The Watch - The ‘Fast & Furious’ Franchise and Our Other Cultural Weak Spots. Plus, ‘Evil’ and ‘Physical.’

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about never seeing the ‘Fast & Furious’ movies and how you sometimes miss your window with certain pop culture phenomena (1:00). Then, Chris recommends ‘Evil,’ an 'X-Files'-esque CBS drama (25:41) and the guys talk about the surprising darkness in Rose Byrne’s ’80s workout series, ‘Physical’ (33:18). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward

and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com.

And joining me on the other line, he thought Tokyo Drift is what happens when you drink too much sake. It's Andy Greenwald. I like what you did with that. Oof. What's up, man? It's Monday.

We are here in the United States of America to talk about popular. culture, mostly television, although Andy, we start today on the big screen. Yes. And with some big screen news, because movies are back, cinema is back, the theaters are open, and people in droves went out this weekend to see F9. The latest installment. That's a driving pun.

Did you know that? They drove to the droves to go see F9, and it made about $70 million, which is the biggest pandemic, post-pandemic opening weekend. I don't know if it's post-pandemic yet, but, you know, we're out and about. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about this. For one thing, there's some business side parts of this story that I think are interesting, because F9 and Quiet Place 2 have been the best performing films so far this year. And both of those movies did not have a streaming, a same-day streaming release.

They're both being windowed in the movie theaters, unlike, say, In The Heights or The Conjuring, for instance. So I want to talk about that. But then I think we may have sort of discussed this before, and I know, I, I've, I've, chatted with people about this, like, when they've asked me about, like, what's a big thing

that you're not really into or something like that? And it is actually, you know, like the big blind spot that I think both of us have in current pop culture is the Fast and Furious movies. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

First of all, I didn't know you were also ignorant or didn't know how to drive. I don't know what the term is for those of us who aren't conversant. But I figured we should talk about this franchise, but I also didn't want to pretend for a second that I know a single thing about it.

I've never seen any of the movies. So first, let's talk just briefly about the industry scenario here. I guess my take, and this is not exactly a hot tag or even a warm take, is that doesn't this all kind of make sense? I mean, if we are stripped, if we've stripped down to the bone, this entire cinema-going experience, then doesn't it make sense that the only successful franchises are going to be successful franchises?

And then slowly as we renew, you know, whether it's consumer confidence or we keep, you know, we keep crushing the curve if that's what we're still doing or whatever, there might be a chance for something. I'm a little unclear. Let me know, America. What are we doing? I'm just doing my own research over here. But, you know, then maybe because I guess, let me rephrase it. I guess in a normal year, which, God, we would be lucky to have one again, a quiet place too. and F9 being massive blockbusters,

especially in comparison to other films, isn't a surprise. I think the surprise is when something unexpected breaks through and pops and that sort of resets everyone's expectations. The big test, I think, and by the way, no one is happier for our nation's independent distributors

and cinema houses than me. I've long been an ally. Art House Andy. Yeah. It's just you're always outside of. No, multiplex Mr. Greenwald is what I'm known as. Okay.

Arthouses are fine. The most interesting test coming up in my eyes is the Black Widow release, not just because that is a franchise that I'm familiar with, but because Marvel and Disney are doing the other thing with that, meaning it is in theaters. They've held it for a year like F9. It is in theaters on July 9th. But it is also on the sort of pay 30 bucks and you have access to it on Disney Plus. It's the great experiment.

which has only happened so far, I believe, with their kids films as the $30 Araya and The Last Dragon debit line on my recent bank statement proves. That said, my children watched the living S out of that movie. They've watched it so many times that I actually feel like I get earned out. It's not like a 24-hour rental or anything like that. No. Oh, okay, that's really interesting. I was calling friends with kids and being like, for $5, your child can watch this movie

at my house. But no, we basically, it's paid for itself. Anyway, that will be interesting because I think that will be in many ways the first big test of something that our buddy and certainly the Big Picture podcast buddy, Sam Esmell, has said, which is that if something is popular, people are going to see it. And the more ways they can see it, the better.

And so my expectation is that Black Widow will do very well in theaters and whether Disney shares the information with us or not will probably also do quite well at home. I think that that will be, it's not a big test. Obviously, Marvel doesn't need any more, um, any more like confidence boosters. Like, we, we all have market confidence in, in what MCU is doing.

You guys are doing great. We have for years, speculated, wondered, thrown out like price tags and movie franchises that we would be like, if you could watch this at home. And I think, honestly, like, when you had kids, I think this came up a bunch where it was just like, you know, I can't get out to the movies. I can't get out to the movies. to the movies. And I was like, if I could give you no time to die for 50 bucks right now, like, what's the bid? You know what you mean? And 30 bucks for this Marvel movie that you will then

own, although I do wonder, when does Black Widow then revert to the normal MCU library? You know what I mean? Like, when does it just become, if I don't buy it on, on Disney exclusive ploose, ploose, when do I get it just as like part of my subscription? Two things. People love live radio. This is probably Googulable. But I believe that one, one of the things that is shortened is that... Should we take some calls? I would love to do that someday. That theatrical exclusive window, right,

when something eventually does come to Disney Blues as a streaming option. I think that that, in the old days, that would be a full calendar year almost before it hit, you know, HBO or whatever, or even Netflix. Now I think that window is definitely shortened. The relationship between when you can pay for it

and when it becomes available to you, I'll tell you, it will sting a little bit when Ryan and the Last Dragon is just streaming. streaming. It's just streaming. That will sting a little bit and that has not, that has not happened. That's 30 bucks. You'll never get back. But there have been hours of peace and quiet that I did get. That's true. It's worth it for me. But yeah, that I think is, that I think is still TBD. But I do want to say, the Fast and Furious thing is pretty perplexing because I think if I had known how many years ago to that first movie come out, almost 20 years ago, that this, I mean, that was the kind of movie

that would just sometimes happen before everything was franchises, right? They were like, I guess, race cars, Vin Diesel, sure. And it came out, it was a moderate hit, it had a sequel, then it kind of petered out, and there was the Tokyo Drift sequel, which now I guess matters in the canon, but at the time felt like we're just,

we own something and we don't know what we're doing with it. But then it morphed into a global juggernaut at some point. An interplanetary one, apparently, yeah. It's so wild, and that in and of itself makes it very interesting to me. But, you know, nobody wants to hear us podcast about something that is beloved that we don't understand. I guess I should say that the length that I have gone to not know about this franchise is remarkable. I've now missed nine movies.

And I believe, shout out to our friend Ben Heller, when I moved or when they moved to California, he gifted me with a DVD of the first one. He was like, you should watch it. It's fun. Sorry, Ben. That was like a going away president? Or was it like, welcome to California, welcome to car culture. This is what having a car is like? I'm just going to say yes to that. I think that's what it was.

I think we missed our window a little bit with these movies. And I think that they missed an opportunity with us. Oh, I love this. Let's put it on them. I think that you and I coming out of the 90s, self-effacing irony merchants that we are. For sure. And let me just throw a note back at Vin, at Justin Lynn, and all the guys. What if it wasn't so fast and it wasn't so furious? You know? What if it was just like people and their cars, you know, and you know, you got yourself

a new EV vehicle? I do. You know, and it's like all the issues you're having with downloading software for your OS. I got myself a nice new car I'm pretty happy about, but I don't drive it that fast. Sometimes I tease it, tease it around 85 on the two. Don't come get me. Don't come get me, Gavin. I'm just saying that's what I do. But what if it was just a bunch of people and they had their cars and they were like, hey, what's your, what's going on with you? Isn't this the Duplas Brothers series togetherness? Like, isn't that where you're just pitching? But more car forward is what I'm saying. Like Duplas brothers, but more cars. You know, more Volkswagen. I have a question for you, car related. This did come up last week. And this is the opposite of, this is, this is the slow and the

ornery. Okay. But I, I guess the thing I relate to most is is the second word in the title, because nothing makes me angrier than people doing things slightly wrong in cars. So like where I live, there's narrow streets and generally if you see someone coming up the street,

you have to sort of pull over and someone, you know, comes up. You let them go. Wait, wait, wait, so let me ask you that. Yeah. What's the rule? If you're going up and down, let's say I'm driving up.

Is it my job to move aside or isn't there? I think it's contextual. I think it depends on the street. Who's got this space? Right. And you understand it. But if someone does

doesn't obey or like, you know, and then just barrels past, I get just unnaturally angry. But there is an antidote. There is an anti-venom for the venom of road rage that I think, I was wondering if it's universal. I want to shout out to the distributors of the Fast and Furious film. I wonder if it's something that you agree with as well. And I feel like it's in many ways one of the most powerful interhuman gestures that exist. and to me it is this. It is the silently mouthed,

sorry or okay and wave. If someone is doing something that I find annoying in a car like they've blocked the street or they've suddenly like screeched down in front of me or they're suddenly doing a three point turn that they shouldn't have or they didn't give me the right of way

when it was mine, I am boiling. It's the only time I'm like, I have to apologize to my children. It bothers me so much. But if that person, that egregious criminal then turns to me, one hand up, my bad it melts like the polar like the arctic layer yeah okay brotherhood of man is is like

re it's refastened to your yeah the silent mouthing of a word matters too what if he's not saying my bad what if he's like well i'm very bad i'm very bad at reading lips but i've never encountered a gesture between humans that is as powerful as the hand up the hand up okay yeah brotherhood of men and women whatever we're all we've all made mistakes so my I think is... So this is what the movie should be about, is what... It's interesting that you view yourself as always, like, the kind of the victim in these sort of scenarios where somebody's taking the wrong right away or whatever.

These kind of scenarios? In Los Angeles, I think that everybody gets to play every part. You know what I mean? It's a... I know some character actors who would disagree with you. It's a town of fairy tales, and often I will find myself, hey, you know what? Maybe was I deciding what podcast to listen to while I was waiting for a left turnlight? Oh, you got the honk?

Yeah. But, you know, typically it's not like a honk. It's like, it sounds angry. Like, people get real pissed off at the most like, oh, okay, sorry. Like, so we all added on like two minutes to our commute here in this terminable smog, desert drought land. Like, I'm sorry about that. I get very defensive.

I get really like, you know, I hope you're happy now. I hope you're happy that you honked at me. You know, I try to be like a pretty forgiving driver on the flip side. Like, you know, I drive with someone who I. may or may not be married to frequently who does not have my sense of patience in the car. And she will often sort of like encourage me to get into altercations, not like physically, but she's just like, that's what the horn is for. And I'm like, I don't actually give a shit. Like, you know, I like sitting in my car.

She's like peshy and goodfellas. I'm listening to Bill and Ryan. I'm having a good time. I'm not, I don't need to get into some road rage incident over whether or not a guy zoomed through a yellow or not. So it's all there. And the reason we were talking about Fast and Furies so much is because we wanted to talk about this idea of cultural blind spots, though. Yeah, so it's weird, I guess, is what I wanted to say is it doesn't necessarily feel, for a while, I think, speaking about coming out of the 90s, there was maybe a badge of honor

in certain ignorance, you know, like, oh, I don't have time. Like people used to say they didn't own a TV. one of, I don't think anyone does that anymore, but for a good 10, 20 years, the single most annoying thing anyone does say. It doesn't imply they don't watch television. It just means that they just watch it all on their laptop. That's fair.

Yeah. Not knowing anything about Fast and the Furious just means that every year or two, I miss an opportunity to share a collective joy, which is on me. That's a bummer. The, but I do think we should be honest about this because everyone has them, and I wonder where things stand culturally.

Like, we do this podcast and we constantly reference, you know, the Mount Rushmore of recent prestige TV that kind of influenced and informed what our ability to even do this thing. So we talk about, we'll throw out a reference to The Sopranos or to Mad Men or to the Wire. We've seen them. I feel like a lot of TV fans have seen all of those shows and are conversant in them. But up until very recently, as I think I've said it before in this podcast, I had never. I didn't understand. I didn't know a single thing about Harry Potter. Mallory Earmuffs.

I'm so sorry. But, you know, I told myself, oh, this is great because this is something I'll save to experience with my children. And then the day came and I bought the first book and I was reading it with my older daughter and she liked it. And then she was like, can we start the second book? And I was like, yes, but Daddy's basketball team is on tonight or whatever. And the next thing, she's finished the second book. And then she read all seven without me. So you only read the first one.

I read, I read, then she was like, hurry up and catch up. So I did read the second one. And then at a certain point, I just gave up because I can't, I can't catch up. And then I just realized that that was it. I missed that chance to be culturally conversant in a culturally dominant thing. What else are you lacking? Because I have another layer of this. Look, I also have not. I've seen Tokyo drift. I think I've seen one or two other ones in bits and pieces, either on cable or on planes or something like that, but I never really got into the Fast and Furious movies. It's one of those things that I think there's a spectrum, right? Like you can be super, super

into them and like really enjoy the shit out of them. You can be like, I understand that they're important in terms of like their cultural sort of impact. So I'm going to kind of like have a working knowledge of them. Maybe, you know, work demands

that you read them, would see them. I never found myself in a work situation where I had to have seen them, you know, because there's other people at the ringer or whatever that like it more than I do or just already know about it. And then

honestly it's just like I just kind of like let him go and now I'm just kind of like it's fine that that's the that's one thing that I don't follow now so there's there's fast and the fears but then there's stuff where it's not that I don't know what happened or even that I haven't seen every episode or seen the movies as much as I didn't participate in it the way that you would sort of think that I don't know somebody with my job maybe should have or someone with my taste maybe should have and the number one thing for that is Sopranos for me I think over the course of my life, I have seen all the, like, important parts of Sopranos. I know what happens on the Sopranos. I certainly watched the last two seasons of the Sopranos, very intently and the last season,

especially. I did not watch the Sopranos like every Sunday, nor have I ever had, like, get out the prayer mat and rewatch the Sopranos from beginning to end and worship it, kind of thing. I think it's always been something that was like, oh yeah, like the Sopranos is also on now. and I would see some episodes. And I think that if you said an episode or a moment on The Sopranos, I'd be like, I have seen that. But when I see people on Twitter,

especially over this last year, when a lot of people were watching The Sopranos, talk about it. I'm like, it's just one of those things that I missed. I think that's an interesting example. I actually think, and maybe there are people who are listening, who are in a similar place,

in a way, times have never been better to remedy this. not because, and I even want to change the language on that, because I think that, as you're saying, like, the sunset window on Sopranos being the most relevant thing to our understanding of how TV works or how HBO works, that's kind of done. Not to say it's not important and influential. I'm just saying that it isn't the first go-to reference for what's happening right now anymore. And in a way, that frees the show of the burden of responsibility and of homework and of the sense of obligation that might have been attached to it for a while in order to just get into the fray. And because of that, and this people who experienced it for the first, second or fifth time during quarantine, for example, might be able to vouch for this. The fact that it is just a deeply pleasurable experience can return to the four. And it's one of the reasons why I think the most watched or rewatched, or in the case of people like us and older, rewatch, but they don't remember it, experiences of the last year. Anecdotally, for me, we're hearing about Sopranos and the West Wing. Those were the two things

that people were like, oh, this is a tonic. Oh, it's so great to have in my life again in a certain way. Okay, so that's the TV version. The one that I want to challenge you with, and the reason I wanted to bring this up, regardless of the Fast and the Furious thing, is I had a conversation last week with a successful screenwriter. This is not a humble brag.

I just don't want to, unless he says it's okay to say who it was, we were having just a very brief conversation, and it came up that he finally admitted to someone after years of denying it or bluffing that he had never actually seen Castle Blon. He just, he just acted like he did because he gets it and he knows how to use it in a reference, you know? And in a way, it's the sort of shout out to our favorite film kicking and screaming. It's the sort of, I've been to Prague, been to Prague.

Sure. You know what I mean? And the, I think that's a different level than a cultural blind. Well, also, but Casablanca has become, like, there are moments in Casablanca that, like, are so, have permeated the culture so much that you wouldn't even necessarily know where it comes from. Like, yes. Here's looking at you as just, like. it's something people say. You know what I mean?

It's not... It's a late lamented restaurant in Korea town. Yes, that's right. But so what I wanted to ask you, and we could ask Kaih, too, if we're taking away the... So there's the cultural monolith stuff, you either you buy in or you buy out. And I guess in a way, it's not a hardship to be completely ignorant of the Fast and the Furious movies. It just seems kind of like a bummer or a buzzkill. But the bin to Prague, bin to Prague, like there are things that I realized recently,

that have always been on my list of, yeah, I'm going to get to that. Like, sure, when I have some moments, I'll check that out. But I feel like this, I feel like your thing is going to be stunning. Well, I think there are probably more than one, but the one that occurred to me last night that I finally decided to admit to myself that I have never seen, and I'm going to admit to you. I'm going to admit to you and this podcast, and I feel like you're going to be appalled with me. Very forgiving listeners. Historically forgiving listeners.

Their understanding of my not knowing what Southern Comfort was in service. of a bad joke to start the last podcast was really, that was decency. You know what I mean? That was grace. Thank you for that. I've never seen apocalypse now. Hmm.

I've never seen that film. That's an important film. It is. People talk about it all the time. There's a documentary that people like almost as much as the film. Yes. And I've never seen it. Yeah.

Now, have I read the Joseph Conrad novel? Yeah. Yeah, I read that. But I would see the movie. And now what do I do? Watch the movie. I guess I guess you can see it. Watch the movie.

Okay. really, really good. Okay, right. So there's no reason not to, but I realized that I was kind of caught in this feedback loop of, and that's not the only one, I'm sure there are other movies, but do you have something like that where you can admit now, and I hate putting you on the spot, I apologize, but like, is there something that you have just nodded your way through enough? And there are other examples in my own filmography.

Like, you once on this podcast, like six years ago, you like looked me dead in the eye. We were probably in person. And you were like, you've seen. jaws, right? And the answer is yes. Do I remember any of it? I mean, there's a boat and they need a bigger one. Yeah, but I don't feel conversant in it. Is there something about, like, is it the era of those movies? Like, is it late 70s, early 80s American movies? Because you sit around watching French films. Like, you're like, oh, I'm on like the third worst Bertrand Tavignay movie tonight. You know, like, how could you just not watch Jaws or apocles? I have seen Jaws, but I haven't seen it,

seen it. But I don't remember it and I haven't revisited it. No, so it's, it's funny because there was a year, you know this, where my now wife and I did not live in New York City because she had a job that was outside of the city. So we were not living there. And why are you acting like it was like, it was just in America, right? Like, yeah, yeah. I was in America. No, I was, I was just trying, I was just being vague just because the point is that was the year. You just went full Malotrue there for a second. Don't worry about it. It was diplomatic cover. Don't ask. Don't worry about it. I was teaching

in Amman. Sure. The point being, that was prime red envelope Netflix year. And that was the year in retrospect that I'm extremely grateful for because that was the year where I was like Robert Altman, let's do this. Let's fill in all these gaps

in knowledge and watch all these 70s movies and read a lot of books. And it's basically and actually watched I was behind on the Sopranos, got the DVDs caught up. Right. So I'm very grateful for that year off culturally, but I just didn't get to the biggie, probably because I couldn't admit.

Like, I feel really free right now. Yes, although I was very late on that. I didn't watch the Godfather movie still after college. What did you think? You know, they're pretty good. What do you want to say? The whole point, the reason why these things, these blind spots are interesting is that you probably, A, come at them with a little bit of cynicism because you're like,

there must have been some reason why I show. not to watch this thing. This is how you described yourself as a driver, by the way. This is the same thing. That's right. I'm noticing. And then I think that you have, maybe you're sort of, it's rare that I think someone is like,

I don't want to watch this for whatever reason. Like, either it doesn't look like it's my thing. It's too late. I got it already because people talk about it all the time or even like I've read, you know, articles about it. And then when they actually see it, it's pretty rare, I think, especially nowadays when everybody expresses even just a,

thought as if it's a take. Yeah. Like, I think people would be more like, I find it really difficult. Like, one of the reasons why I think I don't go see fast movies is because I don't think I would probably like go in there with like an open mind and an open heart. And I don't want to be a dick and be like fast movies suck to people, you know, who love, love them. So, I don't know.

It's an interesting conversation. I'd be curious to know what our listeners have felt with their blind spots are. A couple of others that I had jotted down were. Yeah. I've never seen Rick and Morty in my entire life. Okay. which obviously, like, I have sort of a prejudice against animation anyway, but everybody, you know, that's obviously become like a huge touchstone, especially for some of the younger, like, ringer staffers have always just been like Rick and Morty, Rick and Morgan Morgan. I'm just like never seen it. And obviously in the history of this podcast, I think that my two biggest blind spots vis-a-vis my relationship with you have been Americans and Halton Catch Fire. Oh, that's right. Yeah. But I didn't watch a lot of Americans. I just didn't watch it like a lot, like all the time.

and care. Well, that's why, you know, this is actually not a bad segue because despite the catchphrase of this podcast, you know, I never watched The Good Wife. Yeah, I don't think you've ever seen

Christine Bransky on the small screen, have you? Well, I was a big fan of the sitcom Sibble. Oh, that's right. So that was really where my affection for her took off. Good friend's back now. And remember the tribute to Stephen Sondheim on his 90th birthday last year.

That was, I watched it on a small screen and choose of that. So, I know, I get it. I've been to Prague, Christine Bransky. But I think isn't that a good segue? Because you wanted to talk about the King's new show, which I haven't seen. Oh, yeah. I just wanted to recommend this, you know, and this is one that I think, you know,

this show has not become such a phenomenon that you would feel left out or this would be considered a blind spot. If anything, I would just encourage people to check this out if they have a paramount subscription or if they just have a way of watching it. I'm not sure. I don't think this is actually on, is this on CBS? This is where we're at now where I'm not even sure if it's on terrestrial CBS. But check out Evil. So it's the more recent show.

It's in its second season now from Robert and Michelle King, who created The Good Wife and the Good Fight. And it has its hooks in me, man. So basically, the second season for this show just premiered. And just to be clear, it began as a CBS broadcast show. The second season officially moved the show from CBS. to Paramount Plus. Right. And so if you have Paramount Plus for any variety of reasons, I would definitely, definitely check this out.

So it stars Katia Herbers and Mike Coulter as basically a Mulder and Scully, you know, Holmes and Watson set up where Coulter plays this guy, David Acosta, who I'm only on the first season, so I'm sure things change. And you guys don't have to at me and be like, wait until you find out he's Satan or anything. But thank you for that. guy who is hired by the church to investigate the legitimacy of possessions. And he in turn hires Katja Herber's character to be his sort of cynical, you know, he's basically like his sounding board. She's got a background in, I think, forensics.

And she works a lot with like district attorneys to determine whether or not someone's criminally insane or not. She gets hired by this guy. and they basically investigate, do a case of the week of supernatural phenomena, but in the sort of traditional, you know, CBS style, there's a case of the week and then there is like sort of a more overarching plotline that runs through the season, which involves Michael Emerson, who people obviously remember from Lost in Person of Interest, who is this sort of devilish figure who, we're still waiting to find out exactly who he is. And it's so well done. It is so funny

it is so sharp. It's got that same sense of humor that the Kings have, which is a lot of visual gags and cutaways and little like sort of flourishes that just you don't often see on network shows. It's definitely pushing that edge of the same way the good fight does where it's like, this is almost an HBO show

where they're like in terms of cursing and references to sort of sexual stuff and whatever violence, but kind of keeps it within the boundaries of good taste and if anybody is looking for like a really good binge, the first season's obviously up there. I think the second season, I don't know if it went up in its entirety yet,

but I really, really recommend it. I'm really enjoying myself. I love hearing that. I might even check it on myself. You're an X-Files person, right? Very much so, yeah. I love the X-Files. It does raise a question that maybe we could get into

in more depth once we've thought about it more, but the Kings are, despite my, you know, I haven't watched their shows, but fairly unique in that, they are so, so, so good at operating at such a high level within what many people have complained about as a restrictive atmosphere of a broadcast network or the parameters of it, in terms of language, in terms of content, in terms of act breaks and length and just how you tell a story and how many episodes you do it in. And they just seem exceptional at it, right? And,

and their shows have been the gold standard for that type of storytelling for a while. And I'd be curious, you know, the second season, it sounds like, was made for the company of Viacom when then they put it on Paramount Plus. But if it gets a third season, it will be the first one made exclusively for a streaming home where they could be freed of those restrictions. Sure. Something that they've already experienced with the good fight. And I wonder if there's any lag, you know, or if there's any learning curve or if some of the things that they are good at don't translate as well. The reason I ask, without knowing, is because for me, and we've talked about before Girls 5Eva,

the Meredith Scardino created Tina Faye and Bob Carlock produced comedy on Peacock. I love it. It's so silly, but the jokes are so funny. And I watch it.

And I'm not a prude, but like when Sarah Borellas just drops an F-bomb where a human would, I'm like, was that necessary? They do that on good fight too. You know what it is? Is like that show Girls 5Eva

without being too reductive about it looks like 30 Rock. You know, I mean, it has the, of a Tina Faye show. This show, Evil, as does Good Fight, looks like a CBS office drama or a CBS shot on a soundstage drama. I mean, there's some exteriors, but for the most part, when they're in a rectory, you and Clark Johnson, who plays Mike Coulter's sort of partner or boss, yeah, awesome. You know, it's great to see Clark Johnson on camera and a great TV director, too,

a great director as well. But when you see Clark Johnson and David Acosta, it's like, that's the set next to the other set. You know what I mean? There's no, there's a certain almost like, not fakeness, but like old fashioned sense to the show that I kind of enjoy, you know? Like I kind of do like, it's like,

oh yeah, you guys shot this at Silver Cup or at sunset hour or wherever you shot this, you know? And that has more of like, I think, an impact on me than whether or not someone's cursing on that set. Because as we've seen with a movie, we haven't gotten a chance to talk about this, but Kevin can fuck himself

and a bunch of shows that have sort of subverted, quote unquote, the, it's live, it's in front of a live studio audience on a set, but like we're doing weird stuff, you know? And I think some of those shows are more successful than others. I think it would be great to talk about Kevin could fuck himself at some point. But it's, it's wild to watch those shows and get that little bit of a jolt of like, oh yeah, this isn't, this is not on CBS.

And it's not just because of the commercials. No, I think you're right. It's not just the language. It is a rhythm thing, too, and just a vibe. And one of the things that the TV creators, can work with or that they can find working against them is the expectation game. This is being presented to me in this format that I'm familiar with or with these stars that I'm used to or on this network where I get my other helpings of X.

And then it doesn't feel like that. And I wonder if that contributed a little bit to my, like we're saying, I love Fay and Carlock shows and I loved watching many episodes of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. But I also didn't give it my same level, the same level of devalful. Votion as I did 30 Rock. And partly for me, that was because the episodes, you know, they could put in all the jokes they wanted. And more jokes is great.

But when Tina Fey and Robert Carlock comedy is 26 minutes, 29 minutes, 32 minutes, it's a very different experience than when it's this like almost impossibly, dangerously tight 21 minutes. And I had a similar reaction to a series that I'm not, we won't comment on. I didn't finish it yet. But like Mike Schuris Rutherford Falls also kind of fell into that. zone where maybe it's on me as much as it is on them, where I was like, I am ready. Bring me the next Parks and Recreation type of energy show. And I understand how it's going to be delivered

to me. But it was also doing, it was doing something more interesting than that, not necessarily more interesting, doing something different than that. It was doing its own thing and exploring its own path and the type of story it wanted to tell in the 10 episodes that it had because it was made for a streamer. And so at what point does my expectation trip me up versus the execution? and I know we had a couple more things to get to, but that's an interesting, let's put a pin in that for when we talk about the Apple TV Plus show Physical,

which we're going to do momentarily. Yeah, let's take a quick break and we can do that next. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night

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going to talk a little bit about this Apple TV show physical, which came out, started, premiered about two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And we didn't get a chance to hit it right when it dropped. I think three episodes were up. It was actually just a week ago. It was they dropped three at once. Oh, okay. And then the fourth one just went up. So four episodes are available on Apple. I saw two. I think Andy, you saw three. Yep.

And let's talk a little bit about what it's about. So you probably have seen commercials or billboards or maybe advertisement somewhere. But when you go to Apple TV, at least when I do, it's like not immediately obvious that it's there. I think it's like come. I don't want to say it's come and gone, but I think it's like they don't quite know what to do with it. And I think once you see it, you'll know why. It is a show set in the dawn of the Reagan era in 1980s. starring Rose Byrne.

She played as a woman named Sheila who's living in San Diego with her husband, Danny. They are sort of refugees from the 1960s, who have obviously drifted through the 70s and found themselves sort of like washed up

in San Diego kind of as as sort of clinging to sort of certain ideals and I guess lifestyle choices of the free love era and of the 60s hippie era. But,

and as a sort of certainly of the student political activism era, but are now kind of like trying to figure out what they're going to do with the rest of their lives. And he's a teacher at a local college. She's a housewife. They have a child named Maya. And the first episode begins.

And just a little bit of background about who did it. It's Annie Weissman, who's worked on the path and suburgatory and desperate housewives. So she wrote and created it. And the first episode's directed by Craig Gillespie who did Itania. And Cruella.

And Cruella. and it is definitely one of the more self-loathing shows I think I've ever seen on television in terms of the characters, right? Like the characters themselves, like when you start watching it,

the level of bile, essentially, that it is being said and also experienced by the characters and just how much they kind of hate themselves is almost overwhelming when you first start watching. And it's communicated mostly through Rose Burns' voiceover. And I would say it's basically like the first episode is essentially the second half of Goodfellas

except substitute the cocaine for hamburgers. Because Rose Burns' character who is grinding through her life where she's running out of money, she's running out of hope, she's married to this loser, she's in San Diego, she doesn't know what she's going to do with herself, has got a very, very serious eating disorder. And that is the main sort of focus of the show. up until the last moments of the pilot. And it is definitely like an adjustment. And I have almost nothing but admiration

for how much this show is itself. You know, and it might be challenging for some people because you're just like, hey, what's on, what's on whole Apple TV? We're all the affirming, like life affirming. Yes. Searching, make a better world shows are. And this is a fucking hot shot cooked to kill.

Like it is really, really, really, really, dark and it took me like an episode and a half to like get my bearings. You know what I mean? And just kind of figure it out. So what did you think? Yeah, I think, well, two things. I think we should just also, for people who haven't seen it, the framing device of the show suggests that within a five-year span, Sheila will be an aerobics queen. She'll be like Jean Fonda or something, yeah. That she will have her own studio or industry or basically she'll be very successful in this field in aerobics, which she discovers in the pilot. that framing device seems to be the major stumbling block for the critterati critic karate like when I went after watching the show you know I paused I didn't check it out right away because I sort of probably maybe unfairly took the temperature of Twitter and critics seemed to be very upset about the this show starts in 1986 but then flashes back five years and we in that whole thing which has become a cliche but that that seemed to be the largest complaint about the show which caused me not to check it out right away um

To your point, yeah, I mean, people know this about me. No one knows it as well as Chris that like I bring expectations and I bring my own very rigid sensibilities and aesthetics to things. And I wrestle like usually through the text message window with Chris in the first 15 minutes of things that are challenging. And I wish I was better at this. And I was so glad that I stuck through it because I found the beginning of the show incredibly challenging, incredibly difficult.

not just the subject matter, but the visceral intensity and highly stylized nature of it was shocking. And furthermore, you know, it is, well, ultimately, I guess what I want to say is I really came to like it. Well, first I really came to admire it. To your point, Chris, like, this show does not give a fuck. and it is so wild. I can't believe it's on Apple. I got to be honest. I cannot believe it's on Apple.

I want to talk about that too. It is exactly the type of show that I think would be, you know, I said this just last week or in our last show, that the most interesting times in television have been when new services, new channels have emerged and taken chances on the desk drawer scripts that proven creators have to get them jobs, not to be the job. And I don't know Annie Weissman. I hope we get to talk to her at some point. But she has an enviable career and a huge CV working on very, very, very successful shows. She was under an overall universal TV.

And she, you know, she just if there's been a broadcast show of note, suburgatory, about a boy, the show last year she ran for them called Almost Family. I mean, she's done the work in a lot of different genres. And I haven't, I didn't watch all of the path. I didn't watch all of those shows that I'm just mentioning. but I don't remember any of them having the ferocity that this show has. And that strikes me as this is the thing she wanted to do. And I don't know if there had been an opportunity to do it.

The flip side of that is Apple, yeah, it's a fledgling service. It's a fledgling service of the world's richest company. And, you know, I checked out this morning just to catch up. I checked out the trailer for Invasion, this big Simon Kinberg, sci-fi show that's coming this fall with Sam Neal. And you can check out the foundation. new trailer that came out, and both of them are just invasion, the idea of aliens war of the world. That's a very old idea. Foundation is...

There's currently a War of the World show on. Exactly. Right. Foundation is, for me, like the Err Science Fiction text, the Isaac Asimov book, which isn't intense. It's kind of whimsical and thoughtful and just kind of wondering. You know, it's not really... Did the trailer look like the books that you read? No. They got pushed through the Christopher Nolan machine. You know what I mean? And now and now every... Everything is this giant dark thing. And we'll talk about Foundation later when it happens. I think it's relevant.

The book Foundation, 60 years old, it doesn't lend itself to a prestige TV show naturally. This is a choice, and I think it's a successful choice to have a franchise, which is what Apple wants. All of this is to say, Apple isn't AMC in 2006 taking a chance on Breaking Bad. So the fact that there's a space for this in its offerings,

and it's still kind of initial offerings for two years, is notable. So I just, So I just want it's just on the Apple thing. Can I just say something really quickly? So I obviously, I love for all mankind, especially at second season. I talked to Ronald Moore a little bit earlier in the year about that. And that'll wind up on my 10 best list unless there's like an absolute miracle run of 15 great shows that knock it off. I thought that was great. That show for all it's sort of grappling with certain dark elements is essentially like a very aspirational and heartwarming show about the possibilities. of what we can do as a species. You know, and I think that I wouldn't necessarily say that's the same viewpoint of the morning show, but the morning show also is, I think, somewhat aspirational

in, you know, both the idea that people can pull together and do something, but more like, I think, the kind of the way people look and where they live and what their furniture looks like, it's like a high end. I think that's what I'm trying to say, is like a lot of these Apple shows are very high end.

And in some ways, like Ted Lasso is the sort of figure ahead of that, like, the thing that people have, like, really fixated on with Ted Lasso is this idea of kindness, this idea of niceness, this idea that we're turning the page from cynicism or whatever and, like, embracing, uh, being curious to, to quote his big, famous monologue. But then there are these outliers. There are these outliers, like, mosquito coast, which I've watched a few episodes of, and I would like to finish this, this first season is, like, that could have been an AMC show. That could have been an HBO show. That could have been a show where this guy is living off the grid and he's kind of a genius, but he's also really

difficult and his family's along for the ride, but they're also like starting to wonder, maybe he doesn't have it all together, and the cops are chasing him and he's on the run. Like that is an anti-hero story. Yes. This, and this is, this is just way the fuck out there. Like, this is closer to Fleabag than it is glow, but even Fleabag had the breaking the wall of like, winking and like laughing about it. when Roseburn breaks the wall, when she's doing her voiceover, she's like, I'm a piece of shit.

I'm a fat fucking piece of shit. And you're like, this is, I'm gripping my armrests here. Yeah, because I mean, you said it's a dark world view. It's her. It is a, this is Roseburn show. The whole show is told through Sheila's POV, and it is savage. It is violent in its tenor. And it was shocking, and it pulled me in because people think like this. People have these voices. in their head. Women have these voices in their heads. And I don't think I've ever seen a television show that attempted to consider that. You have this voice in your head when you're driving. Unless someone raises a hand. That is my get-out-of-jail-free card. It's really stunning. And it is definitely not for everyone. But the totality of the commitment to it of this world absolutely

works for me. And it starts with Rose Burns' performance, which is astonishing. I mean, there aren't very many actresses in general, I think, who are as facile with both drama and comedy. And kind of, it's just coming from the same place. It's a little bit, it's like Gene Smart in that she's not a comedic actress. She's not a dramatic actress. She's just an actress. And she's always fully present and always alive, regardless of the circumstance. Craig Gillespie's direction is stunning in the first episode.

It's not just the production design. There's a moment, but there's a scene between Sheila and her husband, Danny, played by the comedian Rory Scovel, where they're walking on a beach that's just ensconce in the marine layer. And they're kind of lost in the fog on the beach. And I've never seen a shot like that. I've just have never seen a staging like that. Right. And then the next piece is you never see a,

you rarely see the completely thoughtless way men can act. Just illustrated on this show. Right. You know, where, yeah, he sucks. But he's also. you know, not stupid and liked by some. And also, while talking, holds his mug out for his wife to just fill without saying anything, you know. And we see her see it. And we see her see all of it. And it is savage and relentless. And but set in a place in a world that opens up with, you know,

sort of pre-gentrification San Diego and the aerobic studio and the mall. It all works. And there's a version of this show where they're walking this tonal tightrope where I definitely could have tumbled off one side, the wrong side early. But this isn't that. I am emotionally invested in the show. I'm really excited by the show. And to your point about why Apple is doing this, I have no idea. But the one piece of it that felt to me like either a note or a suggestion or the thing that Apple liked before they went off to introduce the new iPad is the first five minutes. Because the first five minutes of the pilot with the sort of flash forward to the success, which is, you know, wish fulfillment thing that you're speaking to that I think is part of Apple's core DNA.

And then the first scene at a party they're having is really more about laying, establishing the world than it is about the voice that is about to enter your head. Because that voice doesn't really start until the next scene. And then, boy, does it start. And the roller coaster is off and running. And, you know, the show begins with a trigger warning, which I do think of people who have struggle with or experienced or, you know, hear what we're talking about and are concerned about the subject matter. This might not be the show for you for those reasons. Yeah. You know,

I would also say that if you're having a little bit of trouble, obviously, if that's a concern, you know, you kind of like have to know what you're comfortable watching to get into that. But definitely, of all the trigger warnings I've seen on on shows recently, this is the one where I'm like, no shit. This is definitely like worth mentioning. I will say that if you can get into the end of the first episode and into the second episode, stick around because like a lot of great shows. And I don't know if physical is great yet. Like, I'm trying to figure it out for myself,

or at least I don't know, I mean, I don't know how I feel about it. But like a lot of great shows, physical adds a couple of elements in the end of the first episode, beginning of the second episode in the form of two characters who show up. One is Bunny, who is an aerobics instructor in San Diego, played by an actress named Della Saba, who I'd never heard of before,

who's dynamite, and her boyfriend, who is an aspiring filmmaker slash surfer slash, I think, pornographer, played by Lou Taylor Pucci, who I've always really enjoyed

when I've seen him and stuff, and they bring, like, a different energy to the show that I think is really, really welcome. You know, up until that point,

the entire ensemble or all the characters are kind of like in the same morass and shit hole that, like, Rose Burns characters in. And then you meet these two people who were kind of like, I am also like on the outs

with society, but like in a different way. And I have a different vibe. And I'm maybe a little bit funnier or maybe I have a different sensibility. And that like provides just a little bit of relief, not necessarily comic relief, but just a little bit of relief. Yeah, I agree. And there's also just these, and maybe this is where you see Annie Wiseman's impressive CV come into play. Like there's a little breaking bad to it. There's money issues and, you know, scams. Mild crime. Yeah, right. mild crime and there's a political subplot because Danny, Sheila's husband is beginning a political career, attempting to begin a political career. You've got Chris Ryan MVP Paul Sparks on the show. Oh yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. As a house of cards. As a kind of rapacious developer.

And I love, yeah. And Boardwalk Empire and Sweetbitter and like he's he's just become a that guy Hall of Famer. So yeah, when we talk about new shows on this podcast recently over the last year. And there have been plenty of things that we've fallen in love with. We have also occasionally voiced pilot fatigue. Like just the experience of, not just the wrestling that I was describing with this particular subject matter of like, okay, here we go again. Is this worth not just the investment of our time, but just our sort of emotional interest in building a new world and spending time in it? And what do you have to show me? And this is something that knocked me for a loop. It's,

It is different and it is exciting and it is not shocking just to shock. It is a quite literally a voice that I have not heard on television before. So I'm going to stick with it for this season for sure. Yeah. You know, I think there's a show coming on HBO in a couple of weeks called White Lotus, which comes from Mike White. And without giving anything away about that show at all, it's about a group of people who travel to a resort in Hawaii.

And I would call it deeply satirical or scathing, scathingly satirical about certain things. And it's a gear that we have not really seen a lot of in recent TV. I think for you and I, we've been talking a lot, obviously, about MCU and some of the Disney Plus shows over the last six, seven months. We had Mare, we had, It's a Sin, which was just a gorgeous piece of work, and was obviously, like, we felt so deeply connected to those characters and love them, quite frankly.

Like, we were so invested in them. It's a cool reminder. that you can make TV or you can tell stories in lots of different ways. And like this idea that you have to quote unquote enjoy spending time with people or like them is, you know, it's a fallacy. Like you can make good TV or make a good movie or tell a good story about people who hate themselves and maybe that you don't even like. You know what I mean? Like I think that it's challenging because there are certain tenets that I've started to assume because I know them about storytelling. I assume they're true for me.

Like, you know, writers are always like, well, what? does this character want in this scene? And I guess the character's desires their wants are pretty evident, but maybe the better question is, does the audience also care about that? And I think that that can sometimes come into play when it's about characters who's, you know, maybe the audience is like, this is not a good person or I don't know if I like this person. It's like, well, maybe you just don't care what they want. There's a really great line Rose Byrne has, I believe, and it's in the second episode and she's gone up to Lou Taylor Pucci's character and she's sort of asking him

to participate. It's basically a tradeoff. She's offering him a job on her husband's nascent campaign to start being his videographer and in return he has to let her back into his girlfriend's aerobics class because she's been kicked out and he's like confused and he's like, whose side are you on? And she's like, I'm on my side, which is a great quintessential 80's statement and is essentially like this is her revelation that she's like been

she's been asked to take sides all her life but she's never chosen herself and I think that's a really interesting idea and it is obviously like this is what she wants now her goal is to realize herself but it's it's a tough road

to go down. Also let's once and for all just throw in the ocean the adjective unlikeable for challenging female characters because I love her. I love Sheila. Like I do, you know, it is, she's, she can be a very tough hang and does terrible things and is unkind. And it's, you know, one of the great subplots of the show early on. And I imagine going forward is the relationship

with the character Greta played by Deirdrefriel, who is a mother at the preschool that Maya Sheila's daughter attends, and it's just the object of, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the shameing and hatred inside of Sheila's mind. Quite a scene over a synobon, you know, at one point. And, and, but leads to a moment of what, you know, the, whether it's the sitcom softened brain, or the way that some of us come to expect even subconsciously female characters to behave, a moment of shared intimacy or empathy. This isn't the third episode. I won't spoil it. And because of the way physical is set up, Sheila's inner voice says, I'm paraphrasing, do not fucking tell her a thing. And she does not do the nice thing. She does a half nice thing. And that's enough. That's a show with drama and with legs

and with enough perspective on its characters and on itself to know that we are along for the ride, even if it's not going where we expect it to go. So I, yeah, I'm impressed. It's exciting to talk about and hopefully you guys check it out and we can revisit in a couple episodes because it is going week to week, which, by the way, make it a comeback. Making a comeback. I know.

This weekly drops thing. And I think that other services are seeing the success that Disney's having with it and adopting it, even though it could also be argued that the way that a new episode of Loki is being received is not necessarily the same way a new episode of the way a mosquito coast or social park is being received.

I was glad I had multiple episodes of, this show to watch because I think if I had just ended at the first episode and it had been like see you next week I would be like probably not. Will you? Yeah, exactly. This was well, it's kind of like what Amazon did with the boys where they hook you in a, they've given it some thought and they're hooking you in the correct way. We talked about some TV shows today. Love it. Love TV. Love podcasting. So evil, I highly recommend physical, Andy and I both highly recommend. We'll be back on Thursday night, Friday morning talking about the finale of Top Chef. Incredible. And Loki, I'm sure. I will try to come up with some new takes about Loki.

Do you want to workshop some off the, off mic, off air? Sure. Thank you for listening. Gods of mischief. Do we need them? And we'll talk to you later this week. Bye, Baranskis. Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone.

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