The Watch - ‘The Idol’ Episode 4 and ‘The Bear’ Episodes 4-6

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the fourth episode of ‘The Idol,’ and how the show continues to be visually interesting but lacks any plot consistency (7:45). Then, they talk about the fourth through sixth episodes of ‘The Bear’ (32:21), and whether the many cameos in the Episode 6 distracted from the show’s emotional core (55:58). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. He's not like this because he's in Van Halen. He's in Van Halen because he's like this. It's Andy Greenwald! It's great. It's great to see you.

It's great to see you, man. You have a lot to talk about. You know, this is an atypical recording experience for us because you arrived today with me and Kaya were here, chomping at the bit. That's not atypical for the record. Me arriving after the two of you is quite typical. And then you were like, some news. Daddy needs to...

Some personal news. He needs to watch the rest of episode six of the bear. So I watch your face as you watched that episode. Yeah, my nerves are great. My nerves are calm. It's only six months to Christmas. I've never been happier to be an only child. Uh-huh.

You know, not usually something I say. But it's really... These last few moments has really helped me read... It's tough because I'm a childless only child, so I have to contemplate some true Charles Foster Kane shit at the end of my life. sitting quietly at a table with a nice meal. That's not how it feels.

That sounds great, yeah. And, yeah, but seeing like the family get together in the bear episode six, we're going to be talking about that. We're also going to talk about the idol. We never stop. No. And for the record, I feel bad, like, I do the work, you know, but my excuse is I went to a professional baseball game yesterday.

Yeah, how did that go? Well, boy, that pitch clock. That really... So, I mean, honestly, the first time I went to a baseball game with the pitch clock, I was like, did I get my... money's worth. I would say probably not. I did get some free baseball because it was an extra innings affair between the hometown Dodgers whom I have no feelings about

and the visiting Houston Astros, whom I loathe. As did the other members of the right field seats where I was sitting, who introduced my... Did you sit in the bleachers? No, but like way down on the right field line, which I wouldn't recommend. No. A lot of sun down there. A, a lot of sun. B, you are just looking at Jason Hayward's stand. You cannot see the batters box. You cannot see the pitchers. And I'd spent this whole time prepping the girls.

And my older daughter was like vaguely expressing some interest in maybe learning the rules of this thing we were making her do. And then I was like, now look at this grass. And so she was like, it's not real grass. And I was like, ah, ha, ha. When I was a youth, there was a fake grass that gave everyone on the Phillies brain cancer. Next subject. The point being, she learned a lot of words. Don't you dare desecrate veteran stadium?

It's true. reading the reporting? What reporting? The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that the AstroTurf on at the vet at the vet is why like 11 members of the Phillies have had glioblastomas. Okay. Including Darren Dalton and John Vukovic. This is real. Is this from like the epic times? Like no. No. This is real and horrifying. I didn't see this. But separate and apart from that, the Astros and when the Astros are winning really brings out like a brotherhood of men like just like a like a real civic spirit. Yeah.

And Kyle Tucker's last name does rhyme with some cool stuff. Some other words. So I say we spent a little time in the baseline club, which had some free soft serve. So that was cool. But the other thing about baseball, Chris, and this is what people tune in for. I know Kaya is riveted is in addition to all these other cockamamie, like pitch clock rules, whatever, bigger bases. Do you know that they start extra innings with a free runner?

Yeah. So there's just a dude on second, hanging out on second? They got to wrap it up, man. And in this baseline club where we were taking solace from the sun, there was a little boy who appeared to have no parents. He was wearing a Mukubets shirt. He was young, and he was watching the game. But he had no one talking to him, so he just kept talking to us.

And I was like, oh, see, I had read that there's this free base runner about the failed coup. Did you guys know that the implosion they experienced on the sub happened faster than human minds can process? He was like, I was like, oh, so there's a free runner on second. And he was like, no, the commercials, they take too long. Number 11 got a hit. And I was like, son, that's just simply not true. Rob Manfred is on the case. Anyway, I don't know what we're talking about anymore.

Why did you make this boy sound like little Zelensky? He kind of was. Like, he had a lisp, not like Zelensky, but it had a vague, you know. It was sweet. He wanted to talk to me about, and then like the inning ended and the Astros were winning. And he was like, that's game over. And I was like, it's not. It's not.

They let the home team have another. So this kid out of Mookiee Betts jersey didn't understand what innings were. No, but again, in his defense, they changed the problem with the American education system. With like the focus on. We value like the accoutrement. Like it's all about acquiring grails, you know, getting your jersey, but you don't know what the actual bread and butter rules of the game. I've heard you've had a lot of opinions about grails recently. I have.

That is something you've really been thinking about. Last baseball-related question. Like, Chris, how do you feel about, look, we're American men of a certain age? We like to go to the old ball yard, maybe have a drink, a beer, cold beer. In my mind, the beer you get is like the dude of the backpack. It just like fills you up like a bud light or whatever. No, not like nitrous backpack. That's in the parking lot.

I mean, like the beer, like just like draft beer. Uh-huh. But the move towards like the gas can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The medello, the size of your arm. Which is really exciting for the first two and a half minutes, and then it's just tepid and big. I know.

Right? Yeah, I think the idea is that you're supposed to crush that. The can when you're done on your forehead? No, I think you're supposed to move through it a little faster than we maybe do in this day and age. Do you think I carry myself in the world as someone who crushes... 22 ounces of Madeleau just like pure out. In direct sunlight? Like, everyone hydrated on this row?

Thanks, fellas. That would explain why you thought that kid had no parents. Yeah. You were just walking up to random boys. Do you have sunscreen on, son? And I was like, yes, the Astros are known cheaters, but are you known hydrators? I'm fun, is the end of this story. I'm fun.

So I didn't finish watching the bear. Another eastbound down season where you're like the baseball expletor, you know? People love it. There is, though, I will say that I was trying to explain extra innings to my children, and then I stopped speaking, and I heard vague cussuration voices, basically of like other fathers trying to explain extra innings to their children, it doesn't go great. I don't really have an entertaining story from the weekend.

It's just that if you try to explain baseball to someone who truly doesn't care. I've done it before to English people. It's worse than if you're trying to explain a dream you had. But for English people, you could just be like it's like cricket, but faster. There was the moment when I lost them when I was like, because I understand three strikes and you're out. And I was like, if it's not a strike, it's called a ball. And they're like, what are they throwing before then?

Right. You're done. You're getting who's on first territory. So you watch the Dodgers. Did the Dodgers win? I didn't check the score. You got home. Any fireworks?

No. That was the reason why we were staying that long, but no, the fireworks only on certain nights. And then you make yourself a cup of chamomile tea. You want to tell me. And you know what? I bet Tedros is a Padres fan, just to Zag. A Padres? Oh, a million percent.

He's like, he's into Machado, you know? But not. But he would. Where's the camo jersey? You know what I mean? The Camo Machado jersey? That's a part the way up we get more of in season two is the weekend's character in the idol being like a super big support the troops.

I love it because the thing is there's so much more road for this character. Yeah. You know, there's a lot. I thought you were going to do a Zag. I was hoping you wouldn't do, which is like, so you make yourself some tea, tell the children to join you on the couch. And like Ashley Schaefer, BMW, you let the children watch. I don't think that even you, adventurous and would allow your children to set foot in the world of the idol.

And that's good. That's good. Yeah, it's good. It's good. But I did. Then, yeah, I fired up TV. And because I am your friend, I watch the idol first. You can do whatever you want, ma'am.

I want you to feel like this is like you have equity in this podcast, you know, and we have equity in our relationship. I've spoken to Danieleck and I do not. I do not. Idle episode four. We got two left after this. What a journey it's been. A turn towards in some ways like straight up film noir in this one.

You know? Really? That's generous. Please continue. Well, it's just a genre. You know what I mean? But I think that the machinations of both the Tedro's character

and also his effect on Jocelyn. I'm loving this. No, you do it then. No, explain. I'm not, look. You're like, like the third man, this was visual entertainment. It filmed in the camera. Yeah, no, it was.

In the sense that actors were performing scenes. Much like Casablanco, two people kissed in this show. Yep. And very similar to singing in the rain, there was music. Yes. So really. And much like the Green Mile, someone was shocked. Right?

Yeah. I could do this. This is fun. What was your favorite part about this episode? When the credits came on at the end. Okay. No, okay. What's my favorite part?

I'm challenging you to find some... Give me your redemptive qualities here. Wow. In the show, not in yourself. Oh, I think I'm a good listener. I've got equity in one mildly successful podcast. Just learned about it. Comprehensive understanding of the game of baseball.

Especially the new rules. Chris? No, it's funny. Let me begin. OPS. I did the exact same thing that you did when I went, saw the Diamondbacks play the Dodgers early in the year. I came out and I was just like, guys, I got to talk about these rules for like three days and then nobody cared.

I definitely said the word suicide squeeze out loud. We're not allowed to say that anymore. Oh, that didn't occur to me. Do we not say that anymore? Oh, right. No. I just meant I was wrong. Do they call it a suicide squeeze anymore?

Do you feel like Rob Manfred is woke? Is this what is this? Rob Manfred has the woke mind virus? Is this where we're going to avoid talking about last night's episode of the I-R-O-Ber? You're the one who's, you're on the clock. I asked you to give me your favorite part of last night's episode, aside from the credits rolling. Okay.

Did you like Divine Randolph? Because I thought she was quite awesome in this episode. Okay, yeah. She was, I mean, I thought the destiny plot would be like, this is what made me almost like how the film more thought is like, she is almost like a private detective investigating this. And I was like, oh, this would have been kind of a cool wrinkle. They've obviously, like, they've had Haim and her check in on this.

know what's happening. But almost, it would have been an interesting, I think, because of the bear. I'm thinking a lot about POV. And I'm thinking a lot about, like, how different shows could be shaken up in the way that the bear so casually changes the entire chessboard episode to episode. And she just brought a completely different energy. And I thought was the audience avatar in a lot of ways. Like, she's seasoned, she's been in the business. She understands what she's talking about. But at the same time, she's like, what the fuck is happening here? But also, what the fuck is she doing and what the fuck is she talking about or thinking there are two tracks to talk about this show okay this was the episode where i was like i think this is pretty reprehensible like this is

the episode that yeah yeah okay i did because i was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt no you weren't i was for three weeks i was when you were watching it doesn't mean you're giving no i was like i was like there may be some i i was trying to not assume ill intent i don't think there's ill intent, but I was like, they are, if they, I could try to see like you were just doing, the shape of the influences or the type of story that may be interested them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And are they steering towards that, in which case, some of the things that rubbed me the wrong way or I didn't think were working, maybe could be excused narratively or thematically or whatever. This is the one to me where the wheels fell off. Is that because, um, you just hate seeing Mike Dean's talents wasted in this

way? I feel like Mike Dean was probably showing, sharing his truth. Does Mike Dean know he was on a show? So Mike Dean, hero of Tedros, friend of Tedros, truly, you know, a legend in that, like, coming from the Houston scene, plays with everybody, right? Kanye Travis Scott,

a little singer-songwriter known as The Weekend. Yeah. I was like, oh, so he's playing a character of a guy who just bongs it up all the time. And then I was like, let me Google Mike Dean. And marijuana? No, just Google Mike Dean and be like, is there something about his character?

Is he a prankster? Yeah. You know? And then it's like, Mike Dean has released four solo studio albums, 420 on April 20th, 2020, 422 on April 22nd, 2021, Smoke State, 4222-2-2 on April 22-22, and 423 on April 29, 2020-23. So, to answer your question, I think he thought he was at a weekend recording session at the weekend's house where he's been before. Yes. And his look of, oh, you know what I enjoyed?

I enjoyed his look of bemusement when he was tickling the ivories and weekend was karateing Rob? Yes, I enjoyed that. So thank you for steering me to that answer. Okay. You were saying how this show is reprehensible. I was.

Yeah. But that's not where I want to begin because I don't think that's as interesting and I don't want to be a ballstopper in your offense. That's okay because today I know that that was a concern of yours, that your negativity might be like slowing things down.

So what we need to talk about is what superhero you think think Jocelyn's ex-boyfriend was playing. Oh. Well, first of all, he's a great actor. Just across the board, just very expressive, and definitely should not have had his mask on for as much of the film as he did. Because that guy was just giving just shades, you know what I mean? I was like, what is his motivation?

Tell me more about his backstory. Is he, would he be invited to the Burzato Christmas dinner? Sure. And like, could he hang? A lot of latex, as we're told. so, and I don't think he can do the Weiden banter, so I don't think he's MCU. Okay.

And also, the idol is a Warner show. So you think he's D.C.? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think he gets killed in the first scene of Peacemaker Season 2 or something? I mean, that would be a great out for me from this, because I don't know who lives and dies in Peacemaker.

The problem with the show for me, Chris, at this moment, is because it's going to run for a long time, clear. it's completely fucking incoherent. It's completely incoherent. And it's... So give me an example of what you're talking about. Is it under stuff? And it's wasting everyone's time, frankly,

with the resources that it has to be doing this. And I think that sucks. Is Tedros a compelling and charismatic cult leader who draws people to him? Potentially, because that's what the show is built around this idea. He has apparently collected a... menagerie of broken toys, all of whom are geniuses,

per destiny, right? That crocodile song was good. Okay, we'll circle back to that. Also, he is a fucking clown. And in interviews, definitely not face-saving interviews, Abel's going around and being like, oh, he's supposed to be a dork.

This is supposed to be ridiculous. Okay, so he's ridiculous too. So then Jocelyn is ridiculous for falling for him. I'm not sure Jocelyn has a lot of relatable real-world experiences. So I don't know that she has the best like radar for it.

As a perpetually nude cipher, I agree with you because the show has absolutely no interest in anything about her interiority unless she's live streaming. Has there been a scene through four episodes of this show where she's been alone expressing anything

about what's existing inside of her? When she wakes up, in between when Leah gives her her coffee and opens the curtains. And then she's just like, see you. So again, okay, so in this space, I feel like if we were debating Sam Levinson, like in the, like, like British Parliament, I think he might say exactly. This is a broken person who has never been left alone to become a person and is so dependent on others doing things for her that she ends up in this debauched and debased and manipulated state. Okay.

So it's an emotional drama about someone's abuse. But no, no, it's a satire, we're told. Okay, so it's a satire. So what's it satirizing? Is it satirizing? Well, I mean, you're getting into like a semantic debate about how it's being presented and how it's being... I just want to know what it is.

Right. Is this a erotic thriller noir? Is it a satire of superficiality of celebrity and stardom in the pop music business? It can't be both? It could be both, but I think that it's nothing because it has no point of view. If its point of view is, look at these shitty people. Well, you could just say that in a demwa post.

You don't actually need to spend $200 million to make a TV show about it. What I'm trying to explain is the reason I'm rejecting the show at this moment is not because I'm out on the weekend's performance. I'm because I've reached this point where I believe the show actually has no point of view and is about nothing. So the reason I brought up Divine Randolph the first place was that she did an interview with Vulture ran this morning. That was about the production of it. She refuted some of the reporting in the Rolling Stone, or at least from her experience. It was like a really safe set or whatever. But she did talk about how it was about 50% scripted.

Yes, that is clear. And I do think that this was an episode where some of the precision that could have come with scripting would have been a little bit helpful. Yeah, this is what happens if we stay on strike. There are things that there are things that just didn't feel like they, were in the same show or episode. Clearly true. And there were things that I was like, oh, like during that whole Zander getting shot-collar thing, I was very...

Say that again, please. So Zander, who is Jocelyn's creative director. Troy Sivan, who actually I think is one of the better actors on the show. And he is caught singing in the shower by Tedros. And Tedros is like, why don't you sing? And he's like, oh, I tore my vocal cords. And then it turns out that he and Jocelyn, it sounds like they may be We were like on a Nickelodeon show together.

Disney show. And Jocelyn's mother outed him. And it kind of basically ended his career prematurely. But then there is this like murky history between him and Jocelyn because even though this is the case, he's also been living with Jocelyn and her mother for a long time and witnessed all this abuse that Jocelyn is talking about. But was also being kept under the thumb of this family

and wasn't allowed to sing and had to sign a contract. or so he says. And then on the flip side of it, Jocelyn's like, obviously starting to blame him primarily for no one stepping up and saying like, you need to get out from under this situation

with your mom, she's abusing you, et cetera. And just because we all make money off of you doesn't mean that that's okay. And then there's just like this meltdown and I was like, this is actually pretty interesting.

Like these two, one failed one, still shining child stars who went through this like incredibly traumatic event, but also like the fog of memory. that happens about it. There are little strands

that I think probably could have benefited from not being like... And then what's more important is that the weekend is going to physically break this guy down and turn him into another one of his troll bots who's then going to get Rob in trouble by...

You are right. When you have this much talent and this many resources, you can't help but turn up potentially good things. You'd stumble into them. And I completely agree with you that from, like, if you took it all the way back to jump, Sam Levinson, with what interests him and what motivates him and his style, making a show about the afterlifes of teen pop stars feels almost too natural. That is a show. And it is a show that

is of interest to people and there's a world that can be, can touch reality a little bit before it veers off into basic instinct land. But that isn't this show because this is the Weekends Vanity Project. Fundamentally, this is the Weekends Vanity Project and it derails everything. And I don't know how much of any of these other things were in Amy Simits' version.

It's easy to hold that up as being quote unquote better. We don't know. It could have been a disaster in its own right. But that did feel like it was a version that might be willing to focus or prioritize stories other than Tedros being compelling.

scary or a dink. Because that's what the camera is most interested in in the show. That's what the edit is. And I think you're 100% right. This episode had a lot of scenes of Tedros and Jocelyn fighting that clearly weren't part. They were just acting exercises or whatever. Like how many days this went on with 19 is unclear. Right. There's moments like Leah's behavior is totally inconsistent and bizarreo where she is chafing and ready to go and then she's in bed with Isaac. and then she's getting super soaked with tequila. Yeah. You know,

all of these are apparently just moments apart. Yeah. And then there's like the whole like, Diane is with Tedros but is now taken over Jocelyn's mainstream career, but is now coming back to kind of talk to Jocelyn, but also seems to be surprised that she has arrived at Jocelyn's house to find a party going on and was in love with Tedros. And now Tedros was with Jocelyn.

Like there's just like a lot of like stuff that's sort of subterranean. in the show that I just, I am actually interested in. You know, I think it could, in a weird way, this, this show could use a little bit more TV in it. There are some things that I think that it just does, that, that Levinson just does very well. Like, for instance, like, even the cutting back and forth, somewhat playing with the timeline of, like, this conversation is happening with, like, Leah having her conversations with Tedros, but then, like, cutting ahead in time and then cutting away to where it, Vine Randolph is talking to Haim and like all that stuff is kind of like just while you're like

it's well done. It just kind of, I find most of the episodes actually hit the same point in the second half where it becomes like you're saying a little bit more of like are we just doing acting exercises? Are we just doing improv games here? And it gets a little bit more complicated. And I think, or not complicated, it gets a little bit less, there's less to hang on to there. And, you know, This was not my favorite of these episodes. I think that I don't really know where it goes from here or what it does next, but I still was like curious about it. I think that your point is a good one in that, like, virtuoso,

being a virtuoso at anything is super cool. But it just, if it ends up with a bunch of people just soloing, like, congratulations, you're Steve Vi. Right. Like, with this raw footage of interesting people doing crazy things like having a Hollywood party, and ingesting cocaine. First of all, whoa. This shit is pushing boundaries.

You can cut it up with needle drops and weekend covering John Lennon songs. You can do all of this and make it look interesting and compelling and you can do it with some artistry. I'm not saying that it's not. I think there is a cynicism somewhere in here, but I'm not sure if it's in the filmmaking

or if it's in the HBO being like, sure, we'll just rubber stamp this and put this out on Sunday night. There are individual performances that are good. And I think that I don't, I certainly wasn't, I wasn't there. I go to, you know, I go to baseball games and have a cup of tea. But all accounts that I've heard on the record and off the record from people involved in the show is that they were just like, let's just see what we can make here. And let's scramble.

Yeah, we don't have to leave because it's weekend's house. Yeah, and the people on the show did not know what show they were on. They did not gav. Even like the professional actors who have won Emmy Award, like people, like people have done things. Yeah. You know, or like, I don't know if Hank Azaria got the sides for what was. happening in the studio that day, for example. Right.

Good things have come from that type of arrangement, but that is the feeling here. And it just, it does rankle me that at the end of this, it does feel like two rich, talented men having carte blanche to be like, let's see what we get. Let's just see what we can get here. I don't think that being too rich talented men in Hollywood makes them special. I don't think it makes them special. But I think then having to sit here and be like, that's really interesting what they came up with.

Nobody made you do this. All of this was enabled. and all of this was a choice, you know? And we get into this episode, the Lily Rose Depp Jocelyn of it all. I mean, it's just like, what is even going on here? You know, she bought in, and she's given it her all. Yeah.

And it's for this. I think it's a bummer. She's not in on the Rob part, right? The Rob, like entrapping Rob with the pictures of that woman, right? Right. Well, I mean, her motivations are crystal clear throughout. Right. So I feel confident.

trying to figure out whether she's like breaking bad at all. No, because I don't know if you heard this John Lennon song that The Weekend is singing is jealous guy. So I'm putting... He's jealous, right? I'm putting one in one together. She was also like keep shocking that dude. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. No, I know. That was heavy when she was just like, you fucking suck. Let's torture you. Are you being serious? No. Okay. But all the way back to the destiny thing, which is really good performer that I like to watch,

doing something relatively interesting on the show snooping around. Maybe that was... You can almost imagine San Levinson being like you are the detective now in this house of hers. That is a cool framing. That's not what this episode was. And her having to basically like

to humor Tedros while trying to figure out what it is that's like going on here. But also is she trying to figure it out because I think this show's central message is that everyone's shitty and trying to profit. And when she's just like... So I watched the scene with her and Cassie Crocodile Girl.

Is that her name? Cassie? Chloe. Yeah. Sorry, just getting compelling characters that just... Well, for a second, because Cassie is... There's a Cassie in Euphoria. Oh, okay. When she's just, like, playing this song and is, like, not a well person.

And then later, Destiny is like, she's incredible. She sings poetry from her heart. And I'm like, what is... Walk me through this. Because you're right. She shows up being like, this is some real fucking shit. This guy's a criminal. And then by the end of it, she both hates him

but she's like, man, this guy really gets good music out of people. And by the way, all this music sucks. And maybe they'll come out and be like, newsflash, dorks, the music was supposed to suck. I don't know. Do you feel like they're making hits here? I don't know. I mean, I don't listen to pop music anymore,

so I don't really know what is like banging on the radio right now. The freak song's all right. Well, that's fucking Diane's song now. Yes. Well, class center belongs to Diane. I am a Black Pink fan. Are you? Yes, I am.

Wow. Okay. Black Pink gets airtime in the family car, driving to school. Like, Black Pink's cool. And when I watch Jenny act, I think Black Pink is a good musical group. Uh-huh. That's my takeaway. All right.

Let's put a cork in it there. That's hard for me. I know. Do you want to keep going? Shots. This is a party. Do a shot with me. I would.

I'm done. Let's pivot to the bear. Okay. So we're going to do four, five, and six. That was like your March to Moscow just now. Was it? Yeah, you made it like a little bit. Then you heard me, you were like, I'm good.

No, what I don't want to do is I want you to have, I want you to be in a good place to talk about the bear. I think I think I should be riled up. You are wild up. Set the buzzer. Apparently, rich guys aren't allowed to make TV shows anymore. That's the takeaway here. No, only rich guys make TV shows. Only rich guys are soon to be rich guys

I'm just saying You're taking your sweater off Like are you getting hot You getting heated in here It's fucking summertime I'm recording live From Dodger Stadium People think we're in person

No No I'm just doing batting practice There's a couple My comment about that Are we still talking about the idol I like doing this But just to clarify

Okay what do you care I'm just saying those two dudes You're like this is reprehensible And you're like wait Let me not be taken out of context Yeah Those two dudes what Because here's the thing.

I worry. Chris, I worry. You know, we talk into microphones. We can't control the dissemination of information. You know, we're not Vladimir Putin. We can't do it. That guy has an iron grip on the way information flows out. Absolute lockdown.

Remarkable. Incredible comms. Last week. Last week. Well, Destiny and Chaym are his managers. They're like, let's see where this goes. You know, this fucking guy, Putin, is incredible. Incredible.

It's like they cut away from Putin and Mike Dean is in the background. Yeah. Excealing smoke. Last week, we were like, let me be clear with you, America. Secret invasion is bad. Yeah. And here's why it's bad. And then I see a comment online being like,

those fuckers would love the show if it didn't have scrolls in it. They're lying. I agree. No, it's a bad show. Oh. It's a bad show because of. But I would be way more into it if there weren't aliens in it. Yeah, but what if it was the same show?

But I didn't see this comment. Was it thoughtful? You need a comment on the internet? Yeah. It was very nuanced and thoughtful. Was it on Facebook? I'm just saying I only get information from Facebook. I don't know where you get yours.

So, anyway. The For You tab on Twitter. One of my favorite things about Facebook, by the way, as you know, is like it just feeds you insane things that it thinks you will like. And most of them now are related to... But Hedy, you obviously click on that stuff because you screenshot it and send it to me. So they clearly are like, this is worth. I don't click. How dare you? I don't click. Okay.

I just, most of it's about Legend of Zelda now. They can tell when you're hovering. Well, most of it's about Legend of Zelda when I'm hovering. Okay. Because that is really what's dominating my household. But then now, yesterday it was just like John Claude Van Damme fan club. And it was like a picture of him and his children. And I did click on it because I was like, what it had like 700 comments.

And the comments were all beautiful family. You are going to get so many JCPVD promoted posts now. It's so funny Anyway, I just want to be clear That was a bad that show And it wasn't just because of scrolls And I want to be clear I'm not anti-rich men making television shows

It's okay Okay There are many many rich men making nice TV shows I'm saying they have carte blanche Some of them are your close friends Some of them have been on this podcast Yeah I'm just saying that like

This is what they're doing with it and it just feels like, it just feels like ego and taking up space. And it's a bummer because I don't see what's being done with this. I greatly prefer this to secret invasion in terms of use of time and money. Hmm. Yeah. Wow.

I'm on the fence. Are you? Yeah. Okay. That was a provocative comment. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day,

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Terms apply. I want to talk about the bear because I want to talk about good television. I want to talk about great television. Okay. That's why we did the Idol first. Do you want to talk about the episode that was made in a lab for you,

which was episode four, Honeydew, or do you want to talk about the episode that everybody is talking about, which is episode six, fishes? Well, I got to be me. I only want to talk about five.

Of course. I find it hard to talk about, I don't think you can talk about one without the other. Let's speak in generalities before we get into specifics then. Because broadly, one of the things that I love about the show and its delivery of information and story and narrative and character is the way everything

that defines the people we've already fallen in love with is connected to other pieces of them. And so the fussiness, the prissiness, the tweeziness of Copenhagen cuisine as presented in the show and the life that Karmie has chosen where you can use, you can just use blue tape in your own strength of will to make something that takes seven seconds, five seconds. all of that is because what eating is for him emotionally is episode six. One is connected to the other, and it is, and they are both extremes, you know, and so it was, I loved the juxtaposition of these episodes, especially doing the way we're doing it, which is as a, as a coarsed out meal.

Well, I mean, we didn't actually know this going into it, but so far we've chosen wisely, as it, with the breaks, yeah. Ending at three, ending at six. and I think we'll do the rest of the season for Thursday. But it is actually told in these very discrete chapters in some ways. So let's talk about four. Let's talk about Marcus walking the same cobblestone streets that I've walked. Heartbaggery.

Been there. Been there. The cardamum bun? Sure. So is that where Will Poulter is working? I think so. I couldn't really tell. Okay.

He goes to heart Marcus brings home a bunch of pastries including the famous cardamom bun from heart Not a big cardam guy Sadam voce Neither Cool that it has its own bun But I just in Sweden I was just like

I know that Fika is a thing And I enjoy the actual act of it But cardam is not my jam What about cardamam jam? Is that a thing? I actually don't have the answer as to whether that where he is, because it does seem like he's working at a, it's a bakery.

They're serving plated desserts, so I don't know what it is. I think he's working in desserts in a very nice restaurant. I think so too. Yeah. I think so too. And then we see him do, you know, one of the amazing things about that city, it is that beautiful, it is that incredible, but it also is that open and friendly, at least in what I've observed and what I've heard from friends who are chefs in terms of walking into places

and the community where like if you could go to NOMA, you could probably be seated in some ways if you have connections or if you have a chef friend. Yeah, it's like the Magic Castle. But more than that, it's exactly like the Magic Castle. But even if you don't go to eat there, you can go to the gardens and see what they're doing. So I could go to Noma. If you were a cook. Oh, so it's just regular homies can't go to Noma and just be like, I'd like to observe.

I mean, I could send a DM. No, I want to know. I could DM. It's not just rich guys who get to make television, okay? I get to go to Noma. But only rich guys get to go to Noma. Sorry, gatekeeping. Sorry, pal.

Is Noma still open? Yeah. I thought he was wrapping up. No, they're back from Kyoto's summer menu, vegetarian menu, just starting this week. Wait, I thought the whole thing was he was closing Noma. I thought he was like, I've said what I wanted to say with this place. I think this iteration of Noma is ending in 25 with the seasonal menus, but... 2025? Yeah. Okay. They're that far out?

Let me tell you something about my guy, Renee. No quitting him. No quitting him. He's got that dog in him. He's got that dog in him. If you see the x-ray of Renee Reds Feree, you see dog in his heart. Kind of, yes. Kind of, yes. So, no, I think that was a little overheating. Oh, I thought it was, like, the whole thing was, like, I've, like, my statement is complete. We're closing Noma, and I'm going to, like, rethink how I want to, like, approach food.

I think he's rethinking how he wants to approach restaurant dining. Yeah. But I think... Is he going to move more into, like, kind of, like, rustic comfort food? Fast casual. Yeah, just, like, it's just, like, big plates you can share. Bowls, everything in a bowl. Tell you a little bit about what we're doing here.

No, but, I mean, it's also so much bigger than just that place now. in terms of like the garden and the fermentation, like the projects. For sure. But that it is this kind of magical community. And I loved that Marcus gets to have this experience. And I especially love the echo of it when in six, Carmi is like, it's a magical place. And I lived on a boat and I fed a ghost cat.

Yeah, invisible cat. Let's not put cocoa in the ground just yet. No, I'd like to break some news here. So you think cocoa is left this plane? No, sometimes, I don't know if you ever do this, but as a podcaster, I say something, and then I can't back down. I think I'm well aware that that's...

I think that it's finally time to be honest. Okay. I show some humility. I thought... So I think that the... Do you want me to tell you all the places I've been? Let's save that for like a little bit of an appendix at the end. Let's not do that.

We could also do top 50 replacement songs. We could do a bunch of different things. Okay. Top five holiday dinners with the family. Yeah. Top five solo Lindsey Buckingham tracks. Yeah. Because not just Holiday Road, but I want you crops up in six.

I think that the way that they laid out this season and the way that they have figured out a way to sustain a show that in its initial conception and its initial presentation was like burning so bright you wondered how long it could sustain itself. And now they have figured out this way, not with like gimmicks, but with actual like, what if we did this with this person? or what if we went back to this point in time or what if this person went on this adventure and the growth for the show between season one and two is remarkable in that way. You know what I mean?

Like the way that they were like, okay, we'll probably do a third season. People really like this show. Oh, yeah. How do we make this interesting for ourselves, interesting for the people playing these parts, interesting for the viewers, but not getting away from what this show is about?

And I was just blown away. I was blown away by these three episodes in that sense, you know, and which isn't to say take away anything from the individual episodes because in a lot of ways, like, yeah, Marcus has like basically the best possible experience in Copenhagen, but I thought it was a beautiful depiction of like the kind of clarity and self-discovery that sometimes happens with the dislocation of traveling someplace for a long time, you know, and being away and kind of seeing yourself in a different light and seeing what you do in a different light.

And a beautiful performance by Lionel Boyce, who's just great and has the exact right demeanor in a way. It's a strange word to use, I guess, but you feel his excitement and a little bit of insecurity, not necessarily as a performer, but maybe as a cook, like in these spaces and how does he take up space in these spaces?

And Will Polter was really good, too, because he has to move in a way that is plausible. And I'd be curious what he did to prepare for that himself, but he has to have authority. He's got to be obviously better at it than Marcus in the beginning of it. Yeah, he has to be believable. So it's

lovely, it's a lovely episode. But I think to the other point you're making, all of the best shows aren't really about what they pretend to be about. Succession, the business part was interesting and compelling. It made for great drama, but it was about the emotional state of the family. I love

industry because of the amazing writing and performances, but mostly because the conceit of money and that level of finance... It's abstract almost. It puts the people at the highest possible stakes of themselves. So that what we see is just so intense and interesting. Yeah, because betrayal gets magnified in a situation like that.

And what's so incredible about the bear is that people... I mean, food is abstract. I mean, it's everything, and it's also absolutely nothing. And that's why you talk about like, well, you don't really remember what you ate at that restaurant that was the greatest meal of your life. You remember how you were treated and who you were with and the conversation, et cetera, et cetera. This show has found a way to make food both to make central unifying principle, but immediately understood that it's never going to be just about what's on the plate. Yeah, yeah. And all of the disparate stories that fed into what is served to someone, presumably in the final episode of this.

this season. It's so much more than just chopping and searing. Yeah, I mean, I also think that there's something about this season and about this, this group of episodes specifically, but the end season and its entirety, that's about what you owe your past and, like, what you owe your sort of roots and your origin story and, like, you know, your traumas, but also just like, you're a guy from Chicago who makes desserts. Like, could you be a guy who lives in Copenhagen who makes desserts? Yeah. Well, how does that change how you look at doing what you do? And there's so much stuff in this season that's about the idea of failure versus the idea of success and what constitutes what. I thought that the Lucas stuff where he's talking about like, I thought I was the best. And then I cooked next to somebody

who made me realize not only was I not, I was never going to be. And I got so much better just by chasing that person. And, you know, in a lot of ways, I think I can't help but watch the show and think about the making of the show or thinking about the making of anything, you know, and how hard it is to do something, especially something so forward-facing like cooking or making art where you're like, the whole point of this is that it's supposed to be consumed at a certain point. Yeah. And like what goes into that and what goes in what it does to the people who are doing it?

And I think it just is the most thought-provoking look at something like that while also maintaining this very, very, very strong bone structure of a TV show that I really like about people that I care about. And food is also so interesting and in some ways unique in that it is a passport to a very odd and exclusive world. Because the path that Tina and Sydney and Marcus and Carmen are taking to get to these places, these cities, these venues, these ingredients, these opportunities is in no way the same path that the people who are going to pay $200 for a tasting menu at the bear or wherever else are taking. And so the extremity of the disconnect, first of all, from the Brasado family dinner to when he's serving the United Nations in New York, presumably a few

months later, right? Or not that Marcus has a bad life in Chicago, but what dominates his thinking in taking care of his mother and getting on the L and all those things versus living on a and just thinking about the way something tastes operates. It's very different. And the kind of, you know, it's work. It's not always art. And that collision, too, is so interesting and so fascinating to observe. And so keenly observed by the show is really lovely.

I also think that just in terms of structure, the show really excels. It's, you know, until episode six, it's relatively standard, short episodes. and the little hint, you know, Sydney on the FaceTime, you know, just to remind you about what's going on. It's just very artfully done. So it doesn't feel like we're just taking this little trip because we could. It feels connected. I also think it's worth mentioning that Rami Yusuf directed the fourth episode and Christopher Storer worked on Rami. And I thought that the visual sensibility was different, but still of a piece of the bear.

You know, so you get to see the way another. person would view this world. Obviously, it helps to not be in Chicago and not be in the restaurant, not be in the kind of chaotic world of that. But it kind of suggests what the world outside of the bear looks like. It's something that I think that the idol could benefit from, for instance, is a couple of more trips away from the house. You know, like, I think the idol is suffering by the fact that it's like, well, we could just shoot at Abel's house so we could just shoot all day long. And like... Also, we burned our budget for locations when we shot the show the first time and then throw it out. Sure. Sure. But like, that is a

show that it would be like my favorite part of the idol was when she went shopping, you know? And my favorite parts of the bear are the fact that even though it's about this restaurant and making this place, I don't know if you could do 10 episodes nonstop with people screaming at each other and drills going off. I don't know if it would be a fun thing to watch. Now, it's not like the diversions that they take are always like calming, as we will talk about with six, but five is a really good example of that. It's like, can Carmen? go to a fucking party or what? Because he never has. Yeah. Apparently. The thing, I think we touched on this little bit last week and just moving to episode five for a second. Like, when the order comes in

from the floor of the restaurant to the kitchen, you have a certain amount of time and you have to deliver a really good version, if not a consistently great version of the thing that they've asked for. And I think about that with the way the show nails opportunities time and time again, where you set up, And we were praising Molly Gordon and that great meat cute with the, what's he holding? He's holding vanilla ice cream. But it's not. It's not. It's not ice cream.

It's veal stock. And she's like, are you making it sun? And he was like, oh, that would taste good, actually. You have the meat cute. That sounds like it would taste fucking gross, honestly. Well, you haven't been to Copenhagen, Chris. I feel like. Do they do a lot of veal stock Sundays there?

I don't want to, like, get into the details, you know, but before 25, I think you should go and see what's happening. You know, like over there. Like live in a boat. with the dead cats. Sorry. What I'm saying is you've set up something that everyone loves. I can't get over the fact that you're in a t-shirt now. Like, I'm hoping we get to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Bench-pressing with you by the end of this. Yeah. It's summer, man. Suns out, guns out. Except on the road to Moscow. So you have this opportunity to do something that I think has a, 100% approval rating with people who watch entertainment, which is cute people who have clearly have chemistry falling in love.

So how are you going to do it? That's an opportunity. And then they write these scenes and things and they nail it. You know, with the things that you want, the hesitation, the interruption, the fact shows up at the exact wrong time. But like, that's what we want from this type of entertainment. And that type of entertainment is not necessarily always served in the same meal as the family dinner in episode six.

But guys, this is chaos menu. and we're getting the best of all the different dishes. And so I loved it. Like, did I fully understand the conceit of, like, who's having this kind of, like, 19-year-old party when they're all in their mid-to-late 30s? I didn't fully, was this, like, old high school friends? I think things go differently in Chicago.

Is it? People are, like, they have house parties. Yeah. I was just unclear that they were all old from neighborhood. It's neighbor-to-friends. Do you think there are late-20s or mid-30s? She's finishing her residency, so I guess she'd probably be in her early 30s, I would imagine, right?

I think so. I know a lot about medical school, so that tracks. I mean, you could have done it. And in ways you did, like you got the gist. You watched a lot of house in the early 2000s. Yeah, I mean, you start to lose it when you're like, so Bernthal, who's, I think, older than us is the older brother of the family, so it's a large, but it doesn't matter. They take advantage of it, and it's delightful.

and it's very sweet. I'm fully invested in them, and I love that he brings her into the absolute craziness. Right. Well, I think he's hoping he's going to bring her there and they're all going to be gone by then, right? He definitely is, but he should know better. I also want to say, Maddie Matheson is a good actor. Yes. There are no bad actors on this show. He is, that's crazy. It's crazy because, you know, Chris, I think there are very few examples that we can point to recently where someone being successful or famous in one field and then they try to become an actor. and a TV show. And, you know, I can't think of another example, not even on this podcast. But I would imagine that the odds are low of them also being good at acting.

But weirdly, he's completely... He's got a real character. And he's present in every scene, and he's hanging with good actors. And do you watch his YouTube at all? No. That's not who Maddie Matheson is. Oh, I have seen him. Yes, I've seen his, like, who he is in the world. Yeah, and he's awesome. And you can tell a lot of his cooking is very influential on the cooking of the show. But I would say that he is doing a really,

good job as like a member of a rogue's gallery of people that are in this guy's life. I think it's worth mentioning for five that they do a really great job in the show of having pop cultural conversations in the background, but not making it too, too,

obvious, so the replacement stuff that comes up a few times and then... You mean like the needle drops? Yeah, no. I mean, but they talk about the replacements. Like, I think... Is that what they're saying? I think FEC is talking about the replacements, the electrician to distract him. He's like Tim.

A lot of people like Tim, but pleased to meet me is like, you know. Tim is better than pleased to meet me. Yeah. Yes. I'm not back to day. I think the highs of Tim are better than the highs of pleased to meet me. Oh, see, I don't see. I think.

You think Alex Chilton and can't hardly wait or better than anything on Tim? And Skyway, like, like, in Valentine or all on please. Do you just like arguing with me now? Yes. But Tim is a better out. Because I'm agreeing with you. It seems like you're not. I was agreeing with you.

You're just kind of an all shook down guy, I guess. I just love the fact that they'll have those little snippets. So Richie's super into Ridley Scott and shit, and then, you know, affects obviously the music guy. But the music thing, I do want to talk about that because I think it could potentially be divisive, and I say potentially in that someone has texted me recently being like, that's the only thing I don't like about the show

is it just these like thunder, like hammering, hammering, obvious needle drops. because they take it needle drops are really powerful, especially when you have a show that is working emotionally. Sometimes you don't need that. I have said repeatedly, it is who they are. Yes.

And it is cooking with soul. And I also think that it's ingenious the way that they have gone back to certain songs as themes. I thought that was interesting. So strange currencies is obviously Claire and Carmis theme song. Because there's no score, right? I think that there is some music. You will see in later episodes there are some, some things going on

that I think that they are using it. I think the other issue potential criticism, and I'm strong-manning this because I'm not on this team with needle drops is that you are trying to communicate emotions

that you're unable to do in the script or show off your cool music taste or whatever. And I would say that to me it's more like, you know, why is this sauce so good

in the restaurants because they fucking put butter on it. That's right. And that's kind of how I feel about them consistently choosing the most important songs of our teenage years. but that it just is the show

and there is something that is big-hearted and shameless about it in its emotional storytelling. I mean, like, would the show be the show without this music maybe? Like, I think it would be fine. It's wild in six when it's just like, yeah, don't dream it's over as playing for these 26 seconds. It's nuts.

So great, let's go into six. It works. Because the music in six is the first time where I was like distracted by the music a little bit where I was like, is this music playing in this house? Right. And is this a mix or something? Or is this just like...

Pete made the mix. So you got in trouble for it. Okay, so six is the one that I think a lot of people have been talking about. It's clearly the kind of the takeout episode of the season. It's a standalone flashback episode that introduces several new characters, some of whom we've heard about in... passing. But the most important ones are obviously

Bob Odenkirk playing Uncle Lee, who is mentioned in the first episode, I believe, when they're taking out the loan from Cicero. From Uncle, for Oliver Platt's character. Yeah, and he has a company with Cicero. I want to say up top, I don't understand who's related to who and who is just being

called cousin or uncle. I thought you had an org chart. I don't. Because there's obviously, the Brissotto are Italian. Then there seems to be a Polish wing of the family. Yeah, and Michael is Jewish. And I would... We do not have a father figure in the house.

I imagine he's dead, right? It seems to be a point of contention with Michael. I'm only joking about his Judaism because John Bernthal is a member of the tribe. He's like, it's my father's house, which means I imagine that he has passed away. Yes. But these other guys are around. They would not be named Berzado, presumably. The facts also play a role.

Yeah. I have no idea who Sarah Paulson is in relation to them, other than all families have the one cousin that lives in New York. Everybody has that cousin. But she's a Brasado, though. Seems to be. And John Mullaney is her husband. Yeah.

And yeah, so I agree. I'm glad you said up front. So a little bit of confusion. Can I say one other thing up front? Yeah. I thought Oliver Platt is low-key giving my favorite performance on the show. I think he's fucking unbelievable in every scene he's in and elevating. the show beyond a already very high place.

Okay. I agree with you. He's doing incredible work. So one thing that I've seen people discuss online about this is that essentially what the bear did so well in its initial sort of presentation is the thing the TV still does, better than movies, is, hey, we found these people. Yes. And now on one hand, like, you're going to fall in love with them.

the problem with that is that you're probably not going to be able to think about Jeremy Allen White not being Carmi or Ae Oed Abiri not being Sid, you know, but you're going to fucking discover these people and just like in Mad Men and just like in loss and just like in cheers like you're just going to have this investment with these people. This kind of upsets the apple cart where you walk in, you get this opening kind of family reunion between Bernthal, Abby Elliott and Jeremy Allen White's characters,

then they go into this house as a house of a fucking thousand Twitter's faves casting choices. John Mullaney, Sarah Paulson, Bob Odenkirk, and then Jamie Lee Curtis, Gillian Jacobs,

and then Jaymealy Curtis as the matriarch of the Brazzado family, as Donna, aka D.D. Yeah. Did you find that distracting at all? I am torn because I have a lot of positive things

to say about this episode. And I think that, you know, It's episodes like these, and the similarly Bravora episode from season one, that was the oner episode, where you see that Christor, who's the creator of the show and the co-show runner, is a filmmaker and wants to make indie films. And what an opportunity he had to make one with this, with this cast. And with the directorial flourishes and the cuts to the buzzards. I mean, it's the type of filmmaking that he clearly excels at. And there is, contrary to what I said about men doing. whatever they want earlier in the podcast.

When people are following their muse fully, it can be pretty thrilling and exciting to see. I also continue to think that this show is more interested in digging deep into emotional interactions and conversations and writing than almost anything else on television. I think in a completely different way, Succession was excellent at that too,

but characters who you come to know, love, understand, empathize with, coming to the table with knives out or forks out, that makes for incredible stuff. And the entry points to these conversations, the context, like we were saying with Robert Townsend as Sidney's dad last week, like that anecdote, that they're all so well chosen that I just find it incredible.

And that the type of emotional narcissism displayed by the mother figure, by their mother, you don't often see things like that. And it was remarkable. Yeah. I mean, he was like, what if we did Long Day's Journey?

into night in the middle of this bear season. So I have nothing, but I just, I'm in awe, I'm impressed, I'm taken with, there are scenes that I would like to rewatch. The casting is a thing. The casting is a thing. Now, I also understand that there's an element of this, which is this isn't the show. The way, everything about this was different. The credits at the beginning, and then at the end it said, the Berzado family as played by,

almost as if it is... I think the title of the episode is the Brasados, right? Or like it, when they, because he does like the Goodfellas, the titles going across the screen thing in the beginning with the Darling Love Song playing. I think it's called the Bursados. Yes. And then it said it as played by or whatever at the end. And it does feel like a rep theater doing these memories, you know, and showing us things. So you can get into the spirit of it.

But it was a stretch for me at times. You know, I think, I think, Oden Kirk. The problem is that when I go through every single one of the performances, I'm like, I loved it. No one was bad. Paulson was amazing. I thought Paulson and Malaney were actually like kind of mesmerizing in some ways like Paulson seemed to fully be

a person who has left this family is successful in New York likes to have a cigarette is living with this guy this is the type of role that she always seems most comfortable like she wants to play yeah but like I feel like we often get pushed towards

her doing like the decathlon in her performances and it's like hey look at her just do a 400 meter run here this is just a real person now And I thought Mullaney was kind of a revelation. You know, I did not know he could act and be in a scene like that. Not really familiar. Does he act in a lot?

No, I mean, I don't think you've seen the Chippendale Rescue Rangers movie. Is he a voice in that? Yeah, he and Sandberg. But I just mean like, I mean like just being a real dude in a thing. Not really, no. No. Pretty amazing. Odin Kirk is incredible.

Yeah, Odin Kirk lives in this world. It's fucking incredible. And it's the other thing that, you know, one of the joys of this, because this show fucking loves things so deeply. It's big. It's like a big love. And they fucking love actors. And they're listening to actors and they're paying attention to actors. And so what is, what have we watched Bob Oden Kirk do over the last, not just 25 years, but particularly like last 10 years is go from like a funny Chicago guy to a funny actor guy to a what's underneath all of it. He will get, he will go to the basement and bring it up. Yeah. And so what does he do? Just in this one episode, and I imagine we'll see more of him, is literally that arc that I just said. It says, asks him to do the thing that he fucking does now. It was awesome. Bernthal, kind of a bad wig. Yeah.

Kind of a fucking knockout performance. I can really do it. Him at the head of the table with the fork scene is, you're like in the, when you're watching it, you are at the table. Where you're like, Mike, please don't do this. Mikey, please don't do this. Mike, you please. And part of that is the brilliant coverage and editing so that what we live with as much as his impotence and rage and whatever he's working through, we also see everyone sitting quietly in horror.

So we feel their horror as well. Do you want to do Wayne Jenkins at the Feast of the Seven Fishes? Like, is this an opportunity for you? I don't think I am. I want to actually just, yeah, sure, but like. I just want to know. It's cool to see him. He's actually like, he's an amazing actor.

He's an amazing actor. And his, his, like, their little moment in the pantry was, like, tell me three things about Copenhagen. Like, it's just so fucking tender and amazing. Like, their whole thing with, like, Claire's a fucking wizard. Like, it's, all that shit is so good. I'm throwing flowers around because I'm going to get up to the point which I don't really want to do, which is that the Jamie Lee Curtis performance didn't really work for me. Personally.

Not on the level of which the other performances did. And I don't think it's her fault. anybody's fault. It was just a personal thing. And I say this is somebody who has been in dinners like this before. Do you know what I mean? Like I've, it's not unfamiliar to me, even as an only child, to see this kind of stuff. You're a great guest. People invite you to all. Yeah, I try to do, I'll do whatever you guys need. You know, I'm a good middle.

Oh, yeah. I agree with you. I mean, I'm of two minds about it. Because again, I think that the show is so big-hearted and it loves the people who are willing to love it and give them so much, you know, and show up. And that's what so much of this episode was. I mean, it was people being like, you've given me this opportunity. I'm going to play in the sandbox. And I bumped a little bit more on Malini,

carrying so much weight, but he didn't really not. When he's just like, yes, I have $500 because I'm a 43-year-old man. He's not, he fits in. Yeah. He does fit in. And since they were doing this, at a certain point, it would have been weird not to cast people who were noteworthy.

you do get down the line of like how are any of these people related to each other but I'm willing to accept it apparently not though they're not right because there's an Italian may like of course classic Italian guy Sarah Paulson but yeah exactly I think I'm circling around to Jamie Lee Curtis too to say that um speaking of love and affection like Abby Elliot didn't have a ton to do the first season dear I thought Abby Elliott was great in this episode she played the silence at the end as well as anyone played anything in the episode she was destroyed and it was is a deep wound, you know, and that's, that's acting.

That's an incredible performance. I totally agree with you. The other standout moment for me was the moment when Oliver Platt agrees to pretend that he's given Richie a job. Yes. You know, the three of them playing that scene together, like they've been squash partners for years. And Evan Moss Backrack, just the empathy and everything he does, even the funniest shit.

We should also make room for Jeremy Allen White, who, is the best scene partner maybe in anything at the moment to play the same character who is a wall half the time, but can get in the fucking arena with any of these actors and be generous enough to let them own the scene is really something while still coming out as the star of the show. I really like the fact, so we just did Indiana Jones and Last Crusade on the rewatchables. And one thing that's really kind of, if you watch it with this, knowing this,

if you watch the flashback in the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, So it's the River Phoenix scene. Yes. And where he goes and finds the cross of Coronado and then he runs through this circus that's on a train. And every single thing that happens to him in each car is why this is why Indy has a bullwhip. Now this is why he has a hat.

This is why he's afraid of snakes. It's like the day that made Indiana Jones. I'm so glad that this is not the dinner that made Carmi. Carmi's already fucked up. Yeah. Carmi already can't talk. Carmis already gone to Copenhagen to get away from his family. everybody like even when the dinner goes atomic

what does Odenkirk say that makes Mikey flip he's like that was bound to happen and now that it has maybe we can all relax and you know even in right before it starts when they're yelling at each other and and Michelle is like ah we have lift off you know like this is a yearly annual event if not more than that they were all aware that this is going to happen this is all already why they are the way they are. We don't find out that day

that this is why Karmie wanted to be a chef. No, we understand now, and he's also given us this. That's also a testament to the performance in all the episodes leading up to this is, you know how you, if you did the X-ray, it wouldn't be dogs inside of him.

It would be this dinner. Yeah. Right? That's why he is the way he is. It's why he seeks immaculate control. But it's this dinner like in totality. It's not this specific dinner. Exactly.

This might be the dinner where mom drove her car through the front door. But there are other ones. I'm sure. Yeah. exactly. I totally agree with that. We just, we were on the exit ramp to talking about Jamie Lee, and then we... Oh, I don't really...

Well, I guess what I want to say is... ...and went back to the highway and kept driving. I guess the only thing I want to say is I really love for her this era of her career, where she's like, I've been an actor and a performer. This has nothing to do with like... No, what I mean is, and you're not arguing this either, where she's just like, she's chaos menu. She's like, fuck it. Like, let's go. I used to be pigeonholed into these types of parts, and I looked this way and I did these things,

and it was fine, and she's memorable and great. And she's fucking going for it now. And that's incredible for any performer at any age. And this and everything everywhere. I respect the hell out of it, even if I'm not... Her is the matriarch of this family, of this loud Italian-American family,

was a bum for me. I think maybe some of it was just that, like, it distracted me because I was just like, that's Jamie Lee Curtis. And that's not her fault. Yeah. And some of it might have been that her portrayal

of someone who was... going through the mental health crisis that this character is obviously experiencing, I don't know. It just, maybe I can, is it enough to say that it's, it wasn't, it didn't quite work for me. But that is, in and of itself, just like, I want to like, kind of like, put it in perspective.

Like, totally. I still thought the episode was incredible. And I thought she actually was convincing as the person who holds so much sway and holds so much real estate over these people. I also think it's worth noting that the reason this episode wouldn't work. and I think that it did work.

The thing that would stop it from working is that if there were stars at that table, not actors, and there were recognizable actors, absolutely everyone showed up to subsume themselves in the world of this show. And probably only for a few days

or whatever, however long they shot us. Absolutely. It must have been a remarkable time to shoot and then not talk about for however long they didn't talk about it. But that is, it's really special. it's another big swing. But yeah. Maybe it's an example of like I don't have a, I don't have like a big family.

And so I don't know chaos like that. Well, I mean, I am, I live in fear of chaos like that. Because there is no chaos in a very proper only child family, right? Like maybe there ought to be a little more chaos. At least so I thought before I watch this episode. Now I'm like, no, I'll sit in silence and occasionally talk about British novels. That's probably preferable to this. it's wild

but like and again if we get the chance to talk to to Chris and Joanna about the show which I hope we do like it's just a remarkable compass that they have especially after the success and the hype of the first season

to just deeply and just seemingly effortlessly understand what their show is here's what we do whether we're doing it in Copenhagen or we're doing it in the past in a nightmare dinner we are still this show

and this is where our fences are and you know I think that's where that's when things go stray. You know, that I'm thinking about it, I wonder whether or not, it's like she has to go big because she has to have this kind of, she has to make this kind of impression on viewers to understand that, like. They're all in terror of her.

They're all totally, I mean, they're all abused by this behavior. Even, you know, it's not traditional physical abuse, but this is. Did you get the impression that she and Odenkirk's character had hooked up at some point? Yeah. And that's why Michael is like, oh, you're doing this again? Or was he just trying to give her a job? Well, that was when I started to get her. get a little confused about the org chart.

Because, yeah, there's a lot of flirtation with both uncles. And there's her sense, you know, that she's sort of sexualized and flirty. I got that sense that there was something. But it's not really made clear. That was all I had for this. Now, you've watched a heads secretly, right? I have. I finished the season. It goes off a cliff, right?

It's terrible. Yeah. Thank you. Especially when they find the hatch. Wow. No. Which one of... Can I give you a little...

A little crumb. Will you let me know, blink twice if Oden Kirk is a scroll? I think that the seventh episode, the next episode, is my favorite episode of The Bear. Really? Full, like, whole series. Yeah, I think so. Wow, I can't wait to watch it here in front of you guys at the studio when we record on Thursday. There's a lot of fucking baseball to watch.

The best part when I was watching on my laptop is that there was, I think it was the, maybe it was the Malaney thing or one of the Malaney things that was pretty funny. and you both looked and you were like are you laughing at the thing that I'm doing? Like you, I don't know you were watching something else

No, I think me and Kaya were talking and you were like laughing and I was like laughing at what we're talking about because you were talking about me no, I can't remember what we were talking about. You're talking about the way baseball has been degraded by this changes.

That's a really good segue to say that we were produced by Kaya McMullen today. Thank God. Thank God. And we'll be back on Thursday to conclude our watch of the bear so 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

So a lot of... So we've done six. 7, 8, 910. So a big, healthy serving for you. For me. Yeah. And then I'd love to talk about I Am Virgo. Oh, yeah.

The Boots Riley show on. So maybe we could do that for Thursday as well. And I hope we get some headlines. You know who I've seen... Hey, you know what I didn't know is that Fran Dresher is like in charge... She's the president of sad. She is like the fulcrum on which all of Hollywood swings right now. Yeah.

She took a swing on a fulcrum? Hinge. Hinges. She took over that esteemed position from Gabrielle Carteris, who was Andrea on 902.10.1. Well, I watched a video of Fran Drescher giving some updates on Negoti's with the studios, and I could not hear the nanny talking to me. Do you think that's a plus for SAG or? I have no comment on that.

Okay. I have no comment. I mean, what if I become an actor one day? What if? I remember some of those Grandland videos. Yeah, but I don't have a cart. You were a scab? You didn't get any benefits for that?

It's called being independent. I thought you were, is SAG after, like, you are actors' equity, but not SAG, right? Yeah. You can perform on Broadway. I, oh, definitely can. Yes. Yeah. And did you like to make an announcement?

Only in hair, though. Oh. Yeah. I thought, I saw that there was a new production of Sondheim's Merely We Roll Along coming this fall with Daniel Radcliffe and Jonathan Groff, and I imagined you were the third call. That's probably it. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. The Boots Riley show, I'm excited to see. He's been on the picket lines. I've seen him a couple times. There you go. Any updates from you? We want to give anybody at minute 74? Do you want to let us know how things are going?

It's not great, Bob. I know. I mean, there have been no... Well, you have a great tan. That's what's important. Thanks. Well, that's from the right field line. No, I mean, there's no negotiations that not because the writers won't, but because

the studios, this is the playbook. They're waiting until 90 days into the strike and then they can start force measuring and canceling overall deals. I see. At which point then there might be negotiation, but, but, but there's absolutely nothing. Okay. I need to hear that.

Waiting on Fran, really. Fran's got to bring us home. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to all our listeners. And thanks to Andy Greenwald. That's me. Yeah. Okay, thank you too.

Thanks. Thank you.