The Watch - ‘The Last of Us’ Steps Into New Territory. Plus, ‘Your Friends & Neighbors’ E3.

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about last night’s momentous episode of ‘The Last of Us.’ They discuss Mark Mylod becoming the go-to director for huge episodes of TV (02:14) and where the series will go from here (36:45). Then they break down the latest episode of ‘Your Friends & Neighbors’ and talk about how the show’s closest comparison is increasingly becoming ‘Billions’ (48:26). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production: Marcelino Ortiz Video Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everybody, before we get into today's episode of The Watch, where we'll be talking about the Last of Us, episode two, as well as some stuff on your friends and neighbors, just want to mention that Andy and I will be back on this feed tomorrow night to talk about the first three episodes of Andor broadly, but more importantly, to be joined by Tony Gilroy, the creator of Andor, and one of our favorite screenwriters of all time. Tony has been on the pot a couple of times, and is always an incredible interview, and he was so thoughtful and interesting in talking about this second season. of Andorso, please make sure you keep your eye on your feeds.

Tomorrow night for that Tony Gilroyi interview. Let's get into today's show. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimfaya, Guseucumabab taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques, psoriasia.

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Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he won't be visiting Jackson anytime soon. It's Andy Greenwald. Let me begin by saying, I thought the new promo campaign for no laying up has gone too far. Lots of golf jokes coming.

That's why I wore the master's hat. We are going to jump right into our Last of Us, episode two reactions. I will say that we will be spoiling going forward from this very second. Okay. I will also say, just to be the nice guy that I am. You are. I probably will casually mention other momentous episodes throughout television history.

Oh, so you might just spoil everything. No, I'm trying to, I'm going to try and be mindful about specifics, but I think when we refer to say other things that Mark Milod has done in his directorial career, we may refer to other character deaths, we may refer to momentous occasions. Honestly, I assume if you watched last night and you're listening to us and you listen to the watch, you probably watch Game of Thrones. Huh. That'd be interesting to find out if there's some people that didn't. Maybe you watch Succession, I hope, you know?

I would also say, because I'm more concerned about this, if you'd like to know some of our just regular Monday morning bants and Chris's thoughts about Easter weekend, just skip forward about 15, 20 minutes. 1520? This is a momentous episode of television, man. Yeah. We can knock it out. All right. Okay, maybe longer. The time codes will be in there.

You have the honors. Andy, we're going to talk about this episode through the valley. It was written by Craig Mason. It was directed by Mark Milit as I refer to earlier. Obviously, this is an episode where Abby gets her revenge and the Horde Breaches Jackson. So two things that I think on any other show

in any other moment would be penultimate or season finale moments, crushed into one episode. Yeah. I guess I want to start with you Thank you Because A, you've been a little bit immune to the

To the Corriceps crawling all over my body here What's bitten twice shy No, but like you've been a little bit immune To some of the show's charms And this is obviously a takeout Like put it on the mantle Put it on the shelf episode

So what did you think? Before I answer in full I do want to know Like I do want to say completely unspoiled. Yes. I knew nothing. Yeah, it must have been cool.

It was pretty lucky, pretty great. Yeah. Things are really breaking my way, just as an American. I mean, there was some ambient. People don't like the Abby character. That's what I was telling you. I think I may have been the ambient, like. Well, that and then also other ambient was like any complaints about,

boy, they're really just going to settle in to, Jackson. To ski life is probably premature. Yeah. So I didn't mind having those that sense. Cool. Did you guys have a great New Year's Eve? What did you?

Great show. I feel like the year doesn't start until February. Am I right? Have you noticed nobody in California will return my calls until it's. Oh, now it's Sundance? Dry January goes on forever. So that was cool for me. And I would hope cool for many other people who weren't spoiled and don't play video games.

I don't need. this to be in any way like a half compliment when I say that this was on a craftsmanship, on an aesthetic, on a technical level. This was TV on the highest, the highest possible order. It was outrageous. It was so brilliantly directed. And yes, I'm saying this not just because we are fans of Mark Milud. I will disclose that I have been working with Mark Milit. He is awesome and a genius. and also, just sidebar, the least director energy of any major lead director I've ever been around. That's a nice guy who is really good at doing the Misan Sen for Mass Death.

Can I ask you a question? I was going to save this for later in the conversation, but what do you think makes him, not necessarily because he's such a great guy to have tea with, but what makes him such a good director? Because he is obviously this chameleonic presence throughout the last 10 years or so of television. Yeah, I mean, people, it's hard to realize

that his first producing directing gig, meaning one that he was like part of the team for the show across the season was entourage. I don't think I knew that. Yes. That was what brought him to L.A. for the first time. What an interesting entree.

I know. Our little town here. I know. So anyway, so what... I was trying to kind of develop like a, not a theory of my lot or an understanding of his aesthetic, but I think the reason why I like him so much

is that he's a throwback, not a throwback, but I think he reminds me of film directors like Cindy Pollock or Mike Nichols who does what's needed because the material demands a certain approach. Now, you could say Mark Milit is very good at directing handheld. So, like, I feel like when there are moments where we're dealing, we're inside of a character's perspective,

or he's trying to unnerve the audience. Obviously, Succession uses handheld almost exclusively, it feels like. Yeah, he kind of created. the visual language or mastered the visual language of that show. But he brought a little bit of that, you know, I thought like compared to the first episode that Mazen directed, this one feels a lot more jittery and

for good reason. But then he also has in his bag, oh, I can direct 6,000 zombies running after one person down a mountain. And you know, that is just an incredible array of talents. Yeah, I think

that, I think what you said hits the nail in the head and what makes him rare in this day and age and maybe it was less rare in the past, but I think that he does exactly what's needed for the project. And I think that often in TV, which is really kind of an independent contractor, freelance Jack of All Trades kind of industry for directors, that that can be a really useful thing. You can just show up and get your shots and get out of there, but it doesn't really make for, it makes for competence, not always excellence, and it definitely doesn't always make

for like visual, just visual, um, like show off in its distinction. Yeah. Yes. And somehow he is able to do that. And I've not been on set with him,

so I can't speak to like his technical stuff, which is clearly at an elite level, having done this for Thrones, having done this for shameless, having done this for the menu, succession. And now this. Um,

but what I can say about him from having been around him is that I don't remember any director being as warmly welcome in a writer's room, let's say, just in terms of his ability to listen and share and to get granularly into the storytelling to a degree that I have to assume makes it possible then to dunk on everybody once you're actually on set that day.

So I'm blown away by it, and I couldn't get over the scale of the episode, the size of it, the expense of it, but the money well spent in terms of where to, put the camera. And when, you know, when you're talking

about, like, the Jackson, uh, assault, like being able to follow characters within that story and understand the scale of it and sort of modulate the hopeful hopelessness of it,

I thought it was just really, really remarkable. Um, it's also really good writing. I mean, like the, the opening, uh,

Maria and Tommy scene, Tommy's speech to the town. Yeah. Where he's like, I'm a Ramirez guy now, by the way. On the off chance that there's a, uh,

a huge, invasion by the horde, we're going to like basically funnel them down Main Street so that we have high ground, we're going to send all the women and children into the basements, and then we're going to fortify the basements. It's like everything kind of was laid out. Now obviously when he's doing that speech,

you're just like, oh, well, then this obviously will go bad today. But that being said, I thought, like you said, you were just able to see and feel exactly where this action was happening. Even down to the point where Tommy is like going head to head. head with the, I don't know what the hell that thing was, the berser kind of... I have some notes on that. I have some questions about that.

Main dude, main mushroom. I kind of knew where that was. Like that it was on a side street. It was on a... So, yeah. So all of that said, I also think it's really... We have to commend the show for going for it. Like, one of the...

We've been talking... We talk about this constantly, and I was talking about it last week with dope thief, this idea that, like, one of the main challenges to making good TV is knowing the right shaped bucket for your story. And sometimes it's a two-hour bucket. Sometimes it's an eight-hour bucket. And when you mix that up, not great things happen. The other factor that is worth putting into that conversation is speed, speed of story, like how, you know, when you hit the gas, when you pump the brakes, when to delay, and when to just go for it. And I'm sure that there were conversations and I'm sure there were notes,

and I'm sure there were questions about how quickly do we hit this plot point that, you know, as we experience with the Game of Thrones, viewers or players in this case knew was coming, but also we have a star

who is suddenly one of the most bankable stars in the world and most recognizable faces and a beloved actor, and are we ready to do this this soon into the second season? Could we extend it? Could we have this,

the... Based on the amount of movies he's in, I think Pedro Pascal was ready. I have a lot of comments about that, so please let me cook at about 10 minutes. All I'm saying is, the biggest spoiler was my guy's IMDB page since 2023. 10 movies since 2024.

So I think that really was the tell that none of us, it was hiding in plain sight. Right. Anyway, they went for it, obviously. And I think that it was thrilling, it was earned. and I was excited to sort of reaccess that part of my TV watching lizard brain, which does the, I don't know if you ever have this, but sometimes I find my reactive audience brain getting conservative in real time.

Like clearly his story is over in that moment. Abby has been very clear. Oh, but you're like, could Ellie come crashing through the window and save him? The hope and the manipulation of the hope by the creators, not in a bad way, but in an artful storyteller way. could he find a way to delay? Could he say the right thing that would give them pause? Will her crew of super,

super woke TikTok army kids step in and do the right thing? Yeah. You know, the brain does that. And I think good storytellers, which amazing clearly is, know that our brain is doing that

and then denies us that hope in a way. So there was a moment when the more cynical person who does this for a living, like and watch his TV for a living at this point, it was like, oh, they're doing this. I see it. I respect it. But the lizard brain hope remains,

and I like that collision. It's been a while. It's the reverse of every time you watch Don Draper driving Sally anywhere, and you were like, oh, no, oh, no, please don't turn off the road. It's like, they're not going to have him kill his daughter and himself in a car, you know. Episode 4 of Season 5. I love this episode. I knew it was coming.

I was pretty sure it was coming. You were loose with the Google. Well, I think I was very excited for Caitlin Deaver's casting. And so any engagement with that casting news inevitably led to lots of people being like protect Caitlin Deaver at all costs. This is a very controversial character within the realm of the game. Is Deaver Fever still on Tumblr? Or have you moved it to substaff?

Dever Fever is going straight to PlogSpot. I see. And I think that I've been fascinated with the writing about, like Nicholas Quah wrote about this, but a lot of the sort of discourse around some of the ideas about the adaptation process of this TV show, video game to TV show now, often when you have something, I don't know, what's a good example of something like, this is stupid but Tomb Raider or something like that

where you're like, essentially like it's a first person shooter that you're kind of moving through a world and like it's a very identifiable main character. That's the avatar for the player. Last of Us, apparently, I've never played it, moves POV around. So one of the reasons why Abby is such a complicated character in the game is that you play as Abby when Last of Us part two came out. Like you're playing as Abby and I guess I don't know this for 1,000% sure, but like you kill Joel. Like you're forced to kind of live both sides of this kind of issue that they've got at the heart of is Abby doing something right? Did Joel do the right thing?

did Joel do the right thing for these two choices that these people made at various points in their life. Wow. That's like you with all your steel stocks. You're like, you know this is bad for the world. But I gotta say, maybe it's time to take some medicine. So there was that. I felt while I was watching it,

we got to come up with the German world word for something bad is going to happen or something big is going to happen on this episode of TV. It's basically the hair on your arm stand up. but I have felt that a couple of times. Even though I knew something was happening, there was just too much buzz about this episode. I don't think I understood that it was going to be paired

with this invasion of Jackson, which is apparently a show invention and is also like, you know, about like kind of wiping the entire whiteboard clean of this series. I was thinking a lot, obviously, about Raines of Casimir while I was watching it because people were like... And that's the Red Wedding episode. Last of us just had its Red Wedding episode. And it's kind of fascinated by the fact

the Raines of Casimir happens 29 hours into Game of Thrones. That's really hard to remember. And how much TV has changed since then? How was the day Game of Thrones became president? But it's like Game of Thrones introduced this idea that nothing is sacred, that there aren't these sort of fixed identities

within shows of like, this is obviously the guy who's going to leave this show for the 10 years that it's on. They taught us that early on. They taught us that with Ned. But I don't think that we, I don't think I was prepared and it was also a different time on social media

and a different time in terms of like how much time people were spending online where you could blissfully be unaware of what happens in Reins of Cassidy and what happens at the Red Wedding. There's also a level of shock that's a attendant that comes with being with these people

for 30 hours. That's a little different for being with them for 11, I think, which is the case with Last of Us or however many episodes it's been, I think it's how many episodes of that first season? This is one of our great... We love this. We have no idea.

Sadly, there's no way for us to know. 10 or 11 hours or whatever it is. That's how long we've been with Joel. And it's a lot different than the relationship to some of the people who perished in Red Wedding. It's not a qualitative judgment. It's just an observation. Now, I would say that that's one of the things

that makes HBO really good at what it does institutionally because that and it also reinforces why casting Pedro Pascal was so important retroactively. I'm sure people noted this at the time who'd played the game. You're casting someone who has baked in familiarity, audience goodwill, carries himself on screen, and when you see him, it's charisma, it's kindness, you'd follow him, you'd trust him. You don't have to do the legwork to get him to a place where you believe in him. You do from the beginning, because frankly, you don't have enough time to establish it otherwise. Right. I guess I want to talk a little bit about the scene, you know, and his death, because obviously it's one of the more...

Let's put the Jackson stuff on Nice for a minute. Yeah. Because I think it would probably be a very, like, it's a very challenging scene to depict. Obviously, it's torture, you know, both what's happening in that room, but also to watch. You have all this affection for Pascal as an actor and as like a persona. You also have a lot, I personally have a lot of affection for, like, Deaver.

Which is why you cast her. Yeah. And what did you think of the way they staged it, and what did you think of the performance within it. Two things to get out of the way, just two small bumps that I'll just get out of the way first. One is the show is testing, honestly,

my credulity in terms of tiny bird-armed people being, you know, what's the, what's the, what's the fighting? Crave-Maga. Yeah, that one. They can all do that. You don't know what Krav-Magas? Come on. After last week's Ronin-Slas-Ronin pronunciation debacle,

I am retreating, frankly. From what? From foreign words for a while. Just taking a break. So are you trying to say that you don't know that Deaver had the ball speed to make that happen? The clubhead speed? I'm just, no. No, once she went to the bag without the benefit of a caddy,

but for a while she was just using, you know, using the fisticofts. Yes. I think she'd been training for a long time for that moment. For this one moment. I think the other aspect of it ties into something that I'll say at the end, which is just like, it's, it's, it's. It's not just that the show is the best possible version of a zombie show. I think it is the best possible version of an absolutely nihilistic, dystopian anguish world that I don't love being in.

And the sound of her beating a beloved character to death was not my favorite way to spend a Sunday. That said, I respect that they did it, you know, that they went for it. And it was the, you know, what am I thinking of? Recently, I was just watching something where someone says, like, would you rather have, like, was one in the head or, like, bleed out slowly from the stomach? I don't know. I feel like that was a text you sent me, probably. Some action movie.

One of your other friends. No, no, no. It doesn't matter. The point is, this was the headshot of super violent character death scenes. And I thought it was, like, to that degree, staged with the best, I don't know, respect. level of respect. I didn't think it was self-indulgent. I didn't think that it never crossed over into torture porn.

I thought Deaver kept it really grounded. She had just the right amount of menace, but also vulnerability and kind of always keeping it tethered to the emotional motivation for doing it in the first place. And to that point, I mean, this is something that we talked about in a more spiritual sense when we were talking about White Lotus, but I think it's just actually a core tenet of effective drama when you see the full chain of decision making and you feel the weight of the butterfly wings in one episode and then the storm hits wherever later. And you can sort of see the beat by beat logic to it even if you don't agree with it or even if you wish it wasn't so. So doing it earlier,

even though five years has passed in the show, but doing it earlier in the season really didn't allow either Joel or the audience to move past what he did in that firefly. hospital. Yeah. So you understand, as he did, that this was coming for him. And you understand, in a way, I think, and Pascal played this really well, that all of this was one action in a way. And that saving this person who killed him was also part of the kind of dark symmetry of this post-apocalyptic world, right? That he was always going to be himself. And at the very end, there was nothing, he couldn't argue. Because it was him, he saved Ellie, he saved this girl.

That is his nature is to sometimes be quite violent if necessary to save the people he feels are worthy of being saved. And at the end of his road, that was, he understood how he paved the road that he got there. He's watched everybody he loves die. And so he wasn't willing to let Ellie go. He knows what he did. He obviously is ashamed enough. about it or you know knows how divisive it would be for it to be an open to have for everybody

to know i made a choice to save ellie but possibly doom the rest of humanity if she indeed is this like miracle vaccine inside of her she has to die to give up that being said you know i thought i thought deaver was like the speech about lawlessness and this i i noted that too yeah what did you think. A little rich to be worried about lawlessness. No, I think she was like, you're supposed to stick to even in these moments of like everything is falling apart and society is kind of dissolving, that there are things you don't do. And she's like,

and now you've made me into you because I'm going to do that to you. Right. I like that. I mean, I thought, I mean, it was a very effective piece of writing. I don't, you know, I think it was an effective piece of writing and I thought it was really well played. And there was an element to it that I really, really liked where it felt theatrical. Yes. The way that she's performing this character,

and I mean this as praise, I can sort of feel the consideration as to how she's modulating it. It feels like this scene and her scene in the beginning of the season premiere felt to me more like soliloquy on stage, not necessarily in the writing, although certainly you can make that case,

but kind of in the way she seems to sort of savor the language, and she's not losing herself in the character. She's delivering the lines in a way. And this is maybe even a weird observation to make. But there's one moment when she's kneeling and she's delivering the lawlessness speech. And there's a cutaway to Pascal. And the way these things are cut up,

we don't know if this is a live reaction shot to that or they just had footage of him from a different take. But he seems receptive. Yeah. He's listening. I agree. It feels like an act. class in the sense that what your job

in a scene when you're not delivering lines is to be present and to listen even if you've heard it a hundred times before. And I just had a moment of being... So then an hour later when I was reading a little bit about the episode and you see someone throws up or I guess one of them had put on social like a picture of them paling around on set.

For a second I was like, what of the ex-fireflies as social still? Yeah, it's incredible. Peace the fuck out, Jackson. What's weird is that they still didn't shut down TikTok even though the virus took over. No, in that moment, I'm like, this seems like they were very generous performers

with each other and got along, and I made sense. Maybe that's a trite observation, but I felt like the speech was being delivered, but it was also being received, and that helped keep me in it, even though it was horrifying. Do you feel like the horror of that moment was offset by balancing it with what was happening at Jackson?

Like, if it had just been cutaways back to Jackson and people are like, boy, we really got to check these pipes out. Yeah. Oof, I'm hung over. Seth, I hope you've really come to realize that homophobia has no place in this town. Like, all over, like, just kind of moving through the, like, beats. And then also, but over here, Joel is getting killed by a six iron. Side note, homophobic Seth's steak sandwiches reminds me of the Palestinian chicken episode of Kirby enthusiasm,

where it's just like, sure, he hates who I choose to love. But, God damn, those sandwiches are good. I don't even see them, but they were like real thick cut, you know, like butcher paper. I'm sorry, Seth. Like, your hateful ideology has no place here. Court Street grocer over here.

Seriously, but I can't kick you out of my kitchen. Yeah. You chick-fil-a, pretty good. Basically, you know, there's another way to play this, and I think in the game, like I said, the show, I think, invents the idea of Jackson being invaded, at least contemporaneously with Joel's death.

I think there's another way to play this that feels a lot more excruciating. Oh, if it's just a one-on-one... Joel has been captured for half an hour. Yeah, no, no. I loved that part. And I also, again, this is... Because meanwhile, you're kind of like,

Joel's here, but I'm like, are you the other guy's okay? Like... Sometimes when you get into the weeds with, like, story structure, it is a little bit, like, when you read people say why Joe Madden was a really good baseball manager,

you know, for the raise. It's like, well, you know, he really, you hit the pitcher eighth. And I'm like, okay. So I don't want to get too far into that. But I do think that when you have the reps and the experience and certainly the budget and time to think about these things, you can be a much more effective puppeteer. And in this case, it's that there's so much danger happening at once that our attention is split. Our heart is split.

And it's playing into a foreknowledge of audiences savviness that we know someone's not making it. of this episode. Yes. We know someone we care about. And you find yourself, again, in those edge of your couch moments, making these calculations, being like, okay, I could sacrifice Jesse and maybe, you know, you throw in a Seth or whatever. And is that enough to get me out of this episode clean without losing one of the lead? And you start doing that.

And I think that that makes for a more engaging episodic experience. I love the idea of you watching, like, Pascal try to like, like his fingers twitching as tries to get up the last time and just being like, look, that's a long rehab. Yeah. But we believe in our sports science team and we can get him back on a horse by season three. I do have these questions of like, maybe this actually makes this show more like paradise in the sense of like we pick

who survives, but like Dr. Neil L. Trache, the guy who like fixes everyone's knee tendons. Yeah. Let's save him. Because as soon as truly as soon as Abby shoots Joel the first time, I'm like, okay, well, hell have a limb. but he's on horseback a lot.

It'll be fine. For sure. They let Ellie live, obviously. That they need to for the show. They also, technically, that was what Abby said. They're not going to hurt anybody. She's just going to kill Joel. So, like, obviously this kind of gets into,

where do we go from here? There's a couple of other moments from the show that I want to shout out. Within that group scene, though, like, did you feel, did you think Ellie was going to save the day? Did you think that... But I also knew what was going to happen. Right. As soon as she showed up...

Because once you get like half spoiled, you're just like, well, now I want to know. You do the full spoil? Yeah, so I'm just like, I go to like... I go to my sights. Do you? Your black sites? Your rendition sites? What are you talking about? As soon as Ellie showed up, I was like, oh, he's dying. Yeah. Because they needed to be... They had to have one more scene together, even if it was a little one-sided, I would say.

I also thought that, I mean, I made a joke about Abby's paramilitary elite force, but there are some... That's Danny Ramirez and, yeah. Well, no, Danny Ramirez is... That's Gabriel Luna. Who am I mixing up here? Danny Ramirez is the guy with Abby. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Gabriel, I'm so sorry, yes. I've been swapping them for this whole episode.

They're good. You know what I mean? And like, and they are, I see now, the show is so well cast that I make a joke about it, but like, it was this episode that I realized that was Ariel A Bearer in the group who was one of the stars of How to Blow Up a Pipeline. Yeah. And, uh, and Marvel's runaways back in the day. And I'm like, okay. She's like the medical. Yes. So I'm like, there are no, there are no weak spots. They are not like, well, we've run out of budget here. We're going to, we're going to skim. I think it's really well cast. And also each one of those people without a lot of dialogue is communicating a different.

response to what Abby is doing. That's what I mean. And so you have that ability, and this is something that my lot probably would speak about too, like he could cut to those people and get what he needed to tell the story. 100%. And so, and then also it's the, you know, it is in keeping with the storytelling language of the show of like more butterfly flaps. Like, well, I just left you alive. So now the show continues. I want to talk about where it goes from here. But I also just want to shout out. I feel like we've praised the individual people. But the scene where Abby falls down the mountain.

That's incredible. And the chain link fence is fucking insane. And the chase to the chain link fence single-handedly caused me to wish to recant everything I said last week about being, maybe I don't need zombie shows. Oh. Still a little mushroom meat on that bone. That was so... It's amazing to be you.

I'm just fresh every day chips go out, chips come right back in That's why I don't gamble Just enjoy myself Live I definitely think I'm getting 21 on this hand Do you know what I do? Live Moss

Yeah That's how I do it It was so Awesome It was riveting It was cinematic It was thrilling It was so well shot

It was just like that I don't know I don't know what kind of drones He's using her cranes But like yeah Okay You're making the case for yourself And for all of it in such a cool way

in Jackson I'm down with like fast mushroom zombies throwing themselves into stuff like okay I get that I see the terms of debate I am a little less into Hulk smash mushroom monsters who do the thing

They got that homie from Helms Deep this is what I'm saying all larger foes in fantasy whether they are like giants like 1-1 or whatever in GOT. Don't act like you don't know. We did an after show. I remember one one.

Wasn't he named after Eli Manning because George R. Martin's a Giants fan? I don't know. That's very funny if that's true. What's up, Jason and Mal? I miss you guys. All big creatures when they burst through the thing they're trying to get through

and all their little guys run through, they all pause to flex a little bit. They all pause to be like, and I'm like... In your war room, that's not a, that's a red flag on a prospect. Well, no, it's just like the guy. You want a guy who's just like, I just did my job and I'm resetting getting back into my stance. Yes, when Jaden threw the Hail Mary and there was the Bears cornerback who was just like waving to the crowd.

Like, there'll be time to showboat later. Secure Jackson. Yeah. Also, you have no brain. You're an animated fungus. Well, that guy had the brain. I thought that guy was the sort of, he was sort of Ray Lewis, you know, like he was setting. He had the green dot.

He was setting the coverages? I mean, he was. Because they all went left when he went left, right? True. And also when... And I think when he gets finally incinerated, that's when people, they all lose a little bit of their edge, you know? Oh.

And Jackson kind of, they get a leg up on them. When Gabriel Luna's just like, I want you. Yes. The guy's like, me? And then he follows him. I just felt a little too... I can't believe Craig Mason rejected your writing packet to be the dialogue guy for the head mushroom.

I could have been... Me? Well, like, you know, when they do the Gardens the Galaxy movies, Bradley Cooper is not on set, right? Like, Sean Guns just like, this is what a raccoon would do. I could have been that guy,

except I don't like the cold, and I don't like zombies, and I'm busy. But other than that, no, I just feel like we've only had a week to get used to the idea that some of these shrooms

are thinking. Well, we only had 15 minutes to get used to the idea that there were thousands of them buried, underneath dead bodies in the mountains. It's really true. And then less than that, actually, they say, like,

hey, some fun fact we've discovered. They didn't even show us that. Like, maybe they should have done less bantering on patrol and more like, hey, check out that frozen ground, make sure it's frozen. Yeah, if we run back the tape, like, when there is the sort of, like, you know, truth and reconciliation committee

about what happened at Jackson, I feel like they're, like, very... The foreign report. They're very credulous of... That would you? They'd be very credulous of, like, many, many zombies hiding under dead zombies. But when Ellie is just like, I personally witnessed a smart zombie, they're like, come on.

I think they're more just like, we've got to get through New Year's Eve. And then we'll worry about this. No, no, in this episode, Jesse's like, good morning. Please kiss my girlfriend, no problem. But stop telling lies. I think he was like, you're just making people really, like, wound up about this. Yeah, but then, like a minute later, the captains of the town are just like, hypothetically, we'd just

bear with me. Let's just say, let's play this out. Ray Lewis comes storming through no offense. Ray Lewis and the entire Legion of Boom, different team, I know. Riddle me this, guys. Let's just play this out.

No bad ideas. Okay, so here's the only other thing I want to say about, well, okay, I have a couple less things. One, just shout out Pedro Pescal, who has figured out how to, to stay nimble in this economy to a degree we've never seen before. What I mean is he is nominally the star of one of, in arguably the biggest shows in television.

It was a 10-hour commitment. He was also the star of one of the other biggest shows of the last 10 years, The Mandalorian. It was arguably a 35-minute commitment and then a couple hours in a voice booth. Right. He is the star of the only Star Wars movie currently on the schedule. will he appear in the movie?

Yeah. TBD. It made me shout out... He was also in Triple Frontier. Well, do you want to take the mic for a minute? He just does great work. He does great work. It made me want to shout out...

I miss the Netflix Pedro era. Oh, when he was just shown up and stuff? No, he was just narcos and he was triple... Freaky tales. Like, this guy likes to work. But it did make me want to shout out to the God Beatrice Strait, who I know you know and the rest of the rewatchable's crew, is the woman who won an Oscar

for delivering a five-minute monologue in network. Oh, yeah. Five minutes is actually only 24 minutes less than Pedro Pascal appeared on screen in Game of Thrones in his career-making term. I feel like Zachlowe's arrival at the ringer has really made us more of numbers oriented.

I'm crunching numbers, I'm crushing tape. That seems to work here. I'm just trying to get noticed. But like, it is an incredible run. I mean, Oberyn Martel is so memorable. also died so terribly in a shocking way 29 minutes of screen time and now he's my Reed Richards I don't know if he's yours

but it did make me think it did make me think I wouldn't if I was John Krasinski I wouldn't give up hope you know what I mean? Pascal's here for a good time not a long time in these movies What do you mean? Krasinski oh

maybe there's another Mr. Fantastic coming in another universe maybe that's the twist you know it's possible he is very very Why not two of them you know two versions of the same hero and one cinematic universe, Chris.

Last thing about this. Let me just do a little temperature check for you on the rest of us, the rest of the last of us, because it's a different proposition now. This is going forward question? Okay, I have a way into this. Okay.

A lot of things are obviously going to get swept off the table now because Jackson is diminished, I would say, probably not much of a stronghold. It's a big cleanup crew too. Presumably, Ellie, sorry, Abby and the X Fireflies

are on their way back to Seattle, I guess, you know, the WLF patch on their backpack, talking a little bit about, you know, she's like,

I wouldn't go to Seattle if I were you, but you're not going to have that problem. They said some stuff. They said too much. I would say that I wonder whether there is going to be any, obviously ramifications.

Ellie has now sworn a blood oath to kill Abby anyway. Yeah. But, whether there are still any ramifications about the secret. The secret being that Ellie, the fireflies wanted to sacrifice Ellie for the greater good. Yeah.

And Joel saved Ellie because one life matters. Right. Did they know? Yeah, I was curious about that. Everybody in the room, does Abby know? Does Abby know that the dad was about to kill a little girl? See, that was the one unsaid thing. Because it's kind of like you killed an innocent,

doctor, and I get it. I get, like, broadly what she's saying. Okay, RFK Jr. But they're like, she's like making this big, I think there's some nuance to the story, at least. Yeah, I was curious your take on that because you were, I mean, you led our conversation last week with like, is Joel biting his tongue too much for the purposes of drama? And in this case, in this case, I think the show did an effective thing where what he does say is get on with it.

Yes, but he knows, he feels he deserves it. scalpel in his hand and was about to kill a 14-year-old girl, so I shot him in the head. But I think that in this particular example, I think that it's justifiable because what the show did over the course of the 90 minutes preceding that moment was established that Joel is in emotional agony and is trapped with this and believes on some level he deserves punishment. And so he was open to that punishment arriving. Maybe not with that particular handicap on that par course of his face. It seemed like everybody was also moving on from, like, he's stuck, you know, tinkering with, like, little gadgets in his workshop and overseeing sewage replacement. Yeah.

Yeah. Civilization not pretty. People are moving on. But, but you are right in that I do wonder what they thought was going on and what the goal was because if they, I mean, clearly, their medical capacity has been diminished by his actions. But if they knew that it was all for the girl who they have now just cracked a couple of, of her ribs and left her. Yeah. Why would they do that?

I don't think they knew that, right? And I don't know why that is. And maybe that'll be explored. And who will talk, and, you know, who's going to talk, does, I assume Tommy knew. I don't remember what Tommy knew or didn't knew, didn't know. I ask, because does this create a world where this secret still matters? You know, does that secret have any weight anymore? And then also, like, I think it's a very exciting proposition.

one thing that's really invigorating about this show is even if it's pretty heavy to watch, it moves so much. And like you said, you were a little worried that we were about to settle into Apre Ski for the entire season. Obviously now, Ellie is probably going to recover and now be like, I'm going to follow these people.

I saw this patch to know what this means. I imagine Dina will go with her. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, this is the limit of, like, game spoilers that I had. So I'm very curious about how much time we spend, are we cutting back and forth between Abby and Ellie? Like, do we see a whole other part of the country

through other characters? It's also worth noting that the show is renewed. So whatever closure we're seeking is likely not to come this season. I kind of don't want it. I don't want closure. I want to go all over the place. Right.

I guess I'm saying I don't know what the shape of the show will be through the remainder of the season or what the shape of the show ultimately will be because I don't really know how long the road goes. I'll just

I'll hang my hat on the concern peg and just say it is a very different proposition. I have not in the way that the LA character has been written and performed thus far

has been mostly reactive. Obviously the character is young and is more of in the very beginning. She is the package that has to be delivered and the weight fell on Joel's decision making and charisma and all that. Craig Mason knows what he's doing. So I think that there's probably going to be an opportunity in a few weeks' time to say, we were looking at the larger structure wrong or maybe prematurely and that Ellie's development as a person and as a leader and as a hero of a show was this was in process here.

This is her. The complaints of her being like a petulant teen in last week's episode was intentional because that was the teenage adolescence of the character in a way. Right. And that there'll be a different version going forward. I think that's very possible. I have some doubts about it. I have some doubts about it, about the show being hung entirely on that character as performed thus far. More Abby. That's the answer. I think it's more Abby. And I wonder if that's also the calculation that the game made, that people, have issues with, like because, as you said, apparently she is a playable character. I think that's cool. And that's a cool, that's a dynamic we haven't seen in these types of shows. What do you think happens to all the menswear stores that have flannel-lined wax trucker jackets in stock? I would genuinely watch a web series about Tommy. A web series?

It's not going to be like main content, you know what I mean? but maybe like an expansion pack for the video game of life of Tommy and his pals scouring the mountain west, all the boot barns in the mountain west. You know what I mean?

Like all the RIA outlets just to get the most beautiful all-weather gear and then also all of the ammunition. It doesn't matter and also you can't be like are you going to run out of guns

and ammo in America? Yeah. Not really going to happen. But they were quite free with it. When they were dumping fire on them. They have all the best houses. They're like a 7-Eleven full of weed. Yeah.

You know, all the guns in the world. Did you see there was a CVS? And you know what? I bet toothpaste wasn't under lock and key there. So I'm saying they're upsides to this dystopia. I love all the clothes. I do wonder about, and I know they're on TV, but it's like if, what's the girl's name? The Ellie's girlfriend character who gets this, Dina.

If Dina, if Dina gets frostbite in this weather, Joel could put on a hat. You know what I mean? Yeah, right. Right. You're a hat guy. I am. Yeah.

I mean, you wouldn't catch me dead outside in a blizzard without a knit beanie. I could barely make it through like a London autumn without a hat. The ears get cold. You know what I mean? All right. Well, well, well done to that show. Well done to that show. Talk a little bit about your friends and neighbors.

Yeah, I just, it's, it's, I continue to feel like at the end of that. episode, I was like, absolutely elite. Also, I really don't want to spend my Sunday nights like this genuinely. Like, it's a, I feel like at this, especially at this moment in the world, like it is a bad, dark, violent place to be in. And I don't love that. But what I do love is HBO being like Sunday nights. Better tune in. I like that. I like, I like the chatter. I like the excitement. Yeah. And I like the focus. I like grabbing, grabbing focus of the culture and be like, No, no, pay attention to this. We're going to do something.

It's really impressive to see when TV spends in the right places and really invests in something, how captivating it can still be. You know, I think it's a strange biggest show on TV. I don't know how to, like, geolocate why that is, aside from, like, obviously people love post-apocalyptic dystopian stories. People have a very big investment in this video game, perhaps, as we're learning from the success. of Minecraft. People have way

more investment in video games than we could possibly have even calculated. Than we could, but I think other people are less surprised. Obviously, examples like Halo where it's like that did not set the world on fire, but there are generations of people for whom video games are their stories.

These are the sacred text that they grew up on. And Hollywood seems to be noticing. So, I mean, if they're on this level, if they're on the level of Minecraft, then so be it. For what it's worth, and this might be a future conversation.

I saw Katzenberg and Jack Black at the Lakerscape, by the way. Did you? Yeah, just lording it up. Were they just... Just laughing. Just chicken jockeying? Is that what they were doing?

Kai laughed. Kai is more online than us. She knows. I refuse to find out anything about it. I'm very happy for its success. But it's interesting, you bring up Halo, which it was like,

that was our last of us. But for what it's worth, that was a game in which the... Sweet Master Chief. But no, but literally not that. The experience was us listening to like Wutang Clan albums and playing that game and having fun. I don't think any of us were like,

oh, if only Cortana could secure the room world. That was the problem. And then when they make the movie or the TV show about it, it's like slavishly devoted to a story that was... That you would skip the cutscenes of. Exactly. Yeah. And so I want to kill the hoard.

The successful content is, I think, these types of games that missed us completely that are crafted with the level and thoughtfulness. you know, it does seem of a lot of Hollywood content, or certain things that are just so culturally transcendent, like everybody knows Mario. So a movie that sort of tries to be like, this and this fun to be in Mario, like, is going to do really well with kids.

Well, I'll tell you, I'll leave you with this. If this show successfully does what I understand the video game does, which is force the audience to put themselves in Abby's POV. Right. And if this show now makes Caitlin Deaver, 55% of the show and forces viewers to spend time with

and empathize and ultimately love a character that killed Zaddy that's going to be a major accomplishment. That's really cool that they're going to be if they're able to pull that off. It's going to help add sales of your fan site too.

What's my fan say? Deaver fever. It makes it sound worse than it is. When I say fan site. Okay, I retracts. It's more like a meteorological kind of like we're just keeping an eye on the fronts, you know?

Oh, the pressure systems. Oh, like the is Joel M. B. Hurt tonight website? It just provides information. I was going to start another one for the Rockets called he thought it was him.com. I talked about this with Bill where it was like every night a different rocket

is like, I'm him. And it's like, it doesn't really work out. He can't just. So last night it was Fred Van Vleet. And he was like two for 16. It wasn't. Wow. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. I want to talk about your friends and neighbors. Briefly. Sorry we didn't alert people at the beginning of the episode, but you'll figure it out. This is really.

Nobody does it like us. You know that? I mean, I could go back and be like. I love it. Also, stick around for some incredible friends and neighbors chat. I thought this episode was the continued TV seriesification of the show which I think is

completely fine because I find it to be a soothing balm to watch. I increasingly when I watch the show think of billions. I think of all of the like little nooks and crannies it's like enjoying burrowing itself into in this world.

You know, obviously we just talked about like the amount of money last of us must have cost. I think you can see it with friends and neighbors as well as they build out the kind of universe of stuff that that coop visits with any regularity and I was like I don't know how they did this but like Nick's house is a fully realized like dwelling and realm as is Amanda Pete's house as is Olivia Munn's place so this is legitimate shout out location scouting it's location scouting it's the same sensation you get

from watching taxi where you're like now I'm in this room now I'm in this room but like Like watching a shot on set show where the production winds up becoming a character because it's so familiar. It's the friend's living room. It's cheers. But they're doing it with like 15 mansions throughout Connecticut or Long Island or wherever they shot this thing. And Westchester, I think they're up there. Oh. Well, the Billions piece that I was going to mention is just I always thought like there was an initial kind of like twisty, you know, a DA or an attorney general and a master of.

of industry and they're on a collision course and who only one can win. But then it was like also, what if he tries to buy the Yankees? And also, like, he loves Pearl Jam. And also, like, we have like a whole plot line about like the sexual kinks of everybody involved. And it was like basically created to run on the long term. It's the showtime model. Yeah. And I feel like I can hear notes of that in friends and neighbors because even though you've got this very tight premise that has like a little bit of a ticking clock because it's like, is he going to get caught? Yep. You also have an increasingly wide gallery of characters who are getting more and more grace notes.

It's getting wider and not necessarily deeper. So we're like a dozen people into this show on the third episode of like, oh, okay, so now. So I think my first, I think that's very well observed. And I think my response is actually appropriate to what you were saying. we may have to recalibrate ourselves because it has been a long time since we've engaged with a show that was this open-ended

with this much road promise to it. This is, in many ways, the opposite of a Last of Us conversation because there are no major plot points that are just preset that they are writing to and then writing from. That's very exciting, and it's one of the reasons why... Except for what happens in the first scene of the flash forward.

Right, but they created that. So you're right about that. But so I want to reiterate my feeling after watching the first two, which was very positive and being like, it's kind of fun and exciting. But part of fun and exciting with a long-running show or a hopefully long-running show is there's going to be some bumps along the way. They are going to have to, I can't sit here and say,

I love it when you know, you discover Aaron Paul that you don't want to kill him off, you know, in a show. And these little things that you just, oh, these characters are good together. Well, right for their chemistry. Aaron Paul, is that like a Wake Forest Guard that the Sixers are looking at? You're a 10-day contract guy. I really think he could be a part of the rotation next year. Shout out, Daryl.

Yeah, I can't say like the best things of TV come from those happy in the moment accidents and then not tolerate the unhappy accidents or things that maybe aren't playing out that then the writers can adjust from. That is a very, very long way of caveating this fact that I thought this was. generally a bad episode of TV. It doesn't mean the show is bad. It doesn't mean that you need episodes like this to figure stuff out. But I thought that, like, to be on the third episode and to already be doing the, what's the wife plot?

She's got bugs. That seemed early. You know what I mean? That seemed a little early. It's a metaphor. What? It's your past life. It's still on the walls.

The wife's still there, man. The wife metaphor plot, I feel like we could have probably some other stuff for her to be doing first. Similarly, just the machinations of like guys night and girls night to get the people fighting each other. Like, yeah, you could sort of see, you could feel Jonathan Trapper and the creative team. They're wrangling, they're getting their arms around what kind of show it's going to be. And that's totally reasonable. But it made for a tougher watch. And then my attention goes a gear lower, where I'm like, okay, they're figuring it out this episode.

So then you start paying attention to the stuff that you might otherwise not nitpick because the momentum of the A plot is so strong. And then on that level, it's things like, what is the show's attitude towards this kind of ultra wealthy suburban on-way? Well, I think it's trying to have it both ways. I think it's trying to have it both ways. And I feel like that makes sense and it's safe and it's Apple. notes early, but I would like it to ultimately have an opinion. I don't care. I kind of do because it feels soft without it.

Well, I think that in interviews, Ham has described it as a criticism or a critique of like mass consumption of consumption on this level. But it's not. So far, it's a critique of it really is boring to only talk about whiskey. It's not actually. And so this is a premature moment to bring up this argument. But when it gets a little. soft, that's when I start to notice it. Again, the show is snapping into place. Yes. And that is

totally fine. The only other note of criticism that I'd like to bring up is I do think that, you know how you've, you had volunteered years ago, and I feel like more people should have taken you up on this, that you would be a filmed basketball consultant for shows like, and I'm not even talking about the basketball in this, but you were, you know, Mr. Robot, season two had a pickup game that, you know, drew some criticism from you. And you were like, let me just see the tape. Let me just walk the court. Let me just cast the guys. Like, you could really, you can go to most gyms and just find like 10 dudes who could probably like stand in the right place camera wise. Like we're blocking. And like they'll be able to dribble.

Is Rosillo available? No, but you draw. I remain dedicated to the idea that you cast basketball players who can act rather than actors who pretend like they can play basketball. Fantastic point. Yeah. What I would like to suggest is that there should also be. And you would have to structure it differently because of child labor laws. But I do think you need. you need a teen or tween on call when you are writing a show that involves contemporary teens or tweens. Because I held my tongue last week on Mike, I think. I am brave. Thank you. When they cut to the 15-year-old's bedroom and the only thing in his bedroom was an artfully hung, perfectly angled poster for the French Electro Act M83.

Yes. Okay. But so that's our direction. Ocks, Glockhouse is coming back. But just like, okay, okay. The sleazy aunts are back. Okay, pitchfork. Let me just say.

That dude has cobra sneak on the way back machine. That, I'm willing to accept any of that. I just, I draw the line at a drug-addled teenage house party in the year of our Lord 2025 being brought to a absolute riveting, like, silent standstill by a high school cover band performing Matthew Sweet sick of myself. one of the great songs, but respectfully, respectfully, show me the tape. Show me the 15-year-old in 2025 who's just like, I got it. I have been surprised by the popularity of alt rock. Like 90s alternative rock hits that have just been coming back.

I feel like that style of music is very popular right now. This is, by the way, this is like every political substack I have where people are like, the mood among young people is strong. I'm just saying that when you hear young, Bunger bands, they're talking about like, oh, we really wanted it to sound like Teenage Fan Club or whatever. Totally. Like, the band I like Mama just sounds like, like, what if helium breeders and third eye blind but now? I'm like, great.

I love this formula. Right. But I also... They're in their 20s. So would a 15-year-old be playing Matthew Sweet's Power Pop and... While wearing a Cure t-shirt? Yes. I think we all wish that's the case.

Jonathan Robert does, yeah. Yeah. And I don't mind also. Like a lot of the creative arts are fantasy, right? even if they don't involve a giant name 1-1. Like, I have a fantasy that my children might one day like a song I like. One day they might, and maybe in a future screenplay. Can I ask you just to get personal?

Please, it's about time. That matters to you? No, but it would feel good once. Yeah. I want them to have their own distinct taste. I think my parents' love of the Beatles actually is one of the original reasons why I'm probably more of a Stone's person. Yeah, I don't...

Like, I just think you're always going to be in opposition to their tastes. Okay, but here, I completely agree, but I also think, and I spend a lot of time thinking about this, so I'm closing the laptop and let's really talk about this. I think there's a fine line, because I do want them to... I don't need a laptop either. No, this is... These are your kids. What are you playing?

You've just been texting them? I'm updating deeper fever. I think that I want them to have... their own distinct taste, but I also don't want my opinions and taste to be a completely closed circuit. Because for example, like at my house growing up, my father liked the music that he liked, and it was very avant-garde classical, which I don't have any opinion about. But sometimes I'm like, I wonder if he had been like, I like this because of these reasons. I would have been like, oh, that's interesting. That shows like a whatever. And then maybe I also wouldn't have spent

not insignificant parts of my high school life being like, dad, this is automatic for the people. It's by REM. I feel like Find the River is a lovely, you know, there's a folk tradition to this song that made you to appreciate it. Why are you doing your dad as you as a teenager talking to your dad? Because that's how I would address him. The only artist that he ever liked was pulp. Of all the bands that I liked, he's like, oh, there's a clever class consciousness at play. And now you bring that same energy to your podcast, yes. When you're watching. When I'm criticizing your friends and neighbors.

A TV show made by a technology company. 100% the case. Yeah. But anyway, to answer your question, no, I do not force my children to listen to Matthew Sweet albums, not even girlfriend. Okay. But it would be cool, but it's not up to me. I think that you will find, hopefully, that they, as they get older, will maybe embrace more of your film tastes. But music is a really, like, I think it's a very possessive and oppositional kind of passion.

I think it historically is. I do think that the avenues towards discovering. oppositional tastes are choked now. Do you? I do. I do. I do think that, and also just generally a generational shift in terms of feelings about popularity has changed.

You know, like for us, like popular things were met with some degree of skepticism. If only they could hear Matthew Sweet. If only they could hear this, if only they could appreciate Jarvis Cocker's incisive observations about entrenched class culture. No, I mean, I just think that like,

I like a lot of pop music. But I think there's other stuff out there too. Yeah. Didn't see you at the Circle Pit at Def Heaven this weekend. Brother, I can't believe you dodged our Monday banter on a weekend when you... I did not see. You didn't see me in the Circle Pit either. I was viewing from a high ground.

But our listeners deserve to know that in one calendar day, in 2025, you went from a Lakers playoff game to a Deaf Heaven concert. that began at 10. Okay? Yeah. That is our Ironman. I can't. It was pushing the limits. I can't believe you did that. You see guys and they're like, you know, they've done, they're finishing tour to France and they've just done the Pyrenees and they're just like, I'm, I don't know if I've got anything left. That was me as I was walking through downtown Los Angeles on my way to the blast. Were you able to change your blood the way toward France? I mean, those blast beats certainly reinvigorated my stream. I, I had a great time. Uh, thank you. I went with Yassi and when I went with Mansookas.

So it was really fun. That's really fun. I was obsessed. The singer from death heaven, I think either greatly injured or tore his calf while playing. But like absolutely you wouldn't know it, watching him.

He sunk the free throws despite. Who had a better weekend? The singer from death heaven or Fred. Philip Rivers with a broken leg. Fred Van Fleet or the singer from deaf Evan. Who was more him? Definitely the singer from death heaven. I'm just impressed like, I, you know,

I'm just impressed that you are still finding the limit. You know what I mean? You know, I will say this, just since we're talking today, and we're now a minute, whatever, I have reached this weird spot where if you, you have to wear earplugs when you're seeing deaf heaven. Yeah. But when you wear earplugs,

unless you have like the really great, like some auditory doctor made it for me, like it's a little, like everything is a little underwater, and then you pull them out for a second and you're like, oh, I would be having massive, brain hemorrhress if I had my earplugs out. And then you put it back in. They're like, oh.

So you're like, you're just, you're like, ah, you're like, ah, and you put it back in. You're like, yeah, I can't really hear. So it was like a very, like, it was right there, but they, they were, they were great. They were, they were awesome. They played mostly lonely people with power, which is the album. Were you really focused on the drummer or were you?

I was entirely focused on the drummer. This is a drummer week for me. This is really a new chapter for you. I was, I was watching everybody. It was a great, it was a great vibe, but like, the drummer is just like, unbelievable. And you weren't in the pit. You were never a pit guy, were you? No, not really. Not really. I've worn glasses for such a long time. It's just not really something I want to find out what glasses in the pit are like. I think because people in the pit are like...

I did see an older man in the pit. I think it was an all-age of show. And I saw an older guy wearing a neon green Apex twin t-shirt. Yeah. Just absolutely getting destroyed, but clearly loving it. And knowing all the... And I was just like, maybe I should be him, you know? I don't have kids I got to worry about making sure they're okay. Was it a 45-year-old man or was it a 15-year-old by your friends and neighbors? What's up, fellow metalheads? Deaf Heaven's combination of shoegays and black metal

sure gets me fired up. What do they think about capitalism? All right, we'll wrap up. Obviously, we're going to be coming at you tomorrow with a special episode because we've got Andor returning tomorrow night. And we've got Tony Gilroy joining us. So we're really excited to share that.

episode with folks. We'll be talking broadly about the three episodes. The first three. Yeah, that are airing tomorrow night. Obviously, with Andor, it's, you know, everybody's on a different schedule in terms of watching three hours of TV about. But Tony spoke broadly about the season.

I don't really find there to be a lot of spoilers in there. And we'll try to keep our conversation about the three episodes a little more light and maybe we'll dive in more depth on Thursday. Great seeing you. Maybe we'll talk about all sorts of stuff on Thursday, but I just hope your kids finally open up their hearts to Matthew Sweet.

Maybe my dad will call in with a top 10 songs he didn't hate from 1994. Stings Fields of Gold, he thought, spoke, you know, echoed with sounds of English folk music. I think he liked that one. Talk to you guys soon.