The Watch - ‘The Flash’ Flops, ‘The Idol’ Episode 3, and ‘Righteous Gemstones’ Returns. Plus, ‘Top Chef’ Judge Gail Simmons!

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about ‘The Flash’ flopping at the box office this weekend and what that could mean for the future of the DC Universe and superhero movies at large (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘The Idol’ (17:28) and the return of ‘Righteous Gemstones’ for its third season (32:56), before they are joined by ‘Top Chef’ judge Gail Simmons to talk about latest ‘World All-Stars’ season of the show (38:55). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Gail Simmons Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running, Running, connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and join me in the studio.

He feels for the next person going into that Valentino changing room. It's Andy Greenwald. I feel for that person, meaning I feel sorry for them or I am feeling for them in the dark and touching whatever's in the room. I want to know your construction there. Prayer's up to anybody who throws a black light on that dressing room. You know what I'm saying? It's great to see you, Andy Greenwald.

Yeah. Happy Monday. Today on the Watch podcast, we have Gail Simmons. one of our faves from Top Chef to talk all things season 20 and talk about the London season and also the future of Top Chefs. That was a very, very lovely conversation, as always is with Gail. I was so glad she joined us. How are you doing today? I'm great.

I wanted to wish you happy Father's Day as father of the podcast. Father of Vital Gang. You have birthed a whole new realm of discourse. How does it feel like being that influential that you are. you are the one that they... You know the way, like, when politicians, there's certain, like, think tanks that they'll cite, you know?

It's like, well, according to the data from the American Enterprise Institute, this and that... You are the American Enterprise Institute for the pro-Idle gang. I clicked on a vulture story by, I think, Nate Jones, and I was saying, like, give in to the idol,

and I was like, it's interesting. Someone else is over here. And, in fact, he was just leasing space on your island. Because he was, like... He, what did he compare you to? Guntergrass? I said, I was...

banging the drum. Yeah. Yeah. How does that feel? We'll get to the idol. Okay. Let's not give away all our wares in the first few minutes. Can I keep things inside baseball for a second?

Mm-hmm. You know, people know. Chris, you were doing some international traveling. Yeah. Like Tedros, Tedros, you're a man without one defined origin point or origin point. I also did not finish education, yeah. That's a great point. Where are you from?

Hollywood? Question mark. So while you were away, you know, obviously Kai and I had different responsibilities that we should shouldered. One of which was I did a couple ad reads. Yes, I heard about those. And I feel like we should talk about this. So we've never. This is what you want to lead the podcast?

Yeah. Well, I just feel like, no, we're going to talk about the idol. But this is how we keep them going. Also, we're talking commerce, which is good for us, probably. We'll also be talking about righteous gemstones just so everybody knows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to talk about righteous gemstones.

I guess I just wanted to have this on the record because I don't know if we've ever discussed it. there was a point when we first started getting ads that I think we shared them. And then it seemed like because in an attempt to, again, like the father of the podcast that you are, you were shielding me from the harsh winds of capitalism to keep my artistic spirit pure that you just took on the ad reads. And I don't know if I, first of all, I don't know if I've ever thanked you for that. But I also don't know. I think it was just a product of the fact that you were often like, got to go, you know, whatever you were doing, whether it was making a television show or being a doting father.

you know? Like, it was like you just were like, I got to go. And then also, I think that, you know, brands just prefer a name they can trust, you know? Well, also someone who uses the products to the degree that you do. So I think that's important. But I was struck by, so I don't mind reading ads. I think it's fun to read ads. Kaya and we had a great time. Isn't that she's nodding. Yeah. The one thing I have to clarify, though, is I did see some chatter online suggesting that I personally get paid more for doing the ads. And I was doing it because, I'm a writer and I'm on strike. I see. That is not true. Okay. I remember you saying at some point there was some Miller beer that was earmarked for me. No, I didn't say that. I said there was some merch for you that I have at the house. Okay. So let's talk about that off air. But no, there is no extra financial incentive to who reads the ad, unless you want to confess something now.

Is this your, are you trying to put me in a corner? Don't put baby in a corner. Listen, I don't know. All of a sudden, you're like, the idol is good. Let's do the average. We have a very elegant system of doing the advertisements. I'll leave it at that. Andy, I know that your money is on your mind right now. Because despite seeing the Flash four times this weekend. In many universes. It fucking bricked.

It really did. I kind of was surprised by that. I want to ask you something. So obviously Flash wind up making a 55-mill domestic. Bro, that's less than Black Adam. Yeah. And, you know, augurs poorly, I suppose, for the current state of... I mean, I think...

that in general, everybody's been talking about this, that there's been in a little bit of anemia at the superhero box office over the last couple of months. I think there's also been a little bit of a, we're very much in a creative drought. Like even the people who are like saying, no, no, no, you don't like, you don't

understand, they're setting this up or this is happening or, you know, you guys just don't even like it. It's like, I think everybody is kind of like it's been a minute since we've had a bangor, right? Yeah. I was, we didn't even see Guardians, did we? I have not seen Guardians in Galaxy 3. I mean, why would I? It's over, right? You know, that's the end of the trilogy.

I saw an interesting discourse on the internet over the weekend. I thought I would kind of bring to you. It's largely, it was coming out, reading Bellanese, Matt Bellany's great, what I'm hearing, a newsletter. And then there was some stuff out of that because Matt often talks about the projections for, you know, the box office over the coming weekend. And then I saw a couple of people discussing this online where it was like, is there something wrong? with tracking. And is there something wrong specifically with the tracking, the box office projections

for superhero films because superhero films keep coming up short in their projections versus what they actually make whereas non-superhero fair is now somewhat overperforming its tracking

over the like your John Wicks your whatever's over the course of the year have done better than they were sort of assumed to be doing and then the superhero movies keep coming up short.

I'm going to throw a theory at you. Tell me if you like this. All right. We have created such an industry, such a hype apparatus around superhero movies. Because for the last few years, quite candidly, they have driven a lot of attention. They have driven a lot of clicks. They've driven a lot of engagement. So there's so much online chatter and discussion of these movies in the casting process, and the shooting process, and the marketing process, the pre-release hype cycle,

that it's creating an inflated. idea of how popular they actually are in some ways, or maybe how permanent they were in some ways. I think that's right. And even though there is not like some obvious alternative to superhero films right now that is like coming up from behind to take the lead, that we may actually be seeing that if you are making mediocre product and they don't look finished and nobody knows who these people are in the movies or they're not really as emotionally invested as some of the cameos that are coming back, as you thought they were, that actually, like, blogging about, like, what does the end of the Flash mean for the future of the DCU for, like,

eight months before the Flash comes out, actually doesn't really, like, it doesn't actually accurately represent the true interest in the stories or movies. I think that's exactly right. This pulls together some strands that we've been pulling out for a bunch of weeks, if not months, right? But we fundamentally broke entertainment when we untethered it from any reality. Like any sort of like, you know, this is the same conversation we have with, we used to make television shows, advertisers bought space. So there was money coming in and money being spent on the show and money coming in.

And we understood what that looked like on our ledger. That got broken in television. Similarly, in movies, the idea that going to the theater was a thrill ride experience and it needed to hit certain beats and it needed to to have certain levels of content or excitement or CGI or connective tissue to get people to spend that money to leave their houses became sort of understood as an important holy writ. This is all happening in the backdrop of something that you and I understand, maybe me a little bit more than you, which is that Twitter is not real life. And that feeding the beast of coverage of exclusive costume reveals or Easter eggs or blog posts or tweets,

It's like, I don't think the average Joe or Jane popcorn gives a shit about any of that or is paying attention to any of it. But in the absence of any other tangible return on investment, you point to that stuff. I mean, do you remember, I don't know if it's still going on, but it is absolutely true that casting decisions over the last five to ten years were made based on follower count for a time. You know, which is why some casting decisions were met very well with great reviews in Russia where the bots who follow that out. were based. Where the idol gang is mostly situated. The other thing is that, perhaps, the other thing is that, you know,

the creation of the superhero shared universe tent pole thing was seen as the ultimate cheat code to avoid the central problem of the expensive business of movie making, which is certainty. You know, and that's why we got those lists of like Warner Brothers, you know, schedules the next 10 years of content

on these weekends with untitled films. because it gave shareholders and everyone some sense of security that there would be some return on that investment. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a part-time ad reader on a podcast to be like, the quality of the movies probably matters to. It does. I mean, and it's that's super basic and super reductive. But all of the things that I'm just sort of poking at or trying to grab my arms around is how you end up with a movie like The Flash, which I think it is fair to say, no one wants.

No one wanted. there is no built-in fan base for this weirdly stapled together hydra of a film. But it's not a flash movie, isn't it? Well, it doesn't even want to be what it is. It is a collection of desperate Hail Mary solutions to problems that were self-created. And I don't even say this as a criticism of any of the people involved, all of whom I've spent years trying to make the best that they can of it. you know, but it all, think about all the decisions that led to this point, like,

where's the fan base for a Flash movie? Well, the Flash movie exists because they wanted to do a Justice League and they wanted to do Marvel, so they scheduled a Flash movie. As recently as last year, people at D.C. at Warner Brothers wanted to scrap this movie because of potentially quality control issues, but also Ezra Miller control issues. And both from a potentially like, we don't know if this is a well person. We don't know if we can support this person, given what's going on. in their personal life and behavior and criminal record,

but also just potentially cynically being like, Ezra Miller, the star of the flash, will not be able to promote the flash. And we're going to have to answer questions we don't want to answer, so why should we go down that road? And so then you just keep throwing things on it in an attempt to make it better

with cameos and injokes and what is it? I mean, I think people, we have not seen this movie. So it's amazing how much podcast air we've gotten out of it, but it does feel like, for as much as I was saying, people will point to Spider-Verse as what this era got right. This may be, I don't think it's going to be the Nadeer because there's still so many of these things coming.

But people might point to this as like what the fuck happened to mainstream entertainment in 2020. I think it's a much larger conversation. I think I'll go see this movie, you know, just to kind of like have the data points there. I've pretty much like broken the seal and read extensively about what happens in it. But I would argue just that like the issue that they're having is maybe that. they are making a flash movie that is also a Batman movie, that is also a backdoor Supergirl movie, that is also a Justice League movie,

that is also a multiverse movie, that suggests that a lot of people really do have preferences, and they do have... There's a Batman that they think is Batman, and that there is a timeline that they think is the timeline, and that they have kind of invested a certain, like, emotional equity in there being a consequence

to an action or stakes. And I think that they've kind of really killed the golden goose with doing multiple franchises doing multiversal storytelling at the same time on both the big screen and the small screen. I think it's a mistake.

And I do not think, I think it's cool as a reset like in the comic books, like when people are like, you know, we got to wipe the slate. Let's do a big crossover multiverse. I do not think it works in $250 million budget movies. Also, who are you marketing for?

I do think that the incredible thing of the last 15 years was that it turned out everyone was a fanboy or a fan girl and cared to some degree, maybe even surprising to them, about comic book storytelling. But not everyone reads comic books. Not everyone left very few people. Kai is currently dressed as Rocket Raccoon, so yeah, it's pretty amazing. That is true, the change that has had on people in our lives. But very few people left the multiplexes and went straight to the,

comic book store to buy the graphic novel of the Corvac saga. That's an Avengers thing. I could explain it if you want, but we have Gail coming on later. There is a... Gail is thrilled. She loves this.

Multiversal storytelling and modern erotica plus Gail Simmons. Great point. Well, we enjoyed our last interview with Gail Simmons. I mean, our final one. There is a subset of the American culture, global culture consumer that just loves all

of it and loves the possibility of multiversal storytelling and it's all fun and give me more, more, more, more, more, more. But I do think there's something pretty traditional about the down the middle, this Joe and Jane popcorn I've created I'm going to stick with. They liked the Avengers movies because it told a story that ended. They'd like the Avengers movies because the decisions that Tony and Steve made mattered and then we haven't seen them again. Yeah. There was a closure to that and people rewatch that movie because it means something and people continue, I believe you continue to rewatch like the Lord of the Rings movies because they were like, they were finite statements about these characters and you can revisit them. I don't think people have

the same relationship with something that goes on forever and doesn't matter. They are absolutely Robin Peter to pay Paul. Why did you try to Frodo shame me just there for you're like, I believe you watch the Lord of the Rings films still to this day? Well, for two reasons. One, I'm pre-itchy of our idle conversation that's coming. And two, you know,

I've seen the numbers. There are two things that really juice this podcast. Three, One, Gail Simmons. Two, controversy. Three, me doing ad reads pro. Not hobbits? So, no, but this is true. And I think that the other piece of this story that is interesting to me,

we said this last week, the only person who's winning right now is James Gunn, who said all the right things. This is a great, great story, and now has complete carte blanche to do what he was already doing, which is start over with kind of more open-hearted versions of the character. that will potentially tell one story. Yeah, he's like a tanking GM who goes out. It's just like every day these guys give everything. And then he's like, but I'm going to previously trade everything of value so that we can start again with Victor.

The crazy thing is, for me, is that Andy Machete, who directed The Flash, and I've never seen any of his movies, seen his wife's producing partner. They did the It movies. They have a relationship working with Warner Brothers. His reward for making what Zazlov and James Gunn said was a great superhero movie. for towing the line and delivering something that seemed impossible, his reward is to direct the next new Batman movie.

Now, this is a literal, a financial reward, I'm sure. But, man, I don't know. I just, you know what, I'm all about the kids. And the kids at film school, and they're like, what is my career path? And it's like, I get to spend three years wrestling with an international public relations fiasco to make a movie that no one likes.

And my reward is more. Or like, you know, how do I make a YouTube video where I set off a bunch of fireworks and a Ford Focus? And how many views for that? That's my The Brave and the Bold. That's right. So it's just, it's a weird, it's a weird moment. It doesn't, I think you're also responding to the like, hey, guess what? That Flash movie that we said was a disaster and that Pixar movie that we think might be good,

but it's also sign of like systemic rot at a once proud company, they both tanked this weekend. Yeah. That's where we're at. Should we talk about what a time it is to be a Mac subscriber? This is all you ever want to talk about. Let's talk a little bit about gemstones, which is back for its third season. You're making them wait for idle talk, so you want to go idle into Gail? Let's do, let's do idle first. That's fine.

I think we should. I think we need a buffer. Do you want to start? No, I want to watch you do this. No, but do you want me to watch me do what? That is a charged statement in context of the idol. In this conversation, I am Tedros, you're Jocelyn. and, you know, show me what you got. Well, as people who know me know it's been a minute since I've had a hairbrush, you know.

Wow. I was trying to think about how to talk about this episode. Okay. I found, I'm never bored watching this show. Okay. That's what I want to say. And I want to ask you if you ever are. Because what are you doing on your phone when you're watching it?

I'm not actually looking at my phone. Okay. I am bored. Are you? Yeah. And a little bit increasingly sickened. Okay. I think that this episode made it clear that...

Daybreak, by the way, the third episode. We're halfway through, by the way. There are things here that, yes, I see that they are interested in flirting with the idea of comedy. That there are things that are intentionally meant to be... either funny or undercut the supposed ego or majesty of our main characters. I get that. Tedros broadly in his behavior at the store and things like that. He quotes, I mean, without acknowledging it, he quotes Richard Gear from Pretty Woman.

I don't think the people making the show or writing the scripts are funny. So I don't think it's funny. I think it's winking or trying to wink in the direction of comedy. I also think that the show to succeed... You know that Rachel said it looking like her cutaway looks at them is not supposed to be funny in the beginning of the end? It is supposed to be funny.

No, no, I'm saying there were things here that were clearly supposed to be funny. Okay. And sometimes they achieved that level of funny. I think that Hank Azaria and the woman from High Fidelity who plays Destiny Divine Randolph, is that her name?

And Rachel said it. Like these people, know how to work with material. Yeah. I think that the, for the show to succeed on any level, and still, you know, I'm not, I want to deal with the text as we're given.

Sure. I'm not like assuming, uh, uh, ill intent or anything. I mean, I'm not, let's see where this is going. But for it to work, it requires you to believe some level of pathos or emotional life within its

characters. And you also have to believe some level of, of charisma, uh, in Tetros. and his cult. Yeah. And I think it's very...

If his name was Ted, would you believe him more? It was just Teddy. I mean, that was the same advice I gave the Unabomber. Years ago, he reached out to me. I told him, Ted, it's never going to work.

That was like, Teddy, it's not going to work. They're not going to take you seriously. Do you listen? He... We have to buy into the menace and the power of it and the manipulation. And it's an incredibly difficult

tightrope walk narrative. to do both. Yeah. So it becomes, to my eyes, it becomes kind of nothing. Are you satirizing something? If so, what? And to what end? What are you showing us?

What do you want us to, what do you want to reveal to us as being ridiculous? Celebrity? Los Angeles shopping. Okay. Yeah. These seem like pretty easy targets, not necessarily worthy of a multimillion-dollar show. I don't know that they're satirizing Los Angeles shopping. I think what it's doing is showing his insidious way of manipulating her.

which is essentially like lavishing attention while also pulling away capital and taking what he needs from her. And so he's pretending like he's taking her shopping. She's paying for those clothes. That's the difference between he makes a pretty woman joke. I don't know if it was, I mean, I think it was intentionally written that way. It's the, is there anything in this store as sexy as she is or whatever. But in Pretty Woman, Richard Gear buys out the store. In this show, he is manipulating her where she now,

walks out with $30,000 with the Valentino stuff. And that's, you know, it's, yeah. If it's true, if the reporting is true that the original Amy Simon's version of the show was scrapped because the weekend felt that it was too privileging of the female gaze, mission accomplished. Because I know absolutely nothing. I mean, I know some biographical details now about her mother, but I broadly know nothing about what Jocelyn thinks about any of this and why she would be put in the situation.

situation, which maybe the show is trying to suggest is a problem with the world because, as we saw, everyone in her orbit seems ready to pivot if there's money to be made, which I think is, you know, clearly... And we're turning a blind eye to the abuse that she was suffering because it was working for them at the time. Right. So that's baked in there and that there's interest there. But every single thing about her, her body in these clothes, her behavior, her willingness to be beaten by Tedros with the hairbrush, which ends the episode, Happy Father's Day America, is entirely external, and we're

just watching her. And that doesn't, I mean, that feels super gross, I think. But beyond that, like, super gross because she and she willingly goes back to that place of trauma. No, no, I'm not even going to read into, like, I'm open to characters. Do self-destructive things. Yeah, working through shit like that. It's not about that. It is the way the show is, is constructed that I find very curious and at its most neutral, my most neutral way of viewing it, it keeps, it's very off-putting. Again, literally, like, I can't find a way in because what am I watching, who am I watching it for into what end? Yeah, I don't, I certainly don't have a transactional relationship with the show because I find it visually pretty compelling to watch.

You know, I don't find it ever dull to look at. I don't find, uh, there are to be that many wasted shots, there are some that are quite gorgeous just in terms of framing or in terms of the camera movement. The tree's on the car in the beginning of the end. Yeah, and I think it's in some ways so well shot that it is muddying the line between the satirical elements of it and the sort of melodramatic elements of it.

I was watching Black Mirror this weekend. We can talk more about that later in the week. But it's very clear when you're watching a comedic episode of Black Mirror and you're watching a horrific episode of Black Mirror, even though some of the things that happen in the comedic episodes are horrific. It signals it with the way it shot, it signals it with the music,

it signals it often with the tone of the acting, that you almost are aware that you were watching kind of a broader satire rather than a, what if reality was just tweaked two degrees and this terrifying thing happened to somebody? You could go back to White Bear is like the best example of that kind of episode.

I don't think Sam Levinson is ever really changing. There's no difference between the way the opening 25 minutes are shot, which is somewhat comedic, I think, although still sexually depraved, to the way the last 25 minutes are shot, which is obviously from the point where they start talking about Robert Plant losing his child through the long dinner, which is kind of like, you know,

I mean, not to compare it to the master, but it is almost like it reminded me a lot of some of the things you hear about Scientology sometimes in terms of like the penetrating sort of repetitive questions. And I think that there actually is something, don't hold me to this, in Scientology, about basically reliving trauma to burst through it. And if that is true and if this is kind of this idea that he's putting, indoctrinating her into his cult and that he has like five or six mental tricks that he's playing on her,

I thought it was like interesting and compelling to watch that depicted. and ultimately the meta thing that I keep responding to was at that dinner when they're talking about the idea of whether there are calculated risks. And this idea that it's not a risk if you know how it's going to play out and that is essentially what this show is doing.

You know what I mean? Like this show is obviously missing the mark with lots of people. You know, like there's people who find it like appalling. There are people who probably find it just dull, you know, and don't respond to the weekend or don't respond to whatever. But it is clearly trying to say,

you can't do something transgressive and also know how it's going to work out. Yes, I understand that, and I'm sympathetic to it. I think it actually speaks to what so far through three episodes, I think, is the fundamental flaw of the show, which I think it doesn't actually have a point of view. I don't think it has anything to say. I think it's the thing that it wants to say is, you're too afraid to say anything, anybody. Look what we're going to do. Okay.

Why? Why? And I don't mean like every episode has to be a very special episode about psychology or therapy or trauma or celebrity. I'm just saying it's pretty tough to create this character, have it be kind of funny half the time, have it be kind of, it's sort of a creepy voyeurism of this main character, this actor and her body and her outfits. I don't think it has any empathy for her. And I think that... Oh, I disagree. I don't think it has any empathy for anyone. And I think that I think that good art has to come from a place of having some empathy for people on a human level. I thought she was really great in the dinner scene.

I'm not saying the actor is good. And I think that she actually had like, you know, there were some pathos there. I think that I don't want to make it be like I'm. No, no. It's not that. Because we're trying to do a bunch of different things in real time, which is have fun with this and laugh also at the parts that are intentionally over the top and laugh at the things that maybe aren't intentionally that aren't working. take it as a TV show and try to consider it as such. And then there's all of the more hot button things that the show pushes,

all those buttons that it pushes. Yeah. I fundamentally don't. I mean, he seems like a dopey cult leader. And she let them move in. Are there cult leaders that you're like, that guy seems like a... I guess what I don't see... Tied down really tight.

Like, he's got all of his eyes dotted. Listen, I've watched the entire Waco trilogy. Yeah, I know. You know, the pre-Wayca. The beyond Waco, the across the Wacoverse. No, but I guess I just feel like I just narratively I would be more locked in if I understood why she let all this happen this quickly. I think because she's isolated. Yeah, and I think everybody around her is actually doing to her what he's doing anyway, for the most part.

They're taking out from the bank, you know, and they're getting what they can out of her. and they'll drop her as soon as they can if they need to. You know, it's like, even Hyman and, you know, when he comes over and stuff and he's sort of sniffing out that this is happening,

I think it's more out of self-interest. I mean, he does, like, say, like, our girl's in trouble, like there is a sort of paternal aspect to what he's doing there. But I think that it's pretty plausible to me that this could happen, I think, within the universe of this show

and this character's isolation in this weird house where she's living with like paid friends. Mike Dean is coming over. And Mike Dean is coming over. And that's the game changer for me. That's what makes you keep coming back. The Kanye's producer Mike Dean is coming over.

Can I ask you a question? I would love it. Still in the idol, but it's a slightly different section of this conversation. Let's do Jewish representation corner. Thank you. Thank you for this. Yeah, I feel, I'm thrilled. Azaria versus Eli Roth.

Who's speaking to you right now? I'm team Azaria. Yeah. I am actually If you ask me what I'm enjoying on this show Especially now that What's the song? Freak? I'm a freak.

Yeah. Kind of a near worm. But that didn't get a lot of play. But it's being remixed and there's going to be a choir, you know? Yeah. So it's less compelling. What I like about the show right now is Hank Azaria. Honestly, I've done a 180.

I'm enjoying his performance. I like his outfits. Taking the Star of David out. I like his sunglasses. Yeah. I mean, I think that he is leaning into. to it, and that version of the show is one that I'm interested in. Maybe we should try potting next week where I wear a windbreaker with no shirt on underneath

and a giant, you know, a cross, and then you have the Star of David with like the triangle sunglasses. You can wear half the star. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah, I mean, look, this has always been tough to articulate, and it's not the most fun radio, but like the things that I tend to be allergic to are when the, I feel the shock and transgression with an absence of empathy or humanity behind it

or interest in the characters. Like that's just my, that's my kryptonite. I'm not interested in that. I'm trying to think of, like, things historically that I have found transgressive or shocking that I did actually have empathy for characters. And I guess I would probably point to a lot of Lynch stuff, which I don't, I think, has more than a little to do with this show,

or at least is influencing the show. I mean, there is definitely a little bit of Mahal and to this, right? Yeah, I hope. Let's just see. Let's see. I think because we're three in. We're halfway done. I was saying we finished recording last week and I was like, this has all the makings of a classic, you fools.

We always intended for this to be a one-season experience. Written all over it. And then the New York Post was like, this show's not coming back. And then someone close to the production said, no, no, it was always intended to be one season. And then HBO came out and was like, we haven't decided it. We haven't decided anything.

So we don't actually know. Is it a problem, broad strokes, separate and apart from my opinion, that three episodes in, it's kind of a shrug emoji in terms of what this is and what it's doing? Probably, I would imagine in the back half will know more. And if it turns into Mulholland Drive, I will be thrilled. I will legitimately be thrilled. I'm trying to think of moments in, like, something that is shocking or something that is like, oh, man, this is really pushing boundaries, where I'm also like,

I really deeply and emotionally wrapped up in like this character. Yeah. You know, and I think... This feels like an ego trip still to me. Okay. For two successful guys. Okay. Who have the ability to do it.

So do it. But, yeah. But this is a bummer. This is a bummer? I'll talk this week. You think so? I worry about that. That it's too...

Because you don't want to be forced to be like the naysayer. Well, there's not really a naysayer. You're speaking for the majority, I think. I feel the winds at my back. I do. Which of us Do you think Like, you know, in every

long-term relationship, someone's a Joe Biden and someone's a Bobby Kennedy Jr. Like which one do you think I am? Well, you're older than I am. Okay, we'll leave it at that. We could stop talking about it

for now. Yeah, for six more days. Want to talk about righteous gemstones before we get to go? Yeah. God damn. So, third season, and, you know, I think that the second season, you started to see a little bit of a narrative around this show where people were recognizing that it was more than just a comedy, you know, and that it was actually this incredible family drama as well, which I agree with. I think I still turn to this show for its comedic fireworks.

But it's very successiony in a lot of ways. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Broadway's. Very broad. I wanted to take a quick moment to shout out Ed Patterson, who secret MVP of the show and has just been really cracking me up

these first two episodes that went up on Sunday night. One of the things I love about this show is they are able to bring people into play from outside of the greater Charleston universe, but then like the core gemstones, the core four, are really like pretty special and like each season develop more and more. And, you know, he's been on this show or working with Danny McBride for a long time.

And I think you can, you can see. The wings are fully spread. It is like succession in that the show is at its best when the three siblings are together. Yeah. With their own particularly, in this case, gross energy. Just Edie, Danny and Adam Devine. and Keldon, holding hands,

or trying to hold hands. It's really, really good. But the thing that I, it is so, look, I mean, in a way, you know, I love to do this. I love to try to make connections. One of the things that HBO

traditionally does very well is let people play, build their own sandbox, and then play in it. I don't particularly like the sand currently in the Idol sandbox, but the McBride, Jody Hill, David Gordon Green

sandbox is totally, incredible and that's probably not sand, so don't snort too much of it. And it's such a specific aesthetic. And then to your point, like, then they bring in, they just call up the HBO All-Star line. And they're like, can we have Shea Wiggum? And by the way, one thing we love doing on the show is old man makeup. Yeah. And he's a chain smoking Christian race car driver. He's basically Richard Petty, yeah. And he's incredible. Yeah. I mean, the fact that this man is the best on-screen cigarette smoker in any era. whether it's Gaslit or Perry Mason or this,

like, Boardwalk Empire, he rules. Yeah. And then Stephen Dorff comes peacock strutting out of an escalade, and he can hang? Yeah. Lucas Haas, Steve Zahn. Yeah. It's really funny.

And it's just so, it's, the thing I love about the show is we're just like, we're back. Yeah. I love also, like, the way that they are able to kind of manufacture narrative. and bring a Kirsten Johnson in and be like, yeah, because Eli had his sister, you know what I mean? Like, it's, they keep finding story while still remaining, like, really reliably entertaining on a week-to-week basis. So I'm just so thrilled to have it back. Are you upset that sugar cookies are fake?

Yeah. What's amazing about the show, honestly, is that it is different than, I mean, East Bend and Down is our North Star. I love that show, maybe more than most shows. I mean, the idea of it being like a collective shared space is really prominent. Like, I still think what Danny McBride does the thing that he does, it's funnier than anything else on TV. So when he's leading the interrogation slash beach beat down. No, when he's going to race Steven Dorf, he's like, this goddamn car. That's actually me in my car.

That was very, I felt seen in that. But he shares the screen so much. And he really, he's, you know, he's become a. That shot of him finally popping the clutch and his NASCAR card taking off and then immediately just going right into the wall. Do you think you could drive one of those cars? No, I don't know how to drive stick. Oh, I do. Do you?

Yeah, still? You don't forget it. Okay. Yeah. Kai, can you drive stick? I actually can. Yes. Interesting.

I wonder what the percentage of Americans are who can drive stick. If that's like almost like, you know, we thought everybody was going to go see the flash, but they didn't. Or it's like writing cursive, which they don't teach anymore. But like that's what we did when you were in Europe. Kaya and I just like did ad reads and drove stick shift cars around. Do you think there are currently more stick shift drivers than there are idle fans? Guy have nodded. Kai is nodding.

You didn't even turn. You could just sense it. You know, we are united on a number of issues facing America today. Okay. Should we get into our Gail Simmons interview? I feel like we should. Okay. On Thursday, when we come back, we'll do the bear, which is dropping its entire.

season on Thursday. And as you said, we're not going to pace ourselves. We're going to pace ourselves. And then we'll also talk some black mirror, hopefully. Andy, it's been a wonderful experience hanging out with you this morning. As always, intellectually stimulating and also emotionally supportive. But also like morally questioning in a way, right? I think we're good. I think you think that we're not good or that this is getting contentious. It's not. Oh, no, I think we're good. Yeah. I just think sometimes, you know, maybe you're just not ready for the truths that I'm bringing. You know, but I think you'll work through them. Thanks to Kaya for producing us today, and thanks to Gail Simmons for appearing.

You can hear her coming up next. And it probably goes without saying that we talked to Gail about season 20 of Top Chef. Oh, yeah, there's some spoilers from season 20 of Top Chef. And who won, season 20, but also other things. Also, you probably know that Podmalakshmi is leaving the show. That's not a spoiler, right? Nope. Great. Let's get into it.

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So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Gail Simmons, thank you so much for joining the watch podcast again.

And thank you so much for an amazing season of Top Chef. Andy and I are so excited to talk to you about this in a lot of ways, like, I think paradigm shifting season. Could be. Yeah. Oh, I like the sound of that. And I don't think you're wrong. First of all, you're welcome.

But really, I feel incredibly grateful to have been part of it, too. So it seemed, for us as fans, it seemed pretty clear early on in season 20 that the level of cooking and the level of competition were higher. than maybe the show had ever seen. I was wondering if that was your experience as well and how quickly that came into focus for you and your fellow judges. Well, that was by design, right?

So we had high expectations because we set this season up to be unlike any other season before it. I mean, this was a season of all stars from around the world. And when I say all stars, you know, we've done all-star seasons before, but this season was about winners

and finalists from 11, or there were 11 different countries. countries, 15 chefs represented from 11 countries who had won or been finalists on their season, on their version, all over the world. So they were not, you know, they'd already all played the game and half of them had already won the game. So they better be good, it's the first thing, right? And we did, you know, we, when I say we, I mean my producers, some of whom you've met,

I have really did extensive research in coordination. with the showrunners and executive producers from all of their respective variations of the show in all these countries on the world to really pick the people they thought could represent their country the best. So it was sort of like this Olympic top chef season and they were all pro athletes in every way and they were ready and they had been trading for this and then they came and I think it was both just exactly as they were. remembered their own seasons to be, but also in a lot of ways much harder with other layers that we didn't anticipate. Yes, we knew from the beginning that they were all pretty good. And it did show

up very, very quickly, you know, that first elimination challenge. There was just a level of, like, finesse and creative energy that we were incredibly impressed by. Had you guessed it on any of the global top chefs, or had you eaten some of any of their food before, or was it really mostly the U.S. chefs that you had experienced. Interestingly, I'm the only one who's ever, I think, been on an international version of the show because I'm Canadian. I guest judged on the very first season of Top Chef Canada. And then I went back just three or four months before we went to London.

And I guest judged restaurant wars on season 10 of Top Chef Canada. Oh, wow. And so interestingly, season one of Top Chef Canada was Dale's season. And so I had met Dale before very, you know, briefly in one challenge quite early in the season. I think that was season one. It was a long, long time ago. But it was, you know, I think one of the first two or three episodes of the season that I guessed it on. So I had met him.

I remembered him. I knew he'd gotten to the finals of his season. And I follow sort of up over here, like generally. I follow Top Chef Canada a little bit because obviously it's my homeland. and a lot of my friends are on it as guest judges. And I've known over the years some chefs have been contestants because when I go home, I do a lot of eating. And so I knew some of the players.

And I'm quite close with a few of the guests and the host. The host is an amazing woman named Eden Green Span who lived in New York for a long time. She's never a show on food no. That's right. And she is a really close friend, I mean, and personal friends. So, you know, I sort of was like very aware of. what was happening in the Canadian version. But that was it.

The only other connection that our show has had to a lot of these versions is that our producers are in touch. And so they often share best practices. They share challenge ideas. They share learning. And so we have actually taken and modified several challenges over the last few years from international versions to bring on to the show. So actually, the coolest thing is that after our all-star season in 2019, Melissa King's season that she won where we were in L.A., and then we went to Italy, and that was right before the shutdown.

We were in Italy for two weeks shooting our finale. And when we all flew home from Italy, four of our executive producers flew on to Paris for like this Paris thing. tank. It was an amazing thing. They had a top chef executive producer conference where all the executive producers of all of the variations around the world met in Paris for three days and brainstormed and talked and shared insight. And when they came home, that's how World All Stars was born. And so they also brought a bunch of challenge ideas with them. And those challenges appeared in our Portland season, our Houston season, you know, the doppelganger challenge we did in Houston. the other challenge, that was the French challenge,

the other challenge that came from learning about it from other variations, international variations, was the challenge where we put the chef in like a black box and they had to cook what the other person was making that. Yeah, the Olympians. Or yeah. Correct. Yes, yes, God, you're so good.

You're so much better than me. That was a, what that was borrowed from an international version challenge. So that's kind of what's been amazing about having all these other variations out there. They all, you know, take our framework, but they have all their own creative ideas and we're able to share a lot of that now. And so that's how World Else Earth even came about in the first place. I just want to say up top that a top chef think tank in Paris sounds a lot better than like an offsite in Indianapolis, you know, like a sales conference in Orlando or something. I was begging to go. I was begging Donnie and our showrunner

when they were leaving from Paris. I was like, wait, I can come. I'll be really helpful. I'll be your intern, I'll get you guys coffee. I just want to be a fly on the wall. They shut that down very quickly. But it was amazing that they came back super invigorated and, you know, they learned so much because everyone speaks the formula. And then we learned so much more about that on World Lelstar when we started shooting because we got to talk to the contestants. And as you often saw, the contestants would speak to each other about how they did it in their own countries and the things that were different and the same. It seemed, it was interesting to see how successful some of the American contestants were.

And I wonder, not to be, well, I guess since you're an international, you can have that perspective as well. I wasn't sure if that was a surprise to you guys internally, if they were going to be able to hang with some of the international cooks or whether Top Chef, the game, the game, was a common language the way English was. Interestingly, we talked a lot about this. We brought, obviously there were four Americans, which was the most representative, you know, of any of the country because we are the American version. And actually, our conversation, Tom and I specifically talked a lot leading up to it about what kind of advantage that would give them because English is their first language.

And I actually think one of the greatest challenges to some of the most talented checks on the show was that English was not their first language. And so not only did it make it more of a challenge for them learning the rules to every challenge and community. in the kitchen, but then also communication at judges' table, they were all extraordinary. But, you know, when Thai is your first language and Italian is your fifth language and English is your 18th language, you know, these are complicated layers that we knew of and we were going to excited to kind of see how they played out and also wanted to make sure it was as fair as possible. And of course, the English speakers and specifically the Americans did have a bit of an advantage, perhaps. Not only because of the language, but because they've played our version before.

We knew them. I actually, I knew that some of them could hang. I certainly knew that Buddha could hang because he was like fresh out of the competition. We're going to get to Buddha. We have some questions. Yeah, I know. I assume. You know, really, I wondered about Amar because he'd been out of the game for a while.

and I just didn't know if he was kind of his cooking level. I hadn't kept up to him. And so when they told me that he was one of the international contestants, I was like, oh, I'm not an outlier. Let's see how that goes. But wow, he has, I mean, he makes me so happy, Amar. He really showed up and pushed himself because he kept talking about how he's the old guy and he's like 40 or something.

Yeah, I don't want to hear any of that. It made me feel really terrible. But right. But, you know, yeah, I mean, but then you know, Don, who obviously is extraordinary and talented in every way, didn't make it very far. And that's okay, too, because it would be really boring, I think, if all four Americans made it to the very end. But they did pretty well, all things considered, obviously. I thought, and I say this as praise, this is not meant as criticism, but I thought this season really highlighted the difference between just pure cooking chops and the ability to play the game and what each, you know, what each challenge. demands and which bucket it pulls from. Specifically, I was going to bring up Amar because if you look at, as you said, like his CV, his vibe, you wouldn't think he would be able to hang with these Michelin level cooks, and that's not a ding on him. But I was really struck by the fact that Begonia,

who came in cooking what looked like some of the most unique and inventive food that you've had in 20 seasons was undone by a relatively conventional stress moment misreading the challenge type of thing, while Amar was playing with a freedom and I'm intentionally using like an NBA way of speaking about things, you know, he let the game come to him. He was cooking with sort of joy and freedom and he understood in the right moments

that especially that same challenge where Begoni went home, just cook the most comforting thing. He won that challenge. Yeah, I thought that was a remarkable episode because of that. Well, comforting, but it was also like layered and beautiful. Yes, I don't mean to ding it. And it took, yeah, oh no, you're not.

I didn't read it that way at all, but it was, you know, it was sort of like, secretly really complex, but it read as this very comforting, simple, simple dish. You know, it took him 24 hours to click it because he blazed those lamb shanks. And it was so beautiful. And you're absolutely right. Bologna, I will say, and, again, Tom and I have talked about this point at length too. Bagonia absolutely cooked some of the most interesting food we've ever eaten on the show.

And I adore her. I can't wait to, I hope one day. her and eat her food in her restaurant. And she's clearly, like her brain works in a different way. And I was so moved by a lot of her food and just sort of fascinated by her presentation. It felt truly innovative and unique. And that's like a rare thing these days because also the world is so small, right? Tom loves to talk about how, you know, Tom's the OG.

He cooked in a different era. And if you wanted to learn about a cuisine or a style of a restaurant or a renowned chef's food, you had to like get on a plane and go to that place. And that's how you would learn about another approach to cooking. And now you just have to open your phone and follow a bunch of people. And soon everybody's food starts looking alike because it's so accessible to see what other people are making at any given moment. And it sort of meshes everything together. And everyone's kind of blends in.

But then you get someone like Begonia who comes along and you realize that there really is so much happening out there beyond the conventional way of thinking and cooking about, like, you know, with food. She really, she really had this beautiful, interesting approach that made us really excited and hopeful, regardless of the fact that she didn't make it necessarily quite to the end. I still have the utmost respect for her style of cooking because it was. so interesting and like just absolutely brilliant.

I thought I would start asking, we can start our Boodoo questions now. So I was re-watching the finale and I was re-watching the judge's table. And there's this really interesting moment where I think it's his dessert and you say something like it's the most playful

thing I've had from him in a while. It was like some line like that. And it occurred to me that I wonder if you had eaten so many conceivated. executive Buddha dishes over the two seasons. I basically just ate Buddha food for a year and a half. Right.

And I hadn't really considered the fact that that might have been working against him a little bit at a certain point. Like in a way he did overcome that as well, which is that he can't surprise you guys anymore because he's been cooking for you for two seasons of television. He's been in every single challenge pretty much like he's in the mix. he's getting to the end of the episodes every time you're considering his food. You know, when you put it in that context, can you even like kind of explain to us what what an amazing feat he just accomplished by winning back-to-back seasons? Yeah. Yeah, I haven't thought about it that way, which is interesting.

And I appreciate that point. I thought about it more. Yes, we had come to know him and his food was the freshest in all of our minds, right? So that works for you and against you. I thought about it more because he did surprise us. I mean, time and again, he still came to the table, literally, figuratively, with an incredible plate of food, right? That felt innovative and interesting and beautiful, beautiful,

and technically so solid and, you know, hard to argue. It's deliciousness. But there was a conversation that we were always having about Buddha in that it all sometimes can feel really technical and really sometimes, I'm trying to think about word because certain words I don't want to give the wrong impression about, you know, his style can be incredibly precious and it is very specific, right?

So when you ask him to do other things outside of that, is he able to, or is he only able to cook with like tweezers and molds and, you know, twel shaped like leaves? And even though they are absolutely him and they make him the chef that he is. But then you see episodes, you know, the one that comes to mind. Actually, I was with Buddha yesterday. We were in Aspen together for his prize at the classic in Athens. And someone came up to him.

to talk to him about his marriage pasta, the amatriciana, the beautiful bowl of prophecy he made in Houston for us. And so then there's moments where you're like, oh, yeah, no, no, no, Luda can do it all. And he does push himself to be homie when he needs to be and to be, you know, very sort of like fine dining when he needs to be. But he does have the capability to switch lanes. And sometimes we forget that because we think of him in this one very specific lane. the dessert he made on restaurant wars as an example of that and the dessert in his final meal absolutely where he like sometimes his food feels so technical that you wonder if it has like meaning or if you're really seeing him or if you're just seeing this like kind of robotic way that he was taught to cook by all the three Michelin Sard chefs he's worked for and how much of that is really from his heart but he does surprise me and he does cook these things that have many. players of purpose.

And, you know, you think about the inspiration that he calls from his father, from his, from Australia, from his wife, from, you know, the place he's in. He's able to bring these moments. And he is incredibly consistent with them. And it's hard to ding him for being consistent, right? For having this point of view that never falters. It never wavered. He never compromises his style.

He figures out a way to make it work for every challenge. And that is, I think, why he was able to do what he did and win back to back seasons, the second one being against some pretty extraordinary international competitors. Speaking of being... He really rose to the challenge. He certainly did. And speaking of being older than Amar, which is a problem for all of us, I think. This season made me realize that I have now watched, I guess, 301 times.

televised episodes of Top Chef in my life. And it really brought into mind... Thank you very much. That was a dunk on him because I think he started watching later. But... I went back, though. He went back. The pandemic was long.

It made me realize just how... I don't actually recommend season one to anyone. No, it's a very different show. I don't think I actually ever saw season one. But the only season one example I wanted to pull from was just what... It meant to compete on the show where you give someone like Harold, whose restaurants in New York I miss. who was a cook who cooked in restaurants,

and he won the show to a contest. Yeah, he was a line cook at the time. Right, to a contestant like Buddha who works in a restaurant in New York, but also in some ways grew up on the show and was educated by the show. His language is the show, his competitive juices are stoked by the show.

And it's a very different, almost he's stepping into a very different career that's possible because of the previous 1920 seasons of the show. You know, he's, sometimes you watch this, and I commend him, and I love watching him, but it seems like he was made in a lab to dominate on top chef, and it's really breathtaking. He made us realize.

We knew this, but obviously now the competition has changed, and it becomes sort of very meta because the world reflects the show and the show reflects the world about how there is a whole generation of cooks who now come on the show, having watched every season, having that. This is also happening on Survivor. Yes, it's happening, I assume, on a show. a lot of competitions. Of course. Of course it is. And because of that,

the game has to change. So the game keeps changing and because of that the contestants keep changing and because about the game keeps changing. And it's you know, this loop that it forces us to push ourselves and the challenges and the shows more because we have to keep up with and

challenge our contestants because they know all of our tricks at this point. And they are studying it the way that you literally like study football plays, right? And, and and can watch games and can watch another team and know exactly how they work and where their weaknesses are. And at what point in the game, they pull in certain players. I mean, this is not a metaphor I can play in, but I'm trying really hard for you guys right now.

We appreciate that. And thank you. Thank you. I'm making it all up completely. I mean, I'm from Canada. I don't even know how to play football. But, you know, Canadian football is a different game. So, yeah, neat.

But anyway. You know, so you're right. Like it, he, but he became the poster child for that, right? Because he did it in a way that no one before him had actually really taken the time to do. But I guarantee going forward everyone will and everyone can. I mean, it's all out there to watch and rewatch and understand. And there are patterns. But it also, in a great way, forces us to rethink and push ourselves and, you know, we're casting differently now.

I mean, we're casting differently all the time because we're able to sort of up the stake. But we have to go into it with open eyes ourselves, knowing that the contestants know us so intimately and know the show and the game so well. That said, and I think Buddha will say this as well, it is one thing to be an armchair. What's the metaphor? Armchair quarterback. Like, you know, armchair expert. An armchair. Thank you.

Monday morning. I'm chair quarterback expert. That's right. Well, the football thing was going. I was just trying out. That's it. That's it. That's it.

That's it. It's another thing to then be on the field, right? Or on the court. And that still, I think, blows everybody's mind and it's harder. Even for Buddha. Like, I don't think the Buddha sailed by. No, we are not. We are not anti-Buda.

It's just, there was a moment in the, suddenly the end of the season. Oh, I know that. I mean, I'll feel the same. But he did suddenly feel like an inevitability. Thanos in the Marvel movies. And I wondered if this was more of the edit or if there was some truth to this in the finale, that it did feel like in watching the season 20 finale that the judges were looking for reasons to elevate the other contestants against his dominance. That there were, that had Sarah cooked, had the liver worked out, she was close.

Yeah, because there's a moment where Tom says it like he, like it basically hits all of you that Sarah might have won if the liver had worked out and Padma just puts her head in her hands and I kind of, it just does seem like it's like oh Sarah lost it like right there but she was neck and neck with him. Yeah, she did. Her food man talk about also a comeback

like four ways from everything. We'll get to that in a minute. But it was his to lose. It was by then. But I will tell you, and I say this with total honesty, halfway through the season, it was not a foregone conclusion.

It is never a foregone conclusion until that last meal. Because, you know, I say this all the time. We know who the best cooks are pretty early in the game, but that does not mean that they win. Time and again, you make one mistake, you have one bad dish,

and you go home, even if you may be the best cook in the kitchen. And it has happened to so many great competitors that we love. Think about Kwame. Think about, you know, there's like so many. chefs over the years who we've had to say goodbye to knowing that they really could have won the whole thing had they not made that one mistake. So I never felt during the season that it was like,

well, we might as well just give it to Buddha on episode three. That was not the case. Yeah. He was on the bottom a couple of times. You know, we were talking, yes, we were on a panel this weekend at the food wine classic in Aspen. And he was talking about how he completely forgot to memorize a biscuit recipe. And that biscuit, quick buyer, he was on the bottom. bottom and he like he's it can be on the bottom everyone's on the bottom it's a hard game he was people forget that he was on the bottom he is you know I was joking he's like 99% perfect but that 0.1% puts you on the bottom sometimes and he's flawed and there were a lot of times on his dishes like were amazing but not you know everyone's were amazing and there were certainly many dishes

that were better than his on a number of occasions but it's a long game and and and he's He plays that and he knows that. A couple of specifics from this season that I was curious about. One was in restaurant wars, there was a change this season where instead of doing front of the house, the contestants were using the front of the house staff of a three-star Michelin restaurant in the Art of London. Yeah. That did change the nature of that competition of that week. And I was curious, your thoughts on that on what it gave you and maybe what it took away.

Actually, before I answered that question, I would actually love to pose the question to you guys. first. What did you guys think of that change? I'm very curious because we had a lot of reasons for making that change and I would love to know how it felt from the viewer. I personally really liked it. I always find it really good television to watch people work front of the house, but I also don't necessarily think it's fair for a top chef contestant to get sometimes like dang for whether or not they're a good

a good host and can plan service. Although I know that is part of like being a chef and running your own restaurant and restaurant wars, it's what it says on the sticker is like you should be able to think about all the dimensions of the dining experience. But I thought it was a cool twist. There were some moments where I was like, whoa, like this is so different to see Tom go behind the counter, you know, and like check on something.

What did you think? That was like when the congressman said, you lie. Like that was like, I couldn't believe Tom was doing it. It was such a shocking breach of decorum. We felt the same. When he got up there, we were like, wait, Tom, sit down. What are you doing? Why are you? We just knew our director who was like, you know, in the back village was like, what is happening

right now? I don't have coverage of this. Wait a second, wait a second, unplanned. But that's also what was great. Tom spending too much time in Last Chance Kitchen. He gets real handsy. He gets real up close and personal there. And then all of a sudden he's just like, I guess we're just, this is still my house.

I hear what Chris is saying. It's his house. I kind of is. I broadly agree with him because this is a, you know, this is a show. about cooking, and it's best to see that pure and undiluted. But I will say that it's tradition on the show, and one that I think people like Buddha are familiar with and should be prepared for. It's not as if a top chef winner or a runner-up or even contestant is walking to a world where they'll necessarily be back running and expediting at one restaurant. They're walking into a much

broader media landscape where greeting people and managing people's expectations is part of it. I don't mind seeing that be judged. But the biggest thing for me was by having a three-star Michel in front of the house manage and allay problems the way that it did, it kind of just turned it into another week. It was just another regular challenge where they're just cooking. This time they're cooking a chef's table dinner and all the other stressors being removed made it kind of conventional for me in a way that I was disappointed. Thank you for the market research. Yeah, sure. That was very, very insightful.

available go to any top chef think tanks in outside of the country. Yeah, in Paris. Right. Preferably in Tokyo, Paris, or San Powell. But anyway, yes. That was really interesting. Thank you. Because, you know, every restaurant war, there is an element that becomes a bit of a

like social experiment, right? We try to change something every single time for the reason we discuss because people know the game and they expect it and they know that it's episode eight or nine. They know that there is a certain kind of structure to it and how can we change it. The discussion of back of the house, front of the house, has been something that has been on the table for us for, you know, many, many feeders. Tom has always, not always, but for especially the last several seasons, has always, has tried to push it to just let them cook. They're still cooking a tasting menu. They're cooking for chef's table.

They're cooking for 50 diners. They still have to come up with a concept. they have to work cohesively. It has to, you know, the kind of big vision of this is the concept. And are they able to come up with a viable restaurant concept and then deliver on that concept in a full expression, right? And, you know, you think about last season, and that's the exact, a perfect example of a Buddha crushed the front of the house. And one restaurant was Jackson in the other restaurant was a mess. and even though we all know that he had,

that is a perfect example, he had a real chance at winning the whole thing. He was Buddha's greatest competitor on the Houston season, I think. And he messed up a restaurant once because he was not a good matriety. And he was really, he's a lovely person, but his expertise do not lie in managing the front of a restaurant. Even though he's a restaurant owner himself and he does it very well,

all of those layers stripped him up and he went home for it. And so when we had the opportunity to cook in Claire's restaurant to cook at core, also put in the layers that we've also talked about, which is that English is in everybody's first language. There are, we didn't know how the, we didn't know how the teams were going to play out, right? Who would be on each team, what their English would be, what they're, we wanted to just try and make it,

especially for these chefs at the level they were at as cooked, but how different they were from around the world in the way that they cooked in the places that they cooked. When we were designing it, which we designed months before, weeks before, right? We weren't designing it the night before based on who was left in the game. By then, it's already in motion. We wanted to make it, first of all, the best restaurant wars you've ever had in terms of the food because we wanted to give them that opportunity.

We wanted to respect the house. We wanted to respect Claire's house. And we didn't want someone just making a mess of her dining room. and really we thought that that would then allow them to focus on that concept and execution and really taking advantage of that extraordinary kitchen and dining room in a way that we haven't been able to do before. So that was the reason, and Tom was like a real cheerleader of that, I do think that you lost something a little bit in that tension of the front of house job, which I do think is

important as a restaurateur and as a chef these days. but I think you made up for it with the amazing level of detail. I think that makes sense and it's defensible. And I also would not be advocating for a return to the years when people went shopping for candles and plants. Like I feel like that's less good. But I think what was interesting about this, and I don't know how you would, this is a challenge for you and the other executive producers, what was compelling to me about that episode was that the winning team did do all that front of the house consideration and storybuilding and narrative communication. How do you televise that in, you know, 58 minutes or whatever?

I don't know. But that was the interesting piece to me that all of that thinking was there in the winning team. It wasn't just that they were cooking on a line. But that's harder to tell that story, I guess, within the framework. Well, no, you saw. I mean, we did tell it if that's what you got because that's what I was about to say. And it wasn't just a Buddha show by any means. Actually, I think the front of house magic for UK was Sarah Brackman.

Yeah, she had her notebook. Think about the way. should communicate to the staff because yes, of course they were a three-star restaurant restaurant and you were working with servers and a general manager

who knew that dining room intimately and the level of service but they had never seen these people's food before and they had never worked with these chefs and there still needs to be. I mean, a restaurant runs well and the ballet happens between the front and back of the house

when the back of the house communicates and when there is a true collaboration between each side and even though we were working with an amazing pro as the matriety and general manager who was there with us, he still had to have that relationship with our chef. And it was, I think, Sarah, who really was the star in that moment because she was able to be so organized and communicate with him and give them an exact roadmap of how the night was

going to go, let alone the fact that they had a great concept and then they delivered all. I agree. I may have gotten distracted because I googled the head waiter and her LinkedIn page says, like my passion is bringing the highest level of service to all three-star restaurants around the globe. And I was like, okay, kind of a ringer. Well, I mean, Claire, Claire knows what she's doing. She does. The one other, it's not a point of contention, but just curiosity was about the finale itself.

Because, again, as someone who's watched so many episodes of the show, I remember being there for, and Chris and I've talked about this on previous podcast, the finale that didn't work for me was the Iron Chef finale, the Brooke and Kristen finale. and I remember I tweeted that, I wrote a piece about it, and Tom tweeted at me and said, you're right, not doing that again. And I was like, thank you, Jeff. I was going to say, I was going to say, for what it's worth, that's not like didn't work for anybody. Yes, so I, exactly.

It stands as our poster child for what never, ever to try and do again. And let me assure you, it was way worse for me, Tom and Padma. Oh, God. It was a terrible afternoon. Terrible. So the question, though, is that we've reached this point now where the finale is so open it. You know, they've been, they've been constrained. by challenges and by the clock, I mean, they're still constrained by the clock, but constrained by

so many things up to that point that for me, this finale felt almost a little bit like a letdown because it was just, okay, now go cook the meal that you probably mean this wasn't text, but subtext is that you've been thinking about for however many weeks before you even landed in London. And that did feel like it robbed me of some drama that I was hoping for. And I wonder if that's a conversation. I know you're always tweaking everything. if there's an ongoing conversation about that or if you feel the same way at all internally. Well, it will be now.

Nailed it. No, that's why I love talking to you guys so much because you are so analytical and it all helps. The best thing about being on top chef, I mean, there's a lot of good things. I love the food and I love the travel and I love the people. But the best thing of being on top chef is that it is a show that evolves. Yeah, yeah.

And we, I think that's what we, I think, that's, why we're still on the air because every season we make changes and we make tweaks and Donine and her team are so good at looking at what worked and what didn't in real time and changing it for the next season and things like restaurant wars or things like how we work through the pandemic or the contestants or taking out a lot of a kitchen reality or taking out of the home reality and there's so many levels of changes we make every season to refine and tighten things up and to listen to our fans. And I fully hear that. Everyone knows what the finale is going to be before you even start episode one because that's what our finale has become.

And so perhaps it is time to look at that more closely because I do think you're right to some degree. the defense of it is that the entire season long, we don't let them, and I use this in quote, cook their own food, right? We give them so many constraints every episode, every challenge, and they're constantly saying to us when they're eliminated, if they're eliminated in episode three or episode seven, but I still haven't cooked my food for you.

I still haven't shown you what I could do, and I didn't get a chance to really, and our response is if we wanted you to do that, we would just come to your restaurant. The whole point is to take you out of your comfort zone and put you in unexpected places and push you in different directions than you've ever been pushed before and see if you can still cook your food and show us your point of view. And so we do want them to have that freedom to really finally show us whatever they want to show us

that they haven't had a chance to show us before in a way that feels like we're not like helicopter parents. But, you know, that's okay. It's something I hadn't thought of, but you might lose that that intensity in some ways. That doesn't also mean that it's perfect. That's what sort of, as the person who gets to eat all of those dishes I think about, because they come to the table. And when I read the menu, when we first sit down and read their menu for the first time,

I get so excited. And then sometimes disappointed because it should be perfect. We've finally given you the chance to execute this menu that you've probably had plans. a year ago. Sometimes they have to make tweaks based on ingredients and, you know, kitchen. But really, it should be 100%. All three of them should be 100%. And they're not.

So that's where it kind of allows us to really separate that winner because they still make a mistake. If you guys are interested, I do have a notebook of ideas. I could be like the Alain Ducasse. Yeah, no, I'm going to run. I'd like to fly to Paris with a glass of wine, share my thoughts, and then leave before decisions are made. That's the model I'd like. You're hired.

My favorite part about that whole bit was the how many times people were like, he's going to leave now. And he was like, no, no, no. I'm going to have one more glass of wine on this. This is my boat. It's incredible. What a king. Having Alanis up there with his champagne was sort of amazing. And then he did leave before we ate anything.

but he has obligations. He's a very busy man. And I do think that it was like such an honor to have him there. And he did have a lot to say to us about, you know, the show. And he stuck his finger in a lot of Mizant class, which was exactly what we wanted him to do. We don't want to take up too much of your time. We would be remiss if we didn't talk about your longtime host

who's leaving the show after so many seasons, Padma. And, you know, if you watch as the final dinner and the finale is served, She obviously becomes very emotional at the end of that dinner. So it almost suggests that she kind of knew that this decision was coming. I was just wondering, without even putting too specific of a question on it, if you could describe what this experience has been like working with her over the last 19 seasons. 19 seasons of TV and, you know, what she's meant to you and what she's meant to the show. Sure.

You know, as much as a lot of people grew up watching us, we grew up together. you know, in our careers anyway. I was 30 and she was 35, I guess, when we met. And I don't want to do the math, that you guys can do the math. And it wasn't 19 years, let's be clear, but close, but close. And, you know, our show has took a lot on a life that we never anticipated. And it took us around the world and it took our, and all the, while we were living our lives together in a lot of ways, all of us. And I don't just mean Tom Padma and I,

I mean our crew, our director, our producers, our camera operators and audio technicians and our head of art and our culinary producers. I mean, this is a team of now 150 people, many of whom have been with us in season two and three. And so everyone plays a huge role. And she certainly was, and, you know, she came on with a lot of hesitancy. I think it was a very new position for her. And she talks a lot about having kind of imposter syndrome when she started because she didn't come from a food background. She loved food, was a good cook, had written a cookbook as a model, you know, and her

travels around the world. And she had absolute passion for it. But this was stepping into a very different role for her than she'd ever done before. And it's the same way it took all of us a few years. to figure out our own chemistry and then our individual points of view and our own voices and be comfortable in those voices. You know, it was the same for her and I think she did it beautifully and really owned her knowledge and her passion on the show and I think that came through.

And we've had like so many crazy adventures together, the things that we've all been through for this kind of two months a year that we're all sort of at summer camp. for the last 17 years, there's nothing else like it. We talk a lot about how every class of chefs, every season of chefs has this experience together, and there's no one else who say they've gone through that. And so they are, of course, bonded for life in this weird way.

You know, they've lived through this battle, and they've come out the other side, and they'll never be the same. And I think that that applies to the three of us and also to all of us as a crew. And so that is remarkable. And she has been a great mentor to me in a lot of ways as a mom. She became a mom, I think, four years before me, five years before me.

And really set a precedent on our set for what that means and to give us the space to do our best work and also to have our lives and our children and make it workplace that understood that and it allowed a lot of our crew to be the same, right? So that's amazing. And I think she's, I don't know, she's still my friend. She's not going anywhere in my life. So I don't feel sad about it, maybe, because other people. But she'll be missed. I mean, but truthfully, our show has never been about us.

Our show's not about Padma. And I mean this in the best way. Our show is not about Tom. It's not about me. It's not about Padma. Our show is about our chef. and it'll continue to be about our chef. And we are going to make changes, and we always do.

And I think that change is really good. And as I said before, our show has always been awesome at taking a step back and evolving. And this will just be another evolution. But I don't think it'll change the quality of the show in any way. I want to ask you about the evolution, but I did just have to ask, did you know or did you have a sense that this might be coming, or is every season like you never know what's going to come the next year? Well, certainly this is a different change than the other things you never know.

We never know where the no black location is going to be. No, but I mean, like when you were sitting down in Paris, did you know that this was her last final table? No, no, we did not. We shot that season in Paris in October. You know, that was six months ago. Yeah. No, we did not know. Can I tell you if Padma knew or not?

No, I don't know the answer to that. But I knew she was leaving before she announced it on her social media. Right. I figured that. So in terms of the, in terms of the. In terms of the evolution, I mean, I think that's one of the things that's really, as you said, it's exciting as fans of the show, and it allows us to be fans of the people who come from the show, the people who host the show, but the show itself, because it has really grown to meet every moment and to new challenges. So I love even just what you just said, that this is an opportunity to evolve in a different way going forward to the show. I know you can't spoil, although we should say that when you were with us kind enough to join us last year, you did when we stopped recording, tell us that you were doing an international season. So we hope we can get some more off the record goodies. Oh, right, I did. I did.

And I was like, oh, God, wait, stop. We kept it. We edited it. We were really good. You are. I appreciate that. This has been a wild run of an all-star season in L.A., seeing if you could make the show during COVID, coming out of COVID, and then doing this international season that was the fruit of that confab in Paris. Years ago that Chris and I were very much not invited to. I wasn't either. We're in it together.

We're going to make our own confab and Paris guys. Okay. I mean, listen, we can, we'll arrange through the PR, we'll make it happen. What do you feel like is the next evolution for the show? And this doesn't have to be, I'm not mining for spoilers. I'm just curious for you, like, this is an opportunity. The host is leaving, you can evolve aspects of the show, you've done all these incredible things the last three years. What do you feel is next?

You know what we really want to do? We really just want to call it in. I'm totally just joking. Totally joking. The time to break that news is 41 minutes into the conversation. Yes, exactly. We really just want to do nothing. We just want to fit back, have them make us some mac and cheese.

I don't know. From a box? No, I'm totally. Who's going to buy Tom Hats if the show ends? Come on. We need to keep this going. I mean, our head of wardrobe, Charlotte, is incredibly dedicated to Tom's hat. So I'm pretty certain even if the show her to end tomorrow,

she would spend her life buying Tom Hatch. She's a cool. She is. But, you know, and maybe that's Padman's gift to us is that she's forcing us to not be able to call it in for next season. Not that we are going to. There is a world to explore, first of foremost, and that is built into the fabric of the show. We did one international season.

We've been to, you know, we've been to, I think over 20 seasons, we've been to into like 47 places or I'm not you guys might know that statistic done our executive users certainly knows that's like you know how many cities we've been to how many countries we've been to they are a drop in the hat in the world and we are ready to take it on so I think where we're going next is going to be really unexpected both you know we're coming back to the states at least partially and I think it's going to be unexpected, which I'm really excited about because, again, being Canadian, but also living in New York and it's a part of the country, I don't get to go to a lot.

Okay. And so I'm ready. I'm ready. We're all actually really excited and ready to, again, show another layer of American sort of like history and food that we actually have done nothing like, almost, almost nothing like it. And it just shows how diverse and a massive and extraordinary this country is. And then we're going to, assuming that this all gets sorted out, go somewhere else, another part of the world that is in complete contrast to that.

So I think just inevitably it's easy, it's easy to keep evolving our show because there's a whole world out there. That's sort of endless. And what steps have you and the producers taken to keep Buda away from the third straight season? Like, do you have to change your numbers? Is there a security protocol? It's so funny. We were at this panel on the weekend together, and Buddha made that same joke. He was like, you know, I submitted my application and I was refused.

I was turned down. But, you know, don't think he's going anywhere. The poor man, he's having twins. I don't know if you heard that. Oh, wow. His wife is pregnant with twins. So he's got a busy year. ahead of him.

He's best. He's busy. I'm glad. Yes, that's right. They will make excellent twins. But I don't think he's heard the last of us. That said, we're going to give him a rest for a minute. He can go enjoy the fruits of his victory finally,

because he hasn't even been able to do that from Houston yet. Yeah. And I think that what we're going to do for this coming season is just try to, like, you know, dig deeper. The cast is something I haven't met or I don't know anything. about them specifically yet, but I had a long talk about casting director a couple weeks ago. And like the enthusiasm, his eyes were like so wide talking to me about just what that international version of the show did to reinvigorate, you know, domestic chef here in America.

And so that's where we start from. Every season, you know, it's not just what can we do differently than last season, but it's what can we build on from last season. And our wield are always turning. It would be amazing, though, if Buddha showed up wearing a fake mustache and was like, no, I'm Duda. But just driving a BMW with boxes and cases of San Pellegrino water in the back? Just like, yeah. Pay no attention.

That's right. Gail, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for an amazing season of TV. We can't wait to see where it goes next. Yeah, we hope we talk to you again. We love the show. And thank you for everything. Thank you.

I feel like we owe you like a residual check or a paycheck for all the insight that you provide every time I talk to you guys. We don't expect much. We'll just come to a tasting sometime. Yeah. Well, guys, where are you based? We're in L.A. L.A. You are.

Okay. But to be clear, we're willing to travel. Exactly. And internationally. I feel like we were holding back that idea, but now we're just going to be honest with you. No, no. You know, it's all on the table. Okay.

It's all on the table. It's ridiculous that you haven't come, so we will figure that out. Thank you guys. Thanks so much. Have a good rest of your insight. You too.