The End of Marvel on Netflix, Plus the Penultimate Episode of ‘True Detective’ | The Watch (Ep. 330)
00:01Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Bud Light.Did you know not all alcohol products are required to list their ingredients?That was news to me.Bud Light is changing the game.They believe that we deserve to know our beer's ingredients,so they put an ingredients label right on their packaging.Bud Light, brewed with hops, barley water, and rice.No corn syrup, no preservatives, and no artificial flavors.
00:24Find out what the ingredients are in your beer.Bud Light, enjoy responsibly.Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Microsoft Surface.The new Microsoft Surface Pro 6 can help you get things done, whether you're on the field or running a business.Take Brian Arakpo and Michael Griffin two former NFL teammates who have opened a cupcake shop.With the Surface Pro, they can do everything they need from setting schedules to creating promotions for social media and designing new flavors.Plus, it's light super fast and has a great battery life.Brian and Michael are proving you can tackle all your passions with the power and speed of the new
00:58Surface Pro 6.I need sports to have to clear the room.Stand up and walknow. Now.Hello and welcome to The Watch.My name is Chris Ryan.I'm an editor at the rigger.comand joining me in the studio
01:16wandering towards the flame of the 90s.It's Andy Greenwald!I was worried you were a little low-energy.No, I got it.No-end. Because we have1,600 pastries in the studio today.It's President's Day, it's Monday.Greenwald's here in the studio.
01:29I love it.I love it.on the decks.We've already givenKaya, I think,six or seven desserts.We are pre-apologizing.So we have a little bit of sugar rush
01:39going on in here.We're going to be talking aboutthe official cancellationof Netflix on...The official cancellation of Netflix.Netflix has been canceled?Oh, no.The official cancellation
01:50of Daredevil on Netflix.That already happened.Thanks.We're going to be talking...The end of Marvel on Netflix.Yeah.We're going to be talking a little bitabout the end
02:00Marvel on Netflix and what Netflix is replacing it with,which is the Umbrella Academy to some extent.And then later we're going to talk about True Detective.Got anything you want to get off your chest?No, look, I just, I'm so happy to be here.I love it when you're coming to the stude.You look great.I said to Andy yesterday, he was like,
02:18we were trying to decide what to talk about.Kai's going to love this.And, you know, he was like, it doesn't matter.We'll be in the stude.And I was like, it's like the All-Star game.Little effort, but lots of highlights.That's right.That's right.
02:33Will you let me know when I successfully bounce past a dunk to you?Yes.Maybe when we're talking about true detective.You know, I'm so happy to be here.I love podcasting.Are you vamping right now?Pastries.Only a little bit to say that I'm very cute.
02:50I almost want to know and I don't want to knowwhat our cue score is when we devote the beginning of our podcast,as we have been doing recently to matters.Of home economics.Not pressing.Not so pressing.You know, I had some thoughts about wedding registries.Chris had some questions about how to remove an onion stench from a cutting board.
03:11It's not like an onion skunk came into my bedroom or anything.It's just that we've been making the stew, hashtag the stew.More than once.A couple of times.We made it once successfully.Let me guess.We tried then to double the point.portion and it didn't go well.
03:31As Alison Herman explained to me, I needed a bigger cooking service.We've got to do it in two separate things or whatever we do.Allison Herman from the ringer or Alison Roman, the recipe author.Allison Herman from the ringer who is somewhat of an Alison Roman expert.Got it.And then we made it again and it was fine.But it's just onion season up in my house because of that.And I had, as I do every morning, thinly sliced whole grain bread.
03:53Oh my God.Are we doing this?Toasted with almond butter and sliced banana.and I chopped up in my banana.I threw it on my toast, and then I was like,this goddamn banana taste of onions.By toast, you mean English muffin, I imagine.Not anymore.
04:08I know I'm so thirsty for that.Not anymore.Don't even know what, I can't even imaginewhat nook and cranny life is like anymore.It's so sad.I feel like I'm like a, I got out of Shawshank.Now I don't know what it's like on the outside.So before we, so we're going to talk Umbrella Academy, True Detective.
04:24I'm excited to talk about both, but I am curious because I haven't been here.I mean, I've been here, but I haven't been sitting with you, looking you in your baby blues while we talk about this.The other week, in my absence, you did a very cool thing.Oh, yeah, right.The programming grid.Programming grid.You designed your own must-see TV night based on what you've been watching, what you're excited about.Yeah, so we set it from December 1st to, yeah, like last week or whatever.
04:47And it was you build an 8 p.m. through late night programming grid that would imagine, okay, you get home, they have your dinner, plop down on the couch.and you dial yourself in for prime time and late night,the way our parents used to, kind of.And I thought that was a great idea.Thanks, man.I'd love to contribute.Do you have one?No.
05:07Okay.Well, 7 p.m.Top Chef Jr.Uh-huh.7 p.m.With my older daughter.Okay.And that's about it.
05:19Are you going to be like a weird figure skating coachabout making your older daughter become Top Chef?No, she loves it.It's so fun to watch with her.She is saying that she never wants to be on the show.She wants to go to the place where they're having their food truck competition next season and sample their wares.Really?Yes.
05:37But she also said that I should be on the show.You should be on Top Chef Jr.?Or any Top Chef, which is the nicest thing anyone will ever say to me.How would you do a Top Chef?Terribly.Yeah.Terribly.Why?
05:48Because of the pressure?I'm not a fast cook.Nor am I a deeply creative cook.I can do my things.Yeah.But that's about it.But I wanted to ask you, because I don't really have a grid at the moment.But I was curious how, when you were putting that together in the context,
06:04did you feel that there were a lot of things you were super excited about?Like, would it change, if we were doing it in two weeks,or if you were doing it now that Umbrella Academy had premiered, or whatever,would it have shifted, or was this more of a snapshot of the type of TVthat you're watching at this moment and what makes you happy on a random Tuesday night?Well, I think that it's just gone from networks used to program for balance,like a thematic balanceso you would try to kind of have
06:28sitcoms that went well togetheryou would have a hit dramathat could maybe supportthe lead in or the thing that came after itor you know it was a lot oflike dependency on thatit was a lot of dependency on popularityof your mean shows
06:43but I do miss the idea ofI mean even as recentlyas like good Sunday night HBO nightsof like ThronesVeep and girls or somethingYou know what I mean?And there's like a pallet cleanser.There's some light stuff.
06:59There's some drama.There's some action.And so that was really what I was going for was like kind of like, how do I kind of like start at light and fun at eight, get dark at 10 and then lighten it up again at 11?Yeah, I think that makes sense.And honestly, I mean, I was playing around with it.And maybe I will contribute in a week when another one or two shows that I like.When mom comes back on?Comes back on.
07:22But no, I felt weird.Like you had Russian doll in yours, but I finished that.wouldn't want to...Well, yeah, I mean, that's...It's also imagining a world in which those Netflix shows are not free-based, you know?Like, I think that that's, like, another way to look at it.I don't know what it would be like to watch, like, episode four of Ozark and then wait a week.I...
07:41And that's why I think that...And we should move on after this, but I...But just to say that I think I definitely looked at it as a nostalgia exercise and to some degree as a cry for help.Yeah.Because, for example, the first thing that I thought that I would put in that 10-BetPM hour was the deuce.Right.A show that I like so much, that I admire so much, that is becoming a running gag because I have
08:03not finished the season of it.Yes.And I think that if it was part of this night that we designed where it's like, okay, great, TVnight, I would be part of it.And it is on Sunday nights at HBO, but everything has now feels so deeply decoupled fromthat way of looking at it.Well, you mentioned the Russian doll thing.I mean, one of the things you could do is you could watch television this way.
08:19You could just sort of like note when something has come out and gotten a good review.and if you have the discipline or the interest in exercising this kind of muscle,you could go through and just watch things not necessarily once a week,but you could watch like a Brooklyn 9-9 and a Black Monday and a Russian dolland a true detective and then a Patriot Act.But I think that the way that television is being made,and this actually, you know, we can get into Umbrella Academy via this if you want.I do think that the way television is being made is, is, is,
08:53different in terms of like the way storytelling works. I'm kind of curious to knoweven working on Breyer Patch whether or not this kind of stuff is talked about in thewriter's room. Like how much you guys are talking about an episode being watched in a suite ofthree or four episodes that people are catching up on versus we have to make this so significantand interesting that people will wait seven days to come back. Well I, it's a great question.It is something I think about a lot. It was obviously something I was thinking about a lot beforeI was trying to make something. But I feel incredibly.fortunate that I'm on a network that
09:25broadcasts every week because I still careabout that. ButI also feel, you know, knowinglook, this is a highly serializedmurder mystery show. Soit would not be a good look to just dropin on episode four. You have to watchall of it. But that said,
09:41I deeply, deeply believeand have since being a criticthat episodes should beindividualized. They should beso every episode, at leastthe way we're building it,has a significant setpiece, has a distinct emotional tone and feel, and should stand on its own to some degree.Partly because that's how I like to watch things and I like to consider things, I don't like that chapter in a book thing,
10:07but also because I want people to feel super excited that it's that night of the week again,and now we're going to see something different. But that trying to be the same and different is always been the gift and the curse of making TV.weirdly I think thatit's the showsand this is a dwindling number of showsthat I watch with my wifethat stillsort of hue to that more
10:31old-fashioned schedule.And even then it's not a weekly scheduleit's really more like that what AMC doeswith the John La Carre books that we likeadaptations that we like in that... You make it intoa miniseries. We do it as a miniseries. We did a little drummer girlthat way, we did the last top of the lake that way.We're sort of doing that with
10:49brilliant friend, which ended, you know, for most people, two months ago. But, you know, every fewdays maybe we'll dip back in to old-timey Italy. Right. It's interesting, but let's, I thinkyou're right, we should use this as a chance to pivot to what Netflix has going on.Yeah, so. As opposed to True Detective, which I have been watching week to week. You've gotten intoscreeners and you've been watching it in more in bulk. Yeah, well, no, actually, we watch it. We have a very,we keep it pretty Catholic in how we watch True Detective for the,on the flat circle.Unlike the Hoyt family.
11:21We won't have the finale,so I don't know what happens.We're going to be watching the finalealong with everybody else.But we've been watching on Friday.Okay.And then we record on Tuesday.So we get to have like a couple of multiple viewings,
11:35but we don't,you know, we don't have,we don't cheat and go ahead to six.Oh, that's good.And then talk about that and two,because I think part of the joyor like the excitement around the show isgiven what we know,
11:48what do we think is happening here?and then the next week we get a little bit moreand if you went ahead to 7 on 3just to see if you were rightI think it would just change candidlylike the kind of performance you were giving on that showwe felt that way when we did Game of Thrones showNo for sure yeah
12:03Now of many often ways to care of that for usI mean like you can't have any episodesRight but I was even talking about this a little bitwith Jason Gallagher who's one of the producerswho work on the show along with Sean You and a bunch of other peopleWhich is like how different it is to talkabout something that you don't know the answer to versus reviewing something that you do know the answer to.And I think that that is increasingly, you know, a difficult proposition because even for something
12:31like the Umbrella Academy, which not a lot of people are familiar with the source material,at least not as many as maybe like the X-Men or Watchmen or Avengers or Spider-Man or Batman,everybody's kind of well-versed in the story beats for those things.and that's what I'm kind of is kind of so bizarre about the fact that they keep insisting on like restarting Batman.It's like, we got it.We know.Yeah.Did you hear what happened to his parents?
12:58They killed that guy's dad.It sucks.Yeah.So this is a long way of saying that, you know, I can understand some trepidation for people starting another universe, especially one where they're going to have to kind of adjust to a whole new set of rules.At least with the MCU stuff, you're kind of like, well, it's all.all in the same playground.So I get basically what's happening here.So I kind of, I have to say,
13:21I went into Umbrella Academy a little bit dragging my feetbecause I was like another thing where it's like 10 characters show up in a pilotand we have to establish all these rules and all these things.And I finished the pilot being somewhat, you know, pretty charmed by it.You know, it's hard to not like this show.Yeah, I, well, you know, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you.But I would also say that the Umbrella Academy, hopefully, is a hard.harbinger of superhero stuff to come in that it assumes we know the X-Men and we know Spider-Man
13:52and we know the Justice League. And so we understand what this show and what the comic bookthat it's based on was riffing on. You know, it's like you can't, the best possible thingfor the genre would be to finally relax and understand that there are some principles that we allare now versed in and we speak this language. So now you speak the language, now you can startintroducing slang. Now you can start riffing on it.Yeah, right. Now you can stop writing inheavy prose and write in,I don't know, what Gerard would call it, like scat poetry or something.
14:25Why don't you give the bullet point synopsis for anybody who doesn't knowexactly what we're talking about? Because we won't, we only watch the pilot,we won't get too deep into it. Yeah. And I also need to say,going into it, the caveats that Umbrella Academy is produced by UCP,which is the same studio making Breyer Patch. It is created by,it's based on the comic book. It's co-executive produced by,and based on the comic book.written by Gerard Way, who is a very old friend and the singer of My Chemical Romance
14:50and a one-time a guest on this podcast.So take all that salt.We're not in the pocket of big MCR, though.No.We're not in the pocket of big black braid.We actually, we were born in the pocket, like Bain.We were shaped by that pocket.So this was Gerard's first comic book that I think he created it with Gabriel Baugh,
15:13who is a really talented Brazilian artist.and it is very nakedly an homage to something like the X-Men,and something like Doom Patrol, which also debuted this week on the DC Universe,have not watched it.That's also a comic that Gerard went on to write himself.And it's about gifted, talented, misfit childrenwho were raised by an eccentric, rich personand crafted into a super team, you know,
15:40and then this is about them much older,dealing with everything that happened and everything that's about to happen.And I got to say, I mean, look, pilots are hard, but I really appreciated the whimsy.I really appreciated the lightness within this.Now there's violence and there's the threat of the apocalypse and there's all this other stuff.But for me, the central moment of the show and the reason why I encourage people to check it out is the dance sequence set to, I think we're alone now.which, you know, also features a Wes Anderson pullback of an entire mansion cut away like a diorama and nice footage of the CGI talking gym.Right.
16:24But I'm a sucker for dance sequences and I just really appreciated, I really appreciated some acid, some sugar, not to get my semine nose right on here, but some different flavors cutting through the heavy heaviness of what.what we've come to expect from superhero shows on television.Yeah, and also especially how they have to front-load them.You know, one of the things that I saw that, obviously, you know,we've pretty much completed the Marvel Exodus from Netflix,like all of their shows.As of this morning, it's all done.Yeah, Jessica Jones and Punisher have been, quote-unquote, canceled from Netflix,
17:00but essentially are going to be, in all the moving to Disney Plus.Well, weirdly, this morning, the Punisher was officially canceled,but everyone kind of knew that.Jessica Jones was always the most critically acclaimed of these shows.the third season is shot, has yet to air.Netflix's statement was basically like,thanks to everyone for making these showsthat will live on forever on Netflix.
17:19So I don't know.I mean, the characters are not done.Sure.But it could well be that these iterations of the characterswith this cast are done forever.And this kind of goes back to something that Andy and I were talking about,I guess, a week or so ago,about what kind of stuff is going to be on Disney pluse?
17:38We're still doing it.Well, I think we have to commit to the bit at this point.actually gotten tweets from people who are like, I willknow long, I will not be referring to this thing asDisney Plus. It's classier. They're going to,Bob Eiger is going to personally send us apersonal thank you note in French. Does it come witha lot of zeros? No.
17:54That's what he refers to us as. The NetflixMarvel shows were gritty. That wastheir whole kind of, the pitchwas like this takes place ina gritty, violent, you know,people curse, people have sex, people drink,you know, when people get shot, it bleeds.Closer to our reality.
18:10Sure.Yeah. And, you know,Not ours. I'm sorry, let me state that.Maybe more like Kaya and other young people's reality.But the Disney Plus idea...The Disney Plus idea was supposed to be a little bit more family-friendly.I think so. I mean, I think that's more in the Disney brand.I think probably the hardest it would get would be a sort of soft PG-13, I bet.
18:36I think, look, it's just an interest...We'll turn back to Umbrella Academy, but it's just to say that,like let's look at the results.Let's go to the tape.And let's look at the superhero moviesthat have succeeded in the last few years,both critically and commercially,and what they have in common.
18:50And if you pluck out Thor, Ragnarok,Spider-Man movie,Wonder Woman, Deadpool, and Aquaman,there is a willingness,and obviously to different degreesbetween those projects,to embrace the core absurdityof the project.
19:11Right.To comment, either to comment on it, you know, in sort of a meta-explicit way, like Deadpool,or to run right towards the fact that this is a movie about a talking fish man,which I haven't seen.But from what I gather, when I heard that Julie Andrews was voicing an eternal, like, ocean beast.Maybe whether it meant to be funny, whether it was intended to be funny or not.Yeah, I've certainly...That movie was embraced.
19:35And Wonder Woman embraced the kitsy optimism of it, which, which,Captain America, the First Avenger, did as well as a period piece, and I really appreciate that.And so, despite that there's some residual conservative knee-jerk thinking here that what people,the only way to make America buy comic book properties is if they are grim and gritty,that's just not the case anymore.This is a generation who's grown up on this stuff and understands that a comic book storycan be high or low or light or dark, like any story.Yes.
20:03And so I'm pretty into the surrealism of the Umbrella Academy, if anything,I feel like it could go furtherand maybe it willover the course of the seasonearlier reviews are kind of mixedwhich surprised mejust from the strength of the pilotbut maybe this is also
20:18they had to take a half stepbefore they could runand Gerard's instinctsare super out thereand Steve Blackmanwho's a really talentedwriter and showrunnerwho took over it
20:28maybe wasyou know baby steppingbecause look and then I'm sayinghe's baby steppingand did I mention the talking monkey?Yeah pretty good special effectson that talking monkeyReally good monkey, guys. Nice work.
20:42Do you have origin fatigue? Are you at all fatigued by starting these genre universes?Well, sorry, so I keep avoiding your central question, which is about that. I think this skillfully avoided it.I think the origin is the five minute, if that prologue.Right.And then the nice thing about this story is that it immediately jumps past everything and deals with the aftermath.Now, it can backfill story.Obviously, there are flashback scenes in the pilot.But even that one conceit that the one kid has been lost in time and comes back still as a kid,
21:19sort of helps get us past a lot of that early stuff.You know, I think it's baked in to the conceit.But beyond that, I do think the show, and there must have been a lot of conversation about this in their writer's room,the show was aware, the people making the show were aware of the universe.they were putting the show into.And they don't spend a lot of time explaining a lot.Like how people have superpowers, what it looks like, what it would mean, the gift and the curseof having them.
21:47We get it.We see it.We see it from the different ways that they dance, you know, which I think is a muchmore artful way to explain it than long, long shots of people in cowls walking downhallways.I think what it is is that I'm still adjusting, or I think it's always an adjustment to getyour head around the idea ofcomic culture being the dominant mainstream culture.
22:08We are having a hard time with it.I don't know if other people are, but I agree with you.Because I think that it kind of changes a little bit of whatcomics meant to people our age,which was this sort of like side doorand this escape and a way in which to view yourselfand view the world through like,hey, like
22:25this world that you think is in your imaginationcould actually reflects way more the real world than you think.And that was sort of always, I think, especially thePromise of X-Men, right?It's like the alienation of the mutants was really the alienation of anyone.Yep, and that you could view your story through that.Now, I also, personally, I think that there's something about the never-ending story elementof comics and the constantly pushing forward and pushing in through these other side stories
22:53and weaving things together.And yeah, of course there's time jumps and crossovers and everything else.I think that that is being lost by this, like, by the machine of what's happening out inHollywood where it's likeit's just more effectivefor them to like reboot Batmanevery five years or six yearsthan it is for them to be like
23:12we're just going to stick with this andhope that Christian Bale keeps making themor we're going to we can't get likewe can't do 10 Batman moviesin a series right so we'vegot to constantly keep recycling itwhat I would say is try to thinkis to try to put a music analogy onto it
23:28and with comic book as dominant culturewe are notlet's comparethis might betelling on myselfa little bitwith this analogybut if you compare
23:37like rock and rollas a culturalforcewith comic booksas our dominantculturallanguagewe are not
23:45that far into this erawe are maybein the beginningof the 70s or somethingright in terms ofwhere rock and roll waswe haven't evengotten to Zeppelin
23:53yetwhat I'm saying isthere is a paradigmof what rock isand should bewhat it sounds likeand if you keepplaying in that style
23:59you're going to havea certainbaseline level of success.But we are at the point where maybe there's a Velvet Undergroundthat people have been listening to.And there's a couple things on the side.And slowly, the people influenced by those people on the sidemight start to claw their way into the mainstream a little bit
24:13and get some shine.I still think there is a lot of creative possibility here.And the people that I'm looking to is a different tree of creators.Grant Morrison is a brilliant comic book writerwhom I adore, who's really Gerard Way's biggest influence,and they've become friends and collaborators as well.well, but a more surrealist, meta, celebratory, weird approach to the material, you know, where, the thing I, to use the music analogy, keep trying to find a way into this music analogy to have it makes sense.There is an assumption, for example, that people who like comic books are like, let's say like goths. It's all dark. It's all weeping crime.
25:01But what people who don't listen to The Cure might not remember is that The Cure also made Friday I'm in love.They made an album called Wild Mood Swings.They were in on the joke even while they were actually very sad on records like disintegration and pornography or whatever.And putting on the makeup, putting on the wigs, putting on the costumes, and then playing is a central part of being a fan of certain kinds of music.But it's also a central part of certain kind of comic book fandom.and that's the comic book fandomthat I'm excited to see celebratedin something like the Umbrella Academy.
25:34The show might not be perfectand it might not be a worthwhilelong-term vessel for this type of storytellingbut there's a spark thereand I found thatand I found that pretty exciting.I liked the shorthand of it.I liked how much we got through
25:48in that first hour.I thought it was really brilliantly directedby Peter Horr.I thought it definitely like came out of theit came out of the gateknowing exactly what it was,knowing the tone.It's so stylish.
25:59kind of like dialed into one another,all this stuff that's really hard to get early on.And like,I think in a weird way I have like a,a ton of appreciation for how hard it must beto like launch something and you've got 10 charactersand all these different storylinesand all these different cross relationships.
26:16It's much, in a way, like my brain is sort oflike driving away from that a little bit.Like I find myself like just way moreattracted to something like stand-off at Sparrow Creek where it's like this contained story.No, I mean, I think that I'm a little bit more like when I watch television sometimes,I'm like, do we have this many characters, main characters, because you want to have somethingin season three of Grey's Anatomy where like the fifth doctor can carry an episode so that
26:46Ellen Pompeo doesn't have to do it.And it's like those sort of like almost market forces start to like get into my mind about likewhat are the creative choices being made to here?Like is it necessary that I have like an emotional relationship with something?seven people when I really just want to do it with two or three.It is, it remains the, maybe the biggest issue affecting our understanding, our appreciation,or our enjoyment of TV.And in some ways, the least talked about, even though we constantly are circling around it.
27:16TV was always, always, always, TV storytelling was always about the journey.It was never about the beginning or the destination.That wasn't it.It was about Grazenat.No, and the funnily enough to show that changed that, arguably, is long as long as well.lost, and the whole point of loss was the, like, Lost's joys were in those mid-season's like,what the fuck is going to happen here?Yeah.
27:38Yeah. That's always what it was.And then we, you know, but we have shows like, you know, I mentioned last week, like Russian Doll,which I don't, I can't think of it like a TV show because I didn't appreciate it or get ituntil I saw the entirety of it.And my brain was not prepared for that.And this show, we're putting, you know, we're talking about the pilot.Many people have probably already finished the season of Umbrella Academy and have different opinions about it because of it.But we are definitely putting a lot into that first, the beginning of the journey.
28:07It's funny to have this conversation while talking about Jessica Jones or The Punisher, which because their comic book characters could have gone forever.But all of a sudden, because of this corporate breakup, everyone is like, oh, wait, wait, that was it.That was the story.And people seemed dissatisfied maybe because it wasn't built to be contained like that.or they weren't prepared.They thought this was a longer ridethan it was going to be.All I can say with my old-fashioned brain
28:33is that Umbrell Academyput me in a worldthat I was happy to be in.And maybe this is the best seguebecause you know,I'm just looking to you right now,you know I have had my issueswith True Detective.
28:47Readers of Granite certainly know as well.But look, and I've had my issueswith this season that we could talk about.But I am enjoyingwatching the show every week,so we can talk about it, so I can have a reaction to it.And so I can see what's happening.I mean, there's something that is clicking.
29:05Yeah, there's something about it that's drawing you back.With my lizard brain.Yeah.And we can talk about whether it's the specific content of the show,or we've only, guess what,maybe we've only been having one conversation this whole time,and it's about how we watch TV.Yeah, where do you want to hang out?
29:19All right, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsorand we'll come back and talk about the penultimate episodeof Trudeo Tech in Season 3.Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Roman with two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeablehair loss by age 35.Most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they age.Some don't care.Some shave their head.
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30:33Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Hulu live.Hulu's paying some of the league's best players,a lot of money to do some pretty crazy stuff.Jowell changed his nickname from the process to Joel.Hulu has live sports and bead.Damian Lillard got a tattoo that says Hulu has live sports.Clearly, they really want you to know that Hulu has live sports.Hulu Plus Live TV offers 60 plus live and on-demand channels,
30:57tons of shows and movies, and exclusive originals.So get rid of cable and switch to Hulu Plus Live TV for only $45 a month.Watch your favorite teams and the biggest games all season with no cable required.Watch on the go and on all your favorite devices.Restrictions apply. Learn more at Hulu.com.All right, brother, we're back.It's something talking about True Detective.Now, I talk about this show a lot.
31:23Obviously, we do the Flat Circle over here.That's our True Detective After Show.find that on YouTube at the ringer's account.It's actually been quite a fulfilling experience, just in general.Doing a weekly show with someone who's there every week with you?No, actually, it's just been, I think it's just been a really exciting way to watch this show.I wonder what it would be like to go and just watch it as a viewer and whether, and I do thinkthat there was a bit of a lull in around three, four, and five in the post-Solnier episodes.
31:53That then they corrected course pretty hardcore.Now, I've enjoyed every episode for various reasons, but part of it is that literally, I would say, now, they may not all matter, but I think every single shot and every single gesture and every single thing that you've seen in True Detective this season winds up being part of a puzzle.And we've actually, like, figure that out.Like, if you, you can find like little gestures that Margaret, the doll lady does, you know, early in the season that seem like throw away is like, why is this woman just?is always next to Lucy.And it's like, oh, okay, so she's important, you know,as you get closer and closer towards the end.But in the end, I think that,
32:38I think that this show is actually quite, you know,for as much as we've said, oh, it's a return to form for season one,and even is bringing in the crimes of season one.Yeah, that was crazy.It's a different kind of show.It's a different kind of show.It's a lot more claustrophobic,and it's a lot more introverted.
32:51I think it's largely taking place inside one detective's mind,which is not a reliable narrator.And I think as the show is getting closer to the endand they've started expanding it a little bitand going into different rooms, pink or otherwise,it's gotten a lot more exciting.I think that the problem with that middle part of the season isit was just a little constricted by this guy's perspective.
33:15Yes, and also because of the canvasthat Nick Pizzolato chose for himself,some portions of it aren't as fulfilling.And I mean I'm trying to be very politic when I say that.There are aspects, obviously there are sections of the show, characters that I feel are ill-served or not up to par.But that's also the nature of doing something this ambitious across timelines where you're going to have to service all of them.And certain things just aren't, they don't, they're not, it's not all equal, I would say.And I would say that's partly because I think I get the feeling that they are not all as interesting to the creator.
33:52Sure.but I appreciate what you're saying about theyou could say that it's claustrophobicand we're in one character's mind which is truebut I also appreciate in some waysthe scope of the seasonat the beginning I said I don't know if this case is wortheight episodes it doesn't seem as compelling
34:09and I think on some level I might be rightthe sort of default to well there's just a faceless conspiracyat the root of this that maybe at the endwe'll ricochet back to being a personal storythat's a well-trod pathand I find that less compellingthan had it just been, you know, tightly zeroed in on the family, for example.But I kind of, as this has gone on, I kind of appreciate, it's not mundane,
34:34but I kind of appreciate that something that seems so small could unravel multiple lives.Yeah.In terms of obsession, in terms of itches that you can't scratch.For me, as we get close to the end, the thing that I find most,satisfying. And again, this might be the most basic thing about me, but I really appreciate that in thepresent day timeline, or the most, the 2015 timeline, that these two old bastardscare about each other. Yeah, I know. You know, it's, this, again, this might be a littleon the nose on a podcast recorded by two old bastards. But one of the things that I always love about
35:21crime fiction and the novels that inspired both of us and clearly inspired Nick Pizzolado and many people who work on the show.It's not just the feeling that, you know, the sensation and the emotion of being in a dark and corrupt world.It's not just the crazy set pieces, which are also super thrilling and fun to read on the page and sometimes I'd see on the screen as well.But at the heart of it, often the humanity is expressed through camaraderie.Not always between male partners.It could be between any main characters in one of these books, but there is this core of something that is valuable.and something that is worth fighting for.And the first season of True Detective,
35:56despite all the attention on those leads,I don't think was really about that.The friendship.They didn't really have one.And as someone who still falls for stuff like Grey's Anatomythat has sort of basic lizard TV DNA built in,I need to like something.I need to believe in something.
36:12I need to see that the world that is so dark and miserableon the edges has something worth fighting for,or else my compass is askew.And I really have appreciated.that this friendship, strange as it is, unlikely as it is,has emerged as something that matters to the show.And that has helped me steer through even the bumpy patches.Yeah, I mean, I think that the three timelines and now four.
36:37Yeah, that was a weird move to have a fourth time line.Well, I think it'll come in.I mean, with no four knowledge, I think it's going to have some huge impact.The 2005 is what we're kind of guessing it is.We'll wind up having a big impact on the show.you're right.Doing three timelines is a very complicatedand at times overly elaborate, I think,
36:57conceit.There are things that I kind of wonderwhether or not it would have just been betterto tell it chronologically.I wonder whether it would have been betterto kind of condense it.Sometimes I think relatively simple storytellingis convoluted because,
37:11is this guy able to walk in on his past?Is this what's the ghost doors opening?I like that.But you're right.I think ultimately what the showis done that's kind of not talked about very muchis shown the way friendship changes over time.And a lot of stuff can be excused because you were young
37:27and a lot of stuff can be excused because you were old.But at any point in your life, you're young or you're old.You know what I mean?It's a better of perception.And the affection that those two guys weirdly have for each otherbecause of what they've gone throughreally comes through.It really does.
37:43And I think I really love that about it.You know, this second or last episode of True Detective this season was named the Final Country,which is, I'm sure, a nod to James Crumley's novel, The Final Country.It's a hell of a book about one of his aging detectives, particularly aging,but still having enough gas in his tank to run wild all over Texas and drink a lot and do drugsand get into a lot of trouble, only to discover that the trouble that he was at home all long.Yeah, right.So I wonder whether, you know, it's interesting, it'll be interesting to see you how the season,
38:17the last episodemaybe is also abouttrouble at home. A lot of people are speculating aboutwhat Amelia has to dowith all of this. Yeah.Well, Amelia, but alsoI'm sorry, who has the soul of a horror?Lucy Persol. That's right. That's right.
38:33It's hard to remember.Put a face to a name. She's no longer with us on this show.But I feel like she has morethere's more gas in her story tank, so to speak.The other thing is that after seven episodes,there's enough strength here for me thatI can stop, and I know people get sick of when I do this, and I get sick of it myself to a degree,but wishing for something different at times, you know, and maybe that's the frustrated, like,
38:57attempting to be a creator part of me, but I wish we knew, weirdly, we spent almost every framewith Wayne Hayes, and sometimes I wish we knew him better. Sometimes I wish that we could get pastthe sort of macho bluster. He is our main character, and yet because of the looser, more rubberyflexibility of a supporting character to bounce off of him.I feel like Roland is better drawn at this point in terms of the distinct personality.Well, he's doing a lot more showing rather than telling.Roland.Yes, he is, right, because we jumped away, we were away from him and we saw how he's living
39:32and we understand that a little bit better.But even in the actions that he's, you know, whether it's taking care of Tom ortaking care of the dogs, like I think you're seeing, they fashion a character that'ssort of like, and he doesn't have to do as much as Wayne, you know, and his mind isn'tfalling apart the way Wayne's is.he gets every gesture he makes is sort of towards his characterwhereas for Wayne I think he has to do a lot of talkingand they put him in a lot of situations with Amelia specifically
39:57where he does a lot of talking about who he isand he doesn't get as much showingthere's actually only beentwo really like not eventhere's only been like two set pieces this yearwhich is uncommon for true detective I thinkand I don't necessarily know if the show's been helped or hurt bythat, I think that the first season especially had a couple of, it had like about four or five.
40:22You mean like action set pieces?Yeah, or at least just like movement.Like we're running to this thing.We have to get here.We have to do this.You know, like this feels a lot more like ambient driving around that leads to anotherconversation to another conversation and then like a fight or a revelation at the end.And that's, it's interesting to me.
40:39But I think that there was a little bit more dynamism to the first season where they werebuilding up to and coming down from like some explosive moments that made you feel like,yes, this is why you would be engaged with this for so long, because it was defining thing inyour life.Yeah, and I think that that was more, look, I think that the, the, the shiniest gloss on thatwould be that Pizzolato is essentially a novelist or a short story writer.And this is in some ways a more literary way of dealing with action and reaction inone's life. It's increasingly
41:12less cinematic as a show despite theambition of the three timelines,I think. It really is, especiallyonce Sonia departed this season, and the direction'sbeen fine, for the most part, I think, evenbetter than fine in last night's episode by DanielSackheim. But we're just sort of...I thought the pink room reveal from the previous
41:28week was among the best things the shows ever done.But we're sort of just sort ofcircling the conversations, you know,inside of one person's mind, which is verydifferent than just the fullcolor palette thing.a deli at times of the first season, right, in terms of what Carrie Fuganaga was bringing to it.I really love, I love Stephen Dorf's performance.
41:48It's just really good.I mean, and Mahershala's performance is also, I mean, it's really, the degree of difficultiesoutrageous.I wouldn't be able to accurately figure this out.It would be really hard, but one of the things I would say is that, you know, this seasonwas, started out, I think Soleno was supposed to direct three.It wound up only directing two, and, you know, Dan Sackheim gave an in,interview with Indie Wire, and he said, you know, he thinks that Sonny did this incredible job,
42:13but most of his job or a lot of his job is getting the production back on schedule becausethey were falling behind. And I think that you can feel, especially in those middle episodes,but even up to the last couple, it feels like they did less exteriors. It feels like they didless like walking around Fayetteville, which is what I think I were walking around that area.You're totally right about that. And that, you know, in the first episode, you get Tom's house,you get Wayne's house.But you also get the bike ride.You get the bike ride.
42:43You get the kids driving around.You get a sense of this entire sort of town kind of interacting and these different like loops together.And then as season went on, it just feels more and more on rooms that look a little bit like sets.It's a really good call that I don't even think I appreciate it, but that's definitely influenced how I've been watching.Yeah.I lost track of who knew who and how.And maybe the most damning example of that is when Tom,body is revealed, I had forgotten the significance of the place.
43:13The tower.We should know that.That should be baked into our consciousness and the way it would be baked into Wayne's consciousness, despite the memory loss.And I think that because we've been so inside and internal, because of maybe very likely because of budgetary reasons.Well, they could have just been like, we got to get through these pages and if it means not doing them out in a field and dealing with sunlight and doing them inside of an office or inside of a car that is back,With its background, like, I get that, but I think that that is part of why you might, like, look at your phone a couple of times during this, during the show, because you feel as though in season one, and to some extent in season two, you're just like really out there in the world, seeing new places.And in this, it's like, okay, we've established that a lot of the action is actually interior action.It's actually stuff that's happening in people's minds, and it's stuff that people are talking about.
44:05It's hard to remember for me watching it that Wayne still lives in the same place.Right.That the streets he might be walking down.The fact that he walks from his home to the kids, the Purcell house in, I don't remember, that's the end of two or something where he...Shoe Pickway, yeah.That connection, how easy it is to still be in the past when you are still living there.That's missing, and I think that's kind of a necessary thing.But also, you know, it's just this is the season.
44:34And for me, this is the seasonthat True Detective became a TV show.It ceased to be an event.It ceased to be, you know,in the words of some,the thoughts of some,a colossal,hubristic misfire,
44:47as people claim season two was,it's a TV show now,I think,with a certain established point of view,interests, language,and part of it,if you're willing to go on this journey,is to accept that you can have
45:02a performance like Ray Fisher'sas Wayne Hayes' son,which I think is really good,really strong in the margins,and then Sarah Gaydon as the documentarian,which is just mind-boggling to me,the character and performance.It's so bizarre and takes me out every single time.
45:19But if this is the world,and the last thing we should talk about,is that this seems to be now,not just the templatefor the show going forward in some ways,but we are now in a shared universe,which was the big reveal.So I have a suggestion for all of this.
45:31So should we, for people,I mean, this,it was established.Eliza, the character that Sargaden plays,who works for true criminal,is like this investigative reporting television showor documentarian,shows Wayne a website,
45:46a newspaper website where they have an articleabout Rust and Martyand their investigation from season one,which means...Was it one of my recaps?It's from Gratlin.Yeah.And it just means that this time,
45:58like this season of the showis taking place in the same quote-unquote worldis the first,She's on the show and she's making connections between what happened in Louisiana,what's happening in Arkansas,and suggesting other things that have happened in Nebraska.I have a suggestion for the future of True Detective here.So I think part of the problem with season two, among many,
46:16was that they were like, get something going.Like, let's strike while the iron's hot.Oh, for sure.Everyone has said that.You know, there was that.There was also the, they went away from having, you know,the sort of singular vision of Fukenaga to using Justin Lynnand then using a couple of directors during season two.
46:33And that's sort of happened again with season threewhere they had Solnier, but then they had to move on.Recently, they've talked about Casey Bloisand the higher ups that HBO have talked aboutthe need to do an uptick and the amount of stuffthey're putting out in programming.So here's what I think true detective should do.I think that odd-numbered seasons
46:50should be this story.Okay.It should be this like James L. Roy kind of likedecades spanning conspiracy.About pedophile rings.in the south and the Midwest and you know out and wherever and there should be kind of like aan end point but it's like that it's these collection of cases that are taking place that are allsomehow related so that's the odd number seasons and piz should write those and and they can get
47:18whoever to direct them and that's how they should do that and then the even numbered seasonsshould just be standalone true detective colon in mexico city or true detective colonWashington, D.C.And you allow, like, a crime writer from that areato write a one-season, like,night-of-style case.I love that idea.I think...
47:41And that way you get more seasons, but you kind of are, like,it's, like, basically True Detective mothership,and then, like, you basically, like, subcontract out.Do you have a cool cop show that can fit into the aesthetic of True Detective?Here's why that will never happen.Sure.I love that idea.Yeah, and I think that would be terrific.
48:00But in a previous era of television, well, none of this would have happened at all.Right.But in a previous era of television, it was much more top-down,and the true detective would be the HBO franchise to do these things with.But we are definitely in an era of creator and Autour Empowerment.And it's not just in Nick Pizzolado's interest and his agent's interestto preserve this as his domain.Yes.
48:25But it actually is ultimately because of this is the world.We're in HBO's interest, too,to be seen as the creative-friendly placewhere you can create a franchiseand you have stewardship over the franchise for good or ill.For as much as people may look at the misfire of season twoand wonder what's anybody thinking here.I think a lot of people in the creative community
48:44will look at it and say HBO believes in its creatorsand empowers them and allows them to reboundand learn from their own mistakes.Which in a world where people like Ryan Murphy and Chonda Rhymesand even my boss and our friend, Sam SML,are reaping these mega deals.Creators, at a certain level,who can produce these shows,
49:02are going to get paid and rewarded.And so, even though it may not seem likeit in any short-term creative interestor even the ratings interest,it is probably in these corporations' interestto keep their productive creators happy.Sure.Not necessarily the...
49:16I guess...My thought is that if it takes essentiallythree to four years for themto come up with and executea true detective season,you could sort of subcontract out the interval.And you could still be pretty awesome, you know?Oh, I mean, that's the unspoken thing in all this too,
49:38which is that despite my issues with the seasonand often with the show and its tenor and point of view,I love, I love crime shows, I love mysteries.You love Ray Valcoro.Look.We didn't talk about, speaking of Ray Valcora,We didn't talk about the one other piece of news that you brought to me yesterday as potential podcast fodder.We don't do a lot of celebs spotting on the show.
50:02We like to let the celebrities of Los Angeles feel like they're not being watched.By us.By us.And then to.But I saw him on one of the great websites, justjared.com, that Colin Farrell was out and about getting coffee in Los Felis.In your neighborhood.I mean, he also, he looked like a god.He looked like the dawn of all dons.
50:22He was just where, I mean, like, he looks like Colin Farrell, but like, it was, it was pretty, pretty emotional for me.Get you a career like Colin Farrell. Obviously, we love him.You guys in Dumbo?Look, he's in Dumbo. He's in Crimes of Grindenberg or whatever.I forget which Ashkenazi Jewish name was involved in this wizard conspiracy.But he was also in True Detective Season 2.Andy was in, I mean, he's just, it's just a remarkable career.and it just seems to be working for him,
50:54as was the half swashbuckler, half-athleisure look he was rocking.Yeah.I really, we joke about him,and we joke about some of the movies he's been in.Obviously, we're big fans.But the fact that he can just move between these things,I just like, look, I like that he could have given us a performance like Ray Val Coroin a show that was, I don't know why I'm trying to protect it,
51:16like, reviled by many.But it was just another interesting notch.in his career.And now he's taken downsome of the east sideof Los Angelesgreat coffee stops.Great, great, great.
51:29I mean, you know,one thing about that stretchon Hillhurst that's possibleis you can check in at all timeand have just incredible pastry,maybe a sandwich to go,a nice coffee,and then you could just take a quick walk north
51:43and you could just re-up.You can just re-up at Blue Bottle.You know what I mean?Like if you just need one more power surgeto get you through the rest of your day,like a double dragon character.I've seen.I once had coffee with someone at all time.
51:58You then saw a blue bottle?No, we did a bang bang.You can't do that, Doug.We did a coffee bang bang, bang.I can't, I took CPR when I was 14.I don't know if I can revive you.I'm going to put,I'm going to put this person on blast
52:09because he listens to the podcast.Okay.This is gentleman,actor, raconteur,and handkerchief designer,Colin Hanks.No shit.Colin Hanks.
52:18And you guys went,you guys went double up.We bang,bangs. But here's the thing. You know me. You see me in all sorts of cardiac distress.Yeah. You're not a well man. No. And usually like it's, you know, deeply emotionally based.I had a lovely cappuccino at all time. And he suggested a bang bang and the conversation wasflowing. No shit. It was great. Because you guys were fucking high.Listen. I went to Blue Bottle and Colin, delightful man, ordered a second coffee.
52:45Uh-huh. No visible change in demeanor. I waited until he was, I think he ran intosomeone. And I was like, please give me sugar water in a cup, like, except no sugar.I need Gatorade and Quiludes right now. I was like, how quickly can you make me the Wolf of WallStreet, but in the quiet scenes? Like, how quickly can you have me be Leo trying to get into alimousine in 1987? And they were like, we can do that for you. And I put it in an opaque vessel.Get you a cafe that can do both. And it was lovely. And in no way did I look one 70,eighth as swab as ColinFarrell, who, as far as we know, is only on stage
53:25bang of the bang bang, bang.I think we both know that he's like on bang, bang, bang.Except,I think he could probably,that's the guy who could probably have a couple cups of coffee.See, this is the thing is that there are people here at the ring or two,younger people generally,who like get like the venty red eyes, you know,
53:45and like are just crushing them and then they're like back for more.And I'm just like, your boy needs teaafternoon because if he drinks a coffeeI'm like up doing the crossword puzzle at three in the morninglistening to X. You're describing a young personhaving a red eye makes me feel like roller girlin the second reel of boogie nights.I'm sweating. Are you my mom?
54:10Thinking about it. I don't get you people of Americawho can drink multiple coffees. I've had a coffee during this podcast.Look.Kyah, how many coffees a day for you?Just one. There you go.Look how much up.How much of this I've had?Perfect, man.
54:23Just one.I can't even finish this.Yeah.Your eyes are bleeding.I feel crazy.Let's wrap it up there.I can stay here all day,but I want to let you go.
54:33It's a pleasure to be in this dude.I got to go,I got to go write a script.I got to go write a couple scripts.No wonder you're procrastinating.Yeah, that's why I'm here.We will be back on Thursday.Thank you so much for listening to The Watch.
54:44And just as a heads up,the flat circle will be going up live.I know it's Oscar night.But that doesn't stop us.Live after the True Detective finaleon Sunday. You can find us on Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, and we'll be breaking down whateverhappens in episode 8 of True Detective. Until then, I'm Chris Ryan. Stick with DeKaff Pranski's.
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