The Watch - ‘The Last of Us’ Episode 2. Plus, Apple TV’s Marketing Strategy and Netflix Is Ready for Another ‘Squid Game.’

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about a new Apple TV+ commercial featuring Timothée Chalamet that is pushing the service's upcoming slate of shows (1:00). Then, they discuss an interview with the new co-CEOs of Netflix, Ted Sarandos and Greg Peters, about what they want the streamer's new global strategy to look like (15:16) before breaking down the second episode of ‘The Last of Us’ (31:02). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. Joining me in the studio on the long way to the state house, it's Andy Greenwood! This feels weird. It feels good, but it feels weird. It's our first in-person, just the gang, just you, me and Kaya, in three years? Yeah, so we, I remember doing a pod with you in my house. Yeah, but we didn't even record that.

Like the first week of. That was just called friendship. Pandemic. And I think you came over. You were like, we, podcasters can't give this to one another. And you just came over to my house. I came over. I set up on your table.

We had a nice time. We were like, we can do this right. And then your wife came in and looked at me like I had mushroom fungus growing out of my throat. And then I never saw the inside of your house again. Andy, it's great to see you. It's great to see. Kaya, thank you for trekking in from the beach today. It's just a short 20-minute drive.

That's it. We're going to talk about The Last of Us episode two, which aired last night. I wanted to hit a couple of Hollywood news and notes, as I always do on a Monday. Because this Monday is all about business and Thursday is all about fun. That's what we've established. Yeah, we do podcasting on the Mollett schedule. Can I ask on behalf of the dozens of people who listen to the show? Okay.

Are you going to keep your commitment to doing Chernobyl Megapod on Thursday? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Did you... Just because I didn't watch the second episode of Nightcourt, suddenly you think I'm flighty. When it comes to watching a critically adored

four-year-old five-episode miniseries, I always... You always come through in a clutch. I always come through. I wanted to ask you about a couple of things before we get to The Last of Us. It's great. Yeah. You and I spent some time this weekend,

I would say, conservatively, nine hours watching football this weekend, so that was a majority of what I took down. Yeah. We even watched some together. We did. We watched probably the most boring of the four games. Disagree. Yeah. By far the most compelling game. It was a very entertaining game, but it was definitely the least dramatic. And for what it's worth, having listened to all of the ringer content about that game, and I think I heard the word Eagles said twice and once was about the band.

We're going to spend the last 40 minutes of this podcast just talking about how Brian Dayball is the next Bill Walsh. The Eagle secondary, but please go on. One of the things that's sort of fun when sports gets very high profile when the national games become the only games is just checking out the ads. Love ads. And this will be the case for the Oscars. The nominations come out tomorrow and, you know,

Super Bowl, big ads, big ad time. Have you seen the Timmy Salome ad? Yeah. For Apple TV. So I have a couple of questions about this. This strikes me as the inversion of the Nicole Kidman AMC ad, whereas that is a television star doing an ad for the sustaining of movies.

Uh-huh. This is a movie star doing an ad for a streaming service. Yes. Largely, I would say, probably 60, 48 TV streaming service. Yeah. A TV service that won the Best Picture Oscar last year, but yes. Talk me through how Tim Dog winds up in this ad. I think it goes like this.

I think Tim Cook calls, and he's like, my guy, one Tim to another. So it's Tim to Tim to Tim. It's Tim to Tim communication. It's beyond peer to peer. It's Tim to Tim. Our buddy Tim Simon's sitting, sadly, by a rotary telephone. Tim Oliphant wearing a cowboy hat. It's not working.

In the Zoom. And I think he's like, we'd love for you to come hang out and do a commercial for our service. And he's like, okay. And then Tim Cook says, we will also pay you $2 million and give you early access to the iPhone 19. Do you think Shalame is like an early adopter like that? I think for sure. Well, no, I just, there are. companies that I guess my point is Apple like 10 years ago I think people would just go out of their

way to do things for. I don't know if that's still the case, but clearly it is. And I don't know what it is. Does it also potentially pretend some business that they're already in together? There's some, I'm sure. Some like Shalame on Shalame where Tim and Pauline like just interview each other. It's like Lopez v. Lopez. That's right. Like there must be some other business. Yeah, I'm sure there is a Timothy Shalamee movie or series to come. Or is there a Shalamee? Salomey single. I'm sure they have his own shingle at Apple. I'm sure post-Dune there will be a

Shalami shingle. Post-Dune and post-Wonca. Wonka coming. Shalameh's like, what I really want to do is produce, but I got to be all in. Unlike these other actors, I am going to be doing all the meetings myself.

It's right. Okay. Yeah, I thought, but here's the other, you're burying the lead. Which is what? The ad is charming. Oh, the ad's delightful.

Did you see the ad? No, I have it. I think I've seen like little snippets of it in Twitter, but I haven't like really, dove in yet? It's basically a very, in case people don't know what we're talking about, there's a Timothy Shalamey Apple TV ad that is, seems almost like it could be shot by Wes Anderson or Luca Guadagino,

but like it looks great. I think they both took passes on it and they used some of their footage. Yeah, and they have basically Timothy Shalame in various states of excess, like where he's like being followed by the paparazzi or he's hanging out in like an Italian villa or whatever and he keeps longingly looking at Apple TV. streaming product. And then Jason Mamoa calls him on FaceTime. It's like, Timmy, I just finished my series.

And Timothy Shalami is like, oh, I'd do a series. I want a series. So it's cute. It's really cute. But it's also like, it strikes me as a, interesting that, like, somebody who is not currently on Apple agreed to do that. B, it is a real, like, it's not TV, it's HBO. This is actually a good segue. Because we didn't mention, last week we were talking about some of the, you and I were talking on our private pod that we do.

sorry, Kai. About like the, there were a couple Apple trailers that dropped. And I do think that Apple's strategy broadly is we are not a TV channel. We are not a streaming service.

We are still a complete lifestyle company that you use all the time. And so it's different. It's not like you're shilling for peacock. You're part of the larger ecosystem. But I think the main thing is that it was a... Has anyone shilled for peacock? Enjoyable.

Has anyone... I show for Peacock. Yes, Kaya does. We are sitting in a room with Peacock's number one fan and subscriber. But do you think that like, if Peacock asked you to do a shallomé-esque ad?

Yes. Yeah, just straight up. Yeah. Like, I appreciate some money, but like, that's not super necessary. Yeah. She's already there. Yeah.

What, did you watch the trailer, Chris, for the upcoming Jason Siegel, Harrison Ford, two-hander shrinking? I did, yeah. This to me is like, that is what they want to make. I'm not even doing a quality

check on it because it might be good, it might be bad. But, like, that trailer was just a distillation of everything I've heard people say in hashtag this town about what Apple wants. Can you bullet point that? Is that like life-affirming content? Yes, it is star-heavy in that, like, this seems like a very- Indiana Jones is, like, the third lead in this show. It's, like, bizarrely so.

This does not seem like they were like, you know, you know, this part of the therapist dealing with grief, it just screams Harry Ford. You know what I mean? They're like, let's get him. Let's get this legendary ornery 80-year-old to wear a fedora and talk about grief. That doesn't seem like the move. It was just more like, yeah, we want to just throw stars at every possible opening in this. And then the larger theme is, we're going to make you feel better in some quirky ways. Yeah. That is kind of what they want to do. And then also what they want to do is, can I segue to one other Apple TV piece of news? Of course. You guys know that I pour over the trades every morning.

You know, I am just, I'm in the trenches here. I go, I breakfast at the ivy. Yeah. You know, and I just pick up. I just listen. I listen to what being set at the other table. So I have to say that when something came across my transom today, that may be the show most made for me.

Like, oh, I know what this is. So this is an Apple thing. And Apple has been, for the most part, being like Jason Momoa, would you like us to spend $300 million on a show called God of War where you live in Hawaii for a year? He's like, I guess, twist my arm. That's generally been their thing.

But they rarely have been picking up international co-pros, like AMC does, for example. They made an exception. They made an exception for a show called Drops of God. And this is a French-created show set in the world of fine wine based on a Japanese manga. That seems like it's like your...

Taylor Sheridan show. I convulsed just now saying those words in that order. I've never been more excited about a television show. The creator wrote on Call My Agent, a show we love. It is about, it's set in the world of gastronomy and fine wines. I mean, who would ever thought to have combined those two flavors? A creator of a famous wine guide passes away in Tokyo. And then he leaves behind a daughter who hasn't seen her father since her parents separated.

she flies to Tokyo and discovers that her father has left her an extraordinary wine collection. Again, out of left field. Who would have thought that the world's greatest wine expert would have left his child? A couple bottles. Some decent bottles. But wait, to claim the inheritance, she must compete with a brilliant, brilliant young wine mind who her father took under his wing and is referred to in Lige's will at her father. Eric, I'm already very intimate with him, as his, quote, spiritual son.

but is his connection to this young Japanese man only spiritual? What do you think? What does that mean? I don't know. Were they lovers? Did they just swirl and spit together? But like, I mean, if it's his, is it only his spiritual son or did he have a lover in Japan and have a son a long time ago? I'm just reporting the news here.

This is just what everybody was talking about. So where's the life affirming? Over their grapefruits at the Ivy this morning. Yeah. Where does life affirming part happen? Look at my face right now. I have never felt more alive in the last five years of television podcast. than I have about drops of God.

I think sometimes these kinds of shows that are seemingly made in a lab for you are the ones that disappoint the hardest. You know? How dare you? You know, that's the same can be said of big-ticket wines. Is that true? Sure, yeah. Like you spend a lot of money on it and maybe it's just, it doesn't live up to your expectations.

Maybe it may be more humble table wine for food, friends, and family. What do you think? I don't know how to get back to Apple from this. This is Apple. They also did it. It's a trailer for that show Hello Tomorrow with Billy Cruttop. Yeah. Which has been in production for a long time, right?

Like that seems, I feel like that's been a long, just-eating thing. No, I think just in the scheme of like they were writing it two years ago. Okay. There was a lot of effects. But very promising. You know, it's a live action kind of Jetson, death of a salesman in the Jetsons universe kind of conceit. That's quite a pitch. Yeah, right?

Yeah. It's a good pitch. And Billy Crudef is always amazing. Jetsons and Death of a Salesman, two things that I think are on the minds of most Americans these days. You know. When they get over their anger about the gas stoves, I think they might realize. Do they have gas stoves in Hello, tomorrow? I think they don't.

I think they don't. Which is why it's probably a better tomorrow. I just thought the branding was interesting because one of the things that's so interesting, not he's interesting twice, but one of the things that I think has been dictated by Netflix is this kind of, we're a tech company, we don't have to sell ourselves. We do our own selling. And I think I would even say this about Netflix's promotional muscle. It's like, yes, for Stranger Things, they are on the Super Bowl, and they are on billboards, and they're on bus stops, and there's activations and stranger things experiential kind of things you can go do.

But then, you know, we always talk about how you'll wake up one day and it's just like, oh, that show came out on Netflix. That show that I vaguely knew about because we do read The Hollywood Reporter and Vulture and things every day and find out about what's in production. But most people, probably one of the reasons why 1899 didn't maybe pop off was because no one knew it existed.

But I think that goes up and down their slate. Like the show we talked about last week, the Makanae by Koriata, the Japanese filmmaker. I know probably the Netflix-U-S-team doesn't think there's a huge audience for that. Oh, they'd be wrong. But there is an audience. And I think that that audience, if there, maybe they'll be, like if you've been watching a lot of food shows or foreign language television, I imagine the algorithm will serve you that show.

Right. But Netflix's strategy continues to be like, we're just a very deep ocean. And you know where the ocean is and you're going to come to the beach. So there'll be stuff here. But you and I, I don't know whether this is us responding to effective marketing or we're just old school people that when Apple is like, hang out. Look at all the cool stuff we have. And Timmy Salomey's here too. Or every night on Sundays, if we tune into Last of Us and HBO does its little flex.

I still respond to that. I respond to it too. Like there's a lot, you know, winning times coming back. I like that show. Like, has there ever been an Amazon Prime ad? I think they do. I mean, these services, even Netflix probably, they have done Super Bowl ads where they were like, this is what you're going to be getting from us.

Interesting. But in terms of the... I said, for some reason, do not recall a single... I mean, I recall, obviously, Lord of the Rings and deal of time ads, but I don't remember Amazon ever being like... Prime video is a thing. You guys buying Swiffer Sheets? I think it's...

Check out the wilds. That's a one-to-one. I think that that's got to be a line-item thing. The tech companies are like, we don't need to spend money to constantly tell you we're here. Our job is for you to just not even think about us being here and go to us.

Right. I think that's... Well, it gets into the sort of melting boundary between channel and platform. Speaking of melting boundaries, Chernobyl Pod coming on Thursday. See, that's good advertising. That's what we do.

We're the sharps. All right, there's a couple of other things I wanted to hit. I imagine we're just going to spend 20 minutes talking about the news from Sundance because we're passionate about indie film. Well, I did see that Netflix spent $20 million on a movie about high finance, which I love movies about high finance. Do you love everything about high finance? They're obviously good. The belt tightening is only happening in certain parts of Netflix or is not like obviously an acquisition. There was an interesting interview that Greg Peters, who is now the new co-CEO

CEO with Ted Sarandos, because Reid Hastings stepped down. We talked about that last week. Where those guys, it was with Lucas Shaw and Bloomberg, and Greg Peters was like, we're getting to the point where we, like, you know, Ash, I'll read the exact quote. How about that? Great. You know, Ted talks about how it's very rare that a show like Squid Game from Korea would be as global as it was within 30 hours

the world was watching Squid Game with no human intervention to try and market Squid Game to the world. So that speaks to what we were just saying about Netflix, not selling stuff. And then Greg Peters weighs in, we're just getting started to make Squid Game not an unusual thing but basically something that happens literally

every week. You mean we're going to make our subscribers compete to the death? I think what he means is that there would be a global phenomenon every week, which sort of that's the opposite of what a global phenomenon is. You can't have a global phenomenon all the time. That means it's not a phenomenon.

I think that's right. I mean... But I'm sure what he means is like something from some other part of the world becomes a global hit. Or is it more modestly like we'll be in the position to have the product that could pop? Sure. Like we'll have new international offerings every week and we are...

And I saw that that movie, Jungle was like number one on streaming movies for Netflix this week. No idea what that is. Right. It's a sci-fi movie. And I thought that that was like, it's an interesting indicator of where Netflix is going. Around the world.

Yeah. To Tommy McIney. Tommy McAnney from Boston. A couple other things for you. Before we get into some really truly delightful last of us, speaking of life-affirming. Speaking of global phenomenons. Avatar crossed the two billion.

dollar mark at the box office at the BO. Are your dollars in that kitty yet? This is what I want to talk to you about. I know you haven't seen it either. Right. When do we go in? When do we buy in? That is, I mean, we're four years late on Chernobyl.

I think we wait till the way of water is warm. You know what I mean? Like, we're just... Do you think you'll see way of water before Avi three drops, though? Wow. Have we confirmed, like, did Disney cut the check for Jim? Oh, yeah. He said if it makes $2 billion, he will...

definitely make the rest of them. But what's weird is, hasn't he already mostly made the rest of them? He's like, three's coming out, and three could be completed. And it would be, you could feasibly say that's the end of the series. Or? Or he's got four and five written. It's incredible. Here's my thing. And I want to be honest with you and with Kaya and with our listeners. I don't want to see this movie. I know that I've been playing it. I've been hedging, you know, I've been playing cute. You were pretty into it when it was. like it's about to come out and you were like, when are we going to see Avatar way of water?

You know, I like to just meet your enthusiasm head on about things about life. You love to live out loud. That's something I know about you. So when you're excited, I want to meet your excitement. I think I was excited when we got to make fun of people driving to Jim Cameron's personally fireproof ranch to work on the films. Seeing it has never been high on my list. To make the case for me.

Why do you want to see it? Why would I make the case for you? I haven't seen it either. No, but why do you want to and why do you? No, I'm joking about like at what point in the box office do we then become the only two, three people who haven't seen Avatar the way of water. Haven't seen Avatar the way of water. Have you seen the first Avatar? Yeah, like when I was a kid.

Oof, shots. Just another classic Kaya drive-by. What point do we, is it like, we're now very much in the hoody and the blowfish album zone. We're like multiple people have multiple copies of it. You know what I mean? But we don't. We haven't met those people. Did you ever buy that hoody record?

The only one to be with you record? Correct rearview? Yeah. You didn't have that on CD? Oh, so you're like, this is the Pauline Kale thing where it's like, I don't know anyone who voted for Nixon? Yeah. I'm not the guy.

I know this has been a take. I've seen this take. We were like, it can't really be popular because I don't know. Oh, yeah. There's no cultural footprint. There's no cultural footprint. I don't agree with that. It's more that the people that I know who have seen it.

I've received, this is not, this is a small sample size, but it's not just one person. I have received three text messages in the last six weeks from different people who have said, wish me luck, I'm going in to Avatar.

Just last night, someone was just like, if you never hear from me again, I'm setting foot in the theater with my children to see Avatar too. This doesn't make me that excited. It does feel like an obligation. The Oscar nominations happen tomorrow.

And it's going to get nominated. I think it's assumed that Avatar and Top Gun Maverick will both get nominated, but it seems like both of those films have faded from the what if we had a populist Oscars this year? What if the movies that really popped off were the ones that won or that were in contention?

Maybe I'm a little recency bias because of the Golden Globes, Tom Cruise stuff, and Top Gun not winning anything at the Golden Globes. I think there's a real world in which those two movies could at least do a lot technically.

Yes, and they will get nominated, which is significant. And I don't know, I mean, we need Sean Fantasy for this, for actual expertise, but and prognostication. And I know these categories and nominations aren't really, it's not like a hive mind

necessarily voting on everything, but I do wonder if the movement towards Angela Bassett winning an Oscar for Wakanda Forever kind of, then people who are voting are like, well, okay, so we're giving the popcorn one. You know what I mean?

Like a popcorn movie is going to be represented in the Oscars. I don't know. I mean, when I did Big Pick last week... Oh, you still cranking that out? And we chatted about some of like the sort of, what do we think is going to happen tomorrow? And what do we think is going to happen in the Oscars?

It seemed like Banshe's everything and outside Dark Horse Tar Fablemans are like the top four. To win. To win things. I mean, these are all shoe-ins for nominations because there's guaranteed 10 nominations. Yes. And there aren't. Although I'm hearing good things about this film, Jungle on Netflix. Okay. Ear to the ground.

People are talking about all the people I've talked to today have been talking about it. They're like, I just got out of Avatar from after six weeks. Okay, but wait, here's what I'd like to do, because I like servicey podcasting, and I have lots of four and a half hour blocks just wide open in my sketch. I would go see this movie with you if we did, like, if we set it up, we got the right snacks. They weren't out of Coors Light at the Regal Cinemas, and we walked right from the movie into the booth. Uh-huh. So basically we would do a three-hour and change movie right into a podcast. Yes.

That would then be a podcast about a movie that's been out. for the better part of three months. Well, we could also talk about hooting the blowfish. Okay. Like, we could really give the people what I guess they want. I guess we could start doing cracked rearview Thursdays. That's all of us catching. It's just catching up on shit we just didn't pay attention to.

Kai, if we say the words hooting the blowfish to you, what does that do? Does that mean anything? That's a band, right? Yeah. Yeah. Does it any significance to you in your life? I'm sure you would have recognized some of their songs. I'm not going to sing any of them, but...

I mean, you can. You do a good Darius record. Do I? Always have. Do you have a film that you are really pulling for this Oscar season? Have you decided to bless... Not, I think it's going to win, not blah, blah, blah, but this is the Andy movie. Tar.

Yeah. I mean, we still haven't really, really talked about it, but... It comes out on streaming on January 27th on the Peacock Network. That's great for it. Kyle will see it. Guy has already got it favored. So if it comes out, like, for a mass audience at the end of January, so we should pencil it in for 2025 for talk about it. That's the movie that I just, I can't stop thinking about, and I adore.

And I just think it's an incredible piece of art. I think Banchees is going to win a bunch of stuff. I think Panchees is going to the best picture. Really? You still haven't seen it, right? No, I will. It's streaming now. It's on HBO Max, yeah.

So is the idea, though, do you feel like the cultural footprint argument, is that just nonsense? Like, throw that away? because what is the cultural footprint of banshees? Other than it's good. I'm not saying it needs one, but I'm curious what your sense is. That's a good question. I think it kind of fits in right.

It's 70% like a really nice movie. Yes. Or no, I would say it's like 60% like a nice movie. And then the 40% that's dark and upsetting is still pretty like palatable, I think, for most people. So I think it's like a little bit of like, it's funny, but it's also homework. It's like a nice balance there.

I think the performances have become clearly like clubhouse leaders. Like the Colin Farrell victory tour is definitely happening. I don't know that he's going to win because of Brenda Frazier, but... But we have always rooted for our friend, Colin. It seems like the story of this movie is one that people are like happy to hear. I love the animals in it. I love Brennan Gleason and... Also, if you give that movie trophies, the producer gentleman will come up and say,

what a nice time they had. Exactly. I think everybody loves that. Yeah. I am almost annoyed at how much people are liking this movie because I am not the biggest. McDone guy. I mean, other than in Bruges, which I adore. I'm not the biggest McDonough guy, but many Chris people are talking about this film.

Let me tell you. The Streets of Hollywood. No, but I have to see it. Yeah. Well, it's right there on HBO Max, probably in a slide next to The Last of Us. Before we segue, I do like to, especially honor. our buttoned-up Monday show, talk to you about podcasts I listened to. Okay.

I did just want to check in with you. This is Tara Jason. Have you listened to Todd Field on the Mark Marin podcast? I haven't, but I read the Todd Field New Yorker profile. I think I'm tied it out, though. Well, there's just, like, is he the most interesting person alive, kind of? Because of his trajectory to where he is now? Well, that.

But there's an anecdote that maybe this is in The New Yorker. This was news to me. Like, the anecdote that he invented Big League Chew, people know that. that's out there. I'm not going to rehash that even though it involves Kurt Russell and Jim Bowden and Portland in the 70s. I'm not. Interesting though it may be.

In the interview, he's Marin's like, oh, do you live out here? And Todd feels like, oh, a long time ago I lived here. I'm like, oh, okay, where do you live? And he's like, rural Maine. Yeah. Like, I see the hats you wear in the press store. You definitely live in rural Maine and you're making it work. But his reasoning was so interesting. I just want to get your take on this.

Yeah, I'm a big Maine guy, so hit me up. He's like, why do you live in Maine? And he's like, well, it's a long story. And Mark Marin is like, this is literally a podcast. This is the one venue you don't have to use that caveat. Terry Gross is not going to interrupt you. It's fine. And he's like, well, my wife and I, our best friends, our best friends are her parents.

And already I'm like, it's not a red flag. It's just a kind of flag I've never seen before. That is not something you hear people say. And he's like, we spend all our time together. We have vacation together. So I'm waiting for him to say, and they live in Maine or we vacation in Maine. he's mid to late 50s, correct? I think so, yes. Yeah. So how old do you think his wife's parents are? Well, they're getting up there. This is part of the story. Okay. Again, this is a podcast. There's

room for this kind of banter. Uh-huh. Kaya is rolling her eyes, but it's fine. He's like, but when we spent so much time with my in-laws that when it was time for us to start our family, I felt like we needed to get some distance. Uh, so I asked my mother-in-law, whom I adored, where can we go in America where you won't follow us? And she was, and she was, and was like, oh, well, probably someplace like Maine, because you know Bill won't go anywhere where he can't get the New York Times in the morning. You can get the New York Times in Maine. This was, this is like 20 years ago. Okay. So he's like, great. So they moved to Maine and had children. And he's like, but, you know, the irony is my father-in-law now lives with us. And we're like,

oh, funny story. And then there's a pause and he's just like, my father-in-law, legendary screenwriter Bill Goldman. Oh my God. Yes. Right? Bill Goldman seems like a main guy. Here's the thing that's really funny is, you know how you probably don't have this feeling because you have two kids, but sometimes I just feel like days are really endlessly,

like just endless processions of like when is it time to go to bed? You know, like it's just hard to fill up the time. Yes. Do you feel that way? Never. I have never had that feeling, but thank you. And I think about like what,

what modern life is doing to my brain, not Bill Goldman? Bo Goldman. Yeah. The other great screener. Bill Goldman, who wrote City Hall, a film I watched for you something. A great screenwriter. I apologize to Bill Goldman, who...

Rest in peace. Rest in peace. Yes. I think about what it is about modern life that makes everything feel so, like, I don't know, small, right? Like, I always feel like the tasks that I used to do now are all compressed because you're able, there's so much efficiency, right? And one of the things...

You're literally speaking Esperanto, but I don't know. So you're like, oh, they can't get the New York Times in Maine or whatever. When I used to go to Vermont with my parents and when I was first learning how to drive, one of my daily activities would be to drive 25 minutes into town to pick up the New York Times for my dad. Then I would drive it 25 minutes back and I would sit down and I would be like, the Phillies one. Yes. This is also. And that's how I would find out about things.

Yes. And the next thing I knew two hours had gone by. But I had gone to get the paper, come back, read the box scores of the Major League Baseball games, process that information and then the day begin. Can I just quick parenthetical? What's giving me life right now isn't just our conversation

and being in the room with you guys. It's thinking about the spit take Sean Fennessey did in his BMW when he heard me say Bill Goldman was living in Maine with Todd Field in the 45 seconds between me saying that and me realizing I made a terrible mistake. This is great.

I really enjoyed that. Okay. To follow up, this is relevant for a number of reasons. One, you know the thing about that time when it took you two hours to find out if the Phillies had won or if the U.S. had defaulted on its debt? Sure. You were fine.

You know what bad things happened during that time? No, no bad things. You didn't need to know. That's relevant. The other thing that's relevant is sometimes, and I want to blow up your spot, you would drive 25 minutes to town, find like an old payphone. Insert a quarter and call me and be like, Andy, guess what? No, I would actually, my parents had an AT&T card, so I would dial 75.

four numbers so that I can have a long-distance phone call with you about comic books. You'd be like, I'm really into the X-Men now. Do you know about the prophecy of the 12? And I'd be like, oh my God, that's incredible. And Chris gets back from New England. Like, we're going to just like get into this shit.

Like, is Cyclops Omega level? And I would spend like $70 on graphic novels just to get up on it. And you'd come back and be like, Chris, what do you think? You'd be like, what are you talking about? Well, you make it sound like I was on acid. That's not what was happening. You may have been. No, I mean, like, I wasn't in a fugue state.

I think I just had, I was like, I had quick burning passions back then, you know? Well, then you had so much time to, like, burn through them. Yeah. During the long drive back. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back.

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Book your spring break now. Last of Us. Yep. Speaking of New England. Yes. I got it. Yes. You got it.

Last of us, episode two. Yep. So, spoilers for this one going forward in case you are behind on that because you were celebrating the Niners game last night or something. Anna Torv. character, her character Tess, passes away. Shocked. In this one, were you shocked? Because this is becoming,

I think, a little bit of a trick. It's the flashy casting out in the first two episodes. Yeah, not shocked. Not shocks. I mean, she doesn't seem to be one of the last of us. Do you know what I mean? Like, the marketing of the show is pretty clear. Well, last suggests

one. She's like one of the penultimate last of us. This was not a surprise. Were you surprised? it happens so early. Nope. Okay. You just want to interrogate me

about the episode? No, because I think that shows, I am not played this game, nor am I engaging deeply in how it differs from the game discourse that's going on. So I am still taking this show

episode by episode and be like, interesting. One of the things that's kind of fascinating is watching this show and one of the reasons why we watch Chernobyl is because we wanted to kind of treat Craig Mason as what he is, which is an important showrunner

and TV creator and look at how these two shows talk to each other. Yeah. Obviously, there's like this tapestry of characters in Chernobyl with a central relationship of Selwyn Scars Guard and Jared Harris in the middle. And in that show, all of the characters live long, healthy, and productive lives. So this pivot is shocking, shocking. He wanted to do something different.

Yeah, right. It's exactly. He wanted to just get a little darker. I get it. Here's what I love about this episode. Okay. genre television sometimes gets a little caught in a rut where it's entirely about the plot. So even something that we love like mayor of Easttown, whereas you might start it and you're like,

what I really want to do is just be sitting around with mayor and Jean Smart and the priest and the daughter and watching them drink cosmopolitans or Manhattans and her drinking rolling rocks and icing her ankle with frozen vegetables. And that's it. That's all I want. Like the missing girl, the intrigue. And then genre shows have to then turn the, themselves over to their genre. Yep.

And at least right now, I think that Mazum may have split the difference where there is a mission to this show and there is an almost old school like in every week there will be a new challenge kind of thing. But there also seems to be, they're keeping it nebulous enough about like he just needs to get her west, you know, that I really like, I'm really enjoying the pacing and the structure of the show so far. And I think it lets you kind of invest yourself in this main relationship. I agree with you about the pacing.

I agree with you about just the production and performance and just overall quality about the show. I also think that I'm in and second episodes are the hardest ones. I'll also say that anecdotally we've heard good things about the third episode. Some new actors show up, some people were excited to see. So whatever criticisms I have about this episode need to be taken with all of that, all of those grains of salt. because to me, this episode as a TV show was definitely a video game. Interesting.

A hundred percent. Like, how will you get in this door? I will climb over here. Don't even worry about what we're doing. We have to go through this building to encounter different level enemies and challenges to achieve our objectives. I can see that.

I didn't, now I'm not watching this, as you called out, I'm not taking copious notes on this show. Or ever, really? But the mission felt incredibly, you know what, there's a word for it that I remember from video games, but basically there was a whole genre of, basically one of the things of games is you wanted the sense of open-ended possibility, but you also have to narrowly window your options so that you feel like you're in control, but really you have to go this way to encounter this thing so this plot points can happen. And I could just sort of feel that pressure.

Now, genre television shows or plot-heavy television shows do that too. And so what was interesting to me just on a conceptual or like 10,000 foot level about this episode was what I perceived to be a tension, a healthy tension, a creative tension between Craig Mazen's storytelling impulses and the track that Joel and Ellie have to be on. And to that end, what this episode reminded me of, if you allow it, is the Beverly Center. Now, for those of those of you not here in Los Angeles, you may not be familiar with the Beverly Center, which is a. enormous white brick of a mall. Pure vertical mall. In West Hollywood that I think is very important to people who are Brett Easton Ellis and other contemporaries of his from like the 80s.

This is like a big destination. It's on La Siena. Sorry, your muffs if the architect is a deep fan of us, but it's a deeply ugly building. And really like this is what we thought shopping Nirvana would be in the 80s. It's going to come as a great surprise to you, but the architect is actually Todd Field's their law. Oh my God, I've done it again. Mr. Field, I'd like to apologize.

The family's of Mr. Goldman. No, and so a few years ago, I just feel, what's the problem with this building? I just feel like a few years ago, they were like, well, this is ugly. We don't want to be ugly anymore, but we can't change it. So we will hire smart people to make it do the best we can around it and cosmetically change it. So they put some like grading on it and change the shape I'm from the outside and the perception of it in space and opened up some doors on the ground level so you can enter from the street. I sincerely have never noticed that.

It's always just looked like the fucking Astrodome is on Lassianica. I think about this a lot because I'm passionate about modern architecture. This is an overall... I'm going to paint a little bit of a word picture for the non-Angelinos listening to this, okay? So it's essentially like you drive down Beverly or whatever, which is like a wide avenue. Make a hard left on Lassianica.

I mean hard, not in its angle, but like it takes a while to make the left. then you make a suicidal right turn into a parking lot. Try to find parking for about half an hour. And then you get on an escalator for the average runtime of the way of water. And you just take this escalator up. And I think for at least the first four minutes of the escalator, there is no commercial, like, it's all parking. You're just going up past all the parking and whatever, like, foundational beams they've got there.

It's just great time to think about the choices you've made that have led you to this moment. And then you get out. And I guess what would you say is like the Beverly Center has a lot of like luxury brand boutiques. Right. Yeah. I don't go there. But this is an overall metaphor. I just want to say when you have something maybe for historical purposes or architectural purposes or practical purposes that can't be changed.

Yeah. Some of the most creative work is done in the margins or cosmetically or on the outside, change your perception of things. And that is what I felt Mazen doing here. And I don't mean that as disrespect to the game. Obviously, Neil Druckman, the creator or co-creator was. is very involved in the series. But my enjoyment of the episode primarily came from what I took to be

the cosmetic external changes. And the biggest example of that is what appears to be now a running thing of cold opens, said in the past. I was going to bring this up. So I bet that these are the ones I bet freak you out. Because of my upcoming travel to Jakarta?

No, because I just think that like the, I was wondering whether you get more scared by these glimpses at how things went wrong than you do by mushroom heads. Because the mushroom head stuff is pretty, it's pretty hard. Yeah, and it's fine. It's well directed and conceived

and creative and et cetera, but it doesn't feel groundbreaking or new, nor did the twist of like, guess who's actually bitten here. And what she's going to do to get them. I mean, we've seen these stories before. It doesn't undercut the performance or the choices by the creators

who put us down that path. It's effective. but 100% agree with you and feel that these opens, whether it was the first episode of the talk show in the 60s or this, which is where an Indonesian mycology professor is pulled away from her. Wrata, yeah. Played by Christine Hakeem, who I just want to say, like, when they get to the bomb scene, when she's like, drop a bomb.

Yeah. It's awesome. It's amazing. Her lunch also looked great. Yeah. That drops of God Greenwald at it again. I love that. This is what I want my creators to be doing.

this is what I want added to TV shows that have an A to B to C plot. This is what I want people to be doing with HBO budgets, frankly. And yes, it was, to me, 100 times more horrifying and impactful than the scenes of mushroom-headed monsters jumping out of Revolutionary War exhibits. But it is helping. You know, I don't mean this is... I'm not trying to create a narrative, which I don't even know if it's accurate. I don't think it's helpful to be like, well, Mazen is just trying to improve something

that's a video game. I don't think that's what's happening here at all. all. But I do think these are the evidence of a really smart, creative mind, not helping, but just adding, right? Making things stronger, richer, deeper, better. And I really am responding to that. Yeah, I mean, obviously, Ratna's talking about dropping a bomb to save people at the end of the episode, Tess blows up the Massachusetts State House to save Ellie and Joel. And we learned that they did bomb the cities. Yeah. And they're, right, they're walking around. They're seeing craters.

To your video game point, I noticed a couple of those things, too. There are little micro-challenges or puzzles that these characters have to solve. I don't find them uncimatic or uninteresting. I don't necessarily know if they would be highly re-watchable, although I did re-watch both of the first two episodes because my wife got into the show, so I went up re-watching them and found them really enjoyable on the second pass. There was also a moment where I noticed, as they approached the state house, that truck that's supposed to have the fireflies

who are going to take Ellie away, I think is painted blue and it pops on the screen as a color because everything else is kind of overgrown green, which when you walk into a, when I used to play video games and you would be going into a level. In Vermont.

You would look for the color because that would be the thing that you had to open or solve or fix or take the view or whatever. Certainly in the video games of our generation, you couldn't interact with very much. There would be the one thing in each space that you could. Yeah, and it would be like,

would you like to open this. And the other thing that's really like very video gamey is like when you arrive at like some destination, there is a cache of like supplies. You know, like you have come across and that's sort of what happens when they get there. And the fireflies seem to have brought a small nation's armory with them into the statehouse. I just continue to feel that it's an uphill climb on a certain level. Like this is not me saying the show isn't already successful, both in terms of audience metrics and in terms of execution. This is something we said last week. Like it, one of the smart.

hardest decisions that they made was let's just get into it. Let's not try to solve a problem that doesn't exist yet and make this a different thing than it wants to be. And I think that's very successful. Well, would that, an example of that being like two episodes of pre-apocalypse hanging out in Texas stuff? Because really, yes, because genuinely, this has felt, certainly once Ellie joins the game or the show, that it's like, it's objective based. Now we have to go to here. And when you get there, your objective changes or the stakes change. Now we're going here and we're going there. Okay, that's what this is. And you fight bosses. along the way and you fight bad guys. But

sometimes I do feel like you get caught up in it. And then in the lulls, I'm like, but I don't, what's Joel been doing? And why do I, why have I signed up for this? I'm not fully buying. What's Joel been doing? Like, what's he been doing in the intervening 12 years? 20 years. But also just like the the Ellie stuff is not quite working for me yet. Because I don't fully, you know, and again, it speaks to the problems with these

large-scale end-of-the-world shows, where the stakes become so incomprehensible that our investment is sometimes challenged. So to say that this girl who we've just met is the key to something or everything, and then have Anatoa be like,

set things right. Now, that's a lovely line of dialogue. But that, I mean, have you seen Boston recently? So this is worse than the Back Bay. What was the construction they were doing forever? The big dig. Oh, it's a big, man. This is worse than that.

I have a lot of Boston notes. I have some notes about the show just this episode specifically. So it's just that that's the openings of our world are doing a lot of the water carrying to earn those other moments to me. And I don't want to argue both sides of this because I do think that ultimately what checked me out of walking, well, there are many things that check me out of Walking Dead,

but one was that I guess at the time seemingly bold choice to be like, well, we're never going to fix this. And the show isn't going to be about that. But then what was it going to be about? Well, see, Walking Dead to me is an example. of also, like, with all due respect to whatever the budgets were to make that show that they, and also to follow

along with the source material, decided that, like, there would not be a ton of walking on the walking dead. Like, they would be staying in certain places for several episodes. They would, you know, like, my understanding is like, as later seasons have come along, there's, like,

communities, like, there's big fortresses. And none of them are particularly, like, humane. But, you know, like, I just, I think, think that there's something about the prospect of these two with a journey and getting out of like, because remember there was that Walking Dead episode where they go to, was it Omaha? What was it? The one where they go into a town and then they run into Michael Raymond James from Terriers. Yeah. Remember then? We were like, this is the show. Yeah. Right. We really talked about that one episode.

A lot. That's like, that's going to be like Giants fans talking about the Vikings game last week. For years. I wanted to ask you a little bit about, I always love watching dystopian stuff, especially when they're so detail-oriented, like Last of Us. What's the vibe on that chicken sandwich, Ellie, pulls out? That was... So Ellie has a chicken, seemingly like a lovely

chicken, grilled chicken sandwich on rustic white. It's not... You know what it looks like? Have you been to Daybird here? This is very L.A. centric. Is that in the Beverly Center? It's located in the beating heart of the Beverly Hills. Center.

No, it's May Lint, May, who won Top Chef, opened a fried chicken sandwich place. And the hallmark is that it's like very spicy and there's a bun and the fried chicken is so beautiful. It like extends halfway out of

bun. I don't like sandwiches like that. Okay, this isn't about you. I'm just saying, I like my sandwich to be within the parameters of the breading. What I'm saying is that somehow in this dystopia Ellie pulls out a sandwich that should be on eater. Right. Like, it is a wild sandwich.

And they're just eating like jerky, right? Yeah, they're eating jerky. Also, like, it doesn't seem, if your mission, potentially suicide mission is to send the hope of humanity out into the West for days, weeks, months to save everything, you've got to do better than one juicy sandwich. You should give her jerky. Do you know what I mean?

Like, let her have some chicken just to make her feel good. but that doesn't seem smart. Like also the bread's going to get soggy. Like keep McDLT this. Yeah. This, I mean, maybe I'm overreacting here,

but I didn't get it. I was kind of hoping that some Boston establishments would have made it through this, you know, like maybe, like, some maybe they would be able to get like a terrible burrito somewhere or something.

Like, I guess. That's your shout-out Boston food scene? Well, they have, um, they have opioids. In Boston or in the show.

In the show. Okay. And they also, have guns, obviously, somewhere. Yep. But, like, what's the food production situation? Like, did Cisco survive? Like, are the trucks still rolling?

Is Tyson still pumping out chicken tenders? Like, well, what was the name of that diner that you loved in Back Bay? Charlie's? Charlie's, yeah. Like, do you think that if, like, what if Charlie's just by dint of survival and bombing runs? It's just cranking out banana pancakes. But, like, what if it was in the QZ?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. but they would be under this authoritarian rule. Oh. Yeah. So like not everybody could get cheesy eggs? Only people who throw children into burning pits are allowed to get cheesy eggs. Yeah.

I'd be willing. I mean, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it. Those eggs were good. They were wonderful. I was, you mentioned the Boston part. It's kind of fascinating the depiction of,

which I imagine is very much pulled from the game. But the, the depiction of Boston, I thought was awesome. The Storo drive. stuff was really cool. I see no difference. I knew you were going to say that.

It just like, they just like, it really puts you in the same way like David Simon shows show you Baltimore. Do you remember like in June of 2020? Yeah. When it was like dolphins of return to the canals of Venice. Yes. That was all legit from what I understand. That's a little bit of what it looks like now.

Yeah. It's just Boston, city of champions. I don't. No notes. No, they're not champions. Because they, because this happened in 03. Right. The Red Sox never won the World Series.

Oh, man. We talked about this. I know, but I'm just... They have no... The only titles they have those Celtics ones. How's the sports guy feeling about this show?

Like, it just took away... The banners, the flags don't fly forever. I don't know how Bill's selling about this. Do you think that he listens to us and that's why he doesn't give the Eagles in her respect? I think he definitely listens to us all the time. And I think that's why. Because can I quote him from his podcast today?

Sure. About all of the playoff games this weekend? I don't want to talk about this game anymore. That's all I have to say about this game. The one text, I got from him about that game was hate deferring in the first quarter off the coin toss

as a Giants, for some reason a Giants fan for that day. And that was it. He didn't check in even after I sent Deshawn Jackson Gives. Well, maybe that's why. But thank you for representing for us, for all of us. I the chicken sandwich thing and the Boston thing,

there are some details that I am interested in that tie into this. It's not just like, we're not just going I mean, wait, maybe, are we, am I reaching into the bag and pulling out the dusty, what's interesting about Game of Thrones is the money take? No, this is what draws it. This is why we were into Andor. This is why we're, you're right.

You're right. That show proved the balance. So like there's some, we talked about the jacket last week, and we don't need to belabor that because we destroyed everyone's Instagram algorithms just by talking. But there's some shots of, in an episode where they're like, if the fungus tendrils touch you or we make noise in the ground. Oh, I want to talk about this. So we see Joel's boots.

And, you know, I'm not against this. It's a cool shot. They're cool boots. And we also, it's been established that, like, they need to be thoughtful about their bodies. Yeah. And where they're moving and how they move. But, you know, if most of the world died, there's a lot of high quality items in the now abandoned stagg provision stores spread out across the country. So how would you dress?

Well, it, okay. If you had the run of the Beverly Center, how would you dress? an apocalypse. I would dress like Nick Siriani in the locker room. I would get a Dream Chasers chain. I would wear a track suit.

I'm thrown by that question. I would like to throw up to you. Well, because you're implying that he should somehow be wearing like a three-piece suit. No, no, no, no. The opposite. I'm saying it's interesting because clearly this matters and they have access to looting

and just taking stuff. Yeah. So it didn't bother me that he had brand new high quality boots, like everyone would. There's plenty of shit in the world. And I'm interested in, you know, do they do sorties to like raid the outlet malls?

Yeah, like Macy's, right. Or do they but how would, I mean, how would you dress, Chris? I mean, also, what is your job? I mean, because, I mean, I think you're a talented guy. Depends on the climate. But I feel like the cultural podcasting market does not explode. I usually, I would not call myself humble about

my role in a zombie apocalypse. I believe at some points I've suggested to you that I could rise to some sort of... Sometimes. That's one of your core bits. But it's just like, you know, a leader will rise kind of thing. Like, I kind of feel like... If we're taking away a lot of, like, the educational or experiential requirements of being in government or leadership... Which we have.

Which we have, by the way. I feel like I would be able to provide a lot of, like, you know, a lot in a leadership role in an apocalypse. But... Yeah. The wrinkle that they've thrown in on this show where you... you have to watch where you walk would not work for me. Okay. Just not a very careful walker.

I'm not like a precise like, oh, I'm making sure I don't step on a root kind of thing. Like I kind of just, I'm always up here in the head space. Even in New York? Like, didn't you pride yourself on like maneuvering like a Tetris game through city streets? Yeah, but I didn't have to look down in New York. You know what I mean? Like you're just like you're looking up and you're trying to avoid people who were like, I've decided to open this umbrella in the middle of like 41st Street.

Amateur shit. Yeah. But I just feel like if it was a matter of like if you step on that route, you will awaken a tribe of zombies who will then have a tracking device on you. That does seem unfortunate. I think that that would probably spell doom for me. I'm interested in my administration. You and vice chairman Santos running the eastern seaboard. Well, you're apparently sitting in a Gucci store in the Beverly Center.

My approach to this mushroom pandemic would be similar to. Anna Torev's attitude at the end of her life 20 years into the pandemic. I would just open my mouth and kiss anything that came at me. Really? Yeah, I was fine. Sign me up for the collective. You know what I mean? Like, let me become part of this. I would always, I would always just be like, you know, another day, another at bat.

You never know. You're kind of pitching yourself as this is even more niche. I don't know if anyone, how many people watched it, but like Bill Camp shows up in the middle of white noise. It's just like, I can really rally this room. Yeah. Is that you? Can you really? Because, Because so our mutual, our good, our old friend, Ringer friend, Chuck Klooserman and I were talking the other day. And we always talk about how what makes you the best of what you do has always been there.

Like you, the CR head mentality would have also, the CR heads would have flocked to you at high-fi in the East Village in the early 2000s. Sure. You've always been funny, charismatic, you tell good stories. Like, you're good at this. And then the world was like, here is a career doing. the thing that you are naturally very good at. Well, it just depends on what kind of life we wanted to live in that society. Like, are we trying to

just get along to go along? Are we trying to expand? Are we trying to have like a hostile relationship with zombies? Are we just trying to keep them out of Boston? You know? You have my vote. No, I say put them all in Boston. It's open the gates of the Charles River sluice gates. Just like, open.

Let him go hang out the green monster. It's fine. That's what Boston is going to be for now. Thank you for your service. And the rest of us will go about our day. I just like the idea the confidence of being like, I could have become a podcaster if that door was open to me, but the mushrooms came.

And instead, I'm going to be the leader of the Eastern Sea War. No, I mean, the truth is that I die in a traffic jam in Texas anyway. Like, I just, there's no way this happens. Are you there for Sepa? Are you shopping at SAG with a Topo Chico in hand? Dying as he lived. Iying overpriced cardigans with a bubble

water. Anything else from this episode that you wanted to hit? No, just to say that what's interesting about the episodic nature of it is every week could be different, which is good, I think. Not because I didn't particularly, like, this episode was fine. I didn't get too high or too low on it. But I appreciate the built-in sense, not based on, I didn't watch scenes for the next episode. I'm not, I'm tossing away the fact that I know Murray Bartlett is showing up. I just mean, it feels clear that it can change week to week, which I think is a good thing.

How you feel about Pedro? You know, I was watching this second episode of The Last of Us the way many people should with their mother-in-laws, mothers-in-law, who by the way really is like, I'm not saying she's seen Avatar or Nightcourt, but when they were in the Revolutionary Museum, she exclaimed, oh, don't get bitten. Right. So she's on the same page. She's catching with her pitching. Right. And there was a moment, I think, when he gives like, there. that we're going the long way or the short way conversation.

And she was like, he looks like Bert Reynolds. And I was like, wait, kind of does. And that's the vibe. Yes. That is the movie star, but in this universe TV star vibe, that he is giving us, and it is rock solid. That unlocked it for me. Not that I've never, I've never disliked him.

So have they seen both episodes, or was just just like a random, like, what's on thing? No, and to be clear, my father-in-law was snoring. Okay. So he did not watch any of it. But she was like, this is good. She said it was a little bit like La Brea, the NBC show. I could neither confirm nor deny that.

She was like, don't you do a podcast about television? And I was like, I can neither confirm nor deny that. We just talk about Nightcourt. I haven't heard from my mom about it. My wife loves this show. It just seems like this show has a very high approval rating. And what's Phoebe's, like what's her? I think she really likes the horror aspect of it.

Yeah, you guys love that. She likes the kind of detention. I think they do set pieces really well. I like how they're doling out the rules of the world, like kind of piecemeal, but not in a way that seems improvised. So learning that the infected, the zombies are very hearing sensitive. The mushroom people can't see, but they can hear really well. You know, I was wondering as a guy who recently got glasses, whether that's affected your other senses, like kind of a reverse Spider-Man. I think without question, I think that I am a supertaster now.

That's right. Like in all areas, I am better than I was. Okay. I accept seeing, which continues to be a challenge. But that's, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just, it's the margins for me. Like the other lingering question, not lingering question, but sort of interest point is when Ellie's like, I went to school.

And I'm okay, because I read an interview with Bella Ramsey after the first episode where she was like, you know, part of the conversations of the character is like she. What does she know? Well, not just what she knows, but her whole. life has been in this. So she curses a lot and she knows how to toss a knife. I'm like, okay, that sounds gnarly. But then she was also going to school. So what was that? What do they learn? I guess she learns where to try this. Well, and she's going to a government school, right? But there is a resistance to the government in this, in this universe. So this school,

this show is pro-charter school. That's the debate. Let's make, what if we made this show, the avatar, for absolutely inappropriate content. just political debates. Oh, that's what they're saying. Yeah. Well, let's wrap up here because we have a big one coming on Thursday. We may or may not, because PokerFace comes out on Thursday. And I don't know whether or not that would be something we can get to before we record or whether that's something we need to save for the following Monday.

You mean, should we talk about a hot new show or devote the entire podcast to something? Well, but when you think about it, more people have probably seen Chernobyl than Pover Face because Poverface isn't out yet. And Chernobyl has been out for four and a half. years. Yeah, so we gave everybody a head start, and now we come in. You're welcome, everybody. So we're going to talk about Chernobyl on Thursday. It's been very heartwarming to see people's reactions to Andy and I and our Mia Kobla. I think people like humility. Uh-huh. I think that's very attractive to people in podcasts that are supposed to have strong opinions. So yeah, poker face, Chernobyl, and then obviously we'll keep talking about the last of us.

Thank you to Kaya. Came in today to the studio. Interesting new vibe for us. Interesting, yeah. Feeling ourselves out. But I think also there's just like a sort of All-Business Monday, you know. I thought this was a very, very stoic podcast. I appreciate your rigor. We had some laughs. We laughed about the Beverly Center. We live out loud.

That's our new motto. I'm trying that out. That's just what we do. Okay. Right? Apple, call me.