The Watch - The Best TV Episode of the Year

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Chris and Andy are joined by 'The Bear' creator Christopher Storer and actor Ebon Moss-Bachrach to talk about their favorite episode of TV from this year: "Forks." First they talk with Christopher Storer about wanting to make a quieter episode in "Forks" after the loudness and commotion of "Fishes" (5:47). Then, Ebon Moss-Bachrach joins the show as well to talk about some of the isolation that came with making an episode solely about Richie (30:38), and getting to act with Olivia Colman (51:32). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Chris Storer and Ebon Moss-Bachrach Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Sallick, and I'm the host of Bandsplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop sports. psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy,

and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move

forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, stodging. It's Andy Greenwald. I'm excited about today. Oh, man. So this is a really special episode, Andy. We have not done this before in our entire history of the watch, but today we are bestowing a special award on a TV program from the year of 2021. We are giving out a best episode of the year award. I don't, it doesn't come with any silverware, hardware, hardware, trophies. It could come with forks. It could come with forks because

it is the episode Forks from this season of the bear. It aired June 22nd, 2003, as all of the season of the bear did, because it just got dumped on Hulu, which is not a bad thing. It is something you can just sort of like immerse yourself in over a weekend as we did. And let's talk a little bit about the context of the episode. So you get through the first half of the season and it kind of seems to peak with the much talked about fishes. And we had a funny thing happen where we decided we were going to give this.

episode of the year to The Bear, and I thought we were giving it to fishes, even though you thought we were giving it to Forks. Well, I knew we were giving it to Forks, and I texted you Forks, but to be clear. I skipped that text. I'm sorry. That's fine. I send you a lot of text. It speaks to the excellence of this show, and the amazing tenor and fever pitch it hit in the middle of the season where I thought it was one episode, you met another, we could have both been right. Yes, and I think that there, people who agree with us, I think both of us had the bearers a number one show of the year on our podcast last week. Within that, people may, people may, oh, that's right, all three of us did.

People may agree with our decision, but I think reasonable people could disagree as to which was the best. At the end of the day, and I think, you know, we alluded to this last week when we talked about it, I think the Ethan Hawk episode of Reservation Dogs, I think the flashbacks episode of Beef, I think that the big two of the season of succession, a bunch of berry. All of these were in contention. But at the end of all that for me, I thought Forks was just an absolutely transcendental experience of watching something. It is a show finding its voice at the peak of its powers, grabbing the wheel, blasting a Taylor Swift song, and just driving into something that I didn't. I don't even know if the people making the show thought they were capable of. It leaves the restaurant for the first time in a real way.

It focuses on Richie, who is one of, you know, building up to this episode, one of the great supporting characters of our time. and drops him in the worst possible place for him, which is something fancy, something rigid, something built on a different kind of rigor and respect, and something remarkable happens, something that runs counter to what a lot of the great TV shows of the past decades have taught us, which is people just maybe are capable of change.

So you mentioned the people who made this show and whether or not they expected the response they got to Forks. We were lucky enough to be joined, as the rest of our podcast will be by two, previous guests of the show. Chris Storer, who is the director of the episode of Forks, he's director of many of the episodes of The Bear. He is the creator of the show,

and he's the co-show runner of the Bear. We were also joined later in the podcast with Chris, Eben Moss Backrack, coming back to talk about Richie's journey in this episode, to talk about his relationship to this episode, which I thought was really fascinating to hear from him as a performer, as an actor. And just get a little time with Cousin and Chris, man. It was pretty awesome. a really great experience for us. We were really grateful to their generosity for joining us.

Just to be clear, so people understand. So Chris joined us in the studio. We're going to cut, we're going to throw to our beginning of our talk with him in a moment. Evan was joining us via Zoom from his home in Brooklyn. He looked fantastic. You'll hear about the beautiful golden light. It will come as no surprise to anyone who loves the bear that the show is as much about, seems to be as much about community behind the camera as it is in terms of what we end up watching. Yeah. The dynamic between Chris and Evan is one built on now clearly friendship, but also a lot of creative trust. And it was fun to see kind of Chris step up to the mic and start

questioning Evan in ways that maybe we weren't able to because, you know, A, we don't know him, B, he wasn't in the room. And C, we mostly just wanted to talk about Andor, let's be honest. No, we, this is a, this was a really cool one for us and I hopefully, for you listeners too, because this is a really like, this is a behind the music type episode of the watch.

Like, we just dug into one episode with two people directly involved in it, start to finish. So if you haven't rewatch Forks recently, I would do. I would do. I think it's, it's probably helpful. to rewatch Forks now, and it's only like 33 minutes long, and it'll still blow your top off. I watched it like three or four times for this episode. You could also pull a CR and watch six minutes of fishes and then text me. If you have my number. Fishes is real good, man. And then fire up. That's fine, too. Andy, let's get into our conversation with Chris Dorr and then later, the three of us are

joined by Eben Moss-Back. Thanks for listening. Thanks to Kaia McMuller for producing. And congratulations to FX's the bear for making the watch podcast episode of the year. Yes. All right, Andy, we are so, so lucky to be joined by the creator of the bear, the director of the bear, Christopher Store, coming back for the second time on the watch, and for a very special purpose this time, because we wanted to try and do something a little bit different with our year-end podcasting this year. This is a new holiday tradition.

It starts now. We've decided to bestow the first ever, I guess, episode. of the year award. Well, so what do we, is it like the watchies? What are we going to call this? I don't know, but it's like, we talked a lot about what we wanted to do at the end of the year, and we talked a lot about the TV that really meant something to us. And the episode Forks of Season 2 of the Bear really kind of stood above everything.

And we're so happy to have Chris here to talk to us about this amazing piece of television. Man, that means a lot, guys. I'm lucky to be here. This is really cool to be the first recipient of a prestigious new tradition. Do you want to begin this conversation? we're going to list the other runner-ups and you can just talk show. Oh, no, that's right.

Bang, bang, bang. Don't even tell me. The pilot of lioness, uh, like what else? Another Sheridan universe. The second watch of lioness. Yeah. That's right. Man, so this is a little bit behind the scenes, but Andy and I had this funny conversation where he was like, we're going to do this.

Like, we were excited and he was like, we got Chris. And I was like, great. And I was all ready to do fishes. I was like, I thought we were going to do fishes, which says a lot about the show that these two episodes could be considered either one of them could be considered one of the best episodes of television of the year. And, you know, obviously, like, I think that Fish's is like this huge standout.

It's this epic episode in comparison to some of the others, runtime-wise, cast-wise, emotionally. But there's something about forks that, I think, almost out of its economy, it feels huge to me. And that's not really a question. But when you think about, let's start here, when you think about forks in relationship to fishes,

how important was it for you in terms of sequencing in terms of where those things happened in the season to have that kind of, for lack of a better term, feel good after feel bad? Yeah, I think it's a good... First of off, again, guys, it's awesome to be here. You guys are the best and you've been supportive of the show and it means a lot.

Also, Chris, I want you to know, I didn't want fish, I didn't want to do it. I want to make this a little more contentious. I'm so sick of that shit. How could you even think that, Chris? Well, it's interesting too, because when we were talking about this season in general, before we started writing, I had this conversation with one of my buddies, Robert, who was like, you know, your show doesn't be screaming all the time. And I was like, that's a great point. And it got me in this headspace of like, Joanna and I started talking about it'd be cool to slow it down. We had a little more time. This is Joanna Callow. Your partner, yeah. And I thought we were like, it's a good opportunity to slow things down, but also sort of kind of get into what it feels like to be stuff. which I think is something we all go through. I mean, it's something that I deal with all the time.

Yeah. You know, and I think there's something to be said about finding something when you're not looking for it. And, you know, and sort of, you know, I've directed commercials and stuff in the past. And one spot that we did with Drew and Gary are camera guys from the bear, we were at the French laundry for a week following Thomas Keller around. Is Gavin Newsom there? No, it was, it was right after Tim Hollingsworth left. Okay. But it was this interesting thing because I think fine dining is really easy to make fun of.

Like, I think it, because it is, there's something inherently sort of stuffy. Stuffy and intense about it. But the more we were there, we sort of got into the process of how much everyone cared. Yeah. And how much truly every single little thing in this restaurant meant sort of the world to everybody involved. And when you're in that kitchen underneath all the clocks, there's a sign that sense of urgency. Okay. Which is this, you know, like, you could be like that's so silly, but it's hard to not drink that Kool-A.

Yeah. By the end of the week, we were sort of like, that's pretty dope. And it's sort of stayed with me. And I had also been reading my friend Will Godara's book, Unreasonable Hospitality. And for those that don't know, Will was the co-owner of a love in Madison Park. Right. And in his book, he sort of gets into, the book's really about being thoughtful and showing more attentiveness, attentiveness, whatever business you're in. And I was like, this is really cool if we could connect that to Richie.

somehow, this character that sort of felt lost. So in terms of building the season, we knew that we were going to have moments to be able to spend more time with the characters like we knew I-O was going to be in Chicago. And when we got to that episode, it sort of was like I-O unlocking creativity and gaining some confidence.

And then we went to Copenhagen, and then we were going to be with Molly's character and Karm. So when it came to fishes, we sort of knew we were going to get the backstory of Richie and sort of see what this family is like, and we knew it was going to be loud. So we knew the follow-up should be, kind of quiet.

Yeah. And in terms of like what you said, like feel bad and feel good, I don't necessarily knew that we thought about it like that. We just thought about it. Like, well, we're setting up this stuff about Richie. Now we get to really spend some time with them.

And we were in the more we talked about it, we were like, it would be pretty great to see Richie in a fine dining establishment. And I think the bad version of the show is it sucks and everyone's an asshole. Yeah. And, you know, but to find sort of, you know,

sort of find like joy in the process could be, really interesting. And I think Eben's such a tremendous actor that I knew that it would be the most quiet we'd ever seen him. And I also thought it was another great opportunity to bring in a lot of our friends like Sarah Ramos and Andrew Lopez and Olivia Coleman as a nice reveal at the end. So we didn't put, I don't think we put too much thought into it other than we wanted to follow loud with quiet. Right. And do you, when you break a season of the bear, do you have a fixed sense of, obviously you know where the characters are beginning

coming off the heels of the previous season now, do you have a sense of where you want them to end up? Specifically, with Richie, he covers a lot of ground the season. And this episode is the fulcrum of his transformation, almost from one scene to another. You see it happen. Was that part of your process

in crafting the episode, knowing that you had to get him, you had this many more emotional miles ahead of him? I think we were also like, you know, I've been watching a lot of shows that I think we're out there welcome in terms of like runtime. Not to like talk shit,

I think it's like some episodes, you're like, that was really long, and I know we did the same on fishes, but I thought we were sort of like, if we can keep it exciting enough, I think you'd be into it. And I think on this one, we knew it was going to have to be more contained. So we had to make sort of every scene sort of count in there. And Alex Russell, our writer. Every second count. Yeah. Every second. Like, Alex Russell, who wrote it, did such a beautiful job of making sure everything was efficient, but also, like, quiet and also sort of breaking the, sort of the normal rhythms of our show. Like, there was less talking over each other. And there was a lot more sort of staring at, forks and these complative, you know, quiet moments. And I think, to answer your question, Andy, like, I think we try to just be as efficient as we can with each character. And again, there's no grander idea than that, really, other than we have 27 minutes to get Eben from A to B. I guess I'm interested in it because you are a director, you directed this episode and did a beautiful job. And you also are so, because of that, you're thinking of the story visually. You're thinking of it practically to, in terms of production. Could we get into a, a high-end restaurant. How would we film it? What would it look like? What would it feel like?

What is that conversation like in the writer's room with you and Joanna, Alex Russell, wrote the episode, the rest of the staff, finding the balance between what you need them to say because the dialogue in this episode is beautiful and moving? And also what you know you can get in terms of Evans' performance, a needle drop, the opening sequence in the first act of the episode that is essentially just quick cuts and editing of beautiful food and forks and his face. My footnote to his question is essentially like, is that like what happens if you can't get love story? Like, do you have to go back and do surgery on the whole thing?

No, well, I mean, we, so first and foremost, we're so lucky in Chicago that everyone's, I mean, I love it so much. And we've been so welcomed there. And we were kind of hoping that someone would let us use a kitchen for the day. And I think we got very lucky that ever, which is a great restaurant in Chicago, actually gave us four days. but their crew is also, you know, the chefs and they're actually working in the background. And it was great because my sister was also, like, running a restaurant inside another restaurant.

And my sister, Courtney. And I think it was weird though, because it was the first episode we shot that the whole cast really wasn't there, sort of in the sequence that we shot it. And a lot of times it was just ebbin on his own. And I imagine it might have felt, I should ask him this, I never really talked about it,

but it was like, that must have been kind of weird and lonely that, like, We really just shot him polishing for quite a while, which was different than we'd been used to. And I think the other thing we did, because we knew he was going to sing it, we got Love Story cleared pretty early. Pretty early on.

So we got, and again, like, Taylor was awesome. Everyone was great, and we got very, very lucky with all that stuff. In terms of just the granular script work, what is your method? And I don't mean you, singular, but like the collective, like, are there a lot of drafts? Are there a lot of voices that stay a part of the process even after the room is done? You know, so much of this episode is about precision and refinement.

And in watching it again in preparation for this, I was thinking about how, you know, and we'll get into it more a little bit later. But the conversation between Chef Terry and Ritchie, to my mind, it's perfect. It is, there's no unnecessary piece of it. So how do you, how does that develop within your show? We don't do a bunch of drafts, honestly. think the thing we always talk about a lot in the room is sort of how can we bury the plot as much as possible. Like I'm not as, it's probably, you know, there's probably lots to learn about writing

for me. Like I don't, I don't, like, plot is not my strong suit. Yeah. I think the thing we talk about a lot, though, is how do we keep it low to the ground and important to the people in the show? And because we're making a restaurant show, I feel like the more specific we make it to that industry, sort of the more relatable it is to like other industries, hopefully. just the fact that these little things really mean a lot to the people sort of going through them. So when we talk about an episode,

I think it's really, how do we keep this as human as possible and say what we need to say sort of without using a ton of words? Like how can we do this sort of with the most amount of brevity, I guess? So one of the things that I, in rewatching it and going,

reading some of the stuff that people said about the episode in the first pass. And it was almost like university, universally beloved. But there was an interesting dialogue about like the plausibility of Richie being able to pick up a certain amount of skills in a week. And even within the show itself, I mean, like I think that there are aspects of it that are

needed for TV, right? Like the conversation between Terry and Richie is note perfect, beautiful, but has no hiccups of like, oh, he obviously didn't know it was Terry the second he walked in and it could have been a little bit more awkward. For you when you're trying to plot out like, this has to feel real, but I wanted to feel good, how do you adjust basically for making it good TV versus making it like feel real? Yeah, it's a good question.

I think honestly, it's watching Olivia in Evan. Because I have the same thought where we're like, oh, do we need more? And even Evan was like, is this too quick? And the thing I kept thinking was like, going back to that thing of being stuck,

like, I think a thing can unlock you in 10 seconds. Yeah. You know, and if you're looking for some, you know, if you're looking to be sort of to get out of whatever mud

that you're stuck in, I think you'll grab on to anything, you know, anything that can, and I think because this is about finding him really finding joy and bringing joy to other people, it felt simple enough and clear enough. And by the way, like, you know, that doesn't mean he's going to be great forever. And it doesn't mean that he's changed forever.

But I think, like, even having the Taylor Swift moment, it's like you do have those moments in your life where, because, like, at the end of the day, he, you know, trimmed mushrooms with a chef. Like, let's keep in mind. Like, it's like, Nothing really changed in his life. But it's like that connection with another human really meant so much to him that I feel like

that moment when you are unblocked and driving home and you have a good day and you're singing to a Taylor Swift song is like it made perfect sense to me. I love that the way you phrased that because one of the things that I was saying when we were talking about the show week to week this episode and others was that it just seemed like you and your collaborators just believed in this project of dining, a fine dining as a system that can make a different. in people's lives that people can as ascribe to, you were very credulous of this as just an enterprise. Hearing you talk about this now and really thinking about it in the terms of this episode, Richie wants to be a believer. Richie is looking for a church and he finds a church.

So the episode is shot through with that sensibility, right? He is saved in a sense. It is secular, but it's pretty religious. Yeah. What happens to him. Yeah, and I also think it's like, again, I think when you're building a restaurant or building any business, there's so much downtime

that again, you're grabbing on to anything that sort of floats by and one of the things that I thought was kind of special about just the process of it is, you know,

I think I told you guys last time, but watching our actors sort of do this really is everything. Like for me personally, it's the most fun I've ever had doing anything

and we're very lucky to have like a cast that they can do a lot without saying a lot. So I think when we were shooting it, we kept thinking, like, yes, it's fine dining. And yes, it's like a fancy place. But also, like, it could have been working at Target. It could have been working anywhere.

And I think that kind of connection into whatever he was doing, I think he was just looking for it at that moment. Before we go to Evan, I wanted to ask you a few things about the episode visually. Because when I rewatched it, I realized how consistent it was, tonally, visually. But there's this decided shift over the course of the episode from like a kind of icy cold loneliness, which I think Evan does an amazing job expressing when he's like outside the door of the restaurant the first time. He's like, fuck. You know, like I got to go in this thing. To and, you know, the thief music is playing and all that, you know, it has these Michael Man vibes to by the two thirds into it. You know, Taylor Swift is playing. Everybody's playing grab ass. It's so much fun back there and he wants to stay. How do you make these little like, tonal changes without changing the way you're shooting it, without changing the way he's performing his part necessarily. It's not just music needle drops. Can you give us a little bit of a sense of how you mapped it out?

So he starts at like 5 a.m. on that first day and it's icy blue. And I also thought, you know, there's subtle nods to some Michael Mann and Ridley Scott stuff in there too. But we also, by the way, I love the Ridley Scott countdown with fantasy. Oh, that was great. What a wild career. Yes. Just like 10 years of bad movies. But it's just, yeah.

Yeah, it's just very interesting. But I think it's also like slowly, you know, our gaffers are amazing. And I think like the restaurant itself is getting consistently brighter throughout the episode. And it's also an episode where we didn't move the camera as much as we normally do. And we kind of really slowed down. And also like there's great, there's some great Trent Reisner and Atticus demos at the beginning that we sort of float in there. And so we kind of just created that he was like in a different planet for a while. And then slowly came to adapt to this place that was ultimately very welcoming.

Yeah. When Chris is talking about the turn in the episode and you can feel it, just the temperature change and the light change, there's also a moment just in terms of watching it that I was struck by again, even on a rewatch, where the moment when he has the scene with

Gileon on the phone and then it becomes very tangerine dreamy and then when he goes into work for, I don't know what day it is in his week, but suddenly there's a day when Garrett greets him and says, No More Forks, you're with me. First time I watched the episode, I was like, is this a dream sequence? Is he getting what he wants?

Because this is not the tenor of Garrett or the restaurant for the first few days. Obviously, it's not a dream sequence. And he makes the most of this opportunity. And he comes alive in a way that serves the character. It serves the show. It makes our favorite episode of the year. I wanted to ask you about that turn. Yeah. Specifically.

And also in terms of what that says about what you feel like this show is capable of. Because I think a lot of people say, oh, it's realistic because you show knife work or you go to real restaurants. but it's not a documentary and intentionally so. There's an element of fantasy to it. 100%. And I think it was, I think we wanted it to feel a little dreamy and a little surreal,

but also it's like we got the great tangerine dream cue from Thief to sort of, that sort of change the pace a little bit, but also it was like, again, one of those things where he's just thrown into something that ultimately is going to provide him some solace that he's looking for.

And you're not sure if he's going to be on board for this thing. And I think in terms of like what we can do on the show, it's like I really like sharp turns, particularly in a world where we're like, is it a comedy or a drama? I'm like, I don't know. Like, I thought it was kind of cool to just change that up for a second and change the tenor of it. And maybe someone called out sick that day and they needed another server and you got to jump up. Yeah. One thing that parents and showrunners say all the time is that they love all their children equally and they're also all lying.

In terms of this season of television, how do you feel about this? episode in terms of, you know, where your personal feelings about it, the experience is associated with it, and also how you feel you achieved your goals. You know, it's a tricky question to answer because I, you know, you want to say like, oh, I love them all. But the truth is, man, like, we shoot these out of order for the most part. You know, like, there is so much block shooting. And I think genuinely, like, I feel so grateful to spend the time with these people, you know,

and I feel like a lot of responsibility to our cast and our crew and our writers and our producers that you want the thing to be good. But, you know, going back to, like, the process thing that Richie's looking for, like, we have a fucking awesome time at work, dude.

And I know that's, like, not always the case. And I think about it a lot, which is, like, you know, our crew works so fast, dude. Like, our days are very short by design. And I think I love all the episodes equally just because at the end of the day, I'm like, man, that was fucking cool.

Like, everyone got along. Or you remember something that somebody watches. Yeah, like, you know what I remember. I remember about that day, honestly, was like, you know, I.O. came and hung out, because she's watching monitors and she's going to start directing stuff. And it's like, it just felt like everyone came over to this weird restaurant that we were at. They were shooting at and just hung out. And Eben happened to be acting. And then Olivia Coleman was there. And it was a very strange thing. And I think also having like Adam Shapiro and Andrew and René Gube, who's one of our writers, plays one of the general

managers, it just felt like all our friends were there and it was a great time. But then, again, I think I look at like fishes, which is, you know, like you said, like a kind of feel bad episode. That was equally fun. Yeah. You're talking about our guy, Shappy pretzel. Shappie pretzel? I haven't had them yet. I heard they're awesome.

They're really good. I mean, you're talking to two Philadelphia boys, so we respect Adams work. Yeah, yeah. That's high praise. I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here, but sort of part of the reason why we wanted to come back other than it's awesome to see you again is this is our episode of the year. And there's something that happens. like you're watching something and this happened

a bunch of times this year in succession on Barry on slow horses where I've been like 15 minutes into something and I'm like man they're fucking doing it like this is really happening and there's that feeling you get I remember having that feeling during their front night at lights pilot like you're just like

it's a feeling it's slightly different than going to see a movie because I feel like you almost imagine all the people in all the living rooms having this experience too it's something strange where it's like disconnect but connected at the same time. And I don't mean to put you on the spot, but are there episodes of TV that come to mind that have made you feel that way before?

Like, when you're watching and you're kind of hit out of nowhere by like, oh my God, man, this is really, this is really happening when I'm watching. Yeah, I think, you know, more and more, I'm just sort of, you know, TV's a grind and I'm very lucky to be able to do it.

And I have the same feeling about movies sometimes where you're like, that's a fucking miracle. Yeah. Like, and I felt that way about Friday. By the way, Friday Lights is a show that I really love, but I feel that way, you know, I'm watching stuff that haters doing on... A Barry. And I'm like, holy shit, dude. Like, how did you even get that?

Like, the episode with the dude behind Sarah in the house. Yeah, I was like, that shit's fucking out of control. But also, like, so impressive and quiet and really, like, staggering. But then also I'll see, like, episodes of shadows that I think are truly, like, some of the funniest things I've seen that I'm sort of like, oh, man, I don't. don't know how to do that. So sometimes I look at the stuff of like, God, that's hard to do. Like, I remember there's a shot in Mad Men of like John Ham staring at like the elevator doors closing. And I was like, man, that was why. That was terrible. But I feel like it's, it's funny because I, I'm really glad my Chris, you're all, you're our Chris too. Yeah, our Chris one, Chris Prime.

Yeah, yeah. Brought up in terms of like, we have, we have questions for you about process. And we have questions for Evan about process too. But the reason why for me, like this is the episode of the year is because it was a distillation of what I love most in anything, which is, I love the plot, I love the characters, I love the framing, I love the production, but there are moments when all that goes away, and it's just a punch to the emotional solar plexus. And there are two times watching this episode, not for the first time when I get choked up, I got choked up watching it. And again, we'll talk to Evan about performance, but when Richie invites Tiffany to the concert and you stay on Gillian's face and her reaction is devastating.

And that's not scripted. You know, you can't, you can't prep for that, right? And the Taylor Swift moment, you know, and just the, and Richie's happiness. Seeing a character achieve happiness. Like, we can talk to you forever about script notes and rooms, but like, that's the extra shit. No, I mean, that's really nice to you guys. It means a lot. I think the thing that's so interesting is, I think, going back to your question about, like,

writer's rooms, I think the thing that we talk about a lot is how do we just keep it alive? You know, like, how do we make it just feel alive? And not necessarily like we want to go for emotion, but it's, again, our fucking actors are so good, dude. Like, I watch I.O. and I'm sort of like, that was not great writing. And she fucking killed that. Like, stuff that I had written, you know what I mean? Like, I was a whole episode where she has to react to tasting things. I can't imagine anything hard. And, like, even when she makes the, like, the moments, you know, when she made the omelet for Abby, like, Abby, I think is just so tremendous on the show. and I think everyone's just so fucking good

and I think with that specific moment with Eben and Gillian we were we sort of added that like we add a lot of stuff like sort of on the fly and we were shooting in the house for the forks episode

where they're throwing forks not polishing them yes fishes sorry that's Chris Ryan's favorite episode thanks for joining us today we don't speak of it but I was like we had Gil was there and we were like let's go

there was like a room we weren't using the house. And it's like, let's just shoot this end of a conversation. And I think we can sort of put into the other episode. Plug this in later. And then we took Abba out and did the same. And also, but then it works the opposite way too,

where we were allowed to, like, put Malaney and Bernthal and Eben in a scene together, which wasn't written just because we were like, let's just see these people together. Yeah. And so on set, we're sort of like, you know, again, I.O. and Joanna were both with me on that episode. And we're sort of like,

all right, John, you say this. Malini, you say this. And like, we start, you know, ratching it up that way. And I think it keeps it. I don't know, it just keeps a heartbeat up. It's almost as if you went out for deep dish pizza in the middle of your...

100% meal. We did have some deep... Deep dish pizza is not my jam, man. Thank you for speaking truth on this podcast. This is my honest. No, I'm going to get fucking aggravated for that. No, when they bring it out and I'm like, God bless Richie, that he likes this.

When you get stopped by TSA at O'Hare... You know what? Let me rephrase that. I think one bite of it is really rewarding, I think, like, a slice of it. You should be like, I only like it with basil reduction. A bays. Well, also, like, I... But honestly, a lot of the pub pizzas in Chicago are actually the move.

Yeah. The thin. The square-cut style. Yeah, 100%. But if you want a casserole, okay, we're not doing that. We're not starting to fight. What we're going to do instead. It's fully a casserole.

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the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. So Evan, we're so happy to have you back on the show, man. And we were just talking with Chris about this episode, Forks, which we're calling our episode of the year here on the watch. Oh, man, that's incredible.

That's not fucking cool. Which is an honor first bestowed under the Baron onto this episode. but still, I think it has one that has legs, you know? Oh, so you're suggesting, did you just undercut our award? We were like, Evan, we've never given this award before. So, you know, there's really no history to it and we could go away next year. So don't feel too good. What was that?

Like, hugging but hidden. We wanted to talk to you a little bit about some of the beats of the episode. We were talking to Chris about kind of some of the behind the scenes making of stuff. But I had a question for you that's a little bit more wide angle, which is, in some ways, is like, was there anything melancholy about this episode for you because it's the end of one version of Richie? And you know, like he goes through this transformation

over the course of stodging for a week and in a way like the Richie's standing outside screaming about cucks. It's kind of hard to imagine him coming back after this. And I was wondering if there was anything kind of bittersweet about that. Well, okay, so two

things come to mind immediately. One is I definitely, it was a melancholy experience for me. not because I felt like I was grieving the end of anything, because I don't think that people change in this kind of way where you sort of walk through a door and then that's it. I mean, I think you have these moments, but, you know, that doorway is, you know, lasts a lifetime, you know.

And I don't see that the future of Richies, he's like some well-adjusted, like, incredible, you know, I don't think he's going to go around giving, you know, talks about leadership. You know, I think he's got a long way to go. And I also think that humans are fragile, you know, and we can, and it's easy to fall back on all the patterns of behavior. It was melancholy shooting this because I honestly didn't like making this episode. I mean, I liked making it, but I didn't love it because I just felt lonely. And we had a great cast, you know, with all the, all the folks that were working at ever with me.

And like, you know, we had really good actors. But I was in a very cold environment of this restaurant. It was dark. It was antithetical to the way, everything that I love about our show, which is everybody together, loud, you know, sweating on each other, you know, like not bodily fluids,

but bodily vapors, you know. And this was quiet, and the way we shot it was much more formal, which I liked. I thought, you know, Drew did a really beautiful job. It almost looked like, I don't know, like Kubrick, like 2001 or something, the way the camera moves to this space. No way it was lit, but I was lonely making this episode.

Do you think that affected your performance in any way? Because you're right to point out, and Chris was saying this too, coming from an episode where everyone's screaming the loudest that they ever scream in fishes. This is an episode where Richie, whose language, whose demeanor makes sense. back at the beef, suddenly he's surrounded by people who it doesn't make sense with, who are saying language to him, who are telling him to stand a certain way or behave a certain way. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what your question is, but

I definitely agree with you. Would you know what I was saying too? Would you like your question? That's usually extra, but I can do it. You know what I was saying dude is that we never even talked about it? Because I was like, I was just telling these guys, that must have been weird because it was literally like me, you and Drew and like the all our gaffers and stuff shooting this

really quiet sort of emotionless episode for a while that ended up being more emotional and I think some of the yell I was telling these guys like I think some of the yelling previously sets an audience up for that

I was also wondering dude sorry I'm taking over this is what you're here for no Eb was it like when you were just standing in a different kitchen too I bet that was weird but the first time I walked into that kitchen you know these guys worked so hard

that when we were setting up shots they were coming in the full staff was coming in every day and they were developing recipes and working like it would be a normal day there when they could kind of sneak in. Their fridge was fully stocked. There was like insane piece of waggy beef

and uni, like they were working. They were not going to let these things go to waste. And it was so quiet in there that I initially thought that they were being respectful of our working process, but they didn't give a fuck about us. This is just like, that is the way this kitchen is run. It is perfectly silent in there.

And a friend of mine just saw the new Frederick Wiseman movie. I don't know if you guys have seen it about the Michelin restaurant. Yeah. And he was like, you know, the thing that I thought was maybe like a little bit for the cameras was that kitchen was completely silent. And I was like, oh, no, actually, that is really how like these guys, a lot of these guys like to run it. You know, like chef doesn't want to hear anything at all.

I mean, they were following us. I mean, they were so lovely, dude. they were like, to keep their floor pristine in Michelin level, they were like following us around with the silent vacuums. Oh, really? Like the, oh my God. Yeah, like it was intense. But I also think it was interesting because we did feel, it was, I think, one of the first times in the show that we very genuinely felt like visitors.

Like, because it wasn't like a stage and it wasn't. Like, because even the house that we shot fishes in, we like built stuff and changed some things. And this was the first time we're like, well, we're really on, we're in someone's. to leave a pretty good campsite. Yeah, 100%. Like we have to be as respectful as possible,

but also as quiet as humanly possible. So I think it definitely added to some of the attention in there. So just going through a couple of the moments in the episode, Evan, like the one we were just talking about before you got on was this thing. I only noticed on rewatch, which is right before Richie's going to walk in to ever to this restaurant. And there's just a beat you take as you're going in. I think you say,

fuck you cousin and it's just man it's just fucking first day of school it's just like oh god i that that the nerves slash anxiety slash a little bit angry at whoever you need to be angry at before you walk in a door for the first time i'm not sure if you guys shot the the episode chronologically or like in order like that i did for the most part if i remember correctly the only thing we had to pick up because of her avail was olivia but ebb i'm pretty sure we shot it in that was like i might have been the first episode we shot relatively in sequence. Yeah, I think because there were so few moving parts in this episode, we can kind of, we could kind of just go page by page.

That was a classic Christ store kind of, you know, on take two or take three. I just say maybe fuck you, cousin. And I mean, I've literally gotten that direction like five times in different, different, just maybe say fuck you cousin. So this was a different fuck you cousin. I was just telling Andy, we always like add crazy shit. And I think like before we go any further, I'll never forget, dude, on the dailies, when you're singing Taylor Swift, right before we roll, you hear me say like, I love you for doing this. And he goes, this is an act of love.

This is an act of love and trust. Yeah, this is an act of love and trust. Evan, as a performer and as an actor, do you like being rattled or have adlibs thrown at you or having things be different from take two to take three? Or is that not your process? Dude, it depends. It depends who's given the adlibs.

I mean, with Chris, I have 100% trust in love with this guy. So, like, he can tell me anything. I mean, maybe when we first started working together, I was a little skeptical. I was proven time, time again that Chris is always right. And I love him and I'll do whatever he says. I mean, I don't think that there's very few people I would say that about, I've had plenty of directors who would, like, throw me stuff,

or, like, try to talk to, like, wind me up off camera and some kind of weird sort of meta way and, you know, kind of, you know, think about kindergarten, you know, like, ridiculous stuff like that, that just makes, and that just makes me laugh, you know? I think we have such a fluidity in the way we shoot and such an intimacy that it can be really distracting to get, like, notes during its take, you know,

it can be quite disruptive, but I don't know, everyone's just kind of in it together and it always just feels very organic and, you know, part of the whole thing. Does that track for you, sure? Well, the other thing I should say, too, is like, I think a lot of things that we talk about, it's like less the improv and more like,

the entire cast is so good at emotional map. You know, like, there'll be questions like, where am I? And it's like, I don't have all the answers sometimes. And it's like, oh, that's a great thing to think about. Like, where is Richie in his day? Is it 5 o'clock? Is he pissed? Is it, you know, whatever? But not just day. I think this ties in Evan to a question we had for Chris earlier, which is where Richie is in his season long journey, which is a different thing in terms of his emotional arc where he starts season two and where he ends it. For you in filming this episode, and given what you said about whether people can change by walking into a certain building or not, how did you track his episodic transformation? Were you able to do that scene to scene? Were you thinking about it? Were you thinking that when you're doing this scene, he's had to let you.

go of Tiffany, where you're thinking he's doing the scene, oh, he suddenly maybe sees what that board means of, you know, what this tape, what blue means and what green means and what yellow means. Do you work, do you have an awareness of that on a scene-to-scene level, or is that bigger picture stuff? I think about the big picture stuff a little bit, like on the weekends, you know, but that is not really my job when we get down to like the work of the day. I don't feel like it behooves me or the story. Again, that's like a trust of the director and the writer and these people to keep track of kind of the macro things.

I mean, I know where he's at. For me, I need to know where he's at emotionally, where he's at. You know, basic stuff, what he wants, what his morning has been like, how he feels, you know, what his stomach feels like, what his, how many cigarettes he's had, what the cold is like, you know, did the car start? I build all that kind of detail stuff.

this is the interesting thing like Chris said earlier about this episode it does come back it comes after this flashback episode and that would be

kind of impossible for me to and we shot this episode before we shot fishes. Yeah. So it's hard for me to understand

audience-wise third person dramaturgically like how that would inform something how we didn't shoot this thing I could I've read it

okay but how does this inform what we're doing now? But wait, Eb, didn't we add that you and Tiffany call? Yeah, so this, Chris and I, I called Chris on like a Saturday. I remember I was walking underneath the L train. This is like classic Chicago. So I was like, and I was trying to wrap my head around. I was trying to wrap my head around this,

this scene between Richie and Shep Talley, you know, when she tells the story about her dad. And, you know, he's, you know, And it was like, this kind of this every second counts thing. And he's like, oh, okay, so time, is that what it's all about? That's what it's all about. And she's like, yeah, I think so, something like that. And I was like, I called Chris.

And I was like, is that really what this moment is? Is this about time? It's about how we spend the time. Like, I don't want to put too fine of a point on it, but I want to get at like, what is the heart of this revelation for him? Like, what is the thing that's dawning? Because we all are aware of time. and mortality, I think.

But so we talked through this, and he helped me kind of in a very classic Chris store, like, Socratic dialectic, like, he let me say all my stuff, and then I wound back up with, like, I started at, like, I think we need to change it.

And I wound up with, oh, yeah, you're right. No, but the Tiffany thing did come out of it. And like, we ran outside. And then at the end, at the end, yeah, Chris said, he's like, you know what, I think we're going to, I want to add a phone call with Tiff,

where she tells you that, you know, that she's going to marry Frank, which I thought was, you know, just a great upping of the stakes and just a real addition to the emotional reservoir of the piece. And then I think maybe it was my idea that we could have this sort of lines crossed moment

where I said, you know, I got these three tailored swift tickets and then she's trying to tell me this thing at the same time and it ends up being this kind of uncomfortable classic like oh no no no you go whatever forget what I said what were you going to say oh you're getting married

great okay cool I gotta go I gotta go I want to unpack that a little bit more I'm curious Evan how did that how did that scene address your questions about the episode of Richie's Journey or chef Terry and then I want to ask Chris about for him

how that answered that how did that say that again well you were saying that you called Chris underneath the train with Tangerine Dream playing about to ask about basically the ending of this episode where you have this beautiful conversation

with Olivia Coleman's character and she says, you know, use your time well. Is that the message of her life? Is that what he's learning from this? So you called Chris asking about that and Chris was suggesting that the phone call between Richie and Tiffany

was in some ways a response to your question about what Richie's really getting out of this, where Richie is. And I was curious, If you see it that way, did that answer a question you had or provide you with something that made it make sense? I'm not sure that that essentially tied to that. But what for me, what unlocked it for Richie was this is a man who's living so much in the past.

You know, he's still wearing his wedding ring. You know, he's wearing the old birth shirts. You know, he's still living like in his glory days. He's wearing like high tops from the late 90s. And so when I first read every second counts, I was thinking about, oh, being the present, be in the moment. But I think the revelation that I had about it was that it's not so much that as it more is like there's miles to go.

Yeah, yeah. You know, you still got runway ahead of you. It's not all lost. You know, you can still change. You can still live your life. And I don't know, perhaps in some kind of round. about way the TIF thing helped me get there, but

I just think from a story standpoint, it's just a really nice piece of dramatic addition. I just think it adds another color. Well, Eb, I kept thinking too, because when we shot his side, when he said, I love the train actually went. Yeah, we actually got very lucky with a train, and it was like, that was fucking kind of gnar-

like, it was just gnarlier than you could have written. And I think there was something about it, to me, anyway, that was like, oh, this guy who feels like he's running out of time at this exact moment. It's like time is just ticking away. He's stuck. But then Eben's right, the thing we unlocked with Olivia, especially because Olivia

just rules and is just the funniest best person and the fact that you did this for us is incredible. But there was also something so like mellow in that moment. It's gentle. And gentle. And I think the thing that Eben and Gillian did that was so, I think, important about that phone call was that they were nice to each other. To me that's paired with, you see her face, and I'm, Evan, I was mentioning this to Chris,

like Gillian's performance is just devastating to me when her voice catches, you know, because she knows what she's about to say after you've offered her this gift of the tickets. We see that people love Richie, even though he doesn't see it. You're separated by the phone. Later when Chef Terry says your cousin believes in you, we were reminded that our version of Richie is Richie's version of Richie. We don't see him the way other people see him. And this is an episode as much about, it's about many things, but it's also about him giving up one love and accepting love in a different way.

Yeah. And, Eb, I also think it led to, like, because, you know, another scene that wasn't written that we added pretty close to the end of shooting was them yelling at each other in the fridge. Yeah. And I think, like, I think there was something about that tip, at least from you, in terms of, like, process, like, that moment with Tiff and talking about what Ebbin was saying that he's not all of a sudden just changed. Like, he's still, he's still forever, Richie. And I think it set us up nicely to finish Karmie's arc for the season where we last saw them. I was speaking at the end of the season, there's like a sort of overarching theme about purpose and maybe like Carmi's curse. And like, you know, his feeling like he has this terrible talent inside of him that only he can kind of see the plate.

But like it's going to torture him and he's going to feel like he's not worth love because like he has to stay full. focused on this. There's this fucking awesome moment in Forks where your character, Richie, is talking to Garrett. And you ask Garrett, so do you cook? Like, do you want to be a chef? And he's like, no. And it's like that moment where it's like, you don't have to be Michael Jordan to work to play a basketball. You don't have to be chef Terry to work in a restaurant and still have it be your career and your life in a lot of ways. And that to me, like, there are so many little things like where you can see Richie transform over the course of the episode, but that was the first like, like snap for me when watching your performance. It was like, oh, he sees that there are lots

of different ways to be of service in this world and to be of service in your job. Can you tell me a little bit about that scene, Evan? I would say in general, my path, which kind of dovetailed with Richie's path through this episode, was one of skepticism, you know, like these ideas about hospitality and like I've come around to them kind of reluctantly to be perfectly honest, you know, like, and when Andrew's character is like saying, you know, like he's got the kind of belief in zealousness. It's like quasi-religious.

And the whole place is kind of culty, you know, it's been, it's a weird environment, you know. And for me, and I think for Richie, like the first, like the first beginning of, of that is, is when he comes in and they start talking about the other people. We're going to take care of, you know, we're going to take care of this couple that comes. They're not going to see, they're not going to see a check. They're not going to pay a czar. It's like, oh, okay.

Wow. So this is not just about making money. This is not just capitalism. This isn't some big, like, temple of, of wealth, you know. There's something more going on here, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. And then that's that moment where he says, you know, I don't. you know, he's, he's there to take care of people.

No, but you know what, Eb, you gave me, Abin actually gave me, like, a really great idea. Because, again, Abbot was kind of cool of this. This was, like, the only episode that it was just you and, you know, like, it was just like you and I for a week, which we've never had. Yeah. It's like, oh, we'll always be, like, really special to me,

you know, like the same way that we had one with I.O. and Jeremy. And the thing you said was, that really was a great reminder to me, was to always, Richie should always be cautious. Like, he's not fully, he's not fully on board, sort of at all times. And I think it added this like really blared thing to Eben's performance. Because even at one point Andrew says like,

it's why hospitality is also in hospital. He's like, all right, take it to chill. You know, like Evan always made sure that that edge was still in there because I think to answer your question from earlier, Chris, like when people are sort of like, well, Evan, you know, Richie changed so fast in this episode. Yeah.

And you're sort of like, no, he found something to grab onto for that moment. And as we see as the show continues, like he's not, not completely correct. That's exactly right. Chris is right. He didn't, it's not like he didn't have like a change of life, but he's just like, he's like a guy falling down, like sliding down a cliff. And this has given him like a little bit of a branch, just a little bit of a handhold to just give him pause and just say, okay, maybe there is a path from me to sort of climb back up. Yeah.

And also not to even be too pretentious about it, but it's like, look, it's like I've suffered with depression my entire life. And it's like there are those moments like when you have a good day, that sort of seems like, it seems like the biggest victory of all. And it's like the next day you could go right back to whatever, you know, and it's like, I think for this moment, he's completely pumped trimming mushrooms in a fancy restaurant. One thing that I'm fascinated to hear, and I feel like our listeners will be particularly interested in, is the ways that your relationship, Evan and Chris, and the conversations you have about the work have evolved over two seasons, now going into three seasons of it. Could you talk a little bit about that relationship? Because there has to be

so much trust at this point. And it has to have been built step by step over time as you're shaping this character, as you're developing him and as you continue to work on him together. So like initially, you know, this, this isn't Chris's story, but this is, you know, this is, he has vision. He knows this world. This means a lot to him. This is, this is something that he's walked around with for a long time, this story. And when you have, he has, he has, he has walked around with for a long time, this story. And when you have someone with vision and someone who's a real authority that you can trust,

it makes it much easier. There's not a lot of people. It's not a lot of committee going on. You know, there's great people involved, but, but like it's really, um,

I don't know. I just, I just, I just, I find it very easy to turn to Chris, ask him sort of where we, where we're at, where we're going and then sort of leave it with his authority. But I also really like I rely on them a lot Like a lot

Like a lot Like you know It's like in the same way I rely on our producers And our writers and our crew But like I also know that Because again like they are This is a completely weird situation That like I love them all so much

So it's like they are sort of my Compass Through a lot of this And I think I think We have a shorthand now That's great and I know that if something feels wrong right away,

we talk about it, but also I think we can more importantly build on it. I don't think, you know what I'm saying, Eb? It's not like someone's right or wrong. It's like they ask really great questions. And I think we're able to sort of, yeah. You know, but does that make sense?

No, you're not like what I need you to do. My point is that I don't feel like it's evolved. So I feel like we had that miraculously from the beginning. Same. You know what I'm saying? I think that's just always been the thing. It was, yeah. And again, like, it's, I think that's just by nature of making, you know, for a lot of the show,

it's six people in a room shouting at each other. So there has to be some degree of trust not only with the actors, but with the crew and with me. And I think, like, I try to give as little direction as possible for the most part, because I want to keep these things filming. You know, I want to be shooting as much as we possibly can. So when we do talk about it, it's like a few words back and forth. And I think we get on the same page right away. I want to ask one last thing about the chef Terry scene, the mushroom scene, and Olivia Coleman.

And part of it is for Chris, which is just asking, was it always Olivia Coleman? How did that come to pass? And then for Evan, I just wondered, when you see that on the call sheet, you know you're going to be working with this great, great actor who's going to come in and do a scene. What is your process like for that? I mean, is it like, is it exciting you're going to get to play singles on center court at Wimbledon with another great player who has a different rhythm? or is it another day at the office and you see what you discover? I mean, the first question is like, what is turning a mushroom involved? Like, what am I going to stab myself?

Like, is there some weird overhand grip with this knife I've never seen before? Like, what is this? I don't know. Olivia Coleman, I never met before. I knew she was obviously a great artist oftentimes of the great artists or deeply, especially with an actor

as a deeply compassionate, lovely person. I had full faith that we would have a really nice half a day together and we did. I mean, you can see that scene. I love that scene. It's probably my favorite scene of the season.

It's very easy and, you know, a lot of emotional, intellectual things are imparted, but they're done in such a sort of casual, kind of, not backhanded, but sort of just they kind of accident, that they come out accidentally almost. Yeah, it kind of came and went,

sort of it drifted in like a fog, and then it's kind of like dissipated, and then she was gone. She was literally in Chicago for less than 24 hours. I think she was in Chicago less than 12 hours, dude. Like that was insane. It was really, I mean, like, you can't even go out to dinner or anything?

No, I mean, we shot, she came in at eight. She was wrapped at 945. Two or something. Not even, dude. She was like, you know, it was something really quick. But I think,

I think there was one version of the script that there was going to be a joke of who the chef was. And as we were talking about it, we were like, oh, you know what, it'd be cool if it was a woman and it would be even cooler

if it was a British, like, it should be like Olivia Coleman. They were like, let's call Olivia Coleman. And then like, you know, five minutes later, it was literally five minutes later it was Olivia Coleman.

Wow. And it was just one of those things that we were like, that was very, very cool. And it turns out her kids were fans of the show. But I think the, the more,

of the thinking, we wanted a little bit of a reveal. But we also wanted to play, I think you're sort of expecting Thomas Keller to some degree. So it was interesting to sort of play on that legend a little bit and just have a nice, as Richie, as Evan, I called you Richie, dude. Which happens far too often. Evan, you've had a very long and distinguished and varied career, but I feel like playing this part over this amount of time and you're going to shoot a third season of it soon has to stand out and be a sort of a singular experience so far.

What is your relationship with Richie like now? How do you feel about this guy? You've had some downtime and you're going to have to literally now he suits up. So that wasn't even to turn a phrase. You're going to suit up again as Richie in a couple months. Where are you with him? This job has been, you know, certainly the most fulfilling job I've ever had. I mean, even without any kind of, if nobody had ever seen this show,

it is a deeply nourishing, artistically fulfilling, like wonderful, like the days that I spend in Chicago making the show with these people are mana for me. But with the massive response of it, and certainly so specifically like forks this episode being so pivotal to the show and sort of being a lightning rod for so many people that are in certain places that are, I am in this incredible,

I find myself in this like incredible position where people are coming up to me every day, no matter where I am in the world, and sharing stories with me or talking to me about how this has changed their life or, I mean, to a lesser extent, like, you know, just I'm like, I think I told Christi's the other day, I feel like I've got like a front row seat to like,

how art or entertainment can make an incredible communion with an unseen audience. And I'm finally, you never, when you make a TV show, it's like one way, you know. Like I don't get to see the audience. And now this has been this really beautiful moment where I get to see the impact of, or the potential of making a TV show or a play or a piece of music or anything. And it's been really, really beautiful. really special and I know that it's a fleeting thing. So I'm just trying to engage in it and sort of drive right into it.

And so there's that. And then where I'm with, I mean, Richie, Richie's my guy. Like, I love it, you know? Like, I'm very different from him, but like, I'm also like, I have so much. Different, like, white squalls, not in your top five Ridley's or it's like? No, like, I don't have my white squall posters in my bathroom. Ritchie puts it right in the hallway. He's blackout.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm probably, you know, his biggest fan. Before we wrap up, Chris, do you have, I mean, in a similar way, like the feeling of, it's not the word pressure, although that's a word that fits into a high-end kitchen, talking about the success of something like Forks, we can say it, you could probably still be critical about aspects of it, but the response that it gets, the emotional response that Evan's talking about. How do you filter that as you prepare to make another season of this show?

Yeah, people are starting to get, I think it's that word's place. We may have talked about this last time you're right where people are getting protective of these characters and the relationship's pretty strong. Yeah, it's crazy. Again, just going off what Evan said, we make the show in such a small way.

You know what I mean? Eb, like it does feel like we go and make an indie movie once a year and we all get to see each other to hang out. Preserving that is kind of the hardest thing. and again, I don't read, I was telling you guys really, like I don't try, I try not to read anything.

And I think one of the nice things is we had three seasons sort of blocked out even before we started. So, you're not answering anything. You know, like, I don't think we're going back

and like listening to what anybody said about the show. So in terms of the pressure, like the pressure I feel, dude, is making sure we have a good time again. Like, like my pressure is to like our crew and our producers and our writers

and these guys. And I want to make sure that it's still a fucking awesome time and we're not worried about other shit. Do you want to use this moment to tell Evan that he's going to be singing

Olivia Rodrigo this season? Like, is there something else this is a safe space. He won't get mad. We can't double down, man. I was wondering, honestly, because this show predates

the Erez Tour secondary market. Isn't that wild? How did Richie get these tickets? I wonder if Richie got up off those tickets because that's like a nice piece of change. Well, you know, it's interesting.

Is that the Taylor Swift tour? Yeah. Yeah. People called me for tickets. I was like, you guys, I'm sorry. I got absolutely nothing. It was interesting because a lot of people, yeah, a lot of people asked us too. And I was like, we do, we have no access.

Yeah. As the guys, as the father of daughters, I love to start questions like that. As the father of daughters, I would say the only moment in this episode I bumped on was Richie just casually having three tickets. I casually, I not casually had zero. So respect to Richie and his hustle. Well, I also sent me that article about Swifty Dad. that really sort of like planted this.

It was Andy's picture in the... Thumbs up, man. But it is just to be practical about it. There is, you know, it's, Ritchie's asking Cicero. Yeah. He's asking Jimmy for those tickets.

He's very same. Yeah, so there was a guy behind that. Exactly. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today on the pod. This episode, as you're absolutely right, man.

This episode means a lot to a lot of people. And I think it really cut through a lot of noise this year and really made a really deep impact on people. And congratulations to both of you on the Emmenoms. Yeah. We hope to see you up on the stage. It's really exciting for us as fans.

Evan and I will be outside, like, breathing heavy, not a crowd of people. It's insane to even be in the mix. Evan, thanks for your East Coast evening with us. All right, love you, because I'll see you later. Yeah, guys, always a pleasure. Thanks so much. It's absolute pleasure. Let's do it again soon.