The Watch - The Best Television Shows of 2018 With Sam Esmail | The Watch (Ep. 314)

Episode Date: December 13, 2018

‘Homecoming’ and ‘Mr. Robot’ creator Sam Esmail joins to give his picks for the best television shows of the year (9:03), talk about what he was looking for in TV this year (45:49), and his favorite performances of 2018 (72:53). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sam Esmail Check out The Ringer’s list of best television shows of 2018 here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Brilliant Earth. Brilliant Earth is the global leader in ethically sourced fine jewelry and the destination for creating your own custom engagement ring. Choose from a variety of beyond conflict-free diamonds and other fine jewelry crafted from recycled precious metals at BrilliantEarth.com. From now until December 14th, you will receive a complimentary pair of diamond studs with the purchase of an engagement ring. To see terms for this special offer and to shop all of Brilliant Earth's selection. collections, go to brilliantearth.com slash watch. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by If Beal Street could talk. If Bill Street could talk is above all else a love story from Barry Jenkins, the writer and

director of the Oscar winning Moonlight. It comes a soulful drama about the power of love based on James Baldwin's acclaimed novel of the same name. This moving story embraces the triumph of love and family. See if Beale Street could talk in select theaters December 14th. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, it's the most wonderful time of the year. It's Andy Greenwald and Sam Espo. Guys, what has happened to this place? What is going on? So Sam hasn't been here in a year.

Why, you think this is worse digs than what we had before? I mean, isn't it? I mean, it's more intimate. It's more, you could use that word, intimate. From what I understand, the Ringer Podcast Network is a thriving and growing business. You can see you behind you, there's posters for all sorts of non-watch podcasts. And much like Stephen Root's character and office space, we still work here. We're just moving into a succession of smaller and smaller offices.

I mean, I'm sitting at a cubicle right now. But at least we're sharing a cubicle. Guys, it's the annual year-in-TV podcast with Sam S-Mail. Sam, this is the third one? Is it the third? I think so. Wow. One in the studio here, one in your office.

Yes. This is the third one. This is not your third appearance. It's just that after the first few appearances. It's the third end of the year. Yeah. You insisted on being part of this conversation. Yes.

I think it was needed. I think honest, if I'm being, can I be honest with you guys? I think I needed to. Because Sam is not just... Insert my opinion. You're not just a guest. You're also the podcast self-appointed on Budzman.

Right. You're the public editor. Absolutely, absolutely. You take issue with what we do. The cop controller too, yeah. And this has been a, it's been a big year in television. It has, and I actually wanted to talk about that, because this is the conversation I wanted to have just before we kick things off,

which is how many returning shows do you have on your list? Good question. Because we each, we should set this up. We each have our top ten list in front of us. I have them. I have two. One, two. Which I think is interesting.

I got four. I have four. Wow, Andy. Okay. You're sticking with the ones you love. I'm loyal. I just wonder, don't you think years ago that number would have been the majority? Yes.

Well, one thing is that TV shows, even serialized ones season to season, have been decoupled from the tradition to the past and that you could take a year off, right? So there could be a show that would have been on it, but maybe it's not returning, Game of Thrones or Stranger Things or whatever. They did not air this year, so they're not on the list. There's another show about a robot or something that also took a year off. Mad and Robot. Madam Robot, I believe. So I think that's part of it. But I also think that without question, we are in an era of culture in general that definitely

prioritizes the new and the flashy. And our engagement with TV has become more like our engagement maybe with the movies. We're like the flashy thing that's out and everyone checks it out right away and then we move on. Yeah. And there is a weird thing because I felt like as I was making the list, there was a weird bias to shows that I would like that have come back, that I, for whatever reason, because they're returning, they're not as exciting as the newer shows.

And I don't, you know, and I don't know if that's going to be a trend because the other thing that I'm starting to see with the, like ongoing series, is they're not going for the distance necessarily anymore. They're going for limited number of seasons. They're piecing out after four seasons, for example. Yeah, yes.

Just hypothetically. Okay, fine. This is all about me, right? It sounds like to justify my decision here. Well, I think that we should get into it in the conversation because we, I think we have. ask another question. Just before we kick it off, do you guys feel like this is a strong year?

No. I don't either. I struggle. I think especially not given the amount that was out. You know, you think, you know, I think that if you told me, I have a very long list, but when it really got to, like, is this a top 10 show? Is this like one of the best shows of the year? Is this a show I'd put up against other past top 10 shows? I was like, not really.

It's pretty good. There's a lot of pretty good. And we've talked about that a lot this year. I think once you get past four or five on my list, I think that it's kind of pick them. I think these are things that I liked. And in general, looking over the year in television for me, it was a lot like looking over the year in music, for example. We're not going to talk about music on this podcast, I promise.

But in the sense that there are a lot of shows on my list and even on like an extended list that I felt are almost, it's almost too easy that I put them on the list. These are shows that are made almost in a lab for me. me or for Chris. We were in this hyper niche era of television where there's things, you know, we'll talk about this, like I'm sure, like Little Drummer Girl, which Chris and I adore, that I don't know if that would be up on a list against the great shows of the last decade. I just think it's exceptional because it ticks every box that matters to me. And I'll also add, I've got to be honest, I struggled getting a top 10.

And there were a lot of shows that I really liked, but I didn't think it would crack the top 10. So there are two shows actually that are on here that I just, I haven't seen the entire season. There's that part of it too, yeah. Because it's so late in the game. I think that's actually okay. And I do think maybe there is, because this happened last year. You know, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel would have been on my list. Yes.

Had I seen it, you know, when we did top ten. And by the way, the second season is coming out a couple weeks. December 5th, I think. Next week. Yeah, and just so I think we should make sense. Same thing with dark. We're recording this at the end of November, but we'll probably release this in the first week at December. And I want to say, again, we can talk about this as we're going through our list.

It's on my list. I'm holding a spot for it because the first season. No, no. There were two or three that fell off, but I'm like, look, the first season of Mrs. Maisel is so good. So good. So incredible. I would love to just watch it again. It would fill me with joy that I'm willing to bet that the second season is stronger from the beginning to end than Lodge 49.

Sure. And so I'm holding a place for it. And if I'm proved wrong, we air this podcast, the season has begun. Amazon or I've been dumped on Amazon and it's fall short, I will Mia Culpa on a later podcast. But we are caught in this weird space and we should talk about that as well. Dark.

All three of us. Which is totally would have been on my list. Yes. We missed it last year. It came on. It came literally. It was Christmas weekend. It was yeah. It was literally, I think, the last weekend of the year. To me, and I don't know how we caveat this. I don't know if we put an asterisk. I think it's just

best information available plus a couple of the caveats are your saving a spot for Maisel. I did. And neither of us put homecoming on our list out of respect to journalists dick integrity. Friends and family. Yes. Because there's one thing this podcast vis-a-vis my relationship to Sam has been adamant about it. We've never been compromised ethically. No. No. Okay. Wait, last thing I just want to say about Dark before we get into it, I think you're asking about, was it a strong year or a week year? What I missed most this year, if I'm being honest, especially when I was considering it for this list, it was. It was

in Game of Thrones, which we know is coming back in four or five months and it's going to be epic and huge and unprecedented. Actually, it was dark. Not just the show itself, which I loved, but I missed being that surprised and caught off guard by something that I was truly impressed by and was just so purely entertaining. Again, when we get through the list, you'll see that pretty much everything I chose, these are things that are either that I've liked before or that are tailor made to me. Yeah. And dark was a real delight. And I'm sure there are other darks out there, possibly even on Netflix, that we haven't uncovered yet. I remember at the end of the last year, Sam, you went crazy for that Brazilian show. 3% or whatever the percent was. There's a couple of things hiding in the foreign language section that maybe we've missed,

and people will, I'm sure, tweeted us. But that sensation is absent from my list. I agree. So here's how we're going to do it. We're going to go through our list. We'll start at 10. What we'll do is every time we talk about it, like a show gets announced for the first time, that's when we'll talk about it.

Okay. And then that way, once they show up again later on. And if you have a show and it gets named, just mention, oh, this is my third show or whatever. So, Sam, you're the guest. And the host. And the ombudsman, number 10. So number 10 for me is Barry. Okay. Barry's on all of our lists.

Barry's at six for me. Barry is at eight for me. Okay. I mean, I really love the show, but I think primarily the thing that really, really grabbed me was Bill Hader's performance. And by the way, his directing, right? Didn't he directed? Yeah. He directed a bunch of it.

I just thought it was incredibly specific. and the character, I mean, the tone was just such a tightrope. And sometimes it lost me a little bit when it got too broad, when the comedy got a little too broad. But for the most part, I think his characterization of Barry, it was just so interesting, fascinating. And it kept me watching. So a lot of the directorial choices were great, too. And especially also all the directors outside of Bill Hader, Hero Marai. Really, really, really, really good show.

Well, I have a question about that to turn it back to you. I agree. I thought there were moments of that show that I didn't totally love, but I was so impressed by it, even when I wasn't in love with it, by its risk-taking and its boldness and its commitment to the bit that it was doing, and it didn't shy away from it, even though it gobbled up plot at an insane pace and left us in what appears to be like an almost untenable situation for a future season. But what I wanted to ask you was about that idea of specificity of direction and of artistic choices and tone.

Because Chris and I talk about that a lot in things that we like. obviously that was something we talked about a lot when we were talking about your work on homecoming. As a director, what does that mean to you? When you see a show like Barry, what causes you to say, I appreciate the specificity of his directorial vision? It's all about committing to something incredibly specific and not going general, making very specific choices that are going to stand out at the risk of being pretentious, at the risk of calling attention to itself, or being self-conscious. And Barry did that a lot of times, but because you could tell that they had that kind of, or I guess Bill had that kind of specific vision in his head, you could tell it felt authentic. There was something really backing it up. And I mean, and they never let go.

Even until the very end, I mean, how dark is this show for a comedy? Yeah. And the way and the commitment just, I'm not going to spoil it, but the commitment lasted to the very end of the series of the season. And I just thought that that was really bold and refreshing. Yeah, you also have to consider the fact that most of the times something that's like a vanity project, it positions the person who is the object of the vanity, whose dream it is to make this,

so Bill Hater's writing and directing and starring this thing, he gives a lot of the best bits, a lot of the best comedy moments to Henry Winkler. He puts his character in a position where he is, we as an audience may like Bill Hater, but we're like, do I want to go along with this guy as he continues to go darker and darker. I think it's also really confrontational about our kind of romanticization of not only violence, but like hitmen in particular who have been, you know, like obviously an object of real obsession for movies and TV and books over the last hundred years.

To be like, well, what is really this job really, this is what this person would be like. You know, it wouldn't be like John Cusack and Gross Point Blank where he has like a moral compass that's always pointing the right way. It wasn't cute at all. No. It was actually, but it was a half-hour comic. I mean, that was the weird thing about the show, is that it could have just been this funny, you know, bit that they played every week, like a gross point blank, which, by the way. Great movie. Great movie.

Yeah. I love that movie. But it actually, they backed it up with a lot of depth and a lot of. No, it didn't have a lot of irony. No. One of the things that I think you always have to police against in a television show in general, particularly in comedies, is the fact that people, fall in love with characters, and that's what makes people return week after week. You can celebrate that in wonderful ways, and there's a laundry list of shows, maybe even on our list that we'll

talk about how they successfully do that. But there's also a trap, because if you are as in love with your characters and in comfortable situations as the audiences, the show can sort of flatten out. And I think that that speaks to why a show that I admire and love a lot like The Good Place is not on my list this year, because so far through this season, I've felt the show is desire to be nice is so nice that I'm not enjoying it as much because I don't see any edges anymore. Not that that was ever an edgy show, but it's tipped, the balance has tipped a little too much in terms of comfort as opposed to challenge or momentum. What's your number 10? Last point before you do that, Sarah Goldberg is incredible on the show and Henry Winklish performance is so good.

Yeah, go check out our interview with Henry. He's a close personal friend of both of us. It's just to say that there are so many. You're like three quarters of Los Angeles is like, let me say you by my close personal friend. Yes, because he's really that nice. He's really good. But I just want to say that, like, there are, and I'm sure Sam can speak to this too, there are so many good actors. There really are a lot of really talented, really good actors, and when you give them this

opportunity, like Henry Winkler, obviously, has had many opportunities in a long career, but he did the shit out of this role, right? And he's not, it's not that he's better than he was 10 years ago, it's just the opportunity in the part, and when it clicks, it's pretty exciting to see. My number 10 is a show that I've not. finished because it just started. Deutsche Land 86. People may remember from I think three years ago,

I wrote about it for Grantland at the end of the website and talked about on the podcast. Deutsche Land 83 was a really terrific series, German language original show aired on Sundance. It was vibrant and funny and weird and kind of like a pop music version of the Americans, Sam's favorite show. And this is the sequel series set three years later,

filmed in South Africa, set in South Africa and Angola with a lot of the same cast. Oh, wow. First of all, I love the way the Winger's, Yorg and Anna Winger, the married couple that make the show. I love the way they make TV. Which one do you like more Yorg? No, Anna, I think.

Okay, actually. No, when the Times reviewed it, I was very impressed. They referred to them as a wife and husband creating team. It's breaking little ground there. What is this? What network is this show? This is on Sundance. I think it was a co-production with Amazon,

so I think it will show up there. Did you, have you seen this? I watched the first series. I didn't see this one. It just showed up. A week ago. So British of you, Chris. I watched the first series.

Did he say serious? I just got back. You did just get back. Oh, my God. He needs it to go take a nap of his flat. It's pretty thrilling and it's a really interesting, it just has such an interesting both aesthetic perspective because it's really brilliantly directed, really pop visually, but such an interesting cultural perspective about an era that we think we know what it was,

the Cold War, but this is from a German perspective and specifically this season about the proxy wars that occurred. in Africa. It's a great use of, they were given a chance to do another series and they expanded the canvas. I'm really enjoying it. That's really cool. My number 10 is the haunting of Hillhouse, which is on my list. Good. And we can talk about that now, but like I think that one thing that I started to feel a little bit this year, oh good, we can just talk about that, was a little bit of sameness with TV, where I felt like partially because we were starting so many new series, we were often starting at the beginning, often have it, so often the first few episodes of a lot of shows.

have some of the same beats where they're introducing characters and storylines and stuff like that, which I was like, man, it does feel like a lot of TV looks the same, and a lot of TV has sort of settled in to the same pitch in terms of performances. And this doesn't feel like anything on television. The performances are very mannered and very, like, off in a way that you're like really drawn to them. You're like, wait, why is everybody acting like this? And is this taking place in contemporary Los Angeles, but it's constantly raining and it's always night.

And there's a lot of different things going on. Obviously, if people don't know about it, it's a season-long horror story told by Mike Flanagan, who directed Ouija II and Hush and Gerald's Game is probably my favorite horror director working right now. And it tells the story of this family living, who grew up in this, I mean, obviously haunted house in New England, and then basically all the trauma that they experienced in that house,

how that kind of impacted them going forward in their lives. Sam, why did you love the show? I have to second love what you just said, especially because I know you're a fan of horror. I'm a fan of horror. But this was done in such an elevated way. It was really smart because it was actually more about family and trauma. And then the horror elements sort of sneak in when it was in those sort of more dramatic moments, then all of a sudden it would mix in the genre really well. But the one thing that I think just landed for me the most about this show is to directing.

Talk about being specific. I mean, right down to the performances. Yeah. I mean, he just really embraced a certain vision, a certain tone, and he really, at every frame, every line of dialogue, the way it was performed, it was all considered in this really specific way. It was really good. Really singular.

Yeah, and it features one of the virtuoso directing episodes of the year where it's essentially shot like a play. It's in a funeral home. The whole family is kind of gathered for a funeral. And he shoots it in a series of, I think that it's supposed to be one long take the entire episode, but he obviously is like... How pretentious.

Yeah, I know. Seriously. Gee. Sam, so that was your number nine. That was number nine, number nine. You got to go. My number nine is Forever on Amazon. That's, God, we're so close.

Is that on your list? Yeah. I think we're going to have a lot of the same one. So why did you like Forever so much? That's my number eight. Forever was the show from Alan Yang, who did Master of Nunn with Aziz Ansari, and this time he worked with Matt Hubbard, who had worked on 30 Rock.

It stars Maya Rudolph and Fred Armisen. I was really surprised and delighted by this show. They did a great job of hiding the balls in terms of what it's really about, so there's no real reason to spoil it here. Just know that it is a very well-designed show for the streaming and binging era. The first two episodes are very distinct and very enjoyable

and don't necessarily tip their hand as to what you're in for in the following. I really like an admire Master of None and I think some episodes have been truly brilliant but the one thing that sort of kept me back a little bit from the show has been a disbelief of the emotional life of the show.

It's a little chilly to me often and I think sometimes the episodes I found impressive but not moving and for whatever reason this show took that same aesthetic I think it's a beautiful looking show shot in anamorphic I believe as Sam told me

when I was trying to understand what anamorphic meant when you were shooting anamorphic It looks great. I mean, it's so annoying when Andy's, you know, on set saying, what are these black bars at the top and bottom? Do you guys know there's different lenses? What?

Side story, Sam was very kind on a Sunday before we shot to have a 50-minute conversation with me, explaining ratios and aspect ratios and what things meant and what it looked like and what it would mean. So, Andy, there's a screen. And then at the end of it, at the end of 50 minutes, I was like, thank you for this. I really appreciate it. You're such a good mentor. This is what we're going to do. We're going to go for it.

And he says, I should say, I would never use it. I don't know what the time is. But we did. Anyway, I just, it's a really surprising, funny meditation on long-term relationships and what that might mean. And I think that the key to the show is also understanding the talent of its leads. Maya Rudolph is rightfully adored by American culture, but I think this is her finest performance in many ways because it's a quieter performance. And they also understand that Fred Armisen is best as a supporting player. And I mean that genuinely. I think he's wonderful in this role.

it was a really surprising and sweet show that I watched really quickly. I did, yeah. You didn't like it. I think I liked the first half of it better than the second half. There's something about it that made it personally I felt like it was like

happening inside of TV. Like it didn't really feel that resonant to me or related to re, I mean obviously it's not related to, I don't want it to, it's hard to talk about without giving away what the show's about, but the second half of the show I think kind of lost me a little bit emotionally. It's because Chris is really into short-term relationships.

I'm going to keep it moving. What did you think? That's why I have so many of the podcast. It's true. Number nine. Oh, wait, did you have any thoughts on Forever? No, I'll just kind of, I second everything you said. And also, I've got to say, I'm a huge Fred Armisen fan.

I'm a huge, huge, huge, my Rudolph fan. But I really love Fred Armisen, and I was a huge fan of Portlandia. And I do think he, you know, he's got some, I mean, here, there's some real chops there. There's some real dramatic heft that he brought to the part. And that's a large testament to the writing and directing as well. But I just really enjoyed the two of them. And they really enjoyed spending time. I mean, I think I binged it basically in two sittings.

Yeah, I didn't. I don't binge, but I binged that way. So number nine, that was forever for you. My number nine. My number nine is Narcos Mexico. Here we go. Yeah. I mean, I've talked about this.

I've showed pretty recently, so I won't get too fully into it, especially since I think. God, you really, have you seen every season? Yeah. And you really? Yeah, I think the first two seasons, I would say, I didn't enjoy, like, ironically or anything, but it was more like background. Like, I was kind of like, oh, this is like a really good, like, thriller, you know? And it's kind of interesting to see how they're telling it.

And then the last two seasons, I think the third was a huge step. It's kind of like a spy thriller. And then this one, I think, is legitimately great. I think Diego Luna gives, like, absolutely awesome performance as Felix Gallardo. And I had Eric Newman come in a couple weeks ago to talk about the season, and he had mentioned that they really. they really were trying to use Costa Garvis as a visual palette, like as a visual template for how they were shooting this season. And I think it just, you can really see where the money goes, man. Like you can really see that like...

This is obviously set in Mexico, but is it, did they just go all over? They shot, yeah, they shot in Mexico, and they shot all over Mexico. And there's a couple of standout episodes. So if you guys, if you were ever on the fence about Narcos, this would be a great place to start. Because, you know, while there are some references to past seasons, you can just kind of get right. into it and I just thought that they did a remarkable job at the seasons. This is an example of what I'm talking about because this is a show that I really

had a great time watching the first season and for whatever reason and maybe it's because of the anthology nature of it although the second season was actually a continuation. Yeah, first two are continuations and then the third is still in Columbia but it is a different story. But I just never, for whatever reason, never went back

to it and I don't know why. I think that that is going to, I think that I would be curious to know anecdotally how often that happens with Netflix shows. Do you know a lot of people that keep talking about, the do talk about narcos specifically? I think this is an interesting it's an interesting test case because for me the reason I didn't go back to it is

well two things. One, just it looked beautiful and it was well done but narratively I thought it was Wikipedia of the series in that it was just Boyd Holbrook telling us things that happened and then showing us the things that happened. I think this is definitely more interesting to me because not just the stylistic references Chris is saying that the show embraced but the cast

Mi Diego Luna is a terrific actor but also I have a little bit of Escobar fatigue. That is a story Those are characters that are recreated often in culture. And something about moving the show to Mexico, which is a more recent, I mean, with more recent history, a more pressing issue, a country that I'm more interested in. I just think it's a chance to start over, which is probably why, as Chris continues to insist, despite Netflix, he's not getting any paycheck from this. But he insists, this is not Narcos season four. This is Narcos, colon, Mexico.

Right. So I'll be clear. All right. Forever Narcos, yours was. Well, what number of? What was your nine? My nine was haunting of Hill House. Okay, so what's your eight?

My eight is forever. So we're eight seven. What's your eight? Barry. We're doing great, guys. My eight is the good fight. Oh, wow. Yeah.

A good fight. Great, great job. Wait, wait. I literally do not know if I know. Good fight is the spin-off show of the Good Wife. Oh, right, right, right. It's on CBS All Access. Okay.

I think it's... Do you have CBS All Access? I do. Because I also get it for... This is a TMI, maybe. But I like to watch Survivor in bed. What is Survivor in bed? That's a CBS show.

It's actually... You know how there's that Peter Berg movie Lone Survivor? So it's about that guy, but he's just in bed now. He's just fucking. No. No, I like to watch the reality show Survivor. Before I go to bed, in bed, my wife and I, we watch on Wednesday next. And there's no way you could do this without a subscription service that also gets you Star Trek episodes.

I also get the good friend. There's something else missing here. We'll figure it out. Go on. So I just would say that this is the best Trump show out. Like there's not a lot of shows that have tried to deal with Trump explicitly or subtly. This show actually takes it head on and is about the fever dream of the last two years. So much so that this season is about Diane Larkart, played by our patron saint, Christine Branski.

She's great. She's a great job. She's microdosing psilocybin and having visions of Trump. And is in also her character. is being persecuted by the Trump administration is being like... I'm sorry, this is a television show that you have to pay to watch in bed

about Christine Beranski microdosey LSD. I'm serious. Wow. Wait, can you... This podcast is... So I know... She stars as this woman Diane LaCard. So it's a psychedelic drug. She had been at the law firm with Julianna Margoley's character in the good fight.

Is the tone similar to the good... Slightly different. I think it's a little bit... So it also is... Diane LaRour has left this firm that she was, she had just sort of was a partner at, and joined this predominantly black firm in Chicago. And it changes all sorts of things about like the kinds of cases that she's working on a lot of police brutality cases, a lot of corruption cases. And then as this firm is sort of gaining a higher, bigger and bigger reputation, they come under the glare of the Attorney General's office and start getting into fights with the Trump administration. But it explicitly,

it's about Trump. It's not like there's a president that everybody's. scared. It's like the Trump administration is doing this. There's work with the DNC. There's stuff about the pee tape. There's stuff about all this. So it's probably one of the most witty, elegantly written shows on TV. And I'd highly recommend it. Have you seen this Andy? Well, no, he doesn't have CBS all access.

Because he just watches Survivor in his living room. Never seen an episode of Survivor. Okay, so Good Fight is 8. Sam, what's your 7? My 7 is better call Saul. Mine too. One of the only... Is yours number 7? Five. Okay. But we've talked about Saul forever, so you do it.

You tell us why Saul's going. Here's my take on Saul. The craftsmanship is at a level that's unparalleled. You guys have probably said the same thing. The directing, the writing, the performances, it's just A pluses all around. I personally could not care less about the story. And that is the tension that I have with the show. I watch it every week.

I'm completely marveled by what they can pull off, what they can do. And I don't know if I care that much. about the story. And I don't know why. And I think it's a subjective thing, but I give them a lot of credit for the craft. I mean, for me to not really be that engaged with the story, but yet still be obsessed to watch an episode every week. I mean, that's pretty amazing. And obviously, I'm in the minority because I think it's like a huge, obviously a huge success. I think it's also an interesting example of a show that's still on a cable network and has like a weekly following, but is every year I think it balloons because people are binging it on Netflix.

Absolutely. It's following that model that I think Mad Men and Breaking Bad used so well, which is you basically, in the off season, that's where you get your following. And then you come back with a season that kind of satisfies millions of people who are like, I've just watched four seasons of this over the weekend. And I think Better Callsaltz is well served by that. I mean, we talked about it this year that we both missed season three until it hit Netflix and we're able to watch it in a way that sort of allows you to fall into its rhythm.

Because if you're watching it week to week and it's like, well, the Germans dug a hole, Well, the Germans knocked down part of the hole. Yeah, Kim put some post-its on a window. What are we watching? When you see the totality of it, it's more thrilling. And maybe that's the way I should be. Because I do watch it week to week. And so I do watch a whole episode where at the end I'm like, oh, okay, so they dug a hole.

Or Mike became a security guy at the company for some reason. And I don't care about that. But it's done so well, I care about that. There's a moment this season that we won't spoil it. it doesn't really matter, but there's, Mike is trying to lose someone who's tailing him. Right. And so what do you do?

And this struck me as a moment that is so, I just find it so thrilling as someone who's been in writers' rooms and hopes to be in them again. Like, okay, so you know you want someone to lose a tail. So start pitching. What's your way out of this? What's the most creative way out of it? Because they've all been done.

Right. And on Better Call Saul, it involves Mike chewing six pieces of gum and like making a fake gummy security card in a parking lot to gum up the parking machine. after he exits. Yeah. I love stuff like that.

The thought behind every single thing is what really elevates the show. Side note, I wonder if the show will be better served, if this is a workable model. If you guys notice that AMC is offering, and I don't think they do it for Saul, but they did do it for Lodge 49. Or they're putting the series up on... AMC Plus or whatever. And you can watch the whole. So AMC is offering like an over-the-top additional service. It's not even that.

It's... I have... You have to pay for it, obviously. You pay $499 on top of your cable subscription to unlock their app where you can watch all their shows without commercials, and in some cases, watch the whole season from the day that this show. The first episode. Exactly. So they're trying to strike a balance between the pay cables and the streamers.

It's interesting to watch. Okay, so let's reset for a second. That was your number seven. And my number seven, and it's nine number five. So my number seven was Howard's end. Totally missed it. Wish I hadn't. The only thing I'm going to say here is that...

Were you a big merchant ivory? My father was. So, and I actually... His dad, the film critic for the Philadelphia Inquirer, was thrown out those four stars for Merchant Ivory films as a kid. And I actually think contributed a little bit to some of my like, fuck that I like Repo Man part of it is because my dad would come home and be like, what tripe?

And I would be like, I want to watch that because I don't want to watch Remains of the Day again. You know what I mean? Like, and now in retrospect, I go back and see some of those merchant ivory movies and you're like, Jesus, those are incredible. Can I just quickly say something because I don't like costume dramas. I don't like costume dramas. And I remember back in the day when I was young and I was trying to get into like, well, what is a good film? Because when I was a kid, I just loved what I liked.

Like, you know, Repo Man, obviously, it was definitely on my list, Back to the Future. A bunch of other stuff, Groundhog Day. And so I would watch because every merchant, I mean, those string of Merchant Ivory films were always nominated for Best Picture, or always nominated for all the, you know. So I'd watch them and I just, I thought, oh. Oh, maybe I can't be a filmmaker, because I don't, not only do I not like this, I don't even understand the value of why would you, why would anybody like this at all? At all.

Then last night, I saw the favorite. Last night. I saw it last night. The New Yorkos. Yes. Have you guys seen it? I was going to see it. It is amazing.

Yeah, I can't wait to see it. It is amazing. And I'm a huge Jorgas fan, but I was going in very skeptical because it's obviously takes off all the boxes. You don't like bodices. No corsets. Oh my God. It's so, it's so. subversive. I think he's kind of

trolling period dramas. You got to check it out. Anyway, so there's my stuff. I would just say Howard's End, if I, if, maybe you're not into corsets, but are you into Kenneth Lauderdin? I love Kenneth Leonardon. Right. Oh, is this his show? Yeah. Oh my God. Well, I'm in. The only thing I would say, and we'll probably have this discussion a couple more times, so we don't have to have it

now is, I would hear the argument that this is it's weird to say. I'm not going to like this, you know me. It's really, really good. It's really good. Howard End is, you saw it? No, but the book. It's Haley at well. great. The first movie is great. It's great source material. Yeah, it's phenomenal.

And it's, you know, if you don't know, it's basically a turn of the century, England, and it's about class, and it's about, you know, the difficulties. Were you big Downton Abbey fan? First season, I liked a lot. This podcast began. Talking about Downton Abbey fan account. Okay, so Howard's in is my seven. What's your six? It's me again. End of the fucking world.

Okay, good. I'm glad somebody put that on there. Yeah, that's like 11 for me. That was on my last. That was on my long list. Yeah. I love the runtime. That was like 21 minutes, right? Let's talk about that for a second.

We haven't even talked about Homecoming being, you know, a half hour drama, essentially. When did you sort of realize that, like, that was something that you wanted to do? And what is it about end of the fucking world that kind of did that? It may not inspire it, but what are you responding to it? No, we were already in production when that show came out. But I, I, what inspired it was the podcast was half an hour. and there was this weird automatic. I remember when we were developing it,

there was this weird automatic, okay, so it's going to be an hour-long drama, and it's going to be 50 minutes, and so how do we extend and expand the story? I'm like, whoa, ho, ho, ho. Why are we doing that? That makes no sense. It served the story so well

in the podcast format to keep it a half hour. Plus, I really wanted to keep those therapy sessions intact. And I thought, if you started extending that out to an hour, I think you're going to wear people out. So I just, and it was just, to me, it just never occurred to me that dramas had to be in a half hour. Because in fact, there was a show that I referenced a lot when I talked about Homecoming was in treatment. Did you guys ever see that show? I did, you.

I loved that show. And it was a half-hour drama. And again, I don't even remember that being like a groundbreaking, necessarily a groundbreaking thing. But I think nowadays with TV evolving so rapidly, it's like, who cares if one episode's, and in the case of end of the fucking world, isn't an episode like, I think there was one episode, it was like 18 minutes. Yeah, and then the maniac did that too, where there's a couple of maniacs that are like 32 minutes and then there's a couple of hours. I just love that the runtime can just be dictated by the story,

and there's no arbitrary rule to hit anymore. Because we are absolutely coming out of a period where you can tell shows that shouldn't have been an hour or shouldn't be 13 episodes. Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, I don't want to dunk on them like everyone else has, but some of those Marvel shows on Netflix probably bore the brunt of it, where Jessica Jones had a great performance, great writing,

great idea, great everything, but I don't think there's 26 hours of story there necessarily. And similarly with Luke Cage, it's exciting for TV if the vessel can be malleable to match what's inside of it. Yeah, I mean, even when we made the decision to end Mr. Robot, one of the things that I did after we wrapped the third season

and went into the writer's room for the fourth season, I said, look, because we knew where the ending was, I was like, let's just figure out how many episodes it takes to get from where we're at to the ending. Let's not add any kind of fluff in between. Let's just tell the story we want to tell. And I think a lot of times we miss that point. And you'll, you know, like in the writer's room,

it's a lot of times it's like, okay, well, how can we do this this week? It's almost like there's an incentive to just keep dragging things out. I think a lot of shows also just, there's two kinds of things. I mean, like, I'm sure, I think Mr. Robot fans would probably be fans of the story. of Mr. Robot. Then there's other shows where people just become fans of characters

and become, and they just want those characters in their lives. Like, I would argue, say something like Veronica Mars is something that you would just want to spend time

with those people in that world. And that's why those shows, I think, get rebooted, get continued, you know, not past their usefulness, but that's why there's such a... You're talking about,

like, procedurals. But there's like... Even, like, Grey's Anatomy, or... I don't even know, like, I just was thinking about this a lot recently with the amount of stuff

the people are rebooting and bringing back, like Northern Exposures coming back. And I think a lot of that stuff is like, oh, yeah, like, you know, people have like real deep attachments to a certain character. I think you could consider the creation of the term sit drama, right? Like, there's sit dramas and there's story dramas. The idea of a sit drama being a situational drama

where, much like Cheers, you just want to hang out in the bar. There are dramas, you know, and I would even consider Mad Men, could be considered this way too, where it's like, you just want to be with these people in their office as history happens around them, you know, slinging banter. between each other.

It's pleasant to be there. But I also want every episode to feel relevant. Yeah, and feel like, oh, I cannot miss this. There are a lot of shows out there that you can miss five episodes and jump in. And I don't get that. I personally don't understand that. It's funny too, because when you make that turn for the home stretch is when I think that the scrutiny on your show changes a little bit. I think it happens to loss, I think it's happening in the Thrones, is that when you kind of announce that, like, hey, we're going to wrap it up soon,

people start watching the show in a different way because it's like... Every moment is not precious. Every moment is supposed to be going towards this one point rather than, oh, it's cool if you guys want to go fight a bear in the woods for two episodes and that doesn't actually matter to like who sits on the throne at the end.

Well, everything, the thing about TV now, especially is there's so many choices, people feel very strongly that everything should matter. If they're investing their time in it, it should matter. Because now you're saying there are shows where everything doesn't matter. You can come in, you can go out. Yes, there are.

And I think that's a different. use of television. Yeah, I guess I don't get that. That feels like you're just trying to distract me for a while every week. That was supposed to be television for like 50 years. By the way, let me just confess. I was not a huge fan of television growing up.

True. That's fascinating. But what's the most popular show on Netflix? It's friends. It's still friends. You know, that is still the way the majority of the people in the country watch TV where they think of TV,

the purpose TV serves for them. But what we're talking about, both on our list with a lot of new shows and about what we want from these things You know what I do a lot of? Two Americas, guys. I'll just cut to it. I watch Friends in bed.

So your favorite things are Survivor in bed and friends in bed? It's like a fortune cookie game. I know you're not supposed to have the laptop in bed, but it happens. Wow. Guys, you just find, you wake up, you feel like heat on your chest. Is there not a TV in the bedroom? No. No.

I mean, we could have one, but we were like, we don't want to make that step. But then, like, yeah, it's kind of easy to just to, like, watch a few minutes of Scrugs. Throw it in the side. Did you say Scruggs? Yeah, I like getting Buster Scrugs. Can I pitch NBC on Scruggs? It's Tom Waits working at a hospital. 21 minutes.

We should just say, end of the fucking world, a really fun, really fast binge. We both really liked it. We talked about a lot, the direction by Jonathan Nwistle and Lucy Truniac terrific. I think we did more podcasts about that show, like hours-wise than the actual show last. By the way, the actual show, if you watch it all in one sitting, shorter than the last Mission Impossible film in runtime. That's rewarding? I don't know. I mean, I just think it's interesting

because it literally, I mean, I know this is to the chagrin of a lot of critics out there, but it really does feel like you're watching. And I don't remember the episodic structure of End of the Fucking World because I did watch it all in one stretch. It's in January, yeah.

Yeah. But it just felt like this just, are they making a second season? They are, they just announced. I'm interested, I'm curious. Is Wolf Blitzer in End of the Fucking World? So that's the deciding thing for me. So wait, End of the fucking World

Your number what? Hold on. Six, I believe. Hold on. Yeah, six. So my number six is Barry. Your number six is... Glow.

Anybody else have glow? I do not. I love glow. I think it is consistently, consistently, not just entertaining, but truly impressive, the way they juggle in a large cast. Sanita is amazing. Mr. Robot alum. Sinita is terrific.

The cast is phenomenal. I think Allison Brie deserves being mentioned up there with any of the great performers on television. What did you think of the episode within an episode? Oh, where they did their episode. I thought it was terrific. There's an episode that sort of is meant to be an episode of the show they're making. It was hilarious. It was creative.

It was inspired. There is something that segues nicely from the previous conversation we just said. There is something kind of old-fashioned about this. This is an ensemble comedy that immediately and deftly makes you care about all of the characters and be excited to see them in these different interactions. But it's combined with a very modern twist, which is that it has this. big idea behind it of this wrestling show. And so you can literally explore conflict between characters by having them wrestle in a very meta way,

which I appreciate. I think the show keeps pushing forward both in terms of what it can accomplish as a half-hour TV show, as evidenced by the episode Sam mentioned, but also about very contemporary issues. I also have to say, because I know we're going to talk about another show later on, so I'm just going to... Here comes. Yeah. Well, I'm just going to say, Glow does not care that their characters are unlikable. you know

it it and it and it it's a it is a prologue it is a prolog and um

but I will say like I'm very compelled by all the characters even though yeah they're not afraid to let them make bad choices and I think that

just makes me like the characters even more but but because they're so you get to get inside their minds and you see that where their flaws are and you see that they're afraid or vulnerable about it

I don't know there's just something really compelling about that I think I think that I think the show is really instructive too in terms of how to make, you know, I'm looking at my list and I feel like it is not super inclusive list. I think the majority of the shows are made by and created by men. I think Glow, which is show run and was created by two women, shows a way forward for female-centric storytelling that these characters don't apologize for having a wide range of emotions. Their interactions are entirely within this group, and Mark Merritt, but entirely within this group of women in ways that are.

Very basic, very fundamental, not necessarily groundbreaking in terms of the content of their conversations and relationships. But honestly, unfortunately, groundbreaking for what we see on television. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the big homies at Sonos. Meet the Sonos Beam, the smart compact soundbar for your TV and the newest addition to the easy-to-use home sound system. I love my Sonos Beam. I've had it for a little while. And man, it really has just, to quote the Big Lubowski, it ties the room together. It basically brings sports to life. It feels like you're sitting courtside

when you're watching basketball. Or if you're watching movies or TV, it really like, especially for the bigger shows like Westworld, it just brings like a kind of like 3D vibrancy to the sound and it really brings the shows to life. Beam lets you play everything you love from music and radio to movies, TV, podcasts, and more. Even use Airplay to enjoy sound from your iPhone or iPad on Beam.

All with rich sound that fills the room. You can enjoy deep bass and detailed stereo separation for music. plus crystal clear dialogue for TV and movies. All it takes is one chord to connect Beam to your TV. The Sonos app walks you through setup step by step, and you get hands-free control with built-in Alexa. That way you can start a playlist, skip tracks, and pause simply by asking out loud.

Plus, when you connect your Sonos speakers over Wi-Fi, you can put speakers in different rooms and listen to two things at the same time. It's the best part about this whole thing. It's like you can be watching Die Hard in one room and NPR on the other. You live in the dream. You can also send sound from your TV everywhere, so you never miss a second of the actions.

If you're going to grab a snack, you can still hear the game you're watching really easily. Go to Sonos.com to learn more and order your Sonos beam to start your smart home sound system. That's Sonos, S-O-N-O-S-O-S-com. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Microsoft Surface. Let's talk about something super exciting. It's the newest member of the Microsoft Surface family,

the Surface Pro 6, now faster and more powerful than ever before, so you can get even more done, whether it's from your office at the airport or on your couch. Take the keyboard off and draw on it easily or snap it back on and type on it like a laptop with up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and the new 8th-gen Intel Core processor. You can work how you want to

for as long as you want to, wherever work takes you. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you backed by 24-7 protection. Explore the vast number of things you can do with your secure smart home, such as Doorman Service, which is an ADT automation that unlocks the door for packages,

friends or your kids or turn down service, an ADT automation that arms your system, locks your doors, and turns down your lights and thermostat. There's my favorite one, or free getaway service, which lets you arm your system, lock up, and set lighting schedules before you go on vacation. It's all controlled from the ADT app or the sound of your voice and backed by 24-7 protection, and do not worry about installing or configuring your system. ADT will DIY do it for you? Just visit ADT.com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design

and install a secure smart home just for you. So that was your number five. Six. That was number six. What was your number six? You did your. My number six is Barry. That was your number six.

My number five is better call Saul. What's your number five? Escape at the Nara. Yeah. Oh yeah. Let's get into it. That's a favorite of the watch podcast. Oh, yeah.

I mean, so this is a show. So I have a little asterisk because I've only seen two episodes. Holy shit. I think Ben Stiller directed the hell out of this. but the performances, Patricia Arquette, Benicio del Turr... Paul Dano is out of his mind in his show. Oh my God. Dano's got that like 70s Hoffman vibe in this show.

Swole Dano. I just love how it takes its time to establish the place. It does take the time. Are you, is that a criticism? See, this is what I mean. In the vein that I love the end of the fucking world for being really short and breezy. You just don't like jail. Who likes jail? Lots of people love watching shows in jail.

I think the show... When they are in themselves in jail? I'm sure they're very popular in there, but did you like the prison stuff in Night of? I thought Oz had its moments. I just thought the show needed that long running time. For me, there was a lot about the atmosphere that you couldn't have done.

And I think Ben Sillard is a phenomenal job. And whoever that cinematographer is... She's terrific. Oh, my God. She's amazing. and it just really had a sense of place and time. I just thought of it. I just think it's brilliant.

Actually, it partners well with what I was saying about Narcos, which is that this is an example of kind of where television production has gotten, where that just does not look like Atlanta or Clover. Not Atlanta, the show, but Atlanta, like a shot in Atlanta where, yeah. It's just like you shot that the shit out of it in upstate New York, and it looks like it's freezing and all the characters are freezing, and you can just tell. You could not, like, let me just, I, because you're,

being critical about the runtime, I'm looking at Andy, watch listeners, you could not do that in half hour segments. You could not do that in 40 minute episodes. No, that's right. I mean... But he doesn't even structure it like a television show at all. It's an interesting I think you can make the argument that this is almost a

nine and a half hour movie. Because it really does feel like even each episode picks up at the very... I think that's my criticism of it, which isn't really criticism. It's that I found it unwieldy. That's not even a necessarily negative thing. You know, Twin Peaks to return was unwieldy. and it was the best show of last year.

I really admired it, and I really like it, and the performances are on another show, on another galaxy. Come on. But, yeah, I guess I just, in terms of getting my arms around it, it didn't fit onto my list. But it would have been on my long list.

Okay, so that was your number five. Yep. Right. What's your number five? I'm holding five for Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. I assume it'll either climb or fall. Just to say, guys, the show's coming back. Don't sleep on it.

It's incredible. Rachel Bras and Hannah is up there with Alison Bres. And Brian Tyree is the best actors on television. So my number five is better call Saul. My number four was killing Eve. Okay. That's my number two. What about you, Sam?

Not on my list. Yeah, don't know. Wow. What are you missing out on here? Come on. I enjoyed killing Eve. I thought it was really funny and I don't know. Maybe you're the same criticism of escape.

I don't know. There was something, I don't know. It didn't. We should be more positive than forcing you to be negative. What do you mean? Yeah, yeah. Talk about killing Eve. Yeah.

I think that in the... By the way, who plays? plays the assassin? I mean, Sandra O's a brother. I mean, she's phenomenal. Holy shit.

I think Killing Eve is the success story of the year, but also the tightrope act of the year. The first three hours, which were the ones that clearly Phoebe Wallerbridge

was credited for as the writer and was clearly the most involved in are three of the best hours of TV of this year and could be held up against TV of any of the last five years, for sure. Then, as the season goes on,

I didn't love it any less, but it became more of a TV show. It definitely, you felt the break starting to go on a little bit as they realized or as they got excited about the cat and mouse game becoming a much longer cat and mouse game, which creates its own sets of risk. Now, Barry similarly set up, put itself in a position that felt untenable

and seemed ready to jump off the ledge, but in a different way, in that Barry sort of forced the issue at the end of the season, and now we don't know what we're waiting for. Next, when we join them. And killing Eve, it could come back, And it could be like, well, we've just missed each other again, Batman, and then it becomes a TV show. By the way, by the way, but a less successful.

In the same way that we talked about Barry, and actually to a positive extent, how Barry does not take the assassin trip just on a superficial level. This is another assassin show. This is another assassin show. But do you think it treated its assassin with that same? Because there were moments where that character, they were going to go there with her. but then it turns out she's lying or making fun. You know, she's pretending. And so then I never really got a beat on her.

And again, I admire the hell out of that performance. I mean, it is off the charts, brilliant. I just don't know if I ever got a beat as to what the human motivation going on there. They get into it sort of towards the back end of that first season. I think that Barry is a show that essentially uses the mechanics of improv comedy as a drama tool. So it's just like, and then what? And then what? And then what?

And it's like, keep pushing it and pushing it and pushing, yes, Anne, right? Killing Eve is just a story about obsession. I adored the show, but I think that it actually got to the logical conclusion of that story. Right. Where it's like, this is what happens when you're actually put in this absolutely insane situation with some of that you're obsessed with, but is actually quite dangerous. Well, it's also deeply, I think Phoebe Wallerbridge is much more interested in the politics of female friendship and to be a woman in the workplace and to be a woman in the world and to be a woman in relationships,

than she is necessarily in the geopolitical game of assassination. Right, they're adapted from a series of novels that are like, you know, more pulpy, I think, right? Yeah. So it's an example of what's great about TV in this era where you can have anuteur or creator follow his or her bliss and show us what interests him or her using the framework of a different sort of story. Where that goes once it becomes pushed into a tighter framework remains to be seen. So that was my four, Sam? Wait, by the way, was that your two, number two.

Yeah. Oh, I wonder what year one is now. Because I thought I knew what your number two is. What's your phone? My number four, little drummer girl. You too? Yes! That's my number four.

No, it's my number three. Whoa. I didn't know you watched it. Oh, my God. Over the weekend. It's incredible. I'm obsessed. I love Florence Pugh.

I think she's amazing. I mean, Michael Shannon. This is my favorite Michael Shannon performance. Can you just talk to us about Tancho work, though, man? First of all, that, oh, come on. this is a guy and I don't know how he directs but it just feels like

he knows what shot he's going to use for every moment in every scene you know what it reminded me of in that way it was like the Nick yes and it was like I have an idea an idea

for every single moment of this show not like coverage not hey what I'm going to do is this and then we'll get coverage it's like I know exactly what I'm doing this is the design of the room this is the way people are positioned in the room

from this line to this line we're going to do this with the camera, and then right after that line, we're going to do, it's just, it's so considered. Which, by the way, speaks to a director who not only has a visual sensibility, but a storytelling sensibility,

because there's clearly an understanding of where this line is going to play. I want to play this line on this character's face. I don't want to play this line on this character's face, which I think is probably more common with someone like you, Sam, who's a writer and director, you know how you want to portray each line.

I also want to say, and this is super post-making the pilot, but the production design on this show is out of control. Out of this world. It is so gorgeous. There's another thing though, which is really important is that this isn't something that

they had a script and then they brought in a cool director who was like, I'm going to just make this look really cool. Every shot, all these dizzying, vertigo-inducing shots that he does? No, I didn't. I almost did. They actually tie into the story.

It's all about losing yourself, in these multiple identities that happens in intelligence work that happens in espionage work. It's about all you see is these reflections of people. All you see is people behind glasses and they,

it totally plays up this very convoluted story. Can I ask about that? Because as I remember you giving me a shalacking for season to a Mr. Robot, as I'm watching Little Drummer Girl,

I'm Chris Ryan's voices in my head. You know, the North Star because that's all he kept asking me about for season two. I have no idea what I'm rooting for in the show. I don't know if I'm necessarily rooting for Michael Shan. I don't know what he's actually going after. And again, I'm only like three episodes in, but I'm just excited.

I don't know if I understand everything. And I think you actually talked about it. I've read the novel three times and there are still parts of it that I'm like, uh, wait, couldn't they've just done something different here? Like it's definitely this like it has a dreamlike quality. Yeah. It has a certain theatrical, like, what if we put on a production, a play? in the real world.

Right. But you're kind of like, who would see him? And the fact that Alexander Scarsgaard is playing a guy but that no one will see. He's not putting on, he's just talking her into this relationship.

I would just say that the second half of the season, that all comes back around. Okay. Yeah. I would also make an attempt, perhaps flimsy, to wrap my arms around a lot of what we're saying here, which is that three of the shows

that we've all talked about and that we all really liked, Barry, Killing Eve, and Little Drummer Girl, all play in the space of politics and violence as theater or as performance and the boundaries between them or the appeal of those things. And if I was still in the think piece business, which I'm not, there does seem to be something interesting to be taken here of like in a time when the world isn't making sense and we cannot really wrap our arms around what's happening politically because either we feel completely disenfranchised from it or it seems so insane and heightened. These shows, I think, are offering a way to kind of understand that disconnect, right? between violent acts and violent words, about the desire to be violent or not be violent.

I think I've had a little bit of a crisis this year, as I'm sure most people have with negotiating the fiction-like reality that we live in with fiction. You know what I mean? And sometimes you read things, especially by history, where you'll just be like, we watch all the president's men, and I'm just like, this is kind of a fable.

I don't know that nothing is going to come and save us here like this did. You know, and I think that this show, you're absolutely right. you watch and you're like, oh, yeah, like, this is, this is, this goes back historically way farther than we thought, and it also will affect us way into the future. Well, right, you could take, and this comes to play in, I believe in the third hour of Little Drummer Girl, where there's the argument between Charlie and, I think it's between Charlie and Gadi, and basically she's saying, you know, what happens when the people who are oppressed

become the oppressor, and she's trying to take a small segment, much like we do when we watch entertainment, we're like, that's the bad guy because we saw them do a bad thing. let's see the bad guy get punished. And you get a visceral thrill if they're doing the storytelling right, if you're being manipulated in a successful way. The problem is you pull the aperture out, you zoom out a little bit.

Oh, well, maybe there was a reason for that. Maybe there was a reason. You have to keep going back and back and back and back, and that's not satisfying. So it's essentially a very satisfying drama about something deeply unsatisfying and impossible. That's really impressive. So that was your number four.

That's my number three. Andy, what's your four? That was my number four. Okay, so my number three, Sam, What's yours? Maniac. Okay, great. Not on your list.

Not on your list, but close. Again, the directing and the choices were so specific. The world building. I mean, let's talk about world building because in a half-hour drama for 10 episodes. Is it 10? Was it 10 episodes? I just thought it was an incredible feat. And I personally, I know Jonah got a lot of criticism on his performance.

I loved his performance. I thought Emma Stone was brilliant. I thought the writing was great. I mean, it was, and I will say this, probably one of the most creative shows I've ever seen. It just took every opportunity to imagine something new, something different, something that I haven't seen. And, you know, obviously the premise lends itself to that, but I just, yeah, I had a great, I think I binged it, honestly, like in one sitting. I was obsessed with it. I'm glad we're talking about that show, because I still feel like there are two lessons to be learned from it, one good,

and one bad, and the bad lesson would be, let's make more high-priced TV shows that are put together as packages without any story and then see if things work out. They didn't do that. The story that I would pull out of the show is, okay, we have this opportunity. Let's go nuts. Let's try everything we can because of the advantages we're given that were being left alone because of these stars and because of Harry's stature and because of the package that got put together. So I'm truly impressed by that, and I hope that the right lesson is learned from it. So that was your number two, Sam? No, that was my number three. No, that was number three.

Do we have the same number three? Or yours was drummer girl. Yeah, mine's drummer. I think I know what's coming. Here it comes. Wait, this is your number three. Yes. Probably your number two.

That's his number one, probably. Oh, is it? Look his face. Oh, oh. Say the word. Should I wind up a little bit? First of all, you're looking at me like, I have something to be ashamed of it. This is the Roy gang.

Can I say you? It's succession. Succession is Andy's number three. You told me that it wasn't going to be here. That's fine. Did I? Yeah, you did. You did.

Wow. You stabbed him in the back. Just like, I don't think I said, it's in, I'm trying to decide. Interesting. Chris,

why don't you talk about succession? I know what you're number one, but I think it's time. All of, this whole podcast, I think one of the main things we've been talking about is direction. Right?

And I think it represents a major shift in the medium to be moving towards, towards like Sam, who are writing and directing a lot of their own stuff. Guys like Mike Flanagan who were writing and directing

a lot of their own stuff. Carrie Fuganogo, who directed Maniac. My most anticipated show of next year is Mind Hunter, which apparently Fincher and Andrew Dominic are splitting the direction. I mean, I can't even...

Every time a new show comes up, I'm like, who directed it? And that's not the case for Succession. Succession is basically a temple built to television writing. And I know that we'll probably get into whether or not everybody here at this table likes it as much as I do.

They're talking about me, guys. But consistently surprising, deeply, deeply affected by the characters, completely involved in this story of itself and I have not laughed harder since I think Jesse Armstrong's previous show the thick of it

at a television show to that last point I agree I laughed so hard when the show was funny I did not care when it was not and that was basically and going back to

unlikable characters because we brought that up with glow and there's plenty of other shows I mean, and just literally, let's just be explicit, a greedy evil capitalist, like probably the best evil capitalist character in all fiction, Daniel Plainview, in my opinion, there will be blood. I mean, you couldn't be more unlikable, but he was compelling. He was really good at what he did. And just when you thought you had a beat on him, he was able to connive and be even more underhanded than you thought. I just wasn't impressed with any of these characters.

Did I think the performances were outstanding? Absolutely. Did I think when it was being funny and satirical? Yes. And I should say my wife loved it. We've always been big fans of your life. My wife watched it every Sunday night the minute it came on the On Demand. But when it asked me to care, I found no reason to care.

or find the character interesting. And I still, to this day, I think, because, you know, Chris, Chris Andy and I actually talk quite a bit about this offline. Yeah. There's a chat, Fred. I still don't, I still don't hear the reason. There's a lot of things inside what you're saying. There's one, at one level, I don't think there's a way to litigate an emotional attachment to a television show.

You either have it or you don't. I didn't have one. I don't have one with glow. That's why it's not on my list. It's nothing against glow. It's just never a show that's clicked with me. So I understand that. if you're talking about the competence of the characters

I'm talking about are you rooting for Kendall no I don't need so when the show asks do you care for Kendall do you care about why why do you care about them

I just find his his especially his addiction story to be remarkably well drawn I think there's something to be to talk about here which is not every addict but that doesn't mean but that That's a different answer to my question.

Why do you care about Kendall? Because his addiction. No, I'm ready to answer this. Go ahead. Yeah. The story of the last 10, 15 years of prestige golden age television is the story of highly competent, morally questionable men in positions of power, where we may loathe or at least say that we loathe the things that Don Draper or Walter White are doing, but you can't knock the hustle

because those guys are the best of what they do, even if what they do isn't very pretty. Yes. This is a show about... The compelling characters. This is a show about the end of the American century and failure. Yes. These guys are failures. Yes.

All of them, in their own ways, are full of self-loathing, disappointment, and regret. And when you talk about rooting for things or identifying with things, I can identify with aspects of all of these characters being put into situations where they're maybe not up to it, or they're self-doubting, or just the hateful of it. I'm sorry, I just rich white people who are incompetent. who are going through addiction problems, who are not particularly good at anything. I'm not entirely sure what...

But look, if you want to satirize it, I'll laugh. I'll be right there. I mean, and basically what we're talking about is Trump's, right? I mean, Kendall's basically, you know... They're fails on. He's kind of an avatar for Donald Trump Jr., who I despise in reality.

I think that people who wrote succession would not say that. Maybe not, maybe not. But that's my... I mean, look, that's my interpretation. What's worth saying is that what we're talking about, where a conversation has landed on this show, is the pressure point. It is the most difficult things the show attempts to do, which is humanized monsters, essentially, especially at this moment.

And what you're saying about its inability to do so was my concern going in. I guess like I always, I'm fine not humanizing. I guess I'm fine. Because, by the way, I'm not, unless you think P.T. Anderson did that, Daniel, Plainview, which I don't know if he was. which I don't know if he really did. Mr. Robot is a touchy-feely show, is what we're saying here. It is notoriously covered.

I'm not saying that this has to be a humanist show. Yeah. I'm not advocating for that. But what is compelling about the characters beyond the fact that we can make fun of them, that we can laugh when they fail? And if the show just asked me to do that, I would, I'm there. I was laughing. You're there for the VIP version of it, the thick of it version of it.

Yes, 100%. You turn VEP into a drama where you ask. ask me to care? I don't know if, I don't know if that would work. For me, it spoke to the possibility of both happening at the same time. That you could have. But you keep not answering. This is, this is what I'm saying. I keep asking, why do you care? And you keep not answering. And that's the thing I, that's very telling. I find portraits of failure. Do you find Kendall? I find portraits of failure to be kind of interesting. I don't think they get told very often. Like Andy's saying, I think that a lot of the stories that we see are just about how you won the final hand. I don't care if Donald Trump

Junior fails. I hope he fails, but I don't care if he fails. I wonder how you would feel either. Oh, I don't know about the show if it came out in 2012 then. Oh, I hated the Trumps in 2012. I did too, but I don't think about the Trumps. I sometimes think about the Murdox, you know. I hated the Murdox in 2012. I don't like them either, but I think... Well, I shouldn't say that because I don't know all the Murdox. There might be some nice Murdox out there. By the way, I bet you the Murdox, if you actually told like, you know, a true adaptation of the Murdox, they're probably really smart, fascinating, compelling characters that maybe you don't like. Here, I just did not find the...

For me, the power and the importance of art is to humanize things that you might not understand or to offer a window to give you visions that you might not expect or appreciate. I'm not reading a New York Times profile of Donald Trump Jr. Looking to empathize with him because I know of things that he has done in the real world. Safe in this cocoon of fiction, we can explore interesting ideas about the encroachment of capitalism on human emotion, the way the Shiv and Tom relationship is essentially one elaborate contract negotiation. I'm fascinated by them.

Why? Why are you fascinated? You don't find that fascinating? You don't find that stuff to be dominating the way the world is working right now, the way the people who are basically chasing profit at the expense of everything else? Obviously, I find that interesting, but I don't care about the people necessarily who are engaging in that. And that's the thing.

If you want to talk about it from a different lens, if you want to do a show from a different Lentz. And by the way, look, I'm obviously in the minority. The show's like caught fire. Everybody loves it. And that's not to say, Jeremy Strong is fucking Aces. Brilliant. He's amazing. And a lot of the other performance, the guy

who plays Tom, I can't think of his name. It's brilliant. The woman who plays shit. I mean, great. And Cousin Greg is hilarious. So I'm not debating the craftsmanship that goes into the performances or the way that those people are portraying those people.

But it's just I don't understand the angle. I just don't get the value of what I'm watching. Go ahead. Last two things. One is that we're going to have a mirror image of this conversation in a minute when you get to your number two or number one. What is good about this show is that in spot? I mean, we're debated a lot. That was my second point.

My first point is we're going to have a mirror image of this conversation with your number one or your number two when we get there. And we're about to get there. The other point is just in terms of like the conversation about the conversation about TV. I really have a soft spot for the show because of the way it surprised me, because I struggled through the first few and then sunken deeper, fell in love with it in a way that really caught me off guard. The fact that we're having these spirited conversations. It also has two of the best episodes that came out this year. It absolutely does.

The finale and Prague. And the fact that a lot of people seem to be catching onto it in a slow burning, old-fashioned kind of way. I really appreciate that about it. You know what's weird? It's a flip for me. I enjoyed it in the beginning because I think in the beginning it was actually... It was more scathing towards his characters. Yeah. It seemed to hate the characters.

And then they started to care about. I like the fact that there was never an audience avatar. There was never someone who was like, I just got a job here. And these people were so weird. Yeah, but then he got drawn into it. Okay, so that's your number three? My number one. So what am I doing?

What's your number three? I did Maniac, number three. So you do know your number two. Oh, here it is. Here it is. Here it is. Are you going to say fucking Westworld, man? No, it's Johnny. It's Versace.

Versace, guys. This is Sam's, we're going to clear the lane for you. This is a masterpiece. This is probably the, in my opinion, the best thing Ryan Murphy's ever done. It's so well written. Darren Chris is brilliant in the show. The structure of the whole show is so captivating, so unexpected. And, you know, it starts off really slow.

And I have to say, I wasn't completely grabbed. I was grabbed enough, but not completely in the beginning. And then as it just went on and on, I mean, man, it just hit me. like a ton of bricks by the end. And I don't think either one of you got to the end, right? Is that correct? I made it through eight, which is very close to the end. I couldn't do it.

You know, this is one of those things, and maybe this is actually what's behind our succession argument. This is still TV. It is still subjective. Here's a guy. For you and things that don't. I think Tom Rob Smith is a brilliant writer. Brilliant.

And he wrote a masterpieces. Let me just say, character couldn't be more unlikable. That's absolutely true. I did not like this guy at all. obviously. So compelling. So fascinating. His humanity was compelling. His humanity was compelling. His thought process was compelling. The way he sort of viewed the world. And by the way, and Chris and I, you and I have talked about the directing a little bit on the show. I know you're not a fan. But I think the directing really reflected sort of his cracked mirror version of the world.

Yeah. That's what I mean. I want something to really grab me. I mean, you know, give me somebody who's compelling. Who makes choices who are bold that are bold. Here's something that we needed to say. Great fictional characters

share one trait, which is some level of self-reflection or some willingness or at least openness to being examined of an internal life, right? The Trumps have no internal life. No, zero.

No self-reflection. They are not interesting characters, which is one of the low on the list of worst things. They're not even evil. They're just evil. They're dumb evil. They're evil.

Yes. What are they? Evil? Evil idiots. They're not evil geniuses. The roy's not to backslide are not that. No. And that's what makes the show compelling to me. Similarly, a mass... By the way, they're not even that evil. I don't even think, I wouldn't even characterize Kendall as evil. But a mass murderer on Versace is arguably evil.

Pretty evil. But a roiling ocean of humanity, which made it compelling. This is purely an aesthetic thing for me. I watched and I watched and I admired, but the pieces never coalesced for me. I could not find... And this sounds very basic. And maybe this is really what we're talking about on a fan level. I could not find my way into this story. I could not. I could see it from a distance and I could admire it and appreciate each separate piece,

performance, writing, direction, conception. Certainly the way that was broke, the story was broken up is very unique. And it never coalesced for me. And that sounds flimsy when comparison to your passion to it for it. It's been such a long time that I would almost feel weird like getting myself worked up to say why I didn't like it. I would say that on the flip side,

of what we were talking about before, I did not find the world building particularly compelling in the show, and it did feel kind of, just kind of sounds DG to me. I don't know. But let's get into your, so that's your number two.

That was my number two. We must have the same number one. And it must be the missing one from your list as well. Yeah, my number two is Atlanta. Yeah. My number one. It should be your number one. Okay.

That was the show you told me was going to be your number one. I think I may, maybe it flipped. And it flipped. Tell me. Flip for you. We have talked about the show at length clear the lane again.

Why is this the best thing? I mean, it's, what can I say? The show might actually be underrated at this point. Yes, it is. I completely agree. These lists are coming out and people are like, it's number 11. I don't know how to describe the show without being exaggerating. I mean, the show's on a different level.

It's on a different planet. It doesn't even care about runtime. I mean, you can't even talk about the show in any sort of formalistic way and compare it to any other show because it just does whatever it does. that does it so beautifully, so honestly. And, you know, it's just, I wasn't even a fan of every, necessarily every episode. There were some episodes where I was like, but even on those moments, I was so in. I was so in.

I was so absorbed. I want to be clear when we talk about Atlanta. Like, I really like and even love all 10 shows on my list. You could throw away the other nine, and there could be a one show list because it is not in the same category of competition. It's not in the same category. The best of the other shows that we're talking about, whether it's succession or for Sachi or Killing Eve or Barry

seem to be very, very trenchant about the culture or very appropriately suited to this moment in the culture. Atlanta drives the culture. Instantaneously, like a reference. It doesn't just respond to things. It creates new ideas about how we should be talking about things. And creates new stars,

by the way, too, because Brian Tyree Henry is having a moment. Best actor on TV. Great in widows. A movie I haven't seen yet, but I hope to get the screener soon. Great movie. Holy shit. But like McKee, Stanfield, I mean, these guys...

LA liberal. You guys call me when you have kids. Call me when you have kids. Who says I don't? A survivor in bed produces many offspring. Narcos Mexico on my children. This is why I'm shocked at, it's not your number one. I mean, because it clearly is your front, I mean...

Atlanta. Yeah. Clearly. It's not even close. It is my number one. It's his number one. It's not one. No, I know.

I'm just saying, I don't understand. understand how... It's exactly what you said at the beginning, where I basically went with fresh and new as number one. Also, where else was he going to put Sneaky Pete season two? I know. I was waiting for that to drop. Atlanta, it's so good we could wait two years for another season three.

I don't know. It doesn't matter. We talked about this a little bit, but it's also like, what a testament to the power of the episode still, that each one of these feels like these discrete events, you know, and that when you start to talk, and I personally, like, my favorite episode of the season was Helen. which was not one of the ones that gets talked about a lot, but it's the sort of episode where Donald Glover and Zazi Beetz's characters go off on this road trip to a German cultural festival. I bet they've heard of Deutsche Land 86.

Yeah, exactly. And it's just these remarkable, I think that one was directed by Amy Simets. She directed the episodes that Hero and Donald didn't direct, I believe. Yeah, that was Amy Simons. And it's just this remarkably, like, well-observed relationship chamberpiece that, like, happens in the middle of a season that also. also has Teddy Perkins, it also has the woods. It's just, I can't believe that's the same show. It's everything we want in anything, in that you could, you could, it's a vessel that can

contain any emotion. I mean, the show is deeply sad at times. It's deeply funny. It can be infuriating and affecting. It can just be goofy and weird. I remember when it hit me that's that one episode, I think it's the second to last episode where we're seeing this weird frat party all the naked guys. Oh, the north of the border episode.

Right. And then they all leave, and then Daniel Glover and... A Tracy get into a fight. Yeah, get into a fight. And it gets really sad. On the side of all right, he beats his ass, yeah. Just right after this really goofy, surreal, weird, funny scene. It's just a show that I feel like kind of stretches effortlessly and then comes back

and you never see the tunnel shifts. You never, I mean, you never feel it. You never feel like they're manipulative. or hinting something at you. It's always just in the frames. This isn't a fair comparison, but we spoke about this in the podcast recently, so it's why I'm bringing it up.

If you take a show like, chilling adventures of Sabrina, which we enjoyed, and it's fine. But one of the, among the compliments that show has earned, I think has been people saying, this show feels very of the moment. You know, it is timed or designed well

for this generation or this moment or this attention span, I guess because it is sort of arch, it is knowing it's a little bit winky, winky, clever, it's incredibly fast, it's riffing on a thing that we already know that was itself riffing on another thing, referential. I think that saying that is of the moment is incredibly easy. Yeah. I think that Atlanta is of the moment in that it has a wide ranging attention span. It takes in the possibility of an existence where extremes can happen, like the naked frat boys,

and the sort of impudent fury that Earn has when he's trying to physically fight someone, it's all true, right? I mean, Alfred can be funny in one episode and can have an episode like The Woods where he's just ruined inside. It is the total... I mean, this sounds crazy, but I agree with you.

It feels it's underpraised right now because this is the only show that I think speaks to the totality of our experience that's on TV. Absolutely, Sam, thank you so much for joining us, the annual tradition that we hope to keep doing for years to come. We will be back on Monday

with another episode of The Watch. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Brilliant Earth. Brilliant Earth is the global leader and ethically sourced fine jewelry and the destination for creating your own custom engagement ring. Choose from a variety of beyond conflict-free diamonds and other fine jewelry crafted from recycled precious metals at BrilliantEarth.com. From now until December 14th, you will receive a complimentary pair of diamond studs with the purchase of an engagement ring. To see terms for this

special offer and to shop all BrilliantEarth selections, go to BrilliantEarth.com slash watch. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by the big homies at Sonos. Meet Sonos Beam, The smart compact soundbar for your TV. Beam lets you fill the room with rich sounds of everything you love from music and radio to movies, TV, podcasts, and more. I love Sonos. You know, you basically can set it up with, it's one chord. It's a super easy setup with, just step by step on the app.

And once you're done, you're basically living the dream. You've got football and basketball games that feel like you're sitting right up against the field or the court. And when you're watching movies, the dialogue becomes crystal clear. Go to sonos.com to learn more and order your Sonos beam to start your smart home sound system.