The Watch - The End of ‘Game of Thrones’ Is Near, Plus: ‘Survivor’ Season Finale | The Watch

Episode Date: May 17, 2019

‘Game of Thrones’ is over this Sunday (1:00). We look back at the penultimate episode (7:40), make some predictions for the finale (20:32), and speculate about what a Benioff and Weiss ‘Star Wars’ movie will look like (26:32). Plus, the ‘Survivor’ season finale (42:12). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Riley McAtee Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer podcast network. Before you get to the show, make sure you check out the ringer.com for our extensive NBA playoff coverage leading up to the NBA finals. Also look out for a 2019 NBA draft guide, which now features 50 of Kevin O'Connor's scouting reports. The draft guide has a first-round mock draft, big board rankings from our draft experts like Jonathan Charks and Danny Chow, and much more to come leading up to the draft itself on June 20th.

Once again, check out the Ringer's 2019 NBA draft guide. and all of our NBA coverage over on the ringer.com. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com, and joining me on the other line.

It's his penultimate episode. Well, you know, not really. It's Andy Greenwald. Is it something you want to tell me? No, I know. It could be. You're out. Is that it?

No, that's it. What's up, man? How are you? Look, Sean, the knife blade fantasy slipped in awfully comfortably on Monday. You texted me at 9.30 in the morning in mid-pod being like, are we recording today? Sunday was an emotional day for everyone. First of all, I was out of town, so we all knew I wasn't going to be in studio. Secondly, the Northman won in very disturbing ways across four hours of television,

both Toronto and I guess the nights of Winterfell. Dothraki. So I was not an A. They came out on the winning side, although there's no real Ws when you've got that much ash in the air. That's correct. That was also true

at the Scotia Bank Center, I believe. And so, you know, some really amazing names for some of the arenas in basketball, this playoffs. Is this where we're headed? Fiserve.com center,

the Scotia Center. Just flows off the tongue. Yeah. And then, Later that Sunday night, I watched the penultimate episode of Game of Thrones, the bells, the way God, the many-faced God and the Lord of Light intended, which was on an iPad in a hotel with my wife silently clucking disapproval next to me. Did she watch it too or did she just watch over your shoulder while she was doing it?

She actually watched with me up until she heard the sound effects of Jamie's sword inside of Uron's bones. and then she was like, I'm done. And so when I woke up the next morning, we hadn't agreed on anything. So I was like, let me just check in with my guy. I mean, let me check in with my man on the street and flea bottom, see how he's doing.

Turns out there have been some developments. Yeah. Yeah. But that's fine. That's fine. Look, man. Me and Varis, aka Kaya, talked and we decided that we needed to install a new king. Kaya, if in when you hear boots marching up to podcast studio two to dispatch with you,

will you take your jewelry off and put it in a small bowl for no discernible purpose? Why not take it with you? This is a challenge for Kaya. I have no clear. You know what I mean? Why doesn't know what we're talking about? That's right. The best thing is that Kai's never seen it.

Chris, do you want to do any table of contents or just assume people are rocket and rolling with us? Here's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about mid-90s American fiction published in. vintage contemporary paperbacks, such as Mona Simpson and Joy Williams. Mid-80s. Is it 80s? Yeah, man.

Yeah, okay. So, no, what I really want to talk about is the penultimate episode of Game and Thrones because we didn't get your thoughts on that. But I want to try and spin it forward a little bit, talk a little bit about what our hopes and dreams for the finale happen to be, and hit this Benny off in Weiss News

that Bob Eiger announced that their Star Wars is next up to bat and that they will have the next shot after Rise of Skywalker and their film will come out, presumably Christmas, 2022. Wow. Yeah. So we have a lot of stuff to hit. And then later in the episode, I'll be joined by Riley McAtee to talk about last night's Survivor finale, which was honestly up there with Game of Thrones for me.

Can we just take a moment and pour out a little dornish wine for the real losers here, the Confederate heads? I feel like we're going to have to wait a little bit longer. for HBO's next great racial drama. You're going to have to put that gray uniform back in storage. Damn. I was Confederate cosplaying back before it was cool. Nope, never cool.

So, Chris, I want you to know that I'm playing a little injured today. I love talking to you. I'm thrilled to be chiming in to the spirited debate about the Game of Thrones episode, The Bells, right on time four days after everyone else. I do want you to know that I returned from my travels last night. and, you know, late. So just did my best, you know, grab the PJs out of the suitcase, jumped into bed to get a little sleepy time.

Woke up in the middle of the night as people do sometimes to make a little trip to the privy. Shout out, Taiwan, Lanister. And on the way back, because it was 3 in the morning, forgot my suitcase was on the floor and basically performed an Abbot and Costello routine in miniature, in a dark bedroom. and your boy broke his toe.

Come on. Are you sure? Because a lot of broken toes are, you know, it's like, did you break it? Because they always say you can't do anything for a broken toe. You can't do anything. But did you, is that a self-diagnose? Well, the color purple that it turned, shout out mid-80s author Ellis Walker, is pretty telling, I think.

But the benefit is now everyone in the Briar Patch office here, knows when I'm coming because I'm limping to a degree that it sounds like like Bob Cratchett is coming up the stairs. Did you wake up your way for your kids when you broke your toe last night to let them know? The kids were in a different room. Okay. So I ran into their room and woke them up. Father is injured.

Attend to father. It's a sneak preview of your 70s. Seriously. Can I ask a couple of questions here? Yeah. First of all, so you're still like a PJs guy. Wow. That's your takeaway? Yeah. I want to start from the beginning. So you go full PJs.

Well, yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm not like Desi Arnaz and, you know, I love Lucy reruns. They're not buttons involved. They're not monograms. There's a t-shirt. Okay. There's a t-shirt from Nikki's Clamshack in Long Island. And, yeah, chamoispants. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I think I wasn't up on that. And then why was the suitcase in such a bad spot? See, this is the main takeaway from people such as my wife, which is maybe you should have unpacked. That's like it was late. It was late. It's not like I have an opulent room. You know what I mean?

Like there aren't many different wings or foyeres to put the bag in. It was near the bed. And that was a mistake I have to live with now for the rest of my life. Okay. So thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks for your concern. If anyone out there would like to put to a lie the assumption that we were all brought up with, which is, quote, there's nothing you can do about it. You just walk it off. Let me know. My Twitter handle is at Chris Ryan 77. Why don't you tell me a little bit about how you felt broadly about the bells? I felt that at the end of it, was it like an 80 minute runtime? Uh-huh. I had to reach for a benzopil to relax myself to go to bed.

I found it deeply, deeply disturbing. I found it technically audacious. I found it technically dazzling. I thought that the visual storytelling and often, you know, the emotional storytelling through the visual storytelling, so the wordless storytelling, particularly relating to ARIA's run. Yeah, all the one is that they did. Yeah. Yeah, it was just, I mean, it was genuinely affecting.

It was really, I found it really disturbing. And I don't even say it as a value judgment. What I mean is there are moments on the show that we are seasons away from now that I've basically, you know, that basically become, if not memes, you know, almost joke references when people talk about the Red Wedding. I don't think they really remember what it felt like to watch. that live or the Oberyn duel. And there's a feeling of sort of high-pitched nausea that this show evoked in those moments that is not something I seek out in entertainment, but is certainly

effective and memorable. And this brought me back there to a degree that was really, I was really like, my central nervous system levels were not optimal after watching the episode, which I guess is a compliment and is certainly a testament to the technical and visual work that went into it. So I definitely want to start there. In a vacuum, I think the bells, just like I felt like after the Battle of Winterfell,

those episodes in a vacuum were astonishing. And I think you can critique the storytelling in and around those episodes and some of the choices that are made by the characters or the showrunners in shaping those episodes, but the actual achievements are pretty astonishing. I think that this season, to be quite honest,

has had so many of those moments that they've almost become indistinguishable. Like, people don't really understand, I don't think appreciate how momentous what we're seeing on screen really is. One thing that really struck me, too, because it's interesting that you're bringing up Red Wedding or Mountain and the Viper,

is this idea that, because we know the show is ending, and because this core five, six, seven group of people that are left, we've spent, or we're left, we've spent so much time with, that somehow um,

our, like, our affection for the show has been, uh, pumped up so much that we're not really, we weren't really prepared for what we saw last night, even though what we saw, not last night on Sunday, even though what we saw on Sunday was very much part and parcel for what, in what Game of Thrones is. Hmm.

Tell me what you mean by that. So, basically because it's getting its victory lap and because there's so much conversation around it and because even though DeNaris is obviously breaking bad and even though whether you consider her snap earned or not has become basically the villain of this show in the absence of Cersie, there's so much affection built up for the character and the performer that it kind of screwed up our ability to process the narrative. I think that's definitely possible. I also think that's, but I do think that's very charitable.

because I think that the episode was... Well, I'm trying to look for reasons to be charitable now. Yeah, and I agree with that. I mean, once the... Literally, the trauma of the episode wore off and just the feeling of being dazzled by something that we've never seen before in television, and this is two out of...

We don't know what's coming this week, but two out of the five episodes we've seen so far this season are absolutely unprecedented for television. And, you know, in as much as we talk about this large format genre storytelling dominating the medium, what they accomplished in these episodes as a television show will resonate in the industry.

It sets the bar so outrageously high on it from a technical perspective from a production perspective. It's just amazing. But once that sort of fades away, the storytelling is deeply suspect and we can get into it and I know you've been talking about it and all of the internet has been talking about it

but I'm trying to parse the feelings. And it, you know, A few weeks ago, we talked about how people are always dissatisfied with endings. People hate when those actually in control of the show sort of rest the narrative away from the place of permanent potential that exists in the brains of the fans. That's there. And I want to acknowledge that and say that, you know, I am on the side of the creators in terms of exacting their vision. the problem here seems to be one of dueling, I don't want to say two narratives, but there were two shows, right? There was the show that was the adaptation of the Song of Ice and Fire, and then there was the show that Ponyoff and Weiss started making when they got the all clear to bring this giant bird in for a landing.

And they're very different shows, and it's very hard to square the ending of the latter version with the beginning of the previous version. Yeah, I think that there's some very simple, like, I think the narrative around what's happening has gotten oversimplified and not in small part due to the fact that some of the behind the scene stuff that Benning Off and Weiss do participate in speak to a certain casual nature, a sort of casual relationship to the source material now that wasn't there before. So when they're like, yeah, Danny forgot about the boats. It's like, come on, guys. That's not a mistake you would make in season three. So, why are you making it in season eight? That being said, I think that I've read enough about, like, the production process versus the output of the books to suggest that if they had had to wait for George,

we're talking about five, six, seven more years of their lives, maybe. You know what I mean? So in terms of actually waiting for him to finish the books and then doing the show along the books, once they had gotten past the part where they're not doing stuff like the Young Griff storyline or the Lady Stoneheart storyline or any number of really treasured storylines

that are in the books or teased in the books that got left out of the show, it is different. I just think it's a little bit more complicated than just Beniof and Weiss decided they were done with this shit and wrapped it up as fast as possible.

That's the argument that I have the most trouble with. It's just, I think it should be thrown away, basically, because the first part of what you said, I want to circle for a second, which is real people make these things. Real people have given up years and years of their life, happily, you know, with great dedication and great professionalism to bring this to life. People like Bernadette Coughfield, who I think is the line producer of the show, who I would

love to interview someday because I think what she has done is maybe the most incredible thing, maybe in television production history, to successfully manage three concurrent productions in three countries in Europe and pull the show off, you know? She just moved to Belfast eight or nine years ago to do this, and this is her life. people have other things they want to do with their lives. People have families or they want to try other things. I mean, look at Constance Wu. You know what I mean? People want to try new things after a while. Maybe they should also try media training. But otherwise, the grievances or the frustrations are legitimate. Yeah. Now, the counter to that would be, that's fine. Why not then turn the reins over to other people? See, again, that sets a terrible precedent from a network and studio perspective. You know, one of the reasons why HBO is revered is because they empower their creators. And I think that every studio says that in general meetings with baby writers. I mean, that is how you develop relationships with the next Beniof and Weiss is you say, we trust you. We empower you and we

will give you all the support and finances you need to have your vision come true. The taking it away, that is an extreme step that is remembered. We don't have agents anymore in the industry, but it's remembered by everyone else, basically. So for me, the issue is just one of, for me, it just comes down to the fact that there are two different shows. And so Game of Thrones gained an enormous amount of credit, deservedly so, for methodically and painstakingly introducing this expansive world. To reduce it down, to boil it down to this essence so rapidly feels,

certainly I can understand why I could feel like a betrayal. It feels like the game board was set for an epic game of risk, and they ended up playing shoots and ladders on it. Right. Right. Nothing wrong with shoots and ladders, but that's not what we were prepared for. And so what it also does is create these kind of orphans, these story orphans, right? You're on Greyjoy, you and I had heard about for many years as non-book readers, as an important figure. He's introduced with great fanfare. And, pretty much serves no purpose narratively other than to fill the role on screen that people wanted from this character. They said he was important, so here he is, he's important. And so then he ends up being... But by all accounts, doesn't really represent the character in the books at all. Like, that there's way more to this character in the books than what's presented on screen. And that comes straight from the actor himself who played him. Right. And so then you end up with, I think, one of the scenarios where the best version of the show, collides with the worst version of the show

on a beach outside of King's Landing where Jamie Lanister, a character who has been the beneficiary of eight years of patient building and slow development and contains all the multitudes that a great Game of Thrones character can contain in that he is both good and bad,

honorable and dishonorable. But apparently one night sleeping with Brian resets him to the factory settings like Buzz Lightyear and Toy Story 3 and he just goes running back to where he was supposed to be and then his ultimate duel is with a character

who frankly, I don't think most people care about. I was going to say no one cares about. That's not fair. Maybe someone does. Maybe the nation of Iceland wants to support their boy. Is he Icelandic? I think he's Danish. Is he Danish?

Sorry, Scandinavia. I'm on fumes here. Remember the broken toe? Yeah. I'm playing hurt. But you know what I mean? In that, like, that's not balanced.

That's not fair. And you can squint and you can sort of see, okay, maybe they thought this would make sense because Yuron was sleeping with Circey, but that's Jamie's rightful place. but nah, that works on a whiteboard, but it didn't really work in practice. Yeah, I mean, the whiteboard of it, the whiteboardness of it is represented in the fact that he gets blown off a boat

somehow swims to this one part of the beach where Jamie is at the exact moment Jamie is there. Like, that's the kind of, hey, and then we just need to have this confrontation, and how does he get there, and how does Jamie get there, and yada, yada, let's not worry about that because what we really need are these bullet points. We really need...

But fundamentally, but wait, see, I think, I think, I'm glad you said it that way because I do think that audiences will forgive coincidence in the service of a story that they're emotionally invested in. So I have no trouble at all with your on surviving and washing up on the same beach as Jamie. That's drama. That's just, that's it. What else is he supposed to do? Wash up on an empty beach? That's not interesting. But we don't care about that fight. Jamie is better and deserved better than his end. You know, I think that's that. And also it didn't seem to matter because Jamie was never really that. I mean, Searcy's like you're bleeding

and maybe that like loosens her up a little bit but he's not actually him going through that fight to get to Searcy while one more thing to add to his list of all the things he does for love ultimately doesn't matter because he dies anyway. He dies in a pile of rubble anyway.

So his challenge there is only supposed to indicate to us that he's serious about getting to Searcy which we already knew because he had gone south away from a woman who had deep feelings from him in Brienne to get back to Searcy. Yeah, and, you know, it just also seems, it just seems like a fundamental misplay

for Searcy to be maybe the most compelling and certainly most, you know, that loathsome at times character on the show that her only role in the season was to look out a window and then walk down some stairs and certainly play the living shit out of it. I mean, it's a tremendous emotional performance

when she talks about their baby. I mean, that was really, I mean, it was Mother's Day dog. I mean, that was a big, it was a rough scene. But it, it just, that feeling of missed opportunity permeates. Yeah. And I think that we have to talk about then the DeNaris thing because, you know, one of the advantages of talking about this now on Thursday, a couple days later,

is there has been a large swing back, defense of the, of the character of the episode, you know, from people saying, oh, anyone who says that that seemed like a sudden heel turn, wasn't paying attention. The show was foreshadowing what she would be and suggesting it. But foreshadowing isn't the same as storytelling. Just because you lay down a marker doesn't earn you the right to then cash in. You actually have to play it through. That's maybe a muddled metaphor because I don't understand how gambling works.

And I realize that halfway through it. But I hope my intention is slightly clear here, which is to say that she feels like she became a villain because the show needed her to become a villain. It feels like she became the Mad Queen because maybe George in one of his early communications to David and Dan said that that's what he imagined would become of her. That's not what we were given on screen.

It simply isn't. And to say that it was is definitely cherry-picking your experience in the show. The much harder choice, and I'm not saying this is the better choice, but it would have been a harder choice to sort of look at the facts on the ground and say, okay, well, here's the character we've built,

and it's not like she's going to go crazy, so then what does she do? It just felt to me like an example of a show writing to an endpoint as opposed to writing to a character, which I have enormous empathy for, believe me. Like this is really hard and I can't even imagine doing it on the scale that these guys do it on this show. But her looking at the tower and being like, no, I'm going to just murder millions, I didn't see it coming. And it was frustrating.

It was very frustrating for a show that has had a long history of troubles writing female characters are complicated. Or just simply not cheating its own story. Yeah. You know, do you think that it's a matter of, and this is something that Fantasy and I were talking about on Monday, is it a matter of if they had just done four more episodes over the last two seasons,

or do you think it's a matter of years? Like, what are we talking about here in terms of to earn what they did, to build up properly to what they did, to fix some of the storytelling problems over the last two years? I mean, I don't know. I almost don't want to be prescriptive

because I don't understand. I mean, honestly, my deepest honest thought is that it was an impossible hand to play. And if you consider it as such, the job they've done is fairly remarkable. You know, they've tried to give everyone a beat, an arc, an ending. You know, they've tried to keep track of all this stuff and keep it laced together. Essentially, you know, when you set up a show that is about the throne and then detours into supernatural existentialism, And then you resolve that existential threat in one night. It's pretty difficult to pivot.

I mean, it causes you to really, I mean, I have not pulled this thread yet. I know that others have. I'm sure Jason and Mallory have many times. But it really calls into question the last two seasons because then her arrival in Westrose becomes about the misguided, let's kidnap a zombie to show Circe what's coming. But Circe doesn't care what's coming. when I think what we needed was a lot more who is this stranger in Westrose? What is her psychological reaction to it? How does she feel about it?

How do they feel about her? You know, the show did do a good job of setting up that it wouldn't be an easy reckoning. It wouldn't be an easy landing, you know? She certainly has done cruel things in the past. But the way was also jammed together and intentionally led us to think that it was connected to Miss Enday dying either way she did, you know, that it was really just about her buddy's dying, so she snapped a little bit. I see why those markers were there, but it was missing the long game.

There's a video going around online that's a cut of her, like, right as the bells are ringing, and as the bells are ringing, it's basically a super cut of everything that's happened to her that led her up to this point, which would have broken some cardinal rules of Game of Friends visual storytelling, I think. They don't really do quick cut montages like that. I mean, I think that the use of slow-mo in the Battle of Winterfell was the first time that they had ever done that. But it was very effective. It was a slightly more effective than just her sitting on the dragon and then screaming and then going. I think that it's also an issue of characters that are, it's not just that the story was set to different paces, characters were as well.

And I think about Varus, who was one of my favorite characters over the course of the series, fantastic performance throughout. Like one of the most lived in like, that guy is that guy performances, even though he's not that guy, that guy. that you just love every choice he makes as an actor. Veris is a long game character. The whole point of him is that he knows things and he sees the bigger picture and he can plan accordingly. Once the show stopped the long game planning,

once the show started constricting, his power, his point of view, his purpose as a character, kind of went with it. So really, it just ended up with him saying, well, I think this is a bad choice because it's going to be revealed to be a bad choice and his plan is writing little messages.

You know what I mean? Maybe there's something else is going to be revealed that he was up to. I hope that that's the case. But that character loses purpose once the long game is removed. A similar example would be

Barak Dendarian, who I was a big fan of because everything about him as a backstory for a secondary character is cool. We hear about the battles he had been in in the past, how he relates to all the other characters,

and then the strange thing that he keeps being brought back to life by a pagan god for purposes we don't know. That's just, you know, it's so rich and fascinating backstory. Then he gets stabbed to death by zombies. I guess, because of Melisandra was there too, I guess the reasoning being

he was kept alive by the Lord of Light to protect Aria in her last moment so she could save humanity. Yeah. Maybe. But really, for me, it was just a, well, there is no long game anymore. So throw them on the pyre. Yeah. I mean, you're right. The secondary characters might have suffered the most in this sort of truncated last two seasons. Briefly just wanted to ask you a little bit, you know, because I thought it was interesting. When I was looking around at the Benioff and Weiss Star Wars rumors that are kind of surrounding it, it suggested that it's going to be about the old republic, which would take place a few hundred years before a new hope, or before the Skywalker's, really, I mean,

in any fashion. I thought it was interesting that there was one rumor that they are going to start shooting as early as this fall, which I wonder whether or not played a role into what happened with the Game of Thrones timeline. There's really no way to be sure. I know that Ryan Johnson also has his trilogy of films that are in development.

I don't know what state those are in, but it's interesting. Disney's going to take a three-year break with Star Wars after, at least in the theaters, after Rise of Skywalker, and kind of build out the streaming library.

They have Mandalorian. They have a Rogue One prequel, and there's rumored to be the sort of long-discussed Obi-Wan story. It would now be a sort of of Disney Plus thing. I was curious what you thought about, like,

coming out of Game of Thrones what it looks like for them to go into Star Wars. Well, I hadn't heard any of the rumors. The Knights of the Old Republic thing sounds cool and certainly in keeping with, you know, something they've done knights before. You know, they've done old,

well, they're not republics, but they've done that sort of world. So that kind of makes sense to me. I think, again, there is no version where they rushed away from Westeros. Like, this is a career-defining thing for them. It's the most popular show on television in the world, maybe in the history of the world. They didn't rush out of here.

They didn't get into pre-production on season seven or season eight, see the Star Wars carrot and, like, bounce. They gave this every, I mean, they look, I mean, if you watch those inside the episode things, they look tired. Yeah. You know, they look used up. They gave it everything. This job is hard and that job is unimaginably hard. That said, I remain a huge fan of them. and of their writing.

You know, you and I always will on this podcast stand for David Benioff's novels, particularly City of Thieves. And the only bump for me, honestly, is once again picking up someone else's story. Now, you and I talk constantly on this podcast. There's plenty of room in the larger Star Wars canon to find unexplored terrain. And if Disney's letting them do it, all the better. You know, it's fantastic that this would be potentially, non-Skywalkery. But that's the only thing that's curious to me, just because they're good

writers and they must have a lot of ideas. And I feel like they must have a lot of, even if they're not even processing it yet, there has to be a lot of baggage about finishing someone else's story the way they did. Yeah. It's fascinating because I think I am of the opinion that this with absolutely, obviously, like, not a shred of evidence. I think that they will be good for Star Wars. I think they're arguably, with the exception of Cazden and Gilroy, the best pedigree dialogue writers that this series has ever had. And I think that they've shown, especially over the last few seasons, a capability of, if not shooting, orchestrating set pieces

that would be phenomenally if they were transported over to Star Wars in some regard. So the idea of building up to executing and dealing with the consequences and fallout of large action set pieces would be a really welcome addition to the Star Wars universe because I've found that for as much as I like parts of what JJ Abrams has done

and even what happened with Rogue One, there's moments that I love, but there isn't an actual like quiet, loud, quiet, dynamic tension to the action set pieces. So I think Beningoff and Wies really know how to write genre dramatic writing.

So I'm excited to see what they would do with it. I am kind of curious about why Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Thrones are all going backwards chronologically in their storylines because Lord of the Rings is supposedly going to be young Aragorn. Thrones is going 5,000 years into the past and Star Wars would be going before the Skywalker's. It's kind of an interesting gambit. Well, I think one reason is to try to make, I think there are two reasons. One is to maintain the primacy of the original stories that those remain like the ultimate existential battles and that there wouldn't be a next battle that threatens everything that's bigger.

I think also these last Skywalker movies have really laid bare the difficulty of continuing something and it probably made people a little bit skittish. I think when you're talking about the quiet loud part of storytelling, I completely agree with you. I'll also add that specifically in terms of the loud storytelling, the one thing that I think Star Wars has never really done well, which is totally insane, is Jedi's. And what I mean is like, yeah, Jedi, what, when you and I were six years old and we were into Star Wars, you know what was cool about Star Wars? They were space nights. That is so cool. And then we were told there

was a prequel coming that was going to be about a time when there were a lot of Jedi's. And, you know, 22-year-old us lost our minds because that was the part of our childhood that we played in sandboxes and on playgrounds and loved. And then we find out that the, Jedi that we that we adored were tax collectors. And there is no greater cinematic disappointment for people of our generation that I can think of. So the thought of bringing in the Game of Thrones people to tell a story about Old Republic Jedi Knights, maybe battling on a large scale, that's cool. I mean, I try to minimize my fanboying, but that is like a ir-text fanboy, you know. And they've still never done it that well or right, which is, I think maybe people argue that

I think people really like the cartoon. The cartoon said in that world, but that's a bridge too far for me. But that would be cool. Why not, right? Anything else you want to hit for Thrones before we let you go? I'm just curious, because I've been off-world in Star Wars parlance. So I'm not really sure how things have netted out. I still think in the debate about the show, it feels shocking to me on some level that it's

ending with one more episode. Maybe it's because of the way we were away for a year and then we've raced through these final episodes that have left us with such conflicted feelings. I still stand by my, I think I gave this ratio a couple weeks ago, but I still feel like there are people who, there's a sliver of people who really didn't like the episode for storytelling reasons. There's all of Twitter and the internet content machine. And then there's the 15 million people who watched it and loved it. I think that that's probably still, those numbers are probably true. Really funny experience the other last week

on Saturday I got my haircut. And it was 10 a.m. Saturday in L.A. where I was getting my haircut. And independent of me and my barber, there were three separate conversations happening about the show. It was unbelievable. Now, you could say,

okay, Los Angeles and maybe it's the entertainment. But it was sincerely like, I've gone to my barber for three, four years. he's like intermittently in touch with popular culture. It was sort of wild to like just hear each different chair was like, damn, did you see Brian and Jamie got together? That was amazing.

I wonder what's going to happen with that. And it was like, oh, I realized, and maybe it's a function of what you and I talk about because hilariously, like I saw a statistic today that I think like Big Bang theory still is like neck and meck with Game of Thrones in terms of ratings. But I don't even, I don't remember a single time. at least since I've moved here, when I was in a room outside of work where I heard so many conversations

about the same television show. Yeah, and I think we're going to miss that. I think that's sad that's going away. Even if it's, you know, even if in some pockets the conversation is sour or negative. I mean, I still think the fact that we're talking about the right way to do storytelling is a net plus and is fun. But that said, I wanted to check in with you.

Like, where do you think, what, you have your finger on the pulse of the barbershop, just like LeBron James on Showtime, or is that on Showtime? HBO. Anyway, HBO, an initial investor in The Ringer, I believe. Do you, in us? Where do you think, where do you think the world is with this show heading into the finale? I honestly do think it's something of a bubble thing. I do think that a lot of people who care very deeply about this story from the books or are obsessed with the mechanics of the storytelling from the show are being left disappointed. and then I think there is a

huge chunk of the pie that is just like, that was really good. Now, I do think that I've noticed the Monday morning quarterbacking of the plot mechanics has gone somewhat more mainstream within a media Twitter circle. Like, I'm seeing people comment on whether or not something was earned or not,

who I usually don't see talk about Game of Thrones or television storytelling that much, which is a big tent. I'm really happy to read other people, perspectives on it. It's just interesting that that is what is caught on rather than, man, that was a cool episode last night or I can't believe that happened. But I do think ultimately what will happen is seven and eight will be looked at as a piece, as one season almost. And it'll kind of go down in history the way a lot of shows end, which is, God, that show is so good.

I didn't particularly care for the last season. That's the way. Yeah, I think that's probably fair. That's the way people talk about loss. That's weird. People talk about, you know, and maybe not the Sopranos, but people talk about that about a lot of shows that that are considered Hall of Fame shows. Yeah, and I think that, especially as we've moved on from it, you know, to use Lost as an example, like when I think about that show, I think about just the pure joy I experienced watching it week to week and thinking about it and how much fun that was and how instructive and informative that was to my growth as a viewer and as a writer, you know, and that's the dominant experience. And same thing with the wire. Like, that last season is no bueno in a lot of ways, but nobody remembers that, or everyone remembers it, but no one mentions it because that pales in comparison to whatever, to the things that mattered the most about your experience with that show. Totally agree with all that. But the interesting thing about the wire is that we don't know what would have happened if

the continuing adventures, or if young Lester Freeman had come out a year and a half after the wire. And that's what we're going to probably see with Thrones is that we've got the long night show, whatever it is, and then we've got George R. Martin saying in a blog that several other shows are currently in script slash development stage. So we could see three other Game of Thrones shows. I mean, this is a property that will, has the potential to rise up to Star Wars levels in some ways. Quote me on this. The gap between this Sunday's finale of Game of Thrones and whenever this Naomi Watts-led long night show airs or premieres will be the longest time we go without a Game of Thrones show on television for 10 years. Yeah, I would not bet against that at all.

Which is a very different way of approaching something that's ending, so because it's not kind of not really ending. Do you have any predictions or thoughts going into the finale that you want to run the record here? Mal has totally like gotten in my head. I think this show is, it ends with John Snow wandering out into the north alone. Shane style. You know, just by himself. Wow. And I don't think Danny makes it through the episode. But crazier things that happened.

So who's on the throne? I don't think there is one. Wow. Yeah. I've just spent so much time with Mal that, like, I just parrot her opinions now. Does Tyrion survive the episode? That's a great question. I don't know.

I don't think that there, for some reason, I don't know that the main characters are going to slaughter each other. I think it's more of a reckoning. Should Manny Machado have re-signed with the Orioles? I just wanted to test how many of Mal's opinions you're willing to pair it in a public forum. We'll be back you and I on Monday morning to talk about the finale. So I can't wait.

I'm looking forward to it. It's the best birthday present that kid could ask for other than a whole set of 10 working toes. Happy 39th birthday. It's my third straight. I am. Dude, my mom was 39 for like. six years there for a while.

It's a smart move. Yeah. I'm suddenly in this endgame standing Tyrion and Sansa. They're the ones that I'm interested in who are left. I like their little moments over the last few episodes, but because this shows changed its perspective and changed its timing, like my compasses all spun around. I don't know if those moments existed anymore because they were foreshadowing something or because in the spirit of economy, they were just trying to address every pairing that had ever

existed while the characters were in the same plane of reality. Yeah. So maybe that's fun. Maybe it's, you know what? Here's my take. We no longer have any idea what's going to happen. So let's enjoy that. How about that?

How about that guys? A couple more days of not knowing. All right, Greenwald, I'll see you Monday morning. Always a pleasure. Great job listening to Chris and Riley talk about Survivor Branskins. I got to go. Bye. Bye.

All right, I'm going to be back in just a quick second to talk to Riley McAtee about last Night's Survivor finale, but first a word from our sponsors. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Coach, ready to dream it real. Salima Gomez, Michael B. Jordan, and Maisie Williams certainly are. They're part of Coach's new Dream It Real podcast, a series for those who dream. Well, okay, not just those who dream, but those who take action in creating the future they know is possible. It's all part of Coach's Dream at Real initiative, and it's hosted by Heben Nagatu, who you may member from the hit podcast Another Round. She spends each episode chatting with actors, athletes,

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All right, I'm joined now by the ringers Riley McAty. You can hear Riley on the precapables Game of Thrones. For one more week. So you guys, are you guys going to do a show this week? So yeah, we have a show on Friday previewing the final episode of Game of Thrones. And then you're going Monday morning. We're going to do a Monday morning like recapables episode for the finale as well. I want to talk to you about what might be a better television show on the Game of Thrones right now.

Definitely a better television show. I would say though that last night's Survivor finale, so obviously Riley and I will spoil who won Survivor so this will be a short conversation for you if you don't want to hear about that. Last night's finale, I was as captivated

by some of the drama in that as I have been during Thrones. Now that may speak to like the numbness that I'm feeling about Thrones to some extent, but the actual, there were a couple of moments last night that were incredible, but you have some pretty out their takes on this whole thing.

Well, I mean, I agree with you that it was, some of the moments were fantastic. Yeah. So, let me, let me, why don't we break down what happened first? So, right. So they did this edge of extinction twist. Right. And so one player was able to win his way back into the game. You get voted out of tribal.

You would have to go to this like hard scrabble beach. You were out by yourself and then slowly joined by the other people who voted out of Survivor. But you didn't really have anything to do and there wasn't a lot of shelter and there wasn't a lot of food and there was no challenges or activities. You were just kind of stuck there. Right. And so they got down to a group of five and then they allowed one person to win their way back in. And this guy, Chris, won his way back, making it a final six again.

So they had a group of people. It was this guy, Rick Devons, who had essentially run the table. Right. Interestingly, he had also. He won his way back earlier in the season. Earlier in the year, he had been in extinction, but he got back on. And then after he got back into the game, found five idols. I have no idea how many

because he was constantly also making fake idols to throw people off. Andy won a bunch of immunities. He was a low-key challenge beast. Was always operating from basically... The bottom. The bottom.

It was just like one of the more impressive Survivor runs I've seen. I also think smartly or somewhat misleadingly, they edited the show in the second half of the season almost entirely around Devon. So like essentially when you're watching Survivor,

you can sometimes see, I know this happens with Bachelor 2. You can start to see like a hero's edit. You know what I mean? Like, oh, this guy's getting propped up. So they get to the final five. Devons is honestly slam dunk to win this thing, if he can just avoid any screw-ups.

He had some previous relationship with Chris. Both he backstabed Chris and got him out of the game in the first place, but then they made amends on Extinction Island. Devons gets back in the game, Chris gets back in the game, and they make this basically like oath to each other to take one another to final four. Right. Which they did.

Well, because the other part of it was when you come back from Edge of Extinction, they give you an idol, but you can't use it that tribal. You have to break it in half. You have to give half of it to a different member. And then after that tribal where you're vulnerable, that person can then choose to give you the half back and now you have an idol that you can use.

And there's a brief moment in last night's finale where Chris has broken his idol on half, gave it to Devons. They make some agreement like basically, you play your idol tonight, you're safe, then you give me this idol the next. night and I'm safe. Right.

And Devin's agreed to that, and Devin's followed through with that and gave Chris his idol back. So their little kind of core brought them each to the final four. To the final four. And then Devin's in one last sort of piece deistance creates two fake idols that he had had sort of he had been working on over the course of the season, but wraps them in authentic idol literature essentially, like pamphlets about them and hides them in relatively obvious spaces and Julie and Lauren both find fake idols, play them that night, they're called out, Lauren goes home, so there's a final three or final four of Devon's Chris, Gavin, and

Julie. Very tragic for Lauren because she had played her real idol, the tribal before, on Chris when she didn't even need to do so. Which I thought was like... And then played a fake idol and ended up going home. Right. So the dramatic moment, if you're falling along, is what happens at the first. final tribal, which is there's four people left. There's three that will go to this final jury vote.

You have to make fire. That's the final immunity challenge or the final challenge. Well, yeah, so there's a final immunity challenge. If you win that, then you pick the two people who make fire and the loser goes home and the other three are the final three. You pick one person to be safe. So Chris, who has won the immunity challenge before firemaking, takes off the immunity necklace, gives it to Julie. Yes. And says, I want to do fire against Devin's to get into the final three. Yes. And it's a breathtaking moment because Devin's is essentially done every single thing right

throughout this season. Chris has been on Extinction Island for almost a month. Yeah. Comes back and I will say in a compressed two-day or however long that that last episode stretches out across, does just about everything he could have done? Like he almost comes in and it's amazing. people's minds are like blown when he comes back in because they completely start playing with him.

They could have just been like, you're back, but you're out. Right. Well, because there was also a desperation to try and find a way to get rid of Devin's, so you sort of do anything that you can. But he didn't. He initially was like, I'm going to take Devin's... Has to work with this guy, yeah. Because beating Devin's in that scenario.

It was almost like he spent the entire time on extinction visualizing how he could make a convincing case to a jury with only X amount of days of actual gameplay. The moment that he won the immunity necklace, I'm a huge game bot type. I'm always thinking of the different permutations of strategy and everything. And since they've introduced this firemaking twist at Final Four... So how many years have they been doing that?

I want to say this is the fourth season, roughly. I would have to look and check. It's around there. It hasn't been that long. Not a fan. I'm not a big fan of it, but since they introduced it, one of the things that I have thought of immediately that I know has also been speculated by many fans

is that if you win that immunity, you should give it up if you think you're the best firemaking person. Sure. And then do the firemaking yourself against whoever is the obvious person to win. Okay. Because the other thing is not only do you have a better chance of getting that person out, Chris knew he was the best at making fire. so he had the best chance of getting devins out.

Did I miss some like Chris makes fire like montage before that or is he just was just known that he was like. When he was talking with Gavin and Julie, he was like, I'll show you guys how to make fire. I'm like great at it. And like it was an edit. Totally was like, oh, Chris is the fire making master. We should also mention that Chris not only gave Julia's necklace, he helped Julie win a challenge before that. He stopped doing a puzzle to help Julie do a puzzle. and then Julie brought him on reward

so that he could have lunch with her. Right. Yeah, well, and because you don't eat on the edge. But it was just another little, like, now you've got Julie, now you've got Gavin. And so he's actually, like, I was so impressed watching him do this in just a short amount of time.

But I couldn't help but feel like, and I know you kind of agree with me, it was incredible television and it was terrible survivor. Yeah, well, because he gets the big moment in front of the jury to win the fireman. challenge. He also, you have to consider when you're on the edge, that is the jury. So he had like 28 days to build relationships with the people who ultimately voted for the way. He's fishing,

he's making breakfast, he's making fire, he's helping people work through their feelings, all that stuff. No one else who sat with him on final three had that same advantage. In fact, like, you know, often if you're going to do this edge of extinction twist, those people who didn't end up going to the edge of extinction will be people who played a role in getting some of those jury members out of the game, which is part of the tension of Survivor is how do you get to the end without backstabbing so many people that you lose all of their votes? You essentially have to be a Tony or a Devons level player. Right.

You can't kind of play middle of the road survivor because then you wind up being like a Gavin who's like, well, nobody ever disliked me, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, you can win that way if you're like a Sandra type, you're the only likable person left and they just vote for who they like. Or you can play so hard. Like Devon's, not because he was in the majority alliance, but because he had so many advantages did play a role in getting a lot of people out.

But I think he built up so much respect that he was just a juggernaut. But, you know, Chris went out on day eight. So he had no chance to, like, leave anyone bitter or show his gameplay or anything, which is why he had to play so hard at the end. He had nothing to lose. And he played hard at the beginning, too.

That's the thing. is there's no real evidence that Chris's style of gameplay is sustainable for more than like three episodes. Right. I mean, if you make the big move, often you then go home the very next tribal. That's what happened to Wardog this season. He made the big move and then the very next tribal he was gone. So they take, they go up, they make fire. There's a little bit of drama. But essentially like Chris just donks on Devons. Like he makes fire. His rope snaps. He wins. Devons goes out despite putting up this incredible stat sheet over the course of the season. Right. And Chris goes into the final three with Gavin and Julie. Gavin seems like a nice enough guy, but his only real resume

builder was no one ever wrote my name down. Which can be a double-edged sword because it means you were never a threat or never played a big enough game to ever have anyone write your name down, right? It's like if you just coast the whole game, yeah, maybe no one writes your name down because they think that you won't win. And Julie, who didn't really have a resume at all and was basically like all those times that I had kind of like, that I got really emotional. And like I was snapping at people was actually a, like, strategy. Right, right, right. It's always interesting when a contestant sort of like retroactively tries to say this was a strategy.

This is like you're not sure. I wish that Julie had gotten more screen time, though. I feel like of everyone, I barely knew her. Well, this was an interesting season because they did do some perfunctory stuff on edge of extinction. And I think that the tertiary characters on the regular beach suffered because of that. Well, and because then they also had to give so much shine to the four returning players, too. Yes. That it really, it felt like a messily edited season.

So this was a season where they brought back a couple of fan favorites like Kelly Wentworth and Joe and David. And there was a... Aubrey. So really beloved players. I love Aubrey. I can't believe you just forgot her. I love Aubrey. This is probably Aubrey's beef, too.

I love Aubrey too. I'm sorry. And so you're spending a lot of time on them and like why they've come back and what they've learned. And then usually what happens in a season of Survivor is that there's a lot of chaos in the beginning and you can barely remember anybody's name.

But as that pool shrinks, you start to develop kind of like an understanding or relationship with the remaining characters. But there was really no no one ever really died on this show. They were always kind of like Ream, who went out on day one and stayed on

Edge of Extinction the entire month plus got more screen time or as much screen time as Julie, maybe? Maybe not statistically, but I felt like I was way more being kept up on like,

this is how Ream feels. She always got that right at the end of every episode, just to dig at whoever was coming in. You're not going to get any sympathy from us, buddy. Yeah, it was always that. She was like the third biggest star of the season, which is insane.

But this is kind of, so what happened was essentially, I don't know, there's so many different sports analogies. It's like the Brady Moss-Pats losing the Super Bowl. It's like, I don't think Devons was that dominant, but it was kind of like this result does not speak to the accomplishment of the player at all.

Or the person who like defined the season, right? Devons defined the season and he loses, which is fine, but it's weird when it's a guy who we barely know because he spent almost the entire season on edge of extinction, not getting any screen time. And frankly, it was like one of two or three tall bearded white guys. Right. Oh, I did not. I could not tell the difference between Chris and Eric, who were both on the edge for the longest time until basically this episode when Chris went the way back in.

The weirdest thing that happens is so that in Survivor, once they finally go, once they finally go to the final jury and they're in the jury, they get to go to the Ponderosa, which is essentially like you're in this, you know, really rough environment, but then they get to go to essentially like a resort. Yeah. While they're waiting for the... You get a little vacation out of it. But Eric didn't like gussy himself up at all. So like everybody comes out and they're wearing like their cool out. fit and they've got hair and makeup and they've eaten and they're like starting to look better. But Eric was wearing like his cutoff dress shirt with a tie and like he was still wearing his

buff even after the Ponderosa break. Did you notice that? I didn't notice that. Yeah, it's really wild. Like everybody is like like everybody's wearing like maxi dresses and chilling out and Eric's still like, no. He just forgot to take a shower? Yeah, I don't know what was going on to.

Oh my God. Anyway, yeah, I thought it was like incredible, incredible television. The final jury itself was even building up, like it looked like Gavin might win for a second, but Chris won. And yeah, tell me a little bit, because I think you said that you were like kind of coming to grips with not loving this season.

So, I mean, for me, I like seasons that have fewer advantages in play. And so, like, one of the big problems for me happens at final five in this season, which is when you have, so Chris's idol that he got coming back from the edge of extinction, then Devin's had an idol. And then Devin's won immunity, so he gave his idol to Gavin.

To Gavin. And so what you had was, in a final five, three people who are immune. Two of the people, both of whom were immune, had already been previously voted out in the game. And so only two people can go home. And it just feels like too much to me. I want it to be about voting people out. I wanted to be about a social game and a strategic game. And I just feel like there's too many idols.

Like when Devin's uses one of his idols and then comes back and immediately finds another one Like the same night And then makes two fake idols So that Lauren and Julie and it doesn't occur to either Of Lauren and Julie except Lauren briefly is like It seems weird that there were three when there was only this

But yeah And that was actually just like They got got by Devin's That was just like another reason why Devin's should have won the season to me But I understand what you're saying I think one of the players I think it was Julie was like this is actually a pure,

like my argument for myself is actually going back to the original kind of like bedrock of what Survivor is supposed to be where you play a social game and you make alliances and there is loyalty. Right. Which I think from my understanding, because I've only

really been watching for the last like six years, five six years, is more of a recent phenomenon of like constant blind sides and constant kind of like, you know, mini alliances within alliances that are like doing game theory 15 episodes ahead. Yeah, I mean, my favorite seasons are when you have at least like three people who stick

together. And because then it's also easier episode to episode to figure out where the lines in the sand are, basically, and kind of which sides have power and don't. And a lot of times in modern Survivor, those battle lines are just shifting all the time. Right. Everyone is flipping around. And you have idols everywhere. and advantages everywhere and different kinds of things going on.

You had like a few seasons ago during an All-Star season when Surrey went home without any votes being cast because it was six people were left and five of them were immune. She was the only one without an idol. It's stuff like that that just drives you nuts. It grinds my gears because I'm like I want it to be about voting. I want it to be about this social experiment where it's like how do you run the game without being a threat and all of that balance and tension is what's so interesting to me. but when you introduce so many advantages, you start to lose some of that. Yeah, and then it's interesting because

there was a moment in the reunion when Jeff's talking to Joe and Joe is this kind of like swash-buckling, like California bro, who my wife is in love with, who like a lot of people are very, very affectionate towards. But just basically we'll go on a run

where he wins like six immunities or like five, like so many of these physical challenges. I think they actually went through his stats and he's been like part of 31 challenge wins. Yeah, I believe that's what Jeff said. But then as soon as the game gets real on like a strategy level, like gets Xed out.

Right. Because he's not super great at strategy, but also it's that he's such a physical threat that it works against him. And Jeff is like, do you think a guy like you will ever win Survivor? And he was basically like, no. Which is they're making Survivor easier for guys like him to win, right? The fact that you can build fire at Final Four instead of going down to a vote gives you an extra chance to win.

The fact that there are so many immunities, for somebody with a lot of stamina and, you know, athletic ability basically can probably find idols a little bit better than people who are going to be more tired. Like Joe can just tirelessly look around for idols. He hasn't done that, but we've seen like Devons do that. You know, it was his ability to just always be moving that kind of led to those idol finds.

And we saw Ben do that a few seasons go too, right? he was just constantly looking for idols and he found him. He idled his way all the way to the end. Yeah. I know that the next season you were like, loll, what is this? It's basically it's a regular season of Survivor by all appearances

except for the fact that two iconic players, Boston Rob and Sandra, Sandra's won twice. Sandra's the only two-time winner. And Boston Robb is like this hugely popular figure in Survivor lore. They will be on an island with Easter Island-style statues of their faces on the shore. And people can come to them for strategy advice, I guess. I wonder if it'll be more than that, too.

I wonder if they will hand out certain advantages in the game or have more of a role to play. It would be even wild if eventually they get back in somehow. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like they're not going to be playing, but I can't imagine it's just them being like, well, you know, form an alliance or whatever, right? I think that they'll be, I mean, this is the 39th season of Survivor.

They've shown that they love twists now. There will be something. And then the rumor is that 40 is going to be champions, right? The rumor is it's an all-winners season for 40. Okay. Which is really, because Jeff has talked about before how an all-winners season, which I've never done before, is very tough to cast for because you need equal number of men and women.

You need a certain number of big personalities, and a lot of winners have been like a little more subdued, kind of like Chris, you know. He's not Devin's, right? Well, Chris just didn't actually put together a video resume, even though he, like, won. And he were like, oh, immediately you're like, this guy is going to come in second if he doesn't,

or win if he stays in. He just wasn't on the show enough to be like, oh, that guy's obviously going to win. Right. That's a little unfair to Chris. But he's a little more boring than a Devon's thing. So you have to cast the, like, the Tonys out of the winners, the really big personalities that have won before.

Sarah, yeah. Because you have to get a good mix of. Sarah's a little bit more. we're retiring. Yeah. Right, right. Yes, Sarah's a little flatter, which is fine,

but you need a mix of both. And so, I don't know, it'll be interesting to see which winners they come back with. Yeah, we'll be. All right. Riley, thank you so much for coming by.

Thank you. So you guys say thumbs middle on this season. Yeah, I think thumbs middle. I like the finale, but I don't know. I'm just worried about the direction of the show overall.

It feels like it's moving away from what I love about Survivor. Interesting. Okay. I'd be curious to know what other people think. Thank you so much to Riley. Thank you to Andy.

We'll be back on Monday. Monday morning with the series finale of Game of Thrones. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Coach Ready to Dream at Real. Selina Gomez, Michael B. Jordan, and Maisie Williams certainly are. They're part of Coach's new Dream at Real podcast. A series for those who dream. Well, okay, it's not just for those who dream. It's for those who take action in creating the future they know is possible.

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