The Watch - The Finale of ‘We Own This City’ With Showrunner George Pelecanos

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Chris and Andy are joined by George Pelecanos, the showrunner for ‘We Own This City,’ to talk about why he felt compelled to tell this story and return to the setting of Baltimore (9:34), Jon Bernthal’s performance as Wayne Jenkins (36:02), and the final episode of the series (46:29). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: George Pelecanos Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo, from the housewise to summer house at everything in between. We'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check.

you for infections in tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the interstate section of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run.

Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. Yes, sir. It's Indy Greenwald. Oh, oh, what's up? Andy, it's a very special episode of The Watch. It's Monday. I hope everybody's enjoying their long weekend, but we wanted to make sure that we got after this We Own the City series finale.

It's probably collectively me and Andy's favorite show of the year so far. And to celebrate it, we have George Pelicanos, one of the creators and showrunners, the showrunner of the series. And it's George's fourth time on the watch. He's one of our favorite writers. Obviously, it's done tremendous work

on the wire and the deuce, but is one of our favorite crime novelists over the last couple of decades. And the suite forever remains maybe one of our formative texts. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know, do you want to talk a little bit about the show? I mean, we talked to George for nearly an hour

and we hit almost every major facet of the show, including the finale. But if you wanted to share a couple of thoughts, let's go for it. Well, yeah, I think the thing about the show that I found so striking at the end was both how it managed to do two things at once. It returned us to not just a city, but a style of storytelling that we have been missing

since the wire, right? We were back on the streets of Baltimore. We're both sides of the crime ball are full in effect on the show and sometimes in some surprising ways. But also more than just the setting and some very familiar faces, Simon and Pelicanos's ability to tell a story as diffuse as this, as digressive as this, as wide as this, but with such a laser-sharp focus that you feel you are learning as much as possible about something that is still fundamentally unknowable.

I mean, like The Wire, we own The City as a show about systemic corruption, systemic problems. And it tells a story that has no solution with their trademark mix of kind of like hopelessness and joy somehow. These people are alive despite the circumstances, despite monstrous acts and despite monstrous context. I found, though, this series to be so rewarding because of its, I guess it's brevity. I mean, it's hard to say that it's brief, considering every episode of the six is packed. It's like 59 minutes.

I think we mentioned that it had the energy and the pace and the momentum of a tightly scripted British crime show that goes four or six episodes. Yes, absolutely. With now, and this is a new element, with some of the cinematic style of, as George talks about, his favorite 70s crime films, thanks to the director, Rinaldo Marcus Green. But it was so focused in its way, you know, that the things that the show built to, not in the penultimate episodes as it happened on the wire or in the fourth season as happened with the wire, but just after six episodes to see the arc of this. a story that was that forecast its ending for the most part, right, that was spoiled by Wikipedia that used court transcripts and wiretap transcripts for huge swaths of dialogue, still found a way to end in a way that felt really resonant and moving and complete. You know, I think I'm really struck by that.

It's, in some ways, it's very tight. It's like, it's got like a middleweight's, you know, agility and kind of like it's the way like dances around the ring, you could say, oh, this is just a very specific Baltimore story about these very specific cops. But I would say that I think that this is a sweeping epic about the ultimate degradation

of 21st century policing. And it's, I don't think that that's an overstatement to say that. I think that tracking Jenkins coming out of the academy throughout his time as a beat cop into these plainclosed units and to his ultimate end is, it's just been breathtaking.

And one of the things that I think you and I grapple with a lot when we read crime fiction, when we watch crime shows, when we watch crime films, is the tension between how much they romanticize the behavior that they're depicting and basically intoxicate you with the viewer, you, the viewer, with the behavior that you're watching. And I don't necessarily want to watch things that are just indictments of everybody all the time. You know, I think that there is a sort of compulsion to entertain no matter what when you're telling a story visually. That being said, I just don't know that I've ever had the intellectual and emotional experience of the crime story like I did with this, where I can, I think obviously, like in a very, very small community of people, like the Wayne Jenkins stuff has become memeworthy and how funny and electric and scary Bernthal's character is in this show and how amazing his performance has become, his is. But you are never not thinking to yourself, this guy's a fucking demon. Like, you are just, you are just. just the entire time. Just like, honestly, it's just the level of how appalled I was watching this. And honestly, like, the way it kind of has changed the way I think about, like, the systems around us and specifically law enforcement has just been pretty profound.

And so it was really exciting to talk to George about all of those things. Yeah, I mean, I love the fact that, I mean, we talked to George about it. but like I think John Bernthal's performance is one of the great TV performances of this century. I think it is electric, it is magnetic, it is all consuming,

it is physical, it's just a marvel. But I don't feel any like moral ambiguity. No. I mean, like, Jaws wasn't named after Roy Scheider's character. You know what I mean?

Like, Jaws was named after the shark. Yeah, and I don't think anybody got confused about who they were. I'm not saying this. You're not the strong man. No,

I understand why he's seductive, but I was not seduced. I was, understand why he is seductive to other cops around him as a character and in this show, but I didn't find myself, there's no moment of Henry Hill is taking Karen on this date, you know, or something like that. Like, it doesn't have that feel. Well, he goes on a date. He sure does. In the champagne room with a with an undersized stripper. So I mean, like, there's romance in the show. No, I think the other thing about it is that I was just like he has a

lovely time at that Harbor Hotel. The Interarbor Hotel. Yeah, a lot of good stuff happens there. Great meals out on the patio. This is a grown folks show. You know what I mean? Like in a way that I just appreciate so much. And I, the wire was as well, but Simon and Pelicanos are a little bit older now too and are looking at it with their own life experience and the experience of making TV in this city for so many years, as George talks about with us. and having a very confident hand on how to not just, you know, not just pick up like or have a dalliance with heavy hitting issues or important civic concerns.

Like that's what fuels their storytelling. And they go, they approach this material absolutely like with open eyes and open hearts and open ears. It does not feel didactic in any way. but it feels responsible, you know, which is a complicated word to use when you're talking about art that is also, as we're referring to

with the Wayne Jenkins performed character, like this is a very entertaining show. But it just, it feels it feels confident and responsible and thoughtful and in control in a way that I really, really admire and appreciate. And, you know, you're referring to the difference, when you're talking about the similarities between this

and a tightly-paced British procedural types of shows that you and I both with love and every year there's like at least one or two that pops enough for us to talk about on the podcast. One of the things that makes those shows ultimately really, really great, I think, is just the craft. Like the people who make those shows and make them well know how to write teleplays. You know what I mean? And know how to be efficient with it in the same way our favorite novelists do. This isn't exactly that because when given the choice to showboat or, you know, bring the house down with like a third act, whatever,

these guys went to the courthouse transcripts or the proffer session transcripts. You know, they never steer things towards drama, even though they are working as television writers, you know. And in the wrong hands, that could be disastrous. It would be disastrous. And it's just not what it is. They're just so good at what they do at this point.

And I just, I feel like the show, this show was kind of a gift. We are in good hands with George Pelicanos. So, Andy, let's get into our interview with the, creator and co-creator and showrunner of We Own This City, George Pelicanos. I'm just overjoyed and thrilled to be joined by one of our favorite writers, one of our favorite guests, making his, I believe, fourth appearance on the podcast. One more, and he gets the five-timer smoking jacket, who is joining us today in his capacity

as one of the co-creators and the showrunner of our favorite show of the year, HBO's we own this city. George Pelicanos, welcome back to the watch. Thank you. It's good to see you guys. George, you know, Andy and I adore this show. This has really been kind of a thrill for us to talk about it over the last couple of weeks. Even when I start talking about it, I can feel hints of my Philadelphia accent coming out. So rich is that Northeast Corridor accent work in this show.

But let's start at the beginning. You know, you obviously worked on the wire. The wire ended in 2008. And the action in We Own the City kind of picks up essentially where The previous show ends, but there's been this decade-plus time away from the streets of Baltimore. So I was curious, what brought you and David back to this, to the streets of Baltimore? There was more to say. And we felt like, you know, we always ask each other, why are we going to do this?

Because even though it's six episodes and it goes by in a flash, we worked on it for three years. You know, that's a long time out of your life to do something that's inconsequential, you know. So for David, it was it was the continued failure of the drug war. And as always, we come at it from kind of two different perspectives. He's more of a macro guy. And I'm a little bit more of a micro guy. And I like to dig into the individual characters and that sort of thing. But in terms of thematically, you know, I felt like the thing to discuss beyond the drug war was that

you know, what is police corruption? And the obvious thing is taking money, you know, that sort of thing. Complicating drugs and reselling an island street. And those are bad things. But to me, the corruption is, let me just say, I live in a place. I live in Silver Spring, Maryland, which is in a very wealthy county. but it's a divided county, and I live on the other side where mostly minorities are. And I see all the time young people being pulled over

and sitting on the curb and sometimes in the middle of winter after midnight for hours while we wait for the drug dogs to come. And it's just harassment, you know. And to me that that's a bigger corruption because I've been seeing it for years and it's personal

because I raised two black sons and a Latino daughter, and they'd continually been harassed by the police around here. So I wanted to look at that too, and that's why so much of the stories in this, so many of the stories in this show are about, you know, what happens when somebody gets pulled over and they get a few hundred dollars taken out of their glove box?

And whether it's drug money or just a paycheck money, what happens to their lives after that? They got locked up for a couple days. You know, it's an important story to tell. And you used, I know, one of your favorite actors to work with Thatiest Street to tell some of that story so well in the series, you know, where it's not just, well, for the cops, for Herschel and for Jenkins, some money from a glove box is some crabs and some top shelf liquor for one night. But for a working person who had his entire paycheck taken, there is a cascading. series of devastating consequences with no safety net, no backstop for that. That's right.

That's why that whole threat is in there with that is and his car, which I know you're going to get to it, so I might as well tell you. That's an Impala SS-94, and that car is sitting in my garage right now. Of course it is. It's incredible that maybe this is the, I'm excited to have you on for the fourth time, but the danger is you know us as well as we know you now. So yes, I was going to go there. I was going to razz you for the car.

But more specifically, in the broader context of Justin Fenton's book was published about the true story behind the series, you and David became interested, became attached. I was curious, though, about the decision for this to be your first solo gig as showrunner. You and David co-created it. He obviously was very involved, produced, wrote the finale. But this was your rodeo. Well, let me correct that first because I was also a showrunner on the doze. That's right. But you were technically co-show runners on that, or is that just semantics at this point? We were on both shows. I mean, David's my partner, and we split it down the middle.

But I got asked first to do this by HBO, and then I called, I said, I'll do it if, you know, I can bring in my old team from the wire, including David and Nina Noble. I didn't think I could do it without them, meaning they certainly brought a lot to it. She doesn't get enough credit. You know, she's, and, and it was just good karma. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I mean, I was, I was a showrunner on this, and you've done it. You know what that entails? It's a complete commitment to, you know, your whole life is, it's 12, 14 hours a day.

every single day. And it's free production, it's production, it's post-production. You know, it was great. I loved it because coming back to Baltimore, we were working with crew that we worked with 20 years ago. And for David and Nina, it's closer to 30 because a lot of these people worked on homicide and the corner. And what was really gratifying there is we had people who wandered on to set

on the wire. There were teenagers, and they didn't want to leave. You know, they were just curious and we eventually put them on as PAs. And now they're running departments. You know, that doesn't get talked about enough because how you impact people's lives when you run it, when you have these shows, right? Especially locally, you see it because it's our home. And you see people grow up and now they're middle-aged people with families and the film business has afforded them the opportunity to have a career and also raise their families like that. that too. So that's pretty cool, man. That's incredible.

And though, I guess the connection to the early question was just that I assumed that you were the sole show runner of this because of the car, because of that moment, because I can't, I couldn't imagine David ever allowing that much detail of a car to be in one of his shows. So maybe you guys worked it out. When it comes to cars and things like that, he lets me, he doesn't question anything that I. And, you know, he knows too well. And, and, you know, I have my son's with me on the show and one of my sons is a um is an ad and the other ones in the art department so they conspire with me on all this stuff and we make sure that we get the right cars into the shots do we get to ask what david simon drives oh man he's the most uncar guy yeah he's got a he's

got a lexas ub like the fender is falling off and it's just scrapes all over i'm like dude you know you've got $100 million or whatever you got just to go buy a car like take that roll of cash in your pocket and start putting the dollars off he doesn't care George this is a different

kind of cop than the ones we follow in the wire and they've been militarized they've figured out how to game the system and how to write reports and how to fend off litigation and they're obviously they're addicted to overtime were these kinds of playing clothes units rolling around the time

of Bunk and McNulty and why did they get introduced to this police force? Yeah, they were around and they, you know, every city has them. We have them here in D.C. to jump out boys and they come, they roll out and then they

come out of their cars and they put everybody up against the wall. And what you see in the show is they arrest everybody, you know, not just the guys who have the drugs in their pockets. And, you know, then they can get, get the overtime pay for showing up in court and all these things that it's it's it's it's it incentivizes mass arrest so they've always been around um the difference is that what would if you

go back to the wire remember there was a scene where perkin carver or they're on a raid and they take a little money right if you remember that and and now um but that and that was the worst thing they did. You know, they, they would rough up some people and things, things of that nature. We saw all that, but it's, it's magnified a hundred times now in 20 years. Again, these guys aren't just stealing money. They're selling drugs on the street. And they're built in the city for hundreds of thousands of dollars in overtime every year for each guy, you know, it's become, you know, it's just become rampant. And that, and that made it, that further legitimized us going back and looking at it because the guys who were trained back then and worked in playing clothes and so on

are now running departments and squads. And they were trained a certain way. You see it with Jenkins when he comes out of the academy. And that's a real thing. At the academy, they try to do a good job of indoctrinating these guys about, you know, sensitivity training, racial dynamics, all that stuff. and then they put him with a sergeant who says Forget all that shit

I'm going to show you how to police and the guy having Treat Williams in there as Graveller was you know like a it was delivered because this is a guy who was in Prince of the City and one of our favorite films and in that film

the IED says to him did you guys take drugs too and he was like no you know like it's an affront to him to think that any cop would take drugs. Yeah, we took a little money. And then to see how far it's come where they're reselling drugs back out on the street. And that was why we put Tree Williams in that role. He came in for essentially a cameo.

We shot him out in one day. But it was really worth it. He's like the cup of espresso after dinner. He comes in roaring off the bench just for those two scenes. And he's just on fire. It just electrifies the show. George, one of the hallmarks of your books since the beginning, you know, because we love them and have read them all. And also from David's work has been always kind of articulating an idea that there are, well, articulating nuance first and foremost.

But that there are people in the police force who are generally decent people trying to do decent work, even if they are up against a corrupt system or they are party to a corrupt system. That was present in the wire as well. Since the wire went off the air, I think our collective perception of the police and the role in American lives has changed significantly, particularly for those of us who have not lived in the shadow of Jump Out Boys and have lived relatively privileged existence unaware of the level of harassment. Knowing all of this, when you went back into a story about police, how did you navigate that even finer line now? Because one of the things that is so striking about the show is that there are cops like Sean Souter. who, you know, is proud of the work he is doing as a homicide police, is doing the best that he can, despite some, you know, obviously it becomes the louder. It's a long shadow, his past casts. But you are always attempting, I think, to articulate that nuance.

And I'm wondering what it was like to do that in a show that was going to air in 2022. There are very few characters in the show that aren't real people, you know, based on real people. Steele is the only one who's a composite, the DOJ investigative. But somebody like Costopoulos, for example, who, by the way, I didn't make him Greek, he was Greek. He's a good guy. I got to cross that off my questions then. We were talking the other day about how that case stop scene with Herschel and Jenkins is a lot like when they're sending Karen down to get more for the fur coats and good fellas. It's like, keep going. Keep going.

And it's like, Kay Stop, don't get out of the car. Don't leave your phone. Yeah, he played that well I mean that that actually happened They they took them into it was an alley They took them into that we couldn't shoot in But one cold night And they and they said You know here's a what if like what if

Because Jenkins was really grooming this guy And he said we don't do that If you have a bad badge on your chest We don't do that shit And then he got reassigned right after that They bumped them out of the unit The guy who

unwittingly, you know, gave them the tracker in the first couple of episodes, he was, they figured him out for being a straight arrow too. And they wouldn't let him hang around when they were doing their dirt. And the guy that she goes to visit out at Lincoln Park

who's been banished out there, that happened also. You know, like, these guys that actually stood tall and complained, they either got reassigned or they got they got put out the pasture. But there was a lot of, there was a lot of good cops that were complaining about this.

But it went unheeded. As you, as you can see, one of the reasons that these guys were operated with impunity was they were actually doing a good job on one hand. They were getting guns and drugs off the street. And this was in a time when post-Freddie Gray, when a lot of cops stopped getting out of their cars. So it was important for the department to have units like this that were producing.

And they knew it. They knew that they, meaning the GTF guys, they knew that as long as they did A, they could do B as well and get away with it. The choice to depict some of the Freddie Gray stuff the way he did was very interesting to me, that a lot of that, the aftermath of the Freddie Gray verdict is played through Jenkins's eyes. and it's a moment, interestingly, for him to be a team player, right? Like, you see the respect that the other cops have for him for grabbing his gear, jumping in a van, providing food and everything. And then you played it so subtly also with the reaction shots to some African-American cops

who are seeing, you know, seeing this quite differently, perhaps, than the way he is as just like a binary, like them against us. Yeah, I think that they were, the black cops were probably much more, conflicted about what was happening. And that happens in every, you know, my book Hard Revolution was all about strange as a young man trying to police his own people during 68 riots. It's fair to say that, and it's not hyperbole to say, that Jenkins acted heroically during the uprising in many, many ways. But then that night, he went and looted a right-aid drugstore for proxy. Yeah. You know what I mean? He shows up and washes up on steps door.

the bail bondsman the next morning and they sell the drugs. So this guy was a very complicated guy. But one thing that since you brought it up that was fortuitous for us was that, you know, if this squad had been all white guys, then it would have been a different show. But it wasn't. It was a few white guys and actually it was more balanced on black police officers, maybe, you know, five to three or something like that. That was a gift to us because then we didn't have to deal with the idea that,

here's a bunch of white cops who were assholes. It's not about that. It's about, you know, blue versus the citizenry, what it's become. And again, we stuck to the reality of it, which was fortunate. Yeah, and it's, you know, you talked about how, you know, this show tracks Jenkins from, like, essentially his, first days on walking the beat to his his downfall as part of GTTF. And then in between, you see guys like Ram and Gondo coming in who are like, for lack of a better term, kind of like

gangsters. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, they're, they're much more connected to the streets. I think they look at being in the Gun Trace Task Force as a means to an end. And there's even conversations, that conversation they have in the car where he's like, when it ends, it ends. I mean, that's how that's how Avon and Stringer used to talk to each other, you know? And I thought it was and I thought it was kind of fascinating that you've got these two cops who aren't even putting up the pretense of protecting and serving.

They're not even kind of like gesturing towards any kind of original mission of the job that they're doing. Yeah, and by the way, a lot of that dialogue was right straight off the wiretap verbatim. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, which made it easy for me. I wanted to include it. The nice thing about it from a dramatic standpoint is that all these cops had different personalities. You're right.

Raymond Gondo were nihilists, basically. They just, they knew what was going to happen, and they just kept driving towards that wall. They didn't care. Ward was a guy with a conscience, and he really did throw $20,000 away in the woods before he went home that money because he didn't want to take it into his house. And then Jenkins was a family man. He would leave a raid or a crime scene to go help his kid out or go to a football game or something like that. He also had women all over the city.

The dude was very complicated. And I don't think to this day, you guys have seen all the episodes. He's bewildered at the end. He still doesn't understand the import of what he did, and he's in denial of it. Herschel as well. Both of those guys were the two cops who didn't talk to the FBI. They got the longest sentences. And from jail, they're still, from prison, they're still protesting their convictions and saying that they were innocent.

They continue to. I know I'm in a clear space in a moment for Chris to talk about John Bernthal with you directly, I think it's really all he wants to talk about. But staying with this idea about Wayne Jenkins, the actual person then also, as depicted on your show, there's a moment in the finale that I kind of can't get over. I've been thinking about ever since I watched it, which is the scene where he's with two of the other cops

and they're getting drinks, they're at the strip club, and he's just saying that he's not a dirty cop. And the other guys are looking at him, like, are you insane? And he's insisting that he's a good person, you know? And it just reminded me of this moment that we're living in where on the right and the American right, the worst thing in the world is to be called a racist. You don't examine your behavior,

you don't have any empathy or consideration of where this is deriving from. It's just that how dare you besmirch me because I am a good person and the resentment and grievance and just, you know, the wall that goes around anyone who is accused from the outside of anything. It was such a, it's a powerful scene in your show

and speak so much about the core of this very complicated guy. one of my favorite scenes is after they robbed the car wash and he's in the car with Sean Suter at the end at the end of the episode. And he says he's trying to talk Sean and taking the money. And he says, you know, why shouldn't we first said he doesn't give two fucks about us? And he said, I can't, you know, folded flag is not going to feed my babies. And it's his rationalization for it. And in a way, it makes sense. I mean, I'm kind of proud of the fact that we let these cops make their case.

Ersel does the same thing in the bar with Nicole Steele. He says, you know, yeah, I got complaints. Show me a cop that doesn't have complaints. I'll show you a cop it doesn't get out of his car. Yeah. And then the last scene where we go back to the academy and he's talking to the, and it's all the guys in there that we've seen. That was David wrote that.

I didn't know he was going to write it. It wasn't something we beat out in the writer's room. He just, you know, delivered it to me. And I think it's really extraordinary. I hope he doesn't listen to this because I don't want to know that, you know, I'm giving him all this praise. But you knocked his Lexus, so that's okay. Yeah, I did put his Lexus down.

That shit wagon, he's got to do something about that. but it really it worked and you don't know you don't know if something like that's going to work when you write it you have to film it and and i think it really worked because that's that was all in in jenkins's head he's these guys still look at him heroically when in fact they all turned on i mean there was there was there was a critic who said um was was unsatisfied because the cops they said they started talking as soon as they got in the proper sessions with the FBI. And that's what happened. It's part of the story. They all, they all turned on each other. They sang. Yeah. And it's interesting because they were thick as thieves, you know, like when they were together,

brothers in blue, but as soon as they put the bracelets on them, they started talking. My impression from your show is that the cushiest job, maybe on the whole East Coast for a couple years was being one of these guys' defense attorneys. They don't ever talk. You could do your headspace meditation app while these guys just sang the entire symphony for the FBI. I think Ray was the one who's like, why am I paying you $500 an hour? I want to get to Bernthal, but, you know, first I wanted to ask you a quick question about one of the formal quirks, not quirk, one of the choices you guys made while making the show,

which is this, I don't know, like almost this. It's like this intuitive kind of wandering timeline, the way that you treat chronology in this show and how it jumps from year to year, from incident to incident, and often unites these moments more thematically than narratively. So it's like it's important to understand Jenkins, but at the same time, you know, some of it's coming out of interviews with other characters, some of it's coming out of these documents that you kind of reference on the screen. I understand what it did to me as a viewer, and I understand the cumulative effect it had on my understanding of this story, and I thought it was profound, honestly.

Can you tell us a little bit, though, about how you approach the timeline, the chronology, and the narrative of this show? I think my recollection is that, you know, we wrote the pilot together. I'll call it the pilot, its first episode. And the idea was that it was going to be chronological from that on. or we would go back and it would be chronological. But we made the decision because if it had, okay, first of all, this is a national story. It just a lot of people would know watching this, what, how it was going to end,

that these guys were going to get caught and sent up to prison. We didn't want to train the audience to watch that show because it's not about, you know, it's not like Shield. Shield's a great show. But this isn't really a show about corrupt cops. It's about the why of it. How does it happen? And the only way that we could show that is by jumping around in time effectively.

And by taking away that element from the viewer, like, oh, this is a thriller. I want to see how they get caught. And putting in the forefront of it is how did the department evolve? what happened within the department to allow the squad to operate. It wasn't easy. I mean, it was the most challenging thing we've probably ever done. In addition to having to stick to the facts and not get off of that track. And the show, even though it was written that way, the show really got made in the editing room.

Yeah. Like, we made a lot of changes in the editing room. And I think it was, we posed for this show was about four months for six episodes, which is a long time. But that's where David and I, and Nina was there too, that's where David and I had the most intense discussions about what we were going to use, where it was going to go. And it was really difficult.

And I have to also include HBO, and I'm not blowing smoke up HBO skirt, but they gave us some really, that's where their notes were really coming from is they kept pushing us to make it more palatable, the timeline. And their notes were good. And David came up with the run sheets for Jenkins,

which was effective, I thought. We're working with an effects house. We finally figured out how to put that over. Yeah. It was a lot. It was a lot, you know. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action,

All the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools.

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply.

This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. So you're saying with Hilton Honors, I can use points for, free night's day anywhere? Anywhere.

What about fancy places like the canopy in Paris? Yeah. Hilton honors, baby. Or relaxing sanctuaries? Like the Conrad in Toulomb? Hilton honors baby. What about the five-star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives? Are you going to do this for all 9,000 properties?

When you want points that can take you anywhere, any time, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Book your spring break now. Should we pivot to this lead performance that you've coaxed out? because. So, George, I just have to mention that I had Jamie Hector on a couple of weeks ago after episode three. And I asked him what it was like working with Bernthal specifically in the car wash scene,

but just in general. And he was very, very complimentary. And he was like, he was always moving. And I got this impression of this guy who almost must have been a force of nature on set because he's such a force of nature on the show. That's not as much of a question as much as it is. I think it's one of the most incredible performances I've seen on TV in recent memory.

Did he show up with Wayne Jenkins in his head and doing his voice? And was it just fully formed? What was the process like working with John? Well, he was always working. So, you know, he came early to Baltimore and he started making relationships with the police. We had this guy, Dre on set that was, he was in the GTTF. and he looked up to Jenkins and because of what

because of what happened and with Jenkins and all them his career sort of got derailed a little bit because they broke up you know they killed the unit and and Dre but Dre is a diehard you know cop

them blue line guy he's got a show called the Razorbacks which is the unit these guys that are all big tough cops right and he made a relationship with him and his friends and a lot of those guys end up in the show Dre's in it but also the guy at the car wash who has that exchange with Jenkins

that guy's a cop the guy who he's riding with when he beats shit out of this this guy on the stoop that guy's a cop we used a lot of active duty cops in this show and and

so Jenkins you know I mean John was always working beyond what we offered him and we always offer you know we'll put you in contact with the police and do some ride-alongs that kind of thing he didn't he didn't really take us up on it he did all this stuff on his own he was super prepared um and he brought stuff little things to the scenes that honestly i didn't know about i mean i remember one day and he was testifying in court and he came wearing a vest and said the police on it. And somebody came to set and said, no, no, that would

never, they would never wear that, you know, in court. And we got to get costumes, you know, like calling out for the costume department like somebody had messed up. And John pulls a Polaroid out of his vest of Jenkins wearing that very vest in court. He was testified. Like, he knew and we didn't know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. His physicality is, just so incredible. I mean, the name of the show is we own the city and he embodies it. The width of his walk, you know, the way he wears those Ravens

shirts, like he just he is someone in a way of his dressboarding. I love when he's going to Roger Rabbit out in the street. Oh my God. But even like the way he litters, like the way he just like throws bottles around like he just doesn't give his shit. Exactly. He's like, I don't know, fuck,

he throws that bottle before he goes in the bail bondsman's office. You hear her break? It's like, he's a cop. You know what I mean? there's nothing I can't do. And that was his, I mean, John, John's not method in the sense that you couldn't talk to him when after you yelled cut. Like, it's not like he couldn't approach him.

But he was ready, and he had ideas, and he wanted to do things certain ways that a lot of showrunners don't like, but I like it if it's coming from a place of knowledge. you know what I mean and that's where he was coming from he he

his suggestion I didn't let him do everything but his suggestions were almost always good and we used a lot of his ad libs which are hilarious is yeser was yeser a Bernthal original yeah and you know when he calls a guy

dumb dumb that like one of the guys they arrest you know said that sound they're dumb dumb like turns out Jenkins used to call guys dumb dumb I didn't know that he was asking a lot he was asking these cops a lot of questions about Jenkins and things like,

did he like to drive, you know, and Jenkins always wanted to drive the car. So things of that nature. He brought a lot, he brought a lot to it. And John's from D.C., so we had a, we struck up a friendship pretty quickly. I know some of the people he knows. And John was a guy who hung out on the other side of town growing up and got into a bunch of trouble.

by his own ambition. And he's just a, he's got a lot of life experience, put it that way. He's a genuine tough guy, too. Like, you know, the nose that looks broken. Yeah. Yeah. See, we always figured that's a barrier for entry with us and him, but we are also, the three of us are all Quaker school boys, too.

So I feel like we could probably bond over that, even if he ran from it in the other direction. So, George, it wasn't just the car that made me feel your touch on the show. And this might just be total projection. so feel free to talk me out of it. But it's not as if you and David haven't worked with incredible actors before. I mean, even just on the wire. I mean, Wood Harris and Idrisel, Jordan was there. I mean, Wendell Pierce, through the deuce with Franco and Jalenhall,

I mean, you've worked with great actors before. You've also worked with great directors before who suited the material brilliantly. But there was something about this piece, and maybe it's because it was, you know, a limited with the performance of John at the center of it, and then the direction of Rinaldo Marcus Green, throughout that I thought just elevated the cinematic language of this to a degree that was really striking, really wonderful as a viewer. But I always think of that, but I attributed that subconsciously, I think to you, because I know from your writing and from conversations, just

your love of great cinema and filmmaking in a way, not to discredit David in any way, who has made some of the best TV of our lifetime, but has always seemed to, at least from the outside, approach it from a more journalistic perspective than a cinematic perspective. Yeah, I think I put it this way I was very happy to see that that's what Ray was doing and we did talk about it

I encouraged it but I didn't I didn't say I want you to do it this way we did want it to look different than the wire which was a much more documentary style I think than cinematic but Ray Greene's from the beginning said I want this to look like a movie and there was the advantage of

we had them for all the episodes so it was one vision wasn't we weren't parachuting directors in and out and Erono Orbach who shot the dues for us thinks the same way they collaborated

and I really didn't have to I didn't have to step in much I was just more of a cheerleader like yeah I love that I love the way this is looking and we chose Ray I had seen monsters and men and I thought it was sort of a new

nuance take on this kind of material. I didn't see King Richard. It wasn't available for me to see at the time that we hired Ray. But it was a plus that he had worked with John, and they had a pretty strong relationship that helped us as well. And Ray was, so Ray's kind of a quiet guy. He doesn't, he's quiet on set, but you, you have to, I mean, I'm a firm believer in the writer-producers being there every day on set.

And we were watching, but we, you know, we skipped our distance for most part because he was getting what we wanted. And he actually, a lot of writers aren't really great in the editing room, but he gave us, you know, the director gets first edit on all the episodes, and he delivered us some pretty clean episodes from the editing room as well. So I was super happy. He's also a nice person,

which is really helpful for me is how you treat the crew. It's really important. You know, that camera he has, it's like another jump-out boy. Like it's always running behind them. It's running into these, through these doors, it's patrolling, it's looking under cars.

I just thought it gave the series such a visceral feel and it kind of did bring almost an updated new take on Prince of the City, on Serpico on this very urban cop drama. I thought that that was incredible. I was wondering whether or not that you guys had, whether you had like a common cinematic language of movies that you liked, shots that you liked,

like feels that you liked, camera moves that you liked together. He's from New York, and my favorite movies are the New York 70s, of 70s films Sidney Lomet, of course, but also French Connection, 7-ups across 110th Street.

He knew all those films. We talked about it, and it wasn't not at length, we didn't screen films or anything like that together, but he knew the references. And there wasn't a lot of trickery.

I have a pet peeve about shots that are either shooting up, into the air or you got to put the camera on top of the building and you're looking down at everybody and i'm always thinking like well whose point of view is that right that suggests to me that somebody's up on top of that building like a sniper or something like that like don't do it you know what i mean and he he found a way to um for the camera to tell the story in an organic way we have to we're naming individual names who contributed to this i think we have to talk about Wunmi Mosaco too, because you mentioned how Nicole, her character, was the only composite of all the people on the screen.

After finishing the series, I was even more impressed by her performance and just thinking about how challenging it was in a lot of ways because she had to do a lot of expositional lifting with the scenes that she was in. But she also, with her eyes and her reaction shots, had to take in so much of the shit, basically, and have it change her, having gone through it in a way that was similar. to what the audience went through, learning about things and experiencing them throughout. And I thought her performance was so noteworthy, not just because of her charisma

and her ability and her strength, but her decision-making. Like, I kept talking about, I think you heard of say this, the way that she smiles in the first episode, you know, there's a genuine warmth to her and a full person

behind all of it that is just evident was really striking. And I think, having now seen the whole series, it was essential to the viewing experience. I have to admit it's going to make me sound stupid, but I didn't really appreciate her until we got in the editing room and saw these scenes over and over again.

And like you say, the subtle reactions and the way her eyes would, when she's talking to Dominic, the head of the union, the police union, her eyes sort of kind of like begin to cloud over. And the anger builds, but it never boils over. she had, I would say, the hardest role because it is just a lot of listening. And she did a great job. Plus, she has a very, very British accent, and it never once slipped. We didn't have to loop her dialogue or anything. That was unreal. I mean, even the best slip sometimes.

And you could tell she didn't. I felt like she got to have the sister line to get on with it, motherfucker. it's your turn motherfucker. Let's talk about the Sean Suter part of it because it hangs over this series.

It's interesting. I watch this series initially not knowing as much about Souter as I obviously should have and in talking to Jamie you know, did a lot of research

into it. This is a very knowing show. It knows every nook and cranny. You leave some ambiguity about what happened to Suter. Obviously there is

some ambiguity about what happened to Souter's been a documentary Sanya Sown made about this case. How did you, what kind of approach did you take especially to those final moments of Souter's character? Because there is a degree of mystery about it. Yeah, it's a good question. First of all, we did a lot of research beyond what was in the book and what was reported in the newspaper and David used his relationships with police officers who were, you know, homicide detectives who were involved in investigating his death internally. And we know some things that the public doesn't know. Okay, that's all I'll say there. But to be respectful to the family, we've made the decision to not show anything that, that, that's, that, you know, that,

wasn't actually seen. We didn't deduce things and then just decide to shoot it that way. The way we decided to shoot it was there was a camera on one of the houses on that street where he died. And we have the recording of what the camera saw. So we shot that only, but when he disappears into that lot. And by the way, we shot it in the exact location where he was killed, which was very, it was a triggering thing for our crew. And the camera saw him pacing back and forth behind his van before he went in there.

Now, if you know from where he is from his point of view, that's an open view into that lot. If somebody was there, if somebody was there, they would have seen him standing there pacing back and forth. A police officer, obviously, is one of the big things that leads us to believe that, there was nobody there. Also, his partner that day, Bomenka, it only took him eight seconds from the time the gunshots went off to him finding Sean shot in that lot. There was nobody there.

Also, there was gun smoke covered around him. Had there been somebody struggling with him and shot him, that gun smoke would have been dissipated by the action of the guy running away. There's a lot of, there's a lot of things that lead us to believe almost 100% that he committed suicide. But we only wanted to show what we know. When I said almost 100%, we only wanted to show what we knew 100%. Yeah.

How does that inform Jamie's performance, you think? I mean, because he's got to know, right, as an actor. I mean, I suppose he can make a choice. but when you're playing that on the day of and when you're talking to him about what this guy is going through I guess it's possible for an actor to say

this is still a mystery and that but like I was wondering about the absolutes that have to happen on set with an actor versus the absolutes of what you might depict on screen yeah we well okay so you take a show like the wire we were writing as we were shooting and the actors didn't know

what was going to happen until the script dropped that week and we never told them we didn't tell Idris Elba that he was going to be killed until that script dropped episode 311 in third season which effectively is like

you're giving the actor his pink slip yeah and the reason we didn't we didn't tell it is because exactly what you just said is we didn't want the the actor to telegraph his performance

knowing that he was going to die we didn't have that luxury with this Jamie knew exactly what was going to happen and it was in the news and there was some interesting moments there's a there's a scene where he is on a call for a homicide scene and he goes into this lot

and the lot was very similar in dimension to the lot that he would eventually be killed in and I went and Jamie and I both saw it and there's just a little moment there at the end before he walks out of the lot that he kind of looks around he's foreshadowing his own death yeah

I mean it's an amazing performance it's so still it's so quiet but it's there's so much underneath the tip of the iceberg there yeah he's he's really good man and you needed a guy who who did a lot of acting with his eyes and that and james that guy so george with this you know as you said this is this is

over three years of work and commitment for a truly tremendous result but you know you're talking to us so you know we're going to have to do it inevitably pivot and ask what else is coming from you in the future and if we basically i'll just ask selfishly we've had some incredible work from you on on the small screen but we still want a pelicano's detective show we will keep saying this every week we're we're to keep asking for it and wondering where you are with that. You know, from your mouth to God's ears, right? Or Casey Boyce's ears depending. Yeah, Casey's listening.

I mean, I have an overall deal at HBO. I would happily place sending my books there for, and I still want to do Derek Strange. Yeah, that's the one, right? Yeah. But right now, I'm writing an adaptation of a John D. McDonald's book called The Last One Left. with Megan Abbott. Oh, yes, that just got announced. I was going to ask you about that.

We love Megan, too. Yeah, she's great. And we're both writing that together, and hopefully that'll go. We've written about half of it now. We know where we're going. For the big screen, I did adapt the first Travis McGee novel,

The Deep Blue Goodbye for Fox. And that apparently is going also. I mean, I've been waiting for Travis for a long time, and I'm so happy that it came to you. Honestly, like this isn't just like publicist bullshit. Like I read that book 40 years ago in my, in the class that inspired me to become a crime fiction novelist. And 40 years ago when I was, you know, 20 years old or 21, whatever it was, I said, I want to make, I want to make this movie someday, you know, having never done anything. I hadn't written any books, any screenplays.

And I finally got the opportunity. Amy Robinson came to me a couple of years ago. She had read that I had noted that book as an important book in my development, and she had the rights. And they've been trying to make it for 20 years. And Mangold was DiCaprio, Christian Bale. These were all people who were floating around it over time. Right. I mean, they're ready to roll Christian Bale towards ACO, and it collapsed the project.

But those were all contemporary. All those scripts were contemporary. And I said to Amy, I'll do it, but on one condition, it has to be period. right because the character doesn't make sense in contemporary times and I think I nailed it man I mean I think it's yes I love it I mean I love also that it's period because the thing when I tell people and I had a similar thing 20 years ago where I got off eBay I got the box of all of them and there's like 20 however many Travis McGee books and I read them all chronologically and to read those books is a snap a moving picture snapshot of America over 20 tumultuous years and he's of the time in the 60s. And then that last book, Lonely Silver Rain, the world is harsher, but they're more drugs, it's more violent, the environment's been destroyed. Florida's different. And he's confused in it, right? And that transition is so powerful as a reader that I love, I mean, I love knowing that it's in the

hands of someone who also gets that. Yeah, I often wonder if McDonald didn't know he was going to die. He went up to, I think, Pittsburgh to get a hard operation and he died on the table, I believe. He wasn't that old, but it's the perfect ending to that series. So yeah, there's that. I'm working. We know you're always working. We never have doubt about that. And are there books on the horizon as well? Or you've been busy? I've been busy. I'm going to keep doing this until I age out of it, which probably won't be long from now. And then the plan is to continue writing books until my death. Well, it's good to have it all mapped out. George, thank you so much for joining us for the fourth time.

We can't wait for the fifth. And thank you so much for this show. It's just absolutely incredible. Yeah, congratulations on it. Thanks a lot. I love what you guys are doing, man. I wanted to be on the show. So thank you.

Well, also, George, like, this is a moment. Sorry, Chris. I know we're done, but we have to revisit just that, like, I think you referred to Chris as the little guy with the camels, which we want to call him now from, I'm going to call him that from Yeah, we can let the, okay, so just to set the scene, we have now three or four times told an anecdote about you from our perspective. I don't know if we've ever given you the floor, and I think you've earned it. Okay, thank you. You guys are stuck on this thing. I was doing a book for a 20 years ago.

I came through, was it, was it L.A. or San Francisco? It was New York. It was the lower Manhattan, Burns. It was not. It was lower, I think. It was like the 20th. It was New York. It was the 3rd. It was like Chelsea. Okay. All right. So who's remembering. First of all, I didn't say the little guy. I said the guy who smoked camels. There you go. But Chris called me grandpa. That's what really got me. No. That was not what happened.

And I am. Hey, by the way, I'm a grandpa now. I was 42 years old there. Something like that. Anyways. So back then, back then when you did a book tour, you did like, in 30 days, you did like 28 cities. So every day I'd get up. Usually I have to get up at like five and catch a plane to somewhere else. And you guys came in.

I knew who you were, but I didn't know you guys. You wanted to go out and drink and watch basketball. I mean, to be clear, you knew who we were because of our energy. Yeah. We were nothing. We had not done anything. We were just super fans, but you could tell we were in Pelicanos parlance. We were still in the Nick Stefano stage of our development.

And you were late book Derek Strange. Okay. We get that now. But at the time, we didn't. This was meant to be, man. The tournament is on. It's Mark Madden's. I know.

All I wanted to do was go home and drink a beer and watch a game. So that I could get up and because when you're on a tour like that, one night of the Bouchery can sabotage the entire book tour. And I didn't know you guys well enough to know. Like, you're going to go to a bar. You're going to start buying me shots. It's hard to turn them down. Look at a note. Yes.

we are speaking to you now safely from a pronounced one beer while watching TV stage of life. I was shaking my head because I was like shots were light work back then. He would have been lucky to get off his shots. We would have been running the Princeton offense by the end of the night.

You know what I mean? You were nice to us, I think, is our takeaway. It was in no way mockery. We were like, that guy's got to figure it out. And we just, we're not there. yet. And we're still not there, but you're still setting, you're setting a course for us, which we respect. All right. We're square now. I'm glad we gave you your, uh, your opportunity for rebuttal. George Pelicados, thank you so much for doing the watchman. All right. Thanks a lot, guys. Appreciate it. Thanks, George. Hope to talk to you again soon. Take care. Okay. Bye.