The Watch - The Best TV of 2017 With Sam Esmail (Ep. 210)

Episode Date: December 11, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald are joined for their annual best TV of 2017 discussion with 'Mr. Robot' creator Sam Esmail. They cover what they are looking from their own television experience, this year in television (2:00), and their top-10 favorite shows of the year, including ‘Game of Thrones,' ‘Mindhunter,’ ‘Handmaid’s Tale,’ and more (14:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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you definitely want to download the Hotel Tonight app. Is it coming up? is on your fucking list and Game of Thrones is not. You're getting this right. Out of your fucking mind. I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wringer.com and joining me in the double R diner. It's Andy Greenwald and Sam Asville. Wow. An annual occurrence. It feels good. Yeah, man. This is Sam.

S.M. S.M. Cullen, the return. Yes. Yes. But as I said to when you came in, when we release it on Blu-ray, it will inexplicably have a different name. It'll be Sam S-Mell, a limited event series. I accept that. Sam has joined us now two years running. He's made it, you know, intermediate. He's shown up on the pod before, but this is our thing. It's a tradition. This is a tradition. Yeah, I feel like we should have Frank Sinatra's Christmas album playing in the background while this happens. Maybe Bruce Willis crawling around in the air ducts. It's a Christmas tradition.

It's Sam Esmell. It's the best in TV. episode, but top 10 in shows of the year episode. We each have our lists. We've been checking them. We've got to talk about this for a second. Absolutely. You know, I listen to you guys every week. Very generous, yes.

You have some notes. I do, I do. You speak for the fan here. I keep saying talk TV, and then what do you guys do? You guys spend half a podcast talking about the new U-2 album. I am not sure how many people out there are interested in the critical analysis of the new YouTube. Excuse me, Mr. Robot.

That's good. Yeah? Do more. Here we go. We do a lot of these. Yes. We do a lot of podcasts. You do.

And sometimes we have to follow our news. But there's a lot of TV, guys. Yeah. There's a lot of TV. So we're adjusting to a new reality, though. And this is a good thing to talk about, about the Euro television in general. Let's do it. Okay.

Is that we're kind of adjusting to the idea that nobody is watching the same show at the same time anymore, at least from our perspective. It seems like when we started doing podcasts together back in 2011, 2012, 2012. January 12. There were five, six shows that were central to passionate TV fans everyday life. They usually were broadcast on Sundays. And they were staggered throughout the year. And they were staggered throughout the year. So we could go from Mad Men to Breaking Bad.

Yeah, exactly. And that over time, and now especially this year with shows being dumped all at once, Twin Peaks episodes being put up two at a time, shows that go on hiatus for three months for no like real reason, like good place. You have all of this dispersed viewing. going on. And I think that for as much as we obviously are very passionate about the shows that are on our lists, and we did really, I think we hit Twin Peaks the most this season. Yeah. If we just sat there and with the exception of Thrones, if we just were like, you know what, we're just going to do another episode about, about Mindhunter this week. I just think the people who weren't watching Mindhunter wouldn't listen to the podcast. Well, maybe that's true. But I like the way you guys broke down Stranger Things too. You broke it down into three sections.

Right. You talked about it before. you saw it, then you broke it down. You know, after you saw it in chunks. I would argue that strange things too. I would love that. I'd love that. Few monocultural shows we have. Oh, come on.

You could have done that with Mind Hunter, which is a great, which is a great show. I agree with you. My dudes, the thing that I'm trying to really just underline here, no one cares about the new YouTube. That's what I'm really getting at. Wow. We got to talk about what's going to be on this list.

Okay. And one of the things, Chris, who I deeply respect, to Lube Meyer. Clearly. He talked about how you said something, I don't want to paraphrase, but something along the lines of you're going purely based on comfort, entertain, entertaining, right? Pleasure.

The pleasure principle. I'm going to make a confession right now. I watch Vanderpump rules. Wow. I watch it every, I look forward to it every week. Wow. I'm so excited that it's back. I had no idea.

I went really fan boy. On one of the cast members, two of the cast members that I saw at a party a few weeks ago. I enjoy it immensely. Yeah. But it's not going to be on my top 10 list. Yeah, well, Survivor's not on my top 10 list. But that's my point. I love watching baseball.

So there's a distinction. There is a distinction. It cannot just be because it gives you the fuzzies. It has to be more than that. And Survivor, although Survivor is intellectually stimulating. I watch Rachel Maddow every night. Right. Well, I would not.

I mean, like, that's a different kind of entertainment, though. Right. But again, I just think that we got to like, what's our criteria here? Because, you know, entertainment versus... A lot of the shows that are on my list. Go ahead. It's not about whether or not it's an ivy drip of painkillers to get over what's happening in the world.

Like, I don't want to make it sound like that. And it's not about... I am just a little bit in a zone right now where I need the shows to get out of the blocks and start being what they are and have a degree of zip to them and a degree of, like, self-assurance and it's not like, okay, well, we're going to just keep dragging our fee, and this is, we're still in sort of figuring it out mode. I just enjoyed shows that were what they were on arrival. You're talking on a formalist level. You are tired of the construction, the familiar by now construction of a dramatic season on television in this current age.

Well, we'll find out. I think that, I take Sam's point, I don't know necessarily, and I know what he's talking about on my list, but I also don't think that I think that I have reasons for each individual show. You know what he's talking about. I have reasons for each individual show to be on there, beyond, oh, it's just entertainment. What I think, and I realize now why you sad me here, because I'm going to be, I'm going to try to bring you guys together. I think that what Chris wants, and what Sam wants too, in television shows, particularly new ones, was best put by Bono on track five of Songs of Experience. You want them to get out of your own way. So in a way, every everything we do is about television, you're just not listening currently.

Look, I'm not trying to say that shows shouldn't be entertaining. I just think that can't be the only reason. Not for this list. Not when there's so much good TV out there. Let's pivot on that point before we get into our list. What was this year in television for you? Was this a good year? Was this another year of plenty?

Or did you start to see any cracks in the machinery? I thought it was a good year until I started making my list. and I have to say I struggled a little bit. You're filling the list? Yeah. So finding 10 shows or feeling like the shows that you were playing the list for a while? Well, I'm saying that having said that I have a tie for number 10. So clearly I didn't have a problem filling the list.

But I think we talked about this last year where did I feel that there was like a masterpiece? This year I can say yes. Yes. And that's my number one. That's my number one on my list. But I don't know if I was really kind of like, you know, I would watch a show, I'd love it, and they're on my list. And then as time went on, did it stick? Did it stick the landing?

Is it a matter of volume? Is it because there was so much, there was always another show competing for your brain and you didn't get to digest things? It sounds like you're saying there were a lot of Bs and B pluses. That's what I'm saying. I would actually agree with it. That's what I'm saying. Throughout the year, there was a lot of people on Twitter, which, is basically the Algonquin roundtable of TV criticism.

In so many ways, it's elevated discourse. But particularly a lot of TV critics throughout the year were saying, you know, it's April, and I already have 20 possibilities from my list, how difficult this is going to be to narrow it down this year. I didn't find it difficult. I think there were many good to find to good shows. But when it came time to making a top 10, I think there were three masterpieces and then a big drop-off

and then things that I really, really, really liked, which is no shame in that. But I did not struggle making this list. I would struggle making top 20. And you know, look, I read a lot of reviews and I look at critics and especially when they publish their list. Everyone's like clamoring that. It's tough to just whittle it down to 20. I don't think I could do that.

I don't know what they're talking about. And then I look at their lists and I'm like, okay, clearly we disagree on a lot. Yeah, I just, you know, I always go, you know, did you guys do your Michael Clayton episode? No, we did it. We did a zodiac for watchable. up this week. And we talked about Michael Clayton on an episode of Sean Fantasy's podcast, The Big Picture. Maybe it's just that year, the year in which, 2007, 2007, 10 years ago, actually, Michael Clayton, no country for old men. Maybe that's just not, you can't expect that every year

in anything, you know? And it's just, that's just, that's more of the exception than the rule. We've also been talking about television, obviously there's been television criticism for 40 years or however long it's really been going. But we've been talking about television in a very specific way, probably, for six or seven years now. And I wonder whether we're entering that period where, you know, if you read like 1970s,

New York or film reviews, they'll just be like, man, get this shit out of here. About like Rosemary's baby. You know, and it's like we are starting to develop a canon. We have ideas about what shows should accomplish, you know, intellectually and emotionally to be considered. Our standards are very high.

Great. And I think our standards are really high. I think that's what's happened. Yeah. One question for you, Sam, and we should say you actually lay down a request that when we had this discussion and we made our list, that you requested that we not discuss. No family talk. And, you know, by the way, and that means no shameless, no Mr. Robot. No, you two.

Right. That's fair. By the way, I have nothing against you. We push back on the third point, but we finally guessed. I will just need to step aside because Bono was going to surprise you and say like, you know. Mr. Robot's his favorite show. I was kind of wondering whether or not, in the same way that we're talking about television watching being a little bit silent off, maybe happening in these smaller groups rather than as like a massive big conversation about certain touchstones, which I think that there's pros and cons to both kind of states of watching. I think more people are seeing more different stuff and more different kinds of stories are being told, which is ultimately like a really good thing.

But I was wondering whether or not creatively you think about making a show in the same way you thought about it. four, three, four years ago? Like, do you think about how it's being received in any different way? Like, you think about, like, the late 60s and when people were making rock albums that were definitely, like, answers to this and challenged by a pet sounds,

we're going to do this. And I think that there was a sense, maybe, I mean, this could be just us ascribing and importance to, like, the stuff we were watching. But people were watching Breaking Bad and being like, holy shit, the bar is raised, man. Like, I want to do this. Well, yeah, I do remember seeing Breaking Bad

and thinking to myself, Oh, man, that's one story. That wasn't like, because I think even prestige TV prior to that, like the S&L say the Sopranos or the Wire or Dexter, any of those other shows, there was like a season-long arc and there was this, you know, and so it's kind of procedural in a seasonal kind of way. But Breaking Bad was, no, this is one story from beginning to end. And of course they had their kind of different objectives.

every season, but it felt like a very cohesive thing. So, I mean, obviously that inspired me because I was writing Mr. Roba as a feature at the time, and so I was trying to tell one story, and so the adaptation to TV, I was encouraged by the fact that Breaking Bad

did that so well. But at the same time, like, yeah, I do think there's a competitive thing. I'm friends with Noah Hawley. He fucking pisses me off because he's so fucking good. I mean, he's fucking great. And, and And then he comes, and then he does a, not only was he great in Fargo this season, but then he does an incredible show Legion this, this season.

That's because he hires the right people. I mean, yeah, exactly. I'm just kidding. But yeah, there's definitely an attitude of like, well, yeah, I want to top him. I want to beat him. But in a, in the most respectful, you know, sort of sportsmanship kind of way. But like, yeah, I think that exists, but I think that's great. I don't, you know, I think that's healthy.

We should get into it. Yeah, let's get into our list. I think one thing that we could do is just go from bottom to top. Okay. You know, and I think that we're obviously going to want to save some time to talk about certain shows. The top end, especially as Sam pointed out, there, I think that we would all, would you agree that there was some separation, that this is a top heavy year.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, I think that there, as we go through it, but as I said, I think my top three, if I just had to pick, I could just pick top three and be comfortable with it. And be like, this is what I think. Can I just also say, I haven't seen a lot of. of shows. That's fine.

I don't think, that's the thing. But can I just mention them so that the, you know, so that... You want to cover some bases. I want to cover some bases.

Because you can't commit to your top ten. I haven't seen all of Smilf because all of Smilf hasn't aired, but I love it. But I love what I've seen so far. I'm also Team Smilf. I think it's great. I've seen a couple episodes of dark and I really love it. Interesting. Yeah.

But that, I haven't seen Godless. I don't know. Those are the three. There's a bunch of stuff out. I haven't got a chance to watch. the crown yet. I haven't watched it. Marvelous. Mrs. Maisel. Mrs. Maisel. And I love

Rachel Brasdenham, but I haven't seen that show. Anyway. No, that's a good point. Is there any stuff like that? I feel that way. I mean, obviously, Black Mirror is not coming out until the end of the year. Yeah, I've got a big one that might even be on your list. And it's a blind spot we haven't been discussed. I didn't watch better call Saul this year. I just didn't

watch it. And I look forward to watching it. It's always good. And maybe it says something about my relationship to the show or the blood of television or that I had a baby. when that show came out. It's worth mentioning but I just didn't watch it.

This is our like top 10 list of the stuff that we liked and the stuff that we wound up having to be like watch. Enough teasing. We got to get into it. Let's get into it. So number 10, Sam.

What's your number 10? So this is my tie. I always have one tie. Legion. Okay. Thanks to you, Andy. Yes. You did such a great job.

It's very clear. So can you talk a little bit about how you created the X-Den? I think that's a great question. I appreciate you phrasing it to me that way. Go on. I can say nothing. I was happy to

be a tiny part. No, I think, I mean, look, the reason, Legion was my number 10. And then I kept thinking about the keepers, which was also great. Once again, I was going to say, you always stick documentaries because I think when they're so well made and so sort of artfully executed, as well as kind of really telling this gripping, gripping, gripping, thrilling story, as, as fucked up and controversial as it was, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I had. to give it so, you know, I wanted, anyway, it made an impression on me and it was one of those shows where I could not stop watching it. I started it from beginning and end. And by the way, I think we should flag that. Some of these shows, obviously you couldn't binge, but I'm kind of

curious what you're, when we do get to those shows, what your sort of binge relationship was. Because I think that speaks a lot. And also, it really deeply impacts how the shows resonate with you, I think, because that's one of the problems with binging is that, yes, you can, ingested all at once, but sometimes people will watch three and then life happens, and you're like, oh, man, it's been like three weeks and I don't really remember what happened on third episode, so I have to like watch the last 20 minutes of that, but never mind, I'll just watch something new. And it's just like stuff gets screwed up that way. Yeah. But the Keepers for me was one of those things where I had to burn through it immediately. So that, so it's a, so it's a,

it's a close tie between Keepers and Legion. Okay. Number 10. We, you mentioned my number 10, Marvelous Mrs. Maisel on Amazon. I love it the show. I think it's delightful. I think it brings me great joy to watch it, which I think, you know, not to steal Chris's bit, but I just think it's just impeccably done and a star-making performance. I've said it before, I'll say it again. There are some shows that only work if you find the right person to play the part. Sam, you live through this. It's hard, it's impossible to imagine your show without Rami in the lead, but also the perfect kind of TV starmaking in that we'd seen him before. He was, he was memorable, but we didn't know what he was capable of. I feel that way about Rachel Brown.

Absolutely. She is a memorable actress. I think I've only seen her in House of Cards, but she definitely made an impression. It's good to hear the show's great. Number 10 for me was Sneaky Pete on Amazon. I think that's a good call. That show is underrated. Michael Dreyer. My boy Michael Dreyer is on that. It fills the, it filled the justified hole in my life. So it's Graham Yost was the showrunner on this. Really good Rubyzie performance and I am a sucker for Conman stories. I just think that they lend themselves to really, really awesome drama because you've got actors who are already playing a part, playing multiple parts to like to pull one over on somebody. And this is random, but somebody who I've always really loved who I think never really has gotten like the credit they deserve is Marin Ireland. I could not agree more.

In a play in New York like a really long time ago off Broadway and I was always like, man, she's awesome. And she was on homeland for a while. She was terrific in a small part on homeland. Yeah. And so she is one of the leads in this show. And if you're just like hanging out over the holidays, it's really entertaining. You can actually probably watch it with your dad or your mom,

and they'll probably be like, this is close enough to like a CBS show. Is it a procedural? Well, remember, it's fascinating because this is a show that was developed for CBS. The pilot was made for CBS. CBS passed. Amazon picked it up.

And so you see it transform. The pilot is a CBS show, and then the rest of it is like a really good HBO Cinemax showtime. Okay. So it's totally serialized. Okay. Yeah. All right, back to you.

Number nine. Because you did the thing where you had a tie, but then you still had like 11 shows. You didn't remove, yeah, okay. So this is nine. Oh, better things. Better things. Did you guys see better things? I did.

What did you guys think of better things? I admire and respect it. Are you, wait a minute. Do we want to talk about the elephant in the room with better things? Sure. We can. Sure. But is that why it's not on your eyes?

No. just have never been the biggest Pamela Adlin fan. Oh, interesting. It's just a personal taste thing. It's no disrespect against her many abilities and the writing, but I just, I just didn't love watching the show. Wow. And same, same with you, Chris. Yeah, I don't know that I, I think I have like a full tank of, of like personality driven dromedes, you know, right now. And I, uh, have you, have you tried it or you just? I did. Yeah, I think I, I know that the second season really got, like, apparently much better as it went on. good and she directed every episode and the filmmaking is so singular and um and so well crafted and

then it gut punch punches you with emotion when you least expect it um and for a comedy i still think that's a really hard thing to do i think there's a lot of comedies that try and do it yeah um and i still feel i can see it a mile away but uh better things just does does a great job of surprising me and i i can't speak highly enough of the filmmaking. I mean, she is just, kind of the images that she captures are just beautiful. And another thing,

you don't really see a lot. Do you have an elephant comment? Because the strange thing about the show, of course, is the weird limbo of Louis C.K. The situation has put the show in. It's clearly her show, and yet he was very, he was not like one Mississippi where he produced it.

Louis co-wrote a lot of these episodes. I mean, she was like, he put his name on it. Right. This is my show. I think for Pamela, he was, was in there. And I think, you know, I'm not going to say anything new. I think you guys kind of

spoke to this. It's hard to separate the work and, you know, and what he's done. And clearly what he's done is horrific and terrible. And I, you know, past that, I think it's weirdly disrespectful to even kind of talk about it on the same playing field because it's not equal. You know, who cares about this shit? the worst outcomes, though, of this. And when I say this shit, I mean, our top 10 list when it comes to what's going on out there.

For all the necessary correctives that are happening in entertainment and other industries, Pamela Adeline's show should not be a casualty of them. And let's hope that's not the case. I can't imagine it would be. That's your number nine? The good place on NBC. And that also includes the end of the first season because it had that strange gap

that you mentioned due to football. Yeah, it's off the air again now. But, you know, it's one of those things where, God, Mike Sherd knows how to make good TV shows, and he hires great writers, and he has an incredible cast, and it is both deeply pleasurable and joyful in a way that networks sitcoms can be, but aspires for more. I mean, I think it's actually a brilliant experiment. Do you think this season's better than the first? I'm not sure yet. I think it's been great. You know, we also have our other, your rival for unofficial third host, Jason Manzukas, is on it,

so we have a little bit of obligation to the show. He's hilarious. But, uh, I think that... He's better. I think the ambition of the show in particular should be champion, not just the Ted Danson and Kristen Bellar treasures, but the fact that he's trying to create... He's trying to respond to the serialization of TV and the big questions that TV generally has been asking

in the drama space and put it on a network sitcom while also being entertaining and making it 21 and a half minutes. I think that's incredibly ambitious and challenging and rewarding. What is your favorite Ted Danson performance? CSI, I think. Yeah, I think that was really when he was, That is. Good call.

No, I mean, well, there's... I have one. I have one. Cousins? Damages. Who's gonna bring up damages? That's an amazing performance. That would be my close second.

Fargo season two? I'm kind of blanking on the name of the show. Cheers. No. Becker? It's a bar room comedy set in Boston. Is it the Zach Aliphonacus? Yes.

Bored to death. Bored to death. Great. I mean, I fucking loved him on that show. Yeah. He's just the greatest television actor, though. I mean... I love him on curb.

I mean, I think he's great on Kirk. I mean, he's just always great. I don't know if Fargo. But Damages was great because it wasn't comedic at all. Damages was pretty dark. It was ahead of its time on a couple of things. Like, it was, in terms of tone, it was really excellent. I know that, you know, those guys made Bloodline,

and Bloodline sort of flew off the tracks in the second season once they had Ghost Mendelsohn involved. But they make really taught psychological thrillers at like a very high level. In the 90s they would have been doing like Curtis Hanson-style movies, but they kind of now do these really cool thrillers.

My number nine was Big Little Lies. Representing the culture there. Did you ever finish it? And you don't care to it? I'm kind of interested in season two now that Andrea Arnold's directing it. I think that's incredibly cool.

That is cool. Talk about it. Talk on it. Yes. A wonderful mix of comedy and drama and a lovely mix of mellow drama and actual adult emotional drama. So it had enough, are they going to find this guy and what's going to happen with the various mysteries that were going on in terms of this Alexander Scarsigard character and the sort of threat that he posed. But it also had like an incredible sense of humor. and I thought Reese Witherspoon gave like a, you know, kind of up there on the Reese Witherspoon Rushmore in terms of capturing everything that's incredibly charming about her in a role, but not like something that we had seen her do before. And I really, really thought, I talked about shows that knew what they were as soon as they were on.

There was something incredibly satisfying about seeing something that had such an assured sense of where it was set, what these people were about, what these people were doing. And obviously it has a degree of like, you know, it feels the way Santa Barbara feels to like look out and just be like, oh, this light is quite nice. And it's like, I really enjoyed this glass of wine. I also think it's worth saying these are subjective lists in our personal taste. If we were, for whatever reason, if we were like the Grammy nominating committee and, you know, we wanted to recognize you two. And then after that we had four more slots to fill. If we were making an objective list. Yeah.

Even though I didn't finish the series, hard to think of a show more successful in what it set out to do and then what it was. it did and the response that it got than that show. I mean, I thought Allison, Herman for the ringer wrote a smart piece about it saying that that of all the shows to pluck out of this year and suggest what TV is sort of headed for in a lot of ways. I think Big Little

Eyes is a harbinger of a lot of things to come. I don't, I don't, what does that mean? Big Star, Blockbuster TV. Not Santa Barbara Light, although it is charming. Right, right, right. Okay, we're back to you. So that we've done, we're at eight. Yeah. Well, so mine is better call salt. You did not see.

And I actually want to comment on that because what I love about Better Calls Salt, and actually this is probably, I'm going to say, low on the entertainment radar. I would agree with that. I don't know if I'm having a ball watching Better Call Saul. Doctor view is fascinating. But it is so well crafted. Yeah. The writing, the filmmaking, the performances.

It's so nuanced. It's so emotionally layered. it's so creative in how it tells a story. I don't think they care about entertaining you at all. Yes, they're past that. Yeah, that was probably one of the reasons why I didn't fire it up again this year. And so, yes, my joy level is not at peak. And honestly, if they did care about that,

I think Better Call Saul would be up there with Breaking Bad for me. But yeah, because of that, I keep it low. But, I mean, I actually give credit to them that it's even breaking my top 10 given the fact that I actually don't necessarily think I'd say I enjoy watching it. So is it a matter of respecting it then more than finding entertainers? Do you eventually get used to the rhythms of it? You're like, you guys. Because you're also, you're a writer-director today. Right.

No, I watch it every week. And so let me, let me say this. It's not that I let it pile up and it's homework. You know, it's nothing like that. but yeah, there's just not that level of excitement that I need to know what happens next. And that is actually kind of an essential thing of storytelling. I don't know if it's grabbing me in that way, but that's primarily a choice that they're making because they are very methodical and their pace is very deliberate in terms of how they're going to unravel the story.

But at the same time, you know, you can't, I guess I do find joy in the, and just how well crafted it is. What's your, go ahead? Insecure. Nice. And I think Insecure is a beautiful show. The direction is incredible. Because it looks great to me, but I just haven't seen it yet.

It's funny, it's emotional. But also, we definitely, just in general in culture, we overweight debuts. We pay more attention to the flashy new thing. One of the great pleasures of TV is this shows that take a leap in the second season. Insecure Season 1 was good. Insecure Season 2 is, close to great. And all of a sudden, these people who were really enjoyable in the first season are stars, like I think Issa Ra is incredible. Jay Ellis had a big coming out season as Lawrence, Yvonne Orgy. I think we can call her friend of the pod. She did our live show with as incredible as Molly. It is just, it's an exhilarating show. When you see, when some of the bones that it's playing with are familiar from rom-coms or shows about LA, shows about young people, but it's being told in a different way and crucially being told about people that usually don't have these shows about them. It kind of sucks. You're right to say that if a show doesn't come out, you know,

come out of the gate in its first season. And as they build and get better in the second season, it's hard for them to get that traction. It's crazy. Obviously, breaking, I mean, there are exceptions like Breaking Bad being. But it's the biggest thing. But that's just a rarity now. Yeah. That's sad. Number eight for me is young pope. I think one of the years three masterpieces. I think I admired it more than I loved it.

And I think that I really appreciated how it resonated with people, both obviously on a deep artistic level, but also just became such a meme factory. And everybody was just like having such a great time making young pope jokes. I think I know what it's about. I don't know that what it's about is always in the pudding. You know, I think people The head of the Catholic Church

is not as old as you may expect him to be. Yes. It's right there, man. It looked incredible. It looked like it cost $50 million to make. I thought Juval was fantastic. How many lira, though. But it's, you know, and it obviously made my top ten.

I just don't know if it was as meaningful to me as it was true, so I want to let you talk about it. I want to see what Sam was going to say about it. I made you watch it. I browbeat you about it. No, no, no. I wanted to watch it. And then I didn't finish it.

And it's weird, because given what my number one choice is, but I'll say this, I just couldn't hold on to anything. I didn't understand what the hell was going on in any way, and not in an enjoyable way. So I'm not necessarily asking for any narrative logic, again, evidenced by what will be my number one choice. But I needed something, and I wasn't sure where. For what it's worth, where to hang on to. I do think the meme factory, Jude Law, That stuff annoyed me, actually. That stuff turned me off.

That was earlier in the series. It took a turn that's... I was already... You know, you guys know I was in love with the show just from Jump. But the end actually became quite emotional. I think it tethered itself to something a lot more profound in the end that was, I think, always there, but not evident to everyone. It's a strange year where...

Because generally, I want to be an advocate for TV as TV, for TV that is the creation of, you know, singular minds and talents, but, you know, that... Follow certain rules, right? Or that conform to certain shapes and are serialized in a certain way and tell some kinds of stories, maybe in surprising ways. But my top two are completely auteur television shows, Sorrentino and I'm not giving anything way to say Lynch. Young Pope is your top. Young Pope is my number two. They're painters.

And you respond. For me, when they put something on the canvas, I am immediately emotionally riveted. And I understand that some people drop off. I do think the young Pope was more rewarding all the way through. But it was just, it was sumptuous. It was just like, it was a feast. I haven't finished it. So maybe you've convinced me.

It's worth finishing. What did you have number seven? Okay, number seven. The Handmaid's Tale. Man, were we up to, yeah, I guess, yeah, number seven, the Handmaid's Tale. The reigning winner, Emmy winner. The reigning Emmy winner. Great show, Reed Morano directed the hell out of it.

she's she's one of the ones or that show in general i mean Elizabeth Moss is brilliant in it um but that show in general was one of the ones where you know where we talked about competitive that's one where that's cool I think me and the entire crew of mr. robot would just every week talk about it

and just get so angry and didn't want to you know go home and cry anyway it's so good it's great handmade's tale worthy is not on my list just missed it, would have made an expanded list. But it's a nice segue because Elizabeth Moss's other show is my number seven, Top of the Lake China Girl.

I haven't seen it. On Sundance. I haven't seen the first one either. Oh, my goodness. Well, that's my favorite show. My number one of 2013. I just think that Jane Campi and Elizabeth Moss are doing things that other shows aren't interested in doing. This show is ostensibly the second in a series about, you know, procedural,

about a female police officer in the first. first one is in New Zealand, this one is back in Australia. But this entire season was about motherhood in a way that was unsettling and profound and rewarding and confusing and oftentimes difficult to watch. There's a scene in the middle of this where the bad actor, I don't mean like performer, I mean like the person who acted badly towards Elizabeth Moss, ostensibly the villain of the first season comes back for a short amount of time. And what happens in that scene is so shocking and so resonant, particularly. particularly in 2017, in a way that when I watched it, even before, like the wine scene news and everything else broke, it felt, I think some people complained about the scene. There's a shock

of violence in it towards women. It happens in a workplace. To feel it felt like a weather vein in a way. I think about that scene often. And it's not the violence of it that shocked me. It's the almost the normalcy of it, that this happened in a room where work was supposed to be getting done. And, you know, following up on Sam's point, Elizabeth Moss, if Ted Danson is the greatest television actor. I think Elizabeth Moss is our greatest television actress. She is pretty flawless. stunning in everything she does.

My number seven was godless. I've talked a lot about it already on the pod, so I don't want to believe it other than to say that, you know, it's one of those just real, we're lucky because there is such a demand for shows right now that someone was like, why don't you make a nearly like nine-hour Western, you know, I think when you add up all the running time minutes.

In the middle of this show, it just becomes this, you really do feel so thankful because what happens is Scott Frank could have very easily just kept adding characters and kept adding multiple storylines to the show and still probably tied them up by the end of the series. And this is the end of the series, obviously, because it's just a limited series. So was big little lies, my man. That's true. That's true. But instead, he goes deeper. And I think that that is often something that is confronts television shows is this question of width versus depth. Do you want to keep expanding the world and keep showing different parts of it?

Did you mind that? No, I loved it. I loved it. I haven't seen it, but you loved the 30-minute horse training. I wanted to, I didn't mind. Horse training. I loved it. If you like Westerns, you love it.

If you like Westerns and you like the idea of watching Jack O'Connell take a teenage kid out for his first hunt and talk about which trees you got to watch out for horses because they might trip over the roots. Like that might be boring to some people. Can I ask you a question? Were you on your phone while you were watching this? No. Not at all. No. No, thank blissfully.

Untrue. He was texting me horse emojis. It's nonstop. There is also, it has an incredible finale. And I don't want to give anything away. I do want to check it. They find God at the end. Don't disappoint.

Before we go on, though, do you not have Handmaids Till? I do not. I really, really liked the beginning of the first few episodes. episodes of Handmaid's Tale and I felt like it fell off. Can I say, I will say, I will say, so Hammate's Tale was higher on my list, but the more I kept thinking about the last couple episodes, the more I kind of dropped it down.

But at the same time, I thought it was still a pretty groundbreaking show. I mean, they did some. I think it's a remarkable achievement. I think there were things in it that I realized there were things in it that I didn't like and that the things that I did like were carrying it for me. Like, I could watch Elizabeth Moss do anything.

The sort of, the way every episode I think felt the need to sort of The pop song. And you go girl. You got to watch another one because it's dark. It's incredibly dark. And it felt like to me, and again, I don't, I don't mean to judge this one way or another. It's actually probably a smart play.

But it felt like there was a corporate hand on the back of it saying, let's hedge our bets a little bit. We're not sure if people are going to go on this journey with us, so we have to give them hope. And maybe you do, but it did feel like a note to me as opposed to a natural artistic choice in the beginning. I know nothing about how it was made. That's just how it felt to me. We're going to get to the top half of our lists, but first a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Zell. Zell is a new way to send money to your friends and family from your banking app.

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That's Z-E-L-L-E-P-A-Y.com. Zell, this is how money moves. All right, we're back. Sam S-M-L is here with us. We're talking about our top 10 TV shows of the year. It is an emotional process. It is not an objective. It is not comprehensive, but we're getting somewhere.

Deeply personal. We're learning things about each other that we, frankly, we don't like. We're number six. Yeah, it doesn't feel very good. We're at number six. I'll be honest. Okay, six. All right, I'm up.

Here we go. Master of None. Okay. Not on my list. You're giving me the look like it's not on your list. That's an honorable mention for me. Like it was not on my list, but it's an honorable list. How is that not on your list?

I mean, to me, it's like in terms of just comedies out there, it's up there with Atlanta for me. I mean, it's just beautifully made. It's still really funny. And look, I didn't love necessarily every single. episode, but I think he, but his worst is still better than most of the stuff that's out there. I just think he's doing a

phenomenal, phenomenal job. And the Thanksgiving episode alone. There are moments, also the New York I Love You episode is really striking. Bobby was great in it. The second to last episode, it's like an hour long, the love letter to New York, the way he shoots New York in that episode, I think he's turned into a

beautiful and brilliant director. It's up there. I think that it's not on my top 10. It's so human. I mean, I really do think that, you know, there's this weird homework assignment that I think a lot of showrunners have that they got to hire diversity. Diversity in the writer's room, diversity in front of the camera. It's not a homework assignment to his ease. He is so curious in such a creative and interesting way about different points of views and he does it through romanticism. You know, he does it through love.

And it's so, I don't know, it's so thrilling for me to watch. I had a better New York show at number six. Just one master, two quick master of none points. My frustrations with it are very, very specific, and I think it maybe does the show as a whole, the project a disservice to harp on them and ding it for that. One, the vision of young people or youngish, like 29, 30-year-old people in New York

as just slavishly devoted to incredibly fancy restaurants in their phones, I find kind of dispiriting. Maybe that's just my own sense of the world. You're talking about like the first couple of episodes. Well, just, but in general, that's, you know, that is the vibe. And, you know, the way they talk about food and cocktails, it just, it feels trifling to me, even though I love food and cocktails. And frankly, I'm very happy with my new phone.

So maybe I really need to turn the mirror around it myself. The other thing that I wish, and, you know, I talked to Aziz, I did a screening thing where I talked to him afterwards recently. And, of course, the question that everyone wanted to ask is, when is season three coming? And he's very upfront. There is no season three unless he decides there's a season three. Exactly. I applaud that. What I would, what I want.

He said, I can't do a season three until I get married or have kids or have more life experience, which I appreciate because otherwise it would turn. It's very before sunrise of him. But also maybe it would become even more trifling, to use that word. But I leave those shows wanting more of him. I think that he is, and this is not just from having interviewed him, I think that he is, rightly or wrongly a guarded person. And yet he's making a show that is in some ways confessional or about his love life or what he wants out of the world.

Sometimes I think he's hiding in plain sight on that. show. Man, what about the Michael Clayton ending? I mean, that's him. That felt the ambiguity might be him. Yeah, maybe he shows it at the end there. But often I think that he's not quite there. Do you know what I'm talking about when I suggest? I do, but I completely disagree. All right. Oh, wait, what were we on? Number six? Yeah, it's number six. Well, my number six is going to be higher for you. We'll talk about it when we get to you, but it's Mind Hunter. Okay. My number six is billions, which I think is a better New York show than Master of None. Tell me why. So had a little bit of issues. in its first season and became this kind of relentlessly paced thriller,

even though it was also about guys going out and getting sushi and screaming at each other and maybe buying the New York Giants and all the stuff that you kind of want from like, what if you had billions of dollars and lived in New York City? I didn't think that this show was going to have like a second act. I didn't know what it could do in the second act. it's just got a kind of Oceans 11, 12, 13, closer to 13, which is what Coppulman also worked on

with his partner, David Levin, that was just so, like, in the zone of, we're going to keep you on the edge of your seat on that sort of, you know, 70s New York crime thriller way, but there's also just a lot of, like, comedy in it. And it is a very, very, very funny show. So I had that six, of that was that that reason where you're like, yes, this is a pleasure to watch every Sunday.

So, Sam, number five. Number five. Game of Thrones. Not familiar with it. We have to talk about this. I just discovered this during our little commercial break there. So last year when we sat down, you, not for the first and not for the last time, successfully browbeat me into admitting that it was an error.

I did not have Game of Thrones on my list last year. that was a mistake. Right. It is not on my list this year. This is, and it's on your list. It's not on my list. This is insane. This is insanity.

Go for it. Look, I'm not saying, and you know, you want to, obviously there were flaws in the season, but I think you guys are, I think the measuring stick is wrong here. I mean, these guys, what Beniof and the whites are doing are off the charts insane. They're delivering these big budget spectacle. every hour, every week, and sure, give them some slack here. They're still, I think, operating on an incredibly high, not just, you know, not just from a production level, but a creative level, too. I mean, things are, like, things are colliding.

I think both of us probably admit that we're, like, too close to it at this point. I mean, we spent a lot of time thinking about it. It would be, like, Chris Collins were feeling. I mean, you guys were so obsessed with it. And this is why this is shocking to me. Have you ever watched a show? Any of the other shows on your list, have you watched it like this? Well, that's part of the problem is that I don't want necessarily to be that boxed in by a show.

I mean, you know what I mean? Well, I'm not talking about your work requirements, but wasn't it? Well, no, it wasn't even a professional obligation thing as much as it was. It did not consume you in that sort of way of great show. And I also felt like because of the way that they've sort of mapped out this season, it didn't even have people, their performances were steady on this season, but in past seasons, I feel like you had remarkable performances and people had opportunities to really stretch out.

And I felt like everybody was kind of boxed in by all these plot mechanics this season that you didn't really get that standout. Like, Jamie Lannister should have had a standout season this year and he got like 12 minutes a game, I thought, in terms of basketball terms. I just didn't think that they gave enough breathing around. to the part of the show that's really,

it's lifeblood beyond the set pieces, which is like getting time with these characters. I'm going to give you a comparison you both will hate equally. Game of Thrones is not on my list this year, neither is the Americans. Both have been on the list before. Probably the two most important shows to you.

The most important shows on television, for sure. No, well, to me. And I think it's important to note that often when we make these lists, we are ranking the shows, not just against each other, but about the best version of the shows that has existed before.

And I think the Americans had a remarkably lackluster season. I think Game of Thrones had a generally lackluster season, but I think the comparison between them is made because both of them felt like they were throat clearing to some degree to the finale. And things that would have delivered the dramatic punches that would have made sense,

that would have felt given as a sense of completion and a sense of a season, were absent. I think that if we were doing a list of the best single episodes of the year, Master of None would be on there for me. A Handmaid's Hill would be on there. Game of Thrones, Lute Train Battle episode, top three.

Absolutely. Without question. Well, this is why this infuriates me. The season was overall disappointing, and I think you were talking about the achievement of Benny Offen-Wa and the production values are certainly as they've ever been in the performances. But I think that the seams were showing a little bit this year. I don't think they're writing because I think there were too many shortcuts this year that were, I guess, necessary because they feel they need to end the show.

But I did not have the emotional weight to counterbalance the action that we felt in the past. It set a very high bar. I mean, you know what I feel like? It's no sneaky piece. I also don't. This is one. Let me just say this. Let me say this.

You know, TV shows, especially like shows like Game of Thrones, and especially if we're going to go into this more sort of atmosphere where shows are going to come out to tell a one, to tell a singular story, they're going to have seasons where they take those steps to setting up the next thing. That doesn't mean that because you don't have every answer, every payoff, every, everything kind of coming to a conclusion by the end of the season that they've made a mistake.

Don't you think that the reason why this, one of the reasons why this show is so unique was that they did? That they did what? No. They had that architecture. Season five, season five, which by the way was bemoaned.

Every critic out there hated. I loved it. I thought it was great. And it set up at season six. And everyone then just went apes shit over season six. Season six would not have worked without season five. And I am telling you right now, You go back and revisit season five.

Season five of Game of Thrones is a great season of television. I mean, I'm saying overlooked. It wasn't really overlooked. It wasn't really overlooked. The one, you know, best drama. I definitely wasn't trying to be controversial by leaving it off. And it's not, it's in no way far off of 10. And I'm not going to be like.

What are you going to do is you're going to love the final season. And you're, and you're, and. Well, I think you will. And then you're, you're going to realize that this season was, you know, obviously necessary to get. That's fair, but I also think that what you're suggesting is a slightly radical way of considering TV. It's different. It's to appreciate the different stages of storytelling that these guys have to go through in telling that story.

But that's like a completely different criteria than for everything else. To talk about, this is why we don't have 2007 in movies in TV because to talk about season seven of Game of Thrones and compare it to the young Pope and Twin Peaks and one day at a time, the show I like that I don't know if you felt as strongly about it. I have not seen it. But these are, it's not apples and oranges. I mean, this is, this is apples and cannonballs. I just don't, I just don't, I just, I just think there's got to be a way to appreciate when, when a, when a show changes gears, when there's the, the gear shifts there. When it chases down, when it paces up, you know, there's got to be a way to also kind of see the forest through the trees a little bit. I just wonder, because I think shows are going to get, I think people do have this punitive thing towards shows that don't,

deliver every, you know, every thing. What are you talking about, Sam? What, why just... I'm just saying. Theoretically. Theoretically. Number five for you, Eddie? Number five is glow on Netflix.

I loved glow. It's not on my list, but I loved it. Glow is wonderful. I mean... Sanita was great. The performance, yes. Late of Mr. Robot, let's say. But Allison Breeze's performance is incredible.

Mark Marin is really... Mark Marin is great. Really wonderful. Yeah. But also, again, the work of TV. I feel like I'm constantly looking at this almost in a meta way, but to make us fall in love with an ensemble that big with such economy and tell a story that was funny and emotional

and also serialized and propulsive episode to episode, which is a great achievement. Yeah. My number five was good place. We don't know to go over that too much. I would just say very quickly that we didn't get a chance to say about good place when you brought it up was I was not, I would love to, like, when this is finally over.

go back and wonder, is this a show that they should just put the 10 episodes up? You search party style? Because Good Place is actually, I mean, we're going through this hiatus, and I definitely think that Good Place benefits from some momentum, whether it's, hey, it's on every week, I got it. But the five episodes and then, what, two months off or whatever it is, is a little bit tough. But Good Place is a show being made in 2017, but seemingly made for 2020 or whatever, when it is all lined up in someone's content library. I mean, it's the economics of TV now.

The way we're experiencing it week to week, the show has a much longer tale, and it will exist that way. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why I got a third season. What's your number four? Fargo season three. And it's not going to be on either one of your last.

Contentious, no. Did you guys watch it? Yes, every episode. Yeah, I didn't like it. You just flat out didn't like it. Fargo was maddening to me. Oh, did you not like the other? No, this season of Fargo was maddening to me

because I didn't understand why. why there's so much learned sort of behavior. It's harder to articulate this, but basically, whether or not Fargo are these discrete stories that are separate from one another or there is an undergirding of mythology to the stories, there was something about Fargo that felt like,

the people who are watching Fargo love this show. Why are we starting from the beginning? And I don't mean that necessarily, like, do you have to start from the beginning of a story as much as I felt like, narrative-wise, it felt like we were going back rather than, okay, you guys understand the language of this show. You guys understand the pacing of this show.

So why do we have these three, four episodes of like building slowly to the crescendo of this thing? It felt like a retread more than, I think, people noticed because it has different characters. And it's like a nominally, it's like a different storyline. But it felt very much like a retread to me. But didn't season two and season one do the same thing, the first few episodes?

And then it kind of- Oh, yeah, they started slowly. And I think season one was actually criticized because I think people were like, this is really taking a long time to get out of it. But this is the show that I was talking about when I was like, I need this to get out of the blocks a little faster.

I don't need another shot of a car going across a field of snow for 45 seconds. I enjoy it. I enjoy the pace. I get that it's slow, but not everything needs to be fucking fast. Yeah, but I'm not talking about the tempo as much as I'm talking about

where are we going with this? Why is this in addition to... Did you follow? through you saw the last episode. You didn't think that ending was off the charts. It was amazing. It was cool. But I have scar tissue from the beginning of the season and just feeling like, let's go.

But that's where it was building towards. And for me, that... I think this season, again, if we were doing episodes, the episode where Mary Elizabeth Winstead's character ends up in the bowling alley bar and Ray Wise is there. Amazing. Astonishing. Just incredible episode.

One of the best episodes of TV of the year. I think the season was frustrating for me only because it was the very best of it, and then I think there were parts of it that were more challenging. I also thought Ewan McGregor was poorly cast, and I really like Ewan McGregor. Like, I really like a lot of E. McGregor performances,

and I thought that that was just... I think that the show has worked masterfully. I think season two is a near-perfect season of television because it was the perfect cocktail of all of Noah's interests and his abilities all at once. And I think that, just to boil it down to one thing, I think season three lacked Ted Danson. Not specifically that act.

Right. But I think that this was a chillier season of a show that is already cold. I think it didn't give us, and I'll just say, it didn't give me the warmer notes of humanity in there. You know, and I think it ultimately could have come down to casting because I think Carrie Coon is one of our best actresses, bar none. But her performance in that show was Frosty. Really? And I totally disagree. The LA episode? Yeah. I mean, that was anything but Frosty. I don't know how you see. say that after watching that episode. We are nitpicking here because this is not, this is not in my bottom 10. Like, it's not like I didn't like it. Right. But for me, again, I'm judging these, I'm realizing as we talk about it, I often am judging

these shows against prior successes. And for me, it didn't quite get it. But it doesn't mean it's, you know, the nature of these anthology shows is you get, you get another, hopefully you get another turn at bat. Is it, but can I, I know, I know, I know, like, you know, we're getting down there. But I do want to ask this, is this, is this any sort of going back to your sort of second, lack of newness. Is that part of it?

Is that it's the third year of this show? No, not at all. Not at all. There was something about, you know, this is a whole other conversation. Because if this was the first season of Fargo. I felt like the first two seasons were actually had like a deeply human quality. And there was something about this third season that felt a little bit more like,

watch these rube screw up their life. And I just didn't connect with it. And I think that that might just be like really mild tonal things and performance. that I'm reacting to on like a more molecular level. But for some reason this season, I just was like, I'm just not feeling the show. And I say this, and I'm trying not to talk about it, but, you know, the exuberance that was in sum of Legion, Noah clearly wants to do that. And then he is, I don't want to say he's hamstrung, but he's, you know, he's making a show in this color palette,

in this emotional palette on Fargo. And sometimes I wish that it could thaw. But it's the nature of the show, and that's why you make other ones. And maybe you'll love another, you know, he'll try it again and it'll be a different combination. of influences and experiences. What do you have for number four? Is it me? Yeah.

I just did Fargo. Fargo, what do you have for number four? The deuce. The deuce. How could we not have talked about the deuce yet? I haven't seen the deuce. I should have done that. Wow, I thought you were into it.

You haven't started it? I saw the first episode and I loved it. Yeah. And then I haven't gone back yet. We've talked about it a lot so we don't need to dwell on. I just think the deuce was a total triumph. I think that it... Yeah, it was amazing from what I saw.

We're talking about getting out of the blocks. This show didn't reveal like a classic. Simon or Simon Pelacano show. It didn't say what it was or what it was going to be out of the first two, but boy, I wanted to be there for that. Are you a Tremay? Tramay I had a hard time with. I had a really hard time with Tremay. But this one, I just love it. I think the performances, I think James Franco's performance is truly great. And as we said, when we talked about the show episodically, I think it was too short. I think that, you know, for whatever reason, they got eight episodes per season. It's got to be, it can't be a cheap show to

make. But I didn't, I just, it's rare in 2017 to watch a season of a show and feel like I really wished I had more. It was really rewarding and really entertaining. Number four was the, for me, it was the most surprising watch I had this year, which was American Vandal. I thought the most surprising watch was when I told you I watched Ozark. That was the most surprising moment of my life. This is the most surprising watch I had this year. Started the show with like, next to zero expectations because of a hotel mix up in Portugal. And I was just kind of like, we were screwed, we were at the top, very, very top of Lisbon, and like we couldn't get down because it was like, the traffic was too bad. So we were like kind of stuck in this hotel room with nothing

to do. And I had seen a couple of tweets about this show, but I was like, I guess let's give it a shot. It is hysterical, first of all. It's a, for people who don't know, in case you know, it's basically a combination of cereal and fast times at Ridgemont High. It's about two kids making a documentary about who sprained painted dicks onto the hoods of all the teacher's cars and the teacher's parking lot and it winds up taking what is essentially like that's the elevator pitch and the pursuit of this of this idea and the uh the amount of humor they are able to mind from it is like truly stunning and also it's like a a fake doc that actually commits to the bit on a level that's really really funny it was heartfelt but it's also really an amusing show you want to take a chance

on saying who drew the dicks in Portuguese like i've just called up for you i can't my Portuguese is a little rusty. It's not as good as my Irish. Sam. I haven't seen American vandal, so God, I have a lot to catch up on. Number three. Well, I know it's going to be on your list. I assume it'll be on your list. The leftovers. It's not on my list, but I just want to say

we're getting into a little bit of stuff not being on lists as being like punitive, and it's not punitive. No, this one is punitive. We are feeling punitive towards you. Because, listen, how is it not on it? They came for Game of Thrones and I let it be, right?

That's fine. So no Game of Thrones, no left of. Yeah. But sneaky Pete. Yeah. I'm just saying. You want to, I think you have to explain the left. What, what, you just didn't dig it?

I mean, I don't get it. No, I dug it. I mean, look, it was, uh, it felt a little bit more like a coda than a season. To me. To me. Sam, you talk, let's talk positive. Let's let's assume Chris was taken in October of whatever year it was. I mean, what is there to say about leftovers that hasn't been written about out there?

It's creative. It's emotional. The performances are riveting. The filmmaking is amazing. It's surreal. It's weird in the most unexpected, surprising ways. And it ends on such a really graceful. It stuck a landing.

I'm appalled. There's a lot of television that gives us a lot of different emotions right now. We are very lucky. It's a fortunate time to have so many shows. Sure. But, Chris, this is wrong. But what I would say is... This is objectively a wrong thing for you to do right now.

Maybe what I am chasing here, and this is why we've gone from four to three, so my top three are separated. These are shows that with artistic audacity that just made me levitate. Like when I'm watching the leftovers, and I try to break it down into its attendant pieces. So we want to have an episode

that's focused on Chris Ecclinson's character. We want to have an episode, okay, and we're going to set it on a sex party boat, and there's going to be a parable about a lion, and someone's going to say he's God. And if you add these things, it does feel like writers are romantic. Yeah, it sounds a little bit like the back of a John Irving book.

It's a little bit, that's actually true too. But it's also about like daring yourself, but then to pull it off. That's the thing. I agree if it didn't work. Man, what a miss. Just because it's not on my top ten is not like I've been silently seething over the left. Can I ask you a question? Because again, this just goes back.

This goes back to your criteria here. Okay. Do you not value it as much of a show is trying things or experimenting or, you know, or is that not like high on your priority? I'm asking. I'm sincerely asking. I think my top two covers those. Okay. To trying stuff. Well, and actually you, you know, you, didn't you have young Pope on yours? I did.

Well, there, you know, I was totally way off base. I would say left over just trying to shame you. I was just trying to shame you. I'll be honest. If you would ask me three weeks ago, if you would ask me tomorrow, like, I think that there's a lot of variants that could have happened in my seven through ten, six through ten. That would have meant leftovers isn't there. It was not at all like leftovers is somehow way worse. than sneaky Pete.

In fact, I was probably trying to be like, let's get a lot of shows in this top 10 and talk about a lot of different things here. I wish there wasn't this much separation because what I worry about with leftovers gone and it ended perfectly, but I miss it, is that, again, the audacity of trying to find emotional truths and emotional storytelling the way they did.

I hope that it is not just because Damon Lindelof has the clout to pull it off, that he was able to get HBO to pay for it, to get this cast, to get an exceptional writer's room and Mimi Leader directing it. I would like to see more of that ambition in the sneaky pizza of the world and the smaller shows.

We don't need the sex party boat necessarily, and you don't even need Carrie Coon, although it's great if you have her. But the show spoke to a type of storytelling that I hope. See, to me, no, I rejected on this account. I think everybody should have that ambition. Yes, that's my point.

Oh, is that what I was saying, okay. I hope that it's not just those people who have access to Carrie Coon to have. You guys are going to have bad Twin Peaks ripoffs if you keep wishing for this. I will have. do so. You know, honestly, and the thing is, it's not about being a rip-off. It's just about, you know, really, really kind of crossing the line when it comes to what kind of story you want to tell.

I really like walls. And I like boundaries and I like thinking, like, how do you make the best? What do you do within this format? What do you do in this? So you're about, you're about, and this is, this is how I feel about Better Call Saul. Right. They execute. And they execute on a high level. I don't know if it's, I mean, and actually, to, I will say, to some of, some of it is actually really daring. And I think I have a little bit of scar tissue of TV movie blurring stuff where there, I think that if you guys saw the movies that I watch and if you guys, and my top 10 movies list is relatively popular. What's your number one on your?

Of movies of the year? Ladybird. Yeah. I love Lady Bird. Yeah, I mean, but my top five. Fan the thread on there? I'm seeing it there. I haven't seen it there. I haven't seen it. I'm way more prepared. I feel like when I'm in a theater to just say, take me where you you want to take me. Sometimes, and I think that there's a lot of TV happens in an environment in which there's a lot of other stuff happening, you know, and some, it has nothing, this isn't really even about leftovers, but ambition within television, I still think has to take into account what television is, which is a thing that happens largely at home. And at home, like,

there is a communal aspect to watching it with other people in your house. There is an environmental aspect of like, what kind of day has it been? What kind of day are you having tomorrow? Like there is not that complete like you go into like a deprivation chamber when you watch a movie. And I think sometimes that has a little bit of an impact about what I want. I think, but see, that that's a weird thing to hear because at the end of the day, I think, you know, I don't watch TV. You know, the whole comfort thing, the whole watching TV to just like whatever, zone out. Like that's the Vanderpump Rules thing I was talking about. But that's not what I think we should be.

striving for. That's not what these guys should be, and women should be going out making shows for the people that are going to be on their phones while they're watching it. Absolutely not, but I don't look at my phone when I'm watching Stinky Pete, though. I'm not, I don't look at my phone and I watch billions. I don't want to step in the middle of a conversation about the purpose of art, but I do think that Sam's personal assistant is stalking us now like Mr. C in Twin Feets to return, and we should give some time to talk about the biggest shows in the year. We should have you come back and we'll just, we'll do this conversation. We have to do this. Okay, so number three for you was, was...

Leftovers, Leftovers. Ozark. Yeah, we gotta talk about Ozark quickly. Yeah. I mean, it's not on my list because I only started. What's your number three?

It was leftovers. It was the same to you. Leftovers, go ahead. You want to do your Ozark fit or does everyone know? I think, I mean, I've screamed and shouted about this show a lot. I thought it was

actually sneakily, very, very subversive in terms of how we think about protagonists and the heroes of shows in a way that I haven't really been confronted with. I thought that the slow-boil of Walter White going from

what was the Mr. Chips to Scarface or whatever was the tagline for that that he starts out essentially a Scarface's accountant and you're like right there in that moral moment with him and the amount of stuff that they did in terms of like most shows should spend two episodes talking about something like this. Most shows should be building up to this moment

for half a season. We're going to do this in the first 30 minutes and we're going to be like incredibly candid with each other in terms of characters. And, you know, I mean, I don't want to, like, belabor Ozark. I think we've been talking about it a lot. But, like, I don't ironically like their show. Like, I actually thought it was just excellent.

And it also was, it felt different than other shows. I think there's a little bit of the sameness to the look of some shows, and a lot of it had to do with the setting. But I just really was, like, never sure where this show is going. And I thought that it was, it was gripping. I will say that the, I think it's episode seven, kaleidoscope, one of my favorite episodes of TV of the air. Just well made.

We have two shows to talk about left. I think we all agree we're excellent. Oh, and so it's basically the same two shows for all of us. Yeah, my, no, I mean. Maybe the order is different. My top two are the young pope at two. Oh, that's right. But your number two is.

Did you not, my number two is Mind Hunter, which is. My number one is Mine Hunter. My number two is Twin Peaks. And you, you don't have Mind Hunter? Oh, six. We just moved past. I love Mine Hunter. Okay.

I love it. Well, I mean, mine Hunter is, I mean, it's, It's kind of like a kind of pointless for me to talk about because I'm such a Fincher fanboy. But he's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's well made in a, in a, in the classic 70s film crime noir sense. But it's also just, it's very presence, very new. It still feels very thrilling. And Jonathan Groff delivers. Yeah, can you talk about that performance as a director?

I mean, it's, well, I mean, you know. Because we had him on the podcast before I saw the last three episodes, which is, which the last three episodes of Mindhunter go, Masterpiece, masterpiece, masterpiece, masterpiece. And his performance in them is one of the great reasons why. Including the all-time, like, Zeppelin drop of any... An all-time televised panic attack. The greatest use of Zeppelin in any piece of pop culture, I think. The weird...

Yeah, I agree. I mean, the weird thing about Groff is the thing he plays, the subtext he plays, is that he's like one of these guys. And he doesn't play that at all. He plays the exact... He plays this nerdy, vulnerable, almost the exact opposite. of these guys. And yet, I sense, oh, no, that's my assistant calling, by the way. I sense, oh, no, that there is something a little off about Groff, but he doesn't, he hides it in a way

that a person like that would hide it. That character starts out and he has the, oh, I want to move up in the FBI, why I have ambition. You know, I have this sort of a wide-eyed and, yeah. And then it turns out that the thing that he's actually interested in is deviance. And he's interested in creating a new language for why these inexplicable things happen. And then the greed comes back. And then the ambition comes back. And his desire to be covetous of credit for all the things that people are starting to say, oh, yeah, I guess you're kind of right about that.

He's like, no, but we have to do it my way. We have to understand these guys my way. I'm weirdly protective of these awful, awful people because I want them to be understood through my lens. And it's all about this idea of how you use language to, how you use language to describe something and how you talk about something is what defines its reality.

Let's also just say pure servicey podcasting right now. This show, if you've resisted watching Mind Hunter on Netflix, it is not what you think it is, almost guaranteed. It is not what you think it is. It is not a murder mystery.

It is not a murder mystery. Yeah. It is deeply subversive in what it is. It is a terrific watch. It is entertaining. How would you even just go like a workplace drama? I mean, it's almost that.

Here's the other thing about it. I am so excited. for a second season. And generally, I have sort of lost that muscle where I'm like, I need it now. I want the next thing. Or even, I just, the season ends, let's let people figure it out and maybe I'll be excited again and I'll start over. This one left me at a point where I actually have a sense of where it could go, what it could be, and that's, that is thrilling. So, incredible show. You've been on before to talk about Twin Peaks a bit. I think that we all, you know, I would say that if they just had a shot of a coffee cup for the other 17 hours or whatever, and they just

had episode eight, I still think, I don't think I'll ever forget watching episode eight. I don't think that I will, you know, ever forget, like, where, like, you know, what my living room looked like that night, the way I felt afterwards. Um, I think it's underrated at this point. Like, I don't think we actually were able to process it. You know, it's, it's placement in the season is sort of strange when you think about it because I think traditionally that should be kind of closer to the end but the highs of this show are unlike anything I've ever seen. Well, the one word I always used to do, and I don't just say this about episode eight, the whole series, it's just transformative. It takes you somewhere that you didn't know

was in you, you didn't know your imagination could go and it unlocks something about mystery. You know, this is the one thing like where I was confused with the young Pope and they wasn't tethered. Again, Twin Peaks, I oftentimes did not know narratively where, what was going on or what was happening. But there was just a sense of wonder and mystery at every turn that I was excited. I was excited. And that, that alone, that balance alone of not knowing but wanting to know every single time, every scene from scenes. the scene and from episode to episode just blew me away.

It's just, it's such a sensation that I don't, I mean, I cannot remember the last time I've gotten from a movie or TV show. I mean, but it is a TV show. It is a TV show. It is not a movie. No, it's great. It is. It is one of the best

seasons of television ever. Talk about subjectivity. Twin Peaks was the most important show I ever watched when I was a kid. It transformed what I thought about art. It transformed what I thought about television. It made me super fan and it taught me about dissatisfaction because it left me hanging and it forced me to reckon with that strange feeling of I want more of the show but I'm not going to get it and I have to learn to live with what I was given as sufficient you know I learned to have my relationship to the show was changed by the way it left me and then to have it come back and have one of the central points

of the show to be about the time passing about loss about learning to live with that unsettling feeling that isn't just a show you like when you're 14 going away. It's about getting older and about life. It spoke to me in a very profound emotional level, even while it was engaging me on a visual, artistic, comedic, often scary level. I think it is a total triumph. And I know people who tried to watch it and they don't get it or they can't sink themselves to it. I get that. Some people feel that way. But I cannot say enough that this isn't a bit that I or that we like it, that other critics like it. Honestly, it's upsetting to me when I hear that. It's upsetting to me because it, it's, you know, I knew when it started airing, and I could tell nobody on set was wanting to talk to me about it.

Yeah, not even on my set. I felt, I felt like I was a little alienated there. I'll be honest. It was like one of those things. I kind of, I kind of just, and I knew, I had, like, I anticipated that, like, as, you know, wasn't probably going to get on the awards circuit or whatever. it. But I do think that if you have the patience, if you just give it a time and not expect answers or anything that you get from any other TV show and just kind of just let yourself go into a deprivation chamber, don't be on your phone, don't be in an environment where people

are walking around. You have to watch it almost in solitude, like in that opening episode. You know, It has to be you. It's you in the box. It's also important to know. I think you'll enjoy it. And I think, I hope people will check out the podcast, Sam, that you did on the Talk House podcast with Mark Frost.

Yeah. This really gets into this as well. This show, to me, was just suffused, not just with weirdness for weirdness's sake. It is emotional and it is kind. Absolutely. And it is generous. And if you watch the first two seasons of Twin Peaks,

there is resolution here. For a lot of the will there or won't they is or what's that relationship actually mean or what ended up, how did that person end up? It's there. And not only is it there, there's this kindness. towards the characters, even as they go through this bizarre journey,

there is a tenderness to them that I think is underappreciated in Lynch's work. And in your interview with Mark Frost, they talk about how, for them it made sense. They worked hard to make it make sense. And then the art comes in. And I really respect that. And it'll be interesting to see the influence it has on TV, not in terms of weak imitators. But people feeling like that they have the green light to try stuff. And then we came to the end of another year-in podcast.

What was this? Like three hours? How long? It was three hours. You may be in trouble. I think I've disappeared and come back. Thank you to Sam Asmel, as always, for his generosity with his time. Sam, what's your favorite YouTube album? It's kind of be, is it Octung Baby?

Is that the one? That's the one. That's the leftovers in the YouTube catalog. Andy Greenwald, see you soon. See you next year. All right, guys. All right, guys. Today's episode of The Watch, brought to you by Hotel Tonight.

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