The Watch - ‘The Last of Us’ Episode 4, James Gunn’s New DCU Plans, and the Paramount Plus and Showtime Merger

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the newly announced Paramount Plus with Showtime streaming service (1:00), as well as some of James Gunn’s recently divulged plans for the DCU—plans that are said to include the centering of writers when making future movies (13:57). Then they break down the latest episode of ‘The Last of Us’ (22:27). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe. Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on

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Stand up and walk. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he's a big puns guy. It's Andy Greenwald. Those were good puns.

It was a big pun, big puns kind of joke, too. Because you are a big... Oh, there was a pun in your... Yeah. Because you're a big, big pun dude. I was always a fat Joe guy. You were a big pun guy. But together, the twins with a Z, that's us.

We came together. This joke would have played better before the world ended in the Last of Us universe. It would have played better if we were in person, but we're unfortunately on Zoom today, Andy.

We're recording a little bit before our Monday scheduled release, but we are going to be talking about the Last of Us episode four today. We also, I'm sure, have a little bit of news and notes. How are you doing? I was okay.

I mean, I do think people need to know that CR's new podcasting style, like to psych people out, that he's about to do an entertaining culture hour conversation with. Like right before we podcast, Chris is like, so have you heard about this Chinese weather balloon that's spying on our missile silos? Also, what's up? Bird flu's coming. I just like to fire up the locker room before we hit the field. You just froze everyone on the field. God, I was feeling pretty good. But thanks to you, maybe I need to be more vigilant. So you're saying

looking at my big beautiful face with an eagle's hat on the week before the Super Bowl doesn't cheer you up. the only bird flu I'm interested in. Andy, do you want to talk at all about some of the DC stuff that you had teased on Thursday show with Casey boys? Not to Casey ploys, but or maybe lament the end of showtime a little bit more? What if we had teased Casey with the DC stuff? Not tease that we were going to talk about it, but just actively trolled him.

I mean, what if we had just been like, we're going to have a silent boycott of your presence here because of Doom Patrol? Right. Your silence on the fate of the Blue Beetle movie is deafening. Okay, I do want to run through both those things. But I was interested because last week I was floating a take that in the history, the long and torturous, if not tortured, history of streaming service naming problems, the newly unveiled Paramount Plus with Showtime is the worst of all time. And you were like, you know what? This is fake news. You're like, this is a non-issue. it doesn't matter. People will still get their billions when they want it. And the naming stuff doesn't matter anymore. I was shocked by this take. I was shocked by it. I don't know if this is your new fatalistic attitude now that weather balloons are dropping bird flu on us. I can't tell anymore what's real. But I just find it interesting from a consumer

perspective as well as a corporate perspective because all of this has been half measures, right? Like, the decisions being made on these topics all seem to be half steps, right? Because there's a version of this where if the corporate leaders, the bobs, if you will, and the honorary bobs, had seen the playing field, the playing field, which is currently cratering, like, the playing field the Steelers were on in the third Batman movie. You could say, you could just call it Dark Night Rises. I don't know why you're like what's so formal about the third Batman movie. I didn't remember what it was called. D.K.R? You call it DK.R?

Hell yeah, man. In which group chat that I'm not welcome? I refer to it as DK.R. to Sean, to fantasy. We talk about Dacharizes a lot. Because of Bain or because of Hinesworth? Because specifically of the sequence at the beginning with Aiden Gillen. I guess you didn't listen to the Sky Trash episode of the Big Picture, but specifically Aidan Gillen's saying,

I'm in the CIA! Where's Bain? and all that stuff in the beginning. And I really do love the Heinz Field explosion. Is the big picture, that's a podcast on the Ringer Network? It is, yeah. Look, all I was saying is run the tape back five years, and they could have just been like, hey, everything's showtime.

Shut the fuck up. Do you know what I mean? Like, let's just call all of it a thing and be done with it. But all these other interests got in the way where they're like, Well, Showtime and CBS are all part of the Viacom Paramount family. But then Paramount is going to win this war and it's not Viacom anymore. So we really want to remind people that Paramount is a thing. Even though I don't think historically Joe and Mo Popcorn, that's the couple that's the couple that's

just going to the theaters, you know, just watching content. Do the popcorn family, do they eat popcorn or do they find that kind of weird? It gets in their teeth. And they don't like that. They bring their own snacks. They bring their own snacks a million percent. I don't think they care about the historical brand value of Paramount, the degree that the people who took over and wanted to slap it on everything

cared about it. So that's where we end up with CBS. What was the CBS streaming service that existed until like six months ago? I think it was like CBS Plus, right? CBS Interact. Look, I don't know. The point being, that one went away. that folded into Paramount Plus,

as did the Paramount Network, and Showtime was available on it, and now Showtime, which has had its ups and downs, has never been, has always been the little brother to HBO's big brother, but has had hits and Emmy success and Critical Darling's,

is now just becoming Paramount Plus with Showtime, which is about trips off the tongue as beautifully as FX on Hulu. And I don't understand what we're doing anymore. And suddenly, but wait, piggybacking on our, poker face conversation last

maybe Peacock had it right man maybe the cock is right it's right I just we're just gonna come up with a name relax you know because all of these even when we talk to Casey like did you notice he was saying HBO HBO HBO or subscription company he was still talking about the company

and network that we've been talking about and covering or had in our lives for decades right and then he was referring to how max is also under his purview which is a different beast with different branded content, different originals. He never said HBO Max as a streaming service or HBO Max Discovery or Mr. Discovery or Zazlav's Folly or whatever we're calling it these days. It's too complicated.

Just call a peacock. I do think this time next year, let's just say. Yes. Maybe next summer, not this coming summer, but the next summer or something, this will all be like a little bit more streamlined. I think that they will probably just call it Paramount Plus and there will be like the Showtime executives will some will work there some of the shows will look like Showtime shows maybe Showtime will just be a vertical

within the Paramount Plus streaming service the bundling of this stuff probably fine I just see that someone somewhere is going to be like why don't we just make this one thing you know like yes and so like even the Hulu Disney Plus ESPN Plus bundle which I'm sure they make some money off of as like that digital troika of things that you can have where you, you know, I feel like that's going to eventually become,

do you want to sign it for Disney Plus? You get ESPN and FX and Hulu for free with this, if you pay for it. It's just an interesting moment when I think that for some companies, brand recognition, brand familiarity matters more than ever, but at a certain point, if you're going to bank on that, you're going to have to redefine the brand. And what I mean by that is FX on Hulu is called FX on Hulu,

because what FX does best isn't traditionally Disney stuff, even though it's all Disney. So if you go to other countries, which you do frequently in your capacity as an avian virologist, you would go on Disney Plus. I think it would be called Disney Plus. I think maybe it would be called in France, unclear. and one of the windows is, I believe, something called Star, which essentially is FX. And somehow, in the same way that they serve beer at McDonald's there, they can accept the idea

that there might be some swears on their Disney content. And maybe we're all being too precious about this, is my larger point. And I say this as someone who historically is quite precious about almost everything. What was your favorite season of Californiccation? The one where Dukovni got a handy, but was sad a little bit. Do you have a favorite all-time showtime show? I guess that would be Twin Peaks the Return, right? Thank you for that.

Yeah. Yes. Would you have been able to pull that out of your back pocket if I hadn't given it to you? I was prepped for that. Okay. It's a steep drop-off after that. No, I mean, Homeland was a very big show. Homeland ruled?

Yeah. I like the first season of Nurse Jackie a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How did you feel that season's two through nine? I think that they probably, like, that was always Showtime's thing, is like whether, like, this sort of never-ending story of these shows that go on for eight, nine seasons, shameless nurse Jackie, Ray Donovan, like, just. Shameless was good. I thought Shameless was good, too.

But I did not watch 90 episodes of it, but it was good. What's funny is that they were making TV always. You know, they took a few feints in the direction of, like, Good Lord Bird or something we've talked about more recently as like a, um, that could have been on. any of the prestige networks, it's fantastic. They took a real flyer on it, and I think it paid off. The Twin Peaks show is another example of that. I mean, Twin Peaks reboot or continuation. But yeah, but yeah, like they basically, remember we were, like Homeland was, what did we

call it at the time, slow food 24? Yeah, can you imagine being like Homeland is Slow Food? We were the best men. Those are our glory years. But I'm just saying, like, their sensibility makes sense. again, you know, and it's just odd to be like, yeah, we're just going to dilute this even further into the larger Sheridanverse. But I'm not saying they have better choices, but I am saying this is my new island. Okay, I'm built, I've started to find some, some structure, some wood,

some like some water sources on this island where I'm saying, let's all slow down. Maybe peacock was right. That's my zag, because Kai has convinced me. Every time, since we've been in the studio, Kaya, Kaya was talking about the avatar she's chosen, which I believe was a peacock. It could be wrong about that. No, that's the default avatar. We're still waiting on Kaya to finally cast her vote and take a stand on something. I've already said, I have Detective Olivia Benson as my avatar. I don't know why Kaya refuses to associate herself with one of the many characters in the

Peacock Galaxy. Isn't there a below-debt person you can pick, Kaya? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there is. you know, I fired up my peacock service last night, and I watched two episodes of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Yeah. And I had a lovely time. I'm just perusing the offerings before I make my decision.

Someone from that show got... So much to choose from. Someone from that show got incarcerated, right? Yeah. Yeah, they did. Can you pick her as your avatar? You sound like Olivia Benson right now. Well, when the shoe fits,

I'll just be fascinated to see what of Showtime lives on, whether the name Showtime lives on as a channel within Paramount Plus, what they do with that library, and whether or not they continue to make shows, new shows. I'm sure they'll keep putting billions up, but whether they continue to make new shows under that banner. Yellow Jackets was a big thing. And I mean, I think the channel is still there.

You know what I mean? It is. Well, that's the thing that in the drive home from our Casey talk that I was really struck by was the way he talked about his job primarily. I mean, he said he had, you know, he wears many. hats now, but is as the steward of the HBO channel, of the home box office. And it seemed as if, I mean, first of all, I think that's healthy and it's producing great shows, and I'm not arguing with it. But it did seem like he was considering a consumer who is still paying a premium

subscription fee on their cable bill. To tune into HBO and to service that person, as opposed to the suite of HBO programming will fit in nicely next to the Studio Ghibli box and the DCU box on the HBO Max streaming app. And I thought that was interesting. And I think it's probably useful and producing good content. I also wonder if that is decidedly not the case in a company like Paramount, which has reshuffled more aggressively, even more aggressively than Discovery Warner Brothers has reshuffled and now continues to shuffle further, where it just seems like all the programming is streamlined. And yes, to your point, showtime execs exist, showtime shows exist, but I don't know how strong those sea walls between them are anymore. We mentioned the DC stuff

a little bit on Thursday before we got into our conversation with Casey. And I think we kind of teased that we might hit it today. I just wanted to bring up one thing that Gunn did talk about from that press conference that he did, the press availability, that I thought was really fascinating and a bit underreported because obviously what gets pulled out of that is like what's going to happen with Superman, what's going to happen with Batman, etc. He made this great kind of rally and cry for the centrality of writers in the process of making movies and talked about the main reason why you have so many mediocre superhero movies is because they basically start shooting them without completed scripts or maybe without a script.

Yeah, they storyboard the action scenes before they hire a writer. Right. And he was just like, that's why there's basically superhero fatigue is because the movies aren't as good because they aren't placing an empathic. on telling the story properly and they they get into the end and it turns into people punching each other, you know, across a planet for the last 30 minutes. And I have like, I would say, I would say I would be like to call myself a mild James Gun fan. Like I dig it, but it's not like exactly like my bag. I really like Guardians the first one and I thought, you know, like I've enjoyed

his stuff traditionally, but not like over the mood about it. But I, really would, I salute his statement there. First of all, that's bold to basically, like, take a passive, like, shot at a bunch of, like, his competition, people, like, in other studios doing, doing that work. We all know the movies he's talking about if you just think about them. And I think it's pretty cool to throw out a standard

that you're going to hold the DCU to. And if they do do that, I think it will make up for the fact that, as you and I often say, like, these superhero movies just look like shit to us. So that's part of the hurdle to get over. But if they can start writing third acts and if they start thinking about these things as holistic pieces of dramatic storytelling, at least it will redeem like the sort of massive project that this superhero industrial complex is a little bit for me. I totally agree with you. And again, I think I said this the other day. I'll say it again. like this was a really promising start for a creative enterprise within the, you know, the larger,

it's not even a sandbox, the larger cage of franchise billion dollar entertainment. It's so simple, but it's so fundamental. The idea that he, that everything that he was saying espoused, which is we're going to make a Superman movie because we have something that we're really excited to say about Superman. Yeah. Not because we're, we cleared out a date in 2026. You know, and I know there were creative people who worked on the last generation of DCU movies

and people who love them, and I'm not intentionally trying to antagonize anybody, but as a casual observer of this stuff, my understanding is that there was an Aquaman movie and a Flash movie because they felt they ought to be an Aquaman movie and a Flash movie because they were in the Justice League and they had these actors.

You know, I don't know the creative motivation beyond that. And when you get to the level that those decisions were being made at in the times they were being made, I have empathy for why that is. You know, you'll find the reason later. We'll hire the people to come up with the reasons. But when you start a process, that ass backward, it's not a surprise that confusing, disappointing things result from it. You know, it's just the nature of it. And this is infected Marvel certainly as well.

And so the clarity with which he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, these new properties that are coming out was really welcome. And then for me, the second part that was exciting, and I think we said this was a possibility just from knowing his, I think that we can assume some knowledge of his taste and sensibilities and what shaped him, that for both of the projects, the highest profile projects that were announced, which is his Superman movie. That he wrote, but he may direct, yeah.

Right. And Saffron's like, I'm hoping I can convince James to direct it. It's like, this is like the Dick Cheney Vice Presidential Search. You know, like I, I, does anyone think someone else is directing this movie? And also the, the new DC proper DCU Batman. You know, and again, this is,

he brought a term that the comic books have used called else worlds. Yeah. To describe alternate versions, multiversal. And it's pretty, it's pretty amazing that like Matt Reeves's Batman movie, which is viewed largely as a critical and commercial success,

is now like a specialized project off to the side. You know, well, but I think they did some thinking about why that would be. And both of the projects, which is, I think Superman legacy it's called, and the Brave and the Bold, which is historically a comic book title associated with Batman, are seemed to be drawn from work by Grant Morrison, who I've talked about on this podcast before, I think is one of the true geniuses of our time and the best or one of the best comic book writers alive. And one of the geniuses of Graham Morrison, particularly in their DC run, is kind of the way we talk about Kevin Feigy, but even more imaginative, being like, I understand what's good about this. I understand what's universal

and core, and I'm going to write to that. And I'm going to write to that not using the part of my brain that has made these really transgressive, brilliant, challenging, even some, like violent or disturbing comics, like the Invisibles or what, or Seagai or whatever, transmetropos. No, that was Warren Ellis. But you get my point. Wow. Sorry. No, but I'm just like, Comic book guy

I just came through. Take a seat. Read your bird flu articles. I got something to say. But like the Graham Morris and Frank Quightly comic called All-Star Superman. I talked about this. I'm reading the New York Times bird flu article.

We are not the same. Who's happier? Who's happier, though? I'm the one who's always laughing. Come on. It's true. This All-Star Superman run with beautiful art by Frank Quightly

was just like, Superman is a goofy god. You know, there's something out of step with the Times that was also in the Richard Donner version that were in the Christopher Reeve movie from the 70s. That's what he went on the stage and he was like, that's the Superman that I still love.

And yet, let's do that. That's such a zag. That's different. That's what I think we miss and what we need in these stories. And then The Brave and the Bold, taken from Graham Morrison's recent run on the character in which Batman was a little bit older had gone through some crazy shit, which by the way, rings true.

Yeah. even as a movie fan and finds out that he has a son who's kind of a spitfire named Damien Wayne who then will become Robin. Right. So we're doing Mando.

We're doing Last of Us, right? But with Batman, we haven't done that before. Okay, so now we're doing something different. And also, to your point, the Pattinson Batman is, he's a little bit younger, he's broodier.

That's a different version of the character that I think people can be like, okay, it's not just this is Affleck punching Superman. But the fact that just three months ago we were like, oh, I guess Superman is back in play because the Rock and Henry Cavill share an agent. What I appreciated about this press conference is they never said this,

but I did get the sense that Gunn and Safran were sitting there being like, guys, we should be better than that. Well, no, I think they... No disrespect to those actors. It honestly reminds me... It honestly reminds me of when like a new GM, like a really good new GM comes into a team and is like... I know that everybody has like...

We're going to trade for D. Anthony Milton? No, but like let's say he takes over like a kind of mediocre team. And it's like, I know you guys may have like some personal attachment to Pascal Seaccom, but like look, like we got to rip the bandaid off here and start over and get back to like fundamentals and get some draft picks in here. So you're saying trust the process. That's what you're saying here about the DCU. I guess I am. I never thought I'd hear the day that where I did that. Isn't it wild though to like over the 11 years of this podcast that we ended up when James Gunn, who I believe when we started the podcast was making like trauma show.

Troma movies with porn stars is now like the sage gray beard voice of reason being like, you know what? If you play a DC character on TV, you're also playing them in the movies. Like what a weird world we have that will soon be ended by Chris's bird flu. Speaking of bird flu. I hope this podcast doesn't age poorly. I know. We have like two days before it comes out.

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Where you want to talk pandemics? Let's get into Last of Us. Last of Us, episode four. Andy, I took the liberty to jot down some notes here as a way of recapping this episode, which is called Please Hold My Hand. Would you like me to perform this for you? I love a performance, a CR performance.

So, Last of Us, Episode 4, Please Hold My Hand, Ellie and Joel, pull a reverse dropkick Murphys and ship out of Boston. And we find them in the notorious and well-documented desert. That's between Massachusetts and Kansas. I do want to talk about the Alberta of this show at some point. I guess that's just Ohio.

Anyway, Ellie finds a pristine cassette of Hank Williams' greatest hits, which is a classic way to find cassettes after a zombie apocalypse in 2023. Joel is big mad that it's not Pearl Jam's riot act because he really wanted to spend more time with that one. Ellie pulls the unfrozen caveman lawyer thing about coffee and pornography, and then we all get a download about Joel's brother who dragged him to Boston, join the fireflies because of Marlene, then quit the fireflies for some reason,

and found himself somewhere in Wyoming, which is not very specific. Joel and Ellie go to Kansas City, I believe. Is that right? I thought you were going to begin this by saying, here's how I watch this. I'm not going to make this a big digression. But to me, this episode was really meaningful,

particularly at this time of year, because I viewed it through the lens from the perspective of this is a show about two peace-loving family-oriented Eagles fans who wander in to the hell-scarred dystopia that is Kansas City. Of what was once Burrowhead Stadium? Yeah. And this is how they're treated.

Yeah. You know, the humanity of it is what I'm responding to. But please go on. Okay, so Joel and Ellie go to Kansas City, get into a gunfight with some guys running a slipping Jimmy Con on them. And then they hide out in a building. Said guys belonged to some kind of resistance unit run by a woman named Kathleen, played by Melanie Linsky.

which seems to be doing some truth and reconciliation on Fedra and the people who may have helped them. Mason throws us feet first into this, and we learned that Kathleen is looking for a man named Henry, who she believes ratted on her brother in some capacity. And Kathleen has a Snitch's Get Stitches policy. And she hammers this point home by executing her old pediatrician, which was... Like the obstetrician, like the OBG way and delivered her. And she was just like, nah, dog. So she hammers home at that point with the pediatrician,

and then she sends her whole click out on a search for Henry, believing that he's the one responsible for killing these guys, even though obviously it was Ellie and Joel. While on her hunt, Kathleen and a dude who looks like he really would have enjoyed the Sicario films, find a heaving crater that I imagine hundreds of infected are dormantly waiting to burst out, but Kath is like, that's a future me problem and continues her hunt. Ellie and Joel find some high ground in which to camp out in the form of a tall build, and they exchange puns while Joel wistfully dreams of being able to see flaming lips perform Yoshimi in its entirety,

they are woken by a man and a young boy who I imagine are Henry and his son. This is some of your best work. Thanks. You know, the implication that there is just a mushroom colony ready to burst out of the center of this building did make me think that if Craig Mason and Neil Druckman were a little more brave and a little more bold, they would take Joel. and Ellie to a little town called Kennett Square, Pennsylvania, which you and I know is the mushroom capital of the country, if not the Eastern

Seaboard. So proud of their port-of-God. They just bring their plums to market down in Reading Turban. Can you imagine the first three, four days of this outbreak? Like, remember when the new variant came out and Delta Airlines

was like, this is going to be bad? Or when or when Corona Beer was like, well, It sounds different if you say it in Spanish. Think about my heavy invested in Amacron trucking industries. That was a shame. That was a shame. And frankly, I don't do it enough.

I don't shout out my cousin B1N1, Greenwald. Long time listener. It's a family name. No, I just mean like, can you imagine the first three days where they're like, no, we can pivot. Yeah, no. It's like, I think that we also make our own honey. Yeah.

Hashtag not all mushrooms. right? That would have been tough. Right? Yeah. Guys. Okay. Right.

So off we go to Kansas City. The thing about the show, and this is partially led by you, is that I do want to talk about the content and its characters. But I also want to turn on the bright lights and really just talk about the 2003ness of 2023. Well, now this joke is getting out of hand because now I've created Joel as this guy who did nothing but refresh pitchfork before. When clearly, like, that dude just liked watching, like, I guess like a Stephen Segal movie like face puncher and then going to bed like he was not.

But also isn't it the biggest tragedy of the show that Joel didn't ever see pitchfork when it wasn't them posting gifts of monkeys playing with themselves to review jet albums? Like they don't understand that it became a really sensitive arbiter of like African disco.

Yeah. Like that they, it really evolved. Like he'll never know that. But you did this to me. He doesn't know. You did this to me where I'm watching this episode

and they're walking through a town. are like, okay, so we're going to see some more frozen moments. And obviously a lot of those frozen moments are rictus grins on skeletons as they attempted to escape infected cities. But also, there's little snapshots in time, like the marquee in Kansas City that shows us and reminds us that the last movie ever to be released in the theaters was Ridley Scott's matchstick. I know. Do you know what's wild about that too? No more movies. That's the interpull of cinema.

And if that had been the last Ridley Scott movie, it would have been like, wow, that guy had a really prolific career. He did a lot. And instead he made like 30 more movies since then. But I'm also, but that did send me down a rabbit hole of like, oh my God. Like, Joel doesn't know how the Lord of the Rings trilogy ended. Like he never saw Return of the King. He doesn't, that said, Peter Jackson probably finished the movies. Yeah, he shot two and three.

I think he shot two and three concurrently, didn't he? But also, he probably doesn't know this happened. Wait, what do you mean? This didn't hit New Zealand. Are you just making that call? No, I'm just guessing it didn't. So you think Auckland is just like thrott. right now?

It's just humming. He's just like still pouring over the get-back footage. He's like, this is really going to move people who remember the Beatles. Master and Commander never came out, lost in translation. Like, I'm looking at the 2003 Oscar Noms. Like, there was some good movies. Well, 2003 Oscars would be for the 2002 movies. So you mean...

Oh, Chris, how dare you? I'm looking at the correct Oscars. Oh, okay. I did this. I'm looking at the Oscar ceremony that happened February 29th, 2004. Oh, for the 2003 films. of the year the world died due to much more than that. And you know what?

Sea Biscuits not win in this race. Sorry. Okay. We could talk about, like what kind of America is like Interpol and Matchstick men are the dominant cultural artifacts? I fucking really like this show and I really like this episode, but I got to get this off my chest.

Okay. Finally, some honesty on this podcast. They shot this show in Calgary, right? Or Alberta. I think that's one of the same thing. They're playing a little fast and loose with the way the world looks outside of Massachusetts. Oh, man, yeah. So I think that that's supposed to be like a kind of desolate strip of Ohio or Indiana or Michigan, I guess, like when they first start getting a siphoning gas and stuff like that.

Right. That dude is fucking burning rubber. He's like, yeah, we'll be in Wyoming tomorrow. It's so far. It's so far. Do you know how long it takes to like drive to Chicago? It takes a long time. But also, Chris, like, you're, we skipped over this last week.

There was a Chiron that said 10 miles west of Boston. And it was just like. And it looks like Vancouver Island. It's like, we're big fun lives. The last time I was 10 miles west of Boston, I saw a dude in a Bobby Orr jersey just openly pissing in front of a store 24. You know what I mean? Like, it is, it is not rural.

And it's not one of those like in 20 years, nature will heal itself. Like, that's not a thing. You could, there's probably still like a legal seafood there. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's not accurate. But they made it to Kansas City without any problems until one little tunnel. Yeah. So I thought that that tunnel was, we've mentioned this a couple of times, but it bears repeating

that one of the things that I actually find referring to, I suppose if all television was like this or if this was the only kind of, you know, if this show is on for years and years and years, I might get a little bit bored of it. But after many, many years of watching people be like, I need to drive over to this person's house and talk to them about whether or not we're bad men. I really enjoy the puzzle solving task oriented forward momentum of the show a lot. You know, and so the idea of, okay, this tunnel is this. You can't drive through. this tunnel. You could walk through it, but that would probably be dangerous. Or if you drive back all the way around to get back on another highway, that's hours and hours and hours. So what you're going to do is go through downtown Kansas City with a person who's only been in a car for two days of her life. Do you think the people that Joel killed were the get-up kids? Are you going to talk about this show at all? Are we just going to do this? I think it's because I just want to know so that I could be prepared in that regard.

I'm just wondering. Like, they were having a moment, you know? They were going to sign to a major label that the mushrooms happened and they could have joined a militia. It's not out of the question. Do you think it was Chief's legend Tony Gonzalez? These are all fair questions and we will one day put them to Craig Mason. Do you think it was kick returning legend Dante Hall who woke them up at the end of

nothing would bring me greater joy than if they just sprinkled in like one rando quasi-celeb whose life just didn't really work out. Dick Vermil was coaching that chief's team, by the way. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Good. That's really all we have to say about that.

Young quality control coach, Nick Siriani hadn't yet arrived. No, I think Nick Siriani was gooning out as a high schooler back then. So they get to Kansas City, there's the slip-in-jimmy thing. I do want to talk about one thing in particular that I thought was excruciating, but again, like such a great choice for this show. I feel like it's not necessarily accurate or even respectful of Mazin and Druckman and their writers and everyone's process to pinpoint moments where it's not as if they went through the perceived expectations of this type of show and just chose option B every time.

Although if they did, Dainu, like I think that's a nice way to approach material that's been well-tried. But what really sticks with me are these moments when they make definitive decisions that not just work within the world of this show,

but really do signify a creative and aesthetic pivot from expectations. And for me, the moment is when Ellie uses the gun that we've seen her have. I don't know how extensive a presence

Chekhov has in the curriculum of Fedra schools. But at least they like really laid it on thick. Like I was like, good. It's not just like she peeks in and the guns there. And like it's like she's she does the Travis Bickle in the beginning of the episode. She's going to use this gun. And then she does use the gun. And she uses the gun. Again, they make the right choices.

She uses the gun in a moment where it does save Joel. And it is, you would have, you know, you and I have not lived through a dystopia. you would be as discussed well positioned to thrive, I would not. But like this seemed like an appropriate usage. And then she has basically paralyzed a scared kid. Yeah. And we hear his horrifying screams and as he begs for his life and begs for his mother.

And I'm glad the show did that. You know, I'm glad the show did that. You see the tastefulness and the consideration in a lot of different moments. You see it when we see, you know, Kathleen is pointing the gun at the pediatrician. When she goes back, we know what she's going to do, but we don't see that because we don't need to. Yeah. That's a good decision. Similarly here, this show needed this moment, not just for Ellie's development and our understanding of Ellie and her and Joel's dynamic, but I think for our own moral calculus of what we value in the fictional world of the show.

I was really, I was upset by it, of course, but I was also really blown away by the specificity of it. I'll tell you another thing that I'm blown away by, which is that the show hitting the absolute jackpot when casting on the margins of it. Yeah, let's talk about that. Obviously, Murray Barlett and Nick Offerman in episode three got the Hosanas and got the attention and deservingly so. But like, this Melanie Lindski part is not like a, on its surface, it's so far a big part. People who've played the video game, maybe Kathleen's got like a huge arc or something like that. I have no idea. But she now, and it always has,

but just like seeing her play so against type for one thing. You know, I mean, obviously in yellow jackets, she's up to some dark stuff, but on the surface is this suburban, like, housewife. To see this woman who was essentially like Josh Brolin from Sicario walking around Kansas City and marshalling this militia, essentially, is, and she just has so much screen presence.

And you can tell that she is running through, like, when that guy is like, I delivered you and she actually cracks for a second, but then is brought back outside and sees like these dead bodies and just like quickly comes back in and just assassinates this guy. She has like this screen presence now that I think is, it's awesome when you follow an actor for with Melanie Linsky. It's been more than a decade and watch them emerge into another level of their career. And I think somehow over the course of the last few years, especially with the notoriety. of Yellow Jackets. Like, seeing her in The Last of Us, I'm like, this is amazing. Like, Melanie Linsky is now like this badass. I think when you were talking before about being a good GM, I mean, that is at play here

too, where you take someone who's a clubhouse favorite or a, you know, a player's player, like a chef's chef, like someone who everyone, actors love Melanie Linsky, people who pay close attention and love her, not just personally, although she seems like a lovely person, but she is one of those actors who's, like Andrea Reisbrough, frankly, who's like reputation within industry circles so far outstripped celebrity. And when you're making a show like this with a budget like this, that's when you can afford to take the chances.

And it's not like a risk, but you just take the opportunity, let's say, and say like, I bet she wants to do something she's never done before. And you have the confidence that she's going to be great at it. But she still has that, that, that, that, that, quality of like humanity. Like that's a recognizable person doing unrecognizable things. Instant. It's exactly that.

And I think that, again, like, you know what? I don't want to keep digging on The Walking Dead because that's something the Walking Dead kind of realized early on too. Yeah. With what's the, what's, oh my God, I'm blanking on the character. Carol? The Carol character. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Not just a tribute to the actor, but like this is someone who ostensibly was not like Chris Ryan was not built for this, was not made for this moment, but makes choices, surprises herself and others, but never loses that piece of her that's like, this wasn't what I was supposed to be doing, you know? This is how Chris lives every day being like, if only, bring it on weather balloons. Yeah, I loved it. It's also, frankly, such a smart play to be, So, like, when she shows up, there's a, I'm in, you know, and, but if I wasn't, and you see someone, they get to a town, oh, and there's a militia, and they're going to come in, I mean, you know,

I don't say this dismissively because this exists in all media, but I was going to use the term video game logic, like, well, there have to be some bad guys on this level. But the bad guys, though, think they're bad guys. They think that they're the oppressed good guys, yeah. But also, instantly, it becomes more interesting if it's a Melanie Linsky. Yes. It's just more interesting. And now I'm paying attention. And that's part of the calculus when you're putting the show together. I thought that was really cool. I also thought, you know, it was interesting when we spoke to Casey. He was talking about the original pilot of this show ending with Joel throwing the body of the kid into the burn pit. Which is, you know, hard to imagine you coming back for that one. In artistic choice. But basically like talking about the, you know, how much attention is paid to the structure of the episodes. And I thought this was really well done.

in the sense that there were different moments when it could have ended. I wasn't like clock watching when I was watching it. I was enjoying it, but there were moments when I, the pulsating mushroom monster or whatever is underneath.

Okay, are we ending there? Are we ending when they're hunkering down for the night? What are, when Joel laughs for the first time? Again, just really smart, creative television storytelling. Put the pun book in there. Maybe that's in the game too, but either way, it's great character stuff.

It's subtle. It's not fancy. Like, you see what's happening, but it's going to work. And then you get Pedro Pascal to laugh. And remember, he's a charming guy. He was Oberon in Game of Thrones. He's always cracking people up under that Mandalorian suit. The twos of times he's been on set, people can't stop raving about him.

It could have ended there. But, no, you end with the discovery of the missing guy with the sun. We saw the drawing of them as superheroes, and that is how they're dressed. And the humanity of it. And again, the show does these little subtle building blocks that really work, which are what you just spoke of, which is everyone thinks they're the good guy. Yeah. And then I also think that the juxtaposition of the two sort of tracks of storytelling style, like with Joel and Ellie, he is essentially explaining the world to a person who

every experience is the first time they've experienced it. Right. So you can talk about siphoning gas. You can talk about where you're from. You can talk about what happened when the, you know, fungal outbreak first started and what Fedra did. And you get the, you get the, these sort of like Wikipedia entries of history, but then Mason still has Chernobyl in his bag, so he can just throw us into Kansas City and not explain why these people are hunting people who seem to have helped Fedra and what Fedra did to those people and who Henry is, and is Henry so powerful that he's sending Merks in. Like, all that stuff is you're spinning around, but I like, as you know, I love being thrown into a story head first in like the jargon.

and the history is already in the making. So that kind of those two different styles, I think is really effective in the show. Yeah, and just the queasy making effect on the audience in a really impressive way as you realize that you've been in the car with your new friends and your new friends just gunned down people

who were just doing their best. Just trying to make a buck or make a whatever. Like that's just what else are they supposed to be doing? But it's all live ammo. Would you? Would you get annoyed by the puns if you were rolling with a 14-year-old across the country? Would you just be like you got a table of puns for a little while? I mean, well, I have two things to say.

One, you know, I don't have teenagers yet. So, but my impression is if they're talking to me at all, it's a win. So I have to consider that as part of my thinking. I will say that I am at the point where the children, like they love something called hamster banana, which is a one minute and 40 second novelty song with an extreme auto tune that I'm not going to sing. But imagine, but imagine baby shark, but weaponized from, like, from the same viral lab in Wuhan where there was a leak. Do you know what I mean? Like, where they were like, we, we could do this, but we could make it, make it much, much worse.

And just straight out of the pangolin. And I try just, just, just, fresh cut. You know when they have the prosciutto, like the ham leg and they just shave? Like that's we're talking with the Pangolin. Like just the freshest cuts. And I'm trying to strike this balance of like I can't lose. Like I can't

let them see how much pain playing this music causes me because I think that's part of the pleasure. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I do think so I'm very sympathetic to Joel especially as he's trying to keep them both alive. in an apocalypse that what's coming out of the backseat

might be extremely annoying. And I also related to Joel because this is not, I wasn't even going to bring this up, but I did wake up in a cold sweat at 2.30 a.m. last night with the hamster banana song in my head. Which then, there was no other choice,

but then to grab my rifle and patrol the perimeter because what else was I supposed to do? The only other thing I wanted to bring up, aside from obviously the cinematic history that was lost due to this event, is I'm nervous that I eat a little bit like Ellie. Oh.

So you're watching her? Like she's just crushing Chef Boy R.D. And he's just like, I slow down. And she's just like, I am slowing down. I've been finding recently that I am done eating before everybody. And I wanted to just do this with you

because you've known me for such a long time. Am I a fast eater? Wow. I can't say that I've noticed that. Okay. And that's all that matters. Because if you would notice, you would have been like, yes.

Well, there's a couple things. I think listeners know that you and I are big fans of small plates restaurants. I just like... It just comes out to share. They need to course it out, though. I can't course it out for them. No, no, no. But like, if that's cool, like, things will come out when they're ready from the kitchen,

you know, things are made to be shared. So because that involves the two of us or like with whoever else we're with, like somehow splitting three scallops five ways, the speed doesn't factor into it. But I, but that makes me curious that. But that makes me curious that. That's why I think the only true test of this will be on Super Bowl Sunday, we each at the same moment crack our cans of SpaghettiOs and then see what happens. I don't know.

I just feel like I'm getting a ferocious appetite as I get older. Are you getting picked on for this? Are people being like, are you taking food off others' plates? It's more than I am like, oh, I'm done eating and my wife or, whoever I'm with is still like chatting and like sort of still grazing on their their salad or something like that. I'm like, oh, God, I thought I just just bodied this. No, no, here's what I'll say. I don't think of you as a fast eater. I think of you as a strong decision maker. And what I mean is when you're done with anything, whether it's a meal or a conversation, you're already in the

next room. You know what I mean? So like, so we could all be eating like when we watch the NFC championship game. Like you kindly brought bagels, which was. was great. I did. And then I think we were all eating bagels. And I don't think you were eating faster, but you decided you were done and the plate was gone. You were sitting back and it was done. Yes. And I rarely see you pick it back up again. Yeah, I'm also like a big like put my napkin on the plate to be like, okay, now I'm done. I don't know. I don't know. I just, this was just what? And you called, you, you called our server over and you're like, didn't you see that I put the napkin and Zach, our host was like, sir, this is modern Arby's.

Anything else you wanted to hit from this episode? It's just incredible because you've just now asked the eyes of a nation to focus on you while dining. Like you're about to travel internationally and... The eyes of the United Kingdom can have to keep their eyes on me now. You'll be at a pub having a nice warm lamb salad with mint and peas or something. I'm getting Sunday roast on Sunday. Well, time yourself.

Frankly, that's the only thing to be said and report back. All right? Anything else you want to think of this episode? No, it was exciting just to say that I liked that it was essentially a cliffhanger within the micro-universe of this episode. I'm happy we're going to be here for a minute because we've been moving. And we love Kansas City. We just want Kansas City to be it. We want it to be well represented, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, as it truly is. Like, okay, so the timing of this episode, we're recording this before you. on your trip. This will air Monday. When is your live event? Do you want to, do you want to plug that? Oh, thanks. We're like, we're 50 minutes into the podcast. I mean, but I'm doing a live event with James Lawrence Alcott as part of Pod Live in London. It's in Kings Cross. You can look at my Twitter feed and see ticket information. We're talking football, but, well, soccer, but we're also talking lots of other stuff. And it's part of a suite of shows that we're doing over there,

all the Ringer podcast network soccer-based shows. So Stodio, righty's house counter-pressed foscast and then non-socker like rugby pod and then james and i'll be doing a show as well so uh Thursday and Friday night in London if you happen to be free and and want to come see us does James watch the sheridan verse shows like can you finally we haven't gotten to that that part in a relationship where we're talking about pop culture you know i say i save that part of myself for you thank you i think traditionally sports and pop culture are a nice combo um we can uh wrap it up there how about that I think that's fine. I think we've done our work here.

Okay. I hope you have a lovely week without me. I will be present on the Thursday show, but not recording it with you. Have you started to think about what you're going to do for the opening 20? Is it going to be a solo greenwald shot? You love to be surprised. And you know what I've learned? Kaya also loves it. The way Kaya asked me yesterday in the studio if I had plans for Thursday yet,

just made me feel that she's confident that I do. And that me not telling her is chill and good. Everybody have a great week, and we will talk to you soon. Safe travels, Perensky's.