The Watch - The Creators of 'Hacks' on Making One of the Best Shows of the Year So Far | Bonus Episode

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

Andy is joined by Jen Statsky, Paul W. Downs, and Lucia Aniello, the creators of 'Hacks,' to talk about how they came up with the idea for the show (1:37), casting Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder (7:30), and balancing emotion with comedy (19:45). Host: Andy Greenwald Guests: Jen Statsky, Paul W. Downs, and Lucia Aniello Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chef David Chang and the members of the recipe club sift through millions of search results to find the very best way to make the food you want to eat. Each week, they cook three recipes for the same dish, debate them, and ultimately declare the winning recipe. Check out Recipe Club on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like. like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. Tap this ad to learn more about trim fire, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official title at the ringer.com, sadly. As you can tell, I am not joined as I usually am by my buddy Chris Ryan. This is a special bonus episode of The Watch celebrating one of the best shows of the year HBO Max's comedy series Hacks, which completed its brilliant first season last week. You may have heard the two of us talking about how great this show was on Monday's episode. And so I was so thrilled to welcome the show's co-creators and the co-show runners,

Lucia and Yellow, Paul Downs, and Jen Statsky onto the show for a fun conversation about how this thing got made and how they're going to keep making it in the future. It was a pleasure to talk to those three. I've been a fan of all their work for a long time, whether it was Lucia and Paul on Broad City or Jen on The Good Place. So this was a great talk, and this is a very special episode. So celebrate, feel good about it, and know that the watch will be back with me and Chris, Thursday night for our usual second show of the week, which this week will most likely be talking about the second episode of Loki on Disney Plus and the latest episode of Top Chef. So let's get into it. This is my conversation with the creative team behind Hacks, Lucia, Paul, and Jen.

I am so very pleased to welcome onto the Watch podcast. the co-creators and showrunners of one of the best shows of the year, hacks on HBO Max. Please welcome Lucia Ann Yellow, Paul Downs, and Jen Statsky. Guys, thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having us.

Thank you so much for having us. Also thrilled, because this appears to be in celebration of June 15th, California's Everything Open Day, the first COVID-unfriendly podcast we've ever done because you guys are on three Zoom boxes on my screen, but you are all in the same room, which I applaud. Yes.

That's right. Although, truth be told, we have been a bubble for about a year, and a half. Yes. We've been together for a long time. Because we basically wrote the show and shot it and edited it all during the pandemic. So we have been together and, yeah, the whole thing was made during this really fun time.

It's an even more impressive achievement because of that. And I do want to ask specifically. I also want to say, extend my apologies, Chris. My co-host is not here for this podcast, partly because he thinks five people is too many, but also because I think he assumed correctly that I was going to hijack this and turn it into a babysitters club podcast. Oh, let's do that. Which I still might do,

spending how much time we have, because big fan, big hit in my household. I love that. Thank you. It's my Star Wars. Yeah. I mean, we're on the graphic novels currently with my children, which are outstanding. So, but anyway, I digress. Let's talk about hacks.

So the three of you, I believe, first work together on Broad City, a show that I also love very much, Is that maybe accurate? Is this the right place to begin the origin story of this show or reset me completely, if I'm wrong? Well, Jen and I actually met when we were both in a sketch group in New York. Many moons ago, we were the only two girls in the group, women, I suppose. You're making girls at the time. Yeah, we were younger.

Like 22, yeah. And they stopped emailing us, so we were just slowly kicked out of the group. But we've a made friends. Sketch comedians, always the best. We liked each other. We found that we worked well together. So, yeah, that was kind of our first. And then obviously she and Paul had already been working together and we're together.

And we all met. And yeah, just kind of immediately started working together and working on stuff. Yeah. And then Broad City, we did work on together. But, you know, we've worked on a lot since we on our movie Rough Night, Jen was on set as like a punchup writer and we've written a movie on spec together and we have done what else. Oh, well, the reason that we even came up with the show is because we were all on a road trip to work on Paul's Netflix, the character's special. And that is kind of actually when we first had the idea for hacks.

What a great segue into the HBO Mac show hat. Which, by the way, great show. We should probably get to it at some point. So the idea sort of was generated naturally between the two. It wasn't one person's dream show that you then brought to the other two. It kind of formed organically through discussions and road trips. Yeah, we were driving to a monster jam monster truck rally, yes, in Portland, Maine. We were driving from Boston area.

And so, yeah, on the road trip to the most macho event you could possibly imagine, possibly the most macho event I've ever experienced as the man in the group, was when we first started talking about, you know, a lot of our favorite comedians who happen to be women, who didn't feel ever got the same due that a lot of their mount counterparts had. So it was really on that road trip that we were talking about that concept

and these women who had been cast aside and the idea was born in your father's car. Yeah, my dad's Honda pilot that we had brought to take Paul to his character special, yeah. And I do think people should seek out this character special too. After they've watched hacks, Jasper Kooch is the character's name.

It's worth a watch. I appreciate that. And it was filmed. at the monster truck rally. That wasn't just a place you were driving on an off day. No. No, no, no, yeah. No, I was going to hijack it and allow my character to exist amongst the rally itself. It was incredible. They basically just let Paul take the mic at this monster truck rally, and he could have said anything. He could have, like, screamed there's a bomb in the world of it. But, like, it was insane to me. But the main bit of it was that his catchphrases...

Big trucks. Big trucks. That's pretty much the jest. He gave him the microphone. He does a little introduction to on Jasper Kooch. I love whatever, whatever. And then he does a call response of when I say big, you say trucks, big, trucks, big. And then he proceeds to say big, truck for four to five minutes to the point where it's absurd that it's still going on. And that's literally the entire bit. Yep.

Do monster truck rallies generally run with more precision? Like you, you acted like, should I be surprised that you were able to grab the mic? I feel like they're generally loose events. Apparently not? I am surprised still that it happened. I would just assume any large event, they're not just like, even though it was for a Netflix show, that they're not just handy because they didn't know what you were going to say. No.

So it's like they just gave them free rank. It doesn't sound like you're doing a bore ad. Like, it was for big trucks and you were celebrating big trucks. I don't see the problem. Right. There was no entrapment. Yes, there was no, I didn't do anything to make people embarrass themselves other than potentially scream in the top of their lungs trucks over and over and over again.

But I tell you what, the enthusiasm of those fans, those monster truck fans may be unmatched in their enthusiasm and their passion for the arts. It's such a simple and primal thing that the truck is bigger than other trucks. I'm sorry, I'm getting, we're digressing here. So you have this conception for the show, obviously built around a comedian character who has to be, quote-unquote, legendary, and yet it's a fictional character. I'd love to talk about how Gene Smart came to the role, owned the role, dazzled America in this role. But also, correct me if I'm wrong about this, in thinking about how this came together, I feel like when you got Gene Smart in this part, you have a show. Like, this is going to work for an episode.

But the casting of Ava feels so tricky to me because depending on how you cast that part, that's going to determine whether you have a series or not. And so I wonder if you could talk me through a little bit the, I mean, again, I could be wrong. I assume Gene was attached first and then how you paired someone with her, because that's really going to determine what this is going to look like and be and feel like. Yeah. Gene was attached first. We, you know, talked a lot about when we were writing the show,

a lot of these showbiz veterans that the character's based on, but we didn't have anyone in mind. But when it finally came time to cast the show, because we wanted to make something really grounded and really real, that had emotional moments and more poignant moments, but also was hard funny and had to have an actor who could believably be a stand-up comedian, which means you have to be really funny and know how to land a joke. The list of people that could do comedy and drama in equal measure was actually quite small, especially them being over 65. And there were a lot of parameters. And for us, Gene was always at the top of that list. And yeah, we met with her. And she turns out always wanted to be a stand-a-comedian,

had dressed as Phyllis Diller as a child for Halloween party. Yeah. So it was really weirdly kismet. But you're right, the Ava part was much more difficult. And we saw probably 400 women or so for that role. And I think that the thing that obviously requires chemistry with Gene, and we did do a chemistry read. But also, the character is built to have a place to go.

We want it to be very grounded again and realistic and someone who had growing to do. And that's a hard part to play. And when Hannah came in and read for it, she just had a different cadence and vibe. And she did the part differently than anyone else we had seen. So it was really pretty remarkable. We'd never seen her before. Weren't aware of her any way. Never going to see her again.

Spoiler. But yeah, she just really was just really... It's about a unique dynamic for sure. Yeah. How would you characterize that dynamic? Because I think that, and you may have heard of say this on the podcast, I think one of the things that she does at times appears effortless, although I imagine this is, to me, it would take an enormous amount of effort.

She's not, she's prickly. She's tough. She does things that are, you know, unlike, I hate that word, but unlikeable for an audience. And yet always is true to the. core of, I think Paul, I really like what you said, of someone who has somewhere still to go. So how would you characterize the dynamic from day one that you saw on her? Well, like you said, she has somewhere to go and somewhere to grow. And so the farther we could take her in that direction, you know, the more character development we get to have. And I think

if you know Hannah as a person, she is really so sweet and nice and, like, kind. And so even if we're writing dialogue and action and things for her to do that maybe would be tradition. unlikable. I think there's something that you can tell under the surface that Hannah has that she lends to Ava that makes you know that, like, in her core, she's a good person, even if she's misbehaving. And there's something a little intangible about that, but I think the mixture of the real person behind the character helps make it like you're rooting for her to do the right thing even when she doesn't. And she's proven to she won't always. But that then when she does, you're like, yes, that is the person I want you to be.

And I feel like you are deep down inside. And so in that way, we co-opt a bit of, I think, Hannah's likeability, in my opinion. And that helps make Ava feel a little bit more lived in, a little bit more real and empathetic and empathetic. I think it's also interesting to note that Hannah herself is a stand-up and has done stand-up, where Gene clearly I didn't know this, wanted to, but hasn't done it. You know, I remember when the last season of The Wire dropped and it was said partly at the newspaper and my friends and I who were all at least journalism adjacent were like, oh, God, everything about this is wrong.

And then I suddenly realized what all doctors must have thought watching ER or what anyone in any field thinks. I can only imagine what it's like for people who do stand-up to see people pretend to do stand-up or act at doing stand-up. How did you approach that with a show? Having one stand-up who's not doing it, you know, on set constantly, teaching someone who has to be a legend and pulling it off plausibly, at least in terms of my journalism-adjacent eyes. Yeah, I think I think that was a huge challenge in the writing of the show was writing the jokes to feel, for Debra to feel authentic and real and that like they are both jokes that

would attract a wide audience and she would still be, you know, filling a crowd in a Vegas theater, but also that they're not so good that she doesn't, again, have somewhere to go. And so that was a very, like difficult challenging part of the show that I think was like one of the parts that we kind of labored over the most. But I think it is just we also benefited, I think, from even though, you know, we've all done standup, Paul still does stand up, but we're not really standup. But we have been around a lot of like, Pauley is really a standup. No, no. I was laughing because it's true. Yeah.

Because I was like, excuse me moi. We've been around comedians. Those are the people that we've spent the last 10, 15 years of our lives, like with and working with. So I think hopefully if it feels real and that it just that kind of seeped into the writing, just being around comedians, being in comedy, understanding this sort of language that we all speak and kind of trying to translate that as authentically as possible to the page and then to the screen. But in the end, it is just a buy. You just need to buy that that's who she is because in the end, I mean, it's not something we're not really trying to make a show about

material or about stand-up. It's about the people who are. doing comedy or performing stand-up. So for us, it's still about the backstage why she's telling these jokes more so than jokes themselves. So, I mean, who knows how much we'll actually see of season two, but to me, it's like the less important part once you buy into it. It's everything up to the stage. Yeah.

And so. And even as we continue to develop Deborah's material, it's, to me, at least, like, I'm more interested in what she's choosing to say more so than what she, I don't personally need to see it as much on stage. So you guys may have heard us harp on this repeatedly because we can't get over it. And so I'll bring it to you directly. It's quoting one of the executive producers of hacks and someone Jen's worked with for a bunch of years, Mike Schur, who in an interview years ago told me that he truly wishes that you could make,

you could make your first five to ten episodes of a comedy in a bubble, throw them away. And the first one everyone sees is like the 11th. Because in his mind, that's how long it takes for all the pieces to gel and for the writers to understand who they're writing for and the actors to understand their characters, et cetera, et cetera. That may or may not be true. Regardless, we liked hacks so much in the first two episodes. And then suddenly by episode four were like noticing background players we hadn't noticed before and like willing to take a bullet for them. It felt to us that your show took this evolutionary leap so quickly and it was so thrilling to watch. And it was an assent that didn't

stop. It just ran through the rest of the season. I guess the question somewhere in there is about your thoughts on that idea and whether you felt it coming together more quickly than you imagined, or if there was a moment or moments when you suddenly realize that, oh, this is clicking the way we imagined it clicking. Well, you know, I think one of the advantages we had was on that road trip coming up with the idea. That was six years ago. So we've been talking about the series for a long time, developing the characters for a long

time. And some of the characters like Deborah Vance are based, again, on iconic figures. And luckily, we have someone as talented as Gene Smart who becomes the part. You know, there was no like, how do we write for Gene? Gene doesn't need, she, Jean is a classically trained theatrical actress, and she reads that every line of dialogue and every line of action and she does it. And the other thing for us was because we had that time to ruminate on the show, when we pitched the show, not only do we pitch the first season, we, although we didn't do it in HBO. At HBO and HBO Max, we didn't do what we did in a lot of of the other pitches, which is pitch the series finale. We've thought about the show long enough now that we know where we'd like it to go in a of course that when you have a writer's room and you have different points of view and you get the actors there, those things will change. And I'm sure season two will end up being much different maybe than we initially thought. But in terms of season one, a lot of it was kind of in place. Although it did feel good.

Yeah. You know, and it was all coming together. I've started, you know, as someone who's worked with Mike on shows where maybe like this show in a really wonderful, lucky, but also purposeful because we got to plan it so intently way felt so instantly like Hannah was Eva and Jean was, Jean was Deborah. And every cast member who like the supporting players like you're talking about just sort of instantly locked in. I never felt the way maybe even we felt on other shows where it was like, oh, okay, this isn't working. We need to adjust. And I, and I hope that is because like Paul said, we had, it was planned.

enough that like a lot of groundwork that is laid in the pilot or late in episode two pays off in episode four, five, six, ten in a way that I think hopes makes it feel very holistic. And so, yeah, it's, I've heard Mike talk about that too, but like, I think we, we just, you know, it kind of felt that we were able to look at it more holistically and we didn't have to scramble on our feet as much, which certainly sometimes does happen when you're making a TV show. And also this is for streaming, right? And, and I mean, I haven't worked on as many, like, traditional, you know, network shows. I haven't worked on any network shows. But something that we tend to do is block shoot, right? So in any given day, you might be shooting a scene from episode

one, two, or three. But because of COVID, because of a lot of different reasons, we essentially block shot the entire season. So it's interesting kind of, I mean, you know, not completely, but a lot of the time. So it's so kind of interesting to me and people are like, wow, Hannah really found her footing by episode seven. I'm like, we shot that first. We shot the scene from episode one last. I mean, I understand that like things kind of get, there's like a sense of that, but I think if people actually saw the order of so many things, they'd actually be surprised. But what I hope that is, sorry, last night, is that it's that it's purposeful that she was written to maybe feel more floundering in the beginning. And then you're like, oh,

she's finding herself, she's realizing things about herself. And then Hannah just elevated that so much because what was on the page was that was always the intention for it to feel that way. And then Hannah matches it and hopefully it feels like it comes together in a successful way. It's so good that we talked about this because I think that it's kind of a vestige of the old way of doing TV, the idea that especially with comedies, you can adjust on the fly, which is a great thing for some shows that can do that. But this narrative that people are finding themselves and it's clicking is pretty outdated. especially COVID or no, as, you know, as block shooting becomes more the norm. And we spoke to Kate Winslet, which this is a, that's a humble brag.

And she was basically like, it's a total fiction when people are like, your, your Delco accent got better by episode five because we shot the finale scenes on my first day of shooting. Exactly. But if that's how they want to understand the show, okay, that's fine. Yeah. It's positive. Everybody likes the most improved.

Yeah. Totally. I do want to talk about specifically episode 105 falling. But before we do that, because I think a lot of people have. pointed to that one as kind of a turning point both in the season and their understanding of what the project for you guys may have been, you know, how wide this can go, how deep it can go emotionally. But I have to say the moment when I was like, oh, this show has made the leap, even though you probably shot this first or whatever, was the end of episode of 104, which is after everything that's gone on when Deborah and Ava are on the phone watching TV together. And there's such a easy intimacy to the way that they talk and to the way that the show feels. and I'm just like, oh, I want to live in this.

I want to live in this moment, which is such a primal TV reaction, you know, for shows that are about, and, you know, I think this is a hallmark of Mike's shows as well, about community. Like, you want to be there, regardless of how prickly they are or how long you could actually live in a Vegas hotel room. You know, there was something that was just felt so assured and confident in that. And I guess that ended up just being a compliment and not a question, but I wondered if you could speak on that idea. Yeah, I mean, I think, thank you. We really felt it watching that scene not only get shot, but also come together in the edit and putting them literally together in a split screen, making them essentially at a slumber party

together. These two hardened women who don't have anyone else finally letting someone sleep over was really gratifying even to us. But this also, because I don't want it to seem like we as the architects of the series really had it all under lock. and key and made it work because it does speak to the talent and the chemistry of Gene and Hannah. And I will say that their chemistry was apparent from the day that they chemistry read because it was also during COVID. So they were in a huge and poor Hannah who has never acted before, has done stand up

but has never been on screen for a minute in her life, came to a huge empty soundstage with huge air filters and then sat like 20 feet apart. But at one point, Gene said, after their first scene, said, I want to tell something, I want to tell Hannah something, but I don't want you guys to listen. So we talked amongst ourselves and she went over and whispered something to Hannah. Their chemistry and their relationship almost came fully formed. They just took to each other. It was really kind of magical. So a lot of that, I think, is also getting to see them enjoy each other and getting to watch that chemistry, which I think is, that's kind of the very first time you're really feeling them.

gel is such a good feeling. And it's a big turning point for us in terms of the character development. Right. Because you do see chemistry in the pilot, but you see an antagonistic chemistry. What you see for is a casual chemistry, which I think is actually what you're saying, like the more comfortable. It's like the warm sweater. And I think the warm sweater thing with TV shows, I mean, it's overlooked and people think of it as easy, but it's kind of the meat and potatoes of why people watch TV. And you guys just did it. And you didn't overlook the importance of it. And I think you can feel your consideration of that in all of the casting. You know, when like now I want to see the great Lauren Weidman as your mayor.

And I'm like, I thought we can use her again. Like, you know, I mean, it's just like every, the consideration is up and down the board. And I guess the question I have about that, and particularly in the model of what television is now for people and what is expected of it is, I kind of want to coin a phrase. I'm going to try it out on you. The Dianu problem, which is if you just had a show where these people were wonderful and we spent time with them, like, that's better than 90% of TV pilots and you're good. Like that would be enough. But the contemporary model of TV is, you know,

to keep pushing, keep changing, throw friction, throw drama into your comedy. You guys pull it off brilliantly in this season. I guess I wonder where you guys fall on that divide because you have this base now. Like I feel like I want to watch 10 years of your show. Sorry, that's a lot of work for you guys, but I do. Yeah, it's not going to happen.

I'll take half that. But, you know, know, you also are, as we saw in the finale, throwing in not stopping with curveballs, not stopping with wrenches, you know, not stopping with speed bumps on the way to their second slumber party, in Paul's words. You know, I think we really wanted it to feel like real life. And, you know how it is when you are dealing with something painful and you make a joke to release that tension. And it is sometimes the hardest you laugh. I think for us, we just wanted to do something that felt like real

life. And so I absolutely love watching a sugary sweet show that's very comfortable to live in, and I think that's great. But I also really like watching and anxious. I love watching Succession and being anxious and feeling the drama and feeling like the family play off of each other. I like both of those things. But the thing I wanted to watch the most was honestly a show kind of like this that had the really hard laughs and also had moments that are more poignant. Because I do think that feels true to life. Yeah, I think comfort TV can be a lot of things and maybe this is just our personal feeling, which is why we made the show we did. But like to meet comfort TV is when life is reflected the way it really is. And that is the duality of both really sweet moments, really happy moments, friendship and

love and all that, but also pain and suffering and figuring that out and using the, you know, each other to figure, to get through that. And so I think, I, I, I, think that's why our show has both of those elements that you were just discussing is because we are comforted and we love watching things that just feel real and feel like the life as we know it. I also just felt continually impressed and also jealous. And I mentioned this on the podcast we did yesterday about your show, which is it just feels like you cracked the code of how to do the type of dialogue and storytelling and emotional storytelling that I want to watch on TV. And I feel like is being squeezed out of dramas because the dramas have to be so premacy and have so much plot

and machinery or IP or whatever to service it. And your show can be, you know, can be hilarious and funny and there can be weed gummies and French fries. And then in the midst of that, there is this jewel of a conversation, you know, that cuts right to the quick in a way that I wish other shows did. And I love the balance. I mean, I love that the way it can go from one thing to the other. And I guess the question I have at the root of that, you know, additional compliment was specifically in the scene work and the scene writing, which is so diamond sharp throughout. And interesting to note, because like most TV shows, you had a room, you know, there are many writers credited on the episodes in addition to you guys. When you get to a crucial scene, and I'll just pull two from the finale

just because that's freshest in my mind, but the Marcus and Wilson breakup scene, for example, it's so economical, you know, I was dazzled by that. Like you had so far to go in like a page and a half or something, and you pulled it off, A, but B, did it in the way that I was like, oh, yeah, that's how they talk, because as if I know them by now, you know, so you're, you've correctly assumed my knowledge of them, if I'd not to get too meta. So I guess when you came to a scene like that, or in a more dramatic sense or even a, you know, a bigger stakesy sense, the slap scene that occurs, I think, right.

after that. I guess, let me just ask about those scenes. I mean, obviously, there's room ideas and there's passes and drafts and things, but how did you end up in that place where the voices just sounded so natural that it felt obvious to me as a viewer that this is what would be said in this moment? There's like, you know, so much that you can, you know, starting an origin of like, okay, we knew we needed to, we wanted this confrontation of this, like, I'm doing the old material, you should do the new material.

Here's my point of it. Like, just they both are coming in with such different points. of view, right? And they both think they're right. And they both are right and they're both wrong. And so for us, it's like they are able to just throw things at each other until it gets to a peak of, well, now I'm just going to try to hurt you. And then when she slaps her, and we were actually talking about this today, her slap doesn't come from a place of strength that comes from a place of vulnerability because she's actually let her, she's hurt her. And that's the way that she react. So in a way that that like moment, which feels maybe broad in some ways, is actually like

kind of the most, one of the most of open and vulnerable moments that Deborah has of the season, right? Because like a comedian whose words are her thing, when she has no more words and has to resort to violence, that's like the most weakened position she could be in. And afterwards, she won't even look at herself in the mirror. You know, so she, we tried to tell subtle ways of like, here's where Deborah is, whether that's with dialogue or with action. So that's something. I'm just like, I don't know exactly that I responded to this. But the other, I guess, thing I would say is like from when we're pitching in the room,

we kind of oftentimes are pitching dialogue. And I think that's one way that it helps feel fresh is when you're sometimes saying it versus just committing it to the page because it can help make it feel more real. And then on the day, you know, the three of us are always, I think, trying to make sure things feel authentic and real and trying to make it like I think it'd be interesting for somebody to look at the page and then what actually ends up on screen. I mean, of course, it's interesting for, I think it's always interesting, but it is very much what is on the page, but, you know, little flourishes or somebody repeating the line that was just said to them back. That feels like something you know,

always see on the page because it's not economical, yet it feels very real. Like so when he says, we can still go, we can still go, we're going. You know what I mean? Like that says something else. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. Like that turn of dialogue is probably what made me flag it in my mind because it's not just, you know, a clever turn of phrase. It fundamentally reveals how each of them think about the world and how completely mismatched they are, right? Because Wilson was never not going to go. Like, what are you talking about? Yeah.

And it's a surprise. It feels like a very real relationship fight that we people have had, you know. Paul and I don't fight. Yeah, they're perfect. They're perfect. Yeah, I got to give all the credit to depend on that scene. Yeah, all the, all the relationship strife and you're like, this is bad. All jenry up.

That's about me and my husband. But, but, you know, it's in credit to our co-EP, Andrew Law, because I think that specific line came from him because it felt like a very real, like, jump from A to C that happens in relationship fights when it's like, oh, I thought we were fighting just about the fact that you didn't bring this up to Debra, but then you just went from A to C of, oh, now. the trip maybe isn't even happening. There's a bigger problem here. And I think those escalations and romantic arguments or friendship arguments with anyone is so,

I think hopefully that's why it feels really real to you and maybe you connected to it. Because those are the moments where it just goes from zero to 16. You're like, oh, this fight is much bigger than I even thought it was going to be one second ago. Well, it's revelatory. I mean, they're revealing who they actually are and how they see the world. And that is like stunning for the characters in that moment. but it's also really bracing for the audience because we thought we knew a certain thing

and now we know something more and we also know it's the finale, which is crushing. Season finale. So I had a question, I still have the question, about the stories you guys are excited to tell in the second season.

I guess I'm even more interested in your answer now that I know that you guys are the anti-J.J. Abrams and you've actually plotted this thing as tightly as a drum through the end, which is less than 10 seasons away. I really went hard at you on that one. I'm sorry. Hey, it was a big ask and, you know, I'll take the answer I got. You know, I think we really love seeing them, for instance, out in the desert at that antique shop,

or, you know, when they go to Sacramento to the comedy club, we really love seeing these two women find each other in strange places. And so we were very excited to get them on the road. But we also don't want to lose, like you said, people. like Lauren Weidman and people like Poppy Lou who plays Kiki, you know, there are so many people that we love and have fallen more deeply in love with that it does change the trajectory of what, you know, I think we're still going to hopefully end it in the same place, but we want that, we want, and I think this would be very true to someone like Deborah Vance, she's not going to tour like a normal person. She's coming back to her mansion. She's going to come back to Vegas.

You know, I mean, she's going to be in Vegas between stops. So I do think that that's something that has made us adapt what we're going to tell next season, but we are really excited not only to get them on the road, but to get, again, our favorite ensemble members in the show. I mean, we want to see Marcus's mother, you know? Oh my God, yeah. That's my favorite thing about, it's just my favorite thing about TV, which is we're only 10, half hours into our journey on the show. Marcus's mother, I don't know her name. Her name's Marcus's mother, as far as I know, and I was so excited to see her because he's there. It's that wonderful feeling relationship you can have with the TV show, which is, I don't know who's coming in the room next, but I'll be happy to see them.

You know, and that's the sweet spot, I think, as a viewer, and I would imagine as a creator as well. It totally is because, like, TV is such a collaborative medium, and we've said this before, but that thing Debra says in episode nine is like, when you find someone you click with, you share a sense of humor, you make each other better. That is just so true for creative endeavors, period. And so we, as much as we do have so much plotted, we know where, hopefully, like, we know where the series ends. But at the same time, like, all of the wonderful people we cast on the show have made us better and now make us want to write better. And so we will keep adapting and keep, you know, expanding the world to let them in. And that, it's exciting as a creator because you're allowed to do that.

We also get so excited about good casting. Like, there's so many people that are like, oh, my, like. Yeah. Lauren Weidman, like, I mean, I loved her on looking. I loved her in five-year engagement. Like, I've always been like, oh, my God, Lauren Weidman is amazing. And then when we saw her name pop up before I even watched the audition,

I was like, oh, my God, it's Lauren Weidman. I have to say this is, I had the same thing. I cast her on my show. And like, when she was on the list, I couldn't believe it. And then she came in and I was like, could you sing? And she was like, I guess. And then she delivers this like knockout blue velvet shantoo's performance. I mean, she's so, so good and so kind and humble and funny.

And, like, when she shows up, I'm like, yeah, they're paying attention to all the roles in casting them. You know, you don't sit and he plays out. Yeah, like, that is a thing that we literally, like, every day look at our call sheet and we're like, yes. Yes, guess who's coming today? You know, like, we genuinely do get that excited. So as much as we want to write for the people that we've all fallen in love with, like, they're saying, like, I think there's other people that we're really excited about, like, oh, my God, can you imagine if we got this first. and that was their part. Like, we do also want to include new exciting people because there's so many actors out

there that we do love and we're excited about. You know, I, as you guys could tell already, I run a very tight ship usually. And I usually can keep the questions in order. And I realized I said I was going to ask you specifically about episode five. I completely forgot. And we won't do editing trickery. We're going to be honest. I did want to ask.

It's an incredible episode and a showcase for, I think, especially for Hannah and, you know, just what she's capable of as a performer. I wanted to ask about the moment because I'm watching the show and, you know, she learned at the end of the episode, there's been a suicide and we have that moment and, you know, our hearts stop a little bit. it's directed beautifully, it's constructed beautifully, she's walking down the hallway. And I'm like, what's brilliant about this is that it won't be him, but we still, we had the cake and ate it too, right? And then she walks in and the window's blown out. And I guess specifically the decision to do it.

Did it always end that way and then you wrote backwards to it? Or was there a conversation whether you should actually go through with it and then what the fallout would mean for this character emotionally, et cetera, going forward? Yeah, we always, you know, that is unfortunately a phenomenon. of Las Vegas that people go blow all their money and if they're going to end their life. They're like, let's do it in Vegas. So that was, you know, because we wanted to really explore what it's like to live in Las Vegas and not just go there for a bachelor party, you know, we wanted to see things like that.

And also it's reflective, I think, an emblematic of what the characters are like, you know, that they have this darkness, even though they're comedians and they tell jokes and they have sequined gowns or whatever. They still, there's a dark underbelly. So we always wrote with that in mind and we always knew. that we wanted him because he was somebody who was preparing to take his life to give Ava bad advice and have something that she has to, you know, she's intoxicated by this manic pixie dream boy who's like, don't change yourself. Love yourself. In fact, quit your job. The only thing

that's actually maybe making you work harder and be self-reflective. So we did, we did write backwards. We wanted to make sure he felt just off enough that you're like, what the heck is this going to be, but also can understand why she kind of follows him. It's easier. And, you know, it gave us the opportunity to also go out of the casino and be in Vegas and experience a little bit of the party lifestyle of Vegas, too, which we wanted to see. I mean, you know, Vegas is fun. We wanted to see some of that fun. Yeah, we always knew. And like Paul said, like, he's the manic pixie dream boy. And like, I remember Paul so brilliantly directly that episode. And I remember him giving Jeff the note of like, you are the devil on her shoulder. You are whispering.

in her ear and you're going to let her take the easy way out. And this is a character who needs to change. And on that scene, like on the bridge, he pushes her. And it's like that thing when you're like, change is really hard. It's really hard when you're like, fuck, I got to go to therapy and I've got to be a better person. I know I need to. And so he gives her the easy way out. And like, we always knew that that would be the thing. I'm like, oh, okay, Ava is going to resist change and just say, yes, I'll take the easy way out. I will listen to the devil on my shoulder. and then realize, oh, that was absolutely the wrong thing, which that realization comes when he jumps out the window.

So it was always him jumping out the window. And speaking of paying attention to casting, I mean, another moment in the show where I'm like, I'm sorry, I have to pause and IMDB pro this because this guy's phenomenal and why isn't he and everything. He's excellent. And he, you know, he played Manson. So he's somebody who we were like,

he's great because he's charming and attractive, but also there can be like a crazy, His sweetness, a sweatiness, a darkness. And his songs are surprisingly good. It also earned what I thought was one of the most relatable demonstrations of a particular kind of sociopathy I've ever seen on television or in movies, which is, you know, Ava doesn't fully react to it in that moment, just as she doesn't fully, at least in a traditional way, in terms of like emotional reaction to her father's death in the end. But when her tough boss says she's a good writer, then the waterworks are so intense that Wilson should get called. I love seeing it in context of like everything, all these things we're seeing are, you know, that's not the moment the season is building to, but in a way that has been threaded and it just hit.

Uncomfortably close, I would say, yeah. Well, yeah, I feel like all of us want to be seen and appreciated for the work we do, right? I mean, that's why we're, I think, all in this. But, you know, that's another example of, I feel like, I don't know if this is, if this is conscious or recognized by. people when they watch it, but in episode two, she says, you're not a writer, you're a therapist. I get it. She doesn't even think she's a writer, much less a comedian. She doesn't even think she can do it. And then she's like, you're a writer and you're too good to quit. You know, I think, I think letting Deborah be someone who dismisses her just like everyone else and then be the only person

that sees her is why, for me, it felt so good. Yeah, we tried to do a lot of mirroring from the first episode or second episode into the final episode. So I think it's kind of, I think it'd be interesting for some people, if they've seen this season, to go back and watch those first couple episodes, because I think they might hit different in a way where it's like, you know, it's set up. And set up is, of course, hard. People are always saying pilots are hard, and it is true. But I think that we really hoped that, you know, I think we hope that, like, as a whole, if you're seeing it, then, like, there's a little bit more, in my opinion, a little more richness to the earlier episodes that maybe couldn't have been recognized until you kind of see the whole.

That's fun to go back and watch Jeff Ward, who plays George and what he does. All of his, I mean, he was really great in his tiny choices to nod to what he's going to do. I mean, you'll see him talking here and then look vacantly away, you know. And it's really, it's really interesting to watch that back. Not saying that you have to watch the show multiple times, but. Oh, you could. Yeah. I mean, someone's looking at the data.

They probably should. Well, I'm so excited you guys get to make more of this. I hope you get to make more with continually decreased COVID regulations because we didn't get into that. Because I feel like, you know, because it's not coal mining, people don't want to hear how hard this has been for people in production. But I can't imagine what you guys had to do. And I only hope that it gets easier, even though the job itself is never easy. Yeah. It's really nice to be able to connect with people and laugh without two masks in a shield.

That is really, you know, when you're making comedy, it feels better when you can smile and laugh. I won't recognize a single crew person. now. I'd be like, hi, nice to me. They're like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, well, I mean, I'm sorry. I'm the first AD. Also, Jean, who's 69 and type 1 diabetic in the beginning, we were on such high alert because we were like, we must protect this national treasure. And if we walked near her, we're like, get away from her!

Because you're giving her so much, like, air and life and recognition, but you can't actually I won't even say it. You have to protect her. 100%. That was our, like, number of 30. National treasure. Well, you've done right by her and by TV in general with this show. This first season of hacks is so outstanding.

Thank you so much. Thanks to all of you. Thanks for coming to talk to me. And Lucia, will you come back for babysitters S2? There is an S2, right? Yeah, it's wrapped. It's wrapped? Oh, this is going to go over so great in my household.

And by my household, I mean me, but I will tell my daughters also. Yeah. That's up. It's a great show also. Thanks, all of you. Really appreciate the chance to talk to you all. My gosh, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Thank you again to Lucia, Jen, and Paul for talking to me about hacks. If you haven't watched it, why did you listen to this podcast? But you should, regardless, you've been spoiled, watch it. It's all 10 episodes streaming now on HBO Max, one of the best shows of the year. And remember that Chris and I will be back later this week, probably Thursday night, talking about Loki, Top Chef, and more.