The Watch - The Best TV Episode of 2024

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about some of their runners-up for best TV episode of the year (1:00), and why they ultimately chose 'Shogun' Episode 9, "Crimson Sky," as the winner (26:06). Then, they are joined by show creators Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, writer Caillin Puente, and lead actress Anna Sawai to talk about how making this episode was less about planning and more about immersing themselves in the story as they made the season (34:37) and how this episode became a showcase for Mariko's quiet power (56:14). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Rachel Kondo, Caillin Puente, Anna Sawai, and Justin Marks Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellany. I'm founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. And with my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight. Which streamer is on the brink of collapse? And which executive is on the hot seat? Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again?

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I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he wants to cut to the feeling. It's Andy Greenwald.

One of the great pleasures of a long friendship. You never know what the day will bring. Yeah. You know, we're here to talk about the episode of the year in television, and yet just yesterday, you texted me and you were like, Hey, Carly Ray Jepson, P. Good. Let me give you a little background on that.

Please give our listeners. There is a very good, very sweet movie on HBO on Max right now called Sweethearts. Look at you tying this into what we cover on the podcast. And I am documenting the Kieran Shipka Sants because she's been in a bunch of movies this year, long legs, twisters. You're pro Kiki. Yeah, and so she stars in this film, Sweethearts. I watched it with my wife the other night. It was very, very sweet.

and it ends with cut to the feeling by Carly Ray Jepson which I was like One of the great songs God be honest I don't know if I've ever heard this before it And here's the thing Carly Ray Jepson's two bangers Make all other Carly Ray Jepson

Like less good Like because her two great songs are like Holy shit this song is so good So that when you hit me back with like 14 Carly Ray Jepson It was 4-5 and it was instant I was like no man these aren't these aren't reaching these levels, okay? Just so you know. I would like to use this conversation as a way to pivot to what my 11-year-old daughter said to me

when I showed her that we were on YouTube, which was, quote, why would anyone want to watch this? That's okay. She said, why would anyone want to watch two 40-year-olds talk about stuff? And my answer is, because sometimes we talk about Carly Ray Jepson. That's true. I mean, you've got to stay tuned. Andy, they can watch us on the Ringer TV YouTube channel.

they can watch us a little bit on the Instagram account run by Kaia McMullen called The Watch Podcast. One of the Instagram accounts run by Kaii McMullen. We won't name the others. At the watch pod underscore. At the watch pod underscore. You're never going to get this right. I'm just doing a purpose at this point. And here we are talking about the best episode of TV in 2024.

This is a new tradition of ours. We did it last year with Christor from the Bear and Evan Moss Backrack. And this year we have a great group of guests. So why don't you tell everybody who we got? Well, the episode of the year for the episode of the year episode was Crimson Sky, the penultimate episode of Shogun season one. And joining us again on the pod are the showrunners, co-creators, executive producers, husband and wife team, Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo,

as well as Kylin Puente, the co-writer of the episode along with Rachel Kondo, and the star of the episode, Anna Soi. That's right. Emmy Award winner for her role as Merrico on Shogun. So we had all of them joining us from across multiple time zones. It was quite, it was quite the feat to get everybody. Shout out to Lana from FX for wrangling everyone. We were across, yeah, across three time zones, three cities, Australia, Hawaii, in Los Angeles. Yeah. And it was a great conversation with them, which we will get into in a bit. In a bit. Yeah, with no rush, right?

Why rush? I think people will enjoy spending time with this current iteration of my voice before hearing me on the Shogun portion recorded a few days ago when I was in, I was more. I was more, hail and hearty at the time. What would you like to talk about? I have a couple of topics. Number one would be BlackBag, the trailer for the new Steven Soderberg movie, which is coming out in March,

which I think ordinarily, you know, I would leave to big picture and the movie guys, movie pods of the ringer, but I do think that when Michael Fastbender plays a spy, we take notice. It's important for us. Yeah, clearly like drawing from

some of our favorite spy characters in English literature, like Len Dighton's Harry Palmer character and George Smiley from John LaCarray's novels. But it was a very slick, very haywire-looking trailer. I thought that looked incredible. This looks like the best movie ever. What are you talking about?

This movie is literally made for us, and you're like, oh, I thought this looked tasteful. No, you know, it was just that you had a very muted reaction when you watched the trailer. You're like, cool. So why did you, then you modulated because you didn't want to embarrass me? This is Stephen Soderberg directing a sleek European spy thriller starring two of the best actors alive,

and also Pierce Brosnan, and also Marisa Bella from Industry, our number one show, sorry, number two show of the year. This is for us, not by us. This is just foo. It's just foo. I love it. Is it concerning that Michael Fastbender

only plays one character now? It is wild. It is between the killer, the agency, and this. He has just been, like, in that outfit, killing people. Not raising his heart rate at all. Yeah. What's interesting about this is this.

Usually when actors settle into the one thing that they do, those actors are Richard Kind. Yeah. You know what I mean? They're like, hey, get Rick Kind to do that thing when he shouts. It's rarely someone who within a decade ago was tipped as the next leading man. Yeah, I mean, he was and he wasn't, right?

Because, like, I think he did a couple of big blockbusters, like, Assassin's Creed. Yeah, it didn't go great. And maybe needed to be more in this world where his inherent kind of, I wouldn't, I would say cool, but also coldness and stillness was emphasized. He also, correct me if I'm wrong, this might be more of a big picture take, but like, didn't he just sort of not act for a while? He didn't because he was racing cars. He was racing cars and I think raising a family. But so now is he, so how does that work for him?

Does he like put the car in neutral? And he's like, you got me for 18 months, but I'm not going to change character. You can put different clothes on me. Turn the car off. It's not like... See, I have an electric car. I don't know if I've mentioned that. And so really, it's always kind of on.

Boy, you think we'll ever have like an electric car Grand Prix? Like an electric car, Le Mans? Like that? Is that the way your car sounds? Sounds like Mario Kart? Is that what it would be like? Yeah. It wouldn't be cool.

Yeah. I can guarantee you that. So the answer is no. No, we won't. Speaking of electric cars. I just wanted to bring up... I'm just eyes spinning. Bring up Landman.

And refra. There it is. You're good at this. You haven't watched the most recent episode. No, because full disclosure, I didn't know we were going to be able to do it in person.

Yeah. No. I decided to stay in L.A. because it's too cold in Philadelphia. And because you miss me. Landman's still pretty incredible. This episode was, we could save it to talk about next week if you'd like to.

Because two things. One, I am interested. Two, you know, maybe my politics are shifting along with the countries. Yeah. So maybe I'm more open to this sort of thing. thing, but also, you have now said repeatedly that, quote, I come alive only when talking about Landman. It's just like when we talk about something that we both really love. But it's like this

serious business. We have to really like talk about like how they've unearthed different themes. Or like say nothing. Yeah. And it's like, okay. It's like we're a little bit more muted. Do you think that we should release the after hour say nothing tapes? Do you think it's time for like our other takes on that show? Yeah, say nothing. But we're like, we're a little bit. We're a little bit. We're a little bit. with like nine pints of stout before we talk about it. I hear you. So I'm with you on this journey. Yeah, well, I mean, you have to watch out because Bill's on your corner now.

Wait, you mean Bill's covering something that we cover? That doesn't happen. What are you talking about? He's on landman corner. Or should I say landman patch? Yeah. Yeah, he's out on the fields. The Permian Basin.

I'm just saying, watch out. This is your way of saying you went on the Bill Simmons podcast to talk about Landman. Oh, should I talk about some of my other podcast appearances? Yeah, have you done any? How are they going? How are they going? I was on, I was, I talked about, about Landman with Bill. It was, but it wasn't the same. Well, it was different. That's okay. What do you want to say about Landman now? I want to save it, actually. I was just going to say that this is a remarkable episode because it's 43 minutes. Oh, sick. I would say it's about 16 minutes long in terms of an episode. A lot of it is

two music videos, essentially. Some long shots of John Ham's characters are. art collection and a lot of drone shots of Allie Larder and Billy Bob Thornton driving back and forth between Fort Worth and Midland. That sounds great. Can I ask you a question about the show just broadly? I did a, for a friend, I went to her office, marketing thing and marketing company and spoke about entertainment and streaming stuff we talk about on the podcast. And they actually had a lot of questions about how marketing is effective, how marketing can be effective in this like splintered cultural ecosystem. Okay.

And they wondered what marketing has been effective for me, you know, over the last few, like marketing campaigns that I've noticed or responded to or wasn't threatened or annoyed by. And I was like, I got to be honest with you. The single most effective marketing that I've experienced in the last calendar year is Mickelope Ultra on Landman. Because I mean this sincerely. Did you actually, have you drank a Mickelob Ultra since Landman started? No.

Okay. As you may hear, I've been a little froggy, so it didn't seem like the best thing. But when I watched the first episode, and I was like, this is the most blatant product placement I've ever seen. Yeah. And then as the episodes, you know, continue to stack up and people who, this will, people will resonate with people whether you've watched it or not, it has become a plot point where Billy Bob Thorne walks into bars. And they're like, would you like an alcoholic beverage, sir? And he's like, no, I am an alcoholic. I would like a bottle of your finest

Mickelow Bolter. And then everyone stops and says, but sir, sir, that is still a beer. And he says, is it? Basically. And then he drinks seven of them and then drives to Dallas. Yeah, it's probably really mixed messaging

on the product. Because it's essentially like this is weak sauce for babies who can't hold their booze. You can also drive a pickup truck while you've had seven of them. Yes. And I think that this is interesting to me

because I just, I'm just going to throw this out there. I said this. field tested this yesterday, so I'm going to put it on the pod. I feel like maybe we are in the mask-off era of corporate marketing, where it's just like, yeah, this kind of sucks. Let's keep talking about this. But do you know what I mean?

They're like, this kind of sucks, but, you know, it is what it is. Someone smartly pointed this out. I can't, I would give her credit. I'm sorry, I didn't get her name yesterday where she was like, isn't this like Cineabon in better calls off? Or is this person at like Albertsons or something? No, no, no, this was at the marketing company where I was a guest yesterday. And no, no, it was like, when Better Call Saul was like, we are going to script a scenario where the once great Saul Goodman is reduced to the most pathetic circumstances imaginable working at a mall in Nebraska.

Yeah, at a synobon. Maybe it should be Sinabon. Hey, Sinabon, are you cool with us saying this about you? And they were like, please. Yeah. Say more. Yeah. And in a way, I was like, isn't this kind of like Sony being like, what's your response to Craven the Hunter?

And they were like, we did an oopsie. Guess it was a bad idea Making a shit movie for no reason We haven't seen Raven the Hunter, you don't know Okay, yeah, all right And it's Jacey Chandra It could be like an incredible film Yeah, well the thing I know about Jacey Chandor

Is from Jump, he's like, I am passionate about making a movie About a Russian underworld figure Who has the blood of a lion And also Christopher Abbott and Russell Crow Anyway, do you get my point here Yeah, I do about marketing and do you agree? I'm trying to think of a marketing

that has effectively said like, let's be honest. And then I've been like, yes, let's be honest. I think cereal should do this. We had a long conversation about this on the rewatchables this week. Me and Bill talking about the 2000... Is that another pod you were on this week? 14 film The Gambler, starring Mark Wahlberg.

Oh, I saw that on a plane, yeah. Mark Wahlberg's character mostly eats cereal in this movie, so we were talking about our relationship to cereal. And cereal really got, like, I think, legislated out of society in my world. You know, like, where it was like... Everybody was like a serial. head and then it was just like you shouldn't eat it. This is just a really bad way to start your day. Well, this is in your Huberman bubble, but yes. Uh, would your kids eat cereal?

Great point. Kind of they don't. Is that because you indoctrinated them into his savory breakfast and having like a bowl of rice with an egg and like some salmon or whatever? First of all, it was this morning, it was salmon eggs. They actually were like, can we have salmon row over rice? Salmon row? Yeah, I was like, you are not, you're not fit for the world. I've done nothing. Yeah. That really happened. Okay.

I took them to the fish store yesterday. I was like, let's get something for dinner. And the only thing they wanted in the store was Sam Monroe for breakfast tomorrow. Well, this is your fault. But anyway, yeah, it's all my fault. Anyway, I'm the villain of Landman. But to your point about cereal. Yeah, no, I was just saying that, like, if cereal came back and was just basically like cigarettes, it's like, it's really bad for you.

But what an amazing product. I think that's really smart. Yeah. But wait. So, you do you... I feel like cereal kind of got too gassed up in the 90s, because it was Seinfeld era, but also for a long time for us,

cereal was a delivery system, a fraudulent delivery system for mixed health messages. Yeah, because cereal... Because you'd have frosted mini-weets and they would be like, this is your daily, like, burst of vitamin F, you know. This is a huge thing for... Vitamin frosted.

Vitamin fraudulent. This is a huge thing for our generation. Sorry, Kaya, but like in the early 90s, there was a cereal called, called cracklin oat bran. Yeah. And the messaging of cracklin oat bran was,

this will lower your cholesterol. Now, cholesterol was basically the ISIS of the late 80s, where it's like, how long have you guys known about this? It's lying in wait to kill us? Yeah. And so we were just clinging to anything to save us from the scourge of cholesterol, this newly invented problem.

Yeah. And apparently, cracklin oat bran was the key, and people were buying boxes and just having bowl after bowl to get them numbers down. And then someone, I'd like to say a doctor, was like, hey, just FYI, this is cookies? Yeah, these have like 87 grams of sugar. Like, do you in the morning, but just so you know. This has recently happened to me because I was listening to Josh Brolin on Marin,

and he tells this very long story about Zinn, which I have like, I'm very passionate about it, but it's also like I have another nicotine delivery system that I prefer, which is these little lozenges, these little mince. And a secondary one called cigarettes. And he was like, those are sugar. Like, that's just pure sugar. And I was like, have I just been having like 40 extra grams of sugar a day eating nicotine lozenges?

But I don't know if Josh Brolin got his numbers right there. Oh. Yeah. Well, I don't my own research. You do your own research. This has really gone in a bunch of different directions. But isn't this like people who were like, oh, cigarettes are bad for you. I'm just going to buy this tube of cotton candy flavored smoke

and just suck on it for nine hours a day. No, nobody's under any illusions that that is insanely bad for you to do to vape. But I do think people are like, well, at least it's not cigarettes. I'm like, cigarettes are limited series, right? Whereas vapes are the gray's anatomy of lung poison. Yeah, you're lighting a USB stick on fire. For unlimited amounts of time. No, you have to refill the juice inside of it.

You have to refill the juice. Yeah, you have to get like new fluid. Say that in the camera. Get new fluid. This podcast rules. I thought your cereal point, if I could come back to it, was a smart one. I would love it if like the ringer business team came back to me. It was just like, God, we're getting a lot of interest from Mickelope and big vape juice.

No. And fucking Kellogg's. Like, let us run the cereal account. I agree. I think cereal got two in front of its skis and then went too low. when in fact, people enjoy sweet, crunchy taste, drowned in milk. It's fine. It's one of the great things we've ever invented.

It's fine. Did you ever, sorry, last thing. Okay. When you were a kid, I'm sure, because I feel like there was one or two of these kids in every classroom who was allergic to dairy. Now everyone is. But at the time, it was kind of a unique circumstance. Yeah. And I just remember racking my tiny first grade brain being like, but then how does he have Cheerios?

Like, what does he do? because that was what one did in the morning was have cereal. Yeah. So it never occurred to me that he could have other options. I don't think we had other options when we were kids.

Well, no, like maybe you could have a Thomas's English muffin, for example. Oh yeah, you had a different breakfast up. There was alternatives. Salmon Row. I remember like just some fine Russian salmon caviar. By the way, you were not allowed to complain. I'm not complaining about anything. That was an insane.

I didn't realize what I had done. Yeah. I just remember 40 years ago calming myself and going to sleep thinking, oh, you probably pour his orange juice on his cereal. I was like, that's probably a plausible outcome. That's Quaker Education, baby. I'm just, I don't know any facts, but I'm looking for the light within. Should we talk a little bit about what makes a great episode of television?

Yes, can I also just do one other bit of admin? You kill my segues. Go ahead. It was a good segue. Yeah. I just want to say that, like, no matter how. How many times now we do our year-end podcast, and no matter how many times we talk about our friend Sam Esmail, people are consumed with the idea that there's some sort of beef.

Yeah. That we're fighting. That he's not... There's feedback about this. Welcome back on this podcast. That something has gone wrong. Even though I keep casually referring to the fact that we hung out with Sam in London, where he is in pre-production on his movie last month.

So let me just say now, Sam Esmail, you're dead to us. No, it's fine. He didn't want to do this anymore because he's not watching a lot of TV and he's in pre-production on his movie. Yeah, I think... It's not an issue. I want to keep it ambiguous.

Oh, okay. So let me speak for me. My relationship with Sam is fine. Yeah. The pause is intentional. Let's talk about best episodes of the year. Yes. Okay, so we have obviously this great conversation

coming up with the team from Shogun. But I wanted to ask you a little bit what you think makes a great episode. We talked a little bit about this last year. But I think it's always useful to kind of talk about the criteria we use. It's not scientific, but it's also, I think, has some logic to it. Sure. It's important to just, like, sort of separate moments in episodes.

I think that's one thing. You know, Rob and Joe talked a little bit about their favorite TV moments of the year. And those can pop up anywhere. Those can be small. They can be big. But I think that what we were looking for when we were talking about what our favorite episode of TV of the year was something that really honored getting the most out of the runtime of the episode, whether that was a 22-minute episode of something or an hour and six-minute

episode of something. And often, you know, I have a list of things here. The number one example I could come up with for this was the first episode of The Sympathizer, which was phenomenal. It's called Death Wish. And it's a show that didn't wind up really getting discussed much after the first two episodes by us. And I think fell off of a lot of people's sort of radar after a while. but was directed by Park Chan Wook and was just like this absolutely dazzling assured, stylish, kinetic,

well-written, well-acted piece of filmmaking for this, and introduced this world of the sympathizer with such panache. And, you know, the show itself like kind of like struggled, I think, to keep up that energy. But that's a good example. That was on my short list of things

to consider for Best Episode of the Year. Do you think... anything that would be considered as the best episode of the year has to be part of the best show of the year, one of the best shows. No. I think that maybe in the years to come that could be a separate, those could diverge more fully than they have, for sure. That said, I do think one of my criteria, probably not as important of one as some of the categories, some of the things that you've already said and that we're going to continue to reiterate. But one of the criteria is that I would consider would be making something exceptional, within the flow of something larger.

Yeah. You know, I think that what, I love getting the chance to do this every year now because I do think that there's a very particular alchemy to a good television episode. Despite how often we talk about the writer or the showrunner or we big up an actor or we talk about a director, you just mentioned with Park Chen Wook,

what makes TV TV is the kind of sublimation of all of these different individual talents into one harmonic whole. And you have something that had equal contributions from the actors, from the writers, from production, and all the different categories that fall under production, whether it's costumes or the editor, that's post-production, but you get my point.

And everybody working in service of something that feels seamless, that speaks or shouts with one voice. And so part of that for me is that those voices shouting in chorus within the episode and then in the larger context of the series. but that's kind of how I think about it. And I don't think we were at a loss for a lot of choices this year. No, I mean, just obviously a lot of people listening to this

and industry fans would probably say white mischief would have been the episode of the year. And it certainly has a strong case. That was the Rishi episode of industry. I also had Judgment Day by the three-body problem episode. Just because that was kind of the jaw-dropping movement for me of the year of all like kind of blockbuster television. television, even though that show itself maybe has its critics.

No, and you had the feeling that, like, this matters too. Like, you had the feeling that within the writer's room, this episode was circled on the whiteboard of like, this is the prove-it episode. Yeah. Evil Little Maniacs, the Say Nothing episode that features the sisters going to London. And I would have said, on top of that, I would have said that or the hunger strike episode, which was not a fun watch, but was dazzling. And in a way, the strength of those two episodes as a one-two punch almost diluted the

case for either as the single episode of the year. but they're absolutely worthy of the honor. Did you have any other runner-ups? Yeah, I would say that I know the bear, in terms of its placement on our top 10 list, is sort of in limbo dependent on how season four turns out, but I would say the Ice Chips episode was absolutely a contender again this year.

That was the Abby Elliott, Jamie Lee Curtis, essentially two-hander, beautiful, incredible stand-out episode. And napkins as well would be on my list for best episodes of the year. I would say the therapy episode of Mr. and Mrs. Smith, between Sarah Paulson. It's sort of a masterclass

and what that show does well. And I think that's another way to look at this category or this award that we're giving at every year, which is like so often you and I are asked like, oh, what do you recommend?

What should we watch? And the way we consume TV now, it's basically like, well, there's 10 episodes of something that I think you'll have to check out. Yes. It's kind of nice to be able to say, no, I don't think anyone would ever do this,

but to say, if you want to know what we think is great about this show, watch episode eight. Now, that's sort of cheating and maybe you'd be lost. but at the same time, it's not a bottle episode, but it is an encapsulation of what we love about something. Yeah, it's hard when the signature part of a season of television takes place,

like five, six episodes in, and you're like, oh, you've got to watch the show, but make sure you stick around until episode five. I hate that. And because it's so competitive now, it's not like succession where I think some people needed a few episodes to get the rhythm of it, for instance. And it was episode three when they sort of started to come around to the, the idea of the show. It's tough. When you've got, you know, five hours of say nothing or six

hours of say nothing instantaneously, it's hard to make the case that people need to stick around for episode five, you know? Yes. I think in that case, that show has enough momentum to get you there. Yeah. But, but it's absolutely true. I would say also the English teacher finale. Mm-hmm. I thought it was incredible. And I've re-watched it because I loved it so much. You're going to get mad. But the earthquakes episode of everybody's in L.A. I'm not bad. I just, all I was saying this for series is that I thought we were sticking with scripted, but I actually don't think I had a non-scripted show that I would throw in there. The Letterman and Lunell underneath the blanket was worth 10 of many other shows, I would say, this year. And then I did allude to this on Monday's pod, but like the sugar pilot was amazing. Yeah. I have no qualms about saying that. Colin Farrell, that episode has my favorite Colin Farrell performance of the year where he's both incredible. incredibly charismatic and hot and stylish, but also bruised and sad and empathetic.

And Fernando Morel is the great director, did a beautiful job with it. And I was really, really excited. It did, like The Sympathizer, it did everything it was supposed to do to set a series up for success. Yeah. And then it didn't. It's been interesting to do this last year and this year. Last year, I think we celebrated an episode that happens in the middle of the season is about a supporting character. This was Forks last year.

from the bear. And I think comes almost out of left field in the flow of the season of television. You've kind of gone through fishes and the emotional catharsis of that and the chaos of it. And it's very much about Karmie's kind of like what constituted

and what were the foundations of his shattered psyche, is this family. And then you get this beautiful story of redemption, even if one night of redemption, at least, and this transformation

of this Ritchie character. But this year we chose a show and we chose an episode that was kind of more classical in its successes. It is the penultimate episode of a prestigious television show that has been building and building and building. And typically, especially for shows like The Wire, maybe Mad Men, you know, we can count on that second to last episode as being the real make sure you're home for this episode. and that the last episode winds up being in a lot of ways a CODA and a setup for the next thing. Obviously, Shogun, when it was presented to us, we thought it was going to be a limited series.

We didn't think about like a Cota for the next season of Shogun. But this felt like the culmination of everything Justin and Rachel had been working on and obviously the arc of this character, Mariko. Yeah, I think that it's interesting to compare it to Forks because I actually do think there's some similarities in the sense that it is a master's. character study in miniature in the midst of something much larger, that the misdirect of this,

and we talked to the creative team about this a lot, was that for the bulk of the season, Crimson Sky is spoken about as Toranaga's master plan. Yeah. And the expectation, and certainly the expectation as a veteran prestige TV viewer, is that this is going to be explosive. And I guess that this episode actually is explosive in the very end. But in the sense that it's going to be some sort of large-scale battle that will determine control. when in fact, for the majority of the episode, it is a battle of interiority. It is a battle of intention, is a battle of signifying and presentation that is bloodless, but cuts incredibly deep.

It felt like the crescendo of a symphony, and it really did feel like they paid off and gave resolution to a lot of the questions and conversations they started about this Mariko character, where she was this person who was, existing kind of between homes, in between roles, in between languages, in between faiths, in between loyalties. She was kind of an orphan in some ways and had found a purpose and found almost a religion. And I mean, she did find obviously God, but she found something to believe in in Toranauga. And the sacrifice that she feels she has to make and the way they dramatize it over the course of this episode is really just one of the most moving things you'll see on TV. The entire episode, I think, is about confidence and performance. And forget the episode as a whole for a second.

The sequence in which Mariko attempts to leave to prove that she cannot at the cost of some of her supporters' lives is probably the most breathtaking sequence I saw in TV all year. And Anna So I is playing brilliantly a character who continues to put one foot in front of the other, even though she knows drastic things might come of it. And in a way, that's a microcosm of what Shogun did to me with this episode. It is, we said when we were talking about the show on our top 10 lists on Monday, the show is an incredibly risky gambit. There's an enormous, enormous expenditure over many years, all in the service of a question mark. Like, would the audiences in this very fractured moment come to a reimagining of an established

but kind of dusty property that was reconceived with people who weren't necessarily famous and the show is mostly in Japanese. And then on top of it, the season arc builds under a

incorrect assumption on the part of the audience that we're going to get some sort of giant samurai battle. The Crimson Sky is going to be the end-all be-all Toranaug is brilliant, ruthless, and probably epically bloody

attempt to retake the Shogunate of Japan. And this episode is called Crimson Sky. And I think that Justin and Rachel and FX were kind of smart, that there are people we talk about this. There are people who sort of peep the titles. Look ahead. Wikipedia of the series and wonder what, you know, and like, oh, okay, here it comes.

This is the big one. Yeah. And the incredible Ropa Dope of this actually being the big one in the sense that it encapsulates everything that is compelling about Shogun in terms of its execution, but also in terms of its thematic strengths, and it being about one woman's attempt to find purpose in her, it's not a marginalized life, but it is a challenging life. Yeah, I think she's been trying to give herself to something

over the course of her life, and she just can't, she either gets rejected, circumstances arise where she can't do it. I thought one of the most fascinating aspects of our upcoming conversation with the creative team behind the series and Anna was hearing them talk about happy accidents, things that needed to be revised, things that needed to be threaded and fixed and adjusted to create this episode of television. You know, like, I think that we look at the product and we often kind of assume this sort of authorial purpose and authorial vision that from the second this person wrote exterior this scene, this is the vision that that was going to wind up on our TV screens years later.

And that's just really maybe 99% of the time, not what happens. You know, it's weather, it's casting, it's, did the camera work in the right way that day to look the way it was supposed to. Did something get alluded to earlier in the season that we needed to then go back and fix to make sure it made sense to the end of the season? And there's so much stuff in TV that isn't really linear and it's not really, it's not really planned. You have to fix it on the fly and you have to fix it and edit and you have to fix it, you know, with something. a piece of ADR. And it was really great hearing them be so candid about what they had to do to make this episode. Yeah, I think that if we serve any purpose with this episode of our podcast every year talking

about an episode, it's to sort of lift up the hood and give people some insight into how this TV sausage actually gets made. Because I don't just love the final product. I don't love this business, but I do love this process. and the collision of, you know, light bulbs of inspiration and happy accidents and the collaborations of people who we didn't really get to talk too much about, like Frederick Toy, who directed this episode beautifully, Atticus Ross did the score, which is crucial to this episode.

Helen Jarvis is the production designer, and, you know, we joked about this on Monday, but, like, there's not a moment watching this where I'm like, there are 50 people in Vancouver on screen right now. Yeah. That is not what this episode feels like. It is on an enormous, enormous scale. to smaller, subtler decisions that we get into the Justin and Rachel talk about specifically of what to portray in Mariko's final moments and in the final moments of the episode.

It was great to talk to them all again for the fact that they're like, not only were they in different places, but Rachel and Justin and Kalin are deep in the weeds on season two. And Anna is filming something in Australia and yet was just that day nominated for Golden Globe again. So this journey kind of never ends. Yeah, she was kind of surprised to still be talking about Shogun, I think. But obviously it's something that really stuck with her. You can tell it's not a job with these folks.

You know what I mean? Like you can tell this was something that not only are they really proud of, but they're incredibly moved by the response to it. So I guess that's as good as any as to get into our conversation with the creative team and Abind Shogun, Justin Mark's, Richard Kondo, Calum Puente, and then also the star of this episode, Anna SOWI. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale sign storeware. and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. I just want to start by saying to everybody here from Shogun, congratulations on being the second ever awardee of our episode of the year episode.

You know, this is pretty big, I think. We hope. We hope. Definitely means you now don't have to go to the Golden Globe. So don't sweat that anymore. You've gotten your big award. but this Crimson Sky is obviously, I went back and listened to the pod

that Andy and I did about it at the time and we said what we said. We were like, this is going to be hard to top and it didn't get top. So congratulations to Anna, to Justin, to Colin, to Rachel. It was just such an incredible episode. I guess we can start. Why don't we start with Rachel?

Like, for much of the season, Crimson Sky is presented as this inevitable, like sort of giant battle that's going to take place. And it winds up being a little bit of a rope an episode that's primarily about the bravery and the sacrifice of this one woman. Torinag is not even in it. I was going back and trying to find all the mentions of Crimson Sky and it was difficult to sort of piece together where this sort of plan has its origin. But for the writer's room and for the creators, like when did Crimson Sky kind of come into your mind? Well, I'm so glad I'm going first.

This is the preferred way. Well, I think what I'll start with is just personally speaking, I didn't, I don't think I understood that everything was going to funnel to this moment. Having read the book a couple of times, I don't know if Callan feels the same way, but even, I don't know, even when we're in it, I didn't really quite understand. It felt kind of inevitable, but I also wasn't expecting it somehow. And I just think that the Crimson Sky genius was that it kept, there was kind of a, chorus going over the course of this season so that you, you as the viewer, you as the reader, I'm sorry, just viewer.

I keep thinking scripts. You're building the war in your own mind. You're building that battle. And so you're expecting to see something. And that's when we undercut everything, literally undercut a lot of things, Anna. And we send in a woman. So, yeah, there's no like, more. moment where I thought crimson sky is actually going to be this one person and this one

slate of hand. Yeah, Callan, because I noticed that the, you know, even the scene, I believe it's the episode previous, the Toranaaga and Mariko conversation is largely off camera. Like, we don't get to find out, are you ready to do your part and what that part is? So as writers, were you, were you charting something that's basically not on screen for us in terms of like what these characters are talking about throughout the maybe the previous few episodes? I think a little bit. And it's really interesting thinking about like the crimson sky of it all because for us like originally that wasn't the title of the episode. Like that did come to us a bit later because it did feel so inevitable for like Mariko's character that it was going to like turn

out this way. And then I think it was like working our way through the season that we realized like that was so wed with Torinaga's plotline and like what we needed to happen for the story. overall. But yeah, I feel like we actually spent relatively little time talking about, like, what are Marie Don't Tourin and Aplodding together? Like, we never broke down what that conversation was because it was like, it's like, it's the emotions for her. Like, we knew what her character was kind of getting into and like how this huge climactic thing was going to happen for her. And like, that was the more important part than like stepping out the politics of it, I think, for us. Was the original title of the episode The Poetry Competition?

And that was the FX note. It was the line from her poem. Yeah, I think it was Leifless French for like a good long time. There is a moment early in the episode when it's just like, they're so excited about the poetry competition. And I was like, this is such a flex. This is such a flex for the episode. Everyone was expecting a battle. Welcome to the poetry competition.

Exactly. We're doing things differently here. Anna, turning to you, you know, as Chris, was just saying, the episode ends up being about one woman and her journey. You play that woman. And the first time that we talked to Justin and Rachel about the triumph that was Shogun season one, a question we asked was, what was it like writing this show and this character, knowing that everything could be incredible if they were able to find the person who could play this part if only the right actor existed? As it turned out, and as the Emmy voters agreed, the right actor did exist to play the part.

and it was you. I wondered what your experience was, and now we're jumping off of this episode a little bit, but just broadly speaking, when you read Mariko on the page, what made you think that you were that right person? What was the moment that you connected to her and made you think that this might be the role for you?

I want to start by saying, I didn't realize how difficult it was for everyone to find someone to play medical. It was only after the fact that I found out. And so I'm glad that I didn't know because otherwise it would have been, too much pressure. I feel like for me it was just reading her storyline. It was a struggle that I knew. It was pain that I knew. It was pain that I knew from my mom, from my grandparents,

from my grandma. Why am I crying? It's been a while since I talked about Shogun. I thought I was done crying in these press interviews. Apparently I'm not. But it was a struggle that I understood. And so I felt like it was going to be challenging because it was my first period piece. But I knew that I could play her because I just understood it all. And for me, going into episode nine, I think it was a relief because it was the episode where she's actually finally able to become vulnerable.

And there was some sort of weight because it wasn't just my story. It belonged to every woman who has been through the pressure of society and men and everything else. But it was, yeah, a story that belonged to the whole community. And so going in with that weight, I think really helped kind of play the stakes. And also to add to what Rachel is, and Callen were talking about, I don't even believe that Mariko knows that she is Crimson Sky. I think that she believes that she is a part of that vessel. She's a vessel, but she is not the one thing.

I think that she believes that Crimson Sky is what Torana-Nama's plan is as a whole. So she's just playing a small part in it. Following up on that, I did want to ask what it was like for you, and then I'd like to turn it back to the writers to ask what it was like for them in terms of the construction. Often, you know, if you get a role on a TV show, for example, you have a lot of open road in front of you, and you don't exactly know where you're going and you can build it piece by piece. I imagine you knew going in that Maricote does not survive the season and would sacrifice herself in this way. So I wondered if her ultimate action was part of every bit of your performance before it, if that makes sense.

if that knowledge informed your performance and what you showed us in the preceding episodes. It definitely helps knowing what's going to happen. I hate not knowing where we're going because it always just makes it harder. But I don't know if I was thinking, oh, it's going to end like this, so I'm going to do it. Because the character or us as human beings,

we're only living in the moment. We don't know how things are going to turn out. But it's so hard because I'm contradicting what I'm saying. But I think that having that image in my mind, but also just focusing on that scene is just the key. And we got to shoot it chronologically. So living with the characters, building the relationship with other actors, building the relationship with the directors. That all helped. So it was just on the back of my mind.

Justin, I was, oh, sorry, go ahead, Eddie. Oh, just I just wanted to turn that to Rachel and Calland is because that line, you know, flowers. are only flowers because they fall is seems, seems relevant. It's a beautiful line and it does seem relevant to you guys crafting the character of Mariko over these episodes, knowing what is to come and sort of needing to earn it episode by episode week to week. I feel like it was kind of the journey for Callan and myself just in the writer's room too, just week by week, day by day, picking the story apart, trying to understand these characters, trying to understand trajectories and and what their consequences would be.

And, you know, we, uh, something that we kind of came up with on our own in the room was this friendship between Maracle and Ochiba. And this friendship is kind of, you could also argue that everything hinges on this friendship. You know, if you go to a deeper level, if it weren't for this friendship, it would all be for moot. And so that, I think that that was something that was really lovely to, I don't, Actually, I'm not even answering your question. I forget the question. I'm loving your answer more than I like my question, honestly.

I just realized I went down a dark alley. Anyway, it took a left turn. But when I think back to that time, because mind you, this was many years ago that we wrote this initially, when I think back to that time, those were the conversations I remember having was like thinking about them as girls. And what would that be like to have these powerful father figures? to have a tragedy basically define your every step in life, you know, all these big things that kind of what Anna was saying,

as women, we just naturally, innately, unfortunately, continue to relate to. Yeah. And like just going off of that and like Anna's answer as well, like we kind of knew where we had to go with like the end of the episode and like politically what that means for the story. But this evolution of like what it meant for her character in these relationships, like that came along kind of gradually as we worked through the season.

And like even into like prep and production, like what her friendship with Oceba meant and her relationship with Blackmore and how that changed. Like those all shifted kind of as we were going. So that was like the really interesting thing to discover where it's like, of course, we know she's making this big political stand. But like what does that mean for her as a character? And like all of these really close relationships with her son, with her best friends. Is this a strange, beautiful relationship that it was so important that we had to

to then go feed back into earlier episodes because we'd like, oh, we wanted to land this and I, but we don't have them meet. Like, we have to find an episode where we can explore that relationship for them as girls. And that was, like, really kind of amazing to, like, have that evolve. Even though we knew the end point,

we just didn't know, like, all of the details of, like, how to get there yet. And now that we're talking about it, I think it was fully intentional. We did it exactly at all along. We knew we were around the friend and backfilled. So. I wish I could go through.

all of the things that they're saying, you know, all of which make this episode so great, and to point out how many of these things were found very late or on accident and, you know, kind of reversing their way through it. I mean, there was a lot of that. I mean, the Oche of a miracle childhood relationship, you know, truly is an invention of Callan and Rachel's, you know, beyond what the book was. I mean, I'm, Callan, I'm struggling to remember what that implied relationship even was because, you know, there wasn't one. Yeah, Oceba was really just the late Corota's nephew,

you know, kind of only a distant relation of his. So it wasn't a story of two daughters. In the book, they didn't even know each other. Yeah. They met at her birthday party, which is what we turned the poetry competition into. Everyone was going to Osaka for Oceba's birthday. The birthday party doesn't have the same impact as the poetry competition, though.

Yeah. Which then also was. It was troubling, but it couldn't be done in light of when we wanted Dioene to die in the season because he would not have any parties so soon after the death of a major figure. So we, you know, kind of found our way through that through research. But even the title, you know, as they're both alluding to in Crimson Sky, I just want to say, is like Crimson Sky in Clevel's book was never, at least as readers, to our knowledge, the actual plan to send Merrick. It was just a total McGoffin, Red Herring, sitting out there for other people to grab. You know, we only just, I think, at the very end, at this moment of him saying,

I sent a woman to do what an army never could. And then we're all there out there. And then even in post, and it's like, you know what, we shouldn't call it. But they're a leafless branch. We should call it Crimson Sky because anyone who looks ahead on chapters on the is going to sit there and think, oh, here's where it comes. And then it's just really going to piss off all the people I want to piss off and excite people

who doesn't. So it's like, again, you know, it's like listening to the characters and the material and just sort of accidentally coming to some good answers is really what a lot of their work was here. And trolling the prestige TV fan. That's right. That's very smart. And anybody on Hulu who looks ahead, you know, like, um, Justin, I, you know, you just basically talked about, like, the role chance and backlogging stuff work, how that works when you're assembling a show. My question had been whether or not what the kind of conversations went into having this happen in the penultimate episode rather than the last episode of the season. Because, you know, I, I personally

love it when a series has a penultimate episode that feels like a finale into itself and maybe the finale is a little bit more of a coda. The wire used to do that in a really brilliant way often. What kind of conversations went into where this was going to happen in the course of the season? Yeah. I mean, you're right that it's, I mean, it's very much like a classic HBO prime HBO, kind of convention, right? And it was something that we were definitely, like, aware of in the plotting. But a lot of it was led by the book. There is just a lot in the book after Mariko's death.

And, you know, I sometimes personally forget just how shocking the death feels because it doesn't come in what appears to be any triumph whatsoever, right? Now, we know, as people have lived in the book for as long as we have, oh yeah, this is the great moment when she finally does this. But when you're reading it, and I guess when you're watching the show, you know, it's just like, you know, dies in taking a loss. Well, that, see, Toranauga showed them. I mean, it really doesn't feel like a win at all.

It takes, you know, Torinaga to extract it or to have it extracted out of him by, in the show's case, Yavishige, you know, on his knees, to really feel like a, you know, something that feels like a, you know, something that feels like a win. So we knew we had to have an episode that could unpack it. And to sort of have that space. And so I don't think, I mean, I'm trying to remember if we ever had, I know that there were times when we were considering splitting the exact moment of her death across episodes. But I think that was ultimately a real challenge too. Are you guys hearing the kids? This was the focus group that said, no, no, no, it's got to be the penultimate.

Yeah. But, you know, it's just there's, So much left to do. What was hard following Merrico's death at the end of nine was finding a way to keep Merrico in 10 because we realized on early passes of the scripts and everything that she was just gone and our heart had been ripped out. And so it was a challenge to find ways to kind of keep her alive. One might say it's still a challenge. And something that's still at our, you know, always on, you know, the tip of our tongue because we, you know,

it's an important thing to acknowledge is the way the character holds at the center of the show. Obviously, one of the centerpieces of the show, literally in the middle of the episode, is the jaw-dropping nine-minute sequence in which Mariko attempts to leave the castle. And it is brilliantly staged.

We should shout out Frederick Toy, the director, as well. Like, it is dramatic. It is exciting. It is violent. It is also theatrical in a very beautiful way with the audience up in the eaves watching this show unfold. a few questions about that scene, but I kind of wanted to just start with Anna and ask you,

what do you remember about that day or days, depending how long it took to actually film that sequence? You said you shot chronologically. I wondered how you felt where you were with the journey. And again, what you remember about that time? I think I was very excited. I know that people are like, oh my God, it must have been so tough, but it felt like I could just do whatever I wanted almost. I was really excited about doing the sword fight, of course, but it also just gave me so much power within mentally to be able to go to the cards and tell them to let me leave and make a statement because she never had the permission to really stand up and, you know, say everything that she said in that scene. I can't remember how many days we shot that scene, but I think it was maybe like

three days, was it? Am I right? two days. Three plus with other little elements, but I think it was three solid days of the actual you down there with the football game. Right. It was, I guess, three days. We only had maybe like one big rehearsal

because we were shooting. So it was a lot. But I think that it really helped being able to perform that scene for the first time in front of everyone as well because I was nervous doing it in front of everyone, but also kind of like, I'm going to show you. So to me, it was a very exciting one.

There's two aspects of your performance in the scene that just radiate power. One is your voice, the way you're holding your body, the way you're directing your charisma at these people standing in your way. And the other is when you actually have a giant weapon and you're swinging at people. I wondered which of those acts made you feel more powerful in which you enjoyed more. in the context of the character? I think both. They both feed each other. With Mariko, I know that she knows that she's not gonna get hurt.

Like no one's actually gonna kill her there. So she kind of has that freedom to just whip that sword. But also that statement is kind of everything. So I think that they, without one another, it would have felt a little bit like something was lacking. So I would say both physically and for a bit verbally both were great. To Rachel and Callan, like, especially on the rewatch, I really noted, because I definitely

wasn't, and I think no one watching this episode has ever looked at their watches during the scene, but I did note the second time through that it was over nine minutes. And I feel like in television these days, like, you cannot get a nine-minute scene unless it is a giant samurai battle called Crimson Sky, and this wasn't that. How did you go about crafting the scene, paring it down to what was necessary, and understanding what was necessary to give us what we got? Well, first of all, it's nine minutes because of our stage directions, because that's how we write. It's just these lengthy paragraphs.

I don't know how many pages in the book are devoted to this one scene, but I remember, I feel like you could measure the amount of pages with a ruler. It's a very, very, very dense part of the book because it is so momentary. as far as breaking it down goes, Callan, this is kind of where. Yeah, we just, we tried to be super specific, which I think was really, really helpful. Also because we had like, that was like a difficult stage of production where a lot of key members of the crew got COVID. There was a lot of people on Zoom. Literally everybody was like on Zoom remotely. It was very difficult. Did people on set start coughing and then turn to Justin and Rachel and say it was an honor to serve you before they were taken away?

Yeah, it was like poetic that it happened during such a like climactic thing of like everyone wanted to be there for this moment. And then like so many people couldn't, which was really difficult. But like so many iPads. So many iPads. Yeah. People just holding iPads up so other people can see. That's how we meet Anna with iPads. But also bubble raptor so she didn't get COVID.

Right? Like you have to do both. I don't know. I feel like there were, it was actually like people had to be, like I remember we had to do a passive, like adding in more of the people watching because like initially like our focus is so much on her journey

and like what we want like her emotional state to be at what point. And like what she is just so aware of everyone who is dying on her behalf. Like how this fight progresses is like you just want to watch it on her face. It's not as much about like. the action and everything. So then I remember like after our initial version being like, oh my God, we really do have to service Black Thorne's witnessing of this as well. Whereas like in the first, I think initial version, it was like just what is she going through on the ground? That's like the only part that like we care about emotionally. So I think like it always had to grow from

that side of it. But yeah, it didn't after like the early versions, it didn't change very much. Like the amount of arrows to hit the ground were the same. The amount like the last guy who fell is always that like it was always so specific. And it stayed the same for like, long time. The one thing that I remember when reading it, and I'm so I so wish we could have included it, was the bit after when she finds a corner by herself. And the way

that you see it in her mind and the way that Anna, or what you would have seen with Anna, is that the collapse, just the collapse of her, not only her body, but just the brokenness of years cost. The weight of all of that. Like, yeah.

But always when no one's thing. Which I think the only reason we didn't need it is the scream, Anna, that you give at the end of the fight is so incredible that it's like, oh, that is what she's feeling. Like, we didn't need that extra moment of seeing her by herself. And it was like, that scream always speaks to me like so much of like.

Oh my gosh. Is she never by herself in this episode? Do we never see her by herself? Very briefly. In episode, episode, she slips off. In this episode. In this episode, like right before Blackburn comes to her after she doesn't get to Pets Hepeoku, she's very briefly alone. But yeah, she's almost always, like, surrounded. Yeah, we had a couple of scenes that we shot where she was alone or with her Giju, for ladies in waiting.

But yeah, it was never used. I was about to ask why we didn't use that part where she does break down by herself. But that makes sense. Thanks. Thanks, everyone for giving Anna, the chance to ask. That's why we cut that scene. Have you been waiting for that question? Take six of the scene was like, I thought, really good.

What's up with that? It was actually so beautiful because it started raining just in that moment. Yeah. So it's very beautiful. Yeah. But what I will say about what Callan mentioned, which is that the kind of the gutteral groans, we've been trying to describe what it was that Anna, her,

or she was able to manage with her performance. But like it was, I think somebody described it as her just coming to the very end of this specific journey, kind of the end of herself and throwing everything into it. And initially, when I first started seeing cuts, I remember thinking, oh, that's too raw. You know, like that's, that's so, that's intense. And I didn't realize this, but it's Ica who, I assume they would, they would take it out. And I assume they would, you know, quote unquote, soften it or do something. And I think it was Ica who said, our editor who said, absolutely not, this has to be in there.

And I think it's because that was Ica's way of connecting with that character so specifically that she had to keep it in there. And I think that was exactly the right choice. Because I also remember when we were shooting it, I think it was a hero who came to me. He was like just try to keep it as in as possible because she probably wouldn't let her voice crack like that. And I was really trying, but I guess with everything, I just couldn't hold it in. And so that's very interesting that she decided to keep it there. I'm interested in this idea of modulation too, Anna, because the character is so,

keeps everything so close to the vest throughout. And then yet in this episode, there are a number of moments that feel like breaking points. One we didn't mention is when she sort of snaps back at Ishido in a way that is viscerally shocking, even though it's just words early on when she scolds him about his manners. Another moment is the one we're speaking of now. And then there is also an agonizing moment when she is about to end her own life and then has that opportunity to do so taken from her at the very last second. And there's another moment of release. As a performer riding the waves of this episode, how did you consider the different – moments of buildup and release, you know, so that it builds throughout her own journey as opposed to

feeling like the same beat over and over again, for example. I mean, I think that it wouldn't have it would never have felt like the same beat because there's so different scenes and she's talking to very different people and she's making different statements in every single scene. I don't know The scene with Ishido It's her first It's the first display Of what she's about to do

And then with the sepica scene I think it's a much more quiet Scene I was thinking about the sun Leaving the sun because the sun was sitting Right in front of her And so it was a more Somber kind of scene And the last

The sword fighting scene is Aggression a lot of aggression but also kind of using her power, but coming together quietly and then leaving. I can't really explain it well, but it felt like very different scenes to me. And I'm kind of like living in the moment. As an actor, I feel like I try to analyze things,

but I'm just like in it. So maybe Rachel or can analyze it a little better. I was re-watching this, so I hadn't watched it since Andy and I first recapped it. I'm not sure. Have you, I don't know if you've all watched it as like viewers, right? Like,

just like, oh, let's just watch Crimson Sky for a reason outside of making it. Watch that door blow off and feel the character. That's right. But it was interesting to me how like structured it was in terms of these series of tests that this character faces, which obviously has this relationship to the first conversation she has with,

with Father Martin, where it was just like this idea of, you know, he gives her this crucifix and it's for when you don't have the words and you need something to hold on to. And then her faith is essentially tested what five or six times throughout the episode like politically in terms of her as a mother, as a friend, as a lover, as a, you know, a woman. I was wondering whether or not when you're making a show, is it, we got it, this is the A plot and this is the B plot and we have to make this work because then we have to go back and backfill this. with narrative? Or are you having conversations about like, this will be a series of test? This will be thematically how we want people to kind of feel after the end of the episode. I think that's a little bit of a wonky way of asking how much you change your opinion about something that

you've written after you get to watch it as an audience. Wow. I was going one way in my mind. Yeah. Sorry. Well, I think after watching it, it felt very somehow separate. from the time in which I read it on my own and then was in the writer's room and then wrote this with Callan. It feels like every phase with this character was in and of itself kind of, you know, speaking to a version of my own self, you know, as we went along. So it did deepen, but it was a very different thing seeing it all together because it felt like it felt very intentional. But a lot of it was very creatively chaotic, I think. You know, this is stuff that we were building and putting together as we were, you know,

figuring, or Justin was figuring out how to do the show. So, again, always back to process. It just came back to. And by the way, the show took so long. We changed over time. So I do think that we deepened as people, as writers, as performers. because don't forget, I was in episode eight. You know what I mean?

All five years, we're going to be different people from beginning to end. So I had a question about the, this is kind of a high concept question. So I'm going to go slow. But basically, in the very end of the episode, the Shinobi you're at the door. They're about to blow the whole thing up. And there is a moment when we see. Americo know what she must do and the decision is made and she obviously makes this decision herself. Anjan has no idea what's going on and no one else has any idea what's going on.

That very specific moment, I'd like to ask the three, I'll ask Callan and Rachel as the writers of the scene and as the performer of the scene and Justin, maybe you could take the overview of in the edit bay. I know Rachel was there as well, I'm sure, but like the question is what did you guys want or need in that moment. So starting with Rachel and Callan, to get that specific moment of acknowledgement and knowledge that she experiences on the page and as you were imagining it, what did you feel like you needed to have there to earn, honestly, to earn the episode?

It's really hard. I feel like it is such a mixed, a mixed bag because you do want, it is kind of a triumphant moment for her. Like she does achieve something so meaningful in her. death, she gets to make this statement that she wants. But like throughout the episode, when she is saying all of these goodbyes and you see like facing death, even though it's been this like, death has been a part of her life for so long and she's been wanting death for so long. It's never easy in like any of the moments where it is a possibility. It's so difficult for her to face.

So I feel like you want to feel the weight of that. This isn't like a, it's not purely a good thing for her, obviously. Like it's so tragic when she does go up against that door, but it is also, there is the inevitability and she is making it mean what she needs it to mean for herself. It's not like a political thing anymore. It is like just for her to win, but I'm basically you could probably put it much more eloquently than that. Not really. I think I think you're right. The moment, I remember thinking this is right to kind of weirdly quiet things just to make sure.

that you feel that she is in her own atmosphere, a world of her own making, and she is finally existing the exact way that she wants to and taking this final step towards the door. And I don't know, I just wanted to, I wanted to personally feel how I felt when I read the book, which was this very quiet moment where she was her purest version of who she was.

She wasn't the Mariko whose father was treacherous. She wasn't the Mariko who had this contentious relationship with her husband and on and on and on. She was just just her. And I know that you made that change where she says her birth name, not her married name. Yeah, that was really important. And like I was actually, I did rewatch it last night as a viewer, which is weird. I usually don't. Like, I watched all the other episodes.

What did you think? Oh, my God. It was actually the most I've cried for it. it because of all the separation. And also the season two of it all, it was very emotional. But like all the other episodes I've watched like a hundred times and nine I could never watch as much.

And watching it last night, I was like really struck in a way that like I hadn't thought about since we were on set of the reactions of the other characters. Like even Yabushige is like so struck by this, like the space that they're giving her and the quiet that comes over Kiri and like her lady in waiting and everybody except for like obviously Blackthorn is like still in denial about the. inevitability, but everyone else feels this incredible moment for her and gives her this respect to.

Like, kind of under, like, there's a couple of minutes of that, like, hanging in the air. It feels like a whole minute, even if it's not that long of everyone realizing what's going to happen and just like being silent for her in this really kind of beautiful way. Anna, what did you feel that you needed in that moment, both as the performer, but also as the caretaker of this incredible woman over the previous, now eight and a half episodes? I feel like it's such a kind of strange way to end her life because it's a moment of a couple of seconds. And so I think there have to be a sense of clarity that she was choosing it for herself. And it needed to feel like she was okay, like she was sure of what she was doing.

And so I think there was a brief moment of her looking back at the door and looking at Blackthor and just kind of feeling, you know, like, oh, this is, is this going to be the moment? But when she does stand in front of the door, the resolution that she has on her face, it's so clear. And I think that that's kind of what made it so powerful. And, Justin, to you now thinking about it, once you had the assembled footage and you're making it a show now,

it's not just pages, it's not just the scene on the day. Yeah, I mean, even a step before having the scene shot, I mean, that was a really hard scene to film for the crew. Not just, I mean, obviously, it seemed like Anna had a bunch of hard things to do. So, you know, that's important too. But there was, you know, we were, as Callan was saying, this was right around the schedule, and we were just really gutted by COVID across the board. So we had to shoot this scene really over like three different days in small pieces

because almost none of those cast members could be on the same space together. each one got, you know, kind of pushed out or tested out or contacted out in one way or another, right, at some point in that process. And I think in the end, you know, movie gods really wanted it to be that way because there's a nature of that scene that is you've got two men who think they know what the scene is about. And two very strong-willed actors playing those men who also did. And I think that there was this character of Merrico who very much knew what the scene was about. And these two characters were going to spend the rest of their lives, one much shorter than the other, you know, thinking about what happened that night in that moment. And when you have that, normally you're like all three on the same set together.

And it's like, you know, you can't help but sort of filter off each other and use each other. That's what's great about shooting and acting and everything else is that there's a chemistry. sometimes the lack of, we weren't, you guys weren't afforded a chance to have any chemistry because everyone was just in different places. And it really worked because it felt like Cosmo was in one scene and Taranova was in another scene, but Anna was in the real scene. And you feel it watching and we took advantage of it cutting it where there's an energy that both of them are bringing in their manicness and they're sort of like, we got to do this

and what about this? And why would I do this? I need to pull this thing across. And all of that is just, you know, actors finding their way through the sets as they're trying to kind of logic their way into it. And at the end of the day, we got to shoot Anna in this kind of clean single on the other side of the set. So just all on our own, just playing the emotional truth of it. And the cut of that was allowing that tension to sort of go back and forth. And then, you know, I don't know, the only other thing I'll say about the cut of that that I'm most proud of.

and finding what was found in the cut of it was that one shot we had shot on a phantom of Anna and her hair blowing out in this sort of moment of the heat of the explosion. We always struggled with where to put it, and we really wanted her speech to be interrupted and to be just sudden death, and there we are, which it is. But there were other options offered up at various points in the shooting and cutting. and we went with this version that did it, but took that shot and put it out of sequence so that you cut to her face after we've seen the door blow. That's so weird that you mentioned that. I kind of felt like there was something unique about that watching that today.

And the real goal of that was to sort of solidify that idea of these three different versions of the scene, that that was the first and only time we cut to Blackthorne's point of view in the scene, and it was his point of view from hindsight, his memory of that moment. That's what will stick in his head for the rest of his life. And so we end hers in the way it deserves

and then we just hit that to sort of carry that idea over into credits so that we'll remember that. But it was just a fine and sort of a gut and I really like it watching it. Everyone fought against it. Let me tell you. Not in the crew, but on the other side and I'm really glad that we have it.

It was a fun Uniscovered. Yeah, that's beautifully said, and it works beautifully in the episode. Yeah, it almost looks like a drawing that's fading, like right in front of your eyes or something. So the idea that it's a memory is amazing. I can tell you how many times people have said, did she didn't, she just kind of got a concussion, right? Well, I hate to break it to you. Well, people also wanted that to be the case.

Was Anna one of those people asking? John Landgraf was saying that once he renewed the show. It's like, are we sure? Speaking of that, I just want to promise you guys, this episode is so beautifully structured and so well executed that it would probably, we'd be here talking about this if she did only get a concussion. It's not just because it is a surprise for people

who haven't read the book character death. With that acknowledged and with the passage of time, you filmed this quite some time ago, and you've had some time to reflect and also to win a lot of well-deserved awards for your work here. I would love it if you could each be honest with me and let me know, who tried to blink first? At what point was someone like, do we have to kill her?

Like, was it in the writer's room? Was it brought up? Did Anna ever pull everyone aside when COVID was ravaging the set and say, like, look, you just might need me. It's a numbers game at this point. Was there ever any wavering? Sadly, everyone wanted me off. No. It was, I think it's just because it was too important.

Yeah. We don't have a story without it, you know? Also, you guys were making a limited series, so, come on. There's fine. Like, please let her out of this prison. Like, we gave her, you know, she was, she was liberated in what she did. And what torture would we want to concoct on this character? Drag her back in.

Yeah. Who, like, triumphantly destroyed all these, like, systems and got to, like, like say fuck you to everybody and then like achieve her. He had this ultimate goal. It's, I think, yeah, it was the right ending,

but it was very difficult and it has only gotten harder. Like I feel like originally it just because it was part of the book and it was always part of the story and we had never strayed from it. It was just, this is the way it is and it's so tragic. And now with hindsight, it's like, oh my God,

it's so difficult. I can't believe that we had to lose her. But it's a big loss. It wouldn't be the same. if it didn't happen and it wouldn't have this impact. So it's the way it should have been. I'm still personally pulling for some kind of Garrett Dilla Hunt Deadwood situation where you come back as a second,

a different character. The evil twin. Yeah. There's just so much and, you know, obviously we don't like, we don't need to get into to the part two of it all. But the, you know, there's, there are some things that I think, you know, television has a way of resurrecting.

characters and movies have a way of emulating television now and doing the same thing in a world where then there are no stakes. And, you know, I just feel like one of the things that we're really working our way through, you know, Call and Rachel myself, the other writers in the room and sort of talking about, you know, the future is really it's okay to want something and not get it and really kind of processing some of those feelings. What's not okay in our opinion, is to pretend that we don't want it. And I see that sometimes in shows when you lose somebody you love. They try to sort of pretend.

It's like, well, look at all those other cats. We're fine. We're fine. And it's like, no, what's, you know, honestly, and this spoils like nothing. Zero. But if, you know, in some ways that the first part is all, is a show about death in a lot of ways. We really see part two for us all as writers and for the characters on the show in terms of where they're at in unexpected ways.

it's you know it's very much a show about grief and i don't think we explore grief that much in in the safe zone of television because we have so many ways to get out of it and the the medium itself tries to deny that we need to lose anybody or anything that we like and you know i think we're better off for it if we can if we can look at it honestly i think that's very well said and i know that you uh found yourself emotional just a you know a few minutes ago and we were talking about it. Are you surprised to still be talking about Merrico this long after you filmed these these long days on set, this long after the show aired? Yeah. I mean, I didn't expect this at all. I feel like when people started talking about awards, it was just like, oh, you know,

in another world, that would be amazing, but I didn't really believe it would happen. And so now that this is happening and, you know, we're still being nominated and we get to talk about these scenes an episode that's just I feel so lucky. I hope that I really stop crying when I talk about because people now will probably think that I'm crazy. But yeah, I'm very surprised. Well, we really appreciate it. I also appreciate that when you said awards, you didn't mean the Emmy that you won and the Golden Globe that you were all nominated for today. You meant this specific arbitrary podcast award that you probably heard about when your team emailed you. This is sort of the icing on the cake. It's a dream come true. It's okay. We don't have to say.

We were waiting for this. You guys laughed, but this was, we were, Rachel and I were just on with John Langraff and the group going over some notes. And we said, we have to go. We have this podcast. And they quickly hastily at the end just said, oh, congratulations. It's like, we haven't talked about it. And I was like, thank you. I know.

It's my favorite podcast. He's not joking, by the way. That's very, very kind. I'm glad we get ended on us. you know, let's bring it home. But really, thank you to all of you for your time, for your being in, I think we're in three time zones, and we still somehow made this work very, very generous of all of you. And most of all, thank you for the beautiful episode.

Yeah, thank you so much. One for the ages. And we loved it. And we love any chance we get to talk about it with you all. Thank you, Bob. Thank you guys. Thanks, guys.