The Watch - 'The Handmaid's Tale' Returns, Plus Chvrches | The Watch (Ep. 252)

Episode Date: April 26, 2018

The Ringer's Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the new trailer for 'Venom,' the movie starring the notorious Spider-Man villain, and and Tom Hardy's accent choice (3:00) before reviewing the first episode of Season 2 of 'The Handmaid's Tale' (8:30). Later, Andy interviews the band Chvrches about their new album, 'Love Is Dead,' and making an American record (22:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's investigating some stuff, okay? It's Andy Greenwald. Boy, you know, we were excited for this Thursday show,

we already had a lot of stuff planned. Yeah. We were going to talk about last night's season premiere of Handmaid's Tale, season two. Yep. We were going to talk about Marvel's Avengers Infinity War opening tomorrow. Yeah. And we have an interview with churches.

Yes. Our good friends, the Scottish band, their third album is coming out in just a few short weeks. But last night, something else happened. Today, we're recording this on a Tuesday. Monday night. My timeline's a little screwy. Yeah, Monday night was the Venom trailer came out. I only assume.

that by the time you're hearing this, museum exhibitions have opened. So we'll get to that just a second. I just want to say on the ringer.com, there's so much good stuff to read. Our NFL draft coverage is amazing. Our NBA playoffs coverage is amazing and we'll have stuff on Infinity Wars all week.

We will be talking about Avengers Infinity Wars on Monday. It's just one war, man. You keep saying it's Infinity Wars. But then if it goes on forever, it's just one war that goes forever. There are many battles and skirmishes within the war. I got you. I got you. You see what I mean?

I see what you're saying. We'll talk about that on Monday. You can listen to Recapables Westworld if you want to get your dose of podcasting stuff about Westworld. And, well, you should listen to the podcast. I'm happy it's there. You're happy. Did you listen to me to talk about it? I did on our show.

I have to do it again. And then we will be talking today about Handmaid's Tale, like I said. But first, we guys talk about this Venom trailer. Can you... All right, I want to talk about how Tom Hardy straight up just CGIed his own performance from the drop and put it in this movie, but can you give me like the 20 second, 30 second

recap on what Venom is? Because I have no idea. And here's the thing, you have to understand that to make something this gloriously stupid, you have to start with a kernel of pure, uncut stupidity. Like a symbiote of stupidity, yeah. And I mean, I'm going to say this, and it's, I feel liberate.

telling people this. Thank you for asking me this. I've carried the knowledge of this nonsense in my head for 20 years. Chris, in the 1980s, Marvel had a large comic book event called Secret Wars, where all their heroes teamed up and fought each other. And that became a thing that they did in the movies 20 years later. And while they were on this other planet fighting each other, Spider-Man found a little thing that crawled onto his body and became his new costume

because everything was starting to rebrand as edgy and dark, and Spider-Man had a black costume. that was like alive and bonded with him. He didn't have to get dressed anymore. It sort of lurked up his body. It's good stuff. I think Mac Weldon offers the same product. It's anti-microbial.

And then he had a black costume for a while. And then people were like, now we want the red costume back. And then people are like, cool, what if the black costume was an evil costume? And that's venom. Okay. An evil alien Spider-Man costume that glommed on to somebody else. So is the, the end-present? point here is that eventually Venom will be in a Spider-Man movie.

I honestly, I look at this, and I don't know what the end point is, other than these are end times. Because it was supposed to be a sinister six. What, that was before Marvel got involved. This is the kind of thing where Sony was throwing every wet noodle they had at the wall to try to make one of the properties they controlled pop off. And all of these things were in development. And this literally seems like Tom Hardy was like, okay. And then they were like, well, you were serious about that?

Okay, yeah, we'll make a movie. I'm glad you brought up you was serious about that voice because there's a lot to take from this Venom trailer. It's directed by Ruben Fletcher who did Zombie Land, movie I'm very fond of. Me too. Co-stars, Riz Ahmed. It's a wildcast.

Guy we really enjoy Jenny Slate, a woman who really enjoy Michelle Williams. A queen. Yeah. And Tom Hardy. And Tom Hardy is if you put Tom Hardy in any kind of role where he is acting, First he's going to be like, where's the mask? Yeah.

He gets it. He got his mask in venom. Second, he's going to be like, what's my accent? And he's chosen to do a kind of Ratso-Rizzo meets what? Like Mark Ruffalo and Spotlight kind of? I told you, I want to do my job. I'm a reporter. I follow people that do not want to be followed.

What about the allegations that you recruit the most vulnerable for tests? that end up killing people. You're time to go. I finished, Mr. Brock. Is that a threat? You had to learn how to hide in plain sight. I'm pretty good at it. But you, you suck.

Whoever you are. This is the accent of a guy who learned about the existence of New York City by watching old episodes of Welcome Back Cotter on an 8-inch black and white television. Yeah. This is so wild. And the thing is, why did we not see this coming? Like, as soon as we saw that he was doing this,

we have to remember we're talking about Tom Hardy. I thought in the first teaser, like he was like a construction worker who got captured because he like he, I don't know why. But he's a journalist who is investigating this company that Riz Ahmed has. And as soon as he starts talking,

I mean, this has been sort of my pet peeve for a long time is I think Tom Hardy is one of like the best working actors. But Tom Hardy always has something in front of his mouth. He's the hardest working working actor. Yeah, he definitely always gives himself like two or three hurdles to jump over. Yeah. He needs a challenge. And now he's in this movie and he's like, oh, what do you doing here? I work for the New York Post. I got a taxi medallion right here.

I got a cup of coffee. And then the arc of this is that he becomes a dark Spider-Man with a big tongue in a universe where Spider-Man may or may not exist. And another voice in his head that he gets to talk to on the side, like on the street. This just seems like a thing where they were pitching him. Oh, I was born in the darkness. What are you talking about? He's like, look, you get to do two voices. Okay, all right.

And you get to ride a motorcycle. I was like, oh, here we go. Bing, bang, boom. Maybe you saw me in the Bain movie. Oh, I had the fur coat. I can get you one of those. You know, there are times since I moved to Los Angeles where I really miss the mean streets of NYC. And then there are times when I hear Tom Hardy doing this accent as a journalist.

in the Sony film Venom. And I'm like, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm fine here. This... Oh, you see me? I'm flying over the English channel. You know what I mean?

Time is a construct. What are you talking about? Is that Venom in Dunkirk and in another Christopher Nolan movie? Midnight Cowboy, yeah. Oh, sure. I see. Yeah, I see.

That's good. You're doing some symbiote work yourself with the cannon. Shout out to Jenny. Get that funny, Jenny Slate. It's great. I mean, but all of them, they were like, really?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, sure. So you're in or out on this. Wild out. But super in on covering every detail that leaks from this between from now and until the movie comes out.

I can't. I'll be there on opening night. Let's talk about Handmaid season two. Yeah. Came back last night. Yeah. The first season, it's on Hulu, obviously Elizabeth Moss, lauded series, award winning series. Yes, it was.

And I think here's my impression. there was a huge amount of interest in the first few episodes of this show, and then it kind of leveled off a little bit. Are you using eye statements here? I would say that that is like that would, in terms of the ring or water cooler. Okay. That there are a couple people who were like, man, the whole first season was great. But then there were a few people were like, I punched out after three or four.

The first season ends where Margaret Atwood's book ends. So we are now in the sort of Game of Game of Thrones season success. of an area of like we're going into uncharted territory. There's still a lot of material from the Margaret Atwood book that could be used, especially the stuff about the colonies where they send... Look at you. I did a little research.

Look at you. An Atwood scholar. I did a little research. I'm not going to do that every time. I read a piece that James Ponteausik wrote in the Times about this. And I think it's actually... Did as good a job summing up my feelings about this as I could just repackaged my own,

which is basically comparing this to The Walking Dead. that it's an incredibly interesting idea that is, as it goes on, and especially in this first episode of the second season, it's incredibly challenging to imagine myself wanting to keep watching the show because it is what you are signing up for, for I think what is this,

it's like a full 57 minutes. It's a long one. It's just a really, really, really tough hang, man. And I understand, like, we can talk all about the, the echoes of our current political sociopolitical climate that exist. And I do think that the show is going to get more into how, how like the world in Handmaid's Tale came to be. Yeah.

They've been doing these flashbacks to June Osborne's life before this coup. But yeah, it's just, it's brutal. It's a brutal show. And it's a show that I feel like really, really, really squeezes as much as it can out of its most wrenching moments. And it was just a tough hang for me. This is a tough show to discuss because I agree with you. I don't think I am going to continue much further with the show,

but I want to add some important caveats to that. I think the show is incredibly admirable. I think it is incredibly well made. I think that it seems to be, from my vantage point, hitting its targets. It is accomplishing, they are making the show they want to make. And I think anytime you can see that, you can see that continuity of vision and performance and production design and direction and execution, that should be commended. That's very, very hard to do. I think Elizabeth Moss is a goddess, and I think she's one of the great performers of our time. And again, the show

knows how to use her to maximum effect and her face, the things that she can do without speaking. and I think that the show should be lauded for the way that it steers into some very uncomfortable skids that certainly echo our moment in ways that are just frankly intolerable for me to sit through. I think there are moments. I think the Walking Dead analogy is a really good one for two reasons. One, after watching the season premiere, there were moments when I just basically felt enough. I mean, it is, there's a, there's a version of this where I look at it and I feel like it's misery porn. It is, it is agony.

The opening sequence, and this is a spoiler if you haven't watched the first episode of the second season, but the sequence at Fenway Park made me feel like I was watching Hostel. Yes, I couldn't watch this. But I'm glad you brought out that sequence because that speaks to the other point I want to make. And it's not like the stuff that comes after it is that much lighter. No. Well, I mean, when the woman has changed. chained to a stove and has her hand burned.

That's lighter. Right? No, I mean, no, it's, you can't make jokes about the show, nor should you try. The reason, the thing about that sequence that I wanted to go back to and the larger point about The Walking Dead is that they are, these shows are very representative of the moment we're in in television as through financial circumstance and the opportunity provided by streaming services and the voraciousness of the audience. and I would say to a large degree the adventurousness of certain segments of the TV watching audience.

We are seeing TV shows that reject a lot of fundamental things about TV, basically saying that we can take emotions or attitudes, visions that generally only exist in movies, and we can apply them to television. And I would, I mean, in a very, like, a small amount of movies. Like, this is not like a kind of vibe you see in any old movie. And the reason those exist in movies and are not many movies is because, there is a limited appetite for some of these things. Yes.

Because a movie can transport you to a world for two hours and then leaves you shaking and gasping and stumbling out of the theater rocked by where you've been, but ready to take that experience and slot it into your own experience in the world. Yeah. And reckon with it.

These shows are attempting to make serialized entertainment of multiple episodes and multiple seasons out of these extreme sensations. Can you think of another example besides Walking Dead and Hamas that you're thinking of? You know, I think first season of The Leftovers was chasing that to a degree in a very different, it was different, but in the same way that it was holding your head down in something unpleasant and forcing you to reckon with it and sit with it. I think a more positive, to my mind, to my critical mind version of that would have been a show like Rectify and Sundance,

which had a very, very slow-paced, very atmospheric, vibe, melancholy that you recognize from independent in cinema and then stretch that out for another seasons. Gamora would be another one, the Netflix, you know, or the Sunday it's version of it. Again, to the credit of Elizabeth Moss and Bruce Miller and the other producers involved in the show, they are aware of the fact that TV, I mean, no one wants to think this. They all want to think that we're working in this advanced art form, but there are certain things that make sense for an art form that goes on and on and on and that's to live with you in your home, and one of them is escapism.

Escapism exists in television for a reason because you have to spend time with it. people want, you generally have to create a world that people want to spend time in. Or, you know, there's always an infamous joke about the network note being like, can my hero have a win here? Yeah, right. There's a reason they make that note. So why do you think the version of dystopia that we see in so many other places doesn't work here? Well, just to finish that other thought, that's why in the first season, the thing that we

criticized it for, the pop songs at the end, the you go-girl moments, they were there for a reason to leaven this misery, you know, and to lighten it to some degree. They tried that with the Fenway Park sequence. They're playing Kate Bush during this sequence in Fenway Park, and it's discordant. And again, I think they did things correctly. This show sustains a look maintained that was created by Reed Morano in the first season. It's very well directed this episode. It changes the status quo in a way that you want a second season to do.

It hits its marks. That's the thing I keep coming back to. But I can't do it. And maybe that makes me a bad fan. or a weak viewer or something. I'm trying to think of what the darkest thing is that either of us watch right now. That sustains, I mean. That we're just like, yeah, routinely, like, I want to get back into this.

I mean, the terror is pretty like, I'm with the terror and that's pretty. But that's limited, right? It's not going to be. It's limited, but it's also, it's got a certain, I mean, I think the fact that it's set in the past has something to do with it. I think that it still is trying to maintain a certain, it's like a, it's like a, it's like a, a drawing room drama. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of guys sitting in captain's quarters being like,

should we go forward or should we go back? I love it. Yeah, but like, and they're going snowblind and like running out of food and stuff like that, but it's still, that part is fascinating.

Yeah. And there's a certain mechanics to it. I found that the endowed sequences in handmaids are so excruciating to watch, partially because I don't know necessarily, and I'm sure that down the line, maybe there's more Lydia stuff to come. Maybe there's more like,

yeah, they're going to do this stuff. But watching it, just sitting there and watching it and watching this like long drawn out five-minute sequence that ends with end-doubt handcuffing a woman's hand to a stove is like, I just am like, I don't, I can't, I don't have it in me. Yeah, and I think also context matters. I mean, I think the show got a lot of attention and rightly so for its dystopic, it's dystopic vision at this particular dystopic moment in our society. But the flashbacks in this episode, for example, that dealt with something that is extremely real and well, observed, this tension that all parents feel, but particularly working mothers feel, between

being the responsible parent and being responsible to themselves and to their job, and then how that would be spun in an increasingly theocratic society. I thought that was well observed, but we live in this, we can't pretend that we don't live in this world right now. And much like with some news or political blogs or whatever, I can't. My meter is filled up on that right now. and no matter how well you've done this, my appetite has changed at the moment. But that's a personal thing. There are many people who have,

who seem, not who seem, there are many people who enjoy this show and can ride with it. Yeah, yeah. It would be weird if it changed its tone dramatically. But the other thing to say is, unlike Walking Dead,

the show seems to be headed towards some revolutionary, um, revolutionary type vibes and setting. That is actually the future for the show I don't know how many seasons, and James actually wondered about this as well, which is just like how much longer can you sustain something like this. But the more that this show takes place out of the red capes and bonnets, I think probably is what augurs for its longevity. I agree. I think, yeah, it's funny that we both seem negative about this. But a season three, which pairs those aforementioned feminist pop songs with Elizabeth Moss literally throwing bombs and tearing down this world, that is a different show. and maybe it's the kind of show you only earn if you do this.

But, I mean, I got to be honest, the microphone. I would rather watch that show. All right. We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and we will be back with Andy's interview with the band Churches. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Thomas's English muffins. Sometimes there's a podcast, and sometimes there's a muffin. Sometimes.

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teams can help you and your team achieve even more. Microsoft Teams and Office 365, visit office.com slash teams to learn more. And we're back. I'm about to go into a conversation. I had with the members of one of my favorite bands. Churches with a V. These guys are incredibly kind, friendly, fun to talk to, and generous. They are the people responsible for that music you just heard,

music they composed for the Andy Greenwald podcast, which I know is Chris Ryan's favorite podcasts after the five that he also does for the Ringer Podcast Network. It was great to talk to them again. We haven't spoken since Lauren was on the podcast back in the Grantland days. They are about to release their third album, Love is Dead, out May 25th on Glass Note Records. It represents kind of a departure,

for the band. It is still gloriously heady synth pop, but this is on a much, much larger scale. They worked with super producer Greg Kirsten. They co-wrote with him. The songs are not shy about their hooks or their ambition. But because these three are from Glasgow, they can't help but being very modest and very fun and friendly to talk to. So let's get into it. This is my conversation recorded a week or two ago with the three members of churches, Lauren, Martin, and Ian. This is choose your own adventure. This is whatever, this is the ringer's number one podcast about Louisiana politics. This is, I hope you've done, you've done your reading.

Well, I watched Trevor Noah having done his reading. That's how we all learn. I feel like Trevor Noah and John Oliver have done the reading. And they're the kids that came to class having done the reading. I'm like, crap, I need to go do it. But what if they didn't? What if we just, I think they could really con us if they wanted to use their powers for evil. To be fair, I would probably, you know, anything either of those guys say,

I just instantly believe it. That's what I'm saying. And I do like, I do wonder, I'm like, Trey don't know, he's got a lot of shows. How can he have read? Does he have time to have read all these books? I think he does because he seems really, really smart. I think that's.

And I'm like, he could probably read like the entire works of Tolkien in about two hours. This is dangerous. This is a dangerous way of thinking. Yes, isn't it? It starts. I think only Ian surviving the apocalypse. I was like, oh, Treve. If you don't already know, I assume we started.

I am so happy to be joined by Lauren, Ian and Martin from the wonderful band Church's new album, Love is Dead, out May 25th. I have no idea when we're going to be posting this podcast, so let's just talk generally about time and space and history. That could have been in the past. That could have all been in the past. Yeah, Trevor Noah two years ago. Could have already led the revolution against his ignorant viewers. I'd be laughing at all of you. We have many things to talk about. I'm so happy to have you guys here. But right before we started recording, Lauren said that you guys met Dennis Rodman. And I feel like since he's playing a pivotal role and geopolitical action. Indeed.

Well, Met is a strong word. We stood near in a room. Good idea. And I don't know. Like, I feel like my, like, there's like kind of a band code of ethics or something for how you deal with people in a backstage-type area. And it was at the basketball and we were in the bar bit. So do it to others as you would want. Yes. And in that moment, like, I don't want to bother him.

But my dad was a huge, huge basketball fan in the 90s. So I remember, like, him taping games at like 4 in the morning and getting up in the middle night to watch them. So I have a really bizarre knowledge of that era of American basketball. So I was like, oh, like, my dad would be so excited by this. I have to like do something, but then I didn't want to bother him. So we just creepily took a selfie with him far away in the background. Because I don't want to do it so close to him because that's disrespectful as well. And I don't want to take a photo of someone because that feels disrespectful. I think there's being too polite. Yeah. He's kind of like further down near a buffet and we're like, could you imagine my surprise when Lauren is like, yes. Oh my God.

That's Dennis Rodman. And I'm like... Did she start rattling off rebounding statistics as well, aka the worm, known for his time of the bad boys of the Detroit Pistons? I guess, you know,

some of the political choices in recent times have led to differences between myself and tennis. So it's like probably best that we don't get into that right now when everyone's just trying to be at the ball game, you know?

Let me circle back to that because you guys mentioned the Code of Conduct backstage. And again, I actually have prepared questions, but this seems right. Backstage is generally as an interloper backstage, as I have been lucky enough to be many times,

is generally awful, even from people who are friendly, because I am paralyzed by the same thing, Lauren, that you're speaking of, which is, I'm not supposed to be here. Those beers aren't for me. Those are their real friends. That's their mom or anything. So I don't know how to behave, but there's this ritual where everyone is led back and then led out.

You're in it. It's your backstage now. So how do you approach these interactions? Are you talking about when we're actually in our own backstage or when we're in other people's backstages. Well, that's a great way to make my question two questions. I think if somebody were to come into our backstage, I would want them to act in such a way that they felt relaxed.

Okay. And they were at home. And they could grab a beer if they fancied it. Good. Some people definitely take that too far, though. They do. They do. There is a fine line.

But I think that if you did that in somebody else's backstage, it would also make people feel relaxed. Whereas if you're like, oh, I don't want to, you know, is that okay if I, it's like, well, and I guess, I don't know. Can we say that? that it's like a, like, I don't know, it gets you, it's kind of weird because you can go in and kind of feel what the culture of a band is from their backstage and stuff. And we have a very smart, wise tour manager who knows that if there's some grip and grinning

to be done, you create a tear where there's one escape room for the band. Well, a room to escape into, not an escapers. Oh, I thought you were all playing an escape, in a little bit of an escape room after every show. And then there's the main area, so she'll kind of funnel in the folk that, and then, you know, if there's people that you kind of sort of know, but you don't really know that much, There's always a get-out clowns. People aren't supposed to know this stuff. They're going to know.

But you guys have been performing live enough now that it must be regimented because I imagine at the beginning of your careers in this band or previous bands, you give you're all on stage. The last thing you want to do is be in a receiving line like you're just at somebody's bat mitzvah or something. Because then you have to stand there and you're sweaty or whatever and you have to say, oh, this is so-and-so from so-and-so and you pretend you know them and etc. I guess we try and do before the show if possible for actually legitimate reasons that I have. had a vocal coach who told me that if you talk lots after the show, that's when you really screw your voice up,

because you're supposed to do the warm downs, and then you're kind of fine. It's also a great excuse. I was going to say that absolutely alive, but I love it. Our, like, God-level juror managers, like, she's like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, Lauren has to go on voice rest after the show. And then they're like, I don't know, I saw her shouting at the TV in the bus. I don't think when she's on voice rest. She's yelling at, like, contestants for American.

Just great for your voice. I saw her drinking Koso and, like, sculling a beer. I don't know. talking about. At least you don't get caught in the karaoke bar at 5 in the morning Oh yeah? Who was that?

I think it was Sam Smith. Oh, did he get caught? And he was like, I think that he like tweeted out that he was sick and he couldn't come out and meet all the fans. And then like it's sick of being bored by them more like. Maybe he had a second win.

That's true. And I understand like there's like you know like at the end of the day I'm like people are people you know. Like sometimes like maybe someone's had a terrible day. Maybe they got dumped. Maybe their uncle done. Maybe they don't, like, they're not in the emotional space to do that right now.

But you can't really say that. So maybe it was like, I'm not well. And then he went to get absolutely mad with it in the karaoke fight. But why can you say that? Sure they can say that. I've had a really tough days. Well, maybe you don't really want to talk to people about it, you know? Can't do the uncle thing again.

The latest is that your vocal coach told you that. He did, he did. But there's a disadvantage, I think, almost to being a friendly band. Because at a certain point, people are going to take advantage of that. And if you had, like, been thought about this and said, well, we're going to reach a certain level. and play to this many fans around the world. So from the beginning, we're just going to be raging pricks. Then we'll have all this free time to eat pizza and whatever.

Yeah, we'll also have all this free time to have like another job. Well, and I think it's a balance. I feel like it's an exchange of respect that you should be thoughtful and respectful to people, but then vice versa. And we're lucky that most of our fans are like really cool and they're really respectful and really thoughtful about that kind of stuff. But, you know, occasionally, like once I was here, actually, We played at the shrine and I was really sick.

Like, it was a proper, like, push it, push the voice out thing. And I sat in a drip in the hotel room and I got, like, steroid injections in my butt and stuff. And then, like, after the show... The glamorous life. Yeah. So after the show, I was like, oh, my God, I need to go sit down. I'm so dizzy. I had to keep crouching down during the show.

It was bad. And then I was going in the bus, and then I heard somebody, like, when I was like, sorry, can I guys have a good night? And I went in, and then somebody, like, shouted at me. They were like, oh, you forgot where you come from. You were taught terrible to your fans. And I was like, I was sick before. Don't color on that. And I always just sounds like,

oh man, sometimes you're like, you're never going to please everybody, you know? And in that moment, I'll say, well, if I do this now, there's like,

100 people at here, which is great. But if I do that, then it means there's no show in Arizona tomorrow and that's not cool. And just escape to the sweet release of a private steroid shot again.

Just like, come, come, dark in this. Generally, we have very, very nice fans. I think I have a theory that,

that bands fans are kind of reflected in how they are, how they conduct themselves and stuff like that. I mean, you do get lots of really famous people who are assholes and very successful and have fans. But I wonder if the fans are also assholes.

I think that once you get to a certain size, I think it's unrealistic to expect everyone that likes your music to be just like you. Yeah, that you would like. Your core fan base, often you see that artists' core fan base to hold the same, at least the same kind of ballpark values as the artist does. Yeah, if you think about how you, like,

I think about like Katie Perry or whatever I'm like well there's things that she talks about in the way that she conducts herself and it's all kind of about kindness and inclusivity and like all those things and I do think that does a trickle down effect to the fan base and you're kind of setting

the tone I guess kind of like being in a club or something I'm like you're setting the tone for the fan club because you're president of your own fan club but I also think that the idea of like putting on the act of being a rock and roll monster or something the fandom for that has waned I think too because now being a fan of a fan of a band

or an artist involves almost a 24-7 fandom. So you have to see, so the mask has to drop at some point now. And I think that before, maybe if you liked a band that was famously rude or something, it's like you just turn on their show for the hour you're at their show and then you move on to the rest of your life. Now, with you guys, people are following you, hopefully not physically, but on... Not all the time. Not all the time, but, you know, on various socials and et cetera.

Plus, that's funny when, yeah, I try and not go on the internet that much. I think there's a lot of good things on the internet, a lot of bad things. Great attitude. I agree with that, except for podcasts. guess. You should always go. I've got this little app on my phone that tracks the amount of time you're on your phone. And you can exempt certain apps. So I've exempted music and podcasts and, like, FaceTime because I use it to speak to my mother and things like that.

But the rest of it is kind of crazy when you clock up how much you're on that stuff. And then just weird things. Like somebody tagged me in a picture of me having lunch. And I was like, oh, that's not good. And then that's weird. And I'm actually, if that's going to happen, I don't even know that that's happening. No. I need to just like not and then be eating my eggs, you know.

You get all sorts of weird ones like that. I remember once somebody tagged me across an arena. I was at a 1975 show, and someone had managed to pick me out from the other side of Madison Square Garden and zoom in on me. And then I was, like, checking my phone, feeling really, like, freaked out by the fact

that someone at the cross-in-a-oh, you noticed while you were there. So it was just, like, feeling the red dot on your head from, like, a born movie. God, that's interesting. It could be weirder than that. I think one day we came into this, like, last year we were writing, and it came in, you were like, oh, did you go to the, did you go to the theater last night? And I was like, yeah, how did you know it was last night?

And then you were like, well, people tagged us. And there's like a picture of me and my mate, like, in intermission, being like, blah, blah, blah, and eating sweeties. Had you apologized that you couldn't do something with them? And then they had found out of that. No, I think it was the. My vocal coach says I need to rest. It was the Oscar's Exversion of, was it Othello?

Oh, that's a good reason. Is it not Hamlet? Hamlet. It was the Oscarized expression of Hamlet. and the tickets were all gone, I felt bad because I had ones and you didn't. Well, let's not have any more band ruptures now over Shakespeare of all things. It's okay. It's okay.

It's a very high. It's such a classy band. You actually, this alluded to the fact that you were recording in this country, and I believe, are you all mostly living here now? Is that correct? Or you were during the recording? Yeah, for the time being. Not doing that just to like echo, geotag you for future stalking.

What I mean is you have more or less moved to this country at a really special. time in this country's history. Great timing, guys. Well, we were like, got to get away from this Brexit nonsense. And then we came here and we're like, we've been Brexited. Literally, it's just as bad in the UK. Yeah. So I was like, in my mind, geographically, being in New York because makes a lot of sense for work right now. Because it's halfway to here or to London. And these two guys were already there and we'd like imported her humble. little studio from one industrial estate in Glasgow to another industrial estate in Lake Bushwick and a house.

I still love it because it's so new. Do I love the winter? No, do I love that it's snowing in April? It snowed today. Right? I definitely don't love that. But there is something special when it's so fresh, like living there. Does it, I mean, obviously you've all spent a lot of time in New York prior to recording

the record there, recording the record in this. country, but does it change the tenor of the recording just being in a different place? Because I think I remember when we first spoke, Lauren, that you talked about recording, was this equipment in, is it Ian in your flat or in your home initially? Yeah, we had a studio in Glasgow. It's kind of a basement flat. Right. None of us have ever actually lived there, but it is one of the friends. But just in case you could.

Dave is our main, our backline tech. And also a composer had shared the apartment with Ian and they'd had a studio each. And then David had a bedroom. in the corner. And then on the second record, there was too much gear, so poor Dave moved out. So what does it mean for churches to make an American record or to be an American band? I think it probably does make a difference in lots of small ways. I think that still, wherever we are in the world, I think when it's just the three of us, the kind of core, right? In fact, the dynamic is kind of unchanged. I think it feels like

that says, that's what we do in a room. Regardless of where we are, it's going to come out sounding like us. but I'm pretty sure that it's different in lots of different ways. I mean, we worked with Greg out here, Greg Kirsten out here in L.A. And that obviously had a massive effect on the way that the music turned out because it was like having another member of the band

like an amazing keyboard player in the band and he fitted so well into our existing dynamic. Yeah, I want to talk about that dynamic, which is obviously different on this record. Greg Kirsten, who has produced many, many terrific bands and collaborated. He's done all right for himself. He's fine.

Don't shed any tears for him. I think he's going to be all right. He has a place to live other than the studio, is what you're saying. Actually, he does live in his studio. There it is. It's in his basement. I was just thinking, like, on that, we were, I think we were quite protective of still making a British sounding record.

I know that I certainly was in the back of my mind, and I thought about it a lot, was that I didn't really want to do that thing. You know, British band moves to the USA makes overblown rock record. You didn't want to make your rattle and hum. Right. I mean, you said it, but I didn't. No, you guys love all bands equally and respectful of everyone. It's a great documentary.

It's a really well. I mean, it's overblown for sure. But it made a big impact on me. It did. Not so much on me. It has on people, yes. It hasn't had an impact on people. Who are alive in the world, sure.

But the Greg thing, it was a really easy decision to work with him because everything that he does. us is so UK-centric. Like, Adele, Lely Allen. He also wrote the best OASA song in 20 years, the Liam Gallagher single. Sorry, I thought he never wrote an Oasis song. Do you want to know something funny about that? I'd love to know something.

Everything funny about that. Begin now, please. So he played that song to us before it came out and before this big resurgence with Liam. Yeah. And when the song was over, I just turned around to him. and it's like, you don't know what you've done. It's all coming back now.

He unleashed. You have no idea what you just done. From 5,000 miles away. I really hope that no Gallica hears you come in. Oh, me too. That would be my dream. I mean, if I could, I mean... Incidentally, I went to see Liam Gallagher after the fact at Terminal 5 and really enjoyed it.

So you worked with him. You co-wrote on some songs. He produced the record. When I first heard you were doing that, I was very interested because in my mind, completely unformed, don't actually understand how songwriting works. Mine, I assume that people would work with someone like Greg to add hooks, whereas your songs, sometimes there are too many hooks. Like, that's never been a problem for churches. Some of those songs, especially on the first record, there's just, I think you're done, and then there's more, and then there's the third

chorus hiding behind the other two in the bushes somewhere, it jumps out and surprises you. So when I, yes, and so I finally, when I listen to the new record, what he seems to have done, and you can explain the reality behind this, he seems to have stripped some things away, and it's, I don't want to say pure, but there's a swagger in some of these songs where there aren't three choruses, there's just one chorus.

Really good one. One really good one, and wait for it, and here it is, and it stands with the strength of its own conviction, and so you fall into that. And it's a different vibe, but it's interesting. When I think of someone co-writing or producing, I think of someone adding,

but it sounded almost as if he stripped away. Well, one of the cool things about what, Greg, and this was part of why, it worked as a dynamic was that he doesn't really get his hands dirty with that. Certainly with us, I think he knew that we were particularly strong in that area. And especially like kind of toplining or like spontaneous melody is something that I take really seriously. And it's like the cornerstone of what I can bring to the band and what and how we collaborate is like that's the way it's been from day one. And he doesn't really get involved in that stuff until you hit a wall.

And that happens in the studio. When we hit a wall, sometimes when we would be on our own, and that would just be the end of the conversation and we could move on to another song. But suddenly there's Greg there to say, I see where you're going with this. How about you try this instead? And that would just, it was like someone unlocking the door

and you'd be a way off again. Yeah. Having someone that special, like in terms of his musical language and his understanding of our band, was extremely exciting. I wonder also if that's, dynamic between the three of you and him was slightly different because not only have you worked extensively just together and produce things yourself, but one of my favorite things that your band does is when you do these covers that you've performed on various, you know, radio programs or video things. Recently you have this cover of my favorite Beyonce song, X-O, which is just...

How was that the most massive song in the entire world? I still don't understand why it isn't. It's the most beautiful emotional song and you did it justice and found the little hidden parts of it that make it special, I think. But to do that, the cover you did of the Arctic Monkeys song, which I prefer to the original. There's a story behind that one. Oh, really? Rough. Yeah. Don't you mean absolutely blind drunk still?

Still? Yeah. Behind that beautiful video. That was great. Is this why I had to change my technique? Yeah, it was like breakfast radio in Australia. You've seen too much Shakespeare the night before. Yeah.

Well, yeah, and it was just one of those like, normally I'm really well behaved on tour. But it was like the first time we've been on a festival in Australia. like the touring festival and there was like the frightened rabbit were there with other Scottish people and like Martin had organized a little day out for us all in Sydney and like it was really nice we went on a little boat and then just obviously shit-faced and fast forward to like a karaoke bar at like two in the morning and then I remember Sam Smith's in there hiding from photographers I still hadn't finished the arrangement for the track I definitely must have been quite smashed because I know that like there was a kind of guy being really a douchey in the bar to one of the other girls that was in the group and our manager went in to get it to stop because he's a good guy but then he definitely took it too far and then drunk me came back from the toilet and saw this free developing and I was like no you go that way you go that way and then I'm like that's really unsafe I don't think I should have been doing that like getting in the middle of a tuss on being like in an Australian pub you get outside and you go up the stairs fast forward to like 8 30 in the morning where I'm like eh well you were doing that right

check this on it after I think we'd gone out in Sydney Harbour and it was lovely we must have started drinking about midday don't day drink this is why this is how And continued drinking to around. Ian and I left around one. It was about one. Because we decided that, oh my God, we haven't finished the arrangement for the Arctic Monkers cover. And when I say I haven't finished,

I mean, we were probably about halfway there. And we're just sending it back and forward from our hotel rooms and communicating by text. Yeah. And finished that whole arrangement from like 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. Passed out, not knowing what it stayed. It was in rocks up to triple J the next day. And we could throw this up because I have it up here.

And maybe the still they've chosen is telling. Because when I watch it, there's no way, but you look a little bit like staring at the middle distance. The rabbit in the headlights. Can I get through this? I do maintain, I'm like, had I left earlier, which would have been a smarter thing to have done. I'm like, you know, something bad could have happened. That fight would have happened. Gamble would, like, he's a, I thought you were nervous.

I did notice the shaky hands. The shaky hand is definitely alcohol-related. We do like one of those, like a campaign. And then I get, like, whoa, that was the day. I'm going to do that. I'm doing going to call you this beautiful, like, exploration. I think it did add to the melancholy of my delivery. Yeah, that's what it is.

That's what real champions do. Then, like, maybe, because our manager used to be a bouncer and he doesn't take that kind of shit from people. And I'll say, oh, no, you would have, like, had that guy in a half Nelson and he'd be in the clink. So it was probably good that I was there to write him right on his back, like, whatever ending story. Yes, you're heroic on a number of levels here. The reason I brought it up was to get that story, which was worth it. But also that I feel like a good producer's mentality would be to strip songs down and then piece them back together again under various states of sobriety. But to talk to someone like Greg and have him there too, is that generally what the process is?

Or maybe tell me otherwise. Do you know one of the things that I think that Greg really brought to our creative dynamic is that he knows when things are done. Like I don't think that we tend to like work into things way beyond the point where they're done, in my opinion. Like sometimes we overwork things. And I think, and maybe that's why we've got like so many hooks and hooks after hooks and extra choruses that, you know.

And that's like a signature of what we do. And, you know. It almost comes from a place of anxiety though. Like certainly on the first record, the whole white half one chorus when you can have three years because it was last chance to learn for all of us in a way.

Right. And we were making this record suddenly overnight after pushing a rock up a hill for many years. all of us overnight there was this attention

on what we were doing and when we were making that album we were kind of aware of that and we'd written most of the songs but we'd tooled them to within an inch of their lives because it was kind of an all or nothing moment for us in terms of being professional musicians

it felt like it I mean I don't know you probably remember more clearly than I do but there was a YouTube clip of you guys performing lies I think that suddenly we saw a first ever show we saw in New York and I was like this is what many of us us, we were instant messaging like, oh, this is what I was waiting. I was looking for this.

Thank you. I put a Google, I'd ask Jeeves 10 years ago or something and finally my search result came back. Jeeves came back from the dead. He literally carried it on a tray. It took a long time. But when was that? Was that 2012? So that was 2012 and we put that song on Lizzie from Miss Mistsr's blog, Neon Gold. Yeah. And it was like a free download on SoundCloud. blogs and then it was like a day jeezed me right right yeah you had did me

without it and it was like the night before and in 24 hours it was the kind of attention that we didn't know was possible and then we we had to like build up to that gig because suddenly there was all these people interested in our band trying to book the band we couldn't play live we'd never tried to play live

in fact the whole concept of our live show and how we would do it was just pure pub theory it was like us in talking about how we make this super lean system where we would like control. I love that.

Tell me more about that. It's all these years of studying music technology and, okay. But we would go to the pub and theater. We're not in the pub all the time. It sounds like we're always in the pub. Right.

But, you know, not to sound like... Maybe you're a pub adjacent sometimes, right? There was a pub within... Well, it is flat, though. There's like more pubs than there are people. How we would get all these analog synthesizers and make them talk to each other

using one laptop and just see if we can make it work with three people. and that that shows the very first church's gig. And some guy with a camera was just like randomly shot this cool footage and we used it and we put the track under it and we were away. So this shouldn't work, right, on some level. So this is what I'm curious about because from the outside, you see that video, in hindsight it all worked quite well, right?

I mean, you met each other, you had the hooks, you had the desire, you put the song in the right place, people saw it and it scaled. You know, it doesn't, I imagine it doesn't seem totally unreasonable. on some level to the three of you from the inside of the machine. But just from working together in this basement to, you know, recording the record in LA and playing increasingly bigger and bigger gigs and basically appearing to be ready for each level up of your career if you'll allow it. What an illusion that was?

Well, okay, so tell me that. That was the whole first like three years of the band was just like smooth and train. And in hindsight, it must have looked super slick, but it was not slick. behind the curtain, you know, it was like, we were people, it doesn't matter how many years are like going to uni and studying music or playing in bands. I toured this country five times in the Twilight Sadd in a van. Like, none of that prepared me for the first 18 months of this band,

not in any way because it was a whole other thing. And we were holding it together, yes, but was it difficult? Just. Absolutely, you know. But am I glad that we kept it together? Because now we're as strong as you could ever be. I can't believe we're sharing a house right now. And we're mates.

I did the dishes earlier before we left, but I will not be doing them again later. So why is this working? Just mates. That's unbelievable. You have to go there to come back. It's weird. The bands you mentioned, Martin, you mentioned Twilight Sad. And I'm a huge fan of many bands from Glasgow, Aria Graham, a great band that I loved.

And one thing that unites many of them is that, well, I love them. and many of them had various levels of success, many of them sort of, I don't want to say stalled out, but in terms of like a national exposure in this country or even maybe even the ambition to be that big, is it fair to say that there's a Glasgowian modesty or something that kept that from happening? Or is it more aggressively that you guys are willing to,

you want to get in, you're going to go toward this country, you're going to do the work, you're going to do the things that have to be done to make it happen. We worked hard in those bands for sure. Yeah, I don't mean to apply anything other than that. No, I wonder if it's like a time and place thing, a genre thing. Like, I don't know. Because I guess I've never been in a man that even got to this country.

So I'm like, please, discuss. I'm not sure. That's a really difficult question to answer. I would agree with Ian. I know that James and Andy are both really ambitious and really talented. Like, when it comes to the Twilight Sad, it's hard to say why it doesn't go beyond a certain point, you know? And those guys are still going. So who knows?

By the time this podcast comes out, they could have a record all over the radio. And I'll make a record right here, right? I do, yeah. I'll big up it on a microphone. I would love these things to happen. But you do hit on something because there is a, and I don't mean this of James and Andy, certainly not, but there is a particular attitude in Glasgow where if you show any kind of ambition that that is perceived negatively, if you do not disguise your melodies

behind difficult time signatures and complicated arrangements that you have. are in some way less worthy than the band that's playing in like some daft time signature and with jaggy guitars everywhere. That's like, to me, insecurity and fear is just throughout all of that stuff. And I can say that because I used to be that guy who was very afraid, very over complex for, because to me, to foreground melody and the way that we eventually learned to do was a dangerous risky thing to do. It was putting yourself all the way out there and you could get

especially us in the formation that we were criticized so deeply. And I do agree with that 100% but I'd also say that it just depends what you're trying to achieve. One of my favorite records is Loveless by My Bloody Valentine which is exactly what Martin

says. It's like beautiful melodies drenched and feedback and noise and swirling textures. Can't make out a single fucking word on the whole record but it still speaks to me like no other music does. Maybe my problem then is that inherently I just assume that everyone that starts a band wants to be the biggest band of the world. Right. And I'm like any other mindset to me is somehow unusual. That's how I feel about podcasting.

I'm going to crush them. Just look, don't get me started on NPR, those guys. But it's interesting what you say about melody. So Lauren, for you, one of the things that I've really loved about the band is I feel like your lyrics and your singing style has opened up. And there's a confidence isn't the right word. cheese after shows tonight. That's why. First of all, stopped talking after the gig. That's right, enough dairy. But as much as the music has moved towards a bolder melody and more foregrounded melody,

I feel like your lyrics have gotten equally bold. Is that fair to say? And was that a struggle for you, much as it was a struggle for Martin to stop putting, do you say jaggy guitars? You know? I don't know. I think it's kind of a natural development, I guess, just because I never really done any singing training over before this band. I hadn't, like, these guys went to university and studied music, and I'd never really done that. And I think it was a product of just

singing night after night after night, and then also getting to a point where I realized I didn't really know how to take care of my voice properly. I didn't know what I should and shouldn't be doing. And, you know, we kind of want to think of a live show as a kind of no excuses situation. Like, as much as I would love to go out and get smashed in Sydney every night, you can't really do that and then still do what you're supposed to be doing. And I don't know,

I think it was... Well, yes. And I don't know. I think it was, I guess it was interesting to get to a point where I could think about it as an instrument, and I wanted to know enough about what I could do with it so that you can tell the story that you want to tell. And I think, I kind of like the idea that, like, in some ways my voice is quite like, saccharine and sweet. But I like the idea that you take that kind of voice and the things that are coming out of your mouth are not things that you would necessarily hear on top 40 radio. And I don't know. I always think sometimes I can listen to something and be like, that type person is a technically amazing singer. But, like, the, the, they're not singing that song for the song. They're singing for themselves, if that makes sense. And I guess I just wanted to know that I had enough stuff in my toolbox that I could sing in the way that the song needed and not sing so that I could feel like I've really done it. Because that's what you're showers for later.

That's for the grueless. When I'm in the kitchen, that's when I'm going to take on the bodyguard soundtrack making soup and stuff. But you covered Beyonce and... Well, we were like, what is... Here's the category of Beyonce songs we could never cover because I can never sing them. I'm like, okay, I didn't sing that one as good as Beyonce, but I tried.

No, but I think it worked because you weren't singing Beyonce. You were singing the song, and you found something that spoke to your voice and the strength of your voice. It's a very focused vocal performance that really communicates something different than the original track, which is what a good cover does. And I feel like that's what I've tried to learn over the course of time. Especially in the first record, I was just so, like, rabbit and headlights blown away, like, out of my depth. By a lot of stuff that was happening, I think I was, like, getting through our show was quite difficult. So getting through each song, I was like, just like, do it, wrote, so you've done it.

Whereas, like, I guess now because we're more comfortable with it, I kind of think it's about, like, communication and what do you want to say? And I know there's some things my voice can do and something my voice can't do, but ultimately you should be trying to emote and trying to find something in those lyrics and express that. And even with covers, yeah, like sit down and look at the lyrics, unless I know them already, which I did for that one. Of course. And then be like, well, what bits do you?

How do you make people feel like you're saying that to them or something? I should let you guys go. You're on the – this is April. The record's coming out next month. Is this part of the roller coaster an exciting part for you? Is it fun? Not depressed, because obviously this is great. I can tell from your faces.

But you have these new songs. You have whatever swagger has been built up in the swagger bank from the last few years. What are you ready to show people with version three? Well, there's actually more anxiety. If I'm being honest, it's like this. There's a deep connection I'm feeling between Glasgow and Judaism as a whole. I'm really really really.

I think it's maybe why I've always liked the bands. The more times you say anxiety, the more I completely relate. And that's the truth of it. And now the more songs that we put out and get out, it's going really well at radio and all that stuff. And we can see it. It's becoming real again. But I can't tell you how weird it is to spend like a year in the wilderness.

Well, Bushwick. Right? You know, the wilderness. And like not be putting records out and watching the music business, they like evolve in front of your eyes. It's kind of a scary thing. So when you come back, all of the energy and lead up to that is one where you're going,

wow, are we done? You know, like, and that's an irrational thing on so many levels, but it's kind of how your brain just naturally goes. And now we're doing all this press and it feels good. And now I can get excited. But up to that point, I don't know. Yeah. I feel like you see it even with like giant pop records,

like nothing is like a sure fire winner. And I feel like as much as you don't want to live inside that anxiety when you're trying to work and trying to make the record and trying to write, I think it's kind of important to remember that. You can't go around thinking that everything is guaranteed because nothing is. And the goal is change all the time. And if you make a record that you really like

and it's a good record but it doesn't connect with people, then that's what's going to happen. Hopefully that will happen for us. But I think it's just important to remember that, like, you know, nothing is certain. You can't control that part. You can just make the best. The other thing is now, even if you do,

it's like six months. month pivot in the music business. You see these huge rock records or the huge, more of the huge pop records rather, is what I mean. I haven't seen a huge rock record in a while. No, that's like, those are really scarce. But the massive pop records on paper, there are failures that the artist is just, okay?

Like that away, next. And they're back in a few months because you can turn things around. With Amigos collabo. That's what you do next. And then there's a, you're only Amigos collaboration away from a huge, like, figures, you know, like, and you know, maybe. I think it's possible.

Finally, I have to say I owe you a huge thank you because you guys made music for my podcast. I did. And then you moved. What did you do, Leah? So good. It's coming back.

And I love it. I'm so honored that it exists. It was so nice of you. And I wanted to know just what I can do to pay you back. I wondered if you needed some sort of like a mediocre hot take on something cultural that I can just make a bespoke opinion for you guys. Like how do I repay one of my favorite bands making an incredible

track. You could open for us? Spoken word, I don't know, motivation. Oh, I think that would be good. Motivation? Right? You think that's... They could be like, take questions and be like, well, what's stressing you out? Like, why are you really, really worried about? I'm like, I'm really worried about it.

And they can be really existential or they could be personal. But then wouldn't I be like, that's nice that you think that's a problem? Let me tell you about my problems. I thought you thought maybe I could do like the spoke reviews of the people in the crowd. You know, I could say like you've come in with this backstory of this, but I don't buy that thing about your sister. and Lauren, Ian Martin, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Love is Dead is out May 25th.

You guys are great. I love the band. I'm so happy you could come talk to me again. Thank you. Thanks for pleasure. Yay. Today's episode of Watch was brought to you by the big homies at Thomas's English Muffins. Here's a breakfast I always get out of bed for.

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