that night he yells at Winky and tells him he's worthless for not bringing, and I, this is a direct quote, buttweed, which is apparently. the weed you bring to China by storing it within your body cavity. Yes. Winky did not do that.

Winky is his photographer and kind of like his guy. He's kind of like older like but who loves him. And then the next day the cameras are there and there is no net and he has not been able to do this with a tether. And he does it. And at the end he collapses weeping onto these Chinese rocks. And like the Chinese announcers are like,

it's translated with the subtitles are like, Mr. Potter is very, emotional. This is just an incredibly visceral and horrifying encapsulation of what the world does to all of us to some small degree, but particularly to this guy who, whether simplistically or not, and clearly ruinously, kind of believed in his own mythology. Mythology, that's the word. And he's, that's a great encapsulation of all of his best and worse impulses.

Like, there is a degree of an entertainer in him, you know, but there is also a degree of, like, a solitary artist. How do you make those two things converge on Chinese state television, you know? And how do you define your life if it's only by risking death? Yeah, and also, like, you're doing something where you're responsible for other people, and it's like if you're going to essentially, like the, your wrinkle, the thing you bring to the game is I might die. Like, that's dangerous for other people, and it's also dangerous for the people who love you. It's an extraordinary show. It was awesome. It was awesome.

I'm glad you checked it out. Thank you for your recommendation. See, I'm not just a co-host. I'm also a beneficiary. Should we do a little bit of after dark about the World Cup before we get out of here? Yes, and do you want me to save my sugar season two takes till next week?

How many did you watch? No, I just watch one. I just watch one, man. I, you know, just like... Did you stroke out for a second? Do you know what my review is, honestly, I could have just... Do you know the part... You know what it's worth pulling back the curtain is that he and I were taught, Andy and I were talking about like what to talk about on this episode and, you know, Lucky, the new Apple show.

Yeah. Sugar is back. And we both were like, I don't want to be down on a first episode of anything. Right now. It just doesn't feel good. Like, but I mean, I watched, I did watch the first part of the first episode of Lucky. And one of my favorite things about it is that it 1,000 percent. I have no inside knowledge.

but, like, clearly it started with a scene and then said X months earlier, but someone at Apple got the note that we're all sick of that, so it just took the Chiron away. Oh, so it's just a flashback without telling you what's happening? Yeah, but it still was like,

it'll be more exciting soon. Don't worry. Yeah, but yes, we didn't want to be negative, but like, there's something about sugar because it's like every few days, I'm like, there's an L.A. Noir show with Colin Farrell, and he looks great in suits, and we love him.

And I can't quite kick it. And my review of it ultimately is like that scene from the end of episode three of Succession Season 4 where they're at the bar in New York City and Logan says, I love you, but you're not serious people. Yeah. That's my review of sugar. It is such like, if we still had, like, if I still was a participant in the website and was like writing things, I would probably devote way too much time writing about this show.

Yeah. Because it is an exemplar of like, what are we doing? Because Colin Farrell being a private detective in L.A. with Apple's budget is like, let's do it. And shooting in L.A., right? Yeah. With most of the Breaking Bad cast and production team? Well, and, like, did so many things for season two that I'm like, that I admire.

Like, what they've done with the cast and, like, just looking at the people they've added. Added for season two are actors we really. like Tony Dalton, Tony Dalton, Jinha, Sasha Kaye, Shea Wiggum. Like, that's awesome. But as many people know, and I'm sorry for the spoiler, it is an LA noir show that is revealed that our main character is also an alien,

an alien who understands the world through old films. So it does the dream on, in which every so often it cuts to the movie that the scene is aping, which is cool when Fernando Morelis is doing it in the pilot, and then just fucking exhausting in season episode one, reshooting pool, and it's showing scenes of like the hustler. What's truly amazing, and I do feel like people who are studying how TV gets made these days about

this season, is that the opening, the first eight minutes of season two is the most impressive yada yada I've maybe ever seen, in which Sam Catlin, who used to work on the Vince Gilligan universe and worked on Severance briefly, is now fully running the show after coming on later, I think in season one. And so the first eight minutes are like, remember all that shit about all the other aliens and his hunt for his alien sister and the alien brother who ran off

with the knowledge of her existence? Give me eight minutes. Give me fucking eight minutes in a hotel room in Bangkok and will just be a detective show, I promise. And it almost gets there so that once he's finally back and investigating like brothers,

boxer brothers in Korea town, I'm like, okay. And it leans into other things. I'm like, I don't care where this alien gets his money and he buys, like, Hemingway's house in the Hollywood Hills. I'm like, let's do that. Yeah. But because it is a contemporary TV show

and it just feels this fealty to like, because there must be some people who are watching it being like, look, I don't know about detectives, but I fucking love aliens. There is this, it just feels the need to like try to touch this third or at this point, fourth rail, in which case he's like, at the end of this beginning of, he's beginning a new investigation. And at the end of the episode, he's like, maybe more of my brothers are still out there.

And he sends out like an alien distress signal. I'm like, just nobody cares. He's an alien. Here's what Sugar reminds me of. Yes. It reminds me of because this never happened. But it would almost be like you go to a California, you know, eatery. Yeah, sure.

And somebody's just like, oh, here we go. We've, sir, you ordered and we brought you the Brandzino. And you're like, I love Brandzino. And they're like, and it's the Brandzino, would you like some Parmesan with it? And you're like, absolutely not. Those two things shouldn't go together. Correct. We've also roasted some Parmesan inside the Branzino.

Would you like to tell us about how, would you like us to tell you about how we do things here? Yeah. And we put cheese inside of a roasted fish. You can't get it out. You know what I mean? You can't get it out. Now you're stuck with these two flavors that have been separated for a reason and are now brought together. And there is probably a pretty cool hour and 45 minute detective movie from 1997 about an alien.

And I think it could have worked. And I admire Colin Farrell for just trying stuff. But this was always like, it's in fact like you cannot separate it. Yes. And if you're pulling in it. And so I just, I, and for that reason, I'm out. Serialization. Serialization, intense canonical serialization, is the like de facto storytelling model of our time.

And it is also kind of the anchor and the curse. Yeah. Because just started over would be. better. Just start it in the right place is so crucial. But much like I am sure that there are a lot of... It would have been better if he wakes up and is like, God, it was a weird dream about me being an alien. Now it could be a detective.

There's a... I imagine right now there's some big brains who are dispatched to Atlanta to the set of Man of Tomorrow being like, so Supergirl, rejected, soundly. How do we now rework this movie to pick up the threads that people liked but not the ones they didn't like? And how do we edit Lobo out of this or reduce Millilocks? Whatever. We're

always they're always trying to backfill and front fill at the same time instead of telling the story. And the other sin is, and I mean no disrespect to all the lovely and talented people who must have worked on the show. If you're going to be a noir, you've got to get some crackling dialogue. You can't just cosplay it. And there's a scene in this episode where Colin Farrell, who looks the part, he's incredible, beautiful suit, beautiful car. And he's raising a cocktail in a bar. And he's having some, you know, like smoky conversation with a woman. And this is the dialogue.

Okay, unpack this for me. she says, I'm Charlotte. And he says, like the web. And she says, like the spider's web. What other web would there be? What other web is it? The worldwide fucking web? What other web?

What was that? I mean, I didn't think you were going to do anything on sugar. You have like a whole presentation here. This is amazing. What's the difference? So when she says he's like a spider's web, which I guess is an effective tool to capture prey. Yeah.

And she's like, no, no, I'm like the web that writes messages so a pig will live. And he's like, oh, I see how that's going to be relevant because I'm a farmer. Did he say that? No, but I'm trying to make it make sense. I won't be watching. Thank you. You saved me some time. I just want things to be good, man.

I know, and this is a passion project for you, you know? I get it. Did you have any observations about the World Club you'd like to share? Well, I did say in our text thread yesterday. with our English mate Joe that like now I do I feel like now I can apply for citizenship like I already have spent a lot of time

there and do enjoy a piece of steamed fish and then a night at the pub having a small beer sorry application rejected I'm just saying that like I did feel like this was my first full World Cup supporting the Three Lions and like I get it

confronted with Liam Gallagher's adage about we don't go out for one if I'm going out we're having hundreds. I have had drinks with Conrad Kay. Like I, and my drinks, I've watched him have drinks. You know, I, I confronted it every day along with my mortality and the heat death of my liver when I was there. I'm not good at that anymore. But, um, so watching England get its heart torn out on international television prepares you for your inevitable migration. No, it just made me feel like I'd earned it more because, you know, as a, as a lifelong,

fan of my beloved Tottenham Hotspur. Like, you know, we had a rough spell recently, but we're poised to come back stronger than ever, thanks to some crucial international signings. You are the sugar of being a Tottenham fan. Yeah, you're like, I'm arrived on this planet. Yeah.

I totally am. I read a lot of the athletic articles, and now I'm ready to go. Well, in my defense... And then we cut to, like, famous Gareth Bale goals. In my defense, I did, I've spent a lot of time in London recently and I've had, I have lovely friends across the aisle, both sides of the aisle.

Oh, both sides of the North London aisle? Well, and just across the Premier League, in English football generally. And I must say that culturally and emotionally, I really, really connected with the absolute abject misery and self-loathing of Tottenham fans, especially over the last season. I assure you all 20 clubs don't feel the exact same way about themselves.

feel right. I just felt like I was vibing with these friends in particular and where they were in their relationship to sport. And I also thought, I thought two things. And I'll share them just us.

Just us, dormice. Just this alien fucking podcasters. One was... This is where I take my skin off. Yeah, but you're... underneath it, it's just Liverpool red.

It's Bill. he's hosting this podcast he wouldn't put up with this shit that I did feel like some sort of perverse sports pride of like joining a team I was committing as they were getting relegated I was like this would be a good arc I'm okay with this

that even if we have to fight our way back to the Premier League like that's fine so I did feel like that was a good choice that was not front running and yet secretly my next step was realizing you know, because we finally got rid of, you know, the money manager who was really dragging the squad down with his... Daniel Levy?

Well, I knew that. I just didn't want to embarrass you. Sure. Yeah, with his, you know, his little bit of a skinflint, you know, like you wouldn't pay more than 100 pounds for transfer. You just drove a hard bargain. That's right. So to join a team now that they're like,

I guess we better spend and buy everybody. Yes. Is a really good time to become a fan. It is. If it blows up, you will be insolvent. But who among, I mean, that's all of us. Yeah. I also did feel like it was important to throw myself across the landmine of this club's,

I would say, complicated relationship to Judaism, you know, like, and then their fan base and some of the chants and some of the, I was like, I think that, I think this is a dialogue that could benefit from my presence. Are you, are you excited to engage with people about it? Thrilled, especially online. Yeah. I think it'll be good. I think that, you know, if you thought TV internet was annoying, wait until you fucking get a load of this. But do you think generally, like, I mean, you did share a lot of, I thought, quite smart thoughts about England's failed strategy yesterday. But as a longer and actually credentialed football fan, is there anything you would like to share about England's flame out?

And my burgeoning attempt, I mean, every four years, I'm like, I'm going to get really into club soccer. I want to know how accountable you want me to keep you. How do you want me to hold you accountable for this this new hot new passion of yours? Like do you want to be like, hey man, at 11 a.m. Tottenham's playing Everton. Yes. On Peacock. That will be good for both of us because you hate Everton.

And you'll, I don't like Everton. But like, I just want to know like, is this something where you're like, you want me to, you know, measure you as you as you go along or is it just like let you have your experience? I mean, I think that no, I want I want to be held accountable. Okay. Because I don't have children. So it's okay for me to watch. stuff whenever.

To be fair, maybe it's just like accrued hours. But like so far you haven't questioned my 76ers fandom bona fides, even though I don't really watch the games. Well, I don't really think you super love watching sports. I think they stress you out. I think you love following sports. I have, but yeah, well, the World Cup, maybe because of the lack of like decades of deep emotional parisocial fuckery.

Yeah. Has just been a pure joy. And you've never come out one side or the other on the Falklands either. Well, that's right. I'm like, let the voters of Maine decide that one too. Throw that one on the fire for them. I would like to be held accountable. I am excited.

Every four years, I do say some version of like, now is the time to just really become a dedicated Premier League fan. And then I run up against the realities of life and time zones. But I think it's, I think I'm ready. I'll say this about yesterday's match. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, it sucked. Also, when Lataro Martinez scored the winner.

Yeah. the reaction of the Argentinian players is is the plunger going into the vein that is what it is all about like yeah yeah yeah it's a it's a celebration but it's like a connection with their fans and it's also like an act that is unique in sports I think like scoring a goal for your national team to win a match

of that consequence yeah it blows my mind every time happens and it happens every couple months every couple years like whatever in a Premier League match in a Champions League match you'll see something and you're just like holy fucking shit I can't believe like 80,000 people

are having like an absolute like out of body experience the guys on the field are the same people as the people in the stands like it just feels like that is that is something that I chase all the time with this sport it's why I will never quit it and it's why for as much

of like, you know, a secondary market ticket hiking, you know, bullshit festival that you could see the World Cup as, it's still like unlike anything else. I was talking to Ian about this when I was just like, you know, we were talking about our buddies at Bad Brother and Nick at the bar who is in Philadelphia during the group stages was like, dude, just like some nights like 25 Ecuadorians would just come and hang out. You know, it's like, that never happens. That's not, there's not like a normal experience where people try. travel like this and people go to support their countries and their and their sides like this and it's

it's really astonishing so on the one hand like while i uh don't love that argentina team like watching them win in some way was like why i also love the sport yes the other object of fascination about yesterday is that they have had i've watched multiple generations at this point of the england national team yeah and several managers and there is something so deeply interesting about whether or not there is like an inherent characteristic in the English football player specifically that is like I can't really I can't imagine a success too big

you know like yes whether they whether they actually do start freaking out if it looks like they're gonna win or succeed yeah yeah and in some ways they would have been better off going down one nothing you know yeah but that fits the narrative because they could have just been like classic international underdogs we're going out on our shields yeah and we're going to play

play football and we're going to run at these guys and we're going to go for it you know and that instead they kind of accidentally seeded that role to the Argentine's and it was a weird match weird first half people kicking the shit on each other and then just like bang bang bang

and it's over and I was like oh that was a month and I think I have not I certainly have not earned my place at the commentators table but I think even I shot a WhatsApp being like this seems like the wrong strategy I do think they should play Offense.

You don't score one touchdown and go, okay, prevent defense. I mean, there are teams that have done that. Sure. Yeah. But it doesn't seem like a winning strategy. What would your, not to shine too bright a light on it, but what do you think your father would have thought about England going to defeat due to the strategic maneuverings of a German? I don't want to comment on how my father would have felt about that.

That specific nature. Yeah, I mean, who knows? Maybe he would have evolved a lot in the last 10 years, you know. Old wounds would have healed. Yeah, you know, like after Brexit, he would have been like, no, we're all part of one European family. But like, I think he had some resentment for the Germans. Sure. Earned?

Yeah. For in his time. Yeah. The world has moved on. But now, speaking of moving on, you know, that is why I reclaim my Spanish heritage because because as a fan of Pedro Poro, who of course is played right back for my beloved Spurs since 2022, I want him to succeed. Is that in your notes app? No, that's just in my brain app. Yeah.

That's something I've known for, I want to say, days, maybe hours. Yeah. And it just feels good to be at least rooting for one of my guys, you know, in the final. I'm picking Spain for the final. Even though, I believe, McAllister plays for Liverpool, right? That's okay. Victor Munoz, a winger that Liverpool just bought is a Spanish player. I know. Tell the camera.

I know. Thank you to kind. Hi, Kaya, and Sarah, for recording us, producing us, filming us today. Making us look good. Making us look great. And we'll be back on Monday. Hot D. Sure.

What else? Maybe you'll have seen The Odyssey. Who knows? I would like to. But IMAX tickets, hard to get. Just, I have a phone bootleg. You can just check out. If I watch The Odyssey on Iraqgoals.com this weekend on my phone.

Dot net. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Well, I just really blew up that other website. I'm sure it's going to be. Fine. Good luck to your Brasser. You guys have a great weekend.