The Watch - The Highs and Lows of the 2022 Emmys. Plus, 'Industry' Season 2, Episode 7.

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about what worked and what didn't during the 2022 Emmys ceremony, including how the awards represent TV at large (1:00) and why the broadcast itself continues to be weird (16:10). Then, they talk about the penultimate episode of 'Industry' and how the show continues to draw inspiration from 'Mad Men' (26:35). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I have some good news for you. The hottest take. It's back. Oh yeah. Monday through Thursday, four times a week you hear from me. Chris Ryan, Sean Fantasy, Mallor Rubin, Wazdine Lambray, Van Lathan, June Lippman. Many other ringer staffers. You get one take. You got a defendant to the death. Sports takes. Pop culture takes. Food takes. Airplane takes? Oh, yeah. It's coming back. First episode drops. August 29th. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine

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Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going.

Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, listening to Liquid Swords and staring at his Bloomberg terminal. It's Andy Greenwald.

There are worse things to be doing. There are worse things to be. Have you ever felt so seen generationally? No, it gets uncomfortable sometimes. You know what I mean? Do you ever see something and you see your interest reflected on screen and you're just like, maybe I'm not as big of a person as I thought it? Maybe I'm not as complicated or as interesting of a person as I thought I was. We're referring to the most recent episode of industry where Jesse Bloom is listening to Wu Tang Plan and dribbling a basketball in what looks like a Victorian mansion in the middle of London. Greenwald, it's great to see you. A couple of things off the top row. Some programming notes. Andy and I are going to go on Monday this coming week because we want to cover the finale, the season finale of industry as well as House of the Dragon. If you need your instant fix of House of the Dragon talk, you can find me on Talk the Thrones, which is on the Ring ofverse. And I'll be chatting about the new.

episode with Mallory Rubin and Joanna Robinson. I have a great time doing that. I have a great time talking with you. I don't have to choose. That's the pleasure of my life. I have a, I don't know if you still do this as a segment that we used to do on Talk to Thrones. But who the fuck was that? I've got a couple for this week's House of the Dragon. So I might submit some, some listener questions. I think Andy's corner would be great. Andy's question corner would be awesome. What else did I want to mention? Today we have a little bit of technical difficulties on the, on the Andy end, and we're sorry about that. We try our best. But if you notice a little bit of audio friction, that's just something we're working through. No big deal. Andy, you look wonderful. Today we're going to talk a little Emmys. We're

going to talk a little industry. We want to get to Atlanta. Atlanta's debuting tonight as we record on Thursday, I believe. And so we will get to that on Monday show as well. So we have a full show on Monday. Yeah, a lot of TV. I can't believe Atlanta's back. Like this is just, it's tough. It's tough to keep sailing these bumpy waters. A lot of us. time of the year where I do a lot of driving around Los Angeles and I see billboards for shows coming back and I'm like, that's so far in the future. I have so much time to get ready for Atlanta coming back or Abbott Elementary coming back or anything coming back. And then it's like, guess what it's on tonight? It's really true though. Chris, it's like last weekend, it's 110 in the

shade here. And you happen to see a billboard that says something is happening on 923. And that's like looking at the expiration date on your driver's license. I'm like, that is not something that needs to be in the forelob of my brain right now. And, yeah. Ken, here we are. Here we are. Andy, you know, in years past, maybe you can say when we were hungrier, but I think just in years past,

we would have kind of, we would have done something right after the Emmys. Yeah. We would have been like, it's TV's biggest night. The winners are crowned. The losers go home to drown their sorrows and champagne. And I think for the last couple of years,

obviously the pandemic changed the nature of award shows. I think also the true just content explosion that happened over the last few, years where it's hard enough for us as a two-time-a-week TV podcast to wrap our arms around television, as evidenced by the fact that we're like, fuck, Atlanta's coming on. I think that you can see the Emmys sort of struggle to grasp the enormity of the television body at this point. They still try shoving things into comedy, shoving things into true, limited anthology, all sorts of stuff. I got the impression. They, they made. They

move the show to a Monday. It shows are usually on Sundays, right? Like, am I mistaken? I'm thinking that... It has toggled. I mean, award shows generally are on Sundays, yes. But when you start running into football, you're going to get bumped to Monday.

Yeah, you got to get out of Patrick Mahomes' way. So, Monday night was the Emmys. And it was one of those situations. Here's my read on it. And we could talk about the actual broadcast itself. It was on NBC. I felt like... In each category, it was like hard to make a huge argument.

I have to say at the top, I don't believe in the Emmys. I don't believe in the project. I don't believe that it in any way confers greatness or validity to TV shows or not. Wait, when you say you don't believe in it, it's not like you're doing your own research. Like, you know, it's, it aired. I will not be getting upset about this. You know what I mean? And I appreciate its purpose, but I also am like, this is ridiculous.

This doesn't even have the kind of. historical mile marker kind of purpose that the Oscars does where you can look back and be like this one this year but all these other movies were nominated that year too. It's like this is more of a just kind of ticker tape parade for TV itself.

And when you look at the winners and when you look at a lot of the nominees I think for the most part as we said I think when the nominees came out we were like, Damies kind of got it right in terms of what they nominated. And yeah, you can be like is the Ted Lassow train leaving the

or what, I'll hear all the arguments. But what, one, isn't like, it's not like they're not, they rewarded bad stuff. I think it's important to say that at the top whenever talking about the Emmys. And to be clear, we did do something right after the Emmys aired Monday night, which was to text each other a series of profane messages and emojis over the broadcast itself. So we are going to do the thing where we separate the television show, the Emmys, from the institutional mile marker that it was. And so if we're just talking about the institution,

and the awards, the Emmys deserve to be commended year after year because they get it and the votership gets it broadly right. That isn't to say some amazing things weren't snubbed. I mean, reservation dogs was not nominated. They don't cover everything. They miss a couple things. I'm glad you mentioned the Ted Lassau thing. That is incomprehensible to me. But there's always something that Emmy voters just love and that they fall in love with and and continue to stand up for, even if maybe consensus is it isn't quite as good or isn't quite as meaningful compared to some of the other nominees. That's just the nature of the beast. It was very, very, very hard to quibble over specific winners. You know, did I want our buddy,

Pat Somerville and Station 11 to clean up in the seven categories it was nominated for? Yes, of course, both because he's our buddy, but more specifically, Station 11 was the best show of last year. I stand by it. And it would have been incredible. because not only to have it recognized, not just because it deserves it on the merits, but because maybe that would push more people to watch it, because it was definitely not as watched as some of the things that it lost to. But also, we live in reality. And it wasn't as watched as other things. And so you feel individually for Himish Patel or Pat himself or a hero, Marai, who directed, was nominated for directing Station 11 or Atlanta deserving in both categories. But

I do feel that when you run down the list, everything was worthy. I really, I can't think of a nomination where I was like, that person shouldn't even be there, you know? Yeah, or this was really goosed into the nominees somehow by like glad-handed and like a furious FYC campaign. I mean, I just think that the Emmys typically like in the past, you know, I have like a blank spot for all the years that like modern family seem to win. And, you know, you go back all the way. It's like, actors on the West Wing talking about how they would like sometimes not go to the Emmys because they just had won so many times. Yep.

To now, and it seems like, you know, obviously it's important, but does it have a single iota of impact on how we look at Better Call Saul? No. Does it probably would have meant a lot to Bob Odenkirk or Racy Horn do of won and had this kind of totem at the end of their experience to say, hey, we did it? To be clear, they can be nominated again. This was not their last rodeo. Better Call Saul is something egregious like 0 for 42 or something.

It's never won an Emmy, despite Breaking Bad cleaning up in its last few years of eligibility. The split season wasn't just to protect the timing of everyone in Bob's health. This split season allowed the season to exist in two distinct Emmy years. So the last run of, what was it, five or six episodes will be eligible next year. And I think that I have to admit, if the show's keep. coming at this clip. Sure, like White Lotus was on quite a while ago, and White Lotus did the business at the Emmys.

I have a hard time imagining that people are going to catch up on Better Call Saul if they haven't already in the next year. Maybe they will. I agree. But there is still, there's so much content that you can't guarantee it'll even be nominated, although I think it likely will. I did. But you also can no longer count on a, well, it's their last rodeo.

let's reward them because there's just simply so much out there and so much being watched or being watched instead of. I think that what you said at the top is probably the biggest takeaway from, well, here are a couple takeaways, I would say, but I think the biggest one is what you alluded to at the top, which is the real persistent sense that the Emmy Votership, the TV Academy, the Academy of television, isn't quite sure what its medium is anymore. Now, I don't say that as a problem. I say that as an interesting thing to note and watch how it evolves. Because to your point, Barry, when it was last eligible, cleaned up. Winkler one, hater one, et cetera.

It was absolutely deservingly nominated across the board again this season, and it goose egged. Now, did it goose egg because people just love Ted Lasso so goddamn much? Or did it goose egg because it's hard to argue that Barry is a comedy anymore? and people feel in some ways traditional about the categories, which are still called drama series and comedy series. They're not called hour long and half hour long, right? Yeah, yeah. So that, the flip side of that coin is,

and I kind of love the Emmys for this, honestly, the Emmys still do in their way, even though they don't, other than Abbott Elementary, deserving and thrilling to see it shine, the Emmys have moved away from traditional TV, right? Like Chris O'Donnell is there, And you're like, wait, Chris O'Donnell is on TV. And you're like, yes, he has been the high-paid star of NTIAS, whatever, Los Angeles, I think, for almost a decade.

Right. Those people aren't really invited to the Emmys. Certainly they're not invited to the stage as nominees or winners anymore. But in a way, the Academy is still kind of nostalgic, I think, for the way, broadly speaking, Americans still kind of like to watch TV, which is to say they like their stories to come back and they like to be with their friends again, and then a year later like to have them back. And you see that in the allegiance to Ted Lasso. You see that in the uplifting of Abbott Elementary, and you do see that with Succession,

which absolutely deserves every single trophy it got. Matthew McFadion, genius, right? Maybe the best on the series. Best actor, which is hard to say. You can't pick favorites, although picking favorites is what Succession is about. But compared to a lot of the other drama nominees, it's the show that comes back with our friends and stories and our vibe, right? And that, I think, is what lifts it over the finish line, even more so than it's just

absolutely unimpeachable quality. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, do you want to talk about the show as a production itself or where there are other, I mean, we could go through some of the awards if you want. Obviously, Squid Game did quite well. Abed Allen Elementary did quite well. Ted Lassau did quite well. And clearly, Succession is sort of become the like everybody's favorite show kind of thing. Yeah, people were thrilled to see.

And Jesse, friend of the pod, Jesse Armstrong did great anti-royal assessment. sentiment from the Emmy stage. I was very pleased with Zendaya. I was very pleased with Gerard Carmichael winning. There's a lot of stuff where like almost every award, I was like, hell yeah, that person won.

Is it at the expense of someone else that I also liked? For sure. I think that maybe one of the reasons why the Emmys seemed frustrating is not necessarily who won and who was nominated,

but how the show itself went. And I guess we're screaming into the abyss at this point about this kind of stuff. And the bigger the production and the more significant, the sort of award show, whether it's, I mean, honestly, like, the bigger the football game, the more annoying the football broadcast gets, right? So I'm sure that there is a television critics association award show somewhere out there that is just really like about appreciating the art form.

But the bigger they get, the more they're going to be like, we got to have bits, we got to have tie-ins. We have to have all this stuff happening. And it ultimately winds up kind of, I think, distracting and detracting from the experience of like, Shirley Ralph winning or whatever. Yeah, there is, by the way. I mean, the TCA is the Television Critics Awards Association. Television Critics Association Awards, they have a private dinner that they don't allow cameras in.

And I did get to attend one year. And like when Breaking Bad wins, they hang out. You know what I mean? Like, it is a much chiller, more drunken, like, we just like TV here thing. but that's never going to be the Emmys. Before we get into that, I did just want to circle back. The other thing that Academy can't seem to figure out is what's a limited series because TV can't figure out what a limited series is. It's limited or anthology, and I guess I'll hear the White Lotus is an anthology argument from whoever wants to make it.

But it is coming back with Jennifer Coolidge and Mike White. So, you know, I think you could quibble over that, but that was a very, very popular and successful thing. I do think the other takeaway from the industry from that night is our guy, our devoted listener, HBO's Casey Blois, came off real well. You know, because White Lotus, if you remember, came about because he called Mike White and was like, not just I'm a fan and I'd love to keep working with you, but he called Mike White specifically during the summer of the pandemic being like, I know you right quickly. Yeah. can we get something going? And talk about, you know, delivering on a, I mean, that's wild. That's, that is like, that's unicorn stuff.

Just like I'm going to call someone and it's going to spin into an enormously successful award-laden franchise for us going forward. And then that's not even talking about succession or Gene Smart winning for hacks, et cetera, et cetera. To your point about the broadcast, yeah, look, I have empathy here. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. When you get, it's a thankless job. You get hired to produce an award show. you are being told to do two things at once every time. Make a big scene and don't be noticed.

Do something different and keep it exactly the same. It's not really possible to succeed, except every few years, like a Tina and Amy hosted Golden Globes, or frankly, the pandemic Emmys from two years ago, were suddenly the noise quiets and it just works. And I felt like this year was particularly egregious. Because to me, when these awards ceremonies go awry is when they kind of forget what people like about them, people do not like.

They watch them for people that they love, the stars of their stories, getting awards, and talking from the heart. And I can't think of a more militantly policed acceptance scenario than what we saw this night. So can I just be like, can we just talk about this for a second? What the fuck is going on with this? I feel like is there anyone in the country, in the world, who is like, the most important thing that happens during an award show is that we keep these speeches as brief as possible. I am a person, I'm ambit. You know, I can get up and go get a beer if I want to, if I'm getting bored of someone's acceptance speech.

Should they keep it within like the realm of like, do not thank your agent's third assistant for sure? But like, what the hell is it going on with like as soon as Quinta Brunson gets up there and she's stepping over Jimmy Kimmel. and that's a whole other kettle of fish we don't have to get into. But we can. She went on Jimmy Kimmel's show. She made fun of it. It was like they seem to have like,

they seem to be fine. But like, she is just one writing for a comedy series. This show is one of the few network hits that has been minted in a long time. It announced a new huge talent in the world of television. And you're hurrying her off 40 seconds in? So that we can.

keep to our preordained schedule of honoring famous TV star. Let me check my notes here. Gina Davis. Yeah, no disrespect to Gina Davis or her foundation, which was actually being nominated, like honored. What the fuck are we doing? Like, I know that they were clearly scarred by friend of the pods, Scott Frank, probably still talking, you know, from the other year.

I get it. And then they had this innovation where they're like, you're going to, if you're nominated, pre-submit a list of names, you know, basically like your team. I thought that was pretty cool. I actually thought that was pretty cool. So that way you don't, you cover your bases. You could maybe speak more from the heart.

But then they didn't let them speak more from the heart. That was what was so absolutely insane about it. And by the way, this is not the Oscars. The winner for best sound editing does not take the stage. All respect to sound editors who are a lot more important, frankly, than some actors who get nominated for things. I just mean that when they put controls like this into the Oscars, ostensibly it was so that the people who are famous,

get to talk more, which is a legitimate concern when you're producing a television show, right? This is the Emmys. It is banger after banger. The show barely started, and Michael Keaton is up there, crack and wise. The talent is going to be there. Jennifer Coolidge, a totally bizarre career arc and a dramatically funny and surprising and unpredictable person, what are you doing, making her moment about you so we can get to Sam J and Zed, nobody wanted that. Nobody cares, no disrespect to them, but that's not what this show is.

And it was disgraceful, frankly. Like, what is the moment that people remember about the show? It's Cheryl Lee Ralph, who is deserving, who is just astounding, who if you haven't already listeners, this is Chris's favorite part. That's not the moment of the show, but go ahead. The moment of the show is definitely just,

Armstrong getting two feet into a six feet deep Queen Elizabeth joke. Yeah. And pulling the plane up. And Brian Cox. You're Brian Cockc, you'll keep it, Royalist. I know you love it when I recommend other podcasts on this podcast. Sherley Ralph was on fresh air the day the Emmys came on, and it is incredible. It's incredible.

I think I would appreciate it more if it wasn't one of three podcasts that you recommended. I only listened to three podcasts. Bill Simmons. Yes. Mark Baron and fresh air. And now the ringers Philly special. That's it. Yeah.

That's it. I keep it tight. I keep it lean. And it keeps me busy. That was a beautiful, glorious moment. And like, to your point,

Quinta Brunson, like, this is a coronation for Abbott Elementary and it is deserved. We love that show. And we also love what that show is. It is purely good vibes.

When you think about the, the genesis of that show and the way that, you know, they sent out that pilot, the pilot was up for a while on Hulu, obviously, to like generate interest. Yeah,

before premier. Then they did a half, season and a pretty long break, right? I think. Before it came back? Yeah, before he came back. And as the show was starting, that was not a nailed on, this is a second season show by any means. And even as they wrote that show or as they, like, at least the way it played when it was on screen,

you were like, there are off ramps here for this show to be a one and done. Not that they would want it that way at all. But like, you know, you get to the end of the school year. Is this guy going to go get another job? What is she going to do? what's her boyfriend going to do, all that stuff. It's the success story of the year for TV. Yeah, and guys, like under the hood,

this is a Warner Brothers show on a Disney controlled network, which used to be normal. Now it's not. So everyone at ABC is thrilled and excited, but corporately, they're not looking to continue relationships so they have to pay more to someone else. They want everything in-house. So the show has to succeed twice to be doubly successful

to be considered a success internally. And it is. And the Emmys at their best, like, yeah, as you said, we would love to see certain people who didn't win, we wish they had won. But when you look at it from a macro perspective, the sharing of the flowers is better for everyone and better for TV. Like, Succession winning and Squid Game winning, Abbott Elementary winning and Ted Lassau winning. Like, that's good. We want other people and other voices and other faces up on that screen. And I take your point about Station 11. I don't really look at awards shows as Discovery Engines. Yeah, I think that's no longer the case. I think that the idea that it would be great if that was the case, it would be fantastic if like really, really great work got broke through in this award setting so that people, I think sometimes that has become a little bit more of a hallmark of the Oscars, or at least in the past it has,

where it's like this film, it's going to win Best Picture because it's a Best Picture winner, and then it will go on to make $60, $80 more million at the box office because everybody's like, I guess I have to go see this movie that won Best Picture. Have you heard about Roberto Benini? This guy's killing it. You know, like, I don't know.

A long career predicted ahead for him. And maybe every, but like, honestly, now, I think Succession draws a bigger audience than the Emmys. Well, I mean, that's the thing we buried that lead. Like, this was the lowest rated Emmys ever. I think a lot of that has to do, there will be a lot of hand-wringing. A lot of that has to do with a Monday night against Monday Night Football thing. Like, I think- That Monday Night Football game was weird too.

You know, that was, that was edgy your seat stuff. Well, it's just a crowded space, and that's just what's going to happen for all of these shows. I do think it would have been better for everyone had they laser-focused the show to be like, hey, you know what you're watching right now? Dummies? TV. You know what we're going to do? Give you the best of it in one night.

And, you know, I just wish, you know, let's combine these two threads of the conversation. People love hard knocks, right? Like every year they pick a different team and they're in the locker room and people where like, I guess I'm a Detroit Lions fan now, I would pay an extra subscription service fee to be in the writer's room of this Emmys where they were like, let's dance to theme songs. I just want to know when you,

I mean, you have to write from a creative place always. You can't be like, who is the audience member that is going to be receiving this? You have to send your sonar pings of creativity out into the universe with the blind belief that someone will be receiving on that frequency. But you have to imagine someone, wanting to receive it, right? You have to, just at some point, you have to think there is a composite

straw audience member who is just like, yes, let's do the Friends theme song in 2022, but just kind of do it? Like, what were we doing, Chris? Well, so let me ask you this. I don't, like, what is, who are the Emmys for in terms of being a broadcast? Like, if you're going to make the Emmys, there's a whole cohort of people who are probably just going to read about it the next day on vulture in the ringer and look at Twitter and see somebody won. And then it's like, you must watch Cheryl Lee, Ralph's acceptance speech. You pretty much get the same sensation, even if you didn't watch it live. If you're just like, cool, I watched the three speeches that popped. I saw who won if I care. So that's like a whole group of people who are like kind of looky-lose.

Then there is the, I'm watching this out of like, I guess I like award shows. But you have it being pulled in all these different directions. Like the Sam J thing is a really good example. where I felt like it was like a hat on a hat kind of thing where they were like, here's like the normal, like, here's, Keenan is going to do like the regular hosting job. And then Sam is going to kind of lampoon what's happening,

but also be like speaking to a younger audience about like, I just couldn't understand like there's like such a self-conscious. Like we don't want to like ignore any quadrant of possible viewer. And by doing that, we just never really have an identity as a show. Well, I think it's also, it's the kind of thing that was made clear when, like who killed, who worked, you know?

And honestly, Steve Martin and Martin Short, they were just funny. And I think it's instructive that they were funny because they were doing the same sort of stuff that they would have done 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30, 35 years ago on an award show. Because the box of the award show is still that old. There's a reason why there was a rumor that those three people,

Steve Martin, Martin Short and Selena Gomez should host the Oscars. Even though it was like, you're on, they're on television. It was like, there was a rumor about that and you can make the argument that they should host the Emmys. You can't, it's like in real estate when you're like, this place has good bones. And if it has good bones, then you can renovate it and you can update it. You can be creative with it. And it's going to be fine. You can't change the bones.

And I think that's where we're at with these award shows. You know, they are old-fashioned mechanisms that can still deliver transcendent moments and while doing the business of what they're meant for. You can try to iterate in the margins, but it's just, it's just. Yeah, you want the TV award show to be good television. Yeah. Ultimately what we're saying. And I, my question is, how much longer are these, is this show going to be on broadcast television? Like, at what point is going to be like a peacock exclusive?

Emmys on Peacock? Oh my God, that's dark. Because NBC is like, we're not broadcasting past 8 p.m. Yeah. Have you, have you, well, I mean, on the plus side, have the word Emmys and Peacock been said out loud together yet. I mean, so, right? This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere

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Do you want to talk a little bit about industry before we go? Because we're doing a shorter show today because we have a big one on Monday. And a big one on next Thursday, too. Big week. Yeah. So, I mean, industry still is amazing. This last week, I was kind of wondering in our relationship, who's the one wolf and who's the cub, you think?

Wow. You have a couple, you have a little bit of some months on me. And I have some cubs. That's true. You know what? I'm going to be generous and say that at times, Chris, I've been the wolf and you've been the cub. And at other times, it's been the reverse. I think it's true.

I think that's true. I think that's the nature of a successful symbiotic relationship, the sort that is not modeled on the television show industry. This was an episode that, if I can paraphrase. John Polito from Miller's Crossing was largely about ethics. It was about ethics. You know, I loved that almost every character, with the exception of Harper, who is unashamed, almost in any element of her life, like every character was blanched at one offense and then committed another on their own terms.

So when Harper calls Gus, for instance, in this episode, Lomutham and asks for essentially insider information on government medical. contract, it's taken as sort of like, harbor you need to like really step away from the ledge and think about what you're doing. But in his own way, and in a more socially accepted way, Gus then goes to a professor and pressures them to let Leo into college.

Yep. And uses the weight of the government behind him to do so. So everybody is corruptible in this show. And I think that the thing that I'm most looking forward to seeing in the final episode is, whether the universe of the show looks poorly upon that corruption, I guess. When you're making a television show,

do you feel the need to be some kind of God? Do Mickey down in Conraday feel the need to, because I don't think they're very judgmental people. I don't think they're very judgmental artists. In terms of like they're depicting behavior, I don't think they want anybody to have their comeuppance unnecessarily or because they deserve something. but I'm very curious to see

this has been such a thrill to watch like this sort of like Mad Men-esque break from PurePoint this formation of possibly a new company, although I'm still worried about our our foursome there. But yeah, like what, like do you think

that there is a reckoning in the world of industry? I think this episode is a good canvas for that conversation because to me it's, the answer is, within the scene with Kenny and Yaz. That was beautifully twisty to end up in that place.

To end up in a place where Yasmin has behaved, you know, I think objectively, pretty terribly to a young colleague, basically telling her to get used to it. This is the world you've chosen to be in and probably best for everyone to shut up. and then have the person delivering that morality judgment blow be the least worthy of holding that hammer. Kenny. Yeah. You know, that is a sign of a complexity in storytelling and a lack of binary moral judgment on the part of the creators that I really can get behind and really admire. And it was also, to take one further step back, a sign of why I think this season has just been a

total triumph. You know, at the beginning of the year, when we talked to Mickey and Conrad, we talked about their attempts to lay some more traditional storytelling pipe and to adhere to more traditional television storytelling mechanisms, even though the first season had largely issued that and also, I think, their own taste being, like anyone who enters into any system, whether it is those guys or Harper, you kind of think you know better. You kind of think you can find the edges that haven't been found before. The way that this season has simultaneously been a little bit more traditional in that there is a causality of events, in that the world of the season is a little bit tiny town, right? That Gus's journey, which is otherwise completely

unrelated to Peerpoint, he's sleeping with Jesse Bloom's son, which allows for scenes like the one you're mentioning. Now, is that convenient? Yes, because it's an eight-episode television season. and of course it's convenient. So you can look at it that way and then still admire what it got us. And what it got us was every step each character took was directly connected to something another character had done previously.

So that the threads of Rob's Bender at Oxford touch Yasmin here. And also then, like another domino falling, lead to DVD's complete sudden moral reckoning and disillusionment with a place to which he's devoted to his entire career. And then because these guys, and so I feel like, and again, we'll talk to them about it, I hope again, I'm glad you mentioned the bathroom stall wanker thing.

Because what it allows Conrad and Mickey to do, I think, is to relax into the structure that the story is providing and that the medium is providing. And then use their wildfire creative chops to craft a moment like DVD being in a stall, looking left, looking right, looking up, wanker. That's the artistry, right? The artistry doesn't have to be in, I'm going to get the, pieces arranged on the chess board in a way that is completely ignorant of the history of chess. And not to, you know, I also just, yeah.

It's just a more stylish way to play. And I really appreciate that about this season. We talked about it a couple of times, but I think that the balance of text and subtext in this show is just pretty miraculous. The scene with Rob and Nicole and Venn and the restaurant where Harry Lotton does like an amazing job in that scene of just basically just being lit on fire. This whole season. Yeah. Yeah. And he's just sort of taking it and taking it, taking it, and then he has that, like, he breaks away and you have that, like, sinking in your heart feeling, like, is he going to go get lit? And he doesn't, but, like, you know, the better angels come out and he checks on her, which is going to wind up being probably

his undoing when it comes to any kind of, uh, if he gets in trouble with the firm at all. But the, you know, to be able to watch a scene like the one where Darya comes back in and sits down. And it's, you're essentially finding out that Eric's whole, like, we're going to go to the Yankees, we're going to go to the Yankees thing, was the Yankees playing almost a prank on Eric and Harper to fish out or to lure out another group from a different company. And now they're going to have to go to a Japanese financial services company or a bank to offer their wares to replace the people who were taking the job that they wanted

in the first place. That took me a little while to unpack, but I also got it. Like when you're watching it, it's like, I get what's happening, even if I don't understand every single bit of the itinerary. another point to make that I think it's important. Like, these last few episodes have been a thrilling tribute to homage celebration of Mad Men. I mean, they named the episode. I mean, they had Eric say, you know, shut the door, have a seat. Like, these guys are fans of Mad Men. But it's also important to consider their perspective on their own creations. Because one of the

things about Mad Men, in one of its foundational texts, if you will, is that Don Draper was the best at this. Matt Weiner set it up that Don Draper was the generational genius. Yeah, he's the prince who was promised for sure. Yes, he is. And so he gets in his own way and his behavior can be monstrous and things don't always line up. But he is on a glide path towards inventing a give the world a Coke and like succeeding. I think that what this episode revealed, if you're talking about Mickey and Conrad's own morality, is that Rishi is the prince who was promised? Well, we should mention that before he moved. on. It's that Eric and Harper aren't nearly as good as they think they are. And maybe it doesn't even

matter about being good in such a nonsense field where it is all bluster and bullshit and other people's money. Jesse's not even returning her calls. And she's like, he hasn't returned my calls, which means I'm in his head. That was amazing. But you know what I mean? And that also, it's a little marker left for us that what the show is about is not about lionizing in a Michael Mann-Gloss, like the kings of finance and industry. It's about certain people's super fucked up psychology leads them to delusions of very, very, very, very well-paying grandeur and what it actually says about them to see them constantly humiliated. And I think that's also the sign of really smart and engaged creators, which is that those three

people, Harper, Eric, and Rishi, among the fandom, which is, I guess, led by us, have a near universal curating and they got fucking dragged. They got humiliated and kicked in the shins, right? Like there was no real glory moment for any of them this episode. I mean, other than Rishi just clearly cementing himself as an integral part

of the show, thank God. That's a great place to end. We were produced by Kai McMullen. We'll wrap it up there. Andy and I will be back, like I said, Monday night to recap House the Dragon, the season finale of industry and also chat a little bit about Atlanta. We have a very, very, very

fun week next week because it's and or week. Special guests incoming. Andy, I will see you on Monday night. If any Bransky's out there can do a little tech support on SD cards. It'll be a little late by the time they hear this. Might not be. Might not be. Talk to you soon.