The Watch - ‘The Last of Us’ Season 2 Premiere and Lessons Learned From 'The Pitt'

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about some lessons that TV executives could take away from the success of ‘The Pitt’ and why the show took off in such an organic way (8:50). Then they discuss some recent movie trailers that were released for ‘Mission Impossible—The Final Reckoning’ and ‘The Phoenician Scheme’ (27:51). Finally, they talk about the Season 2 premiere of ‘The Last of Us’ and the secret that a lot of this season seems to hinge on (32:12). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the brand new Zach Lowe show. That's right. I'm back to have the same in-depth NBA conversations you're used to. We're going to talk about the games. Yeah, the games, the X's and O's, the drama, the trades, the playoffs are coming up. And now you get to see every episode in full on video on Spotify and on my own YouTube channel. Episodes drop every Monday and Thursday with a collection of guests you're going to love. So make sure you follow and subscribe to the brand new Zach Lowe show.

on Spotify or wherever you watch or listen to your podcast. Let's go! Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew,

the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, very concerned about Jackson, Wyoming infrastructure. It's Andy Greenwald. You're playing it cool, but we just got an earthquake alert here. We did get an earthquake alert. I haven't felt it yet. Are we sure they're real?

I think it was Katie Perry returning to Earth. That's right. My heart. It's a beautiful thing. Welcome to The Watch. I'm emotionally empty. I'm a vacant, hollow mess. Yeah. Because I watched the Masters yesterday.

Can you, okay, can you, I feel like I, there's a percentage of the audience, even that might be like me, like generally sports aware, but completely golf ignorant. Can you give me some sort of pop culture analogy or some way to understand what happened because I didn't know that Rory McElroy

was lacking? a green jacket? He was lacking one, yeah. For the career Grand Slam, so that means he'd won all the majors, but he had been waiting 11 years to complete it. The last time he won a major was 11 years ago. Oh, so it was increasingly like he wouldn't. He tends to basically burn hot

and then explode on impact, you know, like... Like my takes? No blue origin, I guess. Careful. Careful about what? I don't know. Honestly, come get me, man. Oh, I didn't mean careful. careful, like, careful Jeff might hear you.

I just meant, like, do we have the full story about Blue Origin? They're back. They're okay? Yeah. Then their suits look good? I don't know. I didn't check it out. Okay, please continue.

Rory McElroy is essentially, like, the most pure manifestation of, like, the mental game. Like, you can see, he has every golf shot. He is the, he's probably one of the two or three best golfers alive. Probably one of the two or three best golfers of my lifetime. But, like, we'll just get tight. And screw up. And he'll hit the greatest shot you've ever seen and then the worst shot you've ever seen.

Not, I mean, my definition of the worst shot you've ever seen is much wider than Roy McElroy's. But yeah, dude, it was just like watching a guy almost die and then turn into an angel. Oh, so episode 9 of the pit. Okay, thank you. And it's like five hours. It takes so long.

So you just sat there. You know what's funny? I just sat there at eight chips and and Zinn for so long that when he won What did you do? I thought I was having renal failure. I had so much salt in my bloodstream

and so much nicotine. I could just like feel my carotid going. It was fucking gross. What's beautiful about this. First of all, I'm very happy for you. I don't even know if I like Rory that much. I mean, like, I'm like, I like, I like there are other golfers I like Max Homo,

but like, I just, needed this to be done. I needed him to do it. What's amazing is, and I think people who listen know this, that we have a robust level of communication usually throughout the weekend, the weekend. It was quiet this one. It was a quiet Sunday. So I was like, oh, maybe Kristen Phoebe

are like strolling in the Japanese gardens out of the Huntington, you know, like maybe there's a day up into the sky looking for Katie Perry. Yeah, just like thinking about it, but no, no, you were just locked in. Andy, today on the pod, we're going to talk about the last of us, obviously, the first episode of the new season.

You can hit us up at The Watch at Spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram at The Watchpod underscore, and you can watch us on YouTube at the Ringer Dash TV channel or on Spotify, where you're listening to us. I wanted to ask you a couple of... Oh, can I do one house cleaning thing? Just like one personal thing? Yeah, all right.

I have mixed feelings about this, but I know. Well, you know... We're finding out whose pod this really is. I'm not going to veto you. Oh, I appreciate that. Well, we could edit this out later. I'm not saying this is like a clip. I just want to say that like, you know,

I try to just stay pure in my ivory tower, you know, with just with my own feelings and reactions to things. But I did get the general vibe that people, some people were very, very angry at me for not liking a show that they liked. And then last week, I heard that they were angry at me

for liking a show that they didn't like. Which one was that? White Lotus finale. Yeah. So, and you know, this isn't my first rodeo with criticism and things. And that's fine.

So I put a, little man carved out of a lone star can in front of you. Can I draft the beer first? And, you know, what's also not unfamiliar to me is people, you know, ascribing motive, you know, that like it can't just be that it's my opinions and people in my real life know that I generally am incapable of not being honest about my opinions. Perhaps to my detriment or the detriment of the evening's conversation. And, you know, some people are like, oh, he's just a.

contrarian. He does the opposite of what everyone else says, and that's why he does it. And, you know, fine, think what you will. I'm just out here doing my best. But I did see one specific thing that I have to refute, which was someone's evidence that I am just a niger contrarian, is that my favorite radio head album is Amnesiac. Uh-huh. Whose favorite radio head album is Amnesiac? Did you ever see that? Never. In fact, on this podcast, five, could be 10 years ago, don't remember. I nervously ventured the take that maybe in Rainbows

was their best album. And you said, yeah, of course it is. Everyone thinks that. I was nervous about the extremity of that take. So I'm just here to say, nobody... I would rather you not do this. You know, like, I don't want you... I know it's hard not to look at the response

to the response and everything. I get it. I know why you want to be engaged with this content, but... It's poison, and I generally don't. It's a small minority of the listenership. and I don't, you know, if you're like just a guy and you're going to a new iPhone factory that just opened up, you know? In America?

Yeah. Is they hiring? You're probably like, I want to hear these guys talk about The Last of Us. Yeah, and we're going to. I just, oh, I didn't care about what people say. It was more that that was a bridge too far. Amnesiac. Right?

That was what broke the camel's back. Yes. Okay. I can't let that stand. People out there slandering my radio head takes. I was, I actually, you still think it's in rainbows? I'm like coming back around.

to thinking it's actually okay computer. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, things, over time, yeah. Even Rainbows was a sincere take before, but, you know, while you're online reading all these takes, I'm at the Bernie rally, just being like, what do you guys

think? Is in Rainbow's still? Are you calling Coachella the Bernie rally? No, it was downtown. He was downtown. Yeah, but that's not the one you were at. You were front road to see Clero. I know. Oh, I watch golf. Okay, buddy. I've actually never I couldn't have Hal McLero's song.

What do you think is her best album? Let's go. Blue Origin. I think that in terms that our listeners will understand, your our feeling about in rainbows was the moment when the droplet from the wave was at its highest point. Is this a white load of a white load?

Yes. Yeah. But now we have returned to the beautiful churning ocean. Yeah, which is okay, computer. Come on. Okay. I did have some questions about the pit. Okay. Joe Reed had an interesting article in Vulture this weekend.

That was about the pit, but specifically also, the pit specifically, broadly speaking, this moment in TV. He talks a little bit about Paradise, about Dave the Jackal, about, you know, some of the network bones being refitted for a streaming present and streaming future. But as we've kind of read all these post-mortem interviews with the likes of John Wells and Noah, who came on our show, which was so nice, and I please encourage everybody to check that interview out. It was a lovely man,

and it was just an incredible experience to talk to him. Some of the lessons that are coming out of the pit, whether or not they're replicable, because I'm always interested to know whether or not... Hollywood is actually, like, nine to 15 months in front of everything, and they're like, well, yeah, like, we knew this was coming,

so we've been planning for this. Or are people sitting at home and saying, I have a job as an executive at Hulu or an executive at, Paramount Plus for now. And I see what happened with the pit. And it makes me think this, right? It makes me wonder whether or not,

I have a couple of ideas here. But I wanted to just sort of, do you think that the pit was such a significant moment where 10 million people per episode are watching? It's a 15 episode run. And apparently grew week to week. I'm sure it did. And I'm sure it's also going to have like a pretty healthy rewatch

and lifespan over the next couple of months. And then it comes back in January. So I had a couple of things I wanted to bounce off of you and you tell me if it's going to stick to the wall or kind of slide off. But do you think we have hit some untapped interest in more episodes? For the longest time, we've been like, oh, it doesn't need to be this long, it's stretched too long,

this is filler, this is filler. And I think that there are episodes of the pit that in terms of their intensity feel like filler, but don't feel that way in terms of their quality or in terms of their importance to the overall story. Are there shows that we've watched recently that you could be like, oh, I would love a 15 episode run of?

You're asking me that cold, so I can't. I don't expect you to necessarily... I think maybe I don't mean it, maybe like dope thief should be 22 episodes, but I'm going to stop you there. Dope thief should have been four or five episodes, and I still like it. But still, it's like,

I think it's interesting to think about what shows have we been watching, what kinds of shows that we've been watching. I mean, I think that, well, there's a lot to unpacking in what you were saying. One of the most important things that I think we have gotten away from and not maybe for the reasons people expect is that the beauty of this streaming moment is that series or seasons can be the shape that they ought to be. And I think in the earlier days of this brave news streaming world, we did see a lot of variants.

There were some shows that probably in the beginning on HBO were still doing like 12 to 15 episode seasons and there were shorter seasons. In the last five, six years, eight has become very much the new normal. normal. And eight can be perfect. Eight can also be frustrating. And I think the reasons for eight increasingly are budgetary, not necessarily creative, because shows simply cost too much. Right. Remember the rent is too damn high guy? Yeah. That guy would make a killing in Hollywood right now. So I think that that has informed the episode order. And I think that people are starting to, audiences are starting to chaf against it, even just anecdotally, when you see people responding to or speculating on upcoming TV shows, I've started to see people say, like, oh, it'll probably be eight anyway,

you know, regardless, because that just seems to be. And anytime people are assuming something or getting rolling their eyes at an assumed limit or expectation, that's definitely a problem. The first question you were asking, though, I think about, like, the developmental impact of the pit, I think it's also a two-part answer. I think the first part is the institutional and existential and structural changes that beget the pit started a while ago in order for the pit to exist. And we are already starting to see the fruit of some of that, whether it's like multiple on order spin-offs across NBC and Peacock, whether it's Pulse on Netflix, which I think neither of us have really engaged with. I watched the first one. That was good for me.

Got it. So that started a while ago, this idea that, well, we've got to start to reinstate to costs, we've got to start to, you know, re-engage with audiences on a more regular calendar as opposed to just whenever creatives feel like it. So those things already started to, those things were already starting to take root when the strike happened, which is now two years ago. I think the difference is, as with everything creative, execution is everything. The pit not only delivered on the floor of its promise, 15 pretty entertaining, episodes about a hospital, it far blew past any expected ceiling in that people love the show. And people love it on multiple levels. They love it for the, again, known please earmuffs, the Crichton

estate, the ERness of it, the week-to-week 90s of it. But they're also loving it for kind of prestigious reasons. Like this show actually has something to say about our healthcare system right now, or this show is surprising me with the way that it's conducting itself and conducting the story orchestra over this experience week-to-week or introducing us to Even the way Noah was talking about, like, when we asked him about, without getting into pit spoilers, about Collins and her... What happens with her last few episodes. What happens with her last few episodes? The sophistication with which he talked about that as a dramatic turn, rather than, you know, like, isn't it crazy that she didn't turn her phone on?

It's like, no, this needed to happen because we needed to pull away this guy's support system. And I think that, you know, as with anything successful, most people will take the wrong lessons from it. One of the lessons of the pit is John Wells really is the maestro of the ship. You know, like he knows how to do story and execute on story on a level that not many producers know how to do. This is a little inside baseball, but like within the showrunner community, like he is a god. Like he does these very beloved and eagerly attended workshops for first-time showrunner. runners on like, okay, here's really what the job is. Here's how you do budgets. Here's how you communicate with your staff or your creative team. So he really is the Dr. Robbie of the TV game,

and there aren't a lot of him. But I think just in terms of what's happening on a today level, which means a 2027 level for what's going to be on television, I do think that the same people who maybe when shows like The Pit or Pulse were announced two years ago were rolling their eyes being like oh here comes this is phase one of the great contraction all of the thing you know all of our grand plans for making this like the dynamic autourist medium

of the whatever like that that creative class of people and executive class of people are watching the show and it's the only show they really are liking and responding to and that kind of story engagement with like look what they look what can be delivered upon I think that's going to start to infiltrate all manner of shows. It's not just the

boy Casey looks really smart for asking them to do 15 and putting them into production and green lighting the second season, whatever. The shareholders are thrilled about that. And I think audience members and Mac subscribers are thrilled about that. But I think, I was sort of touching on this with my optimism, my weird optimism last week. Yeah, this is what made me think of this topic in the first place. Yeah, I just genuinely, when you talk to people at like the hip or cooler streamers or studios or whatever, like producers, they're watching The Pit too. And it's reminding them of why they like TV.

The streamers where they were all at Clara over the weekend. The cool, yeah. Those streamers. And then they just drove straight to Salt Lake City for the AOC rally. That's right. There's a lot of crossover. Anyway, yeah, I think that what's fascinating about the pit and why we're still talking about it on Monday is that there is a industry story and then there is a creative artistic story. I would like to throw one more thing at you.

This is sort of paraphrasing a thing I saw online. I can't remember, it was like kind of like happening either on Reddit or on Twitter, but people were talking about the way the pit put an emphasis on work and the depth of drama that you could take out of a workplace, whereas a lot of shows are like, well, it's about these people, but we're just as interested in their home life. And I was kind of thinking about this on how you could have applied this to Lioness or so many different shows where my interest in the pit was only deepened by the amount of minutiae we got to see these people perform aside from reacting to a mass casualty event or performing surgery

in a way that was risky or that was rare. I was like, I'm deeply into knowing how Whitaker has to go exchange his scrubs, you know, and what it takes. You have to have a pair to go in so that you could get a pair out and everything like that. And I think a lot of shows could really stand to dive deeper rather than go wider. This is a smart observation. I'm trying to think of like an accurate, I'm trying to think of a specific show that I'm like, I wish this show would go further into it.

Because every show is different. Obviously, I think the pit's compression led to that. You know, if you have, the pit takes place over three days of a weekend and they go home and come back, you might go to the bar with Robbie, you might take the train with Santos or whatever. But if you have to keep them there, then that's going to have like, inevitably there's going to be a trickle-down effect

where you're like, oh, now I know every hallway, now I know every nook and cranny. I know how the day is accumulated on Dana. But I think a lot of shows could stand to focus and go burrow deeper into this. I think broadly, I think it's a really good observation because too often the, well, let's find out what really makes them tick is just kind of, at this point, it's lazy. It's like, we can humanize

the person by showing them another part of their lives or another facet of their personality, and we can thus, you know, justify, explain, or as we were saying, in the case of your friends and neighbors, a show I like, so I don't mean to use it as a straw man argument, but the introduction of the John Hamm character's sister feels like there's enough there. And yet it, and so you notice it as a, you see the story spackle or the emotional work that it's doing, and not necessarily, at least through one episode or two episodes, it felt like it was kind of diminishing my enjoyment of the main story, which was enough.

I think the argument you would get into is how many workplaces are as dramatically compelling. Spotify? A thousand percent. Every day I come in, I'm like, wait, I can't walk here anymore? Oh, there's popcorn today. I can't wait to have snacks Thursday. And there's nothing. but also with the constant influx of new characters and new situations and new dynamics,

I'll turn it back to you. Taylor Sheridan has a formula that works. Yes. That's all except that. Moving on. See, this is the kind of reaching across the aisle that we need to do. 100%. 100%.

That's why I call upon you and my good friend Cash Patel at the FBI to put a stop to this. Would Lioness be better or would it be frankly intolerable if we never went home to Dr. Dave Annabelle and the handsome, you know, the handsome husband doctor and that whole part of her life? I think one of the things that makes him so unique, Taylor Sheridan, is that whether or not it's real or not the no-notes feeling that his shows have. and he does things where you're like, this is actually quite poor, but I can tell no one stepped in and said, you know this plotline needs to connect to this plotline at some point. And he's just like, no, they don't.

This is just me going and painting in green up here and then painting in blue down here. And I kind of like that he gets to do that. And obviously I have a interest in a lot of the subject matter that he writes about. But I don't know what the sort of home life of Joe gives us in lioness. Zoe Saldani.

Whereas, like, if you just spent more time explaining, interrogating, going deeper, telling me more about what she does on a day-to-day basis

when she's not taking part in single-person coups of countries. Single-use coups. She's like, I'm going. And then it's like,

all, we'll go with you. But, like, for a second there, it's like, I think she's going to a ramp by herself. Kind of reminds me of your relationship

to Sinabun, on 95 in the old days. But I'm getting gas. You'd be like, I'm going in. Okay, I guess I'm going in too. I could stop her Roy Rogers. Oh my God. Yeah, and by the way, I don't disagree with your point.

I mean, I think that one of the things, like, generally, when you look at TV development, there are things that happen all the time. And it's not like a bad faith thing. It's just like, how can I make this vessel that I'm trying to write to a pilot as a load bearing as possible? How many different types of stories can I put into it? How many different looks or angles or potential audience members can I open it up to? And the more successful development processes narrow it down to be like, well, what do you want the show to be about and what's the best version of it? All of that said, one of the reasons that we genuinely love art, whether it's paintings or it's landman.

I love paintings. Is, okay, someone else, a distinct consciousness from mine with his or her own unique point of view is sharing his or her soul via his or hers. curiosity and interest. I like looking this way at something. Sure. Right? And so that's true for Taylor Sheridan, who is as interested in the oil rights in Texas

as he is in elders going to strip clubs, as it is with the coastal Taylor Sheridan, Mike White, and what he did was season 3 of the White Lotus, right? And that is one of the same reasons why I was like, oh, that's what he's, that's what he's interested in.

On vacation, it's felt a disturbance in the forest. I just feel like I just feel like I just got insulted. Do you think he's going to clap back? I don't know. No, but that is 100% true. But I also think that, and this is to its credit, like the pit is a different machine.

It's designed differently. It's collaborative. You know, it's, I was just trying to like ascribe some sort of authorial voice to John Wells, but that's not exactly it. John Wells is the project manager, essentially. He's the Billy Bob Thornton of that show. And there are a lot of people creatively, giving their all to it collectively for the pursuit of,

it's just, it's interesting because it becomes, it's like the best shows are a very healthy marriage between creativity, soul, art, and design. And you can't really short shrift one side of the other. And when they work in concert, you don't really notice it. And the pit is so expertly designed as a vessel, and then they filled it so beautifully. And I think that that is,

repeatable. But it is not like plug and play. It is not like, now we'll do 15 episodes of cops. I just think that there were a couple of things about it that I thought were worth keeping talking about. I wanted to ask you briefly before we get into Last of Us, though,

because for I think the last couple of episodes, we've been like, oh, let's talk about some of the movie trailers that came out recently. I don't know. Like, you have not really done the movies this year. Like gone to them? Yes. I haven't even seen Minecraft, thank. Did you see Black Bad yet?

No. You will love Black Bag so much. But we talked about that. I had a free night. I was like, maybe I'll go see Black Bag. And you were like, my brother, I will be enjoying the on-demand services of this film. You said like you were paying for it. I was going to watch it with my mom.

Yeah. We were trying to make me feel bad. I wasn't like Chris killed cinema. I do feel bad. It's like I stand by. I'm like Steven Soderberg's like number one guy. Yeah. He doesn't know it, but I am.

I think he probably knows. He had a little prickle on the back of his neck. And he's like, someone. liked me too much. I saw presence in the movie theater. How was that? That was great. Good. Yeah. I've seen two Steven Soderberg movies this year. One in the theater, one at home.

Okay. You don't have to prove yourself to me. Okay. I'm your friend. You would like it. What of the stuff that's come out, so we've got Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning, the Phoenician scheme. Well, I mean, Eddington trailer came out today. I don't know if you watch that. Big Asterhead over here. Are you pumped for sinners?

Are you pumped in... I'm curious about sinners. Where are we out with it? I'm very excited for it, but I'm that type of guy. I mean, the overlaps between sinners and from dust till dawn seem very evident. You're not dissuading me at all. Yeah. Yeah, my only bump was that he's twins in it. Okay.

Do you like twin performances? No. Are you fucking kidding me? You love twin performances. Okay. All right. Are you being serious right now? I know.

I know you. I'm more out on it than you. Are you trolling me? No. You know I could barely watch the deuce. You know I hate twins. Oh, right, I forgot. I thought you were about to say, like,

the Tom Hardy as the craze. No, it's not. I find it to be one of the most disorienting. That's why you didn't like the deuce. Yeah, I liked the deuce, you know, like I tell people I did, but. Here's a record. Radical honesty. Okay.

I hate twins. Not in real life. I don't really know any, but. Well, self-selecting. I do not like it when actors are like, and then I'm going to play my own twin. Yeah, I think it's a little bit indulgent. Yeah. But in this case, you're okay with it?

Well, I like vampires. So, yeah. I would like to see your big board. Do you what I mean? Like, what are you looking for most in a movie? And what traits cancel each other out? I like Josh, Josh Allen's fiancés, whoever they are. Sure.

You know? No, I just, I think Michael B. Jordan, playing Twins aside, Coogler, back, shooting on film, shooting like a violent genre movie with Jack O'Connell and Michael B. Jordan, it's exciting. So for you, the twins aspect of sinners is like an offensive lineman prospect being undersized, but the Coogler vampire part is coached out. We can get the twins into our system and develop them. You can develop.

That's what I'm saying. Yes. I am, yeah, I'm excited for the movie. I think, I've come around. I think I'm excited for the movie because, I mean, I do like Michael B. Jordan, as much of them as we can get. I like Ryan Coogler. I also like that they were, every so often, one of these filmmakers has to be like, no, no, I'm just going to make a movie I want to make.

Yeah. I respect that and I support that. Do I sound like Sean Fennessey has a small gun to the back of my head as I'm saying that? And I will see it in the theater. My enthusiasm for sinners pales in comparison to my outrageous glee at the prospect of the new Mission Impossible movie. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about your relationship to Ethan Hunt. I mean, first of all, one thing about all the trailers, whether it's Mission Impossible,

whether it's Phoenician scheme or one battle after another, is like movie theaters really are now country only for old men, like in terms of who can make movies and who's in these movies. So I do feel rewarded by that. My first takeaway from this Mission Impossible trailer was just all the old dudes, the best ones are in it. Shea Wiggum, Nick Offerman, Holt McElaney. And also my guy from Briarpatch, Charles Parnell,

just like all the old heads, just backing up, Ethan. And Ethan, by the way, is in his 60s jumping out of planes. I love these movies so deeply and so uncomplicatedly. Well, we've been talking about this off air. Like, I think I need to do a rewatch just because I like them. But also now apparently they were all deeply serialized. Well, yeah. Apparently, like, there's all this stuff that's canon.

Which is like so. Of course, you remember the Kremlin exploding. It's just like, the beauty of these movies. And this is also why I'm excited. Like, it's, it could all go to shit because the beauty of these movies literally are Ethan Hunt. blew up the Kremlin, and then there was another movie. Yeah.

Like, if you actually were tallying this in reality, I think it would, you know, it pushes the envelope a little bit. And now it's like, ah, the knife he's holding now is the knife he dropped in Brian De Palma's 1996 Mission Impossible? Sure. I mean, that is a writer challenge par excellence. The Christopher McCoy was like, now I have to make sense of this as now that I'm drawing it to a close.

I'm curious to see how he did it. I also, and I cannot stress this enough, do not give a shit about like continuity here. I think it's just super expensive, dumb, exciting, fun with good actors. My attitude about it is one is the best. Okay. I don't know that it's that close.

No, I mean, one... It's the best film. Like, it is... Yeah. If they had never made another one, it would still be a classic. I find three to be the most emotionally engaging, I guess. That's Hoffman.

Don't talk to me like I just got here. I know. I know which one it is. The rabbit's foot. I think Fallout is my favorite to watch. I was about to say Fallout. I thought Fallout was the one where I was like, oh, okay, we're... We're throwing helicopters at each other. We're just having a laugh here in the best possible, let's see it in the movies kind of way. Yeah. I found three, I have to rewatch three. I think three had obviously the best villain performance

and an attempt to graft some sort of emotional reality onto a movie that didn't necessarily want it or need it. But I remember being kind of frustrated with that one, actually, at the time. But nobody talks about two, right? Two's the worst. The JJ-five. The J-J stuff is very heavy in that. Yeah, it's like, oh, the rabbit's foot. Yeah, but, like, it's rather than, I feel like they, they, like, really take a highlighter

and they're like, this is a Macuffin. You know, so it's very complicated. Yeah. For podcasts. There's also a lot of, like, I have a bomb inside of my eyeball stuff. I don't really understand. Is that how you felt yesterday watching the end of the Masters? And then I realized I'd put a Zinn in while I still had a Zinn.

Too far in? Ghost Prote was the one where they tried to erase Jeremy Renner from history in real time, right? Well, he had been brought on for Rogue, or no? A Rogue Nesh? Yeah. No, I think he's in the Brad Bird one to take over the mantle. Yeah, and that's Ghost Protocol, right? I think he comes back.

He comes back, but there's like, They're like, he's decidedly absent from the final reckoning trailer. Special Agent Renner, yes, we've prepared a cuck chair for you. Please sit in on our meeting in his second appearance.

We're going to do more about that movie. I love it. I need to check in with you because one of my favorite long, slow play developments was just your flowering as a true Westhead. And it's not a secret.

It's not like your twin thing. It's almost harvest time. So I want to know your cinefile West Anderson take on Phoenician ski. It's one of my least complicated artistic relationships. He doesn't make bad movies. They get better and better every time you watch them.

Yep. I love them very deeply. I find every frame to be something worth diving into. I think I've, I just have like this like very special feeling about him. And this movie, it doesn't even matter what the trailers are. The trailers are incredible.

This one looks amazing. I can't, I can't wait to see Michael Sarah in the Wes Anderson ensemble. but it's kind of like he could have shot like a shoebox for two minutes and I would be like I'm sure this film would be great. You know? The trailer made me really happy. Yeah.

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suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. We should talk about the last of us. We put it off long enough. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it.

Should we reset where we were or are broadly on this project? Or do you think part of the issue is that there's been enough of a gap between one and two that your feelings may have changed? Did the weight

make you anticipate this more, make you dread it more, make you feel like, I don't remember what happened in the first season? Are you just kind of like, talk to me? I mean,

I feel the same level of kind of like, not to use a cancer analogy, but like benign positivity. Yeah. That I have felt about the show from the beginning. Let me do small detour.

It's a special, it's a religious time of year for many people. I attended a Seder last night. Yeah. Shout out to Sarah. Daniel hosted it. I know I learned last night that Daniel only listens to us when he's at the gym. So I wonder if that creates some kind of like Pavlovian response when he hears my voice.

Is it just like reach for a creatine shake? Is it like, I don't think I have that effect on most people. But there's a conversation about the, I won't call it delicacy, but the traditional Jewish food, gefilta fish, which some people like for nostalgia reasons and most people think is kind of gross. Okay. And then people were talking like, oh, I wonder if, you know, what would a chefy version of guffilta fish be like, oh, you could kind of, you could steam them like little fish dumplings. You could bring in some like Vietnamese flavor profiles. And I'm like, that sounds wonderful. But also it's still gifilte fish, basically, right? And my feeling about Last of Us is that this is the chefiest, most thoughtful, most considered, in some ways smartest and in some ways, at least in terms of like chain of command, not smartest, zombie shows. Ever. Yeah. And if you are a fan of zombie shows generally,

like if you were a fan of gefiltofish, you'll like all versions of it. Because it's satisfying those certain cravings. I think that I am not a big zombie person. I know I'm not a big dystopian apocalyptic end-of-the-world person. So my relationship to the show is not beginning from the baseline, well, I like the way this tastes, no matter who's preparing it, place,

that I think some of the show's fans have, whether they played the video game or whether they just like this type of story. When I'm watching it, it is a much more like up, it's like the mountains that frame the town, a little more jagged and up and down. Like Catherine O'Hara shows up, just like Melanie Linsky showed up in season one, right? And I'm like, oh shit, this is in its seriousness of purpose.

This is a surprise. This is a zag. I love this scene. This is really interesting and compelling. And then, inevitably, because it's a zombie show, Ellie will be in one-on-one combat with a suddenly smart zombie. Yeah.

And I like that less. So you almost like the bench more than the starters. Whoa. I like that. I have other positive things to say as well as some criticisms, but that's kind of setting the thermostat

for where I'm at. This is a very particular show because obviously it is based on a piece of IP that people are very familiar with. It's such a hugely popular video game. Not us. Right.

Like we don't have any... Not us, but I will say that even the discourse around casting around like what's going to happen on this season, even people who are trying to kind of be like, you know, you may not have... Be spoiler friendly. I don't think they're doing that great of a job of it. You know, I have a feeling about certain things. I found it like, it took me a minute to kind of get back into the rhythm of this. Not only because, I mean, I really like this show, but it was...

was actually just because of that very modern sensation of this show has not been on for several years. I did not have the time to rewatch the first season. So the first 15 minutes, I'm like, am I supposed to know who Catherine O'Harris' husband is? Am I supposed to know? I had that, yeah. Who, like, did he tell her in the intervening years? And is that why she's mad at him? I think that there was a degree to which Craig Mason, who wrote and directed this episode and then is obviously the creator of this co-creator of the show. The showrunner. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about mystery and suspense within a world like this

because there's the mystery and suspense inherent in when you're making a genre show anyway, but then there is like kind of needlessly confusing the audience or creating mystery and suspense just to prolong a plotline. We were just chatting with Van outside as we were walking into the studio. This is a compelling workplace. And I felt like Van and I were talking about. like, you know, why, like,

is there another choice? Is it anything other than a dramatic choice for Pedro Pascal's character to have, to have just not told Ellie, like, look, they were going to operate on you and kill you in the process. So I saved your life. And you can be mad at me for how I went about doing that, but that's the truth.

Now, I understand, like, everybody's got their secrets and you know, you want to protect a young person, but then young person becomes an adult and then they're angry for really. reasons they don't understand. But I found there it would be a little bit of a like 15 minute kind of like, and this is who and what, like this is what. But then I got into the rhythm of it and I find it's made on such a high level across the board that I got over my kind of like murkiness about it. Yeah, let me say just off the bat. I love how expensive the show looks.

I love the vistas. I love the mountains and the snow and the texture and the production design and Pedro Pascal's grizzled face in the midst of it. Like, I was very happy, actually, to be safely in the arms of a show that cares this much about spending money in the right places and what it looks like and how it presents itself. Like, that was a nice feeling, and I enjoyed the textures of it. I should also say that the first note that I took in watching the show was, I've got a fever for some Dever.

She's incredible. I'm so excited. Like, she's just like, Okay, here we go. She's just an electric performer. She really is. She's psyched to see her on screen. Just the moment when she holds the other dude's gaze when he's like, she's ready to go and he's like, I'll go with you, but we have to do these other things.

And awesome. Very excited for that. Yeah, we're singing slowly. It was like, hell yeah. Yeah. That is great drama and great performance. And again, when you're operating on this level, when you have a writer and creator of this magnitude and then someone who is also interested in creative casting to the degree that he is. I think that a lot of our experiences liking or disliking or even loving genre shows over the last few years,

casting is the sneaky element to it to keep people surprised, keep people engaged, have people lean in even when the materials feel slightly familiar. Super into that. It's interesting that you bring up the secret because I sort of, I agree with... The secret between... That Joel has not talked about what happened in the finale. But Ellie seems to now intuit it because she... That's what may be supposed to be why she's so pissed at him all the time.

Well, I think that question, I like, so on a, this is kind of frustrating because it's a, what mysteries get revealed, what mysteries get held back. That can often be a frustrating back and forth between an audience and a show. And I'm very sympathetic to that. In this case, the reason why I'm okay with it is if you extrapolate out, it's not just that he doesn't want to tell her about the terrible things that he's. he did, right? It's the equation that he personally solved for, which is to him, she's worth more than humanity.

The weight of that choice is what's slowly crushing him, and the inevitable outcry or moral rebalancing act that might happen with everyone else is looming or lurking, so I'm sort of sympathetic to that. But if you can, it always works for me if you can put it back into a character level. And the thing that I was most interested in on a thematic level through the episode was the idea that um well it's not an idea it is a dangerous path to go down as a parent if you blatantly need something from your child as much as they need something from you that is an unfair attempt to balance something right like it really is so if you're like i need you to win the masters that's not fair well to who and how much money do you

have on it. But in terms of the weight of that relationship, and one of the things that I can just sort of intuit from a storytelling perspective that Ellie is chafing against is that Joel looks at her all the time. Like, I did this for you. Yes. You are worth it. You have to be worth it. I did it

all for you. I live my life every day closed up like this and still suffering because of you. And she's like, I didn't ask you to do that. That's, you know, and she might not know specifically what he did. But that's echoed when he punches the guy that makes the homophobic remark at the dance.

Yeah. And he just looks at her like... Aren't you happy that I did that? Thank me. Thank me. Like, the show is worth... Let me just throw the biggest tent possible and say, like, this show is worthwhile because it is still curious about relationships like that,

even within the larger framework. And that, to me, is always the sign, in addition to the casting, like, oh, there's someone thinking there. There's something alive in there. That's compelling. So if you fold that character thing into the secret, I'm like, okay, I buy it.

I don't buy it if it's just to keep the trains moving on time to get from Jackson to Seattle and back again or whatever, wherever the show is headed. Sure. The bigger thing that I'm curious, your take on was, you know, I'm on record. You can search back in Spotify to, like, my opinions about the first season. The most compelling thing outside of the dressing, the casting, the casting, the the intensity, whatever, about the first season was that, for example, unlike Walking Dead, there was a hope trajectory. There was the sense that this girl can save the world.

Sure. Can end the virus. With that answered, potentially, you know, that storyline being answered somewhat definitively that like, well, now there are no more scientists who are aware of this who will or could extract this, you know, it begins to feel more like, a traditional were barricaded in here and everything's fine for now

and some of the momentum that I think even newbies could sort of wrap their minds around is gone. Now this was the first episode of a second season it's been renewed for a third there's clearly more story

there might be a fourth I think also we know based on you know the first season that Mason is doing these like he had the Nick Offerman Murray Bartlett episode I don't know that

we'll see another kind of stand-alone episode like that, but I've only seen the first one. I'm watching Week to Week like everybody else. I think that... So what's your question? Well, my question is, did you feel a shift in momentum

or purpose or destination or goals? No, I felt like by the end of the episode, like, they're surrounded. You know, you've got an evolving species of cortisps out there who are like now doing things like baiting and luring. You've got Abby on the... the hillside looking down on the town and obviously not there to make nice and their sewage line

is full of burgeoning like vines or like the vines are moving in the in the in the lawn and the sewer there yeah so they got a lot of fucking problems and you know like I think the idea that five years have gone by and they've kind of lulled themselves into sleep I mean an ordinary show or maybe a walking dead type of show would have been we would be on season six now and now we would be would be getting another threat, but the first five years would be like setting up this town. I, you know, like, the evil within the calcification of empathy with the refugee story, real world issues about like housing and infrastructure in the labor pool. Like, I personally am like ready for like Abby to come in and kick some ass.

Like I'm, I'm a little bit more like let's move, let's get chunk plays on The Last of Us and not like, let's just get three yards and think about how would we power the dam here or whatever. Does that make you more like Kevin Petulow in terms of the offense? I don't know. We don't know. That's next season. Deep cut for the three people out there who know the new Eagles office coordinator is. Sometimes I feel like Shil Kapadia podcast for me. So I feel like I need to do it just for him. Would you go to therapy in this situation? I'll go to therapy right now. What are you talking about? Let's do it. Would you miss therapy if you were forced to survive like an apocalypse? Would you mean miss it like miss an appointment and reschedule? No, I mean like would you be like,

I really would be able, I could really go for like 45 minutes of straight talk express. Yes. What are you talking about? Do you know? Do you, like, do you know how many times I hit that vein when COVID was coming? I was like, hey, just, just leaving another voicemail. Just thought we could chat. You feel like you're probably home. Yeah. What do you think I'm going to go on patrol? This is like, this is like what I didn't know you're feeling about twins. Do you think Do I think therapy could be improved by whiskey? No.

Right. Well, I am outmire. If you're Gail and you've got the monopoly on the mental health business in that town, you can just do whatever you want. Do you think that Gail and Dr. Whatever her name was in Paradise could trade stories about being the only therapist

surviving an apocalypse? I do feel like there should be a conference with just the two of them in it. Okay, so the thing that VAM was bringing up to us, the convention that I would, was struggling with more that's present in this episode is the Kelly not following any rules any rules at all yeah like I also being like Chuck Norris so they're like well we have to send her because she's so good at this yeah yeah first of all I feel like and I don't want to speak out of turn

and I and I I'm sure she brings a lot of other attributes to the Jackson community but I have to say I don't think cat is a natural leader you know cat was the one who was like you guys don't go in there all right you can go in there yeah yeah that one You know what I mean? Like, I think there's some people who are... I think the idea is that they've been doing these patrols for a few years now, and they've gotten... They've racked up so many kills.

And Dina and Ellie kind of now have come of age at a time where they're just wasting these things. And so... Sure. I mean, that is present in the way they're like, let's go stub them in the neck and have fun. Like that, okay. I just feel like in terms of cats... Well, Ellie also knows she can't be got. She feels confident, but there's still a little doubt, right?

I don't know. She's, like, doing something. self-surge. She's like, she's like cutting the, the poison out. But there's people out there who are just like, I don't think I'm going to get COVID. You know what I mean? They're like, I'm probably good. Like, I'm maybe, maybe I'm immune a little bit. I feel like you were feeling that a little bit. No, I've gotten it. No, now you have, but like you went a little, you went, you ran the tape a little longer than most. I did. And I also like, now in retrospect, probably had like a saline

solution as my first shot because I got J&J real early. you're just like Here you go What is Where the math I'm free What does Trump say And his truth

Social have fun Be cool Here you go Yeah No I just feel like In terms of Kat there's peacetime leaders And there's war time leaders

You know She's a little She might not be built For these times Yeah That said On that patrol I do think

Mushroom Zombies versus Bear Is the show's sweet spot Yeah Like, I think, like, okay, let's, let's push that a little bit more. That's fun. Do you do any, like, when Abby comes, when, when Caitlin Deaver's Abby character is introduced, do you, do you look online? Okay. Good. No, no, no. Because I actually know too much when people are like, the controversial introduction. I don't want to know anything about that. That's very sweet of you. There's nothing. No, I'm too busy Googling Andy Greenwald White Lotus Opinions, WTF. So, clearly I don't have time. By the way, I love it. In this podcast, you've staked out two opinions. One, stop looking at things online.

And then 10 minutes later, you were like, You were like, people talking about you online. It's a very healthy. I'm so guilty just because I used to like to go on the CR heads page and be like, here's some other people who also like my friend Chris. Little did I know there was a villain in the story. He's sitting right across from you. Me?

No, I'm your villain. Oh, no. I'm your Abby. a compelling actor who unfortunately has been wedged into the story Did you, Isabel Merset? Yeah. Were you familiar with her?

I saw her in a rom-com on Netflix about Christmas And I can't remember it's not like It's like basically home for the holidays I can't remember the actual title But it's quite charming Yeah, she's got charisma for days She's very charismatic

Danny Ramirez. I'm excited to see what he brings to the table from Top Gun Maverick. Danny Ramirez and also the Philson catalog? Like that guy really... He's fucking Anthony Mackey's sidekick. No, I know. Oh, yeah. No, I'm just saying like he looks amazing on the show. Yeah.

It's just like the fit. I feel like you have a similar aesthetic sometimes when it gets a little gray here in L.A. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You like to wear some parkas? Sure. Maybe a boot? I don't know. They can't see it on camera. Do you... But generally, like, where were you with the Ellie's teenage rebellion,

but also she might get everyone killed by being... I find it very frustrating to watch, to be completely candid. I would like you to be candid. I think that is tied to the... We're not going to have the fight right now, Joel and Ellie stuff, and we're not going to get it all out on the table right now.

We're not going to talk about what we're going to have something wedged between us. I kind of... I think that I'm more anxious about some of the human emotion and interpersonal relationships than I am about the coming zombie incursion and also like this this fireflies renaissance happening out in the hills remember the fireflies did you remember their they're sort of RIP yeah well I here's some things I know

about them they weren't necklaces they had a cool nickname they were out on the federal government they were out on the federal government which is you know what a what a ping ponging relationship people have had with the federal government recently so I get it yeah um And, yeah, look, the challenge for me, and maybe it's the challenge for the show if it's interested in tweener potential fans like me, which sidebar I don't think it needs to be because it's a huge show regardless, is just like, as many things as possible that show some creativity, spark, beating heart, like, within this. The twin poles that define it, though, of like, a scrappy band of outsiders will learn to make electricity again, despite the end of,

everything. Plus, we got to go get some head shots, like double tap kills. It's also the end of the world stuff I just find at this moment a little tiring, honestly. Because as we are learning, doesn't really go like that. It's much dumber and slower. And Katie Perry is in space. You know what I mean? So I guess maybe I am over leveraged to use a phrase in Asian steel, let's be honest, but also on the parts of the story that I need to work for me to love it. That's really an interesting way of like,

what's your portfolio? My exposure is. Your last of us portfolio, we should make that like a running bit. Yeah, because I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to stay healthy. Do you know what I mean? Like, not in terms of the mushroom virus.

I know, because it's like, as a, as a story, I think it's one that you're probably like, this is not 100% really like what I like to engage with. Yeah, and I think that's, But it's a momentous, it's a huge thing for TV. I think it's also very well done. I happen to like the cordyceps are getting smarter stuff. Like, you know, that's just the way it goes.

Things get smarter. Actually, I would say it might not be true. I think it'll be an interesting conversation that I look forward to having and seeing as the show develops because there's enough promising things here. I'll keep coming back to it. We didn't even mention like young Manzino from Beef is on the show. And I'm like, okay, I'm looking. I'm interested.

Who is the big dog that L. tapped into submission there. Who do I think he is like... Who is he? Like was that guy like an actual MMA fighter or something? He pulled his punches.

Do you believe, I mean, respect. Like Bella Ramsey is a professional. She's a good performer, good actor. Like... I don't know. Do you think she could... I don't know. Could she take him on on the Octagon?

Well, I think he was probably like, I didn't knock you out with my first punch. So yes, maybe she was able to do her spider monkey. You kind of like jump up there and get the leg lock. I just... Is Catherine O'Hara going to do some, like, Bare knuckle brawling? I think she's just going to get 5 p.m. drunk and watch it all go down.

I loved the soft neck, like Laura Ashley's sweater that she just kept through the apocalypse. I thought that was a great Hal Hartley movies. That too, that was. From Simple Men? Yeah. And from one of the Robocop sequels of life? He's also like in every show ever made. But he was Seth, the homophob.

That was my guy from Simple Men. Yeah. Wow. Stay working, folks. You stay working. That's the goal. That's what I want for you. guess what I meant to say is, I think it'll be an interesting conversation, hopefully for

everyone. But, like, to have a show where the baseline is, my baseline for the show is, this is good. But, well, where we, like, what more does it need to do? What more does it, is it going to do? It's, it's, it's working. Yeah. You what I mean? Like, in a, I also thought it worked very well as a road moot show and as a show that, oh, that's a great point. Cycled in people because of new towns, new experiences. Don't know how long they're going to be in Jackson for. like I said, not reading ahead or watching ahead or playing ahead. So I think a static blast of us will feel a little bit different than the first season in good ways and bad. Can I ask you a personal question?

Yeah. Are you more of a Jackson guy or a Seattle guy? Seattle. Never been to Jackson. Oh, it's pretty. Never been to Wyoming. Really? Yeah. Well, I've not done the Badlands.

It's a big blank spot for me. It's interesting. I feel like Liz Cheney could have used you. Badlands, Guy? Here you've been. Wyoming, Montana? There you go. well, Kai and I know something about this country.

Maybe you should listen. You know, you can be here in your ivory tower. I just get in my little metal tube and go from... Sad. Metropolis to metropolis. It's sad, really. Watching Mike White shows, but Kai and I are out here. You're just literally touching grass.

Thanks for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. I bet what we're going to do is talk about dope thief as like a concluding kind of dialogue. I can't remember. This is our new White Lotus because I was like,

Chris, let's just hold Dope Thief till next week. There's one left. And then I got an email being like, a couple more episodes. The other thing is

just to cheer you up. I have a couple of black mirrors I'd like you to watch. Oh, cheer me up. Do you want to tell people which ones you're checking for? By the way,

there are eight. I can't remember the titles, but I liked the Peter Capaldi one. That one specifically I'd like to talk about. Okay, I'll watch it. Dope thief ends April.

25th. Two full weeks left of Dope Thief, eight episodes. And I got to say, I watched five of them, and I'm like, there's three more? Next week is also Andor. So, well, we have a lot of content. Get ready for the rebellion. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you guys on Thursday.