The Watch - The ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2 Premiere and ‘Presumed Innocent’ Episodes 1 and 2

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the premiere of ‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2 and whether or not you can properly engage with this episode without doing some light reading about the plot beforehand (11:24), as well as improvements the show has made since its first season (21:23). Then they talk about the first two episodes of ‘Presumed Innocent,’ and how its stacked cast with people like Ruth Negga, Peter Sarsgaard, and Bill Camp take it from good to great (35:39). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers, dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Dan Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Pee! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoradic arthritis. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis.

Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. Big fan of cheese, not so much blood. It's Andy Greenwald. Is it blood and cheese or bread and cheese? Blood and cheese were the two homies at the end of House of the Dragon episode one that you just watched last night. Oh, I thought it was bread and cheese. I like those things.

I wanted to like something. I can tell we're going to have such a constructive conversation. It's going to be great. About House of the Dragon. And we're also going to talk about presumed innocent, but it's so. Oh, great to see your beautiful little face. I'm back. Do I look tan?

Do people get tan in the desert? They get cooked. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. You look like T.E. Lawrence, you know? Or what I imagine him to look like. From the film Lawrence of Arabia. Yeah.

As played by Alec Guinness. No, by Peter O'Toole. I'm sorry, by Peter O'Toole when he was not actually in costume. When he was just an Englishman. Yes, exactly. How are you doing, man? It's great to see you. I am great.

I'm back from your. Not ancestral home, but I think in many ways... Intellectual base. Your political home. The great state of Arizona. What a roller coaster ride it was. Sure. Through the heart of Purple America.

Thanks for holding it down on Thursday. You're welcome. Yeah. Thank you to Mina for coming on and talking about Tokyo Vice. That was really fun. I like, by the way, that Mina, like when we have guests that have been on our podcast multiple times, like Jason Manzukas, for example, like we usually... Who may be coming on again soon. Well, this is what I'm... We used to. We used to. We used to, Chris, we used to share the guests.

In this country? Right. You know, we used to live in a society. Mina is now just something that we both reach for. Yes. When the other is unavailable. Have you had Mina on a podcast before? Yeah, I do a podcast called Stick the Land.

There was a period where I did a podcast called Stick the Land. He might do it again. Yeah, Mina was a great guest on that. She's fantastic. And today, obviously, we're going to talk a little bit about a little bit. We're going to talk about House of the Dragon, which came back for its second season. You can listen to me talk extensively. Well, really actually more playpoint guard for Mal and Joe on Talk the Thrones, which is on the house of our audio feed on Spotify and wherever you get your podcast.

It's also on the ringer versus YouTube channel. Shout out to everybody who worked on that show. That was a really on our Talk to Throne show because it was a really fun experience so far. And that goes up Sundays after the show airs. So you can just find us on YouTube. You can watch along where you can talk all about those crazy kids, you know, and the way that they just solve their problems on that show. I'm so happy that you have that show. look forward to it. I love everybody involved. It also frees us up to talk about the real action

on Sunday night, which was the Tonys? Yes. Don't you think the show should just settle into what it is? DeBose. Is she really walking away from it? No, our guy groff. Big win. No, I know. I know. I was just saying Ariana De Bozzi was like she said she's maybe done after three times hosting the Tonys. Do you think they're going to ask you? Um, I think you're probably a more likely selection. You're more of a song and dance guy. That is true. Yeah. That is true. Um, You don't want me to tell you about the Grand Canyon? I do, sure. Yeah.

I was going to tell you about the U.S. Open and my beloved Oilers. I checked in with you. First of all, here's how beautiful our friendship is. Yesterday morning, I woke up at a, you know, non-5 a.m. time. That's not true. I woke up at a 5 a.m. time, but I didn't text you until, like, 8. And I just wrote the Oilers. Yeah.

Because I looked at ESPN. I was happy for you. That you're lifelong... You wrote the Oilers and you had a crying emoji. Happy crying. Yeah, happy crying emoji. Yeah, because they weren't going down like that. No, fuck that.

As a life, as long as I've known you, you've been passionate about two things. Smoking cigarettes and Edmonton Sports. And, you know, you've got one of those things still going in your life. I was happy for you. Thank you. Have you ever been to the Grand Canyon or have you only seen Lawrence Kasden's 1992 film Grand Canyon? No, I have not actually been to Arizona. I don't think.

That's a great cover story. I was trying to do my head yesterday all the places I've been. Wow. Because I was trying to be like, you know, this. This is the most child-free shit ever. You're just sitting around my weekend, just thinking about places you've been. Watching Bryson to Shapo and thinking about what legendary. How many places in Texas I've been to and what else is on my list.

And I've never been to Arizona, I don't believe. Well, Grand Canyon is, I'm here to tell you, it's worth it. Yeah, is it cool? Oh, my God. Yeah. What's it like during the day? What do you mean? Is it like bright and hot kind of like, you know, it's like,

all of Arizona? Sunset, it's just the fucking money time. Okay, well, a couple things. The city of Phoenix, I'm sure has a lot going for it. They were in the World Series last year, unfortunately. That is, in June, that is the surface of the sun. I've been to Vegas in July, so I know of what you speak. It was 111.

I heard this week they're hitting 114. And the best thing about it is at night, it's like 89. 90. Right. It's still hot. It makes you feel unwell instantly. I know. So that's not my fave. And by the way, I did, you know, I sent you and Kai, a picture of a street sign for your Gal Carey Lake. I tried to take one to bring back for you as a gift. And I wanted to say, and the irony is, as I was putting it into my rented Chevrolet, someone said, stop the steel. Did you know that? I'm glad that you asked if you could talk about Arizona built all the way. It was just for that joke.

It was just for that joke. The Grand Canyon is worth it. But no, but the thing, Chris, that you being a coastal elite might not realize is that there's a lot of different elevations in Arizona and different climate. So when you leave Phoenix and you drive north, like Flagstaff, beautiful, beautiful college town just up in the... What college?

The northern Arizona state, I believe. Great town. I really did like it. Good. And a lot of pine tree forests. And then the elevation up there is like 8,000 feet, which is real high. And so it was much nicer up there by the Grand Canyon. Okay.

And then so obviously... And I really recommend it. It was absolutely stunning. And I also want to give a special shout out to our Grand Canyon tour guide, Werner, who was great. And he is a man who was a stockbroker in Munich for 20 years and visited the Grand Canyon and now lives off the grid. And he asked my daughters if they knew what off the grid meant. Did you appreciate that?

You know, I feel like they're at the age where they should be asking questions and learning. Did they say, Dad, I want to go off the grid? Luckily, I think they struggled at times with his accent. Okay. Because he was very nice and he was very good at his job and he's very passionate about wildlife and about the national parks. He also does look and sound like a diehard villain. So it was mixed messages. That's great, man.

It's one of the wonders of the world? Yes. Is it? Officially? told me they have recat because people kept trying to cram new wonders in, they now have two different lists. There's the seven natural wonders of the world of which it is a proud member. Okay. So we got, well, there's a lot listed when you go to wonders of the world. This is what I mean because now they're like, now there's seven like man-made wonders.

Oh, okay. So we got great pyramid. Sure. Gardens of Babylon. Yeah. Petra. Not familiar with their work. Temple of Artemis. Uh-huh. Colossus of Roe. A lot of the stuff is even there. Rank them. Who's your Mount Rushmore? Well, you know what? I've been to Tulsa and I have not been to any of these things. What have I, have I been to any wonders of the world?

That's so sad. I recommend. This is crazy. I've never been to a wonder of the world. Well, I think you're right that like the hanging gardens of Babylon would be a tough. It's a tough ticket. That's a tough ticket. I don't know if the verbo market is robust by the hanging, hanging G's.

Oh, my God. Yeah, it's amazing. It was amazing. Well, I just feel like really empty inside now. I watch like six hours of golf. I could have been of Machu Picchu. What's incredible is that you were watching golf yesterday. Just feeling good about yourself for all the spots you've seen.

Well, you know what? Yesterday was the payoff. Yesterday was like for all the golf I've watched. I've never seen what happened yesterday. Like, I've never seen anything like that yesterday. That was exciting. Yeah, it was Bryson DeShambo versus Rory McElroy, ultimately, in the U.S. Open. Yeah.

A lot of the central conflict of professional golf on display between Liv and the PGA and all this stuff. Did the Saudis win or did we win? They did. But Bryson, you know what? I mean, he can't take anything. He did something on the 18th hole. He basically got up and down from a bunker about 50 yards out. And it was like the fucking sickest shot I've ever seen.

And Rory completely blew it. So what are you going to do? But it's sports, man. The Agony of defeat. What a day for you. And England won? England did win. I'm not getting ahead of myself.

You don't think it's coming home? I just think it's a long month. Let's just wait it out. I think maybe not bringing, I think having like no left back other than Tripier and Luke Shaw. Luke Shaw is her. Tripier's not left back.

I was about to say it. Yeah. You got your first experience of Jude Bellingham. Yeah, I love the Euros. And one of the reasons I love the Euros is because every four years, I can be like, I would die for this guy that I learned about 10 minutes ago. Yeah.

And I had a Jude Bellingham experience yesterday. Yeah. I was a believer. And then due to some light Googling, I discovered that Jude's father is just one year our senior. That was a tough one. Do you know what I mean? That's going to happen more and more, though. But I had settled pretty comfortably, okay, now I'm realizing this was 10 years ago,

that I'd settled comfortably into the era of watching sports and people being like, this guy is held together by arthritis glue. And he's six years younger than you. He is brave to be playing at 37 or whatever. Yeah. I wasn't ready to be like, that is my son. Yes.

That's also happening now with guys who we watched their kids now being pros. Oh, that's a tough one. Yeah. All right. This has all been, I'm sure,

edifying for people. I think so. It's tough to quantify. anticipation, but I feel like this is one of our more anticipated episodes in a while because I think the people really want to know how you feel about House of the Dragon. How dare you? Now, you're coming into this season. I could tell just from the text last night in a way that I think is interesting because

I would imagine for many non-Georg-R-Martin fanatics or deep fans of the Game of Thrones world, you've faced a common predicament last night. Okay. Which is what the fuck is going on? Oh, yeah, yeah. I am now fully... Because this has been two years. Yes.

Since House of the Dragon season one was on. And House of the Dragon season two picks up immediately after the action of season one. And I have to admit, like, I did obviously a lot of work on the first season. I'm doing work on the second season with Talk the Thrones. It required a degree of like, for as much as I play up, like, oh, what's this guy's name? I did have to like refresh myself pretty deeply about like what the fuck was going on. And I do think this is a hopefully a relatively neutral statement. I think even partisans of this show would grudgingly agree that defining distinct characters was not the first season strong point.

And I think that this is something that you could have this experience with say people will have it with rings of power. Right. Like you can look at rings of power and you're like, wait, what? Like what's the deal and how is it really? how early, how many years before Lord of the Rings is this and what's going on and who's this person and who's that person. And that's certainly how I feel about Rings of Power. And I think I've just chosen Dragon. I've chosen Dragon to be like, I got it. I understand. I understand who these people are and whose cousin this is. That's all kind of besides the point. I just thought it was an

interesting way to be going into a series where you, you know, if you wanted to be on solid ground, you probably needed to do some light reading before you watched it. Yeah, and I also want to be very, very clear, if I wasn't clear two years ago when I talked about the show. Like, I am now fully on the other side of the wall from this world and this stuff. I am not doing the weekly show that you guys are doing.

I am not as immersed in it. Yeah. I am frankly not as... I'm not as interested in it. Yeah. And it was a kind of a fascinating experience to be fully the guy that used to come up to us during the Game of Thrones air,

for clarification. You know, like, I did not understand or remember a great deal. Yes. I'm going to say that up front. I did not prep. I did not rewatch. I think that's a good way to watch, honestly. Cold.

Well, I think it's instructive. It's instructive about, like, what are we asking people to do when they participate in a television show? Are we asking them to keep in mind source material, have a family tree open, rewatch 10 hours of television? from before. Have read multiple books so that your reaction can be more about discrepancies or deviations as opposed to what was presented on the screen.

Yeah, and how much is the conversation? So for everybody going forward, we're obviously going to be spoiling the first episode of this season. The last scene of this episode would have been controversial enough because of what takes place, which is a child's murder. Right. But exploding out of this in the kind of online discourse about the show is the differences between what the show depicts

and what George R. Martin did in his sort of historical faux history of the realm where the murder is much more brutal. Helena is asked to choose which child she wants to have killed.

Well, she is in this too. But then they kill the one, the opposite one. It's more of a Sophie. It is Sophie's choice. Yes. Right. Sophie has more choices in the book.

Before we get into those discrepancies, I do want to start with the positive, which is that to my eyes, this show through one episode is unambiguously better than the first season. I think that is... I think that for a number of reasons. One just may be that it has caught up to the story it wants to tell. I am, as you know, incredibly excited to talk about presumed innocent in the next segment of this podcast. But one of the things that I love about it, that I will talk about soon, I promise, is that it just starts where it needs to start and goes. There isn't the throat clearing in the preamble.

There is no greater example of contemporary TV clearing throats than the first season of House of the Dragon, which whips through decades of story and recasting to get to the point where it wanted to be, which is this season. So immediately the pace and the tone and the engagement is different. And I think that's a positive. And I think that probably everyone involved with the show was saying that two years ago, like just you wait, you know, which is something that people who have the source material. often say when things are being adapted at whatever pace. Didn't have that problem with Game of Thrones, though. Did not. I think the other reason why it's clearly better might be due to, look, I mean, you get more reps,

you get better at it. And so Ryan Condal, who developed the show and show ran the first season with George Martin, this time it wasn't as big of a risk, right? Like maybe he's more comfortable in the world and comfortable in his place telling the story, knows he's going to have more seasons doing this. So maybe that's reflected in the confidence of the storytelling. I also wonder if it's worth crediting. I don't know anything about behind the scenes,

but I noticed that one of contemporary Prestige TV's best producers, like Boots on the Ground producers, Melissa Bernstein, who worked with Vince Gilligan on all of the Breaking Bad universe things, is on the show now beginning in season two. I don't know what her role was. I don't know how day-to-day it was, but when I see her name in the credits, I'm like, okay, that is a,

that is a professional who's really good at what she does. Also, veteran television director and future director, Alan Taylor, has sort of moved into the Miguel Sapachnik role. And Miguel Sapachanik is known for his sort of awe-inspiring set pieces that many of Game of Thrones' biggest moments are his doing. Alan Taylor, I think, moves through plot and scenes a little bit more efficiently. Yeah, and is empowered to do it. And, you know, even smaller things like it was brighter.

You know, on my television, it looked brighter and look better. I also think without the constant, I mean, it's a Game of Thrones show, there will be cast churned because people don't live very long on the show. But this time, I was able to settle in a little bit more with like Resey Funds and Matt Smith are phenomenal actors in anything that they do. So getting more chances to watch them and settle with that, it was better. So that's good. Yeah. That's all better. I am so happy you're going to talk about the show with other people and another podcast because fundamentally this is not for me. Gotcha. I am not interested in this story. I think that I continue to think that

there was a decision made that is clearly working. I know Casey Boyes is adamant about this, as other people in HBO, that they feel, and I think they've been justified in feeling correct in the story they chose to continue the Game of Thrones universe. The ratings bear that out, the awards and nominations that it's gotten, bear that out. For me, this show continues to feel like, as if people had been like, wow, James Cameron's Titanic was such a huge, compelling four-quadrant hit. Let's make a follow-up show about the boat, because that was the star of the movie. Right.

I don't get the reasoning or the compelling stakes or drama for a show about people who are in power and want to hold on to power. The throne was the least interesting thing about Game of Thrones to me. But it was, I mean, it would be ridiculous to be like that wasn't like a central conceit of Game of Thrones. It was a central driver and it was the correct framing for that show, but it's, but it was about the world and it was about multiple people moving towards a goal. and that goal wasn't always the same goal of dominance. People had different reasons for doing the things that they did. And the humanity that was brought to the, you know, the first, the Lannisters being the villain and then Jamie becoming oddly heroic.

I mean, that is an interesting journey within a character, right? I don't really see those arcs in this show. I see a lot of despicable people doing despicable things for reasons that make sense to them, but I don't see the humanity in anything that they're doing. Yeah. So do you think that there is, for you, an issue that there isn't a John Snow or a Rob Stark or a DeNaris or somebody who is trying for to do something?

You know, like that there is someone out there. There's a struggle. Yeah, but like also like a moral balance. You know, and I think the distinction between the two houses here, the greens and the blacks, is I think maybe one thing not to speak for you is complicating things, is that with the exception of Reneira, there really isn't like a hero figure in this.

And Reneer obviously is now, whether by her own hand or overseen, like overseen some pretty dark shit happening. Yeah. I wonder whether or not like that sort of moral light and dark thing is the absence of that as part of what is a difference between Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon. I think the moral light and dark,

but also the sensibility light and dark. I think the one moment for me that really worked in this episode just as a scene, like that I was like, oh, I'm enjoying this. I'm interested in this point of view, is that was the small council meeting. I thought you were going to say the barnacles being scraped off that boat. Well, I wanted more time with that guy. Alan? What's your life like? What's your day to day when you're not pulling sea snakes out of the open water? You know what I mean?

Tom Glincarney plays Agon. Yeah. he's having a good time. Well, he's, he's one of my guys. He's in Rogue Heroes. Oh, yeah. I recognize that face. He's, he's having a good time in that scene.

And that, that dynamic of like, this, this game's a piece of shit. And we got to, we got to just keep kind of gritting our teeth through it. Uh-huh. Brought his performance. It brought, and everything elevated it, I thought. And also brought, like, some levity and just a tonal shift to the show. Look, the other stuff, like, I feel like the debate, which we should talk about, about the end of the episode and how it played out, I think is the problem for me that I don't know if it's a surmountable problem, even though, and I mean it, like, the show's better. I'm going to watch the season and then if there's opportunities to talk about it or if we like...

Yeah, I don't know that we're going to talk about it every Monday anymore. No, but I think that if it swings one way or another or if it's worth talking about, like, we are going to talk about it because it's part of the conversation. but the larger conversation about TV. But that the last moment, right, is building to something that wants to be excruciating and devastating and like a real Sophie's Choice moment that is. And for a deeply casual fan,

which I'm saying that I now am, so much depends on that scene works only if you understand implicitly in your gut who, is, who's in those beds, what this means for her, for the show, for every character we've seen, both Damon who's set this in motion, and Renera, who's going to be held responsible for it,

and to Allison, all these characters that we should be invested in emotionally. I'm very curious, you know, at some point I will talk to Joe and Mal about this too, like about their emotional investment in these characters as performed by these actors or the roles they play in the larger history that they care about and you're deeply invested. I think that that's actually the... Go ahead. I'll follow it up. But all of this building to a point where...

I'll just talk you through it. And if people listening are like, this fucking idiot needs to pay more attention or have his Wikipedia page open, that's valid. But that's also saying something about the show that's being produced because I am usually, I think,

a pretty literate and attentive TV watcher, and I'm going to be very honest about my experience watching this. My understanding is they are sent in to kill Amund, who is a tall, near-adult man with an eyepatch. And then there's sort of an implication that scene cuts off when he's just like, should we kill someone else

if we have the chance, right? And he smiles. And he smiles. And the smile is left ambiguous, both to not foreshadow too heavily, but also to protect Damon from being, like we were saying about Jamie Lanister, to still allow some ambiguity of character so we can root for both sides at the same time.

They, it's extremely easy to get into the castle, I would say. they get into the castle walk past the gang They work there They're the White House plumbers Yeah Is what you're saying

It's basically Watergate They go They find Helena And in this episode Again going solely off this episode I remembered and I saw In that good first scene That Helena is Agon's wife

And is a little bit She's a dreamer She's a dreamer She sees things She's a vision I remember little Jeharis from his appearance in the scene that I liked.

Uh-huh. Trying to ride a Lannister. Yeah, that always goes great. And then there are two kids in the, in bassinets. Yeah. I didn't know who the other one was.

I did not know there were twins. I did not know what her intention was in pointing one out over the other. In fact, she did it so quickly, my assumption was something was up,

that she was misleading them as they suggested that she was. She then runs away to Allison, interrupts a little something, and says they killed the boy. My thought was, did Allison have a fake baby put in that room because she knew this was coming?

I'm being honest with you. I did not understand why you would say about the murder of your son, they killed the boy. I love the idea, though, in the greenwald cut. Allison dismounts Kristen Cole is like, don't worry about it.

I put a fake baby in your room. Yes. Yes, she was, in the words of Pusha, hiding a child. Yeah, yeah. That is a stupid misunderstanding. I got to say, I don't know, yeah, I don't know why you would think a fake baby would come into play here.

Because what I mean is I am putting myself out. That was a idiotic way to watch the scene. Right. Come at me. It's totally fine. I will take all of the slings and arrows and blades that I deserve. What I'm saying, though, is

I was not emotionally cognizant and vibing as to what was going on in that scene, which made it, to me, muddled, which muddles the purpose of all of it. If I'm not emotionally invested in the death of a child, I'm easily emotionally invested

in the death of children. That is a very hard thing for me and most people to engage with, and I was just befuddled by it. And then to read later and hear that people were saying that, oh, in the book, let me just stop here by saying this.

When people are like, George Martin crafted a much more emotionally complex vision of violence and grotesquery than we were given on television, it makes me pause. Because my understanding was that what was great often about Game of Thrones was that it did the opposite, that it pushed some of his stuff more into the easily understandable television. Even, you know, I mean this in a good way, soap operatic realm that a mass audience could follow and engage in, even if they didn't know the name of that guy over the. there. Sure. I mean, also, I've seen that this, this moment in this story

compared to Red Wedding, and one of the things about Red Wedding is, it's placement within the sort of grander story of Game of Thrones in general, and how by the time that happens, you're like really invested in Rob.

You know, like, you've watched Rob for, like, you're up around 30-some hours of television. Yeah, it was the 29th hour of the show, the end of the 29th hour. with Rob. So you're like, damn, I really care about this guy. Jaharis, we have seen for about 80 seconds. Which is par for the course for most child actors on this show before they become another character.

But it also, to your point, like, they can't keep playing all the hits, right? Like the thing about Rob Stark was that he looks like Prince Charming. And you are invested in him both because he's a decent and good character, but also he looks like the guy who wins. And the thing about Game of Thrones that made it so effective for so many people was the way It was just like, no, he doesn't. Yeah. Good guys don't win in this fairy tale. This show plays what it perceives to be the hits.

And literally, and I'm never going to let go of this, the fact that it just uses the same theme music is so wild to me. But the sense that it's like, okay, here comes something savage and shocking. It feels, it leaves me cold. It feels cynical. It's a little grotesque. And it's, I don't get it. Okay.

I don't get it. Yeah. You want to come on. I mean, I'm not going to fight with you about this. I think that I've kind of accepted it for on its own terms. It's not about like a bunch of really good people. It's about people who destroyed the world. And the Game of Thrones story is the attempt to put it back together, I think.

Right. It's also reaching back to a time where dragons were like a real everyday concern for both like warring factions of. royal families and militaries, but also, like, people who are, like, on the beach getting clams, and all of a sudden a dragon would fly over their head, or they'd find a dragon wing on the beach. I think that part is, like, pretty notable.

As far as, like, whether or not you need to have, like, a degree to watch it, I don't necessarily think that that's true. It's a pretty, like, light refresher course, and once you start going with it, I think it's pretty easy to follow. It's about where you try to find, like, your foothold with the show. And I think that for some people, the fact that there is not a John, Rob, or De Nierrez to watch, or a, not purely comic, but tragic comic character like Tyrion.

There's like so far, you know, we've had these two women in separate castles kind of isolated for ever since they've grown older and now apart. It's sort of like these two people kind of reaching across the void at each other and sometimes fighting and sometimes like longing for one another. that that's probably the central relationship of the show. And if you keep that in mind, I think it becomes quite sad, you know, to watch these two people, like, ultimately not want what's about to happen, happen. Yeah.

But... I think that's a nice observation. I think it's true. And I think it's well played by those actors. Yeah. I think they're good. Everyone in this is good. It's much more serious than Game of Thrones.

And it's much more, I think... I think it's just interesting to watch stuff happen in, like, places that we heard about in Game of Thrones. It's interesting to go back in time and see like, oh, how did like Haren Hall or the Riverlands or this or that? And I don't know how you felt about like being at the wall or were you just like, why the fuck are we at the wall in the beginning of the episode? It's, it's, this is, and this is also why I'm going to put myself on pause about it for the future, you know, for the, at least in terms of the way we used to cover this stuff. We talked about this a week or two ago. There's stuff that is mass market and then there's stuff that's more niche. and everyone has niche stuff that they're completely obsessed with.

You know, like I, like some people read one Elmore Leonard book. You know, we want to read all 30 of them. And that's great. And we enjoy that. And I understand why not everyone reads all 30 of them. Or there be 50. And he wrote, God, how many books are that guy right? Anyway, I like seeing Denis Villeneuve-Nove's Dune.

My interest level in the television show is next to zero. I'll see it. And if it's interesting on its own merits, then I'll watch it. But I don't need it because I don't, I don't. want to watch it because I just need more dune. I don't have any particular interest in... I don't think you're being stingy. I just don't particularly have interest in this world.

I had interest in those characters on that journey. That's the distinction that I think you're probably hitting. It's not the fact that you were like, Westeros is so interesting to me. I want to explore all the nooks and crannies of this world. It's that Rob, Jamie, Tyrion, all these people, these were the ones that were interesting to me. And it turns out I am not as interested in.

and what happened before that led to this moment. And so we can have, and we will have in different contexts, conversations about adaptation or about, you know, emotional engagement and how you build story over seasons. Like, this can come up and be relevant in conversations about the show or about how TV is made. The bigger thing that I think is worth saying is, like, this is very, very expertly done now.

I think it is clearly in its bag. I found it enjoyable a lot. I mean, like, really enjoyable to watch. It's almost inevitably going to get better as these actors get to play. play these parts longer. I mean, who knows on this show in terms of how long, but more so certainly

more consistency than last season. And it's about something I'm not interested in, just like there are plenty of other shows that I'm not interested in. And I think wrestling with that was a thing. And I feel,

despite my tone at times, I feel relatively at peace with that. Yeah. It is how content is made these days. It is the HBO version of brand management. And I think they do a good job of it. I do hope.

that you keep eye on the series just because I think that as the inevitable conflict between these two people leaves there, you're a dragonstone and I'm at King's Landing and we're just giving each other the middle finger across the sea. Until you fly a dragon across it and then just hang out by the gates, which you could do at any time. I think that as it spreads out a little bit, you may enjoy it more because simply like they're changing up locations. They're putting people in different places. One of the things that Game of Thrones did so well, was balance the DeNaris is over here and these guys are over here, but you can kind of see these lines coming together at a certain point.

Yes, and I agree that, like, you know, in this episode, they talk about how they're going to handle the Tully's, right? If there is a three-episode arc in season two of securing Tully allegiances and, like, a siege at the, was that the Riverlands? I don't, okay. But you know what, whatever. Yeah. The place that we've been before, where the Tullies are, that is something that was so well done in Game of Thrones, where the settings would change, the stakes would change, the faces would change.

But everyone was of a certain level of performer and invested in it. And the type of show it was could change, even within an episode. I like that. Yeah. And there's no reason why this can't do it. I just, there's, I think I don't, I stay in a certain place. and then it just becomes repetitive for me in terms of like,

like, what you're pointing out, there are some people who saw the beginning and we're like, yeah, Starks. I love Starks and I love the wall and get to the elevator when it's working. For me, I'm like, yeah, this is visiting something that isn't interesting yet. Uh-huh.

And all the like, why did you build this? It's not for the wildlings, wink, wink. It's like, yeah, it's for a Night King that gets killed real fast conveniently in the last season. No, it's for stuff that will be interesting. when the other show gets there. I think that here's the thing.

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on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Presumed Innocent is a show on Apple. This is the segue. It's had two episodes go up already the third one, I think, goes up like Wednesday or something like that.

I don't think it registered a single Richter or whatever. When I mentioned this to you over the last couple of weeks, I think you've just been like, oh, cool, okay, yeah. Yeah, oh, another Apple thing. Yeah. And then you watched it. Yep. And this might be my favorite show of the year.

I wish we started with this. I am so excited to talk about this show. I'm so excited. We should have said this at the beginning because one of the things, we do two things on the show. We tell you to watch stuff and then I tell you why I don't like stuff. This is something I want to tell people to watch. Well, I cannot, like, in my duties as the host of the show, I cannot in any responsible way put presumed innocent ahead of House of the Dragon just yet.

No, I know, but I mean, I should have been like, hey, guess what? Kaya, can you put presumed innocent? What a great show. Also, the 2024 Tonys. Andy goes to Arizona. And then, I think that's responsible stewardship. I appreciate that. Lay out. Tell me all about Presumed Dinnison. Well, you talked about it a little bit with Mina.

No, I mean, I just made, I did a little bit at the top where I was just like, this show is ridiculously good. This show is so good. And everybody should be watching it. It is. So, okay, so some backstory we could talk about, right? Like, the book by Scott Turow comes out in 1987. This is a time when, like, big books hit different in the culture.

Sure. I didn't read the book. Did you read the book when you were 10 years? I don't think I've never read the book. But it was that it was a thing. Like everyone's parents had that hardcover. It was the era of the Blockbuster Legal Thriller. That was the beach read.

It was John Grisham. It was Scott Tarot. This was his debut. And then it was turned into a very good Harrison Ford movie. Alan Pakula movie. Alan Pakula directed it. I remember I saw it in the theater. I remember the end very well.

We will not spoil the end of the book, the movie. Or even I'm not going to do guessing games on whether they're going to do it in the show either. I think the reason. I didn't really blink when I heard about it or when you mentioned it is because it felt kind of wrote. Like everything that has been made before was put back into production or redeveloped in the last five, six years to fill the streaming content boom. David E. Kelly is writing almost everything on TV. Apple harvest projects with big stars like Jake Gyllenhaal. There was no reason to assume it would be anything more than competent. Right? I mean, like I honestly was going into this

kind of a little bit tainted from fatal attraction on Paramount a little while ago which was a noble if like I was like you guys had there was a reason why this was a movie there's just not that much story I do not want to watch these two people tear each other apart for

and it lacked something that I will get to in a minute about what presumed innocent has. Yeah so I don't want to spoil even the first two episodes where people who haven't seen it we will in a moment first I just want to say like do it like bigger picture why the show is, I think the show is so good

and why it matters. Like I alluded to in the previous segment about House of the Dragon, this show just starts. It has confidence in its story, in its storytelling, in its characters, and its performers that we don't spend any time

with Jake Gyllenhaal as Rusty Savage sealing a case. I think we get literally one scene of him in court before the title card. And one scene of him catching baseball from his son before the phone call comes in and it's like your co-worker has died. It goes. This show also brings back the 90s in a way so much deeper than what Jack Donagy was talking about in 30 Rock.

This show has style. It has wit. It's sexy. It has an aesthetic. And it understands where it fits in a larger field of genre story. storytelling. This show is so smartly conceived that it's not just Jake Gyllenhaal in the lead. Like, this show, they cast freaks. They went up and down the cast list with people who get after it with weird choices and are fucking good and interesting. This show is serious. This is a legal thriller, potboiler, that it's about sex and violence and power, but it is not self-serious.

like Peter Sarsgaard and O.T. Fek-Benley, who I did not know, was such a funny and interesting actor from only really seeing him, I think, on Handmaid's Tale, as Tweedledum and Tweedled Dumber, as the, you know, the villainous co-workers and then turn, you know, prosecutors in this case are making such choices every time they're on the screen. I know. Jake Jelenhall is dressed in these power three-piece suits. Every window has Tony Scott slats and blinds. Yes. This is a show that reminds us that we used to get in this country, big, juicy, sexy entertainment that understood it was entertainment. We went so far off the track, right, where everything was either became like genre, like deep comic book, literally genre,

or incredibly self-serious educational, we're getting this right. But there's always show in the business of TV. It's still TV. Like, the wire, I don't think investigations really went like that. The wire had jokes, but we think about it. The way we talk about the wire is if it's just like some... John Dos Passos or something, yeah.

Yeah, or like the Warren report. Like, it's like, oh, this is all truth. Yeah. I love the fact that this knows its entertainment. And then from that gets real emotion. Like it's made by David Kelly and he's writing his ass off about yeah the legal stuff

but also the friendships, the marriages, the family stuff. Yeah. I'm just, I'll stop monologuing. I am so hype on the success of this show both for what it is because I cannot wait to watch the next episode

but also like, yeah, let's make this shit, Hollywood. Do this. You're good at this and the talent is there. It's not the same, but it kind of reminded me of or in the sense of, what if you put like a really,

really, really talented, sharp, knowledgeable writer in charge of this world that's been, had varying results over the last couple of decades. And more importantly, every single person who opened their mouth

was like probably a theater, like a classically trained theater actor. Yeah. And so when you're watching Presumed Innocent and it's like Elizabeth Marvel and Bill Camp and Ruth Naga, who are, all playing parts, I don't know what's going to happen with them over the course of the season

and how meaty they are going to become, but are all playing parts that in any other rendition of the show would be like, honey, why are you doing this? You're not old. You don't have to go back to work. It's like all this stuff that is pretty like standard procedure, just color inside the line stuff. And they are coloring way outside the lines. They are being weird or they are taking a little bit of a beat, and all of a sudden, this character who's supposed to be

super flat is alive. And Ruth Nega is the best example of this. There's a scene, I can't remember exactly what they're talking about, but they're in bed together. And I think he's talking about

why he has to take this case as the prosecutor. And the way she plays it isn't just, like, so many scenes in TV where you can tell, this person's going to say their lines, and then that person's going to say

their lines, and then the scene's going to end. she's listening to him. Yeah. She's like looking at him and thinking and thinking about him and thinking about herself while he's talking. And you can read it and the direction is perfect because it stays on her more than on him. And you're like, she's interesting. I want to know what this woman does.

I want to know what she thinks about this whole situation. Yes. Yes. When you cast Bill Camp, you have my attention. When you cast Bill Camp and then you cast his real life wife Elizabeth Marvel, you have my adoration. They have scenes together where they are literally flossing.

And through David Kelly, again, in his bag... Can we just talk about him for a second? I just want to say in the scene, everything in that scene is alive and that scene of them picking their teeth in their pajamas explains why the next time you see him

is in the courtroom. And so we are going to talk about these episodes in more detail now. I just, if you like TV in the classic sense of TV, watch this show. I guess I was just going to say for David and Kelly,

who we really have not discussed on this podcast in the entirety of our room with the exception of talking about big little lies here and there, you could make the case that he is,

one of the most important television creators in the modern era. For sure. Also that he has had this sort of since basically 2013, 14,

this burst of productivity that is really only rivaled by Taylor Sheridan in terms of the amount of shows that he's got in he already did a man in full this year

on Netflix which we did not talk about I did not watch but is one of the Netflix's biggest hits of the year the adaptation of the Tom Wolf novel and now he's got presumed innocent in the last few years alone

just in terms of miniseries he did the undoing in 2020 which we had a great time with during COVID anatomy of a scandal love and death with Elizabeth Olson on HBO, a man in full on Netflix and now presumed innocent on Apple. Nine perfect strangers. And nine perfect strangers.

Also, network stuff, like Big Sky and I guess Big Sky was the one. But also, I didn't even realize he's involved with a Lincoln lawyer as a producer. Yeah. This guy stays working. Goliath on Amazon, yeah. But I really like the analogy to Andor and Tony Gilroy, because the thing about David Kelly is that he is always good and always prolific. But, you know, writers can only control so much.

And we don't know, I don't know. I haven't even done any research into, like, who was actually, I mean, he's show run. He has the credit of showrunner on the show. I never know how much he's, because we don't know how much credit or blame to assign. Different people do different things. Like sometimes this person writes the scripts and then edits sometimes. Yes. Yeah.

And his work in some of the shows you're saying, like undoing, like undoing was good and structurally sound. In fact, was not structurally sound. No, no, no. I mean, his work. I think the story itself, that's a great point.

The comparison to Andrew is this that works for me is like, this guy knows how to do this. He knows how to make characters talk. He knows how to make characters interesting. He knows how to find richness and nuance in the humanity that surrounds the beat,

beat structure of a legal show or a legal thriller or something built around a case. and in this one he has found he's just found it like the rhythm of this suits the way he likes to write and he's fascinating because he was one of the very best of all time at make personally writing 22 episodes of something a year

LA law yeah LAW picket fences he didn't run out yeah he never ran out of words but this but in the prestige world you know where it's eight episodes through two episodes I'm like this is paced perfectly I can't believe this was a movie because there's so much here, and I'm thrilled, and I can't wait that there's six more hours. This seems appropriate. And if he is the showrunner of this one, that means he was also involved in hiring the directors.

And the director of the first two episodes is a Norwegian woman named Anne Switzky, who I'm not familiar with. She made a movie I didn't see. She worked on Castle Rock, which we didn't really ever talk about too deeply. This show is directed by someone who knows what she's... Oh, you know who comes in for the second block? Greg Catanis, right? who is also one of the great working TV directors from Banshee and Quarry, and he worked on, he worked on Dragon last year.

I think he did, yeah. She is a fan of like Tony Scott movies. You can see it. She is a fan of 90s sexy thrillers, and she is making a show that is interested in everything. And when you have a show that's interested in everything, you kind of need a lead, I think, like Jake Gyllenhaal, who is a leading man who's comfortable with not,

owning every moment of the screen and also equally interested, I think, in everything that's going around. It is a curious, it is a show that is curious, I think, in every little detail around it, the way the rooms look, the way people dress. There's a moment when Sarsgaard, with his weird suits that he's been wearing, he's wearing the same suit in scenes that are separated by a lot of time. And I noticed it, and I was like, I wonder if this is, in editing, they moved this away. so it feels like it's a different day, but it was supposed to be the same day he was wearing the suit.

Or if he's a guy who's like, I'm not rich. I have three suits. Or did they make that choice? I loved wondering that. Yeah. His character is actually my favorite thing about the show so far

is the Peter Sarsgaard performance and his character, Tommy Moulto, who is essentially cast as like Jake Gyllenhaal's lawyer's adversary. There's something that happens at the end of the first episode, I believe,

and then it goes into the second episode where Jillen Hall's character Rusty is being confronted with the mounting pile of evidence that suggests he killed his co-worker Carolyn Palemus, who's played by Renato Rindzi. Rinsva? I feel like we learned this. We talked about this when we were in Norway. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Love her. From worst person in the world. And I would say that the amount of pleasure that Sars Guard is having at disassembling his real-life brother-in-law, by the way, at disassembling. Jake Gyllenhaal borders on Kinky like he's like He's definitely

He has been waiting A long time To destroy this guy One way or the other And it was probably going to happen Because his boss won the election And they were moving into power In this DA's office

But the almost amount of sick pleasure That he seems to be getting From being like Your mistress was pregnant Did you know it? Yeah And I'm going to take your DNA now Is hot

It's fucking like let's go dude Let's fucking like be weird on TV And if there has to be nine iPads in this scene So be it if this is what Apple is paying for I can't believe Apple put this up This seems like This strikes me as there was a package And maybe there was a bidding war

It would have it shocks me in some ways That HBO didn't I don't know who originally had the presumed innocent stuff. The IP. There are a lot of producers here. I mean, JJ Abrams is involved in this somehow. But yeah, Apple do this. Like, this is good. It's aesthetically... It's for adults. It's for adults. It's for adults. Guess what people do on the show. They have sex and men go into rooms after each other and yell and grab each other on the collars. Like, it's what entertainment used to be and what podcasts, frankly, should be and would become if we kept talking about House of the Dragon.

To be like, like these little things, guys, when you're making, I'm just talking to the industry, homies now. Like when you're making TV shows and you have that great honor and distinction and you have a small part of the medical examiner, call James Hirouki layout to be the medical examiner, right? You recognize this guy from Barry. He's a prick in this show for no reason other than it's interesting to have that guy performing this way in those scenes. there's no wasted, there's no fat. Yeah. You know, your observation about Ruth Nega in those scenes is great because that could be a thankless part.

Yeah. And there's a scene in, I believe it's the second episode when Rusty finds, bring back Rusty's National Ampoon and presumed it is just a name that deserves a comeback. When he confesses that the affair wasn't, that she knew about wasn't, isn't fully over. Yeah. Right? And does someone else make that? this point.

She is strangling him with her eyes in that scene. Yes. It is so intense and so lived in. There's a moment also in that episode when Rusty comes home, when Jake Gyllenhaal comes home and his daughter is on her computer, which has now been returned after being possessed by the police. Yeah. Or Apple sent them a bunch of new stuff.

Exactly. Yeah, no problem. Savage family? And he's like, where's mom? And she's like, she's out by the shed smoking, not that. that I'm supposed to know that. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, this was written by someone who has a family.

Not that all moms go smoke by the shed, but like... Right, after that moment is also another cool thing, which is the other side of the David E. Kelly scale of justice, which is the police show up to serve a warrant. And... No, to arrest him. No, I think that point. I think that's the...

Oh, yeah, they serve the warrant at Don. So he gets arrested at night. I was just going to say that when they serve the warrant and he's like, it's Don, like, what are you doing? come on, and they're like, this is literally your playbook. This is your playbook. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about Jillen Hall before we go.

Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about the show forever. I am so hype on this show. Okay, there's two last things I want to talk about them with it. Jillen Hall, which is, would you trust such a swole lawyer? Well, there's a lot of scenes when he's swimming, which seems like great exercise. It's not that kind of good exercise.

No, he definitely has the body of a lawyer who recently starred in the straight to Amazon Prime film Roadhouse. Yes. Would I trust a sole lawyer? That's a great question. Well, we get a little bit of, it's like a McDilT of

of lawyers with him and Bill Camp. Yeah. Who are giving us the two extremes. But isn't it almost impossible to imagine that those guys do the same job? Or that they're best friends? You want to go down that road? Well, I'm almost like, did Rusty kill

that woman because he doesn't have any other friends? It's true, but also, don't you I think maybe we need like, you can help me with this, you're much more movie, like just fused in movies. But like, you know what movies used to be? Movies used to be people like who look like Jake Gyllenhaal and people look like Bill Camp or Brian Dennyhy in the movie walking on a screen and being like, let's have a beer,

you're my best friend. We didn't need to hear about how they bonded when they were 10 years old or whatever and the whole episode backstory. It's just like, yeah, these guys are men who drink beer in the city. They're best friends. I agree. But Jake Gyllenall clearly has a face care regimen and like Bill Camp has floss.

You know, like, that's like we're talking about two guys with different priorities. I completely agree with you. I think it's also worth noting in this context, right? So Jake Gyllenhall is

43 years young, right? Uh-huh. Okay. He's got his roadhouse body. I accept that, but when people are like Andrew Scott was too old for Ripley, I'm asking,

is Jake Jelen Hall too swole for presumed innocent? Well, all I'm saying is that when Harrison Ford made the same movie, he was five years older and looked 300 years older because things are different. Now, people look younger, longer.

Right, but there's no one else in the world who looks like Jake Gyllenhauls and has that body who is also like, I am a practicing lawyer. But that's movies. I know. I'm fine with it. One of my strongest arguments for this show is that it is not trying to be accurate. It is trying to be interesting. Yes. Okay, that's a great point.

And I love that about it. I think, did you pay attention to, I mean, I mentioned his weird heavy suits and his big Brian Colangelo collars, which are such a choice. Next time we talk about the show, I will have the costume designer's name in front of me because I want to celebrate that person. Okay. Did you notice the way, like, in order to like make him seem a little bit less like a roadhouse guy, he has these thick glasses he puts on when he wants to be smart. Which he hangs like in the middle of his shirt. Which he hangs and his navel. Yeah.

A choice. I don't know if it's a good choice or a bad choice. Kaya, what did you think about? You watch the show, right? What did you think about the fashion and the glasses? I definitely clocked the glasses. I think I saw somewhere that Paul knew. used to do the same thing in movies.

Oh, wow. What a poll by me. Wow. I'm impressed that I'm myself right now. I'm also impressed with myself knowing that Kaya had that gem just without knowing. I was like, Kyah, bring this, bring this in the conversation. I feel like maybe I should be hosting. You guys should be hosting No Dragon Sundays.

I love it. I can sleep in on my days. I are ready. Okay. But where are you, you're a Jillenhall guy. Like you like him as an actor. Oh, I'm really, I am like, I think that he's. he is one of the most,

I use this term lightly, but brave stars that we have. Sure. In that he seems to be primarily concerned with pushing himself, physically, emotionally, but also pushing himself in what kind of thing will people accept me in?

Will they accept me as the villain in a Spider-Man movie? Will they accept me as the hero of a Michael Bay movie? Will they accept me as a lawyer? Or in San Diego? Right. And I think he works with interesting filmmakers. I think he makes really weird, interesting choices. Now he is like, I think he's doing a Guy Ritchie action movie. I just think he's fascinating. And pretty funny. Do you think that this show will kind of between Dragon now, Bear in a couple of weeks? Per is like in two weeks, by the way. I don't know how Chris is doing it. But yes. That it will, A, not, and it's not necessarily get lost because who can even quite.

modified that anymore. One of the things about Dragon that's so interesting is it's the only show this year that we've talked about other than True Detective that like starts Sunday nights. It's like Sunday nights at nine, one episode, here you go. And then next week, everything else is three episodes went up. They go up at 10 p.m. the night before or 8 a.m. We haven't even talked boys yet because I'm behind. We'll talk about that on Thursday. But yeah, like I think that I wonder, I want to see when this show hits, uh, it leaves the runway. And because, comes basically the property of like, who do you think did it? Yes, that is a great point.

I think one of the underappreciative, I think we should mention it. And if I know David Kelly shows to the extent that I do that will happen. Yeah, I mean, they're already, because it is a show about a lawyer turned into a detective for his own future, his own culpability, we already have that. And there was really good scenes with, again, another really interesting. Oh, yeah, this guy, Liam. Actor, Mark Harelich, who has been. been in a hundred things and maybe remember from election or you just recognize him in other

good inter-interesting movies and TVs the last few years, every time he goes to see him, I'm interested. I felt that way, by the way, about the... That's like his little Hannibal Lecter. Like, I'm interviewing you. I think you maybe had something to do with it, but maybe you could also give me insight into this. But even the, like, Carolyn's ex, who shows up for one very dimly lit interrogation scene, I'm like, oh, he's interesting. Yep. You're making a good point.

This is such a sleekly designed vehicle. It's almost a wonder it hasn't been remade more times because it's doing the things that storytellers love to do where you can throw a lot of spaghetti strands at the wall to see which one sticks. There's a lot of, there's a rogues gallery, but also we do not trust our star intentionally because as the show continues to remind us,

or he's making the case against himself as part of his defense. They're going to say I was stalking her because of these text messages. It's incredible. All that, like, there is no if I'm going to be arrested. And here's how it's going to go and here's why. And all the reasons are valid. We are on the side of the prosecution, even though we have insight of the prosecution,

even though we are the defense. The Rokes Gallery, the kind of like the broad church modern investigative thing, I wonder about that too. My hope is that... The red herrings, the cliffhangers, the yada, yada. Like, I think that these are the best moments of like these kinds of shows when they start and you're like, they're doing so many cool things with this. And then it kind of becomes what it needs to become. I totally agree.

I even wondered the last second beat of the second episode where there's a text message. Like that felt very modern TV. Like, watch. Keep the next episode starting in eight seconds. It didn't need that. Yes. But the propulsive pace was really well established from the very beginning of the first episode. The way it jumped from one to two instantaneously.

both in the sense that they were dropped at the same time, but two picks up at a really incredibly fraught moment right where the previous one ends. That worked. I feel optimistic about it. We could talk about it again this week because, you know, we'll have the first. We can check in on it and say like, okay, is three sticking with it in terms of how you kind of want it to or is it going somewhere else? I'll say one other thing with no spoilers for the people who know the story or who don't know the story. I don't remember anything about the movie except the end.

So I do carry that knowledge into it. And I am very curious whether David Kelly was like, because people remember this thing, I'm going to zag and give this a different ending. My gut feeling is that he won't because it's a great ending. And also the movie was 34 years ago. Knowing that has in no way, assuming that, let's say, has in no way diminished my entertainment here or my engagement on any level. I'm so glad you like it. I was really excited for you to see this. I think it's fantastic.

I don't know if it's my favorite thing of the year, but I think it's fantastic. It's been a great year. I love Shogun. I love Ripley. I love Mr. Mrs. Smith. But I am so hype about this in a different way because it feels like such a masterful celebration of what this dwindling TV moment still could be. There you go.

Not in the way that like, you know, Fantasmas is like, oh shit, we can still do wild things. Like, I hope that moment still lives. But in some ways, it feels like we squandered a lot of the last 10 years because we didn't make, we didn't, we didn't tend to the excellent middle. Yeah. We made the very, very highest stuff. Like America, we were pretty bifurcated. We made the very highest end stuff. And then we made a lot of flora's lava. Yeah. And then the middle kind of stagnated. And what I've been sensing in the industry for the last year, I don't have special powers. I just mean, everybody. he's been aware of this, but behind the scenes as well,

this very sudden lurch back to like, middlebrow, middlebrow, like, this used to be middlebrow, right? Like, we used to have a middle class in this country of like good stuff. Alan Pakula made this movie. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. City Pollock made the firm. It's not like, yeah. Yes. Yes. Let's celebrate that. Right?

Let's celebrate you. It's like me going to Arizona, them making the show, right? That's right. In a way? You saw one of the ones. wonders of the world. You could say that about yourself. Thanks to Kaya for producing.

On Thursday, we'll be back and we'll be talking about probably the boys. Yeah, I feel, I can't wait talking about the boys. I'm not caught up with the three episodes they dropped, so we'll do that. Maybe we'll touch on presumedness in episode three, but maybe we'll wait, because I don't think we have to do House of the Dragon every Monday.

I don't think we do. And we'll have Top Chef because the finale is on Wednesday night. Yeah, we're going to have a guest. Also, awesome to see you. It's great to you. I know you were like, let's record earlier today because I have a busy day, but I think it's because you missed it. It could be it. Talk to you guys soon.