The Watch - The ‘Euphoria’ Season Finale and How ‘Orange Is the New Black’ Helped Establish Netflix | The Watch

Episode Date: August 6, 2019

The first season of HBO’s ‘Euphoria’ sometimes prioritized style over character development (3:23), but in the end we still felt attached to the relationship between Rue and Jules (8:50). The final season of ‘Orange Is the New Black’ could mark the end of an era at Netflix (20:07). Plus, previewing ‘GLOW’ Season 3 (35:15). Host: Alison Herman Guests: Micah Peters and Caroline Framke Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tool's entire music catalog is now available for streaming and downloads for the first time ever. Fans can listen to all five albums now on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, iTunes, YouTube music, Pandora, and more. Tool also announced their brand new album, Fear Inoculum, which will be available on August 30th. Start listening to Tool's entire music catalog today, and don't miss their new album Fear Anoculum, available August 30th. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello! welcome to the watch. As you may have noticed by now, I am not Chris Ryan. Chris Ryan is in a

compound in New Mexico somewhere, eating Ortolan and otherwise preparing for the upcoming season of succession. I'm Allison Herman. I'm a staff writer for The Ringer. I cover TV. I have sometimes been on the show to talk about TV. And I am joined today by a very special guest to talk about the final episode of the first season of Euphoria. It's Micah Peters. Very special. Wow. I feel so, so valued in this discussion. I've been a very special. I'm very excited to talk about the euphoria season finale because we're about teen feelings. Teen feelings. We want to make everyone feel valued.

Like this is a safe space. Yes, we're talking about the drama of the human spirit and the small ways in which people self-destruct. Yeah, so in the second half of this episode, I'm going to be talking with Variety TV critic Caroline Framke about the final season of Orange is the New Black and maybe the upcoming season of Glow a little bit. And the final season of Orange is the New Black is literally about people in prison and I, detention facilities and otherwise like the grimmest places known to human existence. And somehow the characters on Euphoria are way sadder. Yeah, I know you've been on the show previously to talk about your sort of first take on Euphoria back when it premiered in June.

Just to get everyone back up to speed, what were your sort of first impressions of the show? My first impressions of the show were that it was, you know, coming very strong out of the gate with the initial voiceover Rue was talking about. First thing, you know, my first memory is my parents watching the news feed on loop after 9-11,

and then nothing literally ever got better. And like, you know, it's extremely affecting. It's meant to be shocking to kind of like hold you to your seat a little bit. But after the first couple of episodes, as you had in your season finale recap, it kind of had to settle into

who these characters are and not just how they fit into a landscape. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Thank you for the plug. I appreciate it. You're quite welcome. It's very good. It's still on theringer.com. Great website. Thank you. And just, I don't know if you've heard this, but apparently creator Sam Levinson, who also is credited with writing every episode and directed most of them, his initial plan for the first shot of Euphoria was going to be a camera shot that went, like, into the hospital room where Rue's mother was giving birth and then went, like, up her birth canal. So that's,

was the one thing that the bosses at HBO were like, please don't do that as your introduction to the show. Yeah, please fucking relax if you can. Which he sort of did. Yeah, he did. He did. And again, there are things that I found that

I kept returning to the show week after week for were mainly ruin Jules' relationship. Zendaya and Hunter Schaefer's chemistry just, you know, jumps off the page. I was just like, I want to keep them safe from everything. it kind of provided a, you know, viable emotional heart to the show. And also it kind of deepened the characters around.

Like, nobody really seemed 100% evil or 100% good, except for fucking Nate Jacobs, all right? You know, fuck Nate Jacobs. Yeah, we can talk about Nate's sort of awkward role in the show. But I do want to go back to something you said earlier, which is just as the season went on, it felt like it almost had to settle into these characters and start to just take them seriously as people.

and flesh out the ensemble. I do think, like, something that can be encouraged, both in pilot episodes where you need to just sell people as quickly as possible on a show or in movies, like Sam Levinson made this thriller assassination nation that I think had a lot of the same flaws as euphoria, but not necessarily all of its strengths. Like, the more brevity you have,

the more characters can just be sort of symbols. And the long... TV is just big enough that you need to fill it with something. Well, also, the thing is that it is a very, it's highly stylized, which it means that like, you know, occasionally at the expense of character development. So the way that, and I guess maybe that juxtaposition is kind of illustrated in the fact that you don't know where these people are, it's just like some suburb, you can tell that it's shot in and around Los Angeles, but it's made to feel like the walkways, like alleyways, hallways, school steps,

are meant to feel gigantic in frame, and you would think that that would mean that you have to deepen your relationship with each of these characters. And eventually it sort of does, but, like, again, like you were saying, occasionally it pulls back, and it's not as rewarding as you would like it to be.

Yeah, I mean, something I focused on in my review of the season finale was consistently I would find myself really looking forward to that first five minutes of every show, where it doesn't really try to do anything fancy, all it does is Rue's voiceovers and Dea's

voiceover just guides you through the inner lives and perspectives of a single member of the ensemble. Yeah. And, you know, in Nate's case, it doesn't quite humanize him, but like, I thought in the case of Maddie Nate's girlfriend, that was really useful in just making her seem like a person

with wants and desires. Yeah, rather than just like a caricature with eye glitter and pigtails. Yeah. Yeah, who wears like a stripper outfit to the carnival? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Or I thought Kat's voiceover was really good where you have the flashback to her boyfriend or her, like, cute elementary slash middle school boyfriend dumping her because she gained a lot of weight.

Like, I just really liked these five-minute vignettes that didn't try to do anything too fancy except just like tell you who these kids were. And that set you up really well to go into these, like, ridiculous stories. Right. And to understand why they have the interactions with people that they do. Yeah. I mean, we were just sitting in our office. earlier when an editor came in and was trying to fact-check a story and asked us a question

about Nate's character. And then I just described the blackmail plot with no content. Exactly. Exactly. And it was like, yeah, he got someone out. He like blackmailed someone into, you know, getting himself convicted for assault by, you know, using someone else's nudes to threaten them with child pornography charges. Yeah, it's like a normal high school show.

Normal high school shit. It's like he is honestly like Ernst Blofeld like in high school. But also a Calvin Klein model. And also, annoyingly, like, don't fucking make him sneaky athletic, too. Like, the whole, like, it's just... Yeah, this was not something I am in any way equipped to comment on, but members of the Ringer staff had opinions about the football game and the finale. Yeah, I mean, like, it's just that he's, you know, hidden his receivers in their numbers

and their hands all game, they're dropping everything. And then, like, you know, somehow the game is tied. And he just scrambles for a touch, like a 40s. 37-yard touchdown in which the defense just, it's not like the defense on the other team is like bad. It's just ceases to exist. I'm nodding. Those are all words that I think I understand individually. But I'm sure the listeners appreciate your insight.

He doesn't have feet like that. He doesn't have feet like that. Although one thing I do want to talk about with Nate is I think he's kind of an interesting contrast with ruin jewels, where I think, you know, euphoria's claims to being a new or different kind of teen show are mostly like, we're in HBO so we can show them having sex. Right. And I do think, like, ruin jewels are there, this shows one major claim to this is something I don't really see on other teen shows.

It doesn't really announce itself as being, like, edgy or transgressive in the way that a lot of the scenes about, like, drug use. It just feels tender and safe often. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's almost like you don't even realize when you're watching it and then you think about it. And you're like, I'm watching like a very straightforwardly, but like, also complicated, queer. romance that's like interracial and one of them is trans and like they just don't talk about that. That doesn't call attention to it. Yeah. Yeah. And it just feels so organic and like specific to these two people and these two actresses who are just amazing. Amazing together. Like it was honestly remarkable. And also it's just like Hunter Schaefer's behind the scenes. She was just talking about it was important for us to introduce the Jules character like far enough along in her.

own journey to make that relationship feel as organic as it does. Yeah, and it's not, the plot line isn't really about Jules Transness. Exactly. She's already transitioned. She's already living her life. And then I just thought it was very weird that like the same show where that can be taken for granted both by the show itself and seemingly like in the world of the show, like there aren't a lot of like explicitly like transphobic or homophobic police.

And then Nate just feels like this callback to the most basic like glee, whatever. Yeah. He's just, he's very, yeah, he's a very by the numbers villain. Although, like, the scene where he's freaking out in his

bedroom after his, like. After his dad, like, pins him to the bed? Yeah, I was like, sit, like, it was, I was washing it with two other people, and we were just kind of, like, looking at each other, like, mouths agape.

I feel like they make him, they make him feel as scary as that level of, like, unchecked toxic masculinity is to a lot of people. Yeah. I just thought it just felt very lazy to make him, you know, a closeted jock who, you know, can't come to terms of his own sexuality and take it out on other people.

Yeah, when you have so many stories that you feel like you're seeing for the first time to have one that you've seen millions of times before is kind of a letdown. Right. And the fact that it's literally both, it becomes widely known in the school that he had dickpicks on his phone and people just kind of laugh about it, but it's not a huge deal. and when his girlfriend brings it up, Maddie, she's just like, yeah, like, I don't care. She's just like sexualized as a spectrum, and he's just like, stop talking. Like, and it's just, you know, yeah.

It weirdly felt less nuanced than how the show treats Nate's dad. Like, I thought that scene. Right. Like, you mean like the, like, are you going to bring up the chili scene where he's like, his hands are shaking and stuff? And he's just like, please don't destroy my life. The other motel scene where he's just venting to this other, like, hookup that he has brought into this room and he's sort of saying like I just feel I've always felt like I have to sequester this side of myself and now I feel like that has sent the wrong message and it's helped make my son into this like monster and it felt like this very self-aware and tender

and like it's just everybody just feels like developed in well not everybody but most of the characters feel developed in this like genuinely inspired way and like, again, Nate is just not. It's just, it's like the part in like the season two of preacher, oh my God, like watch how deep this is.

Wow, that's a throwback. Yeah, season two preacher where like their, you know, asshole face guys spending time in hell and it's just like he befriends Hitler and the most evil person in hell is like a jock with like his polo

collar upturned and his name is like Jake or something. And he's literally worse than Hitler. Exactly. Yeah, that feels accurate. I would say Nate is definitely worse than Hitler. But as the season has gone on, he's sort of become this like one sticking point where it's like the rest of the show has come so far that before he defined it a little bit and now it's like he's sticking out a little more as this thing that's undeveloped. But one thing I wanted to talk about specifically with you because this is somewhat your area of expertise is Euphoria's executive produced by Drake. Sure. It is a very expensive soundtrack.

Yes. It ends with a music video starring Zendaya. Yeah. Are we going to talk about like the pacing issues of the finale at all? You mean how they take 15 minutes to just do a music video? I mean like in the the finale is a demonstration of the duality of the effectiveness of Euphoria's soundtrack because there is that montage where Rukum, like RU. Rue's drug addiction starts, she relapses, her father dies, she puts on the hoodie,

it's all this other stuff. And it's the song that's playing during that is a song for you by Donnie Hathaway. And it's just like, it really like tugs at the heartstrings. Like I was having a moment. Yeah, it's the thing I love about Rue's story and the way they handle her addiction is it doesn't feel like they wanted to just talk about addiction. Like the reasons for it. They really wanted to make it about the way that it affects an entire family. Like, especially the scene where, like, you know, Rue and her mom are having a shouting match,

and the little sister is just kind of like, are you proud of yourself right now? And she's just like, why don't you go on since you want to be like your sister? And she was like, I don't want to be like you. And it's just, like, very tough, right? Yeah, and it feels very individual. And the way that Rue's substance abuse is not really separable from the way her father died and the way that poisoned her relationship with her mom a little bit, now her mom has to carry this family.

But yeah, all of this plays out during this musical montage that you're right is like super effective. Right. And then you get to the end of the episode and it's just like, let's just make Rue's relapse a musical number. And I mean, like there have been times where, I mean, like in past episodes where they chase these tangents are, you know, like inhabit these alternate realities within the show that's happening. So like Roo is like a detective, you know, going around school trying to figure out what's

going on with Nate while she's in bed on her computer and on the phone. And then there's also, I mean, like, the first time, the very first episode where she, you know, does a line and then walks around on the walls and the ceiling to Young Thug. There's the inception room tumble. Like, all of that stuff, you know, it's regular to the show. But then this is just like taking it to its logical extreme where she relapses and then there's a church choir. And then, like, her family is there. But, like, you know, they're not responding to her. And it's just kind of like, is she alive?

Is she dead? Does she just relapse? Is she OD? What, you know, like, what is the, what's actually narratively happening? Yeah, and she's singing an actual Zendaya song. Yeah, exactly. I mean, but the thing is that, like, throughout the episode, I mean, throughout the season, they've been teasing that song in different places.

The labyrinth guy who is, I mean, like, appears a lot throughout the soundtrack. Not a lot of his music is available in Spotify. Like, for instance, there's a song called Stunt, Like My Daddy, that plays when Jules goes to town and she's riding around in the tunnel scene. And is the name of one of the episodes. It's also the name of one of the episodes. Each of the episodes is named after a very popular, you know, song. Except for, you know, the troubles of trying to pee while depressed. Exactly.

Yeah. True to the show, it's, like, not that consistent with the styling. It's like, whatever we feel like. But, yes, the show does end when. a song that Zendaya performs and, you know, Mows herself while doing a music video at the end of an entire show that feels like a music video. Yeah, that's very accurate, I think. And also just the finale, so they abandoned the cold open singular focus per character structure. Like, the structure in the finale is unrecognizable to the rest of the season. And also, like, I don't, like, at several points, I wasn't sure what timeline we were all.

on. Like, Cassie and Lexi are sitting at a table at a prom. They say they love each other and then abortion clinic. And then it's just kind of like this couple of weeks leading up to. Yeah, it bites off a little more than it can chew. The framing devices like everyone goes to the school dance, which is a teen touchstone, but then they're, you know, reflecting back to an abortion or Maddie finding, like, concrete evidence that Nate has, like, dabbled on homosexuality and, like, burning it and kind of holding it as her one bit of power. And then, you know, And it was interesting that it both, like, goes way bigger than a lot of other euphoria episodes, but then it just triples down on, like, this is a story about Rue and Jules and specifically, like, Rue's emotional state, especially at the end.

Right, exactly. So, looking forward to season two, are you excited? What do you want to see out of it? Okay. I am now, like, you know what? You know what? I have one simple request. Okay.

I have one simple request. Give us the goddamn Fez episode. The whole thing. Like, he better be alive, too, in season two. That's all I know. I mean, the ringer slack will riot if it doesn't happen. It's unbelievable that this, like, there's also the sort of basically he got the part without even really trying. They picked him up off of just walking the street in Los Angeles.

And he plays the character. Yeah, the same casting agency that did good time, which, like, Fez could absolutely be a character. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I just, I want a buddy cop comedy, like, or a buddy cop dromedy about Fez and Ashtray. That's all I want. I agree. I think like he, Angus Cloud is sort of the breakout just because he was given the least. He obviously didn't have his own standalone episode. And yet everyone I talked to. Everyone I talked to wants to see more of him. My personal request, justice for the good girls. Give Lexi an episode. I watch. to see her studying for her SATs and minding her own business and just living her life. I do think Maude Apatow did a great job.

I really loved her, like, Bob Ross Halloween costume. Oh, yeah, that was great. Which she said in a late night talk show interview, that was the day that Drake decided to come to set. So we just saw her in this like prosthetic beard, which feels like a very lexie thing to happen. But I do think it both, you know, is maybe a knock on the show that these characters haven't been explored yet. but also is an endorsement of the show that we can see that there's a lot there and we want to see more of it.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's like one of those, it's one of those things where, you know, again, because they were given as little as they were, not something, you know, maybe the showrunners even expected it to be a phenomenon as it, like it was, like people wanting to see more of the Lexi character or wanting to see more of the Fez character.

So yeah, season two, give us a Lexi episode and a Fez episode. Yeah, so HBO's Casey Bloyce has said, that Euphoria obviously can't go on forever because it is a teen show. Exactly. And we don't want them to be 35. But we are looking forward to what they do next. Micah, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you for having me.

And when we come back, we're going to be talking a little bit about Orange is the New Black. Hi, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer podcast network. Up on our site, The Ringer has just published their first ever fantasy football rankings. Our NFL experts, Danny Kelly, Robert Mays, Danny Hyfitz, and more rank and analyze the top 150 players in 2019, with printable and mobile cheat sheets to take with you wherever you're drafting. To check out our rankings, and for more preseason coverage, listen to the Danesie football podcast or head over to the ringer.com. Welcome back to The Watch. I am joined on the phone by Caroline Framke, a television critic for Variety, who has written about Orange is the

New Black, as well as many, many other shows. We are going to talk about the final season of Genji Cohen's sprawling seven-season dromedy. just wrapped up on Netflix a couple weeks ago. Maybe listeners are just getting to the end by now. But Caroline, you wrote a piece about what Orange is the New Black meant to TV. And how would you describe this show's legacy now that it's no longer around? You know, it's interesting because I read your piece about the same recently. And I think we kind of came to similar conclusions, which is that it really, in the first place when it came out in 2013, kind of showed what streaming could do if it wasn't.

wanted to. It could be different than premium cable channel. The other original Netflix show that was out was House of Cards, which is obviously something that's much more down the line, kind of like gritty anti-hero guy feels bad about a lot of things show. And Argus New Black was pointedly not that. So I do think that it leaves behind a legacy of opening up the streaming space to be about a much wider variety of people in general. And just sort of a general willingness to get more ambitious. with the storytelling. Yeah, I agree. It's funny. I think everyone kind of had the idea to write a big retrospective about Orange because it really is just, it's such a watershed in TV. I feel like even if it had been, you know, on Showtime, like Genji Cohen's last show, Weeds, it still would have been a hugely influential show just because, like, the sheer

level of diversity and representation in the cast was so unprecedented. But the fact that you combine that with the fact that it was one of the first, like, big original streaming shows and really, like, taught you how to watch TV in a new way. I mean, was there anything about Orange is the New Black that felt, like, very specific to streaming? And the cast of characters, I mean, one of the most famous quotes I think Djeda-Cone is now said in her entire career is that Piper, played by Taylor Schilling, the sort of the blonde white lady from Connecticut was her Trojan horse, her way to sort of sneak in past the usual TV gatekeeping to then tell stories about poor women, people of color, like queer women,

and all these different ways. So I think that that is just what immediately made it stand out. And I think we both kind of made similar points about the fact that because the cast was so big, no one black woman had to speak for all black women, no one queer woman had to tell every queer woman's story. So it really allowed for a much wider breadth of storytelling. And also the fact that, you know, we can and will complain about streaming allowing for lax editing in terms of episode runtime. But the fact that Orange and New Black didn't have to adhere to even premium cable standards of just the one hour that they could give more people room to grow.

Yeah, this is something I've written about with past seasons of the show. But it really feels like one of the very few shows that took up all the space that streaming allows, not just because it could. And that obviously results in a lot of like really bloated distended shows that could deal with like a 10 or 13 minutes shave from every episode. But because it actually had so many freaking people to service with the story and for the viewer to keep track of. And it both had the space to do that, but also the fact that people were binging it, which, you know, once upon a time was this like novel, scary way to watch TV. But it meant that, you know, you could leave someone's story on the back burner for two or three episodes. and bring them back, and it hadn't been, like, a full month since whoever was watching had last seen this person. And it meant that, you know, you could have even more stories going.

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I think even watching it as regularly as I did, there would be people who'd come up who I'm like, oh, wait, who's this again, what's happening? But you're right, that watching it sort of faster all at once makes that less of an issue. And especially with a cap as big as orange, which I still think for a show like that. That TV's had. in general. Our friend Emily Vanderwerf, I think, was itemizing on Twitter, like, exactly how many credited series regulars it has. It's very on brand. And we encourage listeners to seek it out. Maybe we'll link it in the show notes. But I think something we should probably talk about with Orange is it's something that was both tremendously important in its own right, but like it's

inextricable from the rise of Netflix. And it feels so long ago that Netflix was this upstart network that was just funding these new and ambitious series. But, you know, what was Orange's role in your mind in, like, establishing Netflix and how has Netflix kind of evolved since then? Yeah, I mean, I think it just showed on like a much bigger scale than even Jen G. Cohen had done herself that streaming could be different and it could serve as different audiences. And also, you know, the fact that we still don't know what all their viewership numbers are. until they have 40 million people to brag about, means that in the first place, I think,

they didn't have to cater to a viewing audience quite like shows on network or shows on cable where readings really did matter. So I do think six years later, we are seeing Netflix operate much more like a traditional network. Even if we still don't know what the numbers are, it's clear that ratings matter much more to them now. They're definitely taking a harder look

at how many people are watching something versus investment in all the usual network considerations. But in the beginning, there was this willingness to kind of try different things because they didn't have to worry about that. But I do feel like six years in that has been lost a little bit. Yeah, I agree. I mean, we're actually recording this on the day that Netflix just announced they will not be making a third season of the OA.

It's not a show that I particularly liked, but it's a show that a lot of people really appreciated for how strange and bizarre and interesting it was. And it feels like that paired with Tuck and Bertie, a show, both of us I know really love, and you wrote a great column about, you know, how disappointing it is that it got Nix. But it really does feel like Netflix is increasingly less likely, both to give like really risky shows a chance, but also even like successful Netflix shows, it feels like they're content to wrap after like three seasons. And then they'd rather invest in something new that would bring in a new audience. And the fact that Orange got like seven full seasons to tell this huge sprawling story,

I just don't know, like, how often we're going to see that in future with Netflix shows. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested also to sort of take a step back and a broader look at maybe how many of these shows are ending because it's a natural end. It does feel like more, there are more now what seems like abrupt cancellation. I mean, certainly the Tuka and Bertie one was an interesting case because that show came out like three months ago. Saying it was canceled, I think that's part of why it was so startling because it also didn't get much of a chance to grow its audience in a way beyond whoever initially found it. And that's, I think, also going to be a bigger issue going forward is Netflix now has so much stuff that just leading through it to get to what they have is a job in and of itself. And I don't know anyone who Tuka and Bertie is more made for than me, especially even based on my viewing history, and it never came up for me.

So that's obviously an issue in and of itself and wasn't an issue when Orange First came out. You know, they could be like, this is our big show. Please watch our big show. Yeah, totally. I mean, Tuka, I saw people pointing out that, like, the main Netflix social media accounts, sometimes didn't promote it. Like, when I tweeted about it, I had people who were, like, also young women who were active on the internet, hence why they were talking to me.

I didn't even know the show came out. And like, that's exactly the show's target demographic. But I just think it's interesting that you now see, like, Tuka and Bertie's creators, like, Lisa Hanowal has been very public, but like, this is not the outcome she wanted. Or Britt Marling just posted this big note to Instagram that was, like, how sad she is that she can't continue this show. And the OA particularly, like, ended on a cliffhanger, like a very bizarre one. But, you know, it was clear they had more places for the story to go. And there isn't that thing where you'll sometimes. MC shows who kind of know they're on the bubble will write season finalies that could double a series finale if they absolutely had to. And that's, like, not the case with these series. No.

And you brought up the column I read about Tuch and Bertie. Thank you very much. I did get a little bit of blowback on one part of it that I think is relevant here. I had said something to the effect of a show like Tuka and Bertie couldn't exist on another network or that it's far less likely that it would have. And I do stand by that. I do know that other networks have weird stuff, and they have in the past, and that Comedy Central has its late night stuff, and adult swim, and everything. But I do think that there's something to be said for Netflix kind of making a bigger deal out of ordering shows from women and people of color

and making this sort of big push to broaden their shows beyond the usual creator-based, which a network with finite time slots is not as motivated to do. and that's kind of what I meant by it is a shame that it doesn't seem like those kinds of shows are maybe getting as much room as they might need to grow an audience anymore, especially because there's so much content. Yeah, I just think that Netflix has now found itself in a position where in order to adequately promote all its stuff, I just don't even know how they would do that at this point. So I understand that it's a problem.

Definitely. And I mean, circling back to Orange is the new black, I feel like Orange was sort of the beginning of Netflix turning its diversity or the diversity of its creators and cast members into its calling card. I mean, now, like, literally every Netflix thing opens with, like, you zoom in on the end and it turns into a rainbow. And, like, that's their, you know, QC corporate shorthand for, like, we tell a lot of different kinds of stories. But I feel like Orange was this early evidence that, like, maybe streaming wouldn't have quite the same number of, incentives to, as you mentioned, like, finite time slots mean you're going to favor the stuff that is the highest chance of success. And an executive audience, that usually means, like, shows led by and created by white straight dudes. Right.

Orange is not bad. I think, you know, networks in general and even Netflix, like, they're skittish to take risks and try something that is so far outside what they know. But Orange really was a risk in a way. I mean, I know that they're working with someone who has them on Showtime with their shows, but it really was such a big swing. And to see it pay off like this, and for it, it feels genuinely surreal that it's not on. It's not going to be producing new episodes anymore. It just feels so much like a part of the streaming fabric at this point that I feel like

so many of us wrote similar pieces about it ending because it really does feel like TV in the streaming era can be traced to before orange and after orange. Right. And, you know, it also, the story itself, almost the point was that it had an infinite amount of stories it could tell and time that the stories could extend. There was one point when, you know, they had that whole prison riot season. The whole season was the prison riot. I did not like it. But I was like, you could, at the end of that season, they had everyone kind of splitting off to different prisons. And I was like, you could go with any one of those groups and make a whole other show about. Totally. And it's weirdly like it's so hard to wrap something like that up because, again, like, The whole point is that like there's just so much unexcavated ground there.

But maybe we could just talk a little bit about like how the show actually did wrap up. And, you know, did you feel that it did the show justice in those last few episodes? Yeah. I mean, like you said, that was an incredibly big task, especially given how many people there were. I just don't think you can give everyone as much consideration as maybe they deserve. But I do think that the last few episodes did a really good job as best they could to sort of give everyone a moment. You know, some moments, I think, work better than others. They won't get super spoilery.

But I do think that in general, the mission of the show was honored in the end. I think having Piper outside prison trying to make a life for herself and also Cindy, those fitting ways to send the show off to be like, you know, obviously prison hasn't been the entire show. because of the flashbox, but I do, I liked that sort of nod to life goes on outside of these walls. And the ICE attention storyline, which I do think was so ambitious, and this is something that Orange has always done, so it's very ambitious for better and for worse. I do think it could have been introduced maybe a season earlier, but I also think there is no other show that could have done that. So on the sheer merit of that, I'm really glad they did. Right. And I was just so bold over by the fact that.

that, you know, it already has so much, you know, so many fingers in the pie, so many pots on the burner that it really could have just dedicated the entire season to people we already knew and following in their stories and trying to bring that to a close. And the fact that on top of this already gigantic task they'd set out for themselves, they also decided to start a completely new storyline with a completely new set of characters about a related but largely new set of issues was, you know, so trademark orange. and also just really amazing that they would even choose to take that on?

Yeah, I was also really impressed by that. I mean, it's always, like I said, it's always been a super ambitious show, which means that it has been mixed, I think, but it really went for it and it always has made an effort to be timely, and this obviously is an extremely timely storyline that will now live on in Netflix for,

perpetuity. Yeah, and to also incorporate a couple characters that we have known into that storyline with March, because it does tie it to the rest of the show. Yeah, we won't spoil, but there is at least one character who gets a farewell that is directly tied to the ICE storyline. That's just very, very affecting. But yeah, that seems like maybe we can wrap up the orange conversation there, but in terms of a Genji Cohen show that is still on, this Friday sees the premiere of the third season of Glow. My colleague Michael Bauman and I recorded an episode of The Recapable is about a standout episode of it that will go up also this Friday. But, you know, yeah, I sort of have this take that's like, I think Glow is low-key underrated. Like, it just functions at a really high level that I also

don't think is very common on TV these days. It has, it has the, like, adults talking to other adults about adult problems in what is, you know, what is like a very fun, eccentric workplace, but what is basically a workplace in a way that, to me, it scratches that like madmen slash halt and catch fire itch. But, yeah, I know we've both seen some of the new season. So is that, like, an assessment you would generally agree with? How do you feel the third season kind of continues this storyline? Yeah. I really, I've seen a little over half of the new season. season. I won't spell anything. I do. I like the new Vegas setting a lot because Vegas is a place that it's so specific and it does get very myopic and you can feel everyone kind of, I feel like

the first couple of seasons were very much devoted to them learning how to wrestle, learning, what these characters were learning, how to assert themselves in that arena. And now they all know their characters so well that there's a restlessness that's set in and also now they've reached the sort of like base level of success. They were like, looking for that I do think the third season is a little kind of explore other kinds of stories, but you're right that it is still rooted in this workplace situation. And I think what they're doing with Betty Gilpin's character this season is really good as she really fight to be respected. Because it's no coincidence also, again, coming from Jen Jean-Gine, the producers that she's brought up,

that this is a group of women dealing with men. That's just a huge part of it. Yeah, it's also just a very large group of women, which, yeah, I mean, it's not as big an ensemble as Orange is the New Black, but like it literally has half the runtime. It's a half hour show as opposed to an hour-long show. And it shares that Orange is the New Black trademark to me where it's like there are so many characters, it somehow manages to make almost all of them feel very well-service and nuanced and developed. And yeah, it just has that, like, it's obviously a very diverse on ensemble and on Glow, they're very smart about tackling head-on the issue of, you know, are you appropriating a stereotype by playing a character like Beirut or Welfare Queen?

Is it degrading? Is it a little bit of both? How does it make these people feel? And the fact that it just has a lot of trademark orange ethos while also very much being its own thing. Yeah, for sure. It's got so much a bad. You can still, as you said, see the DNA of where it came. from in it. And I just think they're really, they're generally very smart about using its sort of

80 setting in a way that keeps, I remember, you know, there's a storyline in the second season where Allison Bree's character has to deal with a handy producer who grew recruiter for all the wrong reasons. And it was one of those things where it was obviously written a little bit in response to what's been happening in Hollywood and The Reckoning and so on in recent years, but also as a reminder of these issues aren't new. They've been around for decades. And I feel like that is a big part of Glow in a way that it is not quite on orange because Orange is obviously set in our world now.

And Glow feels a little bit like sort of inequity is around. It's been around and also doesn't look so wildly different from what it is now. So that can be depressing. But it is educational. Yes. Well, on a lighter note, there is a very prominent guest star on the, season of Glow. So I would just like to carve out a few minutes for us to talk about how much we love Gina Davis, who plays on the new season, basically the owner of the casino where Glow has

set up shop as a live show. And she cuts a really interesting figure because she's an older woman who is in charge, but also came up as a showgirl through the performance side of things. So she and Betty Gilpin's character, I think, have a really interesting dynamic this year. Totally. It's also just fun. I mean, Tina Davis is first of all such a great actor, but it's also fun to see her in this world specifically because outside, she off

screen has become such a big advocate for decent representation for women on screen. She has her foundation where that's the entire point of it and they have really good resources with great numbers. Any journalist or writers listening to this should go find them. They are very useful.

But I think it is, you know, it's not an accident that this is the show she's guest starring on like this. And to watch her kind of have fun with it is great, but I also, I understood when I heard that she was going to be on the show. Like, oh, of course you're on this show. Yeah, that's true. And also, if you listen to her interview with Mark Marin, which they really have a great hustle going where one of their stars also happens to have a very popular podcast that doubles as a promotional opportunity. Wild. Also, like, Mark Marin is so great on the show. But, you know, she talks about being on Glow and her role on it, but she also talks a little.

lot about her role in promoting gender equity and entertainment. And I definitely recommend listening to that. But, you know, obviously, we recommend that you watch Glow. We recommend that you watch the final season of Orange is the New Black and share your thoughts. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of The Watch. We will be off on Thursday, but your regular host, Chris Ryan, will be back on Monday to share his many takes, many of them probably about succession. And until then, thank you for listening.