The Watch - The Joys of ‘High Fidelity’ and a ‘Narcos: Mexico’ Roundtable With Eric Newman, Scoot McNairy, and Diego Luna | The Watch

Episode Date: February 17, 2020

‘High Fidelity’ is a show where you get to hang out with Zoë Kravitz for 10 episodes, but it’s also much more than that (9:35). The seventh episode of ‘The Outsider’ doesn’t do too much to push the story forward (21:04). Plus, conversations with Eric Newman (30:06), Scoot McNairy (0:00), and Diego Luna (46:27) about Season 2 of ‘Narcos: Mexico’ (1:08:44). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Eric Newman, Scoot McNairy, and Diego Luna Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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dollar coupon on your next Zyakam purchase. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. The only president we acknowledge is Zoe Kravitz. It's Andy Greenwald.

Buddy, it's a federal holiday. It is. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for your service and thanks for your sacrifice. It's not about me. It's like the parking lot here at the studio is a ghost town. Yes. They do not shoot how to get away with murder on President's Day.

No, the Teamsters are very clear about that. And then... Those guys have Daytona 500. They have it on DVR. They're going to go home and watch it. No spoilers. Yeah. I heard there was a new entrant in the field.

But here we are because culture never sleeps. Yeah, man, Monday. And we have a couple of things to talk about. So Greenwald and I're going to chat for a little bit. We wanted to talk about last night's outsider and a little bit of high fidelity, which you can listen to my interview with Veronica West and Sarah Kusirka, the showrunners last week. We did that on Thursday.

I haven't listened to that yet, and I will. Because now I've watched the show, and we're going to talk about it. I heard, did you, like, ask them for their top fives? They came prepared with them. Okay, that was my question. And then they put me on the spot, and I came up with five on the spot, like top five bands, basically. You had to do that on the spot at our age? It's not like an impossible task.

I just felt like one of the things that they talk about in the book, movie, and now show of high fidelity, is the nuance that goes into making lists because of what you're trying to say about yourself. Because you're just advertising yourself. And I just came straight basic with it. I was like, The Clash and Mutang Clan. Yeah. You know. Yeah, because I don't, that's true.

Because that sort of self-presentation, which was a hallmark of the book and the series, was also a hallmark of like friendster testimonials. And I feel like we've aged out of that demographic. The whole idea about it, it's not what you're like, but what you like. Right. That was the big thing in the book, especially. I love that show, and I'm happy to talk about it with you. We can also just say up top that the second half of this show is dedicated in

entirely. To what? A little Netflix show called Narcos! What's amazing about Chris is you have to understand that when I walked in here on a holiday, he had his feet up. He's got his half-calf, whatever, just looking at me. This is full tilt. What I mean is you're super chill.

And I had no idea you were about to uncork the dragon. Narcos Mexico came out on Friday. I had the pleasure of talking with Eric Newman, who's a showrunner on Narcos Mexico, and has been like the long-running showrunner of that show as well. as Scoot McNary, who is one of the stars of Narcum. And Your Spirit Animal. And Diego Luna, who plays Miguel Anheel, Felix Garo, on Narcos Mexico. So we talked a lot about the sort of two-season arc of the last two and what happens on

this season. I'm going to probably at some point down the road once people have a chance to get through the season, talk a little bit more in-depth about it. Can I ask you my question for the showrunner of Narcos Mexico, which is, when is he going to go even more granular with it and invest? the drug culture of like American suburbs. Where is Narcos King of Prussia and Coward? I'm just saying like where is the story?

And it's just like a guy who sells dirtweed on like Route 1 outside of Boston. Like let's figure this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who is that guy? I don't know. Actually, I do know. The rise of a legend, yeah.

The fall. All right, what do you want to talk about first? You want to talk about high fidelity or outsider? Well, there are a couple, I thought there were a couple other cultural things. There's some bits and bobs. Do you want to start on Datington Island? I was up on the mountain this weekend. Literally.

I was on a sort of an impromptu ski weekend with my family. And I just want to say that I ran the numbers, no, I've only. I do think, Chris, have you, I mean, I feel like our listeners know that I don't, I don't ski. There's both a narcos joke and not a narcos joke. I've never been skiing in my life. And one of the things about being our age is I'm very comfortable with that. Like, I no longer feel I need to put in the effort. Yeah, it's not on your bucket list.

That's fine. Yeah. I have tried. I have failed. And I'm good with that. Yeah. But, you know, seeing the scene here in California, which is really remarkable because the sun is warm, but the snow is cold. And they were...

Mandel! He was there. They were blasting. It was actually, the part I respected most was that they were blasting. like 70s AOR rock you know on the big speakers and the people who go skiing

on holiday weekends Like Steve Miller? No like Pat Benatar Which I was down with And the people who go skiing I do think that it's a front I do think some people like to strap on the boards And the gear and they enjoy the feeling of the wind

racing past their faces or whatever Whatever the joy is I'm sure It's there But really what people were doing, was getting hammered. And that doesn't feel 100% safe because we got to the mountain, like 8.30. And once you heard that telltale rattle of the grate in front of the multiple bars rolling up,

it's beer clock, you could hear the salivatory glands, salivary glands just starting to go. people were buying their children's cinnamon rolls and themselves like double desert eagle cans of Mexican lager or like triple, triple Bloody Mary's at 8.55 am. It's weird that there's like there's still a couple of things in American life where it is just like we just allow it to be. That's what it was. You can get shithoused doing this. And it was interesting because they were having the giant beers and also burritos bigger than your head. Yeah. Like, they were just like, let's put this in me.

And then let's hurtle down a mountain at untold velocities. And I'm like, in France, there's a prey ski, right? Which is what I'm super into, which is after other people ski, you have a drink. Yeah. Avant ski is what this life is about. What you don't know is that every Monday, while we're waiting for you to park, Kaya skis up to the front of this office with a triple bloody Mary and a burrito. I believe that.

And she goes, surfs up, bros. I also want to say in honor of the American film Downhill's total wipeout at the box office this week Oh, did that not do well? Which is unfortunate because I've heard it's pretty good. There were a couple times that I, a couple moments I had up on that, that sun deck where I was like, I think that if I'm being honest with myself, I would force majeure my family. Oh, so let's just talk about that for a second.

So for people who don't know, force majeure is the movie that downhill is based on. It is one of the best movies of the decade. And not much of a spoiler because it's in the trailers and I think by now. It's in the culture. I would say 30% of watch fans probably have seen Forks, for sure. There's basically an incident where there is an avalanche coming at a ski lodge. And it's a family of like four sitting there. And as the avalanche is approaching, the father grabs his phone and runs away.

He pieces out. Yeah. And the rest of the movie is being like, why did you do that? Yes. Why did you reveal your true nature? So you saw a lot of yourself in that. Here's the thing, though. What's he going to do?

Well, there's like huddle, you know? like jump in front of the avalanche and take the first round of the snow? Would you Titanic yourself? Would you be like... That's different. Let's all... Well, first of all... Oh, you mean like huddle, like, okay, the porthole is about to break?

I mean, let's be honest. I think we're all everyone... Like, Chris, you would be down Irish folk dancing on the tables. Like, you would be in steerage with your people, like a lusty, you know. Like, that's kind of your vibe. Yeah. And I would be up just like, like, looking, sneering at the, at the orchestra upstairs. You would already be in the escape boat.

I would have bought the... escape boat as my bunk. Do you know what I mean? Like that would have been my whole, that would be the condition for me to get on the boat. Sure. Anyway, not a skier, but respect to everyone who decides a potentially lethal activity is the best thing to pregame for it. Right. So that was that. I think we also should just pour out a little of our morning coffees, or in Kai's case, triple Bloody Mary's for the great DJ and producer Andrew Weatherall. Yeah, for sure. Who passed away over the weekend. People might know stuff from two lone swordsmen. Primal Scream.

Primal Scream. Yeah. I don't know if we should like get crazy and throw up a playlist or something. But there was a moment when we were younger, like in right when we were about to enter high school, I guess, when there was this music coming from the UK that was just open to, it was suddenly open to dance music and dance culture. And he was at the forefront of it and was apparently a lovely guy. Yeah. There's two playlists I have as his. One is like a bunch of his remixes, which when played together, really.

really show like his sort of artistic signature. That's incredible. And then another one that were just some of his favorite records to play out. So I can post both of those on Twitter. That would be amazing. Yeah. He's a great, great, great, great, great, great, producer. Well, speaking of music, let's get into high fidelity then.

Sure. I know you only got a chance to see the premiere. I actually finished the season. Wow. Yeah, because I was like having kind of like a hungover Sunday. And I was just like, let it. Should we investigate this Saturday you had? Well, let's just say.

Wow. I went to a cocktail bar, like, I was speak-easy. Oh. And it was good. Did you dress up? No. Did you wear a vest? No.

But it was good. It was just that, like, the guy at, like, the bartender was just, like, really into describing the drinks, which was fine. Yeah. But, like, he could have just saved himself a lot of ornate language about how many different vermouths he blends. Yeah. And just be, like, this old-fashioned is going to melt your face. No, let's be honest. It is a classy way to overpay for a Long Island ice tea.

Yes. He's like, everything in this glass on its own is alcohol. You know what I mean? That's exactly what he said. That's right. And the thing was he was like, our cocktails, our classics are unlike any others. And I was like, really, what's going on with him? And they were just, he was like, because they all have mescal in them.

Yeah. You know, and so I had. Did you say mescal or mescalin? Mescalin. Yes. Oh. It was like, why is there a donkey on your head, sir? And it was like

One of those drinks where you're just like First sip you're like that's a stiff one And then fourth sip you were like Should I try out for the Dodgers? And then eight sip you're like That was full grain alcohol That was just unprocessed barley Run through a toilet

Night sip you're banging on trash can The morning everyone about the high heat I'm like Al Tubei Listen The slider's coming Let's give An old some older gentleman advice to a younger generation.

Cocktails are great. Enjoy a cocktail. Yeah. But you weren't supposed to have four of them. Yeah. Like that's not the move. Yeah. You were supposed to have like one carefully crafted one, sip it, and then eat some food.

Yes. You know what I mean? No, I only had one and a half. I'm not cautioning you. Yeah, I was an empty stomach and it was like. You've done your time. Yeah. I'm just worried about the youth.

So. So, okay, so you had a whole Sunday to watch. And so Sunday I watched the last five episodes. Hulu dropped the whole season. did, which I thought was interesting. I mean, obviously, the episodes have ranged from about 28 to 34 or 35 minutes. So I think it would have been a little odd to just be like, well, here's two. And then next week, another 25-minute episode.

I do think that there is something about the length of the episodes that lends itself to binging, much in the same way that Fleabag did, much in the same way that some of the comedies on Netflix, like, you know, BoJack or whatever it do. But, man, I just, I wrapped up the second half of the season really well. really fast and I just found it so so delightful and in this amazing combination of some of the more um I don't know whether to say like progressive or inventive or I mean like a lot of the stuff that's in it is stuff that you can see in the movie version that you can see in ferris beeler that you can see in uh any of like the great romantic comedies but there was a sense of place uh there is a

sense of like sureness about the characters in the show. And you can also feel like a very safe pair of hands guiding it. And I talked to Veronica and Sarah about their experiences working on shows like Ugly Betty and State of Affairs and Chicago Fire, I think. And, you know, they've been through the trenches on network shows making 20 episode seasons and guiding, you know, A, B, and C plots and really, like, kind of doing the work. And they got to really play at this one. You know, they were even joking around.

they were like five hours, that was nothing. You know, like, five hours is like March for us. So they were great to talk to. But, you know, I think also this is one of those examples where for as much, as many shows as there are out there, sometimes, you know, no matter how much you might like an actor, you really have to wait for the right role to come along. And I never would have guessed that Zoe Kravitz should play Rob from High Fidelity. I don't think anybody could have said that. But it shows like a different side of.

of her that was obviously always there. This is what I wanted to talk about. And I hate to outsource criticism on this podcast. But our old friend Sam Donsky, who used to write for the ringer, said the Players Tribune now, an MVP at Twitter, tweeted, I think, essentially everything I was going to say in this conversation, which won't stop me from saying it. Okay.

But he said it with more concision. So to quote his tweet, ignore every deconstruction of the new high fidelity's premise that goes any deeper than, quote, you hang out with Zoe Kravitz for half an hour. It's kind of amazing and true. And I was watching it. And my first thought was, like you said, why her, why this show? And also thinking about her just purely from like 10,000 feet, career-wise, why did she choose

to hitch her wagon to this project, which isn't necessarily a short thing, you know, is an adaptation of a 25-year-old book and a now almost 20-year-old movie. Yeah, 2000. That wasn't, and then even past that wasn't a short thing because this was made for. for Disney Plus and then move to Hulu, which makes a lot more sense for everyone. Trying to think about why actress choose roles, et cetera, et cetera. And then I was thinking about my perception of her and her career.

She's someone I've always sort of liked, but why? Why did I like her like her? What was she in that I found her particularly moving or compelling? She's like in Furrow. She's in Big Little Lies. She's like in this stuff. You know, she's going to be in the new Batman movie. I root for her, but based on a perception of her and enjoying having her around.

But honestly, even in Big Little Lies, a show that, you know, I didn't love, but. admire or fine. She's fine in it. But she doesn't have that much to do. And then you're like, oh, you watch this for 10 minutes and you're like, oh yeah. You watch it for like the first time she turns to the camera. You're like, I'm going to watch this whole season. She is a incredibly cool, incredibly charismatic performer who you like, you want to like, and you want to spend time with. And frankly, there aren't that many roles, particularly for actresses, where you just get to do that, where you get to just be not yourself, but an engaging version of what you're

your public perception seems to be and just settle into it, you know? And it was remarkable for a show that isn't rocket science. How, and I mean that as a compliment, how exciting that felt to see someone get the chance to do that. That's why I'm in on the show even after one episode. Yeah, and they do a really good job of, I think that one of the main questions might be like, well, it doesn't feel like the music feels particularly updated in some places, you know, that she seems to be sort of a classicist and like, you know, like. Well, she and I, share an opinion about Tusk being superior to rumor. So I was also doubly in at that point.

I'm waiting for that. Shout it to Jake Lacey, man. That guy's really, really enjoyable. I love how they've kind of, they've background the music a little bit in this one. You know, in the book, it's obviously like this major, major thing that this character Rob is talking about throughout like these, you know, which the top five Elvis Costello songs written between 1980 and 1981 and all the

stuff that's like very, very densely music nerdy. There's a lot of music nerddom in this show, but they use the record store as a bar and cheers or a paper office in Scranton. It's just like they don't overemphasize like what are the mechanics of running a record store in 2020. You know, it's like there are some jokes and questions, but like most of the time when they ask like, how's business? They're like, oh, it's consistent or it's okay. It's like we can stay in business. These three people work here. Full time, apparently.

Yeah, that's right. But just like in the book, it's like they. showed up one day and then wouldn't go home. It's not like this like we have a scaling up plan here. I do think the one thing, and I'll move on from this point because I agree, it doesn't matter. Moving it to New York, that was the only

part of it that pushed credulity for me because I don't know if an unattended vinyl only record store really could exist in New York. In LA, apparently, no problem. There are tons of them. Chicago, sure. That was the one thing that I bumped on. But I think it's interesting too, just for one second to talk about the source

material because there was a interesting, dare I say provocative essay on pitchfork by Jillian Mapes basically being like, we don't need this show. And what the piece was basically, I thought, was an indictment of the politics of the book itself, which is admittedly, and I think Nick Hornby's been doing pretty impressive job of sort of bridging the gap between the book that he's proud of and being very supportive of this new version, is extremely male, an extremely 90s male. And as two 90s males, I think we couldn't speak to that, you know, because it was really about, as we said at the beginning of the show jokingly, defining yourself through what you liked and presenting that as a veneer to the world and, you know, bestowing mixtapes upon people to present your, like you're

recording someone. I mean, that is a culture that I think has hopefully died away in a lot of ways. And the opportunity of the show potentially that they didn't take to do say something similarly about, say something similar about being a woman in the world and your relationship. relationship to things, music, whatever. I think they ultimately made the right choice because I think that would have felt more strained, basically, to use, because I think the vehicle that they chose

to drive away from the original source material in is basically the convention of a romantic comedy built around a certain type of person living a certain type of life. They did not choose to take the bones of the original project as this is a fascinating and now, in retrospect, withering indictment of masculinity and so we're going to do a withering indictment of contemporary femininity.

Right. And I think they made the right choice. No, they talk about a certain kind of person that exists inside and outside of music fandom, which is someone who is kind of hung up on their own past. And I mean, I think... And their own self-definition. And I think I'm guilty of it, especially, I think, you know, a lot of people are where you just sort of like can't get over the things that you've experienced.

And you can't move on in your life because you're too fixated on who you were when you were 19 or 26 or 30, and that's just like, that's something that is a hurdle. And it's a hurdle for Rob in the sense that she is kind of fixated on a series of relationships that went wrong, but especially one, this character, Mac, who we meet. By the way, I would be hung up on that guy too.

Yeah. What a charmer. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think that I have to read the Gillian Mapes article, but. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing.

But I like the way, I like the tone that they chose, and I do think that what you're speaking to is emotionally true. And actually is probably the best thing to shake loose from an older piece of material, this idea of the importance of curating your own life and how ultimately we can't actually have that control, which is, you know, something that generally happens to people at the age that this character is in the show. Yeah. So I'm into it. And I also am into it for the reasons that you said at the top, which is people's viewing habits of change. people's expectations have changed. And I think that Hulu is right to have delivered the show this way. Because this is the way, shout out to Mandalorian, that people want to consume this type of show in 2020.

They want to have it there. They want to be able to just completely devour and dive into it. It's an incredible. It's a great hangover show. So, yeah. Don't drink and binge, folks. Outsider, not a great hangover show. No.

Outsider. Here it's just like, is the ski lodge open yet? Hair of the dog, my guy. So I will say up top with The Outsider, that was probably my least favorite one of the season, which should not be seen as a searing indictment of it. It was more just like, I think you and I, amusingly, have misunderstood how many episodes are in this show more than any show in recorded history. Yes. At least since we've started doing this podcast, somehow we have gone from six to eight to ten down back to eight. Now we're like, oh, yes, it is ten.

It's ten. Yes. So there are still three episodes left. Yes. I just thought that last night, while atmospheric, well-acted, featuring great dialogue here and there, some wonderful scenes, was essentially it could have been five minutes. I want to know more about the real estate opportunities in Cherokee City.

No, I don't even want to joke about it because it's particularly interesting to me to look at shows that are paced and scheduled, you know, set up basically, broken to be 10 episodes. You're going to have some ones that are a little bit, a little bit, but like this, a little bit fileterie. And hopefully they're placed in the season where it makes the most sense to have them, where the people who are watching are invested

and can take pleasure out of what you get and it helps you set up for the next one. This was the first episode where I was like, maybe we should have been eight. But it didn't mean that, you know, I actually liked the way that they take advantage of the extra real estate to do more work on characters who are much more important

than I ever thought they would be, like Jack. Yeah. Or Alec. Yeah. Yes. Or even Glory. You know, these are characters who presented, back when we thought it was a four-episode movie as purely supporting characters. And, you know, certainly once Jack started breaking bad the way that he did, I was like, well, this will be a big death or this will be a big shock or gotcha jump scare or something in episode four or five.

Not the case at all. And so since the show is primarily about sinking into grief and trauma in one place. It's suited to it. Plus, you know, there were some pleasures. Like, I do like Ralph and Alec teaming up because I like those guys together. I did like Holly's Escape, which I thought was cleverly done. Yeah, it's really well staged. And very well staged.

I'm ready for Ralph not to be droopy dog anymore. Well, it's not even like I want him to do a comedy routine as much as it almost feels like... I just want to be stopped being skeptical. He clearly believes all of this stuff. I was actually, like, confused by the why Holly and his wife were getting mad at him because I was like, hasn't he kind of arrived at this moment? Yeah. But, you know, but obviously the clawed, obfuscating the clod stuff, you know.

Yeah, which he had. Also endangered Holly to, you know. And he had not picked up on that. Yeah. I only have one small nitpick. And I wonder if you have an answer to this. Do you remember in the beginning of the episode when Glory calls Howard and at the law office? Oh, yeah.

He's like, can't find a pencil. And he's like, sorry, I blew up at you. What's up? And she's like, I'm, why did she call him? I think she was just Was she just checking in? I think she was like, I'm going to work like telling him she was going

and was checking in and was like, and maybe he was like, do you want to sue? But I don't know why she called him to do that. That was my only point was I feel like, hey, he was like, you called me. Yeah, right.

That's cool. Go to work. Yeah. Yeah, it's still a vibe and a mood though. Yeah, and I think that it'll be fascinating to see what the conclusions of this show are because I feel like it is quite metaphorical.

And in a way that, you know, maybe is, I haven't seen something like this maybe since leftovers where there is a plot and there are like, you know, some sort of fantastical sci-fi almost, you know, horror elements to it. But in the end, it's going to be about, it's a sort of parable about how we deal with loss and grief and how that can spread and how that can also be, I hope, contained. And fear, yeah, right. What, is there a version, and I wonder about this? you know, when you're left idly between scenes.

Think about it. Is there a version of the show that you're, I mean, can this be satisfying if it ends, if the show ends with Ralph shooting the boogeyman dead and thus ending evil in contemporary southern Georgia? I don't know, because so much of this show is about how there's a certain shared mythology that we have. Like, even Alex's story about when I got lost in the woods

and I could have sworn I heard somebody call my name a couple of times, but it wasn't the people who were looking for. for me when he was a kid. So much of this show is about legend and myth and these sort of folkloric tales that have increasingly probably passed out of existence or turned into conspiracy theories or turned into online, you know, red herrings or whatever.

That I wonder whether or not it ends in some kind of way that is in tribute to that. That is like this will be something that touched eight to ten people's lives and that they will never be able to fully explain and no one will ever be able to fully understand and will never really be documented outside of that. One of the things that's been really interesting is with the exception of like one or two bloggers who try to get on the scene, like the lack of media coverage of this scenario.

Oh, right. In the show. It's not like there was a ton of like, hey, so did this guy actually not kill these kids and then was gunned down at a courthouse by a person who then also got was killed like his mother and father died? I appreciate that. Yeah. A lot. But that could have, that would be a pretty sensational story. Yes.

And I wonder, people who have read the book can chime in and let us know about this. I wonder if this is an advantage. I wonder if this is true to the book as well. And is it an advantage of an older writer like Stephen King's telling the story now? He's not checking for that. And so it's a little bit purer and maybe it makes it more anachronistic, but I think that's better. And I think for me, the most enduring moment of the episode,

and it speaks to what you're saying, is that Alex's story in the car about someone calling his name in the darkness. And that's not going to be returned to. That's not what the shows about. I think that was just like, there are these stories. in people's lives. There are these moments in people's lives that are unexplainable. And then this is a tribute to Ben Mendelsohn's performance, which is really a hard part to play. Yes.

Great shirt game, by the way. I feel like we should do a whole podcast on the shirts. So there's just no, there's no like dress code for the Cherokee City PD. Well, he's on leave. Remember, this whole thing is happening for a week. That's how he was hanging out there beforehand. When he gets Terry arrested that he's like wearing his bowling outfit. He's like, what if there was Tommy Bahama but a little bit drab. Yeah, a little bit more khaki. Could you? He's like, and it's not even draft. messed up because that's Thomas Bahama. But could we do like, what is Tommy Akron wearing for this season?

Right, right. Could we just get the ensemble in beige's and browns and just call it a day? Would you like a fitting, sir? Would you like a... No, I'm good. I would like you to take the scissors and cut the cloth and just drape it on my body. Yeah, because you never know. Anyway, all I wanted to say is when Alec tells that story in the car, Mendelson's face where he's just like, don't tell me this. I don't have anything to say to this. What response should I give? And it's just the same look, he gives that chair when he's just like, I guess this is real. This is real. Don't be here. Right.

Because it's just, this is static. I can't make it out. And that idea coupled with that that's the role that impossible grief plays in our life, that you want to push it away because you cannot make sense of it is the show's greatest strength. And that's what keeps us watching. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's get into my interviews with the people behind Narcos Mexico season two.

Talk to Scoot McNary, Eric Newman, and Diego Luna. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with those talks. Great talks, Bransky. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Peroni. Italians know how to live life. Great food, family, celebrating beauty and style around them. What other lessons could we take from the Italians? How about slowing down from our busy lives to enjoy a moment of just being?

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only 2020 imported by Beera Peroni International, Washington, D.C. Well, this is obviously just a casual conversation again with Eric Newman. Thank you so much for coming back on the watchman. One of my favorite interviews we've done talking to you when you came on. That means a lot to me. Yeah. So I have so many questions about this new season of Narcos, Mexico. But I guess the first one I wanted to ask, we're talking, I guess what, like 10 days out before it comes out?

Yeah. What's today? Today is the seventh or the eighth, something like that? I think we're a week out. Week out. You've done this now a few times where it's like now the baby is born but not quite born. What's it like waiting for it to hit? You know, it's kind of horrible, sort of.

You know, like I always, I know I like the show. Yeah. And that's always a nice feeling. I know that I've, you know, I've lived with it now for a long time. And I think it's pretty good. And I probably tend to be harder on it than most people. So I assume that our audience will like it. But there's definitely a, this uncomfortable anticipation, you know,

that I'm waiting for, you know, the reviews are starting to come in. Sure. And I'm going to get all those sort of texts and phone calls of, oh, I watched it in, you know, two days. And then the ones I don't get, you know, which always the ones there is. Conspicuous silence. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, as I, you know, my father, who's a musician, told me that you can get a hundred good reviews,

but the one bad review is the one that really sticks with you. So, you know, it's a, it's a tense time. Yeah. I mean, the thing that I'm most fast. fascinated about with what you're doing is that this is obviously a long-running show. It's obviously got a global audience. A lot of actors have come in and out, a lot of filmmakers. How do you keep it fresh for you? Like, how is it that you're like, you are like, I can't wait to start the campaign again and start this up again? It's a good question. I think the thing that, the two things that

continue to evolve for me, because obviously, you know, recasting and restaffing as we sometimes are forced to do is challenging and it's fun. It's fulfilling. I think we've we've done a good job. Our cat, you know, we'll, you know, we'll lose Pedro Pescal and we'll gain Diego Luga, Luna. You know, Scoot McNary was a fantastic addition. And so that's, I do enjoy, very much enjoy that. I think that for me, the evolving thematics are kind of what I get into, you know, in terms of, you know, what we're saying. an increasingly complicated message. You know, we're now spinning in this season multiple plates because there's a governmental presence

that we haven't really had before, a nefarious government presence. And as we're kind of drawing this thing out, those are the things that I start to get increasingly interested in where by the end of this season, I hope that when these two characters face off in jail and they both lost, you sort of look at the drug, war in the way that I've always sort of seen it as it's not about, you know, good guys,

chasing bad guys. It's so much bigger. And there's such a great betrayal of public trust at the center of it. And so that is always for me part of what keeps it fresh. The other thing is the sort of stylistic influences that, you know, exactly the thing I want to talk to you about. We talked about this last time and Amat coming on. Oh, yeah. And I believe Marcella directed like this. Funched from Marcel C. Incredible documentary feel to it. Yeah. So for us, you know, I, because I was a film producer for so long, I have such respect

for directors. Yeah. I think that, you know, television for a long time was this sort of, you know, and it's still very much as medium for writers. And I'm grateful for that because I get to, you know, I get to sort of create the universe. But the value of a director who can come in and render something in a way, you know, like Alonzo Pallas. Ruiz Palacios or Amada Scalante or Marcella or Andy Bice.

You know, they're all filmmakers. Yeah. And each is, it's granted, it has to be sort of contiguous, you know, creatively. But they each bring something to it. And the influences, the movies that, you know, I ask that everybody in the writer's room watch. Yeah. You know, whether it was, you know, we'll go through Costa Gavris or we'll go through, you know, Jean-Pier Melville.

Dude, I just went through. By the way, how great is that? we can do that. Yeah. What did you watch? Well, I watch Army of Shadows, which I hadn't seen before, but I had just gone through La Circle Rouge. And then I'd seen like Samurai and I think Bobby Gambler, but the later period ones that

are like that much more dense. And that's interesting to hear you bring him up because so much of what I love about Narcos is you'll have these grand themes and you'll have these very important conversations happening in these very important rooms, but there's also a lot of process stuff. Oh, yeah. So like my favorite episode so far that I've seen, I've watched about half the season, some change so far. And this will come out the Monday after so people will get a chance to watch a few episodes. Was the sort of mini Western you guys do with Amato going to Texas? Yeah, with Pablo Acosta.

Yeah. And like, I was like, this is a Western. And that's what I always tell people about the show is. I'm like, you'll be watching. And it's like you got 10 hours and there's obviously this thing that's going to happen. But inside of there, you might get like a comedy of manners or you might get a Western. I that's it's actually that you I'm glad you appreciate that I I uh during season four which is Mexico one I'm I'm for me it's yeah this is you're gonna watch season five you know but they call it Mexico too but you know last season we discovered this book by a guy called Terence Papa called Drug Lord about Pablo Acosta and it's it's one of the best books on the subject and I've probably read all of them or at least close to that at this point yeah

But it's really good because, you know, he's a John Ford character, Pablo Acosta. He is, you know, you think about one of my favorite John Ford movies, The Man of Shot Liberty Valance, which is very much about the end of a certain type of man. You know, the West ends, and you don't need John Wayne anymore. You need Jimmy Stewart to go forward in that story. And John Wayne knows that. You know, actually, it's an incredible movie if you haven't seen it in a while. you know, where he basically recognizes his obsolescence in a way.

And the Pablo Costa story was kind of like that for me, a guy who'd seen the game change and who knew, you know what, like, I'm going to get out. And there's only one way to get out of this game and it's feet first. And so I had a lot of fun with that story. Yeah, it looks like it was a blast to shoot too. Plus you get to do the like, we're going to have like a big Western desert shootout. Yeah.

And like you actually do have almost a quick draw situation. I want to talk a little bit about Scoot's introduction to the ecosystem of the show. Obviously, he is a voice that we hear a long time before we see him. I really dig the intro with the Baja and just like his whole vibe. What was it about Scoot as an actor? He's somebody I've loved since I think I saw him, like when I saw him in Monsters. But when did you start thinking about Walt as Scoot and how much did Scoot influence how Walt was written? I look at sort of evolving, the evolving, you know, the drug lords, which, you know, obviously we've changed.

changed out now, you know, we went from Pablo to Cali to these guys. And, you know, D.EA, you know, obviously we, you know, Boyd left after season two, and then we had Pedro, and then we brought in, you know, Kiki, Michael Pena. Scoot was representative, the character of Walt was representative of sort of a necessary evolution in the kind of, you know, the tactics and strategies and ideology of law enforcement where, okay, that's not working. The problem is, let's take the glove, we need to take the gloves off. You know, they're fighting a war. They're in a war, you know, and we're not. It's time that we get in the war. And Scoot is sort of perfect because you like him, too. Like, you're, he's a, you know, he's a, he's a tougher guy than anyone had given him credit

for previously. So I think seeing him be a hard ass is fun. He's a spectacular actor. But for me, the character is this sort of, you know, all right, now we're getting somewhere. You know, I'm in an action story now. This guy's going to kick ass, which makes his failure all the more. Yeah. You know, it lands even harder where it's like, holy shit, I thought we had it. And you know what? You don't have it. I really also love the way in which like he winds up becoming this sort of sin eater or something like where his obviously is the tip of the spear after Kiki's death to go into Mexico and play the game in a different way. but in the same way, he's got to like take on all of that.

You know, it's like I was thinking a lot about the duality between, because you often set up these kinds of pursuer and pursuant things. But he and Felix both seem to have like this, almost like this abscess that they can't quite fix. And I thought that that was like really, really beautiful this season, how that winds up coming out. Yeah. I know they both, you know, in that final confrontation they have that's almost a mirror. Yeah.

You know, like we both failed. We both thought we had this under control. And what's more, here's what's going to happen. And what's great about the, and I love the scene, the, what he's basically selling, what he's telling Walt is this is going to, this is going to spiral out of control. This is, let me tell you what's going to happen. And Scoot, even though he knows that he's right, he's not going anywhere. You know, he's kind of, there's that great sort of American, stubborn.

ignorant thing of like, you know what, I know that, but I can't, like, I got to, I'm going to continue on the same path. Yeah. He's just like so dogged. Yeah. And Scoot actually, because like, he has that, if he was in like a 70s Gene Hackman movie, you would believe it. He has that look of like, I'm, I'm being driven to this in a way that like is kind of goes beyond it. Oh, no, he's hollow, you know, he's like, you look at him and he thinks something bad happened to that guy. Yeah, right. And as soon as he works on the screen. Yeah. We talk about Gene Hackman all the time. I mean, just because he's he is sort of you know he's i would say in the kind of modern era if it is the modern era i'm old now yeah it's like you know he's my favorite you know he's a guy who kind of you know

his his his sort of Popeye doyle his you know bill uh little bill in in uh unforgiving you know just a guy who you know has seen it all yes you know there's something kind of hard and haunted about him and he's still capable of killing you you know yeah absolutely great And Scoot, I think, you know, nailed it. Yeah. And obviously, like, Diego is probably, you know, now people will, I think, associate Diego as much as they associate Wagner with the show. I think so, right?

Yeah. I mean, I, I, uh, Diego, and I don't, I, we joke, Carlo Bernard and I often joke about how, like, what if we hadn't gotten Diego? What if it was just some guy, you know, just some dude, some Mexican actor who could be great. but like, you know, the fact that you look at Diego and you're like, God, he's cool. Yeah. I love that guy. He also has to do like a very hard job.

Like he is like, he is the vehicle for so much exposition. He has to go in and he has to talk to these governors and he has to talk to these dealers and they have to talk to the plazas. And like it's like a lot of like I am turning it over every day. Scoot gets to run around. No, he's got. And jump in and out of vans and stuff. He's, I love, you know, he, Diego just gets. his ass kicked, you know, metaphorically.

Sure. It's like every episode, he's just dealing with like some guy who's, you know, telling him something he doesn't want to hear, you know. And, you know, it's a management story. I, you know, the movie that we talked about a lot with Diego this season is, Save the Tiger, you know, Jack Lemon. Yeah. Where you're, it's just all falling or it's fallen down around you and you're just

trying to like, you know, you're trying to figure it out and you just, you can't. And there's like almost this weirdly, not complicated. at all, but, like, there's so many scenes where he's like, it's right here. I can fix this and I can make this all better for everybody. And then somebody goes, yeah, but what about Kiki? Yeah, what about this? Yeah. And he's like, fuck, that's the one thing I can't, because it wasn't really his fault in the show.

You know what I mean? And so that he's like, this is this thing that I can't quite reach. That's right. Yeah. So you did mention something really briefly. We can wrap up on this because I don't want to keep you too long. But, like, I was, I think we've talked before about this. idea of how do you get to satisfy the things you want to say thematically with the level of

historical accuracy that you guys strive for. And obviously, like, you guys can take liberties in places, but ultimately what you're trying to create is really authentic experience for people. So you get this season and you're like, you have all the ideas probably on a whiteboard about what the season's about. How does the process go in working with writers and directors to sort of bend reality to that and bend that to reality? I've always seen the things that we know to be true, the things, the recorded history in this story as kind of our fence posts. Like, we know this happens here. We know that, you know, Kiki's abducted. We know that he's killed. Here's where he's found. It's the unspoilable show. Yes. It really, man, it's like, you know,

you can Wikipedia and you can go in knowing all of it. What that does for us, and I think that it's an incredibly healthy exercise, is that it requires us to look at take what we know they did and really explain why they did it and what they were thinking. And, you know, I'm a firm believer. You know, the two principles that I think have guided the show since the beginning are, number one, there are, there's no such thing as good guys and bad guys and really bad guys. Sure. And then the other thing is, I believe that everyone is either the hero or the victim in their own story. No one ever says, you know, I'm the bad guy in this. Sure. And that's the thing that makes the Felix's character is so interesting.

He is, you know, if you were to, if you were here, and I'm glad he's not, but if he were here, he's very old and frail. Apparently, he's very sick. I was told, but, um, but they still won't let him out of jail. Uh, he would have a defensible explanation for why he did what he did and that he wasn't really the bad guy. The, you know, it's the government and it was the cops. and he's to a certain degree right, you know?

Yeah. I mean, doesn't this show basically say it can all be true at once and it can all be a lie at once and it can all be levels of self-delusion? Everything you hear, even the stuff that's contradictory, is true. Yeah, that's right. It's amazing. Well, it goes back to Liberty Valance. It's the print of legend.

That's right. Eric, thank you so much for coming on the watch. We've got to have you on for a non-narcos time just to come hang out. Talk Melville. I love it. Okay. Yeah. Like, I was thinking, like, I could talk about, it would be such a great thing to be able to go watch a bunch of old movies.

Yeah. And then just come sit for, you know, and it might be unusable. Anytime. Anytime. It's the boring thing I've ever heard, but we'd have a good time. Yeah, man. Thank you so much. Great to see you.

Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thank you to Eric Newman for talking with us. We're going to get into my conversation with Scoot McNary. One of my favorite actors, you've seen him in True Detective. You've seen him in killing him softly. you've seen him. I mean, tons and tons of stuff, but Scoot plays a DE agent named Walt in the season two of Narcos Mexico, who's on the tail of Miguel and Hell, Felix Gallardo, played by Diego Luna,

and Walt is sort of the tip of the spear for the DEA's actions in Mexico at the time. And they're basically seeking revenge for what happened in season one of Narcos, Mexico. I don't want to spoil that in case you happen to be listening to this and didn't watch the first season of Narcos Mexico. but we talked a lot about what it was like to shoot this show largely in Mexico City and in around Mexico City and how it was different from a lot of his other experiences. And we also talked a little bit about heat. So let's get into my conversation with Scoot McNary. I'm so happy to be joined by one of actually one of my favorite actors, Scoot McNary, man.

Thank you. I've been such a huge fan since Monsters probably. And surprisingly, your performance with Ben Mendlson and killing him softly comes up a lot around our office. Oh, really? Yeah, just like what... Benny. Yeah. I've really enjoyed this season of Narcos.

And, you know, I was talking with Diego Luna yesterday about it. And he was talking about how this season is starting to catch up with his memories of growing up. And I know that you are from Texas and you guys are probably around the same age. And I was wondering if the same kind of held true for you where some of the stuff, maybe not be explicitly like the Mexico stuff, but it's starting to catch up with your memory. A little bit. More so on the show, not to change subjects, halt and catch fire. Yeah.

You know, that sort of set pieces and the topics that were discussed in that were very, very relevant to my childhood, being that that show takes place in Dallas. Also the creator, one of the creators, Chris Cantwell, was from Dallas as well. So that, you know, it was definitely a blast from the past by seeing different articles and stuff around the house and certain topics that was really relatable. but, you know, more so on Narcos was just, it didn't. It didn't sort of ruffle my past. Also, the character that I was playing was, I felt so far from anyone I'd played or really known. So it was definitely fresh water.

And also a role that's sort of more of an alpha male that was different for me, that I'm, that was, you know, new waters or new territory for me. Did you have to, like, what kind of adjustments did you have to make to play like somebody like that? probably I internalized a lot more thoughts like playing this character of sort of debating of, you know, I don't know if it reads, but there's a lot of me thinking, sort of debating what I was doing was right or wrong, you know, and sort of wrestling with that, professional decisions and personal decisions, meaning like vendettas, you know, for the character and for myself, were things that were really more of a focus for me.

Yeah, so Walt is in, uh, is leading, kind of this DA push in Mexico after the death of Kiki Kamerino, but he's also got a lot of personal motivation that's sort of driving him. And in the meantime, not unlike Felix, I think that there's like these parallels between this sort of

individual versus an institution or institutions and how he kind of like wants to shape things versus what's being told of him. Did you see some like similarities when you were reading the scripts and stuff? I know you only just really got a chance to start seeing the season itself, but between the two of you guys on this like

sort of collision course. Sure, you sort of seen it in the script, the parallels and how they, you know, cut from him to doing one, you know, thing that he's doing and cut to Walt and how the two parallel to each other. But no, I mean, Diego is phenomenal last season. He was really good. So for me, it was more of this guy that has this vendetta professionally to, you know, fight the war on drugs and stop it.

But I think that that's what gets in the way of. Walt is that he also has a personal reason for doing what he's doing. And I think he sort of doesn't, he's struggling with trying to figure out whether this is right or wrong. And that's sort of what inevitably gets him in trouble is sort of that internal debate. And also that Walt is sort of understanding that he's a damaged individual. But throughout the season, you realize that he kind of knows he's damaged, but he's not dealing with it, which I thought was an issue.

interesting dynamic that the writers, the writers. Yeah, and probably very appropriate for like how people dealt with their feelings at that time in like the 80s. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Psychotherapy was not like, I remember growing up, it wasn't like a ton of people I knew when my parents were in therapy, really, you know? And one of the interesting things I learned from talking with the DEA in Los Angeles was that, you know, there's programs in the DEA for DEA agents that get hooked on drugs. Yeah. You know, alcoholic tendencies or problems. And, and so, you know, as much as this guy's DEA, they have so many internal burdens and actions that they, you know, that a DEA agent, and I wouldn't think, you know, you think that they're sort of clean-cut law enforcement by the book.

But no, and especially back in the 80s, they were just a rogue sort of group of guys with an agency that really hadn't gotten the credibility of the CIA or the FBI. Yeah, this is an interaction you have of those FBI agents where they're just kind of like mocking you and being like, you know, like a can't do what you did. and stuff like that, because you guys are still like, the DA was like just emerging at that time. Yeah, and I think Gigi Cameron's execution was really what sort of put the DEA on the map as a respectable agency. And so we're seeing the sort of the birth of that

through the show. I wanted to ask a little bit about some of the places you guys shot because honestly, like one of my favorite things about watching this show is I just feel like it's in different, it's in places that you just don't ever see in movies and television that often. And as an actor, when you get taken,

I mean, for all I know you guys could have shot all of this in San Bernardino, but it certainly feels very authentic. Like, you're just moving all the time in this, man. Like, what's that like for your performance, but also, like, what's it, like, physically and personally, like, when you're just, like, always on the run like that? Personally, it was amazing. I love, you know, very similar to the movie monsters that we did that we were on the move. Godless, same production in these sort of really tough remote locations to get to.

I love it. It's one of my favorite things about the... doing what I do is that you get to go places that you could ever ever book a vacation to some of the places you wouldn't want to yeah but I love that about about this show is that we did travel a lot we did go a lot of locations we went to some really sort of sketchy and tough locations and also some really beautiful ones too but on the move it definitely gave you that sort of feeling that you were a DEA agent you know in these really remote bizarre locations but for me personally as far as the war

or anything like that. No, it was just exciting to constantly be changing your location and your scenery and, you know, new cast members coming in all the time. Yeah, and working with different filmmakers. Like I really love Amat Escalante's stuff. Oh, yeah. And so what was he like to work with? I kind of just, like, curious about this dude.

So bizarre. Amat made a movie called Hellie. Yes. And it's, you know, you watch that movie and you think, I'm hesitant to meet this guy. And then you meet Amat. And he's like the sweetest, nicest guy you've ever. ever met, really calm, very soft-spoken, incredible filmmaker. And you do sort of look at him and you

think, wow, how did that violent, bizarre, crazy story come out of this guy? Yeah. You know, but yeah, he's I mean, all the directors, Andy Baez, incredible filmmaker, you know, just all the guys that came in to direct the show were fantastic. Even our second unit director, Leo, I mean, phenomenal. So you've worked on a couple of these, like, sort of long-form television. television shows, whether I guess Godless would almost be a mini-series, but True D and Hall and this. Does this have a specific like running gun style? Like how did the production work? Because it always feels kind of like it's on the run like that.

Is there a feeling of like we're going to show up and like, hey, we found Choppos warehouse? This is where like here we are. Or like is it a little bit more like Hollywood Sheenbine? No, it's definitely not Hollywood Sheen vibe. I would say to me it felt like, you know, I did a. ton of independent movies that had like a lower budget and less resources growing up in my career. This job felt like we were still making those movies, but we had a plethora of money. Right. It was like making an $80 million independent film where you could do a lot of the

things you can't do in America. Right. You know, and like the rules were sort of bent down there and therefore made you feel like you were on an independent production where those are the things you can do. One of the things are probably getting trouble for telling this is that they don't use sugar glass. Oh. They just throw a piece of glass in there. They just break the glass. And one of my first days was I was working with an actor and we broke the glass.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize they hadn't put the sugar glass in. Yeah. And then they put it in and then we broke the window again. And I realized, oh my gosh, they forgot to put the shoe. And then I realized they're not, they don't have sugar glass. Is that the mirror? When you crashed the mirror scene?

No, the, in the window in the pilot. You know what I mean? And Verdeen, the actor that was playing him, got glass in his eye. a little bit, you know, he was okay. And I just thought, oh my God, like he got glass in his eye. And I realized that, no, I had to break another real window on him. Yeah, well, then you beat the shit out of him for like an hour. Yeah, man, that guy was a trooper.

A trooper. So one of my favorite moments is when your character is being sort of stalk, Walt's being sort of stalked by a Mexican police officer in Texas while he's away, basically on leave for a weekend. And you guys have this confrontation at a bar. and the guy said, you say to him, like, what are you following me for?

What are you doing here? The guy's like, I'm a big Astros fan. Yeah. And Walt knows, he goes, Astros are in St. Louis this weekend. And I thought it was hilarious

to imagine Walt, like, keeping track of where the Stroes were, like, whether they were in town or not. Walt's not really a sports guy. But I think that it speaks to, Narcos has like these moments of humor

or these moments of absurdity that I always really liked. As a viewer of the show, did you pick up on that before? It was different when you were on it? No, not necessarily. Picking up on those smaller things. Yeah, there's like little, you know, those things mostly come together. No, you don't really see them in the script when you're doing them.

I love the thing in the first episode of this season of, you know, you see Diego, for instance, sitting there pondering, and then all of a sudden a tiger walks past, you know what I mean? It's those little moments, I think, that's sort of more. apparent in the edit than they are necessarily on the day. Yeah. Yeah, I was asking Diego what it was like to just carry this much footage. And the same thing goes

for you because you're like, you're the other half of this show, but to simply be delivering this much information and taking in this much information, how does like a role like this differ to something like True Detective, where obviously, I think you were guys who probably in Arkansas for forever, but you have

like a smaller role. Like when you're really moving the ball all the time on a show like Well, luckily this is more of a, I mean, Diego is our guy, but I mean, it's more of an ensemble. For sure, and there's, you know, people forget there's four storylines going on. So there isn't that, I mean, as much as, you know, me and Diego share a lot of screen time together, there wasn't a lot of, they still had the Chapo story to sell, the Amano Carrillo Fuentes story to tell. So you never really felt like it was, I mean, five days a week, 14-hour days, you always got at least. a day off during the week for, you know, them to go shoot other storylines and whatnot.

So it didn't feel like it did on Hall and Catch Fire where we were there at the studio, the whole cast, just about every single day of the week. Yeah. You know, or that was like, which most shows are, you know. So I haven't had that experience again of just feeling incredibly exhausted and tired by the weekends. You definitely got some time to recoup on this one. Did you, chronologically, you could, You got, you did like what True Detective then once then this?

Or what was the, how did that work? The people from True Detective and the producers were incredibly great to me during the shooting of that. And they allowed me to leave. I got clearance to leave to go do once upon a time during the shooting of that. As well as the last episode of first season, Narcos Mexico. That was also during the shooting of True Detective. And so it was amazing that they even let me leave for two different jobs.

And then the voiceover, obviously, for Narcos happen when I finished. So when you did the voiceover, I can't think of another. I'm sure that there is an example, but I couldn't think of another time where someone was such a big character in a season of a show without seeing their face yet. I mean, I guess like the Mandalorian or something, but like, you know, like, you actually see his body. But like, in some ways, like you have, you guys, we know Walt before he shows up. Yeah, that was like a huge advantage for me is, sitting down in that recordings studio for three weeks

or two and a half weeks doing the voiceover is that there was a lot of talk about the voiceover and the tone and the cadence and Walt's opinions. So I was lucky enough to be able to have the ability to sort of discover the character or figure him out with the producers in the room through the voiceover. So that when I did get there for second season, there wasn't like, all right, what am I doing?

Or who is this guy? You had definitely a real sense of familiarity with the character. Which was great, because I feel like with this guy, it's definitely something sort of new for me that I would have felt a lot more lost going into it than I did having had done the voiceover. It's weird, too, those voiceovers almost are like, they're like a third person like Raymond Chandler narration. You know, like it gives the character this different shade because it's like, it's like God-eye perspective almost. I owe all that to, you know, the producers, Doug, Carlo, Eric. Yeah. They thread that voiceover.

It's not like you just lay it down. I mean, we went through it and combed through it, redid stuff all the time, re-recorded stuff. So they're very, you know, I give that credit to them. They're very, very, very specific about that voiceover and what's sad. And sometimes they rewrite it and come back in and want to redo it and try stuff. So if the voiceover turned out good, I can't take that much credit for it. But it is actually also.

It seems like that would be like a crash course in like Mexican. in socioeconomic history. For sure. And as much as I tried to like learn about the PRI and the guy's names, and I tried and tried. And, you know, it's just so deeply rooted that you, you know, it just feels like having not had grown up there, it's so hard to figure out the inner work scenes of that government.

Yeah. But also, like, you see those scenes when they're finished and you're like, oh, they're like, this is happening again. Like, this is happening again here or in Mexico. Like, you can just see, like, the way that they weave that stuff through, aside from the fact that obviously the drug war is like one of the most consequential things that have happened in either country for the last 50 years

but you also see like oh the way history is repeating itself that's what I one of my favorite things about the show I was a fan of the show before I was able to come on it and I love that part about it is it gives you a history lesson and not only that it it shows stock footage yeah of what actually took place so it gives you a sense of this is what was going on in Mexico you see the real footage of it. And then this is what was taking place with the, you know, the drug war or the narcos. And I love how they sort of incorporate the two of the time period to, for the audience member or the viewer to understand what was happening here in real life and what was going on

over here, which is sort of based on true events. Yeah. Without giving too much away for folks having finished the season or anything, like, I have some favorite moments for you, but what were some of your favorite moments to film this season? It's so hard for me to say There's a sense of freedom that we have shooting this show That I just love coming to work Every day and like the different locations

And different filmmakers And they all had such great ideas and stuff That I can't really One specific moment You know that comes to mind It's more of like mistakes Or flaws But I don't know

I just had a really good time coming to work with these guys every day, also the cast as well, but the filmmakers and stuff that it was a, you felt like it was a collaborative, really collaborative process. It's cool, I mean, you have a crew in this movie, in the show. Yeah. You get to have, like, a crew of guys and, like, your Greek chorus, you know?

We worked so well together. I mean, like, you know, as far as, like, supporting each other, but also giving each other sort of, not notes, but a little bit notes, and it was, the guys really bonded really quickly, and that's not always usually the case. I mean, we all, all the DEA guys, we hung out,

outside of work almost every night. So we were actually really a tight group of guys that spent a lot of time together at work and not at work. So where did you mostly shoot? I was based at a Mexico City, did a lot of shooting in San Luis Porto C on the outskirts. But I mean, on this show, whether you land in Porto Vallarta or San Luis Porto C, you're still driving two, three hours to work every morning, two to three hours at home at the end of the day.

A lot of time for podcasts. A lot of travel. Even in when we were Mexico City, basically almost every day, except for the DEA safe house, was about an hour and a half drive outside the city and an hour and a half drive back. And obviously we couldn't stay in some of these locations

because they weren't safe. And so they had to drive us out there and then drive us back. When I talked to Eric a little bit yesterday, he was talking about some of the stuff that he had screened for the writers and for the crew as they were going into this season, like the Jean-Pier Melville movies

and just kind of like the vibe he wanted. I wasn't sure whether he showed you anything or you guys had talked about reference points either for your performance. He brought up Gene Hackman a lot and just kind of like this guy on this Popeye Doyle kind of run here. The funny thing is what I

hear the most sort of talk of something that's parallel or relative to this is heat. You know, Carlo worked for Michael Mann during the shooting of that. I think he was his assistant. And so, and it's one of my favorite movies.

We've done, so we have this podcast here called The Rewatchables. And we've done, we did, the heat was the first one we did, where it's basically just talk about the movie for like an hour and a half. And it means so much to us that we just did it again recently.

Yeah. It's still one of the greatest bank robbery films ever made and it still holds up. And so that being said, I'm always, you know, I'll say things like, is this kind of like the part in heat when this happens?

And 90% of the time, the answer is yes, it's kind of like that. That's what we were thinking. You know? And so, I don't know. I mean, those reference, I mean, it was such a great movie. So, you know, if you're going to reference heat, then I'm like, okay, I mean, it's a, you're very clear on what they're going for because that movie is, I've seen it over, you know, 30, 40 times. I mean, it's got that, Narcos has that kind of both epic sweep and, like, really weird granular detail.

You know what I mean? Where it's like, you can see this guy's station wagon, but you could also see, like, the entire cityscape. And, like, that's what makes heat so amazing, right? Yeah, yeah. It's just like those guys down on like Centinella. And the realism from that, it really felt like these were just four random rogue dudes that were robin banks, you know what I mean?

And it was so realistic how they were doing it. It wasn't like a shootout, you know what I mean? They never got to that, but that was never their plans. Yeah. When we did the research for that, I mean, it's not that big of a secret. It was like they did, of like the 85 locations in heat only 11 had ever been in the movies before.

for. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. So it's like, that's why when you see like this taco spot or whatever BJs that Alvarado is supposed to be, it's like no one's ever made a movie there, you know, and that's kind of like the show. It's like, I've never seen a fucking show that's just like running through the back alleys of the street like this. Which was fun about True Detective is that Fayetteville, Arkansas is not a place that has a lot of production or close to any. So that was cool about that show, is that the authenticity that it gave it from those locations was that you had never really seen that before. Yeah.

I fucking loved True Detective this season. I really liked it, man. And I was curious whether or not, how participatory do you get in the, like, fandom and viewing of the stuff you make? Are you trying to, like, just be, I got to have a firewall there, or do you like... That's, you know, that's a good question. I haven't seen True Detective. Okay.

I don't not watch what I do because. I hate watching myself on camera, although I do hate watching myself, but more so it's less of exciting to me. And if I have time to sit down and watch something, I usually want to watch something that's really fresh that I know anything about. And having read through everything and knowing the story, you know, I'm usually, if I have the time to watch something, I'm, just watch heat again. Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, Wonderboys or some classic that I watch over and over. I'm usually not running out to see something. I already have read the story, know everything about it. So all the set pieces, it's less as exciting to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting.

It's like obviously Narcos has like this huge global fandom, but True Detective has a very specific kind of person who's like, uh, like very invested in the mystery of that show, you know? Yeah. And I find myself getting caught up in it too. You're just like, I want this to be satanic panic and then also like the yellow king coming out of the side of the mountain here. And that's Nick, man. He's just, you know, you read his dialogue and you're like, this isn't how people talk. And then once you get underneath it, you find the realism on how realistic that is, how people talk, which is a testament to his writing. He's a really an incredible writer. And, you know, I always got frustrated with the scenes. And then, you know, once I sort of got

underneath them, fell in love with them and just thought that they were brilliant. Yeah. But like what you're saying about Fayetteville's true. It's like that brought such like an authenticity to that, to that season. That was so cool. All right, man. Well, I don't have any more questions. I really appreciate you coming by. Hey, man. Thank you so much for having me on the show. And congratulations with everything that's going on. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's huge.

All right. All right, thank you to Scoot McNary for chatting with us. And now my conversation with the star of Narcos Mexico season two, Diego Luna, who plays Miguel and Hal Felix Skyrido. Diego Luna, welcome to the Watch podcast. I'm really so excited to talk to you about Narcos. I've been talking to Eric a little earlier. How are you feeling?

Like, this is the moment when you're done, you're talking about it, but the show has yet to come out. And it's like this pregnant pause before everybody gets to see it. How does it feel on the precipice of the new season? Well, yeah, the thing is for me, this ended months ago. Yeah. And I started to have better nights. You know, I started to sleep better.

Yeah. And I didn't have to, I don't have to lie that much to my kids, you know. Yeah. Because every time they ask me, what show am I doing? I simplify it so much that it's almost a lie. What's like the garden variety explanation you give for it? Oh, it's a show about Mexico in the 80s. Yeah.

Yeah, it's another. And then I say like, it's another Netflix show. But obviously for them, a Netflix show, I mean, is troll hunters or three below. And anyway, we'll have to handle this. The day will come when they are going to watch it, obviously. And I'll be able to discuss it with them, but they're too young. Yeah. But it is interesting to get some distance and come back to the idea and to the story and to talk about it.

Because I think it would be very difficult to do this right after shooting. Yeah. Because it is very heavy material. And understanding and portraying a character like these deserves a lot of effort in terms of not judging him, you know, in terms of finding out what are those things that trigger the decisions these characters. this character makes. Yes. You have to understand them and you have to believe in them and somehow find a connection

with the role, you know? Yeah. And that's an interesting part of my job. Well, I bet I would imagine some of this is time spent, right? Like, is this the role that you've spent the most time playing at this point? Definitely. Yeah. I would say yes.

Yes, yes, yes. It's been two years on something of my life. And a lot of research had to be done. And also I'm talking about a Mexico I experienced. It's getting really close, right? This season ends in the beginning of the 90s, the end of the 80s. So it is the events that we see in this season. I live through those events.

I was there in the earthquake. I was there in that election, 88. I remember what happened. I remember the characters. Many of them are still around. Sure. you know, in very important positions also. Yeah.

So it is very personal in many ways, you know? Yeah. And at the same time, I have to create some distance in order to play this role without, again, without being judging him at all, you know? The thing that I find so fascinating about Felix as a character is you can see, this is a character that's really aware of how he's being perceived. People are always telling Felix, you think you're this, but you're this.

You think you can have this, but you can't because of what happened before. And I was wondering if as a performer, because a performance is an act of like, you know, you're trying to ask people to say, like, I want you to perceive this person that way. But how do you tap into Felix when the character himself is always being told this is who you are, this is who you are, and this is what you will be? Well, to be honest, I had a lot of freedom in terms of the real character is a very discreet person, you know. There's not much information about him in terms of like photographs, videos, stuff where you can see him. So I had room there. And it is it is a character that is blamed for many things, many, many things, you know. And what I like about the story is that you realize he's part of a system.

He's another piece in the puzzle. But there's so many others, you know, that don't. get the blame. There's a, uh, a structure, uh, where corruption is everywhere, you know, and, uh, and, and, and, and you needed people from the government involved and you need people from the police and the military in both sides of the border for something like this to happen. The banks have to contribute that you see. So there is an amazing part where you're like, if I pull my money from your bank, economy collapses. Yeah. Exactly. So, so my point is that, uh, there's always these characters that we,

tend to blame for everything we're living and to simplify something that is really difficult for us to understand. And what this series reminds you is like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not as simple as that. It's not good people chasing bad people. It's many victims because I think what you end up learning at the end of the season without spoilers is that somehow they're all victims. Yeah.

These both sides are kind of serving the same system, you know? Sure. I imagine that doing this much time with one show, two years with one show, part of the fun is getting to work with a bunch of different filmmakers. I'm a huge Amma Escalante fan. Oh, you are? Yeah, Helly is like, I think Heli was incredible. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what it was like over these last two seasons,

but especially for Part 2 to work with this variety of different filmmakers. And it seems like you guys also get to make little movies within the season. You know, like there's different styles. There's different genres being executed. What was that experience like? It's amazing. I met people. I didn't know. Like Andy Weiss, for example, fantastic director and a really good friend now. And I also got to work with directors I know, I admire, and probably I would never have an opportunity to do a film with them, you know. Yeah. Till the last film, Ahmad was working just with people, real people, you know, no actors. And I love his cinema. And we're really good.

like we get along pretty well and I produced a short film he did but it was amazing that through Narcos I could work with all these talented directors and and not just directors because to be honest I think in terms of casting for example we have probably the best if not many of the best actors and actresses in my country you know and we have a like everyone were working behind the camera is the people I've been doing films for my whole life. That's so cool. So it is really exciting to make sure that all this talent gets an opportunity to to show what they're capable of around the world in a show like this that is so popular.

Yeah. So like the previous season, you know, the work of Tenochuaeta playing caro or, or my memories are starting to, yeah, to my, so many. years of learning lines now it's punishing yeah yeah um joaquin cosillo who plays donneto it's an actor i admire so much i love the the prison scene between you guys when you go with to him is so great yeah it is it is an amazing actor and and i'm so glad what's happening to his career i mean gladly it's happening finally because i know his potential since ever you know since i was a kid you know and i saw him for the first time i was like who's that guy and now look look at him he's doing amazing stuff all around the world. Yeah. So anyway, I think the, the, yeah, Narcos is a great,

it's a great opportunity for many and I'm glad they're doing it with disrespect, you know, in terms of of being authentic, going to our country to shoot it there where things happened. Yeah. In real locations and that I have to blame Eric for and Netflix. It's like they're taking the chance of actually doing it right. Yeah. And I think it's changing the way people is approaching, yeah, filmmaking on a way. Now you can use Narcos as an example on how important is to be specific, how important is to be authentic, you know, if you're going to tell this story, you need to tell it

in Spanish. In this way, yeah, man. The characters have to speak Spanish, right? You're not going to have someone speaking in English with a weird accent saying, oh, that's a different language. Yeah, you can't have Sean Conry pretending to be Russian like 100th or October. Exactly. So it is and now others are having to do it. Yeah. Because now I remember so many times selling projects and getting an answer of like, well, the problem is if that was in English, we would be getting to a different market.

And today you go like, no. Yeah. You know, that market doesn't exist anymore. audiences want to be challenged. Audiences care about that authenticity, and they respect that, and they look for that. Yeah. Well, it's not a show that insults people's intelligence. Because it's like you're basically asking the audience

to go on this now 20-hour story journey to be able to follow. You have to do so much, like, walking into rooms and having these dense conversations about political corruption, economic ups and downs, and you're managing all these different plazas, and you're doing so much. And you, you know, you guys count on the audience to keep up.

The pace is like pretty rapid. But it's, I think you guys really made something really special because of that. I think the perspective of Eric Newman is important, you know. I think the show, if the show was just done by Mexicans, it would be very different. But it's like the perspective of someone that is finding out all of these information. And probably finding the amusement we don't find any more, you know. Yeah. We're not surprised by this anymore.

So we're seeing it like and audiences see something different on that side of the border and this one, you know. And it's interesting because at the end, what the series is doing is bringing people together into a debate that it has to be global, you know. We can't be talking about an issue of Mexico or of Colombia or like this is a global issue. And it's not until we all feel part of the problem that. we can be part of that solution. That's awesome. All right. Well, Diego, thank you so much for joining us, man.

Thank you.