The Watch - The Latest Episode of 'Industry,' 'A League of Their Own,' and the Problems With 'She-Hulk: Attorney At Law'

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

Chris and Andy break down the latest episode of 'Industry' and the way the show is using traditional TV conventions to its advantage (2:01). Then, Andy talks about how 'A League of Their Own' is finding a separate voice from the original movie (31:33), and they review the first episode of 'She-Hulk: Attorney At Law' (48:02). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's The Song of Bison Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson. I've read every book in George R. Martens, The Song of Ice and Fire. And I'm Neil Miller, and I have also read all of those books. We are headed back to Westeros to cover the Game of Thrones spin-off series, House of the Dragon. We'll be answering your question, so send us a raven at trial by content at gmail.com. Take some bread and salt and join us Thursdays on the trial by content feed, and don't worry, you're safe. The reins of Castamere hasn't even been written yet. You know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us,

the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. Hey guys, Andy here. Quick note before we get into today's show, Chris is still on vacation, the lucky bastard.

and he's having a great time on the East Coast, which is absolutely fine. I'm not jealous in any way. But I wanted to let you know that he was kind enough to record with me in advance, half of today's show talking about this week's episode of Industry was season two, episode three, aired Monday night. We loved it so much.

We had to talk. We were going to talk 10 minutes. I think it's closer to 20 or 30, but we love the show. So that's going to be the first part of the show, replete with a classic CR intro and everything. At the end, you'll hear him say, probably with some genuine trepidation in his voice.

He has no idea what I'm going to do next. I think he predicted the worst. We'll see whether he was right or not. But I am not forcing you all on a return visit to Datington Island instead. Since we already did a lot on an episode of industry, I thought we could just do some more contemporary television show talk. So I will be talking a little bit about the new Amazon Prime series, A League of Their Own, as well as the latest Marvel offering on the Disney Blues service,

Shehulk, which premiered. late last night or today, Thursday. So we got three new shows to talk about with you. You'll hear me and Chris on industry and then your boy flying solo talking a league of their own and she-hulk. Let's get into today's episode of The Watch. I need sports to have to clear the room.

Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he answers to the man who pays. It's Andy Greenwald! What's up, buddy?

We're doing a little time machining right now. So we're recording this in the future. Andy, it's the previous week. I'll be on vacation when people hear this, but we wanted to get together to talk about the third episode of industry. The episode is called The Fool. Folks know how we feel about this show, so we wanted to make sure we kept hitting it every week.

Greenwald, you look great. How are you doing? I feel great. I'm really excited to talk about the show. I feel like episode two of season two of industry, which was amazing, got a little bit of short shrift because it had the misfortune of airing the same night as the penultimate episode of Better Call Saul, which definitely caused show creators Mickey Down and Conrad Kay to cheekily tweak me for posting something on Instagram about how Monday night featured one of the best episodes of television of the decade. But you know what? I like the moxie. I like the moxie. I appreciate the high heat because they're delivering. They're delivering. We didn't really give that episode to the full force of our attention because of the Saul episode, but also because we had talked to Mickey and Conrad the week before and kind of alluded to some of the amazing things that happened at the end of it. But I would actually argue that this episode is a little bit superior and maybe it's superior because it is building on the incredible momentum of that last scene. But this was a total joy and a total pleasure beginning to end. Yeah, let me tell you something.

And we're spoiling this episode going forward. So if you haven't watched yet, obviously, check that out. Poor Kaya. She hasn't watched it yet. Sorry, Kaya. When they do the smash cut from Eric in the Hunting Lodge, calling Harper and goes straight to voicemail, and then they smash cut to the exact same framing of Harper on the Pierpont floor pre-open.

I'm like, this show is better than this. pranos. When the talking heads needle drop hits? Well, you know, because they said to us, because Mickey and Conroy, when they came on, they were talking about how they wanted some of the banking, specifically the banking scene, the scene from the end of episode two where Rishi is yelling about cucks, they wanted that to feel like the bank robbery and heat. And that scene at the end of episode three felt like when Will Graham figures out Hannibal

Lecter and Manhunter, you know, like I really do feel like there was like a of feeling in my bloodstream when that cut hit and that last two minutes of her getting Rishi to execute the sale or execute the deal where Jesse Bloom basically takes over Rikhan, this telehealth business that has been at the center of the first few episodes. And up into including one of my favorite needle drops in TV history, which is this must be the place by the talking heads coming on. I don't know. I'm just so over the moon about this. I got to be honest, with you and with our listeners and with everybody, like, people know we love the show. And I was going to say my concern was getting a little in front of our skis, both because the show is primarily about people skiing in the colloquial sense.

In the Craigslist sense, yeah. Yeah, but also they get early 2000s Craigslist sense. For people who don't know, that was like a big thing where it was like the urban legend that you could buy cocaine on Craigslist by looking up skiing as a search term. But also people would get real like, people would post things just like, you know, looking to go cross country this weekend with a few trusted friends. Yeah. You know, I'd be like, really? Because I would like to get some exercise. But also I would like to make friends in Vermont.

Anyway, because we really, obviously, we like Mickey and Conrad a lot. We love the first season of the show. And I have to admit that when I press play on the season premiere, I was a little bit like Rishi at the end of the last episode. Now, was I screaming at everyone around me? No, thankfully, I turned it on alone. But I did feel a lot of stress. Like, was this going to deliver? Were we going to be able to execute?

Where the buyers and sellers are going to find common ground here? And the moments at the end of the second episode where it suddenly came together and became that Michael Mann car chase scene, but in an office block in the city in London, like I felt so relieved. I felt great.

And this just built on it. I thought that just from a construction perspective, this was a brilliantly architected episode of TV. It was really interesting to watch this after our conversation with them about, you know, trying to lean into TV conventions. We've heard both Mickey and Conrad refer to watching or rewatching some of their favorite shows, whether it's, you know, Mad Men, they reference a lot. I felt some succession vibes on this in the best possible way because the main lesson from succession,

other than maybe make a decision about your children's inheritance. Sure. To me is have an event. Have an event every week. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, if you can, like take people off their squares, put guns in their hand, if possible, and then let it fly and see what happens. And my feeling, and then we can get into the specifics of the episode, but I just want to say, like, there's nothing that is humming at this level right now for me, just in terms of pleasure and excitement and anticipation, aesthetics too, which are just immaculate.

Like the title card dropping over Harper masturbating while high on a bathroom floor. I mean, chef's kiss. But I just want to say, Chris, this is a reference that you'll get. I don't know if our listeners will, but making an obscure reference to something cultural from the UK feels right in this moment. You remember the all-time great Steve Coogan as Alan Partridge clip where he's doing the World Cup highlights, but he doesn't understand soccer. Like attraction engine, yeah. When he just shouts liquid football. Yeah.

That's how I feel about. That's how I feel watching these guys talk about, like, you know, high-end yield hedge fund trading or whatever. Like, I don't know what the fuck they're talking about. but I know poetry when I hear it. Let's stick with not knowing what the fuck you're talking about because I think that what they're doing here is also kind of a masterpiece of density. Shows can be very explicit about what they're about.

And I don't mean what they're about. It's about a cop looking for a murderer or something like that. I mean, they can be very explicit about the themes of the show. The show is very obviously putting forward the ideas about class in the UK, but also in the Western world in general. It's putting forward ideas about sobriety. You know,

yeah, as being called an intoxicant is quite a character summation by Rob. There's ideas about what you owe people in a professional setting versus what you owe them in a personal setting and what happens when the line between those two things collapse. It's about ambition.

It's about all these different things. And then it's also about this very, very, probably in terms of if you've worked at Goldman or if you've worked at Merrill or if you've worked at these places, like the Rikhan deal is pretty obvious to you. But I think for a layman is probably just like, what the fuck is happening?

But they can do the dense jargon-filled version of that. And then they can also do Harper's choosing between Jesse and Eric. Eric has already chosen Fellum. Like chosen Fellum. There are these other players, this Anna woman who is obviously advocating for more of like, a socially conscious, socially minded version of this business

than the actual owner of the business wants. And you can see that all play out. And for me, it's like even though obviously there are blank spots to say the least about like the level of, my level of understanding of what's happening, I get it. You know, I never don't get it.

And I guess that's the, that's the real testament to what they've written. Yeah, I think it works. I mean, and we should get into some of the interpersonal character stuff that was done just, expertly in this episode. But, you know, the show is well-named.

And we've talked before about how people who don't work in this specific industry can find things to recognize or relate to. You know, when the season premiered, I was comparing it a little bit to the bear. I mean, there's something that's very specific that happens when you work closely with people under strenuous conditions, which is basically a job, I guess, in the 21st century. The romance goes away real fast. emotion gets leached out of things really, really quickly. And you find yourself talking about things that once held kind of glittery potential or hope

the way you would be talking about widgets or chess pieces or whatever. And this episode, the language used to talk about health care. And then the way that health care actually played a part in the episode, albeit minor, right? Fellam gets some buckshot in the face, thanks to Jesse, who it must be noted, was taking aim during cocktail hour at a... a legally protected rare bird and instead wings off film's glasses. He then talks about how, you know, even though he is a billionaire, he has to wait in line at the NHS, right?

And then we have the new character who Gus ends up pairing off with at the end for conversation, who says that, you know, she's the compassionate Tory. And they all talk about what can pass and what can be accepted by the public when you begin to consider the privatization of health care and all of it. And it's like they're batting around a dead mouse, right? There is no moment in this where they are talking about, you know, people's actual lives or well-being. And it's just an expertly drawn metaphor for who these people are when they only feel alive when they've taken all of the humanity out of something. Yeah. You know, it's really, it was just so remarkably done and done, especially in this episode, with such an expertly chosen cast of characters in a particularly funny and at least for American audiences, very disconcerting setting.

Yes. I mean, even for, and did you, what did you think of the way that they brought Gus kind of back into the fold? Because he's not in the first episode, I don't believe, for maybe he briefly. I think he opens the door at the end. Like, he is the new roommate we see his blue hair. I texted you this. Like, I'm thrilled with Gus's usage rate this season. You know, shout out Kevin Peldon and John Hollinger or whatever other NBA staticians.

I don't know how to credit. But I thought probably like many that he was off the show this season because he, he bombed. out of Peerpoint at the end of last season. I'm loving his presence here. Yeah, I don't know why I keep calling it Pierpont. It's a PurePoint. Maybe that's the American pronunciation. Pierpont's the people who run my money, actually.

Oh, do you really? Because they took the eye out of it. That's right. And it's really more of a team thing. Yeah, it's sort of a... It's a great pivot. I really appreciate and respect that. I like having a character, first of all, who is human at the moment.

Although we see his eyes light up with a certain, you know, the cold light of ambition again at the end. end of this one. But I just am enjoying his energy. And I think another smart thing about the season is the way that sobriety is becoming kind of a theme of the show in general with the way that, you know, the currents can change in mid-swim. And so like the Yasmin scene with Kenny and, what's, Maximo or something? Basically, she's trying to rock-o. It's basically, she's, Rocco. Maxim is the guy who was handling her family's money, who she's developed, started a relationship with. But she's at that, in that scene with Kenny and Rocco, and they're supposed to be talking about crypto.

And she's poaching almost. Yeah, but like the thing that's fascinating about that scene is how her currency is her ability, obviously, like, to speak not only literally many languages, but to, you know, move within the circles of these sort of moneyed, almost aristocratic families. And then the thing is, is that the one language being spoken at that table, well, the two languages being spoken at that table are NFTs. and bored apes and doge coin, which she's just like, I don't know,

and the language of sobriety. And are you a friend of Bill? You know, like, do you know my friend Bill? And it's just amazing how she can go from, I'm the insider, I'm the person who has like the inside track here to, I have no idea what you guys are talking about. My drinking almost seems goush at this point.

I'm the person showing up at Rob's house and doing bumps now. Like, she is spiraling out a little bit trying to find herself. The show has a really, I think smart and intuitive angle on people's behavior, good and bad. And what I mean is, like, you know, the show begins in a really terrific place, basically celebrating the triumph of the heat bank robbery scene at the end of the last episode.

And we see Rishi and Harper doing some, you know, I think Olympic level slaloming in a public bathroom. And I'm reminded again that one of the triumphs of the show is that Harper is ostensibly the lead and she's a total mess. And she's also a genius. And I love that the show doesn't pick aside. The Rob, the Rob, the line was brilliant. Perfectly where she's like, you know, she's just so gifted or whatever.

And he's like, is she? Or does she just never take her foot off the gas? And the fact, I mean, again, I credit Mickey and Conrad a lot for allowing the characters to be both. I think that's a really challenging thing to do. And I mean that in a empathetic way because we love these characters. I'm sure they love these characters too. And there's just a tendency in all TV to just kind of.

drift towards everyone's good because we love them and we want them to be good. And I love that the show is committed to making sure that they are whole and entire people. But in terms of the sobriety, like, it can be very seductive when you're in a world where everybody is doing one thing to assume that that's the norm. And the show sometimes puts us in that world, like the party in the season premiere, where rich people are just absolutely not worried about COVID. And Yasmin meets, I'm blanking on her name, the private wealth woman, Celeste, and thinks she's a sex worker, but literally everyone in that room is speaking the same language, and it's the language of the Winter Olympics.

As soon as you are outnumbered in a situation, as Yasmin is at that table, it all seems, as you said, it seems off. It doesn't seem right, you know, and so it's just another currency that's at play here, and having Rob now be sober and be willing to go to bed and to walk away from the opportunity he's been looking for in this time, potentially not involving devourable. broken glass is really significant and strong choice for the character. You can't get your footing, right? And that's something that I like. Yeah, it's also awesome to sort of start to see pathologies of characters develop that are not necessarily written in as like character

backstories. So specifically, you know, Harper, obviously, there's some stuff with her brother. There's like stuff with her background and where she comes from that is like evident on the screen. And then there's stuff that starts to develop just because if you watch this character for now our, what, like, 12 or whatever we're on here. I don't know that this person is a person who can function when she's not crying, screaming, and throwing up.

You know, like, it seems like the optimal place or the place that she finds her, like, her chi is when everything is cranked up to volume 11, moving at 90 miles per hour, and the fate of the world is resting on her. shoulders and whether or not Rishi's going to execute this block trade for her or whatever. And I don't know that she was, it's interesting to sort of like think about the year that she's in this hotel room and wonder, like, I wonder if she's just like clinically depressed because

she's not holding a knife to Eric's throat the entire time, you know, or juggling Jesse Bloom's like $40 billion. I think it's notable that she is one million percent endorphins. deficient when she gets on the train to go to this event, this shoot. There's really only two options at that moment. Great seating arrangement for the best possible seat.

What on the train? Where the guy from right can is like, make sure you take out page 27 of this deck. Yeah, it should have gone to the quiet car, my guy. You know, I don't think it takes, and I don't think it takes someone with experience with Harper's previous evening to understand that they're really only two paths. Like you can go to sleep for 48 hours or you can try to climb the mountain again. And

she doesn't have drugs handy, but what she does have is this killer instinct, right? And the endorphins that come from doing this. Where do you feel, let's do a spot check just like the Harper-Erick relationship is moving very, very fast. And there are a lot of cross currents because the pen scene, first of all, just great, that's just great TV writing that he gives her the pen and then Jesse needs the pen. And it becomes not a, it's not a gist. It's not a if it's a Memento Memento Mori. It's great stuff. I would say Chekhov's pen, but it's,

Hobbesian pens? I don't know. It's Hobbs' pen. So do you... That was a significant scene on some level, as typical of the characters. There's some generosity, and there's also some check yourself in it. Where are we with this dynamic?

And where else can it go? I mean, this is the third episode of the second season of a show. The guys told us themselves that the Harper-Ery dynamic, whether it was intentional or not, was the spine. of season one. And I think it's wise to diversify the portfolio, so to speak, but it isn't seemingly a, I don't know how you come, obviously you can come back from this and you can go on, but it does seem like this is a fatal blow. Well, it kind of reminds me a little bit of some of the ways in which

we talked about, and I won't give anything away for this series, but the way that we talked about Lalo on Better Call Saul. And it's like the temptation is probably there in the writer's room for industry to have a Harper, Eric blow up every episode because there's something electric that comes off of those two performers when they are matched up against one another. And I think that you could, you could easily, I mean, to my eyes at least, it feels like they are burning through Eric plot, right? Like, there is obviously plenty of stuff that we can still learn about Eric, but I don't know how many moves he has left here, which isn't to say that, you know, I don't understand really what somebody's boss

at a place like Peerpoint does anyway, but doesn't it feel as though like what's happening between Harper and Eric is something that we almost waited the entirety of season one for and has now happened twice in season two and it doesn't seem like after this sale is executed, Eric's going to have like much...

I mean, he might have recourse, but I don't know where their relationship goes. Yeah, my feeling about this, especially what happens at the very end of the episode, is if the end of the previous episode was Michael Mann's heat, the end of this episode was Michael Mann's Last of the Mohicans

where Harper has literally reached into Eric's chest cavity and eaten his heart in front of him. What's interesting about the Eric character... The rest of the series is Michael Mann's Miami Vice. Please. And by that you mean the cinematic exploration of the theme, right?

It's just all go fast boats and bloated Colin Farrell. God, what a masterpiece. Okay, but the Eric character is one of my favorites on the show and one of the most compelling and Ken Lung's performance is awesome. I really like the way that they hid the ball about his personal life, such as it is, until the back half of the last season. That grocery store scene, yeah, where she sees it with his daughter. He's like a normal person. He is, he appears to be uniquely

vulnerable, which again is a good place for drama to start. But he basically only got his job back because of Harper, right? And now the DVD guy's in from America and all. of America is looking at London, and she basically just exed out his richest and most capable or dependable client. If we rock Phelham again here, he's never going to do business with us again. And as Phelham himself says, like, so now if you can't do business for me, all we have is what is your personality and, and, you know, good luck with that. Character, good luck with that.

He was like, nice knowing you for a time. For a time. These guys are all monsters. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting place to be. I mean, I'm sure he was like. He did get shot the face. And when we talked to Mickey and Conrad again,

I just want to commend them for that because that felt to me like the kind of thing that you pitch to your writing partner or to your writer's room at the end of an afternoon when you've sort of done incremental half steps of things that could happen. The idea of the character who doesn't like the other one shooting him in the face,

Dick Cheney style, is the boldest choice and thus the best choice. I also, by the way, just putting in a sidebar, we'll make a request to them that when they're back, they could just read us all of the outtakes of things for mean things to say about crypto because it's just a like a momentary throwaway before Kenny's just like, yeah, I got into that shit. It's great. It's great stuff. Is it my imagination or is there, because they've gotten

to the point now where it's not just the Rishi lines that are said off screen, but like punched in so that they're almost like narrating. But like didn't somebody say when Felham gets shot like someone download the Rikan app. Well, yeah, but someone was just like, do we have any doctors here? Or is everyone just to finance? Also, by the way, you know, it's not as if I wasn't already in the tank for the show, but the Yaz-Kennie scene at the bar, at the restaurant does begin with just like essentially spawncon for Albon Climot, one of my favorite wineries in Santa Barbara.

So shout out to them. You know what I mean? Like, that's fantastic. And I hope that it merits a response. You mentioned the aesthetics of the show. I just, I want to just mention Nathan McKay's score because there will just be like

the most ordinary shot of like Yasmin sitting at a table waiting for Celeste to walk into an office. But like the score is playing. And I'm like, this is more beautiful than when like Richard gear, gear ran across a field of wheat and days of heaven.

Yes, but Chris, now they know that. Yeah, I know. Because they dropped it with the Yasmin Rob scene where I'm like, oh my God, like, young love run free. Like, this is going to happen. Like, they just bought tickets to Bone Town. And then the music drops out and they just started laughing. Yeah. Well done.

Well done. Yes, means dad. Good dad, bad dad. Oh, yeah. So this is what I want to talk about. Taddington Island. First of all, one of us needs to adopt him as our fashion icon. It's all you, Doug.

And I don't mean I'm into wearing Lycra pants in disrespectful ways at professional business meetings, but there was something incredible about the workout clothes. It's not even athleisure, because we've talked before, and now I think we're a little older, we respect it, that when one of our heroes, the great Greg Dooley from Afghan wigs and Twilight Singers came into the studio to pod with us, and he was just wearing like tearaway pants, like an NBA player. And I was like, you don't have to talk me into that look. He's earned it. You know, I just want to dress like Yergen Klopp every day. So this, but this guy, it was, it's the head, it was the sort of, it was the sort of

like in ear like workout ear butts just draped around the beats that he has like around the neck yeah oh it's legendary it's legendary

um so I'm sorry you want to go back to good dad bad dad is that is that really is this how you're teeing me up because remember we're airing this a week after I just did

45 minute monologues about Louis if you do 45 minutes on Bluie this this pod's gonna be on Patreon before I get back from vacation it's gonna be doing very well we're gonna be like public broadcasting, like asking for

listener donations every quarter. What else is I going to ask you? Oh, I wanted to just quickly do a Duplast check. Is the free gift for a certain donation, the PurePoint Ski Club tote bag? Yeah, apprae ski. J2 Plus is just awesome.

Fucking Michael Claytoning the button here? Like, what's going on? Well, first of all, he is a great actor, as we said, and it's so fun watching him be a great actor because it's like watching someone realize they could be a great actor. It reminds me of like, and we talked about this in a different context, but like the great show Quantum Leap when Scott Bacula would jump into someone's body, then be able to do the thing that the character could do. Like, that's kind of the feeling I get watching Jay Duplos be like, yeah, I'm fucking here. Let's go. But I just think, and maybe this is a projection,

I mean, he's a smart guy, so this doesn't necessarily need to be magic. But he is himself a writer and director and gets good writing, good language, and also good vibes. You know what I mean? I think he understands the show that he was joining. Yeah, I would also, I have no idea if they shot this like in order necessarily or what was block shot or anything from episode to episode. But it does feel like he's getting more and more comfortable with the rhythms of the language of this show with every episode. Maybe that's just me getting used to him saying it.

There's also just little touches with his character, like him taking his shoes off when he goes into Harper's room. That's just like, that is like a little jet like it's a split second, but it's like great writing because, or it's great performing. If that was Jay Duplass's idea, like, to be like, what if he did this because he trusts like, he's showing her, like, vulnerability by being like, I'm just a guy with my socks drinking a beer. Also, he's, he's an American and she's an American. And neither of them feel like they belong there, but they, but they, in some ways, but they know that they do because they have either the skills or, frankly, the cash to play. And so they're not going

to go by rules. And I thought that was another interesting, or not by rules, but by tradition. So I thought that was interesting too, where of the primary four that were sparring in the episode, Phelham and Eric are a team. And Eric is also an American. Yeah. At the point where he says, you know, it's a weird island. But he does believe in some old traditions and old rules. And suddenly is, you know, basically, he's the one being like, oh, you don't ask people how many birds they've shot. Right.

How do you think you would do in a shoot? I'd probably catch bookshot in the face, like if I have to be honest. I'm just very unaware of my surroundings in that regard. Like I would probably be like wandering out into the middle of the shooting part. But in terms of just being able to hang, you know, I think I'd be fine. I think you'd be, I want to say this. I've said this before about you in other contexts. And I love telehealth.

You can hang, though. You know, I've told the story. But like one of the great sites of hanging out with young Chris in the early 2000s was going to a Phillies game and having a little time between like waiting, you know, getting the Tony Luke's roast pork sandwich and like sitting down to watch Pat Burrell mashed taters. Yeah.

And Jim Tomey, I guess was the one who said that. But I'm dating us. Anyway, Chris would be like, we got time to go into the fast pitch. And you were just like uncork the 75 mile per hour heat. You're a young man. 60 at the highest. That was it.

But still, that was some cocky shit to be like, yeah, I'm just going to use my free time. You don't forget. We all know you used to play literally. But that is still a public stage. That's Citizens Bank Park. Now, were you in the bullpen? No.

No. But there were a lot of dudes around who would have let you know, the boo birds, if you will. So I feel like at a shoot, I could just see you at least look in the part. You know what I mean? I would just turn to the guy next to me. I'd be like, you ever see heat? This is why you're good at parties. We can wrap it up there.

I'm so excited to see what you have for the second half of this show. So yeah, so this is interesting because this is, we're pre-recording. You're providing telehealth right now for a dying podcast. The right can of the watch. You're going to be grouse hunting on vacation. And usually, though, when we record a bit, like a section, it's just a section.

But you opened the pot. So you've basically set the table, served the meal the people want, clear the dishes. And now you're like... Scissor person that she is, she could cut out my intro if you just want to make this until the second half.

But I think that this episode of industry, warrants leading the pot. We're episode seven of the bear. No cuts. You know what I mean? Like, we're, one take. We're showing everybody what we got. I know that I think that we never cut,

but I do wonder how much Kaya cuts. It's true. Chris, do you ever listen to the Watch podcast? Rarely. Very rarely. Have you ever listened to an episode of the Watch? I'm not sure if I have. Is it good?

I don't know. It depends on what blue of you do. I'm waiting for it to hit page. Patreon. What if Bluey was the kids? If we go independent, you coming with us?

Of course. I'll follow you guys anywhere. We don't pay well. By the way. But we know a guy who's in a telehealth. What if guys, what if Bluey all this time

was the kid's spin-off of Breaking Bad? And it was just about the meth, right? Is it? Do you think more people will look? What do you mean? Is it?

It's like a metaphor? Is it? I'm just, You said depends how much bluey you do, which definitely sounded like a metaphor. That does sound Craigslistee. Okay, well, this has been an interesting conversation. Andy, have a lovely week without me. I'll be back for Thrones at some point in the near future.

Chris, thanks for joining me for the last episode of The Watch. It's really been, it's been a great run. We'll talk to you guys soon. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere? and realize you're missing something, like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike,

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Okay, guys, well, Chris is enjoying some lobster rolls, maybe some summer ales, the humidity of East Coast. You got me. And as I said at the top, we're going to talk a little bit about the new Amazon Prime series, A League of Their Own, which is streaming now, as well as the first episode of She-Hulk Attorney at Law, which just premiered on the Disney Plus Network. But before we get into that, I did want to digress a little. No, not about my weekend trip to Legoland, which was excellent, by the way.

I don't care what the haters say. It's a very fun park. It's a very sweet park. And actually, Mommingtons and Daddington's out there, super pro tip that many of you already know, if and when your children ask, no, demand that you take them on a VR experience ride, you can just close your eyes. That's really all you have to do. You can just close your eyes and it really doesn't last long.

And you can hear them screaming in delight or as I found out with my younger daughter, screaming in terror that her death was imminent, you're not going to get nauseous. you'll be fine. So that's my tip. But aside from that, I did want to talk about something. I know that there's been some feedback. People have been asking us to talk about a certain show. I want you guys to know that we hear you, we see you. I know that there's some desire for us to talk about it. But I guess I did also want to tell you this small anecdote, which doesn't entirely explain why we're not covering this show. You know, as you guys know, Chris is on vacation. Can't cover everything without him. His voice matters. 50-50 split. But maybe it influenced.

the decision a little. So set the scene for you guys. As you know, I live in Los Angeles, California now after 17 years in Brooklyn. I've been here. If you ask me, honestly, I would tell you I've been here for two years, maybe three tops, but that's what happens when you don't have seasons outside of four-year consideration Emmy season and also when there's a pandemic. So actually, I've been here six years. And Chris has been here, shockingly, 10 years. And we've been podcasters for, as you know, 10 years. We are by no means celebrities. We are not in any way famous. We are not, we are barely noteworthy. It's proof of that. If you ever Google us, check the picture that comes up for Chris Ryan. We all love Chris. The CR heads know. But to this day, Wikipedia provides

the image of a very tough ex-military special ops British fiction writer named Chris Ryan, who, by the way, should have been my special guest for today's solo portion of the pot. Anyway, what I wanted to say was, we don't matter, except in one specific pocket of the universe, and that is roughly in the neighborhood of Silver Lake, in the sunset junction area, we are maybe C plus listers. I have traveled the world. Occasionally someone will recognize me, or someone will recognize Chris, I hear from him all the time. For some reason, if we cross the street in the sunset junction area, people will shout all sorts of Baranski-related content from moving cars. It's flattering. It's nice. We love to meet you out in the world. Thank you for all of that. All of this is to not be a brag or a humble brag or any kind of brag. It's really just to set the scene that when I got a coffee the other week at a local business, I'll shout it out. No free ads, but I love dinosaur coffee on my laptop to get a little work done. I saw something that was not unfamiliar to me. I saw the person who was sitting on the bench near where I was about to sit, do the look and then the double look and then back to his book. And I was like, oh, that's sweet. He, he, he, fits the profile of a potential watch fan.

Maybe he'll say something nice or maybe he won't say anything at all. But my ego was like, that's cool. That's cool. The guy knows who I am. So sitting there, getting a little work done on a script, enjoyed my coffee, time to go. I start to pack up, and I can feel the movement. I can feel the sort of nervous hesitation. I can feel the approach.

And I'm like, this is good. This is going to really boost my Tuesday. And I look with my head up expectantly, expectantly. He's looking at me. He's looking a little bashful. And he says something. I'm like, I'm so sorry. What was that?

And he says, are you? And I start to nod. And he says, are you Nathan Fielder? God damn it. So, guys, this happens more than I would like to admit. I'd love to say this is on some level anti-Semitic. Don't think that's the case. I guess floppy-haired 40-something Jews are, you know, a rare sight out here in Hollywood.

But I bring this up first because it's ridiculous and happens. all the time to me now. But two, we haven't covered the rehearsal because as much as I do admire and respect my apparent doppelganger Nathan Fielder, I have a hard time with a comedy. I've watched two episodes of the rehearsal and it's not for me. It doesn't mean I'm saying it's good, not good. I'm not saying it's bad. I don't have a take. It is just something that I find extremely uncomfortable to watch. And the fact that it makes me so uncomfortable probably means it's worthwhile on some level, right? Like, I'm having a reaction.

Something is awake inside of me. I do not crave the second screen experience because I'm bored, but rather so I could hide behind Wordle or whatever. But I don't feel like that to take. So Chris might come on and argue with me and debate with me about it, but that's why we haven't covered it thus far, because honestly, it's a challenge for me. And maybe we could have my therapist on next week to discuss why that is.

But so that's why we see your messages. Chris sees your tweets. You know, I'm purely a Facebook guy, really big into meta. I like to lean all the way in. Shout to Cheryl Sandberg. But that's why we haven't covered it yet. Okay, but Nathan Fielders, the rehearsal, is streaming on HBO Max. HBO Max in the news again this week because for industry heads, not the industry heads,

we just serviced with a loving, loving deep dive into episode three of season two, but the industry heads who tune in just for streaming wars. and Bobwatch know that HBO Max was in the news because layoffs were confirmed, basically. Casey Blois, who is still head of programming over there, did a reorg, a bunch of people, unfortunately, lost their jobs. But it was a sign of what a lot of people had predicted was coming with David Sazlov taking over, discovery taking over, et cetera, et cetera. I can't really report anything here, but I can report or at least convey that anecdotally,

while a lot of the same people are behind the scenes making decisions creatively, a lot of those creative decisions are definitely being affected by the new corporate structure. They're making fewer shows. A few years ago, there was a lot of talk, and we did a bunch of podcasts about how John Stanky and AT&T, when they took over HBO were going to supersize it to compete with Netflix, and then we're going to start greenlighting more shows and more content. And when HBO Max opened with its own programming team, you know, they were almost competing with each other to put new shows on

the air and give green lights. That is no longer the case. I think the windows for what they are making are shortening. Their pipeline is tightening again. And a lot of really interesting, compelling, original projects are just not getting made. And generally, when these projects come from their in-house studio, Warner Brothers, and are sold or set up to be HBO or HBO Max, and HBO or HBO Max says, sorry, we don't have room for it. We love this. We love you. But we have a competing project. Or we just don't have the budget for it, that means that project's dead. And that's a bummer. And I was thinking about that not to put League of Their Own and Shee Hulk attorney at law in any kind of negative light and not to repeat my monologue about the stride and need for original content that I gave when I was solo the other

day. But it is a very weird moment. It's a very weird moment. And obviously both of these shows are not original ideas, although they have originality in them. I'm having a hard time squaring the things that I'm hearing behind the scenes, the shows I'm seeing on the screen, and the third point of the triangle, the wild success of our favorite show of the year thus far, the bear, with everything that I'm hearing. Now, the bear was done at cost. You know, I think they've did it pretty cheaply and quickly. And it'd been a phenomenon for FX and for, I guess, FX on Hulu.

What is the lesson of that show behind the scenes at these cost-cutting streamers, not just HBO Max, but we know Netflix is doing the same thing? Are they paying attention? Are they going to try to replicate it? What lessons are being learned from it? I don't know. I guess we probably won't know for 12 to 18 months, but it's something to keep an eye on. Because what I'm seeing with these shows that I'm now finally, I promise, going to talk about is less an idea so flamingly hot and exciting that it has to be made. Like it has an incandescence to it. And, you know, there are many shows that I would describe that way, certainly over the last 10, 15 years, not just some of our favorites from this year like the bear. Barry or reservation dogs. But, you know, that's forget better call Saul. That was breaking bad, right? That was Vince Gilligan being like, I'm going to write whatever I want to write, having,

you know, worked for other people. This is what I want to do now. I'm seeing less of that on our screens and anecdotally behind the scenes. And I'm seeing more of smart, creative people, strapping on their work boots and being like, okay, you've given me a box. And I will do my best to fill this box with the things that motivate and interest me. And often the creator's success in filling that box is determined not necessarily by the creator's own spark or talent. Actually, certainly not, but more by what the box manufacturer will tolerate.

And so this is all a very unromantic way of talking about Abby Jacobson's A League of Their Own, which I shouldn't have buried the lead. I really like a lot. So for people who don't know, the show is an original, re-exploration, not a reboot really or a sequel, of the beloved now, and I can't even believe, this 30-year-old Penny Marshall film, a league of their own. And the premise is that during

World War II, when our boys were out fighting overseas, professional baseball teams were fielded of women to give people something to watch and cheer for. And, you know, obviously, attendant sexism and class issues were explored through that lens. Abby Jacobson, one half of Broad City, has taken this on and taken this idea and made an original show that is really noteworthy because it takes full advantage of the moment. Not necessarily full advantage of the medium, although it does do that. I mean, it's eight episodes that vary in length from 30 to 60 minutes. And so that's a lot more story than was in Penny Marshall's movie. But there's also a lot of other things that weren't in Penny Marshall's movie either, like a much

more nuanced and clear-eyed view of sexism as lived in the moment of the illicit nature of same-sex relationships, both then and honestly anytime throughout history and race as well. Because unlike the original movie, this A League of Their Own really, really prominently places an almost a co-lead with Abby Jacobson who plays a catcher from Idaho named Carson Shaw, a phenomenal actress, in my opinion, Shante Adams, who plays a character named Max Chapman, who is an ace pitcher. But for all the struggles that Carson and her all, and her predominantly white teammates receive and getting on the team, she has many more hurdles to climb. I say predominantly white because there's a character from Cuba, there's a character

from Mexican descent, but Max being a black woman in this era has considerably more hurdles to climb. So what's interesting about the show in some ways is what's interesting to Abby, I just like so much as a writer, as a performer. I just think she's awesome. It's just a person in the world, honestly. Great Instagram follow. It strikes me that she's less interested in history of the moment. The world around this team, the Rockford Peaches, is nodded at, referred to obliquely.

We certainly get a sense that there is a war. We know that Carson's husband is in the war. Some people, you know, it's a conversation about which men are actually still in America at this point. certainly meant a fighting age. But it doesn't really seem to motivate her in a large way. And so far, I wouldn't say baseball does either, which is probably fine. Although I got to say there is something in me that when you see baseball performed, I'm just kind of all in.

And I don't know whether that's the field of dreams, the natural, or just, you know, being a long-suffering baseball fan myself, like, I love seeing it. And I think that Jamie Babett, who directed the first two episodes and the whole production team did a really good job of the baseball. like they get the sound, the pop of the mitts. It's a nice sensory experience. But all of this is kind of to say the show is a really pleasant, it's a pleasant and thoughtful watch.

It's almost a victim of this moment where because it's an Amazon Prime series and it's a period piece and there's some names behind it and there's some interesting politics involved in it, that it carries with it almost necessity to be eventized. I mean, how else are you going to get noticed? in this crowded landscape, when in fact, its rhythms are a little moral fashion. It's very charming.

It's very pleasant to watch. The stakes of the second episode, well, very large in the sense of young women existing in the world that hates disrespects and fears them. The specific stakes for Max, the character I'm referring to, played by Shantay Adams, and her best friend Clance, who's played by a British actress who I've never encountered before,

who I think is absolutely incredible. Bemisola Ikumalo. She is unreal. She's so good. I think she was just announced as a member of the cast of the Roadhouse reboot. So I feel like that's probably a good thing for her. Anyway, their stakes in the second episode is they have to locate, purchase, and secure a bucket of crabs for a crab boil. Now, admittedly, I think finding fresh shellfish in 1940s, Illinois would present anyone with a challenge. So I don't begrudge than that. But, you know, it is relatively small bore up to this point. What does seem to motivate Abby, and I don't want to speak for her. I would love it if she would come on the podcast again, really is the idea of young women having dreams and dreams being deferred.

And also, you know, there's a beautiful and burgeoning relationship between her character, Carson Shaw, who I mentioned is married to a soldier serving overseas. And the great Darcy Cardin, who you know from The Good Place in Barry, who plays Greta, a kind of glamorous and confusing. fellow member of the Rockford Peaches. That romance really motivates the story as well. I'm in. I really like the show, but I can't help but think that this is, I can't decide, basically.

I've seen two episodes, so it's not up to me to decide yet. But Abby is so clearly impassioned by certain things, and I guess I'm wondering two episodes in if this is the best possible box for it, or if this is just one box that she's going to fill now and then continue to do more work in the future. It doesn't have to be an existence.

question. It's just something that I guess I'm curious about. I will also say that the other thing that she doesn't seem to have total fidelity to is period. Well, the costumes are great and cars and everything. The characters definitely speak as if they were written in 2022, which also is fine. I feel like period pieces written in the 70s, people probably spoke like they spoke in the 70s, but now the 70s are a period piece too. But I feel, though I'm not an American historian, I do feel secure saying that people probably didn't say things like one billion percent or literally one billion percent. I don't think they said things like that then. But it doesn't matter.

It's a fun exploration of a time and a moment. And Nick Offerman is in it playing this show's version of the Tom Hanks role, brilliant casting. And there's a surprise of that character in the second episode that I did not see coming and ran against some of my skepticism. So I took that as a really, really good sign. and one that makes me interested in watching the rest of the series. So, League of Their Own, Amazon Prime's streaming now. Then, guys, we got to talk about She-Hulk Attorney at Law. And I don't know, guys.

They've made one episode. One episode is up. Disney and Marvel do not provide screeners. I know they do to some people. They do not, to me. Maybe they definitely won't after I talk about this show. Now, I want to speak gently and carefully about it, because what I feel about the show and the negativity that I carry about the show

is in no way directed at the very talented people who made the show or who are starring in the show. Nobody sets out to make something bad. Nobody sets out to make something that just seems not confusing but confused. Those things happen to projects. And the feeling I got from watching this first episode is that, oh gosh, people tried really hard. and something happened to this. And what happened to it is what Marvel is in 2022. And it's a bummer.

It's a bummer. I feel like if you off the record went up to a lot of people involved in the show and just asked them, said, you know, you've got the infinity gauntlet. You could snap your fingers and they could do a re-they could get another shot at it, another bite at the apple, a redo. Or maybe just memory-hole it, would they do it? I kind of feel like they would. That's again, I'm not trying to repeat it.

people's minds. I'm not trying to put down people's work. But the press rollout for the show has been really interesting. And maybe Chris and I will talk about it a little bit more when he gets back. But Jessica Gao, who is a writer on Rick and Morty and other programs, who created this and his show running it and wrote it has been pretty loose in the interviews in a way that I really appreciate. And it makes me think very highly of her quite honestly. And I wonder what Kevin Feige and the rest of Marvel think about it. Because, you know, she's been very honest being like, you know, we wanted to do a legal show and then we got the room together and we realized we're not very good at writing a legal show so we didn't do that oh okay i kind of respect that but she's also saying things like the

version of she hulk a really funny surprisingly great character in comics that she fell in love with it's the same version that i fell in love with and i think a lot of other people did which was this run on the character um written and drawn by a now kind of controversial i guess but but generally pretty highly regarded certainly in his peak uh comic creator named john Bern in which She-Hulk was, it was a legal comedy. Yes, she was also a Hulk, but it was a lighthearted comedy that broke the fourth wall. She talked to the reader. And that was kind of, I don't know if it was unheard of, but it was unexpected at a time when comic

books were, this is the late 80s and the early 90s when comic books were getting serious. That was the era of Sandman, which I talked about last week, but also the era of Bam, Pow, comics. They're not just for kids anymore, headlines that used to dominate. Anyway, the fourth wall breaking is in the show, like twice, and then it's kind of not there. And she talks about a lot of other things that aren't there either. And most glaringly, what she talks about is how the pilot isn't the pilot that they wrote and shot. The pilot is a piece of the pilot that they wrote and shot, and then a huge, huge chunk of the finale that they surgically drop.

into the pilot and you can feel it. And the reason why they did it is kind of a bummer. The reason why they did it is because it was determined. And again, she doesn't say who determined this. So we can actually just say Marvel collectively, that the audience wasn't ready to accept the show that they had all agreed to make, which is that Tatiana Maslani,

one of our great actors, certainly TV performers of the decade, to show that she, I'm sure, signed up to be in, about a young woman who is a really good lawyer and then also happens to be a Hulk that the audience wouldn't accept it. They wouldn't understand it. They needed, drum roll please, an origin story. And so what we get is the beginning

of the legal comedy they want to make. And then she turns to the camera and says, I know that you're going to watch a legal comedy, but I guess we should tell you about what happened. And then there's this 20-minute thing with Mark Ruffalo and there's a car crash with a spaceship. and some blood gets on her,

and then they're in Mexico, getting drunk and fighting and wistfully reminiscing about Tony Stark. And guys, what? What is it? It's not a show, really. It's just some content stitched together to make people feel better

about committing to something that we don't even know what it is yet. To me, it's the worst of all possible solutions because they didn't have the confidence to give us something new, witch to its enormous credit, credit that only grows greater, honestly, in hindsight.

Wanda Vision did do. Wanda Vision didn't start with a black and white sitcom. Have Agatha pause the screen, wink, and remind us what Vision and Scarlet Witch were up to or where they came from. It committed to the bit.

And I'm not sure what it is about this project or where we are in comic book storytelling that made them squirrely or nervous. They're making so much content. They're making so much TV. They can't white-knuckle control everything like this anymore. They're going to have to let some shows be not just what they want to be, but what their creators clearly intended them to be.

They can't all just be retroactively whittled down and reshaped and retconned into being widgets, of the larger phase five colossus, it's not going to work. It's not just, we're past seeing the seams, guys. We're hearing the snapping tendons. Like, it's an awkward, awkward thing. And what's heartbreaking to me about it isn't just that I'm super into the, let's just go for it, comic book absurdity of a sitcom on Disney Blues called She Hulk Attorney at Law.

Tatiana Moslani can do this. You know, you didn't cast her just to maybe be in thunderbolts in four years. That's not why she's here. She has better things to do if that's why she's here. Come on. There's a moment here in that Mexico sequence when she delivers to, and I want to say Mark Ruffalo, but I assume it's just a couple of ping pong balls in Atlanta. What I imagine was the core of Jessica Gow's pitch here, which is that you, Bruce Banner,

you don't need to tell me a young professional woman about what it's like to control your anger and fear. I live like that every day, as do all women in the world. That's a universal idea. That's a great idea. That is an engine of an idea that can fuel any sort of TV show, whether it has gamma rays in it or not. And the fact that it's there, it almost felt like a proof-of-life video or like a Morse code ping in the bottom of the ocean. There's life here, you know. There's heart here.

There are a lot of talented people involved. Ginger Gonzaga is in this, in a small part, at least maybe more to come. Renee, Elise Goldsbury, Tim Roth is around the corner. And of course, Benedict Wong and Charlie Cox. By the way, I would love to just get Benedict Wong's travel records from the last year. Did he just, did they buy him an open-ended ticket to Atlanta and just run him through what we used to call at ESPN, the car wash, where like an athlete would show up in Bristol and then he or she would film like 10 TV shows and podcasts over the course of an afternoon? Is that what he did?

Because I'm always happy to see him, but it's incredible the way the usage rate on this guy. No, there's a spark here, you know? And the fact that this first episode had to be this is a bummer to me. Now, I only saw one. The fact that they got this out of the way with the dodgy CGI and the Hulk versus Hulk fight that I guess someone somewhere thought that people wanted is the fact that's out of the way a good thing? Okay.

I'm going to say, yeah, it's a good thing. thing. I'm going to be optimistic here because I would rather see the comedy that this wants to be, even if it falls flat on its face, than see this fearful backtracking mishmash of I'm not even sure what anymore. You know, and I know, listen, this is the raw and cut. Usually Chris is here to make better jokes than I can do right now. And I know there's an element of our listenership that's just like, look, this is what it is now. but I wish it wasn't. I wish it wasn't. I like comic books.

I like She-Hulk. I like Wanda Vision and Loki. I like Marvel movies. And I like anything that is allowed to be the best version of itself. And, you know, I think for whatever flaws it has, a league of their own is doing that. Do I wish it was an original story that Abby Jacobson could write about a young woman living her dream and living her truth? and with a great ensemble cast that only someone of her cal were could attract.

Yeah, I do. I wish it was something else, quite frankly. But it's not. This is the world we live in. And so I'm pretty happy with what it is because at least it is living its truth. Free She-Hulk. That's what we're ending on.

So that's my rant for today. Programming note, I believe maybe our dogged producer, Kai McMahon, who is definitely second screening while I monologue can remind me. I think Chris is going to be back for at least one show next week. I think we are because we are both traveling taking off next Thursday.

So there will be only one new episode of the watch. Next week, guys, it's House the Dragon Time. Have Chris and I already seen it? Listeners, you're going to have to tune in next week to find out. Such a pleasure talking to you about how people don't recognize me anymore. They just think I'm Nathan Fielder. What a headline. What a headline.

Thanks to Kaya for putting up with me and for producing. Thanks to Chris for having a killer vacation. and coming back, tanned, rested and ready so we can hit the ground running and get back to Westeros where we belong. Have a great weekend, everybody. Have a great, great weekend, Christine Vranski.