The Watch - The Future of Streaming Television and Celebrating ‘Ozark’ and ‘Insecure’ (Ep. 175)

Episode Date: August 10, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the Television Critics Association and the future of TV streaming, highlighting some of the difficulties the entertainment industry is facing (0:30). Later, Andy sells Chris on Season 2 of HBO’s ‘Insecure’ (23:00), and Justin Charity and Chris pitch Andy on Netflix’s ‘Ozark’ while discussing the value of TV that simply entertains us (27:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, welcome to The Watch. We're pleased to announce the newly relaunched ringer.com this week. We are really excited for everyone to see the new site. Check out the latest articles, videos, and podcasts at the ringer.com. Special thanks to Miller Light, who have been with us since the beginning, and have been fantastic partners to us. We're thrilled to have them as the relaunch sponsor for the site. Miller Light, it's the official beer of the ringer.

I ain't sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor of The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio becoming unbundled.

It's Andy Greenwald. Remember stack bundles? I do. RIP, man. Andy, what's up? It's The Watch. It's Thursday. We are coming fresh off

a midweek, mid-season episode of Talk the Thrones. I wouldn't say we're fresh. We are not fresh. We are wilted. But you can find this episode. We recorded it today with the wonderful J. Baruchel

who is a huge fan of the Scottish band Idlewile and is a big fan of Game of Thrones more importantly He joined us you can find those on the ringers Twitter You can find that on my Twitter on Andy's Twitter on Mallory Rubin's Twitter on Jason Concepcion's award-winning Twitter Best in the game Yeah Talk the Thrones will be back Sunday night

After Game of Thrones ends on the East Coast And as soon as the scenes from next week are over We jump on there we break down everything you need to know Everything you didn't know you need to know And And we're here today. We're talking about some of the news coming out of the TCA's this week. I'll talk a little bit about Insecure.

And we have Justin Charity joining us to talk a little bit about Ozark. It's amazing to me. And Cucks. This is two topics near and dear to your heart. I'm fascinating. I almost want to, to be clear, we're going to talk about Ozark for people who have not seen it, basically. I'll have Justin on again later. Because I have not seen it.

And it's fascinating. fascinating to me. Like, I almost don't want to engage with it because I'm so enjoying the meta-narrative of a show that briefly appeared DOA in terms of its critical reception. And secret truth is, people just kind of like it. I've seen some blog posts that are like the secret summer hit. Yeah. No, the Deep State tried to sync this show. I know.

And they couldn't do it. Yeah. Leak your memos. Doesn't matter. America likes Ozark. Well, it's been, you know, we like to sometimes turn our eye towards the business. Oh, by the way, we are a part of the Ringer podcast network. Some podcasts I like on the Ringer Podcasts Network.

Name them. All of them. Yeah, you know, I'm about to make an appearance on another Ringer Podcast Network show. Why don't you prompt that? I can't because I don't know when it's going to air, but I was honored. I am honored. I got the tap on the shoulder to be on House of Carbs. Honestly, the only podcast I've ever wanted to be on.

I'm just biding my time here with you. I'm excited. Greenwald's going to be on House of Carbs. That's on the Ringer Podcast Network. I was on the first episode of our newest podcast, the rewatchables. With Bill Simmons and Amanda Dobbins, we talked about a few good men.

You can subscribe to the rewatchables. Friendo, you were on the first episode of another podcast. Ringer FC, a soccer podcast with Ryan O'Hanlon. Michael Peters will be joining us next week. So we're keeping it busy. You can also hit all the old chestnuts, including binge mode, the NFL show, the NBA show, Mass Man, Big Picture.

Jam session. Achievement-oriented Jamestor, Bachelor Party. There's too numerous to mention, but they're all of a certain quality. The ones that we didn't mention will be tweeted at us. I'm sure. Other than that, shout out to Zach Mack, who's our producer, shaved his beard. And we're all feeling fresh because TCA's keep us fresh.

Because we always get new information about streaming television. And we don't go. No. It's interesting. This happens every year now at TCA, but this is an event where many critics, many national critics and regional critics gather in a ballroom in Los Angeles. Angeles and then bang, bang, bang, the networks come through and they bring talent and they do panels. Executives to talk about the state of things. Upcoming projects and news is broken and narratives are set.

Like, for example, I thought we did our best to torpedo marvels and humans by talking about the trailer, but apparently the knives were out for it. Really? What happened? This can be a double-edged sword thing because they provided an unfinished pilot to the critics. so they would have something to talk about when the cast came out. But apparently had a lot of green screen. Including Ramsey Bolton, right?

Yeah, he's on the show. And so they watched the sort of unfinished thing that had a lot of temp VFX shots. Yeah. And then Marvel being Marvel were just like, are you ready to accept the greatness of this? And apparently they were not, it's always interesting when the room has an axe to grind

and the talent on stage just weren't briefed for it, basically. They weren't prepared for it. So like Anson mounts up there making jokes about how as a redneck he could only be cast as a mute character. He said that? Yeah. And everyone was just like,

but what is the show mean? You're like, you'll get it. Don't worry about it. The one time I went to TCA, I saw that happen at the newsroom panel. What happened to Aaron Sorkin arrived, like all smiles,

and he didn't realize that everyone in the room was looking at him. Was annoyed at him. Yeah. Speaking of Ramsey Bolton, they were looking at him the way the dogs were looking at Ramsey Bolton in his final scene.

So that can happen, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the show is going to be bad. Anyway, all this is to say, the centerpiece of these TCA things has become the yearly address by the mayor of television FX's John Langraff. Yeah. So he is, is he the person who coined peak TV?

He's definitely, he's definitely made it his own. Popularized it. He's been the one, not to say that, he didn't say it initially, or coined the phrase to say that TV's so good now. He coined it to say that this is becoming a bubble and it is unsustainable. And so he has his, his wonks basically email. And I still get these emails every year, just the sheer voluble. volume of scripted television

and what that means. He's got in-house wanks. You got to. 2017, got to do it. So it was interesting to hear what he had to say this year. He is, many ways, the most respected media executive, not just partly because he is by journalists because he's very good at doing this,

but also he's been very pressing about a lot of things. He was sort of the person who was like, in the coming years, there will be hundreds of scripted television shows in production. He was also the one who said that, you know, I think miniseries and anthology series are a way to break up the narrative, you know, and find some, basically do something new, get talent under, you know, get big talent on TV because they only have to sign up for a year. He also, I think this is smart, but he's, the way he chose to ride was, you know, making these exclusive deals with very talented creators and then basically hitching his wagon to them. And so, and we talked about this a few weeks ago, if there's a year where Louis doesn't want to make Louie, they still have him doing better things in baskets. You know, Ryan Murphy produces an extraordinary clip. But with Noah Hawley, if he doesn't want to do Fargo season four, then there's no Fargo season four.

And so then that could be a dip for them in some ways. The thing that really came out to me this year that he said, and this leads into our streaming conversation, is for a while now, he's been taking shots at Netflix. Yeah. And, you know, for their opacity, for not releasing ratings and stuff. this was the year when I think everyone finally understood what he was talking about. And he talked a lot about monopolies. He was talking about the financial fate of this country. But what he was also saying point blank was it's very, very hard for there to be,

for there not to be a monopoly or a duopoly when he is working within certain traditional constraints of signing talent, of making television shows, of putting things into production, of balancing a budget or whatever. I don't actually know if they have to do that at Fox. But how does he do that when Netflix and Amazon? And very soon Apple are just going to be writing checks. Literally for anything. There are in some ways two bubbles, right?

There is the economic bubble of pretty soon you're going to be asking consumers to conceivably pay as much in streaming subscriptions as they are in their already exorbitant monthly cable bill. Well, the idea being if every channel eventually goes over the top, and so you cut the cord from cable, so you're not paying $200 a month, but then you get Netflix, you get Hulu, you get Amazon, you get HBO go, you get Showtime anytime, you get future versions of FX and AMC. Maybe like us, you get film struck, which is super dope. Your bill is almost what it was with cable. Right, to say nothing to the fact that you still have to pay for an internet connection, which often comes with its own bells and whistles. and, you know, the sort of future that you would look at hilariously is that you would arrive back at where you originally started, which is, okay, now we need one ring to rule them all. And I need a box that has all these things in there. And frankly, even now, I am actually noticing, like, it's not annoying.

I mean, like, we live in the Jetsons. But, you know, you're sort of clicking around being like, okay, now I've got to get into Showtime anytime. and I'm out of Showtime, many time, and I'm in O.GP.O. Go. I do miss channel surfing. You know what I mean? I wish that the box had caught up to the guide show start thing. Well, it's similar to what happened with music when, you know, a downsize and I had to get rid of most of my CD collection,

and I basically don't listen to CDs anymore. But I miss just browsing a shelf of CDs that I had and thinking about seeing them, you know, running into things that you had forgotten about. Now we can have, we have access to. everything, but it does feel the responsibility of being like, now I feel like listening to this particular Cure record from 1987, but you have to remember it in the moment. Sure, yeah, that's one thing.

And it would also be like if, you know, Disney has pulled its content or it's pulling its content off of Netflix. And to start its own streaming service. And you've got different, you know, the Netflix originals are only available on Netflix. The Amazon originals are only available on Amazon. Hulu originals are only available. Closed ecosystems. The Good Fight and Star Trek will only be available on CBS.

access. There's this sort of siloing off of stuff. And that is different than the music industry because for the most part, with the exception of a few releases that eventually then do become available largely, you can get what you need to listen to through whatever service you're using. So there's the economic bubble, right? We talked about that. Well, the other aspect that he's often talked about is the creative bubble. Yes, the creative bubble. So this is the part that I found fascinating is the idea that if Apple gets involved, if you've got Netflix involved, you've traditional network television, you've got cable television, you've got premium cable television like HBO Cinemax showtime. That is a lot of demand on possibly a finite amount of talented

people. Look, this is the, if you need, I'm not disparaging the talents of anybody in particular, but just imagine, the NBA is probably too big for my tastes, right? Like, there are too many teams for the amount of good players and good coaches there are. You could have a 15-team league where there would be like no bad games, no bad coaches, and it would just be incredible. That's not an economically suitable model for the NBA, so they don't do it that way. Television, if there were 10 good shows,

or if there were 10 shows, there's no guarantee that they would all be good, but you'd have to imagine that the access, the barrier to entry would be, you'd think that they would go through a development process, et cetera, et cetera. It's interesting to say, I mean, yes, he's been talking about this for a while,

and I think it is starting to trickle down. Like, on one level for the consumer, who goes like going to an all you can eat buffet like it's wonderful you have almost unlimited choices there's a show for every literally every taste every moment of the day but there are only so many great scripts there are only so many stars there are only so many good directors more crucially there are only so many veteran line producers you know you just go down the call sheet and the credits in terms of the talent you need to make this stuff that is an issue but what's also becoming apparent is as we decouple the business from traditional metrics

you can look at the Nielsen ratings and literally not understand what you're looking at anymore because a show that I really love like AMC's Hald and Catch Fire like 300,000 people watch that when it's live which is you know, no no shots

or no big-uping ourselves but like we get more than that to talk to Thrones but why does that get four seasons well because if you have to go into the arcane data they make it work. AMC owns the show what does it get them in the future in terms of the library. I heard that one of the oldest studios, legacy studios, their most profitable show of the last few years is a, I won't get into the specifics,

but is a CW show. Now, why? It's not because of the 0.6 or whatever it gets in the demo. It's because the CW entered into a relationship with, yes, Netflix, that prepays rights to have these shows after they air. So basically, they didn't even know what the content of the show would be, they're paying CW $2 million to have it. So then it becomes a widget that is valuable to Netflix in a way that it's in a way that makes it valuable to the CW and blah, blah, blah. We're being almost X out of the equation in their, out of the equation in their expansion. Yeah. That's pretty arcane business stuff.

And again, it doesn't matter. If you like that show in the CW, that's great. You get more of it. But it's very confusing. But all this is to say, I do, I remain really impressed by Landgraf because, he puts in work in an area of the business that would be easy to overlook in such a crazy climate, which is the creative side. Yeah. I came in here ready to make a joke about how just how far in front of his skis Ryan Murphy got when he announced American Crime Story Katrina.

So for people who don't know this, the People versus OJ Simpson, a huge success, critical commercial at the Emmys. When that show is still riding high, Ryan Murphy, the producer, announced we're going to do this again and next season will be Katrina. everyone was like, let's just take a beat on that. Because, first of all, is Ryan Murphy the guy you want telling that story? Second, what is the narrative of this American tragedy, not just a crime story? But they didn't back down. And I was like, maybe this is, you know, I respect Landgraf because he always supports his talent. So even though as it clearly was falling apart, even though they announced Annette Benning and Matthew Broderick and all these names,

then they announced American Crime Story of Versace. coming in ahead of it. They were going to make another crime story ahead of it, one that made more sense. Then I heard, you know, on background, there were showwriters being brought in and showrunners being kicked off, and they had nothing.

Today, today, Chris, they announced that this project, American Crime Story Katrina, has partnered with super producer Scott Rudin who had bought a book called Five Days at Memorial, which is a medical drama about Katrina, a true story. So basically, they swallow,

they pack manned up, another project to make it the series. With Sarah Paulson starring as a doctor. And now they're like, well, Matthew Broderick and Nett Penning, we'll find roles for you in it. But that's how devoted he was to his creators. He was like, you'll just somehow make this work. I won't get down your back. I will, even though critics are beating down the door and smelling blood, basically.

We aren't going to admit failure here. We're going to make this work. This is also reminiscent of, you know, Fox had their up, they're not up front, but their TCA presentation. and Dana Walden talked about how 24 is going to come back, and it might not be about CTO, and it's definitely not going to be about the people who are in 24 legacy. They're just going to take the 24 brand and the 24 concept of the ticking clock, and they think that they can apply to lots of different stuff.

That's interesting. That's interesting, but it's the same thing. There's this quote. I remember a while back, like Max Landis had this talking about the IP idea, and he's saying, like, if you're going out and you're pitching like a kind of Indiana Jones-ish adventure story, they're going to ask you to fit it into, like, could it be the Jack Daniels movie? Like, literally the whiskey movie. This is how these things happen.

And this is what's happening now. So you're having things that are not necessarily like Star Wars, like American Crime Story. I don't think most people think about the words before OJ when they think of this. We'll see what happens at the Donatel of Versace movie show. And the same thing goes for 24. Like 24 people watch because of Kiefer Sutherland and because it was intense. Not because they think, oh, it's like this malleable, like, interesting storytelling. device. It's hard not to be jaded. It's very important, I do think, to just see how it's executed.

The Lego movie was a terrifying, nihilistic idea. I think the movie was really good and really fun. So anything is possible. But it was hard not to be disheartened by Bob Greenblatt. I used to call him in battle. He's not. He's doing great. He's doing great, head of NBC, who got up in front of the critics and said every month, I call Tina Faye and say, why not more 30 Rock. I call. Eric Daniels and the office, more the West Wing. John Wells, ER. More ER. Let's just anything.

And it sounded, I mean, I'm sure it was delivered in a spirit of these are our classics, why not? But it sounds kind of pathetic. It's really hard to launch a show and get people to watch it. I mean, Will & Grace is coming back. So that was his first success. But, you know, and I'm someone who pitched a West Wing reboot very seriously, not to the network, like in a Grantland column.

But it's, it is a smart business play. It goes back to what, you know, to this idea of TV being our familiar friend. We want to know, we want to see our pals. again, we want to see our stories. It's very hard to make Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad. It's much easier to do something that has worked before, but it's hard to be a fan of the medium and find this encouraging. So many stuff comes out of these, the TCA's,

and just in general over the sort of news transom about television, that now I think that it's almost like when you've become too accustomed to a drug. And you're like, so even the news that the Cohen brothers are coming to Netflix with a Western anthology series called The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, I was like, cool. This was really interesting to me. I'm going to get like a Cohen Brothers Western anthology. And I'm excited.

I'm excited for the David O. Russell Amazon show. I'm excited for the David Fincher Netflix show that's coming out in three weeks. But it's like, it's weird. It has like an overall numbing effect because. Well, there's too much. Yeah. I mean, there's too much. The Cohen Brothers thing is really interesting because that was announced last winter.

And it was the first play by Anna Perna Television. and Anapurna for people who know is Megan Ellison, daughter of billionaire Larry Ellison's film company that is almost single-handedly saving Auteur Cinema. She just bankrolls Paul Thomas Anderson. Who else?

I mean, they made Zero Dark 30 in Detroit, right? They deserve a ton of credit. They will put money behind projects that in today's Hollywood might not be supported. So they launched a TV division because everyone does TV. And the first thing they announced

was this Cohen Brothers thing and I asked around and the response I kind of got about it was this is basically them wanting to make a splash as a TV department and they asked the Coen Brothers that they had something

and they would kind of break it into a TV show it was a movie all of a sudden it ends up at Netflix and it sounds like a TV show Yeah and to end this conversation we can end with the Coen Brothers comment on this. We are streaming

motherfuckers. I mean God bless them that is them showing the exact amount of seriousness this deserves and just also how engaged with this they are but it's surprising. You know, let's just, the way to end it is basically the way Langraf did.

He did spend three years up there naysaying and doom and glooming it. This year he walked it back and that this was all going to end soon. But the thirst for this is not ending. And, you know, once Apple gets involved, Apple, the most valuable company in the history of the world again this month, if they want to start throwing millions and billions at this, then that raises. This raises the water level for everyone. It's not going away soon. We'll be back in a couple minutes to talk about Insecure and Ozark with Justin Charity.

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all five items in your box. That's stitchfix.com slash watch to get started today. Stitchfix.com slash watch. Okay, Greenwald, we're back really quickly because you've been, I haven't gotten a chance to catch up on season two of Insecure, and it just got renewed for a third season. We have Justin coming on to talk about Ozark at a minute or two. Tell me why I should be watching Insecure right now. First of all, I'm a little salty.

You got backup in your attempts to convince me to watch something. This is just, I'm just a guy sitting in front of a microphone, sitting in front of another guy. while another guy twiddles a keyboard making a case for insecure. Insecure made the leap, man. We both enjoyed the pilot. I think we watched one or two last year. I watched the whole season. We gave it positive.

We didn't talk about it again. We gave it positive feedback, and then we kind of didn't talk about it anymore. And I don't even think that was a shot at the show. It didn't, in some ways, it didn't feel like it forced its way into the conversation, or we watched it at our own pace. This show made a major leap between season one and season two, and it did it in the best possible way, which is just becoming a more confident

and clearly realized version of itself. So for people who haven't watched it, it is the brainchild of Issa Ray, who is a, she made some web series that were quite popular, and she stars in this. She writes a lot of it. It's about a young woman trying to make it in Los Angeles.

I should add a young woman of color because that's one of the most important aspects of the show in a really beautiful and I would say an understated way. The show is, It's set in Los Angeles, but it's set very much in Englewood, and the show makes Englewood, and everyone on it look incredible. A lot of that goes to Molina Matsukas, who's the director of a lot of the episodes. She's like Beyonce's style.

I don't even understand what her role. She's like Beyonce's creative director often. She directed the formation video and a bunch of other things. This show looks like nothing else on TV, and it looks terrific. But beyond that, it is so enjoyable, especially this season, which, you know, Last season, the character of Issa was sort of struggling in work, and in life, she had a boyfriend who was in a bad state, sleeping on the couch. She cheated on him. They broke up.

So this season, they are both in what the character Issa would term their ho-phases, which makes for some very, very funny television. But it's just hitting all those buttons that we have been coming back to a lot recently. We mentioned it when we were talking about glow, which is, I'm here. I'm here for these people. I'm here for this world. I'm here for Issa's friend group of supporting characters, all of whom are so clearly drawn immediately that it's just fun and funny to be around them.

You and I, we are both here for Yvonne Orgy, who plays Issa's best friend Molly, who remains one of the funniest characters on television and one of the best performances on television. I just think the show is doing, I think it has become a truly worthwhile, strong, compelling, pleasurable TV show that it's doing some really subtle emotional stuff

that a lot of other shows aren't doing and I love that it's doing it in a way just to come back to it, that it looks so good. You know, we have been praising shows. There's been a trend to praise personal point of view shows purely for their idiosyncratic point of view without really giving much thought to just how this looks as an experience.

I mean just cinematically, right? And I don't even mean to take shots at that whole genre of shows. And whether it's better things or one Mississippi or Louis is the one that started at all, which obviously has a directorial flair to it. But I like that this could be dismissed as a small show because it's about relatively relatable characters and smaller emotions and smaller stakes, but that it looks like the very best television has to offer and that they went for it. I feel like I'm using the kind of language I use when I talk about.

how an indie artist made the jump to a major label and then did it right, took advantage of the studio. That's what Issa Rae did. She's become an even better performer. The writing is even sharper. Going to get you to watch this season. I'm watching. I'm going to check it out. You sold me.

Yeah, I really recommend it. Didn't need to be sold. I just didn't have the time. It is a pleasure. I want to make sure that people watch it, but does it come on before or after Thrones? I think after. Yeah, so definitely watch Talk to Thrones first.

Right. And then watch it. Because look out for us first. I'm going to recommend a show that I've recommended before, that you don't need to worry about when it comes on, because it's on the streaming television platform Netflix.

And to do it, I'm bringing on the JR writer of the dipset Marty Bird Gang, Justin Charity. Justin, what's up? Hello. I need to call in the big guns. Because here's the thing about the Ozarkive. I don't know if it's more like a holler.

It's more like a community that lives in the hills. That seems less cool than a hive. Seal Team 6. Here's my Seal Team 6 of Ozark Watchers. Me? I'm not on the team. It's Justin Charity.

Yeah. It's Jason Gallagher. Ryan O'Hanlon's mom. Shout to Mrs. O'Hanlon. Oh, man. And the drummer from the killers. Yeah, Vinoch. Those are the people who love Ozark the way I love Arzark.

Okay. Yeah. And it's a pretty good squad there. Great summer show. Incredible watch. And so entertaining. And I know you haven't watched yet, but I wanted to bring Justin. because Justin was one of the first people.

I already took it down. I'm going to cede the stage. Let me just say this. I'm excited for you guys to convince me on this because this whole phenomenon surprises me because the response to this show when it debuted on Netflix last month was weirdly uniform.

And in the TV critical consensus community, like this kind of consensus is rare. And the consensus was this is what's wrong with peak TV. It is. They were like, these are more people who took the wrong lessons

from the success of Breaking Bad and Mad Men, another brooding anti-hero, it's blah, blah, well, you know, and I felt very confident. Yeah. Very confident in giving this a miss.

This is what explains me and Justin's pivot to populism. Oh, for sure. Then the rumbling started, and you guys are having the time of your life, so I want to know, how do I become like you? Justin, you take it away, man.

Well, first of all, I'm like a deficient example, right, and so much as I never watched breaking bad. Like a lot of the TV that I think those critics are probably very saturated in is just a lot of TV that I missed. And so I'm not as sort of like set up to be burnt out on this sort of character, this

sort of protagonist. And I think beyond that, I think this is such a, I think Ozark is such a simultaneously like it codes as a thoughtful show, but it's also just very trashy. Yes. And its trashiness is very important to why I consumed it in the manner of fast food. My ears are pricking up. Yeah, this is actually working for me because what I don't, the takeaway I got from the criticism was that it was another self-serious, you know, incredibly soggy, heavy exploration of one man's tortured psyche.

And I'm just kind of over that. But if they embrace kind of pulp insanity, like that. Like if it's fun, on some level, even if the characters aren't having fun, okay, I'm here for this. So, all right, keep going. Justin, I know that you said that, like, you're not particularly saturated by, like, some of the PTV tropes that maybe Ozark is playing with. Yeah. But one of the things I really like about the show is that so often on new shows especially, but in any show you're supposed to have this audience cipher that's like, or this audience proxy that's supposed to be going into this world for you. and they're like, they're scandalized by everything.

They're morally, you know, they're having these moral complications because of what they're doing. And the best thing about Ozark is that almost to a person, nobody skips a beat when shit goes down. It just is like, let's, no, let's do it. Let's go to the Ozarks and launder money. Yeah. Is that a spoiler? No, it's like in the trailer. No, it's in the trailer.

So, yeah, I mean, when it comes to like the pacing and the storytelling, what is it that you like it's weird because like so the show centers around this family it's sort of like these these husband and a wife who are on the outs a little bit and they're two kids and you know if there's anything about the show that I may be um and I should say I finished the show but that I wanted to congeal a bit more is I wanted to see a bit more scenes of the kids um and which is something Some people rarely say about crime shows. Yeah, it's weird. It's like, I think, like, I think that it's the sort of thing that because I feel like I am invested in the family tentatively in Ozark, that I am excited for a season two of Ozark.

You're already on season two. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm telling you, I'm ready. What does this show, I'm going to throw this to both of you guys. What need or what hunger does this show satisfy, even if it's one that you didn't know you had? in your entertainment diet. What is this feed? Financial planning.

Well, because Chris is, I honestly can't tell the parts that are making you excited or not. I can't tell what you're being serious about. Why am I investing in Netflix when I could be invested in the Blue Cat Lounge? Well, it's true. Like a valuable thing is that this show does do the very, the exceedingly practical episode of like, I guess we have to explain what money laundering is and how it works. Do you remember the tension that used to surround Breaking Bad, Andy, where it was like, when is Walt's secret going to come out?

Or even like Mad Men where it's like, when is Don's secret going to come out? Like when it happens on Ozark, they're just like, yeah, my bad, I lied about that. That's actually a great scene. Oh, it's such a great scene. So what you're getting it here is that it messes with our, it's interesting.

So what you're saying is that the show actually actively messes with our peak TV expectations. Sure, yeah. For me. For Justin, it's different because he's not necessarily coming at it, like, oh, this is a Don Draper moment. Can I throw one other thing at you guys? that I've just learned

due to some heavy Googling while we're talking. I can multitask. Just see. I don't mean to be rude. But the creator of the show, Bill Dubuque, is also the mind behind

films like the accountant and the judge. Yeah. So he likes... The judge. He likes clerical work. These are both films that, to the surprise

of literally everyone, got made, and also became like weirdly popular. Like, Chris, we talked about the judge on this podcast. Now, to be fair, not because I saw it in the theater, but because when I was on a plane last year, I saw someone else watching it and saw the scene where Robert Duvall soils himself in Robert Downey's Jr's house. So obviously I'm on Dubuque's team here. But he does see, this guy seems to be able to speak to the viewing public in a way that bypasses the traditional, you know, the coastal elites, you know, the coastal elites. Well, one thing that I guess, you know, you were talking about like critical consensus and, um, you know, You know, I feel like people have glommed on to the idea of, like, Jason Bateman's character in the show being a sort of, like, brooding white guy, anti-hero.

But I think the thing that's important about Ozark is that it is a very precise, it's like a very precise, like, it's a very precise characterization of a cuck. And it is a, like, Ozark from Jump is this, like, fever dream. Now you're talking my language. It's this fever dream of, like, the red pill. Reddit community. And I think that's what's fascinating about the show is that there are people I think who I like read their reviews or I see them tweeting about it and it's like white guys.

Am I right? And like that's the sort of critique of the show. But to me it's like that's the thing about the show that makes the show work is that it is this sort of it's this red pill fever dream of this guy who resents his wife and is sort of like making a mess of his life for really selfish reasons. but the show is self-aware about that. Like, it's not, it's not really trying to mythologize Jason Bateman so much as it's sort of trying to carry that outlook and that mindset to its natural conclusions.

This is a very compelling argument. I really like this. Well, and also the thing that he does in this show is essentially switch tabs all the time. Like switch browser tabs. Because they'll just be like, I'm in a lot of trouble, but I don't really care that much. I'm going to switch tabs and go hang out with this other person. It's never like, God, he's like, there's one part of this show where he doesn't sleep for a little while and he gets a little punchy. But like us today.

For the most part, he's like working the problem. And then like when he gets like in a bind, he's just kind of like, I'll leave. I like this. And I also just to make this conversation come full circle, even though I was once a very proud card carrying member of the critical consensus community, I'm kind of glad that things like this can still bubble up and around that. because, and I don't want to speak for any of the critics that dismissed the show early on. I wonder if some of them have revisited it or, you know, or we'll give the time or spend more time on it. But it's real, that job is essentially, I think, impossible now. I think there are some incredible writers who do their best.

But, you know, you don't get much time to process this stuff. And it's very hard when there are so many shows out there to give each individual exercise the attention that it deserves, right? Because everything you guys are saying about the show, the way you're receiving, it and the little details that make it unique sound incredibly compelling to me and interesting. But I also think those sound like things that might be difficult to discern from one or two screener episodes sandwiched between six other new dramas that debuted last month. Yeah, I just think it's like it has an excellent pilot and then it doesn't slow down once it gets to the sort of destination that it's going.

Justin, who's your sort of non-Bateman-Linney favorite character? Oh, um, Dell. I just, I don't know. It's weird. Like, Dell. I was talking to Alice and Herman. This is the drug executioner. Yeah.

That would be my favorite character. Yeah. Well, I was talking to our colleague Alison Herman. And I think it was like live texting her when I was been watching the show, unfortunately. But like all of the scenes with Dell after a point. And this gets to what I was saying earlier about trashy. All of the scenes where Dell and Bateman are talking remind me of why I loved burn notice. Yeah.

way. I used to love burn notice. And like that's the, that's the dynamic. Like, I get that like, maybe the way that the show is sort of marketed and lit and presented, maybe sort of drape it in this aura of peak TV as it were. But again, it's like there's something that is quasi-procedural, you know, about the way that Bateman and Wendy, or like Laura Lennie worked. through the central. Yeah, and he has like a problem of the episode that he has to solve. And then he kind of just goes about doing it with or without the help of his family. I really like, it's worth mentioning that Julia Garner and Jordanis Piro or Jordana Spiro are both.

The mob doctor herself. They're both really good, man. Jordana Spiro basically, here's the gig. It was like, do you want to be on the show Ozark? You just have to walk from a dock to a bar and say something sassy. So she's the Kenneth Branagh of Ozark? Basically, yeah, she's like, it's home. Just, yeah.

I love her. Look, I really like that you mentioned burn notice because I do think that one of the unfortunately overlooked TV trends of this century was USA's character's welcome run. I mean that. Not by chance. No, seriously. But here's the thing about those shows, and I didn't watch very many of them, and none of them regularly. But here's what they were. Entertaining, dependable, pleasurable.

Did you watch series? I didn't. I never got into suit. But everyone has one that they've, you know, dipped in and out of. I did like burn notice the few times I watched it. I liked Royal Pain. That was one, necessary roughness. I mean, they were boilerplate, but here's a thing. Like, the years at USA was just doing very well with those on cable,

where the years that NBC was completely in the wilderness, precisely because it didn't make shows like USA was making, even though their corporate siblings. Like, the lessons from the last 15 years of TV shouldn't be overlooked. Lessons like, you know, we can challenge the audience, we can have difficult characters, difficult men. But the lesson of TV full stop from the beginning through characters welcome through today is people watch this stuff to be entertained and to fall into patterns with shows,

to watch characters who do things, even if they surprise you with the outcomes, do them in ways that become predictable to the audience. The trick is hiding that, right? But if you're saying, like, it's Jason Bateman hiding tabs and solving problems and then Trudea Hespero walking off of a dock and you know you're going to get that in every episode, it's no wonder it's successful. Any last thoughts about Ozark for the people, Dustin?

Well, okay, so how far? You said you're at episode six, right? Yeah, I'm in episode six. So I was going to probably finish it this weekend. Maybe I'll have you back on. We can do the spoiler. Yeah, I was going to say, the problem with it being the SEAL Team 6 of Ozark fandom is that is just the number of people I can talk to.

The people that are read in. People that are read into the show. It's so limited. Who's read in? All right, well, maybe we'll have you back on really soon just to do. the spoilerific full season talk. We also have to have you back when I watched three episodes and decide that I hated it

and to take back everything that I said. No, you're going to like it. You're going to like it. I'm kidding. I'm sorry. You guys sold me. Good job. Justin, thank you so much for calling in. No problem. Talk to you soon. Thanks guys. Okay, thanks for joining us, Justin Charity. Andy, we talked about a lot of stuff today. We got Game of Thrones. Talk the Thrones is Sunday after the East Coast episode, the East Coast airing of Game of Thrones.

We'll be back Monday to chat. Maybe we'll do a little peaks catch up if we can. We got to. Still my favorite thing on TV. Great. All right. So we'll be back Monday. Talk about all the usual suspects until then. Yeah, keep it real. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. Things change. The weather changes. Your mood definitely changes.

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