The Watch - The James Franco and the 'All the Money in the World' Controversies, Plus 'Dark' (Ep. 217)

Episode Date: January 11, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald process some of the troubling Hollywood news from this week concerning allegations about James Franco (1:00) and the pay-scale disparity between Michelle Williams and Mark Wahlberg on the ‘All the Money in the World’ reshoots (12:00). Later, for #DarkThursdays they discuss episodes 4-6 of Netflix’s 'Dark' (21:30) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. The NFL playoffs are in full swing, and The Ringer NFL show has you covered for all your pro football needs. Sunday night, get Michael Lombardi and Tate Frazier's rapid reactions on GM Street. On Tuesdays, the Ringer NFL show with Robert Mays, Kevin Clark, and regular guest, Danny Kelly, break down all the biggest angles on Wednesday. GM Street again on Thursdays, Clark, Mays, and Danny are back at it again. And on Friday, GM Street's Friday focus gives you all the insight you need for gambling,

fantasy and everything else don't forget about my podcast too on mondays the bs podcast cousin sal and i playing guest alliance more importantly the ringer nfl show subscribe right now on apple podcast spotify or wherever you get your podcast i need sports to have to clear the room stand up and walk now hello and welcome to the watch my name is chris ryan i'm editor at the ringer and joining me on the other line, reenacting a purple place for dying. It's Andy Greenwald! Hey man, still on the phone. I apologize for our audio fidelity head.

But I'm back in the studio next week and we've got a lot to talk about today. It just shows your commitment to excellence that you won't let. Even this family vacation, the Greenwald family vacation, you still want to come through with the takes. Listen, the more kids you have, the more opportunities you want to work on vacation. I'm just being honest. Is that true? Would you say that's the case?

I'm saying the little me time, and me time meaning me and you and our beloved listeners, that's quality for me. That's nice. It's a little, we'll flip out the airlock, you know?

I'm going right back in. I'm going right back into Solaris. I'm good. Andy, it's Dark Thursday in more ways than one. We're talking about the Netflix show Dark. We're doing episodes four, five, and six today. So that would be the bulk of the show. Typically, at the top-of-watch episodes,

we bullshit with one another for a few minutes and also talk about stuff that's sort of making news these days and obviously the news is not good I mean the news is generally incredibly naughty and it's also operating on a couple of different levels Andy and I are obviously human beings and we try to like have compassion for other people and then there's also the element of like

what does this mean for X, Y or Z element of the entertainment the show business industry. So we have a couple of stories that are kind of bouncing around right now that we want to sort of touch on and not to get too meta about it, but we're kind of like working through the way to talk about this stuff live.

And that's sort of what... Sorry to jump in. I just think that like, you know, a lot of people who do what we do or who are lucky enough to do what we do for a living for a long time that wanted to maintain kind of a quote unquote new critical approach to it, like the new critics did.

straight English major stuff, meaning the text is the text, and we don't go beyond the text. We don't talk about the context. That's always impossible, I think, but it sure is fun to try to make it possible when you have a season of Breaking Bad to talk about or like we're about about to do with Dark. Frankly, we don't know the facts on the ground in Germany right now in the German television industry. We're just going to talk about the show. But look, one thing that we've always done on the show, and I'm proud that we've always done it, is we've tried to bring in some empathy and subjective knowledge of the industry as a whole. Because especially when we talk about TV, although you could say this about all entertainment,

the business story is almost always as much a part of the story as the creative story. And the creative story isn't the whole story. I mean, the business part of what gets made. So we find ourselves in this position where while we're struggling with this convergence of events, everyone is. I mean, whether it's thanks to Twitter moment, all of the walls are crashing in at the same time. And so just to use an example, before we get into the bold points of some stuff that has happened this week since Monday, Monday morning almost, is when all these other stories

started to break, is that, you know, we love the show The Deuce. We like talking about the show The Deuce. We're looking forward to talking about the second season of The Deuce and having Megan Abbott and George Pelacanos and other writers we admire and like and have become friendly with on the show to talk about it. One thing that's part of the story of the second season of the deuce is James Franco is the star of that show. Yeah. and even previewing it, discussing what it might be. Now, we don't know what's going to happen with him or his career or we can't speak to the veracity of any of what's going on.

We wouldn't presume to do so. Yeah, for just to anybody who's not aware, for anyone's not aware, Andy's referring to a Los Angeles Times report today that went into greater detail about some stories that had been circulating online on Twitter and some various other places about Franco's behavior, specifically his behavior with people who attended his filmmaking school, his acting school. I think it was called Studio 4 that was based out of here.

And you can read the Los Angeles Times piece to find out the details about that. But this obviously brings up a lot of conversations where, you know, as he was going through the Golden Globe ceremony, wearing a Times Up pin, winning for Best Actor in a Musical or a comedy, having this kind of coronation, there was also this counter-narrative and this counter-narrative and this counter story happening about, you know, I'm not sure what's going to happen, but it's, you know, arguably his downfall, you know what I mean, at least for the time being. And he's been accused by at least five people of sexual misconduct and sexual assault in some cases. So, you know, he's been doing some press this week.

He was on Colbert and Seth Myers, and both hosts asked him about it. And he tried to talk about it in a certain. kind of way. But it's kind of bizarre to see this Hollywood Dog and Pony show that is award season where people are going through these media marathons, doing all these interviews, doing all these promotional bits to promote the films that they're trying to be awarded for. And if they get awards, that will catapult them to new earnings levels, which we will talk about in a second, and have that juxtaposed with this actually becoming an opportunity

to put Franco's feet to the fire, as we saw Cole. Berr and Seth Myers do over the course of the week when Franco appeared on their late-night shows. And Franco is sort of a weird case. He is not reclusive. I mean, he is a very performative. A lot of the stuff that he does with his own celebrity is stuff he turns into art. You know, just thinking about when he did that soap opera and then that soap opera and then the footage from that soap opera or his performance on that soap opera became part of an art installation. this is not an art installation.

This is real life, and these are real people that he is alleged to have hurt. But at least, what do you think about the idea that this is all happening, not just in public because it's being reported on,

but because it's actually being, it's taking place in front of our eyes in a lot of ways. Well, yes, the reason, you know, the other reason why it's happening now, aside from again, aside from the particular moment and aside from the fact that let's all hope

that time is indeed up, that this is award season. And award season is the time when the people behind the characters and behind the movies step forward and speak as themselves and receive awards as themselves. And that is, that, you know, that shatters this sort of the idea of being a new critic completely, right? Because what we're really doing is celebrate performances that these people give and the art that they make or that they've been allowed to make.

You know, and, you know, I don't know if we even talked about it much on the podcast, but I saw the disaster artist. I thought it was completely deeply inessential, but I read my opinion of his performance for the film the disaster artist. He is now standing in front of microphone, and he is now being given awards for who he is and what he's done, and that is when these questions can and should be asked.

I don't know. Thankfully, we are not in a position to, we're not adjudicating this, but we are wrestling with it in terms of our own... Well, I guess what I was trying to get at is just this idea that when people get awards, generally, especially the actors,

there is this overarching narrative that is attached to their, to that win, which is the things that they did to get it, whether it was the various roles, whether it was their time, whether it was the kind of role they played that appeals to a certain voting body. And to have that sort of shattered and have this entire machine almost turned back inside on itself to say, what about you as a person, you know?

Like, and are you, you know, you want to come out and say, vote for me, go see the disaster artist, you know, celebrate me as this sort of quirky postmodern celebrity. And now you're actually under the microscope. It's a, outside of what he may or may not have done, it's a kind of a bizarre moment of celebrity. Look, there's something that we, you and I might, or other people might quickly ascribe to Twitter culture,

but it actually has always been deeply baked into awards culture, to Oscar culture, which is the idea that the people who do work that we like also. the people are good people and deserve awards and will deliver a touching speech and love the right people and, you know, say, tell their children to go to bed now that they've seen daddy or mommy win. Yeah. You know, perform the performance, continue the performance of being a good person. Now, this is going to be the business of Hollywood and maybe, you know, going forward and

it's going to be the business and critique and engage with and interview people involved in it. But it is a strange moment to expect. not to expect a decency, you know, from people that we award and want to be misconstrued saying that. But to expect the best behavior that we would expect from our friends and loved ones from everyone, you know, and I don't know if that's where this is it's a fascinating moment. The only thing I was going to bring up as a character is a community released a podcast. He has a podcast, but on it, he took, I believe, something like eight minutes to just

completely without reservation. without self-pity, without any kind of mask whatsoever, apologize for his treatment of writer Megan Gann, who was an accused of mistreating her and harassing her when she worked on what are, I think, inarguably the best seasons of community. And to hear the way that he did it and, you know, her grace and accepting it, which she did not have to do, was kind of a, you know, I don't want challenging and troubling week,

but it did make me feel a little point-blank, big one, you know, what we're talking about today. I know we also wanted to talk about the ways that, you know, the Franco story is obviously speaks to, it's worth noting that other stories that are coming out this week, speak to, I think, a more insidious problem, which is the sort of systemic and institutionalized misconduct that exists in gender politics, particularly in Hollywood. And that's the all the money in the world story, which you and I were crowing about a few weeks ago is, you know, how exciting, how great, because it itself was in response. If this time period has taught me anything, it's don't crow about anything. No, I know, I know. And, you know, the facts of this one are still coming out. But basically, I mean, do you want to run, do you want to do the rundown on this? Since you're actually on a microphone and I'm on a... Yeah, sure.

I mean, obviously, everybody read about... I think more people read about all the money in the world replacing Kevin Spacey with Christian Plummer than actually went and saw all the money in the world, which did not do very well at the box office. And obviously, this is Ridley-Scott movie about Jay Paul Getty and the kidnapping that took place, I think, in the 1970s. Michelle Williams, Mark Wahlberg, were also in the film. When the allegations against Kevin Spacey came to light, he was removed from the film. Plummer replaced him,

and Ridley Scott reshot scenes with Christopher Plummer that had originally been Kevin Spacys. To do that, he needed some of the cast, and there was a very public kind of, we're all in this together moment. Michelle Williams had said that she would have done it for free, that she would have given away her vacation, vacation and she apparently was paid her

basically whatever the minimum wage her per diem was on the set. It is now come to light that while she took obviously next to no money to do this to go back and reshoot her scenes, Mark Wahlberg allegedly negotiated for a million and a half dollars. There was a report in USA today earlier in the week and that the way that the stories have been written

paying it so that it was like basically, like Mark Wahlberg knew he had the sort of leverage in this situation. They needed him and he got his money. Now, the juxtaposition between Walberg and Williams and doing something altruistically because it needs to be done and to save the movie and to feel good about the movie coming out, they wanted to replace Spacey. Michelle Williams is willing to do whatever it took,

whereas Mark Wahlberg demanded a certain amount of money. and there's details in, depending on which story you read, there are some that are more Wahlberg friendly, and there are some which are very anti-Walberg. And then there is the conversation about the fact that Michelle Williams and Mark Wahlberg are represented by the same talent agency. Yeah, I think that's where the problem lies, to be honest.

I mean, look, let's start from one place, which is that people should get paid for work that they do. In general, that is a strong belief I have. I think our good friend, Chase Serrano put it best, And the kind of way that you would want to put as your yearbook quote would agree with that and base my professional life on that as well. Because in this case, Ridley Scott basically said, please, we need to do this. I'm going to do it for free.

Is there any way we can make this happen? Michelle Williams, and I think, yes, this is so important to me because I believe in, you know, I don't want to be part of, I don't want all this work that I did personally to go to waste. I don't want all this work that all these people that I worked with and believe in to go to waste. and I don't want to valorize Kevin Spacey, who is an accused sexual predator. So she immediately signaled that she would do it and gave up her Thanksgiving vacation with her daughter, who spent it with other family members, and was apparently supportive of her mom doing this. This immediately gave Mark Wahlberg leverage, because once the other star had agreed to do it,

then he could control whether it actually happened or not. Is it good agenting to then demand more money to do it? I mean, that's what agents do, it's possible, and extract the most money possible for. their client. Yeah, this is the Chris Rock joke about that Tiger went Tiger. Yeah, right. Well, well, well said. But I think that what we need to look at when we talk about this is who's representing who and what are the expectations from different people. It is stereotypically or not. It is generally assumed in the workplace. And this is one of these institutionalized systemic problems that is almost never addressed that is now being talked about, that women will

collaborate, that women will put and go along with things to make things better. The assumption clearly was if they asked Michelle Williams first, and she did. Now, that speaks well to her. But the agency, the same agency, needs to be representing her as well as it is representing Mark Wahlberg. Either neither of them get paid, either they get paid and they donate it to charity, or they both get paid and they should be paid equally because let's remember, she's the star of the movie. It is complete. negligence agency to have this come out like this and to have it be handled like this. And it's so deeply disrespectful.

And it's disrespectful in a way that feels incredibly familiar because it's disrespectful in the way that all of these stories have been disrespectful. It's really, I would say it's shocking, but in fact it is the opposite of shocking. The connection here, too, between the two stories is that this stuff that was happening under the rug, behind curtains, behind closed doors, whispered about, done over text message is coming out. It's fascinating to live in a world where you don't talk about money.

I mean, at least that's, you know, I think you don't talk about, for as much as we talk about money, for as much as we talk about whether this actor is worth $20 million a movie or this NBA player is worth $25 million a season, the way that we talk about money is different. And in a weird way,

this is a very symbolic story about, like what you're saying, about something that happens in industry, all over the country, all over the world, is this financial incentive of being a man. This was something that was a low-key story. It wasn't even a low-key story, but it was an undercurrent of some of the stuff

you were seeing at the Globes. It was Natalie Portman talking about no women being nominated for Best Director. And then Jessica Chastain talking about, and Jessica Chastain, I believe Gina Davis and Susan Sarandon, talking about pay discrepancies, talking about people being paid less than their male counterparts for doing equal, if not more work.

And this is something that I think that, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know where we're going to be. We're doing a podcast this time next year, and you're doing it for free, obviously. I don't know where we're going to be. I don't know if we're going to be like, oh, you remember when that was like such a big deal last year

or if we're still going to be talking about it? And I kind of hope, I hope that it is. I hope that you and I have more uncomfortable. so what should we talk about? Should we talk about Franco? I mean, I don't want this to keep happening to people, but I hope that this stuff remains in the forefront of the conversation so that some things actually change.

Yeah, and let me just say one thing, going back to the Golden Globes, which suddenly feel like they happened six months ago. Big Little Lies won, and I said something that may have even been considered as Flippin on our podcast from Monday, saying that the Golden Globes producers have done a good job staggering the Big Little Lies eligible award,

throughout the evening to make it seem like the evening was following some sort of narrative. I don't think I should have been so glib in suggesting that Big Little Lies was significant, not just because I didn't finish the series, which is on me. The thing to remember about that show, it's not just awarding Nicole Kidman and Laura Dern for being terrific. The significant thing about Big Little Lies is that that only happens because of the of Nicole Kidman, Reese Witherspoon, and Reese Witherspoon's producing partner, Bruno Papandrea. They made that happen.

They put that package together. They got Shailene Woodland. They got... They hired David E. Kelly, who yes, is a man. They hired John Mark Velle, who is a man. They worked for the women, in this case. And not only did they make it an award-winning hit, it was a huge ratings hit for HBO.

And a potentially, if they're continuing to make more of these things, which they now are, for HBO, a network, which is nominally the most powerful, although that's been flipping to Netflix, but one that is certainly in need. of more hits now the Game of Thrones is going off the air. So let's remember that as the triumph from Monday night, and hopefully we'll see more things in that vein going forward.

The huge power imbalance that exists, as we're reminded of daily, any opportunity for some correction or some corrective to be made towards that is a win for everybody. Yeah. So we'll take a quick break here to hear from our sponsors, and we'll be back to talk about episodes four, five, and six of Dark. Hi, Bachelor Nation. This is Juliet Litman, host of the Bachelor Party podcast, a new season of The Bachelor is in full swing, and so the podcast is back, but this time I have my own feed.

You can find new episodes every Monday night by going to the ringer.com slash podcast or by subscribing to Bachelor Party wherever you get them. Come for the recaps and roses, stay for the drama, and for moments like this. Please tell me you don't already have a little wiener. I do not have this, so yeah, you did good. Awesome. Don't forget, subscribe to the Bachelor Party podcast today. It's available everywhere, including Apple and Spotify,

and Google. Andy, we're back. Dark Thursdays. This is the one that I was the most excited for, this chunk right now. So we're talking about episodes 4, 5, and 6. The Netflix show Dark. We talked about the first three episodes last week. These were the ones where, and you and I've talked about this a little bit offline,

but this is the one, these are the three episodes that I thought went up a notch. That kind of took the leap as a, helped the show take a leap outside of, oh, cool mystery with some interesting supernatural elements to shit gets deeper. And the things that you do as a child reverberate throughout your life as an adult. I completely agree. I was ready to do this project with you because I thought the show was fun. I thought it would be fun to watch something that was kind of did your head in in a sort of sci-fi genre way that would be well suited to this kind of engagement.

And then I got to episodes. And that was when I realized this show isn't just good. Like, this is a good way to spend some time watching it together. with our listeners in January, this rate. And I was so, with these episodes, what looks like maybe some either reticence, chilliness in the first episode and the first second episode is revealed in these episodes to be a masterful sense of control. This story is being doled out to us by someone who knows what they are doing, by people

who know what they are doing. And I think a lot about in this day and age, particularly in the international market, particularly in the international market that is deeply influenced by American TV and is now sort of spitting it back to us in bingible form for Netflix, which has now become an international player and in many ways helping to define what the international language of television is. there are two models and poke holes in this if you disagree, or maybe I haven't thought it through enough because I'm in love with my own idea, but two models for prestige drama coming out of the quote-of-quote golden age or the difficult men. One is a showlessly and pulls you along, and that's the Breaking Bad model. And I don't say that to be, I don't mean to imply that pejoratively because Breaking Bad is a masterpiece, and we're going to talk about it again next week, anniversary of its debut.

The other model is more the little's in and spreads out. Yep. And I was in on dark when I thought it was the former, I realized it's actually the latter. Yes, and it's the ladder in a way that isn't... So I think we had talked to the last week about the idea that, you know, this was a brilliant act of plotting

and that, you know, I always enjoy when there's some sort of watch or clock imagery in a show because I think that it indicates that the writers of the show are taking the narrative architecture of the show seriously that there's something, I mean, I know that that's an image you return to often

when you wrote about Breaking Bad at Grayland was this idea that every little piece of this show matters. And that's the thing that you feel about dark is that these little character beats that you sort of notice but you're so engrossed in what's going on with these missing kids

and these time jumps, you realize that it's all going somewhere, you know? And I think that the other show that you got to bring up when you talk about this show is Lost, because I felt like Lost did certain things with ensemble, with acting ensembles, in terms of how their stories were told in a way that maybe we had seen before,

but when you teach people how to watch your show. And now I am starting to learn how to watch Dark, and I am starting to realize now that the interconnectedness of the characters is second nature to me, you start to realize, oh, this is a Charlotte episode. And Charlotte, who just seemed like Ulrich's weird partner,

is actually central to this show. And what I think is so cool about it is that when you watch a television show, it's not like life. Because the television show has to make decisions about who's going to spend the most time on screen, who are going to be the people who are the catalyst for the story to move forward or backwards or whatever.

that's not life. Life is, everybody is the star of their show. Life is, in my life, Andy, is this person who is in a lot of, but not all of my life, and vice versa for us to. But the way that this show works by subtly pushing different people to the foreground or the background gives you so much more empathy for what they're experiencing, even if what they're experiencing is complete hogwash, you know? The show, which I really, really appreciate. And frankly, I am, I am shocked in a show. shamed at my behavior last dark Thursday when I made some jokes about not recognizing who was you're like you didn't know Jonas's name my name is Jonas I mean I mean it's right there in the song but I wasn't there yet you know that that's like me saying who's that guy who wants to legalize drugs in Baltimore without you know what course you wait to learn buddy Colvin's name you understand what I'm saying yes these people matter these people have lives and their personalities and they have been considered.

And maybe the first time we see them, the mystery is intentional. And I love in five and six, we can get into some of the specifics now, but I think you've already started to touch on them. It should be second nature to storytellers of any genre, any medium, to have the empathy and the generosity,

to give humanity to everyone in your show, in your novel, in your movie, whatever. But particularly, the humanity tends to drop away in heavily plotted genres, stuff where there's just so much work explaining how the clock works and how each dial relates to another that you forget about, you forget that the people aren't just folks on the wheel. I was really, really pleased to see that obviously that's not the case here. When we first

meet Ulrich, let's think about it. When we first meet him and we don't know who he is, we see that he's sleeping with someone. By the time we really get the sense of who he is in the show, he is sort of our de facto, one of our de facto heroes. We've sort of forgotten his infidelity, because now we see him as the victim of this terrible crime. And then when we see him confront Alexander at the gates of the nuclear plant, of course we're Tim Ulrich. And we think Alexander is this turned out to be also, because the point of the show is that people are more than one thing. They may be trapped in themselves. They may be trapped in cycles of violence and despair that They have no idea how to escape, whether they are supernatural reasons or quite frankly,

quite natural reasons. But one of the most powerful moments in this show happens so far, to my mind, happens in episode six. When Regina comes home, the cancer news has now been told not just to the audience, but her husband knows it. She knows he knows it. And all he does is embrace her. And there's nothing more needs to be said.

He embraces her because Regina just went through Hagler-Herns with my girl, Katharina. I mean, look, let's talk about this. You texted me the other day, and were you like, are you team Charlotte? Are you team? Who, would you ask me if I was? I just like, we were talking about Team Honor or Team Catarina, and you were like Regina and I was like Charlotte, you know? No, no.

First of all, it's like, obviously, first of all, Charlotte is the Queen. Yeah. I represent the Wind and Bird Gang to the Fullet. That said, that's that. That said, Regina had a rough go of it, you know, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. So, look, it is exciting. It is exciting to even be able to do this.

it's incredible to already have the level of empathy on our behalf, poor characters so that when Hana seems to be almost irredeemable in some ways, when we see her face, when Jonas sees his mother and his grandfather, because he suddenly wandered through the most claustrophobic nightmare cave of all time into the past. On behalf of the audience, too, we are almost happy to see them because they seem happy and young, yet they are always the same people. And to convey that through the scrim of a very elaborate, very complicated science fictional story,

I mean, I don't know how you say kudos in German. Maybe you say kudos. Can we talk a little bit about the hammer drop, which is something I think you called, I had already seen it. You had texted me, I think when you were watching three or four and we're like,

this is what's going to happen, right? Beginning of three. Yes, nice one, man. See, don't ever let it be said that you don't know what you're talking about. When they tell you that, don't listen to them. They probably will tell me that on Twitter.

What Chris is talking about is the reveal that Mikkel is Michael Jonas' father. And that Michael was going to remain trapped in the past and grow up to father of his son. And he killed himself on that night because that was the night he was disappearing. And there is the idea also that gives it the, it's not just the reveal. It's the fact that there's a line in his note that he says he grows up to be a man who never really knew where he belonged. And that is the one that really gets you

because it articulates a character that you don't get to see it all. You don't really get, the first image of the show itself is Michael's suicide, or Michael's suicide, as it were. And you don't really get to spend very much time with him. All you see is the impact that his death has on the characters. And that line sort of tells you everything you need to know about him.

It also speaks to the mastery of the show that the reveal is in episode five, the halfway point of a 10 episode season. When we talked to our friend Sam Esmail about the stuff, and we were particularly when we were talking to him about season one of Mr. Robot, he assumed people would know, and we're not going to spoil Mr. he assumed people would know the big twist in season one. He was not trying to hide that. He had a secondary twist that he was happy to keep relatively secret hiding behind the first one. But he knew, and this is a lesson learned from plenty of entertainment, but you could point to loss as one of them, you better have something to back up your story. It can't just be a twist or a reveal. You better have more to it than that. And that said, it takes a lot of confidence to create something wholly original, and of course their influences, but to create something not based on previously existing IP.

and then just be in your writer's room and however they do it in Germany, crafting it, and then be confident in your storytelling in the backbone behind the reveal that you can give it away when you give it away knowing there is more to be told, knowing that you're not, you're not, you're maximizing the impact then. Because frankly, if they'd drawn it out more, it would have been ridiculous. Yeah. It would have lessened the true impact of the show, which is something that we've sort of repeated a number of ways as we've talked about it, which is this idea of never being able to escape

yourself. It gets you, man. I think you said it last week. It gets you. I wonder that a show that it's about 40-year-old and 16-year-olds would get us. Yeah, and it also gets at this idea of, you know, I think that other shows have obviously played with the idea that everything that has happened, everything that is happening has happened before and will happen again,

whether it's lost or Battlestar, that these shows have dealt with this idea that time is actually all happening at once. But there's something very heroic about this. idea, and I don't know if that's exactly what's going to happen, because I haven't watched ahead yet, that Jonas and that all these characters are now in a place where they could actually fundamentally change their lives and write some of the wrongs that happened in the past because of this ability to go back. Or will nothing change? Because that's, it's impossible. And I'm, you know, we'll talk about that next week. We don't know yet. I did want to ask you after, or do you have, you want to say something about that?

No, go ahead. I have to ask you something after you ask me something. We talked about this a little bit last week. We leave Parents Corner typically for the Bill Simmons podcast, and I have not yet to father a sion to my empire. That you know of. That I know of. But you can't let Yassine walk through the forest, guys.

I don't mean to repeat myself, but it's just like the forest needs to be a no-go zone, right? You can't be like, where are you at? Yes, and the fact that Yassine's mom was like, Elizabeth, do you need a ride? It's wild raining out here as it is 348 other days of the year in Winden. Birds are straight up dropping from the air. Everybody's draped up in the Patagonia. But I'm just going to let Yassine take like a shortcut and bump into Assassin's Creed. Yeah, I mean, I think you have to accept certain things in this.

And one thing you have to accept, and it helps us, I think, being in a bit. American audiences because we don't know. Like here in this country, let me retreat to parents' corner, and I'll use that particular. People don't just let their kids play outside anymore, you know, for good or ill. Maybe that conversation hasn't really happened to Germany. I don't know. Maybe there's just an aura of safety emanating from good, clean nuclear power that makes

people think that their kids should just be, you know, just Davy Crocketing nonstop, even if they are, yeah, I don't know, death. And there's an abductor of children roaming around in a priest costume or whatever. the fact may be. You have to kind of accept that. And again, the emotional weight of the show helps erase some of those sins that these things just seem, you have to create the circumstance for these children to disappear. And in reality, I don't think anybody would let their children out of their site, full stop, maybe ever again, you know, I think that there's a strong, but yeah. So it's okay. So that's, that's one knit to pick. Do you have any others?

No, that was really it. I think that, I just, I thought it would be remiss if I didn't mention the sort of flip side to what you're talking about with Ulrich in terms of going from, you know, being the nominal hero of the show and then slowly having his sort of world disassembled is the what they're doing with Hana, which I think is actually probably the most effective thing because it's taking an archetype of this sort of the woman who's ruining the other guy's life. And it's showing every single aspect of her life from her. childhood through her adulthood that has sort of brought her to this place. And I don't know, obviously it draws heavily from E. McEwen's atonement in terms of the narrative trick it plays.

But I really, really, really appreciate the way that they're handling that story. That idea of differing perspectives, I mean, it's a masterclass of it in 106, the sixth episode. first of all, again, what a balzy move to know or hope, let's just say hope, there's no way they could have known that audiences would have been invested enough in the emotional arc of your characters. You're many, many, many, many characters

by the sixth episode that you could have that extended vamp based around a monologue from Antigone and have me be riveted. Riveted. And obviously part of that is sound design, which is exceptional in the show, and editing and direction, all of which is really, really strong.

But for me, it is the emotional strings that are pulling me in. Shees her daughter in pain, sees through the performance, and, you know, and in increments of love basically rescues her daughter. And then five minutes later, it's cold-cocking Regina in the hallway. I know. Really beating her down with a purse, too, just like getting after it. And for that character swing, not, I don't mean the uppercut she's delivering, for that swing to be plausible.

I mean, that's really, really. do you want to take a minute Oh, on that note, I did want to say when we're talking about Ketterina, we're talking about her kids. I think about the show. It's a busy time. Not a lot of these things last after the screen goes dark, but I lay awake, falling asleep, thinking about the show.

One of the things I think about is, which parts are incest now? And I think I figured out if you want to talk me through if there's any of missing, but I'm pretty sure if Jonas should just step back and let Bartos have that girl. Yeah. It kind of is like very wind, like,

of the lion where it's just like Henry is with the woman that are his wife raised but his wife is also you know with Philip or I can't even tell anymore there's a lot of cousins in the mix no look that's cool

but he's kissing his aunt I mean I just think we need to be up front about that and I imagine the show will now at some point as well I think he's realized that that's why he didn't show up to the performance not because he hates theater although again weird turnout for theater that night you know it seemed like a lot of grownups were coming.

Yeah, for sure. Big, big, big, big, big, big, windin loves to support the arts. Andy, we got to wrap it up. Not much community, not much community theater. Before we go, I know we have to go,

Chris, you just want to clear out in the lane and, and why she's the best character on this show. Yeah, I just think that we've gotten so many, like, quote unquote, weird cops, like cops who are just, you know, empathic in their work, but unable to interact with the rest of the world. And this is just not that character.

She plays that way for the first two episodes. We're like, Oh, Charlotte's pretty weird. Birds dropping out of the sky. And then you see her character as a child where she's drawing them and this sort of fascination she's had with the Chernobyl birds.

And it's just not that. She's just someone, she's just a very fascinating, well-developed character. And all of that is, you have to give almost extra points to something like that in a show that's this narratively complicated.

You know, and all I want for Charlotte's happiness. I know that she probably will never be able to have a dill pickle with her sandwich at lunch again. Or more sign language arguments with her daughter. I love those too. We got to wrap it up, Andy. We will be back on Monday. We will be talking, I think we're going to talk about Breaking Bad on Monday, aren't we?

Yeah, I think the 10th anniversary of the beginning was this week, but I didn't want to do it over the phone. So we're going to do a little Breaking Bad retrospect. Yes, so you guys have three days to watch the entire series of Breaking Bad for our podcast on Monday. And then we'll be back Thursday to discuss the final episodes of Dark. And also, you know, that means dark Thursdays are going to end next week, and we'd like to start chapter watching something else. we're considering Mosaic, the Steven Soderberg show, premiering in a couple of weeks on HBO. Is there something that's been lingering on Amazon or Netflix, particularly? Because I think, you know, streamable services that we can binge really lend themselves to this kind of coverage.

Let us know, because honestly, dark bubbled up at the end of the year, a bunch of critics noticed it for their top 10 list. Other people, other people were raving about it. But really, I think it was fit out. Absolutely. Our ears and eyes are open. Let us know. All right. We'll be back next week.

Take care, guys. I will see you in the studio, Bransky. I can't wait.