The Watch - The Magic of ‘Top Chef’ Over the Years; Plus, HBO’s ‘Run’ | The Watch

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

Chris and Andy go deep on their love for ‘Top Chef’ (6:31) and talk about why you form unique relationships with the contestants on the show (20:35). And even though ‘Run,’ starring Merritt Wever and Domhnall Gleeson, has all the makings of a good show, there’s something slightly off about it (36:00). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen. Their relief team is working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals in communities that need support. They're now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and L.A. And they're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh, hot meals to hospitals and clinics fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants in business as well. You can directly help the heroes and hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us. And you can help your local restaurants stay alive. go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate, please.

We are trying to raise $250,000. And if you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants. Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

Hello, welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at therigger.com and joining me on the other line from the Last Chance Kitchen. It's Andy Greenwald. Wow. Do you think people know what you're talking about? Or they will soon? Top Chef's pretty popular.

Especially now. It's one of our national sports. It is. Yeah, according to fantasy. That was a good tweet. I like that. I don't know if I liked it in Twitter, but I thought that was a very perceptive thing to say. This is, guys, listeners, this is the one you put in the time capsule of this period.

when the premiere occasionally TV watching TV podcast pivoted to a full Twitter reaction IRL podcast. Yes. Remember that good tweet. I'm so proud. One of the things I wanted to talk about today, happy Monday. We're here.

It's still April. And I wanted to talk a little bit about how we're finding the things that we like nowadays because part of the thing that's absent, obviously, is getting to see people hanging out of, bars being like, what are you watching? Obviously, like, you and I spent some social time on Zoom this weekend. It was lovely. We did. I loved that you went from wine to beer. That was incredible. That was an underrated note. So this is what we're doing now. So we had a later Zoom call with our spouses, but it wasn't, the Zoom call is the thing I wanted to talk about because I was like,

let's just connect. Let's just FaceTime it. Like, let's just be normals. I don't like the aspect ratio. Chris insisted. Corporate Chris over here insisted on utilizing his professional Zoom account in off hours. I'm not Kelly Loeffler. It's not like I have like Zoom stock and I want to keep pumping it up. Did you write off that call as a work expense? No comment. Did you bill for those hours? Here's what happened. And since I think people, you've lit this candle. So now we've got to let it burn. I, it was later at night. Yeah. I'm an older man, as are you.

And I was just sipping, you know, it's been very warm here. I was sipping a lovely, lovely rosé from the Santa Barbara AVA. And that's what I was just going to have a few little sips on that. And then what do I see in the correct aspect ratio? That's right. Your boy, young CR. Under the Roger Deacon's framing. And imagine Dune, but for.

Rot-Gut Pennsylvania beers, and Chris was drinking out of a, the classic green bottle. Yeah. One of the preeminent drinks of our, I'm not even kidding, our youth. Old Latrobe, baby. A rolling rock beer.

And no free ads, and no free ads either. This is not sponsored content. I would love it for it to be. The bottle was colder, truly colder than hard home. You know what I mean? That's right.

Throw it back to Thrones. It was frosted. It looked like the Knight King's beverage of choice. And it was so refreshing that mid-conversation, I exited the frame, put away the fay trappings of adulthood. All that contact skin out. Cracked a can of Pilsner. And it was still not what I was looking for. I wanted that cold bottle to remind me of college.

You got it. Every once in a while, you have. to have a beer where they should be paying you to drink it. You know what I mean? Like there's the $9.00 IPAs that the juice wolves drink. Then there's like the indie rock version of regular beer where you sort of feel like you have discerning taste, but essentially what you're drinking is like a Budweiser or a yingling or something.

And then you then you can dive low. You can buzz the tower a la Maverick and Top Gun. And just every once in a while, you got to drink that stuff that's just like maybe 35% Riverwater. I love it, though. That's like, I don't know if we, this is actually a good segue because we're going to talk about Top Chef today. I bet if we called this podcast, what are the good beers?

We would do, we would do rewatchables numbers. No, I would personally drag you down. I would be the growler of cinnamon apple stout tied to the ankle of this podcast because I hate fancy beer. Yeah. I can't stand it. And like our, our, I'm proud. I would just say our friend, our colleague,

the host of my favorite podcast that Dave Chang Show, Dave a few years ago wrote a piece I think in Gentleman's Quarterly Magazine being like... Was this like, you should drink Miller Light? Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, yes, yes. I like light Mexican and Japanese loggers. Like, that's all you need. Do you not go American when you drink... Oh, or American, yeah. I'm just saying like, give me a Takate or a Sapporo or a... Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like...

Slits or whatever. I feel like I sounded a little like Tom Cotton there. It's like, wait a second. You only drink Japanese beers. When it comes to beers, I do not let the Bavaria virus, as I'm calling Colshales. That's what I'm calling them. Do you think what Kaya thought, like, I get to engineer and produce the watch that this is what she thought was going to happen? I think Kaya is very insightful and smart.

And I think that she was like... She's keeping her options open. I think she was like, here's two 42-year-old dudes who have been... feasting on their friendship for 24 years, I can see where this is going to go. Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef because... I'm so excited. You've got alcohol on my brain and what goes better than with

booze than food. We're going to do some check-ins on other shows, too. Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about Run. And then just to sketch out the rest of the week for you guys, we will do... We're going to talk a lot about normal people and romantic relationships on Thursday. And then we're also joined by Lenny Abramson,

who directed the first six episodes of normal people. It's 12 episodes. Here's my quick review of normal people and of 2020 on television. There's 0-000, Better Call Saul and Normal People, and then there's everything else. Okay. That's a strong, strong review. And people who listen to this pod may have thought we were joking when we talked about being early adopters of the Rooneyverse.

Not the case. No, my Rooney credentials go all the way back to social network with Rooney Mera. You were on the Rooney train early. Little did you know that it was going to take a detour to Ireland. I'm very excited about that show. Loved reading the book. Really loved Sally Rooney as a writer. We will talk about that later in the week.

But for now, let me set a certain, let me set a table. Let me set a judge's table, if you will. The chef's table, yeah. People know this. I love Top Chef. I have watched every single episode of this show since it began, 17 seasons worth. I've even watched both seasons of Top Chef Jr., a show that I adored and miss.

Can I tell you one thing really quickly? If you spoil Louisville, if you spoil Kentucky for me while we're doing this podcast, I'm going to come over, I'm going to run my car into your house. Oh my God, I would... That sounds like a Smith song for the quarantine era. I would love that.

You just made me want to do it because then I would at least, in my dying breath, experience human contact and friendship again. I think people know this, that despite, being co-host of a marginally successful beer podcast for eight years now, I've never been able to talk about one of my favorite shows on my home turf because it's been a one-half situation.

So I've had to farm out, not farm to table, but farm out these takes to-you farm yourself out. Yeah. House of Carbs. Yeah. To the D. Chang Show, whatever. Now, the bill has come due. And the most amazing thing happened. And I think we alluded to it a couple weeks ago.

I just think this is unprecedented what you've done here. I'm thrilled. Thank you. And I'm shocked and I'm grateful for it. I feel like Uma Thurman and Kill Bill just like punched myself out of the coffin. And I'm back. And I'm back and I'm ready to talk about multiple timelines of Top Chef. But in a really like dude who only learns world history through YouTube kind of way,

where I am very deeply in the show, like in the trenches with it. But, like, I've watched season six Vegas. I've watched season 14, Charleston, I believe. 15 Denver. And I am up to date on the current season. And I have just started Kentucky. Which is just like, so I'm, I'm really like more recent. And I have to say, we talked a little bit about this in our social life, actually.

But I am way more into the more recent seasons, even though I know that's sacrilegious probably for people who have been watching for a long time, that I find the cooking and the people much more interesting in these more recent seasons than the stuff I've seen of the single digit season so far. Well, I want to talk about that specifically in our conversation also about the current season, but I mean, you are Desmond from Lost

in the Top Chef First right now, because you are unstuck in time. You are experiencing multiple timelines. It's amazing. Also, you just rattled off five seasons of TV that you've watched. All the seasons are available on Hulu aside from the new one.

So my first question for you, and maybe this is a way to begin the conversation for people who are listening who haven't partaken, or maybe... Yeah, because they're definitely still here. Steped away. Yeah, we don't even have a captive audience in the cars anymore. There's no traffic.

So I don't know, you really like listening to us if you're still listening. As a person in the world who enjoys food and restaurants, but it has also enjoyed competitive television shows other than this one. What is the appeal to you? What has clicked into place

that maybe you didn't expect or that you didn't know that has caused you to take to the show to the degree that you have later in its life? Yeah, I think we chatted about this a little bit, but it feels more like sports to me than it does reality television. Because I feel like,

while there are some big disappointments and some shocks and there are some moments where I'm like, well, this person really seemed like either a really decent human being or like quite a talented chef, for the most part, it's like the NBA where like the best player winds up winning at the end. And I know that there have been some really controversial seasons where that wasn't the case.

But for the most part, it's like when I was watching season six, even though I had some issues with the season itself, it was pretty obvious that, spoiler, I guess, for season six, Brian Michael and Kevin were just elite chefs. We're just incredible chefs. And Jen was too. And you kind of always sort of saw that. coming. So it feels a little bit more like Survivor to me than it does like other Bravo shows

where it's more about the drama. This seems more like how good are these people at what they're doing? That's the thing that I wanted to distinguish because it seems to me, and again, I am in the reverse, I'm the reverse you when it comes to Survivor. I've never seen an episode. But what I hear is the appeal is the people who are good at playing the game. Right? And so it's the gamesmanship and the trickery and the scheming that makes people elite. And, And the thing that I've always loved about Top Chef is that it's really not about that. Like for the first few weeks, you know, sometimes people can sneak ahead if they're better oyster shuckers or if they knew that they would be better served if they were front of house

and restaurant wars or whatever. But there's ultimately no place to hide. You can't really just be good at a game because at the end of it, every challenge, you just have to cook better than everyone else in increasingly difficult or challenging circumstances and not increasingly manufactured or preposterous situations. It's not can you prepare this four-course meal while on a rowboat in a wave pool. It's you have a day to do it. And you're going to be judged by the best show.

Yeah. And when they do bring a wrinkle and it's like for your mom. You know, it's something that has like it seems to have a little bit more of an emotional connection or it does have some semblance of a real-world application. That being said, I did want to ask you this question because this is one thing that I think you're uniquely suited to answer is somebody who's been watching the show for such a long time. and who has like a really good awareness of of restaurant culture in general. To what extent is there a, can you be a good chef and be bad on top chef? Yes. It's a great question. And I think definitely yes. Not everyone is suited to that kind of competition. I think there's a couple factors at play. One is, and this is something that comes into play actually in different ways in almost all food TV.

It's something that Bourdain talked a lot about. It's something that Chang talks a lot about. It's the difference between a cook and a chef, right? And people have a sliding scale of definitions for it. But I think to be a decent, if not exceptional cook, you have to be, you have to have a very specific set of skills. Shouts to Liam Neeson. And you have to be able to deploy them at an exponential rate, right? You have to be able to chop and prep things, but then do it to scale.

like to just be able to just reproduce, reproduce. It's not the glamorous artistic part of it. You just got to deliver. And those are the people who are the lifeblood and backbone of our restaurant industry and who are, of course, very much in trouble at this moment in our world history. And then there's maybe the chef part of it. And this might be kind of a grandiose way of phrasing it. But I think I'm going to put in the chef basket all of the other pieces,

the sort of the artistry, the innovation, the creativity, the X factor in a competition that might separate you. And, you know, there are people, specifically I always point to Richard Blaze, who's a contestant, who I don't know if you've encountered, because I don't think you've watched his seasons. I think he's before season six, yeah. He is before season six and then also afterwards in the first All-Star season. And he was someone who was just, like, uniquely made for this show because he was a totally inhuman hybrid of, yeah, he could just bang out apps or whatever. But also, he's kind of a mad genius. and when they said, when they did have that element of the show where it's like you can only,

you have to use jelly beans in your whatever, he comes up with a brilliant way to do it and just constantly can produce. So he was a very rare example of it. Otherwise, like, yeah, I think there are excellent, excellent cooks who have faltered well before the finish line because they didn't have that extra whatever, whether it was the competitive spirit or just the quick, quick, quick thinking. You know, there's an example I would love to use from the season you're currently watching that I won't. Thanks. But just to say that there's an example of a cook or a contestant who on paper and off of it has everything. And then when it came down to executing, which is what it comes down to, ultimately on that show, wasn't able to do it.

But all of this we're talking about now, this speaks to why I continue to just ride for the show, why I continue to love it, and why I think it was uniquely suited to run this long and also improve, which is what I want to talk about with you as it's improved, which is that ultimately. Ultimately, it has been very true to a division of cooking excellence above all else, above gimmicks, above, you know, above drama. And it's why I always preferred it to, you know, like, chopped on Food Network or the Gordon Ramsey shows. And the example I've used before is, like, it's the same reason I like watching pro sports, not college sports, because I just want to see the best. Sure.

At the best of their ability. And I think that's pretty, it's pretty remarkable. And the fact that the show is continuing to attract new fans in season 17, speaks to both the enduring principles that it's based on, but also that maybe, and we can talk about it now, like maybe it has improved. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is something to be said for Top Chef being something of a reflection of society, hopefully. And obviously, there have been people who have been on Top Chef, who have gotten into some trouble during the Me Too era, obviously. And there have been, I think that the show now, the cast that I've seen in the last

couple of seasons, it's certainly not like 100% diverse and, you know, and it's not, it's not like there isn't like an old boy network and like a certain way of doing things and there isn't of reliance maybe on like old school French techniques. Like those things are still pretty pre-prelevant. But I do think that it's interesting to watch season six. So a chef that's on this current season of Top Chef in LA, Kevin, was on season six in Vegas. me if I'm wrong, right? Yeah, Kevin and Jen Carroll are both returning from that season. And Kevin in season six is sort of, he gets very far into the season. He gets to the finals, but he is somewhat mocked by other contestants for making simple comfort food. Kevin's from

Atlanta, and he basically does a refined version of Southern comfort cooking. And I think at one point, Michael Voltaggio says, Kevin makes the kind of food that I make on my off day. And it's kind of interesting to see Kevin in this season being more of the the way everybody cooks. You know, everybody kind of cooks where they're from. Everybody tries to like bring elements of their family or their local, their region and infuse that into their culinary training and combine basically like really nice, good technique with soul, you know, with with their story. And I think, sometimes, you know, we can get a little bit tired of hearing like it's all about storytelling.

It's really, what's the story this thing is telling? What's the story this bottle of tide is telling me? But ultimately, like, that is why anybody wants to do anything, is to tell something, to say something about the world. And I don't know, in the last couple of seasons, but specifically this season in L.A., it's been a really interesting to see people like Brian and Jen and Kevin coming back, competing with people like Gregory and Eric and Melissa, and just that collision of tastes and stories. It's just a fascinating watch every week. I loved having this conversation with you the other night and again now because it's the kind of thing, if you're just kind of immersed in it and watching the show and kind of

as generally obsessed with food and food culture as I am, like you kind of don't notice the shifting tides. And then when you started bringing it up, I was, you're totally right. It is a completely different show reflecting a completely different landscape in almost entirely positive ways. The phrase identity politics is kind of a heavy one for people, but I think identity politics has been one of the best thing ever to happen to the restaurant business and to cooking. Because years ago, when I first started talking about Top Chef for writing about it, I would always point to what I thought to be the single best episode of the show produced. And I haven't rewatched it. I'd be curious if you want to check it out, even out of context.

It was in the first All-Star season. And there were, I think, five people left or six people left. And it was not the most diverse group. There were some women represented, but mostly a lot of of the old boy network that you're talking about. And the challenge was very simple. It was basically like cook the meal of your history, cook the most personal thing. It was an Ellis Island challenge. Yeah. And it was so moving and so direct. And it made you understand who these people were as people, who they were as cooks, and what food could mean to the people that you often never see behind the kitchen door. It was really a radical hour. to experience, that has become every episode in a way that is worth celebrating, you know,

that we that we understand the whole journey of these people. And you mentioned Gregory, who's a favorite from a few years ago in his back and is crushing it in the competition, probably running neck and neck with Melissa, if not Melissa and Kevin, running away with his current season, which has been really surprised me with how excellent the season has been. When we first met him, you know, he was a chef in Portland, skills were outrageous, cooked mostly through an Asian prism, which is the food that moved him

and that he had studied the techniques. And then this season, since he's been back, he's been cooking very, he's been cooking food from an Asian perspective as well, but increasingly he's cooking from a Haitian perspective. And there was the challenge that he won recently with his mother, was this, like, the family members or loved ones came and assisted.

And he won the challenge by making his version of picklies, like a sort of spicy vegetable pickle that is on tabletops all over Haiti. And I realize even as I say this, if you're not watching the show, this could sort of sound gimmicky and almost like, oh, he's got an advantage because he's got this thing that will dazzle the judges or appeal to their heartstrings or whatever. But what's happening is that he's executing something that is true and lived in for him on the high level that, you know, that a Daniel Ballude would expect something to be executed and what the whole show is judged by in previous seasons. And it's quietly radical and it goes full circle to what you said, which is it's kind of a weird microcosm for the way. for the best things in this country, honestly, for the way we would hope culture and society

to move forward with a vision towards listening and empathy and inclusivity. And then underneath all that, joy, because the stuff that they're making, they're making it with, you know, with, it's a very happy season so far. Yeah, but it's still a good TV. I mean, you were talking about the way in which these people are asked to kind of constantly

be weaving their own personal narratives into their cooking. It's interesting sometimes to see people resist that, you know, both on season six, I felt like Michael Vultagio was often, you know, kind of like, I, you know what? Like, I'm just the best chef. You know what I mean? I don't have to cook the thing that makes me think of my mom or if I do, it's going to be like, I didn't like broccoli.

Here's the most amazing inverted broccoli dish. And even to some extent, I thought Brooke was kind of like, I'm just the best. Do I have to do like what my mom made for me? You know? Yes. There are moments where there are moments of tension. It's all I'm trying to say. And there are moments of drama, but they aren't drama like, this person stole this

person's key ingredient and fuck them. That happens every once in a while, but for the most part, there aren't like, it's not gamesmanship, it's more like, who are you trying to present yourself as? And it's really, it's really interesting to watch. Totally. But what's interesting about what you're saying and worth interrogating to a degree that I don't think I have, I was talking about Richard Blaze being like made in the lab to be on the show. Brooke is like that too, Brooke Williamson, who was another returning contestant who, can we spoil this? I mean, I know, It's spoiled within South Carolina, and she is a winner. And she deserves to be.

But she's also like one of these Swiss Army knife contestants who just is a grinder and has the skills and the creativity and gets it done. I mean, no disrespect when I say, I don't know if I would drive out of my way to eat at Brooks Restaurant or to eat at a Richard Blaze concept because he mostly does like that kind of stuff now. It's a different skill set. And it's interesting now thinking about it this way, which can. camp you'd put certain contestants into? Are there people who are there chameleons, Swiss Army Knife Chameleans, who can cook anything and dazzle you with what they have? Or are you more interested in the entire narrative of the meal and of the chef's identity? Yeah. You know, like I don't know anything about half of what Eric, who was a contestant on a previous season and is

back on this season cooks, because he's cooking from a very, very specific African point of view that I am woefully uneducated about. I would drive out of my way to learn about it. Yeah. I mean, and on the last week's episode, I thought, I think it was last week's episode,

Brian Voltajia was like, dude, do you, let's go. They were paired up together. They had a challenge at the, I think at the LA Phil. Yeah,

at the Disney Concert Hall. And Brian's, like Eric tells Brian that he wants to do this special, uh, I think it's a Senegalese lacquer that they're going to put on a pro team. And Brian's like, let's go, man. I want to learn about it.

it. That was maybe the turning point for, certainly for Top Chef, and maybe we could use it to, if I was still in the think piece business, that's what I'd base it around. Because last season, the one you're watching now, this is not a spoiler to say, I don't think that when Brian Voltajio appears as a judge in the season, they allude to the fact that he and Eric know each other, that Eric had worked for Brian in the past and Eric considered Brian to be kind of a mentor. So now they're on a even playing field competing against each other as contestants. And they have a joint challenge. And cooking historically is a very, very hierarchical regimented business, the kitchen brigade, right? Yeah, you're supposed to say yes, chef. Yes, right. And in this moment, Eric would of course be deferring to

the master, basically. And, you know, because the world has gone topsy-turvy in some actually interesting ways, Eric is like, it was a tacit understanding where Brian was like, my skill set is maybe unmatched. pound for pound, skill for skill, probably the best person in this competition. But because this show is what it is, and because you are who you are, I'm going to sublimate my technical skills to your cultural and creative vision,

which was really interesting. And then ultimately, though, you know, the winning dish, we don't need to spoil it, wasn't necessarily someone's secret grandma recipe. Right. It was something, it was a humble ingredient. It was cabbage.

It was the best execution of something. Yeah. Elevated to such an outrageous. degree. You know, I think one of the reasons why I think that, you and I shared this with each other, and we could put it up on our Twitter when we put the episode out. But this is going to be a very far-fetched transition to run, I promise. But, you know, over the years, I've had friends who have been, I watch reality TV and a little bit of scripted. And then I have friends

who are almost 99 to 100% scripted and don't really watch much reality television. I was definitely part of the latter group. And I still am. I think probably I watch maybe like three reality shows a year, four or five. And I'll go on runs when I'm like on a plane or something back when we used to fly and I'll just watch like a marathon of Vanderpump. And I like it. But it's not something I like DVR and set out time to watch. But it's interesting to watch Top Chef and feel just be so in the moment with these, for lack of a better term, characters and become, especially if you watch these people over the course of several seasons. I am so in tune with the last 10 years of Jen Carroll's life now. Me too. And who she was when she's on Vegas and who she's been in

later seasons and her facial expressions and her reactions and her reactions to certain tense situations. And you just feel like there is only one of her. And it actually takes me a second sometimes to then adjust back to watching scripted shows when I, feel like the characters are anything other than like blazingly obviously individual unique. You know what I mean? Like I was thinking about this with Run because I think part of maybe even the way they're choosing to do Run, and we can keep talking about Top Chef, but I just want to say, there is a little bit of like a tinge of, it's a little generic.

Like it's a man and a woman. And yes, they have specific background stories and those things get parceled out. but they could be anyone. It could be any couple. And it's really strange, actually, to watch something like Top Chef right back to back with Run because you have to change your brain back to archetypes rather than characters.

Well, I'll say that I think, and I do want to talk about Run too, but I'll say I think what you're speaking to is missing something that is integral to our enjoyment of TV, which is growing with characters. over time. Yes. And settling in with them.

And as TV has shifted to a, you know, basically like movies, like an opening weekend mentality, whatever's next, whatever's new, time to start something new. And also an eventized limited thing where shows are, you know, I'm guilty too, anthology limited. This is the story of these characters. And then on to the next. One of the things that we miss most is that central relationship that we built with people like Sam Malone or Peggy Olson over time.

Where they were part of, or whatever. They were part of our lives and we watched them. I was even getting a little bit, I was not getting emotional or anything, but I was like reading, to be completely honest, did not watch the finale of Homeland, but that's a show that you and I spent quite a bit of time talking about

and reading the kind of the post-game interviews with Alex Gonsa or with actors or producers on the show. and also reading some of like a couple of the recaps and even seeing in our Facebook page at the conversation that some of the people who stuck with the show are having. I was like Jesus Christ, you know? Like I spent like four years like watching Saul and Carrie.

You know, like I even just residually hearing about it, I was like, oh yeah, Saul and Carrie like immediately like remembering things that I had forgotten, plotlines that I had forgotten in a way that you don't get as much if you're just always in and out in eight episodes or nine episodes with people. And you're right. And so that is present, especially in these all-star seasons of a reality show, where we have spent time with these people. We know their ups and downs. Their highs and their lows, what they've wanted, what they've achieved, what they maybe they haven't, even if it's unspoken. And there's an easy familiarity among themselves, too, which is very, very appealing. And you mentioned it. It was the intro you gave me, but this last chance kitchen, which is the web-only thing. that is sort of the after-show. It's almost an after-show, but it's like a shadow competition. I used to make a joke. It's like... It's so fucking good. It's like Eurydice in the underworld. Like one person gets to come crawling back to life,

and you can watch it and engage with it or not. I highly recommend engaging with it because to see Tom and these people, especially the eliminated contestants who are very relaxed about it, they've all done this before and they don't take it too seriously. Because ultimately, they're cooking a steak and which sauce is better. But they've all done this with each other, and they're ribbing Tom, and Tom knows it's a little bit silly. And there's something that is very comforting and appealing about that, honestly. And it's that same sink into your couch feeling that we used to look to scripted shows for. The cool thing about this past week's one, and I won't, we're not giving away who is in it or what happens.

But it is, I thought it was the best depiction of how physically demanding this show is. Oh, my God, yeah. Because they essentially go from the elimination challenge of the Top Chef episode, into a double episode of Last Chance Kitchen so that they are cooking essentially for an entire day. I don't even know how long. It's a third challenge in one day. Yes. And there are points where the people in Last Chance Kitchen are almost like, I don't know if I can do.

Like, I'm too zonked to do this, you know? Yeah, that felt almost unfair to watch it, but it was pretty amazing. I want it. We would be remiss if we didn't mention this because I know that it's something that you and I were both really struck by is if people are interested. in the state of restaurants in this country right now. Obviously, we've been talking about World Central Kitchen, and that's a really, really great charity to donate to if you have time

because they are also working in conjunction with local restaurants to try and keep things afloat for that industry as well not only just getting meals to the people who need them on the front lines. But there was this really incredible article in The Times this weekend from Gabrielle Hamilton, who is a proprietor of a restaurant called Prune on the Lower East Side in New York. And it's essentially like a blow by blow of what these last couple of weeks have been. And talk about specificity. The level of detail and the accounting of what has been happening,

how she saw her sort of her receipts dipping before there was even like this kind of concrete knowledge that everything was going to shut down for real. and it gives you such an insight, even the people on these shows that we're watching, and obviously Chang has talked about this so articulate, in such an articulate way, but even on these shows that we're talking about, like Top Chef,

the margins are not that big, and they're really operating without an at most of these restaurants, and it was fascinating to pair that, no pun intended, to pair the Gabriel Hamilton article with Top Chef this season, because it's like they're, it's an article from the world that the top chef,

season will end in almost. Yeah. And it's also, regardless of the circumstance that forced the writing of it, she's a, is and has been a brilliant writer in addition to a brilliant cook and chef, but it's that cook and chef divide that I was speaking to, which is she is very unsentimental about how fucking hard this is. And yet also deeply sentimental in the most wonderful way about how every day she drags her uninsured self up the walk-in of her tiny and wonderful East Village restaurant and falls in love all over again once the cocktail shakers start going.

And she hears the sounds and the regulars come in and she's roasting a lamb shank. And it's just like it's so basic and beautiful and romantic. And I think those of us who are lucky enough to live on the outside of the kitchen and watch these shows and dine out, with friends and toast each other, whatever, we get to have the romance without paying much mind to the cost of it. And so it's essential reading, I think, in general.

I think it's the best thing that's been written full stop during this horrible time. And yeah, I tweeted it, you tweeted it. I hope people check it out. Let's talk briefly about RUM before we get out of here. Third episode aired on Sunday. And I think that was probably my favorite episode of the three that have aired so far. I had an interesting weird theory while I was watching it. It's basically the premise of the episode is that Billy and Ruby decide to take a day in Chicago

as they decide whether or not to keep going on with this journey, that this train journey to California that is supposed to be their kind of affair to remember. And even though it was a very cool episode and it had lots of great Chicago architecture and some great scenes, it's kind of like a... Is this show supposed to be set in England? Like, was this show, like, I realized that maybe it feels a little bit like this show is transposed from somewhere else onto this location or into this country. There, there's something about it that is just like three degrees off to me. And I don't know what it is.

Do you know what it is? I do. I know what it is. You raised your hand. I raise my hand. This is, as my daughter has been taught to do when she's been muted in a Zoom meeting with the rest of the first grade. I'll never mute you. maybe you should because here it comes.

I really, it took me a minute, three episodes in, I like the show. That's my, that's my review. I like it. I look forward to it. I enjoy watching it. I think what you are picking up on and what I think I've made peace with is that ultimately, this is a play. Vicki Jones, who created it and who wrote it, is a playwright.

Playwrights can write TV. They can write movies. I don't mean that as a dig. What I mean is there's a disconnect that I've had trouble kind of navigating, and I wonder if I'm the only one sounds like maybe I'm not, which is that the elevator pitch for this show, which is two people approaching middle age in their late 30s, text each other a single word,

and throw away their lives and meet up for this reckless romantic cross-country adventure. That is such a slam dunk. That is just one of those. Those don't come around very often, especially now when we make so many shows. It is you sell it, not in the room, you sell it in the elevator when you pitch it. Like that is phenomenal.

And it's so good you can and you probably have imagined a large number of alternative versions of it with different stars, different tones, different styles. And it's so, for lack of a better word, cinematic, a concept. The fact that what's being done with the concept is a two-hander of a stage play feels disappointing isn't the word.

Sometimes it feels confining. It's off. It's off. It feels a little bit off. Yeah. It feels a little bit off because these people have thrown off the shackles of their lives in such a steaksy, dramatic, thrilling way. And apparently all of America is at their fingertips. And yet we never ever leave the very tight gravitational pull of these two people, which is what,

interests Vicki Jones the most in which in and of itself is not a problem, because especially since one of those people is Merritt Weaver, I think that's great. But there's something about it that I was chafing against too, which is like, this could be midnight run. Yeah. This could be any, this could be so many things that we haven't seen before. Or it could be before sunrise. You know what I mean? It could actually be two people and you have two of the most charming people you can possibly put on a screen anyway. You could have two people kind of talking about where their lives have led them where they thought this was a good idea. And you could get some legitimate. admit will they or won't they chemistry going. And not, you don't even have to have it that way,

but I like the fact that they make these people liars and they make them self-interested and, and, um, horny and, and all that stuff. Like, I think that that stuff is good. I'm glad it's not like these two perfect people who are still playing within some sort of like unmarked hash marks of proper behavior. But it does feel like there's a couple of different things happening here. And, And yes, like, I thought the arrival of Archie Punjabi was really fun because it just adds a different gear to the show and it becomes a little bit more of the thriller that, you know, we're talking about. But it's strange to feel like you're not getting the dish that you could, given the ingredients you have. It's a tie it all together. We can.

It's a calibration thing. And to tie it even more tightly together, this might be the kind of. of calibration that could be figured out over time. Yeah. In a longer running show, this is not that show, because I think it's designed to be one run. I think it would be hard to do a second run. And what you're speaking to is kind of why I watch it and I enjoy it. And then my wife turns to me and says, do you like it?

And I say, yes. Because I really do like it. I don't not like it. But I think that the idea of people just abandoning their lives for this craziness is, it's so big. That's such a just a big and exciting and almost scary concept to tackle. And then when you drill down into it and the husband that she left, at least so far, feels so cookie cutter suburbia.

Like it doesn't, I'm having trouble understanding why she would ever have like that or found something there. Maybe that'll be unpacked. And then when you find out that Billy's finally honest in episode three and speaks his truth and his truth is fine. it's kind of medium understandable. It's something that we are, it makes sense. And it's, but it's not so shocking.

Yeah. From a fan perspective, or just purely an audience perspective, it didn't send me gasping or back on my heels. And maybe this is just where we're at. And this is something that we should recalibrate our brains to appreciate, which is that maybe the show isn't trying to knock us back on our heels. I think you might be right. But I, it's, do you hear you talk about it?

And if you just said to me, this is a show, it's strange that you would start with such a strong premise, such a high concept premise. And then three episodes later, I would feel like these people felt less real to me than they did in the log line. You know, they felt less real to me than they did in the trailer for the show. Whereas usually what you do is you start out with a show and it's like, well, it's about a Seattle hospital room. It's about a Seattle emergency room. And then 10 episodes in, you're like, Meredith, Graham. and Christina Yang are really interesting characters. You know, like you, you wind up transcending the concept of the show with the characters.

This seems to be characters that can't transcend the concept. And also, there's just something about the fact, like, there's something about Donald Gleason's sweatshirt in this show that really bothers me. I don't know why. It's because I own it. I have that sweatshirt. Everybody owns it. Everybody owns it.

All right. Okay. No, but I mean, like, it is a type of, it's like a type of sweatshirt. It's like, it's like even, it's like even, the music. that plays in the show is the kind of show that's like just in TV shows. It's the kind of music that's just in TV shows. The look of the show just feels like this is a show. And there's nothing. And maybe I'm just like too fucked up from zero zero and I haven't come down off of my my acid trip from that and like nothing seems real. But I obviously am fine watching like Middle Dish and Schwartz.

Like it's not like I need things to have like 80 minute tracking shots to Maguire to get through the day. Well, no, but you're speaking to something that I think we'll continue to talk about in track, which is the arms war of content and TV. There are still, even though it's very fortunate time to get stuff made, there are still very, very clear haves and have-nots. And, I mean, what a joy and what a luxury to make a TV show at any price for HBO. This show was filmed a little bit in New York, a little bit in Chicago, but primarily in Toronto, I think. You know, and that's just, that's kind of what we're dealing with. This is the world where if we want to have a lot of different TV shows and a lot of, you know, in choice, reality has to creep in a certain point, even though for the extreme halves, like a Westworld or a stranger things at this point, you know, there is no limit.

But for the majority of TV shows, it is how many ways can we make Vancouver, Toronto, Atlanta, or Albuquerque look different. Yeah. And as someone who's done it, it's hard. Yeah, for sure. They're advantages. But you are limited by that. and our eyes are having trouble, I think, adjusting to the enormous swings of what's possible and what's not. But all of that is to say, I still think that I'm still leading with, my lead review of this is not, it is evidently budget challenge because I don't feel like that's the case.

I do think that would interest Vicki Jones, and I respect following her interest in the show, is a much more narrow frame in all senses on these characters. I'm hooked enough to want to know how this all wraps up and where we get. we could wrap it up there. Greenwald, always a pleasure. As I said, Thursday's show will be, a lot of it will be about normal people. That comes out Wednesday. So we'll try and at least get like through the first two.

And we got to do, we got to address Mrs. America hive. Yeah, we'll hit Mrs. America on Thursday because I know that people are loving that. And I really like it too. I really like it too. I think we need to catch up to sort of talk about the scope of the show

because I think certainly the first two episodes, which I hope people have checked out, are incredible showcases for Cape Blanchet, whom obviously we adore, but also Rose Byrne, who I think is criminally underrated always, and is so excellent. God, I hate it when I start to say concern. Because I'm not concerned about the successful, you know, FX show, but the hyper-specificity of the episodes and the chapters and the performances, potentially being a little bit in conflict

with the show's approach, which is having, finding room for all of them and wrapping their arms around an era instead of just one performance and character. That would be a really interesting conversation. So we'll do that on Thursday. Should we have it another day? Yeah. Well, I'll get a 24-pack of Rolling Rock for that one. Let me check my schedule for the rest of today.

I'm free. I got a hard out. Greenwald, it was great to see you, man. Good to see you, too. Great job, Bernski. Great job, Christine Baranski at the Sondheim on 90, which somehow got bumped from our schedule today. You know, it's okay, because an image from that got made into the header image

for the watch Facebook group, so that's okay. Take care, guys. We toast you all.