The Watch - The Health of the IP-Verse and ‘Expats’ With Joanna Robinson

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

Andy is joined by Joanna Robinson to talk about the strength of various big IP franchises like Marvel, Star Wars, and Harry Potter (1:00), and what upcoming projects, if any, to look out for from these properties (19:47). Then, they talk about the first two episodes of ‘Expats,’ the new Amazon show starring Nicole Kidman (38:31), and preview this Sunday’s episode of ‘True Detective: Night Country’ (52:31). Host: Andy Greenwald Guest: Joanna Robinson Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's your boy Johnny Bananas, and I'll be covering all the treachery, deceit, backstabbing, and murder from season two of the Traders U.S. on my podcast, death taxes, and bananas. I'll be joined all season by my fellow castmates to swap stories, provide all the behind-the-scenes antics, and sorted details from filming. So, Sally Fourth, and join me for Season 2 of the Traders every Saturday on the Ringer reality TV podcast feed. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis,

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Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there.

Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official designation at the ringer, but my guest today on the other line does. Joanna Robinson, welcome.

Oh, my God, what a thrill and enjoy. And I love sitting here and pretending we didn't just talk for two hours about another TV show. This is a big day of podcasting for us. We're fresh. So to be clear, my usual co-host, Chris Ryan, is on tour, like all the famous bands. He is out on the road with Bill and Mal and Sean

on the rewatchable's cold weather tour. I feel like it's sold out, so I won't say go see them in Philadelphia tonight, but I wish you could. That sounds really fun. And Chris asked me, am I going to go solo today? And I said, oh, Chris, no, I'm going to go Joro.

And we double booked. We did record an episode of Stick the Landing earlier, which is TBD. That'll be out in a few weeks. But now we're going to talk watch. We're going to do watch stuff. You ready? I'm so ready.

Never been more ready. Very thrilled to have you here. We're going to talk about the new Amazon Prime show Expats from director Lulu Wang, which debuted over the last few days. I guess the third episode's coming out tomorrow. You have also been doing great work

on True Detective Night Country, so ahead of this weekend's fourth episode, we're going to, I feel like we can do a cross-the-streams pod, talk about it from maybe some different perspectives than we had in advance of the fourth episode. But before all of that, I had to do it to him.

Yeah. Joe, you are a frequent host on the Ringerverse podcast. You and Mal do the House of Our podcast together. The last time you were on the watch was to promote your fantastic book, MCU. And I kind of want to pick your brain about the state of big IP franchises. Now, we talk about this stuff a lot from our particular ornery perspective on this show. Yeah. I feel like you are more in those IP streets.

and maybe have, in some of these cases, have more skin in the game. And so we didn't plan this segment so much as I kind of want to just know what's the temperature in your mind of where these things are. Are they in a good place? Are there good things coming? Are we misreading it? Is there stuff happening behind the scenes that we don't know about, but you do due to your contacts or knowledge of the deep web? So let's go through it. The first one obviously has to be Marvel. And when we last talked about the book, we were all, and I feel like on your press store, there was a lot of, like, have we reached the end of the road here?

And that may have been just before the Marvel's tanked. And before Echo was... Like in the midst of the Marvels. Yeah, exactly. So where are we here in 2024? What has changed? What hasn't changed? And what's your read on things?

I would say, well, and also there's been the sort of official Jonathan Majors. Oh my God, we didn't talk about that. It's so great, yes. Yeah. I think that just hyper recently, I would say it's a bad look for Marvel that Stephen Ian and I. Debris both exited Thunderbolts. It's like the cool kids don't want to have anything to do with Marvel anymore. Right?

That's what those two departures feel like. It's not just, I mean, first of all, when a movie is delayed as long as Thunderbolt is and you have the strikes, like scheduling things are going to happen. but those two actors in particular who just cleaned up at the Emmys who are, I don't know if they are household names, although I was hosting Saturday Night Live this weekend, they are incredibly valuable

performers just for cachet. I mean, they're beloved, they're talented, they're on the come-up, they're who you want to have under a seven-picture deal. And now they're out of the movie. And they're gone. So, it was just, there was a point of Marvel's

trajectory where they could have any Anyone they ever wanted would do a Marvel picture. And this is, you know, no longer the case, I would say. I think what's interesting to look ahead for Marvel in 2024 is there's only one Marvel movie coming out this year. And it's Deadpool 3, which is half a Marvel movie, half not a Marvel movie. I think from my behind-the-scenes perspective, I would say something that's probably quite obvious to anyone listening, which is that they know how much is writing on that movie. And that is part of the reason why they've cleared the decks in so many different ways.

Do you remember when we had like four or five Marvel shows a year, right? And we're going to have like a movie and maybe Agatha? Like I could not say with confidence that we're going to have a Marvel TV show. And Daredevil is officially not 2024. Correct, right, because they're sort of back to the drawing board. And Echo, I feel like when you were on here last time, you were willing to say that that might not be an A-list product. I feel like it seems like they did the best they could.

They did get a pretty good media cycle out of being like, we made it hard R, TVMA, we're steering into it. And that seemed to get some positive response in theory. But the show happened. It was not good. I mean, I think the upshot of Echo, actually, the positive responses I saw were from people being like, hey, sometimes this feels like this is reservation dogs. And when the show felt like it was, yeah.

And when the show felt like it was reservation dogs, people really seemed to be really into it. It's such a funny inversion of this moment where like a couple years ago we were like, oh, all the things we like in culture, Marvel can do their version of it. And now we're parsing Marvel products for little scraps of things we preferred

in other iterations. It's the reverse. Correct. And so this idea of like, is Echo going to turn, like a question I got asked on Press Store was, is Echo going to turn everything around? And I was like, no, I mean, absolutely not. They're binge-jumping it.

Like, it's not, that's not what's happening here. But could Deadpool 3 turn the tide, I think possibly turn the narrative in a certain direction. So, a positive direction. So about that, this is sort of the theory I've been kicking around. It's not a theory. It's just more of an observation, which is Marvel seems to either understand or it's just behaving as if its current, cinematic universe is damaged goods. It is pushing its chips into alt universes and other things,

which is what makes Deadpool 3. Deadpool 1 and 2 were not Marvel movies. They were Fox movies. Now it's a Marvel movie, and all the implications is they're going all in on it, and we're going to see a lot of people and a lot of stuff that we hadn't before. They are now the ones clout chasing with another studios franchise to reboot their own.

They've cleared the deck so a popular, anticipated movie will come out with a Marvel name attached to it. Like, is this an overread of it? It's not an overread of the current situation, but I would just say that they just did it with Spider-Man for Sony.

Exactly. You know, and so it's not a new, new thing for that. I guess for me, though, the Spider-Man thing, the co-production with Sony, with the Tom Holland movies, is the narrative was, and this was spelled out wonderfully in your book,

Sony was like, we don't know what to do with this anymore. And Marble's like, will help. And so that was, well, Figey's The Golden Touch. He saved Spider-Man for Sony. This seems like Ryan Reynolds personally, because I don't think Fox wanted to make Deadpool for a long time in the original version of it either. Right.

They're going to save it for him. And then the other thing on the horizon that people are waiting on is for Fantastic Four to be confirmed, which, again, based on, I don't think this has been confirmed, but my understanding of the project is that it's Alt Universe, that like it's not, it's going to establish the Fantastic Four as the Fantastic Four where they've been the Fantastic Four. It's not an origin story. It's something that was building to Secret Wars. That's again being like, hey, look at this thing we can still do if we don't have it touch our other stuff.

It is wild that the nostalgia fumes coming off of like Deadpool 3, which again, rumor has it. I mean, we're seeing Jen Garner as Electra. Like, rumor has it. We're pulling in a lot of actors who played X-Men 4-4. Fox. And so similar, you know, in the same vein as the most recent Spider-Man movie where we are wrapping our arms around the Andrew Garfield films and the Tome McGuire films and the Tom Holland films and it's all one cohesive joint, that is, I think, what they're trying to do with Deadpool 3 where they can wrap their arms around.

I mean, because the X-Benn franchise, Spotty is heck, right? But like, try to wrap their arms around plucking out what has worked, redeeming what didn't work, but make it funny now that Ryan Reynolds can like kind of direct address to the camera and make fun of it. I understand why that's something they want to do. They want to make it all feel coherent. And like they're in on the joke and that's what Deadpool can offer to them. But you're right.

I mean, it is, I have rarely seen a toppling of a giant the way that we've seen Marvel in just the last year. It was like a year, is what it. It felt like. Two quick things on this point, and I'm putting you on the spot with this. You're sourced. You've reported stuff. If it's no comment or you have nothing to add to it, that's okay. But I'm curious about two things in particular.

One is there seems to be a very credible final fantastic forecast list that is just disgust and known. Pedro, Vanessa Kirby, Joseph Quinn, and Evan Moss-Backack. It has not been confirmed or announced. Do you know why that is? Do you have any insight into what's going on there? I don't. But again, that sort of speaks to. what they're chasing, if they're chasing Evan Moss Backrack and Joe Quinn, that's, you know,

that is the exact same demographic as it would be interested in seeing AOM and Stephen Yon and something. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's who they are interested in investing in. And I'll be very curious to see. I don't, I don't know why. I mean, I heard that that was supposed to be announced at New York Comic-Con in the fall. Last year. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe they're all showing up in Tedpool three. What about any other thoughts on the Jonathan Majors Kang thing? Again, not speaking specifically about Jonathan Majors and his conviction and the case that led us here. But more specifically, as soon as that conviction happened, Marvel had the press release ready.

They cut bait he's done. He is not in these movies anymore. He is not Kang. Clearly, this did not happen that day when the verdict was announced. Do you have any insight into the thinking behind that? decision, but I guess maybe the richer question is, do you think this is, again, the specifics of a criminal case I'm not asking you about? We all wish that wasn't the case, and we all wish none of this had happened. But is this, is the jettisoning of Kang, in this version of Kang, a good

creative thing for Marvel, in your opinion? I actually think yes, because I don't think it was working out the way that they wanted it to work out in the first place. And I think in terms of timeline of decision making, I would look towards when Jeff Loveness was writing the King Dynasty films, like when he exited. And it became something else. That's when I would look to like when the actual decisions were made. And I think what's interesting about the Loki season two finale is that contrary to what was reported, I think it was in THR, you know, when some anonymous insider said, you know,

they've totally screwed themselves. The Loki finale sets it up that Kang is super important for the right. No, the Loki finale sets it up where you can just tie it off. They did it. They handled Kang. So that was, that's in the edit. That's in the edit of the Loki Season 2 finale is that they already knew that they were going to do that. And by the way, I'll do some reporting on my own.

We're talking about it as if it's like in the past, like there's a lot of stuff on the horizon. They are trying. This is a very big deal still. As I drove into the studio today, I drove past the beautiful restored Vidyat's theater in Eagle Rock. And the marquee said Wonder Man, and there were there are trucks around. So I think they're filming that show here right now. So the great work goes up. I do not come here to bury Marvel.

You came here as a favor because I wanted to talk to you. And then I handed you a shovel. No, but when like Marvel's good, it's great. And I want it, I just want everything to feel the way it does when it's firing on all cylinders. That's what we all want. We want the stuff to be good. You know, even if, you know, according to our Lord and Savior. you're Christopher Nolan. We are in a post-IP world now. I think IP's not going anywhere. That's

something we're going to talk about a little later. And I think you just want what we're handed, the sequels and the franchises that were handed, to feel as complex and juicy and satisfying as they can be. So we just want these things to be good. Speaking of, oh, so I did want it as a bit, one to ten, ten, super confident, one, oh boy, where are you with the MCU? Just today, February 1st, 2024. I'm at like a six or seven. And then I think, you know, I think they have a real chance this year. With Echo and the Rearview, I think they have a real chance this year to, you know, drop some gemstones and win back some favor.

Some infinity gems, if you will. Let's move across the comic book hallway to the DCU, which has been announcing some stuff about James Gunn's vision, Millie Alcock from House the Dragon was officially cast as Supergirl. Superman Legacy, James Gunn's movie is amping up to production to added a few more cast members.

I don't actually have any idea where you stand on any of the DC stuff if you are a fan, if you're hopeful. So in the spirit of like 1 to 10 with these announcements, it's more of a blank slate. Where are you with this? And what is your read on this from your corner of the Ringiverse? On the 1 to 10,

I would say for this, I'm at a eight possibly. There's been a lot of disappointing storytelling out of the DCEU. The issue, I'm really interested to see what James Gunn will do.

I like to sue a squad suicide squad movie. Obviously Guardians 3 is sort of like being held up as the last great thing at Marvel did, etc. but I just don't, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around James Gunn plus Superman.

It just doesn't seem like the DC superhero for the James Gunn sensibility. That's sort of ironic, like, that's, you know, kind of gross sensibility that he has. I've been told, not by Kaii, who's doing great job here, but like I've been told, you know, friction makes podcast work. I disagree with you. I am anti-DCU generally. I was always a Marvel kid. I don't really have any opinion about DC superheroes. I'm not on the tank for them. I'm not going to show up no matter what, as I have proven with my wallet over the last 10, 20 years.

Yeah. I think the thing about James Gunn is that he's a softie. He's a giant sentimental softie. And what made the Guardians of the Galaxy movies work is that they were him

working his way through the gross out trauma. Trauma, not trauma. Although, kind of, T-R-O-M-A. Roger Corman's stuff that was his DNA and is like shocking, I'm going to tweet crazy stuff

because that's how I interact with the world to being like, actually, I just want my friends, animals, and humans to hug. Superman, I think, like he is for many people of a certain age, is the best of us and like the most perfect and pure. And the best comedy of a wonderful and pure icon

is of the Christopher Reeve gentle slapstick stuff. The people around him can be messy, but he's not in the same way that like Drax doesn't get the joke. You know what I mean? So I just, I have wildly weird high expectations. I think this movie is going to be great. I'm really excited about the cast. You mentioned Milly Alcock, but like,

Rachel Brosnahan is low as Lane, I think, is 10-10, no notes. Nick Holtz has never done anything wrong in his life except for the Dracula movie he made last year. True, but otherwise, he's always good, and he's playing Lex Luthorne. He's always interesting. He's always funny and honest with weird choices. He's great. No-ho Hank from Barry is going to be here?

Incredible. The name of the actress is playing Superman is something Corenzwith. David Crenzewitt. And as I've said before in this podcast, he's from Philly. So if Superman comes from Philly, like, I'm on board. The other thing that's ringing a slight alarm bell for me is that we've got, there's going to be a green lantern in this, there's going to be a hawk girl in this, metamorpho.

We're putting in a bunch of Justice League characters into this movie. And that, on the one hand, it makes sense to me because James Gunn loves a team up. But on the other hand, concerns me slightly because the whole walk before you can run issue that DCU had in the first place where they made Man of Steel. And I am like the number one Zach Snyder hater, but I will be in his corner for this and say, he wanted to make Man of Steel too. Yes. And they said, no.

Yes. Give us Batman v. Superman. Give us Justice League immediately. And that was, you know, the downfall of the DCU. I think you're pointing out that that's the biggest worry of this, which I think the mantra that has just not been accepted for various corporate reasons is, guys, make one good movie. You cannot run before you walk. Make one good movie. And it did seem to be like Superman legacy, the very intentional using of the Frank Quightly artwork, I think, from Grant Morrison's brilliant All-Star Superman run, suggested that

James Gunn was going to give us a movie that encapsulated the spirit of one hero that would then have a trickle-down effect on the larger cinematic universe should they get to make it. But this is like Kevin Feige, is also making the movie. So he has to seed his own garden and he's in charge of tilling the garden for the next 10 years. That's my concern too, as if his eyes get bigger than his stomach and he makes a movie about

an entire universe in one, which would be a bummer, honestly. It's very possible that like this hot girl, this Green Lantern, this metamorphosis, etc., are cameos, barely in it. Like, that's possible.

I just get, have Justice League, trauma, trauma, not trauma, like, you know, still in my bones. So, yeah. I'm completely with you. So what was your number on this one? Eight. Because, again, we're talking about one movie.

We're not talking about the state of something. Things are always best at the beginning. And I will say the slate that they announced was really, like, I'm a nine on the slate. I was just when I, I was like, okay, obviously they're starting a Superman. That makes a lot of sense to me. But it was almost like, I almost felt like James Gunn, of course, you couldn't help but dish yourself up like the prime rib. But I was like,

oh yeah. But I think you could have been better suited on one of the other titles. I also think, this hasn't been reported, but I feel like he probably pitched a Superman movie that led to the larger conversation about taking over all of it. Or he had the take.

I don't, we don't know which led what, but because it is sketchy that he was like, who knows who will make Superman when maybe his deal points weren't done. Yeah, I mean, he Dick Cheney himself, right? He's like, I'll lead an exhaustive search. Okay, but speaking of the, and I'm going to obviously reveal my own thoughts here, why don't you just, why don't you guys just relax and make one good movie?

We're going to move on to Star Wars. We belabor that way too much in this podcast, but that's why I want to get your sense as someone who is a, who is more generous, I think, than I have been to some of these products and projects. You have a deeper connection to some of them. what's your take on where that university stands right now? I might be more positively inclined than you are, but I... You're not setting the part.

It's kind of a low bar. Like, Mando's season three was very bumpy for me. Soka was somewhat bumpy for me. You know, I think we both agree that Andor was incredible. And so it's two Lucasfilm's benefit that on the horizon is, in our season two and Ackolite, Leslie Headlands. And I have heard from people who have seen a couple episodes of Ackleit that it is tremendously good.

I am unreasonably excited for Ackleight, particularly because it is unhooked from a lot of what we've seen recently with the Obi-Wan show or the O'Sok, like, unhooked from the larger continuity. And they left alone. I mean, this show has been in pre-production and development, and in production, and now in post-production for an incredibly long time, which hopefully is a good sign. They let it cook.

Cass is incredible So yes Please make a movie again ever Is definitely on Our minds though I am Worried about the project they've announced Via Dave Filoni So if I'm choosing to accentuate the positive

Which I think you've brought me here to do In contrast to your orneriness I would just say And our season two and Ackolite are two Incredibly promising projects Yeah I think weirdly if we were just looking from the vantage point of February 1st, 2024,

I would be more bullish on their TV slate, which also includes skeleton crew, which we know nothing about. But if that's more of like a kid's on a journey kind of thing, and Jude Laws in it, and John Watts, who made Spider-Man involved, like, okay, that could be, if they made a kid show, okay.

I've been secretly excited for skeleton. Well, not secretly. I've been talking about it, but I've been excited for skeleton crew. A little worried, I think they just bumped it back. So that makes me a little worried. Sometimes bumping back is a good side. And then you have Acolyte and you have Andor.

My concern is Acolyte and Andor seem to have nothing to do with the larger plans, certainly the cinematic plans from Lucasfilm. And that remains big question mark with the movies that have been announced, whether it's Daisy Ridley returning as Ray in movie TBD or it's Dave Flonie being like, guess what, this is a movie now, this thing I shot with puppets in Manhattan Beach. Okay. I don't need to do that again today. Near and dear to your heart, definitely than mine.

Game of Thrones verse. today some news broke that our old pals, Dan and Dave, Weiss and Benioff, are using their Netflix deal for more than just three-body problem, which is coming out next month. They are executive producing a show called Death by Lightning with a remarkable cast of Matthew McFagin, fresh off of another Emmy for Succession and Michael Shannon. But this is a dramatic retelling of the assassination of President James Garfield. When they said they were doing a historical thing I was like, did they get Netflix to do Confederate? Confederate? No way.

Bring it back into the news cycle. They seemed to have adjusted. Remember those that week on the internet? That was a legendary week. It was incredible. Anyway, I only bring this up to say they've moved on. I don't know if anybody was wanting, was asking for this show, but with this cast and this pedigree, sure. The Game of Thrones itself remains big business for HBO or Max or whatever you want.

call it. House of D coming back this year. What's your larger take on that show heading into second season, but also the larger universe, because a lot of stuff's been announced, a lot of stuff has never been put into production. How are you? How are you? How are you? How am I? It's a good question. On the Thrones front, I would say,

Hot D season two, extremely excited for. A Night of the Seven Kingdoms is the what they have said is going to be the next show that they put into production. So Night of the Seven Kingdoms is based on some of George Aramarn's prequel series, right? That's like the Dunk and Egg. The Dunk and Egg novellas. Stories and briefly that was being developed, or not briefly, we have no idea, by Stephen Conrad, who is fiercely beloved by certain fans of Culty TV because he made Patriot.

He's no longer a part of it. It is now straight to series on HBO from the pre-existent. interesting hot D, I like that, brain trust of Ryan Condal and George R. Martin, and then also a writer called Ira Parker who seems to have written the pilot, at least the one they're going off of. Who knows? I'm getting some slight, this has happened before vibes, because remember, you certainly remember, HBO Greenlit, a pilot that they were, with Naomi Watts, that they were very unhappy with

because it was apparently quite different from what Game of Thrones had been. And they immediately backtracked and they were like, George R. Martin and Dragons, and then they made House of the Dragon similarly developing this with Stephen Conrad, and now they're like, you guys know how to do this. So these guys seem to be shepherding this whole corner of the universe for that.

Verse. Yeah, another of the Seven Kingdoms, you know, which is, that almost seems to me to be a favor to George, because this is the show that George has really wanted for a very long time. So not a favor. Like HBO is not in the favor business.

but, you know, sort of like, all right, George's given us a lot. Maybe we can be guided by him. He's really high on this concept. Duncan Agar, you know, it's hedge knights. It's, you know, two people wandering around and solving crimes, essentially. Is that what a hedge knight is? It's not related to hedge funds. It's a different.

It's not related to hedge funds, no. That feels like the show George R. Martin would want her right now. Hedge funds? I feel like that's more reason his interest is. There's a bunch of others that are in developments that I don't know we'll ever see. There's one called Seasnake, which is a prequel based on Steve Toussaint's character from House the Dragon. There's 10,000 ships. They're getting into anime.

George R. Martin was recently blogging about how they want to make a strong for a... He's writing. He's just not writing the books. Oh, yeah. He loves a blog. Who doesn't? And he loves football and he loves wolves and he doesn't like writing books anymore. That's just...

Honestly, same. Relatable content, honestly. He talked about how much they want to move into the world of animated, and he cited Blue Eye Samurai as like sort of, let's go for that tone. So they're pushing that. The thing I will say, and this is not breaking news,

but Reddit, you can pretend that I broke news if you want to, but I'm not backing this with any, like, this is not confirmed. But I've heard the John Snow series is kind of DOA. Like Kit Harrington was like, we're going to make a John Snow series,

and I've heard it's not, I've heard it's not going, but I, you know, I could be wrong. Well, he's on industry season three with a different type of snow, as Chris has joked before. So I'm more focused on that. But that is interesting. I mean, I think that the, it's, you know, it's not easy for us. But when we talk about, especially the perspective you've had chronicling the rise of Marvel,

and I said this when you were on the pod before, and you've said this many times, like, it really was almost accidental that it worked. And then you see in various ways of the things we're talking about, just the management of these things is so delicate. And I think HBO has, you know, from a purely like business perspective, as someone, you know, my opinions about the shows, whatever, I think they've been judicious. I think they've been careful. Obviously, there's budgetary reasons for that too, because they can't just write $200 million checks for shows about dragons all the time. But I think they're right to be careful. But I think the other thing about it is, like, how do you

grow, how do you grow your audience? How do you maintain the audience? How do you keep them fed? and the fact that there have been so many projects hinted at and then even more projects that have gone further than probably we may ever realize only to be cut down or walked away from is kind of remarkable. Another of the Seven Kingdoms, I think, is interesting as a potential next project

because source material exists. Right. And I think that's putting that up against a nebulous John Snow series that is based on whatever fan fiction they want to write about what John Snow would do after the events of Game of Thrones. they know they're so smart over at HBO

they know how we feel about Game of Thrones and how Game of Thrones is strongest when it was an adaptation and then when it became fan fiction became much weaker and so they're like well let's go with the show House of the Dragon is based on fire and blood a book it is significantly flushing out that book

but it is based on a book so they have text that George R. Martin has written in the Dunkin'A. novellas so why not put that into production that makes less sense to me. In addition to telling me your number score for where you feel about the management of the Thrones IP, the House of Thrones, do you think, like one thing that I took away, I don't know where you are with these shows, we've never talked about it, but like I like the boys.

I really enjoy that show. I had no time at all for Generation V for the spinoff. Not only because I didn't like it, just point blank, I was like, I don't need more. I'm good. Like, the boys is everything. And now you've sliced off like Paul Sorvino and Goodfellas, like a slice. sliver of the other thing and you're telling me that's a whole meal. I'm good. And I kind of wonder about that with Game of Thrones, which is to say, like,

it is smart financially to feed the beast to give people more dragons and alt history of a world that we know. But I do think it might be dwindling returns for people. I mean, I'll just, as a casual, I don't, I'm not as engaged. That's so funny. I don't think of you as a casual, but, well, professionally, I've not been a casual about Game of Thrones. But I think in terms of my deep abiding day-to-day when I'm not in front of a TV or podcasting interest in Westrose, it's, it's casual. I don't, I don't read the histories. And I think that's fair, but I think, I do think we're, I just don't think we're running on vapor. Because there's a lot there. I think, yeah, I don't think it's, we're ever going to get back to Game of Thrones level with this IP,

but I do think that there's plenty for them to plunder there. I don't want there to be, I don't ever want to go back to a couple years ago when we were getting all these Star Wars shows and all these Marvel shows. And it was just sort of, you didn't have time to savor anything. And in my view and my enjoyment of, like, I don't think there should always be a Game of Thrones show on. That would be good for Mal and me in our business. But, like, I don't think that that's good for the storytelling. I think we should get, like, maybe let's say max two Thrones shows a year. On max.

Right? On Max. And with something like House of the Dragon, that's only going to run for four or five seasons. So like... Is that a promise? You know. Were you saying that for me? I swear to you.

I vow this to you. But I... So they're not making any of these shows with this is going to run for seven or eight years. Which is also the TV business now, to be fair. I mean, nothing right very long anymore. That's good thing. So what's your number? I hate to do it to you.

It's nine. I want you to do it. This is great. This is what I want. It's high. There should be some positivity on this show today. We're back to business on Monday. Finally, another one that's near and dear to your heart and near and dear to one of my daughter's hearts is Potter. Yeah. There is a TV show that is kind of happening, we think.

They seem very confident that it's happening. But they have not picked a showrunner yet. Yes. I mean, behind the scene stuff, like, they have been casting a net. They are looking for people. They're auditioning people, but they haven't picked. And what's not clear to me, maybe you have more insight into this than I do, both in terms of just what you've heard reported or maybe even what the fandom may want,

which may not be what showrunner Joanne Rowling wants. Are they redoing the books? Or is that just what we thought? There's nothing else happening here. No. Well, here's what your pal and mine, he's not my. is your pal. Casey has said, is that they're doing 10 seasons.

So that's more than there are books, but that's just because some of the books are a roll thick later on, right? So, yeah. So they're doing 10 seasons or 10 years, I think is what they said. They're not incorporating, like, Fantastic Beast stuff. They're basically pretending, sorry Eddie Redmayne, they're kind of pretending that didn't happen at all, I think. Sort of like Eddie Redmay.

Sorry, no offense, but I got one best actor. I was thinking about that the other day. He really did. He's probably a lovely guy, but that's why. wild. That's wild. Yeah. It's one of those wins where you're like, how did that, how do we let that happen? Okay, so

and Casey has promised a very faithful adaptation to the books. Right. And that also tracks with my understanding of behind the scene stuff over the years where obviously, and people, everyone who has been in charge of Warner Brothers when it was AT&T to

Jason Kallar to now Zazlav, everyone has been like this is the biggest IP jewel in your in your vault why aren't you using it and my understanding is that many people have tried but that um jk rowling has or at least made a you know made pitches made entreaties in various forms but that she she's in control of it and she will decide what is done and what isn't done and of course she has very strong opinions about that and so this is the show that we will get uh yeah and she settled it she made a deal with them in last year

about what degree of control she gets over this TV show in particular. And I should say on the IP front, I mean, you know, we love to talk about on-screen storytelling in terms of films and television, mostly television, it's called The Watch. But Hogwarts Legacy sold 22 million units. This is a video game. This is a video game. They're building a new Wizarding World of Harry Potter section at Universal Orlando. There's the Chris Child, I guess.

I mean, I know that it was a hit. But post-pandemic, I guess it had like a renaissance. I don't know. So I've just been asked recently if I thought Potter as an IP was washed. Oh. Especially with like a lot of what's going on with Joe Rowling and the things that she likes to say that I find awful. And I don't think it's washed, I think. And I think especially when this TV show hits, we're going to see a huge re-blooming of interest.

It's just an interesting and maybe ultimately brilliant and success. management of a property because I agree with you. I mean, as the father of daughters, father of daughters, but as as as as dad core, like it is evergreen. This is a new classic of lived life at this point in terms of it's just generational and people love it and they fall in love with it and then they love the stores and the chocolates and all of this is controlled by her. And what's notable is that there haven't been other voices in the room and there haven't been spin-offs or stories told from other perspectives, which is one of the hallmarks of, you know, obviously these are messier, older legacy IPs, but the other things that we're talking about.

And maybe that does speak to the importance that Warner sees and having George R. Martin really be in the room now for everything that they do and using his text, because it's not, to your point, like, it's not sexy. Harry Potter should never be sexy. I want to be clear about that. But it's not necessarily sexy to talk about this as like the hot thing. but it doesn't matter because the people who care are being spawned every generation and they're buying it all over again

and reading the books all over again. So it may have fallen out of like, what's the dark and gritty version of adult Harold Potter? We're not doing that, but maybe we don't need to. The magicians? What I'm hearing from you is that you want me to send you

some Harry Potter fan fiction so that you can enjoy the dark pretty sexy side of Harry Potter. I would like more. I mean, I have a vault. I've been working out some stuff on my own, so I thought maybe we could do a trade. Let me know if you need a beta reader. I'm happy to read.

I really appreciate that. Okay, so where are you with Potter? What's your number? Then we can move on. I mean, it's stuff because we just don't know in many details about the show, but eight, seven, eight. Because I also think seven eight means like you're confident in the current state of the project. The theoretical. Yes.

In the sense, like if they were, they don't need to be making a lot of stuff to have a high number. maybe it's an eight or nine because there's only one thing. The last thing I want to say about this before we move on is that despite the fact that like Marvel's going to be have a quiet year, DC is going to have a quiet year, Sony's going to have a quiet year, all this sort of stuff on the superhero front, the sheer tonnage of sequels and spinoffs and reboots and et cetera at the cinema, the multiplex, is staggering. So we've got Doom Part 2 is coming. there's another Godzilla Kong movie somehow, Furiosa, Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, Inside Out 2, Despicol Me 4, Twisters, which I'm actually very excited for.

Deadpool 3, Alien Romulus, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. We just found out today that it's called Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, not Beetlejuice 2, right? Gladiator 2, Wicked Part 1, Mufasa, Colin the Lion King, somehow another karate kid. That's what's happening at the box. This Madam Webarajor will not stand. That's the only movie that I'm talking about. And Craven the Hunter. You're right.

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Okay, so that is the IP portion of our conversation. Let's talk about some OPE. That was a surf brand, Ocean Pacific, but I'm trying it out. Original property? Can we do that? Although not really is an adaptation. I wanted to talk to you about the new Amazon Prime series, expats, which premiered last week. It is based, it is not original, I guess, in the sense that it is based on a 2016 novel, The Expatriots by Janice Y. K. Lee. But this was notable, the series is notable, because it is created by, directed by Lulu Wang, who made a fantastic movie called The Farewell. And in a way, this feels like a nice rejoinder to the funeral Chris and I had last week

for Autori Television, because this is a not-cheap adaptation of a book, spearheaded by a very, very talented, on-the-rise filmmaker, starring Nicole Kidman, and shot entirely on location in Hong Kong. The first two episodes premiered last week out of six. What do you think, both as a viewer, but then I'm also curious to have the conversation about what is this show even doing in the larger TV landscape?

I was surprised, like, you know, when you and I are batting around sort of what we might talk about, I was surprised at what a murmur this show debuted just like very quietly. And Nicole Kidman-Lead. show by a brilliant filmmaker. Like that's...

But then again, watching the first two episodes, I was like, oh no, I have seen Nicole Kim and do this many times now in prestige television, this character. So perhaps everyone feels like they've had their fill. But a reason I think is really interesting to talk about, and I liked the second episode much more than I like the first episode, I should say.

So like, the first episode I was pretty mid on and the second episode, I was like, okay, I would continue you watching. So just for people to bring people up to speed, it is a show set in 2014 in Hong Kong, the backdrop of the umbrella movement protests. Nicole Kidman plays a expatriate woman living with her husband and family in Hong Kong. They are very wealthy business people. They're driven places. They have housekeepers. There is an incident that is spelled out over the first two episodes affecting one of her children that also involves her close friend who lives in her building, who's played by Sorayou Blue. It's an actor I've liked to.

a lot in other things. And then a young actor named G. Young, Yu, who plays younger Korean-American woman who's also living in Hong Kong. They all become embroiled in something. But it is a deeply, like, it's a very, very serious. It is not a very light show about such as the loss in many ways of a child. Yeah.

It is not an easy watch for that reason. And, yeah. So I'm with you about. Yeah, it's interesting. I think the second episode, in the first episode, we're post-incident and the second episode were pre-incident, and so there is room for a bit more lightness, I think. And I don't know that that is going to be something we'll enjoy for the rest of the season. Something's interesting is that, I think it's episode five is a feature-length episode that they premiered at TIF.

So they, because it's a, it's a sort of standalone-ish episode about the live-in, the Filipino-in domestic help that they have. And so it's sort of like a side story. And so when a Lulung, like, debuted it, Tiff, she was like, I know it's weird to start with episode five out of a six-episode season, but it makes sense at its feature length. So she could sort of debut it as a film-ish type project. But what I think is really interesting about this show is a question I have all. the time when I think about brilliant storytellers, and I think she is definitely a brilliant

storyteller, is what's the best platform? What's the best way for you to get your story out? Like, it's a surprise, you know, she could have easily done another film. That would have been the obvious next movie for her. She decided she wanted to do television. Okay. She signed, in 2022, she signs a first look deal with Amazon television. Amazon, by all reporting, is a very chaotic place to get your projects made. And in the deadline report of her first look deal that she made in 2022, they list a bunch of projects, none of which are this, and none of which seem like they'll probably ever come to fruition.

And I've heard that again and again and again from people who sign overall deals with Amazon is that they get pitch after pitch after pitch sort of rejected and they wind up making something and that isn't really anything that they wanted to make in the first place. And it has to do a lot. There are a lot of reasons for that. but one of the reasons that I've come to understand is that Amazon TV, ultimately, it has its own people who work there, obviously, and Jen Salky is running it, and they've been making TV and movies for a while. But decision-making at Amazon is still done in a very dot-com global quadrant way where a lot of different teams take ownership over a lot of different decisions. So you have to please a lot of different rooms full of people for every yes that you hope to get along the way, which kills a lot of projects and kills a lot of artistic hope.

I've heard a lot of stories about that very thing in terms of rings of power. But I will say that, on the one hand, that's true. On the other hand, Mr. or Mrs. Smith is getting brave reviews. So, like, Amazon is certainly capable of putting out absolute gems. Amazon contains multitudes. And we will talk about Mr. Mrs. Smith on this podcast next week. But this is just such a fascinating move from a, you know, a filmmaker who comes out with an 824 film

wins an Indy Spirit Award and then this is what she does with that, it's not a blank check, but it is certainly, you know. With a cachet, yeah, there's an opportunity here. Yeah, fill in some numbers here. And I don't know,

what do you think about? Something I like to ask showrunners, and you are a showrunners, the man I'd ask showrunners is like, where do you think the best place to debut? What's the golden ticket for, oh, I got a show on this platform? and I don't know.

Like where should the show be if it was on a different network or service, you mean? Yeah. What's the best place? Because I think with Amazon, with Prime, things get lost. Unless they really pop, they get really easily lost on Prime. I totally agree with you. I think big picture, this is a tough look for it because Amazon is one of those companies that can fund your dream project, but can also shrug and lose your dream project. And it's easy to get lost. So I don't know the answer for that because I think that the answer, would change what the product itself is. In a way, my reaction of the show is not dissimilar to some of my reaction to the curse last week, which is, I love audacious filmmaking, and I love people being given the chance

to explore and chase after their muses to their hearts content with longer run times, with bigger casts, potentially with bigger budgets even than they're used to. That said, there's something that is fundamentally, and this is a loaded word that I wish I could avoid disrespectful to the medium of television when that happens. And so what I like about the show is I like Lulu Wang trying stuff out. And there are things that only a filmmaker could do here. For example, the way it starts with this grid of people talking about being the person not who were the victim of an accident, but who caused an accident, what happens to them. There are these lovely silent shots of Hong Kong. There's something that you feel like was important

to her and probably was important to no one else in the pilot where Soraya Blue and Nicole Kidman dance to Blondie in a noodle shop after midnight. And I'm like, yes, give me that. I want a filmmaker who, and again, I've only seen two episodes, but what I understand is what you alluded to, that it builds to a larger tapestry of stories in an experimental way. Like, that's wonderful.

I love that, and that alone might keep me sticking with the show. But all the way back to your question, Nicole Kidman, as a grieving rich lady abroad, is an HBO show. And it's an HBO show told with a different level of melodramatic rigor. And I mean that as a good thing, then this show is interested in doing. So what you get instead is an interesting melange of styles and ideas and aesthetics that don't, so far, equal a successful meal for me. There are a lot of different pieces here that are noteworthy. And I don't want to disparage it, but it's not fully working for me.

Not the correct use so far of Jack Houston, I will say. If you look at the Nicole Kidminton TV project trajectory, you've got, of course, big little lies, the undoing. These are HBO shows of sad, rich wine mom. And then you've got nine perfect strangers. Nine perfect strangers. It was called on Hulu, which doesn't pop at all. And then you've got this. It popped for them.

They're in, okay, nine, 18 perfect strangers? 10. No, I don't know. But they are making a sequel series. It did big numbers for them. It did it. Okay. Then screw my point if they're making a sequel series.

I don't know. I just, I just, I want everything to flourish and I want everything to be right where it needs to be. I think there is just a difference between, I think there was this interesting shift where everyone ran to Netflix because what Netflix is promising was tons of money with little oversight, right? And then I think there's, the worm is turned on that and then it's back to HBO, HBO Sunday night. is the brass ring. And I don't know. It's just something I like to think about in terms of if you had a big win

and you wanted to tell a TV story, where would you want to go? And I guess to your point, it depends on what TV story you want to tell. But, but, I mean, in terms of developing, if you want to develop something with people, I think the answer from everyone in this industry is the same. It's HBO and FX.

They're the people that has the most entrenched teams that have been there long enough. And there's a different level of fear in all these offices than there used to be. But those teams have been there for a long time and they have a track record and they know how to work with people

of different levels in their careers and they know how to execute and give the notes and then not give the notes when necessary. The other places aren't as established. Now, that said, they're brilliant executives

at all these companies doing their best and different versions of what success might mean and might, you know, changes from room to room. But yeah, I think, but that said,

if you want people to see your show, you want to be on Netflix. There's only one answer. That's the only place anyone's going to see anything, it seems like, increasingly. The Nicole Kidman thing I do want to say is, I mean, this with great respect to one of the most esteemed and rewarded actresses of our time, kind of over it. It's just because it is a different haircut, which I appreciate, but it is a tone we have seen before.

And the other thing about it that I think was not really taken into consideration by the filmmakers is that she is a star, whether you think in the sense of like a great actor or just a famous person, whatever, she is a charismatic gravity-altering star. And when you put her into a production where everyone else around her is either up-and-coming or TV,

and I don't mean that disparagingly because you and I love TV. But they all look small. And particularly in the case of Sarai, Blue, who is, I think, a full 12 inches shorter than Nicole Kidman, the framing is odd. But there's an actor

named Brian T. who plays Nicole Kidman's husband. And he may well be a very good actor. I haven't seen enough of him to know. I also didn't watch Chicago Med. When you put an actor from Chicago Med... You're not in on the Chicago shows? Just not the doctor stuff.

I want to see... Firemen only. I want to see fires put out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't want to see victims of the fire cared for. No, no, no, no. That's uninteresting to me. No, no, no.

I care about... Buildings not people. My point is, and again, I feel bad singling out any actor because this would be true of any actor except maybe a movie star or Hugh Grant, you know, in the undoing. I was going to say, you need a Hugh Grant opposite her, yeah. Nicole Kidman's spouse in this is going to seem small, you know, and change the gravity of the screen.

And so I struggled with that. Like, I thought, I couldn't tell if it was budgetary reasons that the cast is Nicole Kidman and a bunch of other good to decent people, or if it is very director shit where directors like, Only I see the capabilities of these actors that have not been given the chances before, and I will give them everything, which is a beautiful thing about directors, but it doesn't always work. And I don't mean to be, I don't want this to come out as like I'm talking shit about actors on the show. It's just that Nicole Kidman is just like, it's just like dropping a zoo animal into a pet store. It's just different.

There's also, I think that's a great point. There's also, I don't know if you notice this, a lot of really strange ADR. Yes, very much. It's absolutely bizarre. The show starts with some very weird ADR, where the camera, and ADR for people who don't know is when you add dialogue to a scene, usually on the back of an actor to help explain something

because either you didn't pick it up in production or you realized in the post you needed more. But like the first time we see Nicole Kidman, she's talking to a party planner and the camera's circling Nicole Kidman's back. And it's pretty clear that almost everything she's saying is ADR, that it is not in the room. And so that it gives this very stilted.

Like that opening, and I was like, is Nicole Kimman not a good actor in this scene? And that's what an overuse of ADR. I mean, ADR here and there, you won't notice. But if it's constant, then you will. And she does some stuff later that I think is absolutely phenomenal. She's Nicole Kidman. But to your point, I feel like we've seen this from her. It's just surprising because I think that we are both here for TV shows. Like I'm, and we're here for Lulu Wang projects. And this feels like in potentially odd. collision of the two, but again, what you said, the fifth episode premiered at a film festival, so maybe it's worth sticking with. Before we go, I did want to cross the true detective streams. I love that. Like, Chris was like, we should do a team up and you're like, yes, when you're out of town, Chris. I was like, who's weird? Yeah. Yeah. So you guys are recapping it also on the prestige TV

feed. We are heading into the fourth episodes. We're at the halfway point in a previous podcast that we recorded today that we won't step on too much. Um, you. made a really good point about how in the velocity of a television show, the midway point is when the ascension stops and you kind of are plateauing and all of the theories and excitement and fun of the beginning begin to descend into the atmospheric whatever of reality of what the show is going to be. So we're at that point. Specifically, I'll screw it, I'll just say it. We did Twin Peaks. We should say it. Yeah, we did it. It's my favorite show. It'll be on sick to landing in a couple weeks. I wanted to talk to you about this moment of true detective's night country through the lens

of the twin peaksiness of it, whether that's worth chasing, whether that's valid, whether it's giving you like positive echoes or not, because as Chris and I've been saying, and I'm sure you and Rob have been saying too, like the supernatural element of this season is much more, so far, much more literal and pronounced than in previous seasons and is doing more of the lifting. And I'm on the fence about how I feel about that. Totally. I agree with you. I think, especially in season one of True Detective, but, you know, I have some fond memories of ghosts around the margin of Season 3 of True Detective. That idea of plausible deniability, is it supernatural or is it just in the mind of the person? And then here in True Detective, Colan, Night Country, we have characters saying, we're at the edge of the world where the, you know... True Detective, colon is... Chicago Med spin-off, just to be clear.

Which you won't watch because it's about healthcare. I'm also just not interested in like GI, like gastroa doctors. No, thank you. Go on. Fair enough. But corpsicles, you're all in on. We're at the edge of something. We're at the edge of the world and the barriers are thin, and that's why you see ghosts and stuff like that.

It's, I don't know. And Issa Lopez, who is incredibly talented, is a horror. That's her preferred genre. So we're getting not just supernatural, but like in episode three, object terror, horror, creepiness. In the case of like Lund waking up to say that like your dead mom says hi. Hello, Evangeline, like that shit. Yeah, absolutely.

And so I don't know that I love answering the question. Because I think the beauty of the first three seasons was that question. But with Twin Peaks, it's funny. I keep calling things Peksy is something that I will say but I should probably, to sound smarter, say Lynchian, but I won't. But the peekiness of this season of True Detective

feels very intentional and goes back to a question that we asked on that Stiglanding episode that we just discussed which is the idea of evil. When you talk about, you know, when Chris is talking to you on the watch about hey, Andy, I know you don't remember this, but this is what is connective tissue

to season one of two detectives. The spiral thing, that is stuff I don't really care about. And I don't really care for, I don't need Matthew McConae to show up. I don't need any of that stuff. The spiral stuff is interesting to me because that is a connective iconography, similar to the connective iconography that we get throughout TwidPeaks properties, that speaks to an elemental evil that exists in the world versus people are inherent. evil or bad.

And this is a question I think is always interesting. Yellow Jackets asked his questions too, is like, when evil happens, is it coming from our humanity or is it coming from something external to a supernatural that is infecting us? And that's an, I don't know, what do you think about that question or how it's handling that? I think you've, I think you've very well identified maybe the similarity between Twin Peaks and that country. And it's one that I'm open to because I think.

think as long as it preserves humanity's culpability, because I think what's interesting to me about the internal external idea is if both can be true. You don't need to believe that there's a hellmouth underneath Ennis to understand why atmospherically, contextually, people might do bad shit there. People do bad shit anywhere. But then to your point, like, it's real dark. A lot of the time, the people who are on the margins are often living on the margins for reasons. They may be choosing to exclude themselves from society. I like the idea of the internal forces that make us, that that fuel the choices that we make as adult humans. You can't really show that artistically unless you externalize it and create a force or a demon or a spiral drawing. I love that.

I mean, that's the best storytelling. Where you lose me is when we are all otherwise good vessels or victims to a supernatural force. You know, which is more important. As long as, and it's a delicate balancing act, but like I'm interested in the human story first and the rest second. And weirdly, this may be the only time I've ever been aligned with Nick Pizzolato and anything. I kind of think he thinks that too, which is why the, again, this might be just my hobby

horse as someone who has not revisited the series keeps riding. But my sense was the supernatural stuff was cool and interesting and atmospheric and evocative and Carrie Fuganaga ran with a lot of it, but it was window dressing to the story that he wanted to tell. And it's just, it's particularly, it's compelling to me, but not necessarily, I don't know if it's going to be good or bad, that Issa Lopez seems much more motivated by the window dressing at this moment, at least in Pizzolato's conception of it. It's like an inverse. I think, yes, and she has said that. She said that from the start that she's telling an inverted story to Detective Season 1, that True Detective Season 1 is incredibly male in this like warm, swampy environments, blah, blah. And she's like, let's make it cold, let's make it dark, and let's make it very female-focused.

And so in that sense, the inversion of the triangle on the supernatural front could make sense. What I suspect is true, and I could be wrong, what I suspect is true is something because she's been very, clear about, which is that she had already written Night Country when HBO said, we want to make True Detective. So to circle back to the IP conversation that started this episode, this is Cloverfield-esque slapping an IP two words in front of a project that was already conceived. So like the Rust Coal connection or the Tuttle or the spiral, like all that stuff is stuff she has injected to make it fit with the larger True Detective universe.

That's right. But the horror, that's Issa Lopez. So, like, you know, I suspect any, like, what makes a true detective story? A true detective story is a question everyone covering the show has been asking themselves. Like, when you hand a universe over to a different creator, okay, so what makes this a true detective story? And I suspect we're going to be on the back foot on this because actually this is a night country story with a true detective veneer. And I think we'll be backfoot on the story until there are more. you know, I continue to think, and I said this even when I wasn't loving the Pizzolato iterations,

that this is uniquely ripe for allowing other people to drive. You know, I think determining that question is open enough, but the specifics of it are set enough to allow it to be successful through multiple showrunners and multiple visions. And I think what would probably serve this show best going forward would be that the next person, if this passes on, you know, to another filmmaker, someone with a completely different interest, someone who's also interested in detective stories. But what they bring to it might be a different genre, as terms of a secondary passion. Yeah.

And so what it might just be is what the true detective brand is, is at least one, if not two, movie stars or big actors that you are excited to see are detectives somewhere distinctive investigating something kind of horrific. There have been worse premises for anthology series, you know. And then if you spackle on a couple of references to Tuttle for fun for the fans. I mean, the question is one thing that I'm interested in also, and this is the sort of the meta narrative on top of watching the show, is Chris had Issa on and they had a wonderful conversation. She seems great. Great.

She's also extremely online, which worries me. I almost brought this up when we were talking about Twin Peaks earlier and people being in conversation because that was one of my favorite. One of my favorite Andy Greenwald throwaways of all time is Chris is saying something about how Issa responded to something. And you just like muttered, she's online too much. Yes. I think this deeply. I wanted to talk to you about this. I know because both in the spirit of like David Lynch doesn't say anything and it's better.

But I also, I was people that this is weird we're talking. Like True Detective, we're telling stories in different timelines. When you hear True Stick the Landing Twin Peaks, I am thinking of Issa Lopez when I'm talking about something similar, which is to say. I almost brought it up. She seems like such a genuine, good faith, creative person who is enjoying experiencing the show with fans. She wanted to make something popular. That's not a sin. Not even popular, but like widescreen.

But she's also out there parrying and in the trenches. And my experience as a human who's been online is that you just get muddied no matter how good your intentions are. And my read of it through three episodes is that she, that Fiona Shaw character, had a husband and the ghost, that was all in her night country story. Right. She was like, oh, I'll give him a last name. And she thought that was fun.

And it is fun. And it's a nice little thing. It's a bit of connective tissue and retconning that works for the project, which is not just night country, it's true detective night country. But by doing that and sort of smiling about it, there are those toxic fan bros

who are like, you're getting your night country in my true detective and think, or even not the top. toxic part. Yeah. The genuine Redditor part that's just like, ah, I'm going to unpack this and, you know, reveal the connection between these shows that didn't have a connection other than Issa Lopez being like, cool.

I think that that's just a good lesson to learn as we head into the back three of the season is just sort of these connections are probably just a gloss on top of an existence story and you shouldn't hold it, take it too seriously. But to your point, on the one hand, I agree with you. You and I both know that the best way to win a Twitter argument is to not even start one. Yes. And just walk away. Or any social media argument.

Yes. But the thing about, the thing I would say in Issa's defense about that is that there are people who are not giving the show a chance from the jump. That's true. Just because it's led by two women, honestly. Um, not hashtag not all fans, but certainly some. I've certainly seen it. So, you know, she, her attitude might be like, well, listen, if they're going to be that way anyway, I might as well sort of have the fun that I can have. Um, yeah, I don't know.

I think that's fair. Have you, do you watch ahead? Are you ahead of the audience with a shoot detective night country? No. Uh-uh. I'm staying pure and clean so that I can theorize. Okay. I am the same way.

So I won't ask you for anything else other than to say, we should unite streams at the end of the season since we have a bunch of different takes on a show that I think we're all enjoying but I think we're all enjoying at different temperatures and speeds. Yes, I agree. And to your point earlier about

Nicole Kidman feeling like she sticks out of the cast, Jenny Foster really feels to me like she folds in. Like she's folded in here. I totally agree, but also that's why John Hawks is in that part. That's why Christopher Eccleston is in that part.

Yeah, but you and I know. know who John Hawks and Christopher Eccleston are, but they're not like major stars. Oh, I don't mean because the audience is like they're not worthy of her. I just mean that they are such veteran established, talented performers. So good. But I think what you're also saying, and I don't want to bury it, is that she's a different kind of performer playing a different type of role than Nicole Kidman. We're not choosing sides, whatever. They all have the things. But Jody Foster does seem to be, maybe this comes from being a director or whatever also, but she seems to be throwing herself into the ensemble in a way where, again, it's also the way it's written, because Nicole Kempastor.

Kittman is supposed to be floating above everything in her grief cloud with her. She does a lot of Pilates. I can tell by her back. She's scrubbing the floor. I admired that. Yeah. And there's a bath scene and a lot of backless dresses. She's like, I didn't work this hard to not show you what I got.

So just some housekeeping before we let you go. Joe, people can listen to you regularly on the ringerverse on House of our prestige television podcast. Am I forgetting anything? Childlike content is the other one. Oh, nice. Yes. And also your book, MCU, is. out and just some housekeeping for the watch. Chris is swaning about the country for his other

podcast, whatever. Because of that, we will not have a new episode of the watch on Sunday night this week. Chris and I will be recording in our normal slot on Monday. It'll go up Monday. We'll be talking true detective. We'll be talking Mr. Sperid. We've got to get to Masters of the Air at some point. Mr. Mrs. Smith. It's too much TV for me. It's a lot, but I love how you guys are all in on Monsieur Spade. I mean, how could we not? The most on brand, the watch thing. Very watch core.

That's the only one I really want to be covering. I mean, I think that's not a surprise to drop at the end of this podcast. Well, you love the croupier. You love Cleve Owen, so here we are. You've been on this podcast twice. Friend of the pod. Come on. It is such a pleasure to podcast with you.

Not once today, but twice. You will be on not one but two episodes of Stick the Landing in the next few weeks. Joanna Robinson, you're the best. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you, Kai and Macmillan for producing all of it, truly a legendary performance by you.