The Watch - ‘The Mandalorian,’ ‘Mank,’ and an Interview With ‘A Teacher’ Creator Hannah Fidell

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

Chris and Andy break down the latest episode of ‘The Mandalorian’ and make some predictions for where the rest of the season will go (1:00). Plus, their review of ‘Mank’ (23:09) and an interview with ‘A Teacher’ creator Hannah Fidell (42:39). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Hannah Fidell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. I'm joining me on the other line. It's the Mank Dolorian. Andy Greenwald!

What a mashup. That's the mashup our culture deserves. That's the mashup this fucking podcast deserves. Welcome to The Watch. It's Monday. Good show for you today. Andy and I are talking about the latest episode of The Mandalorian. We'll talk a little bit about Mank,

the David Fincher's new film on Netflix, and then we have an interview with a teacher creator, Hannah Fidel. It's all coming up next on the watch. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling?

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trim Faya. Tap this ad to do. to learn more about Tramfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew,

the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. Greenwald, what's up? I'm just trying to game this out a little bit. So the Mandalorian is also about a grizzled past his prime hunter, who briefly was the best he was at what he did.

I don't think Mandelorian is past his prime? No, I'm talking about Boba. Oh, yeah, right, right. Boba is the Herman Mankowitz. Okay, let's not do this. Let's just talk about the content. We got a lot of content. So Baby Yoda would be Orson Wells, right?

or Marion Davies, I think. Yeah, that's true. No, Amy Sedaris has the Marion Davies thing going. Well. Yeah. And they wonder why they don't pay us the big bucks. Andy, it's lovely to talk to you. Here we are.

I thought we could get right into discussing stuff because we had a great culture weekend, a lot of stuff to watch. I want to let people know that later in the week, Andy and I will have Mickey Down and Conrad Kay from the creators of industry on Thursday. That's a fantastic conversation. And so what we're basically doing is doing industry week by week,

but obviously, you know, you can watch the entire season on HBO Max. We'll talk about it. Because I think five premieres tonight, Monday, and our interview was going to go up Thursday, and we talked about six. Yeah, we talked about Nutcracker, which is the sixth episode.

Yeah, so if you want to be up to date, I mean, I think that it was a pretty general conversation, but we allude to some things that happened later in the season. That show continues to climb my top 10 list. I'm trying to fix it. We also are going to be recording our best of the year TV pod with Sam SMAil this week. So that'll be coming up, I think, the following week.

So exciting times on the watch pod. Exciting times in the Star Wars universe. It's interesting. You know, like I felt like the last couple of episodes, you know, the Asoka episode, obviously we had Mallory come on and talk about what that character's arrival in the Mandalorian meant to her and meant to so many Star Wars fans. And I think obviously that that feeling was in some in some places. doubled by the appearance of Boba Fett in this most recent episode. I got to say, man,

off the top, I am having a hard time because I need to kind of think about some truths I held self-evident about Sarlac Pitts. Yeah. No, this is a great place to start. Great place to start. I did not think that was an ambiguous ending for him. Let's put it that way. I don't like to be the law and order of podcasts and rip our conversation straight from the headlines. But what I'm saying is Sarlac pits, kind of a hoax? Are they that bad? Right. They shut down all business on Tatooine because of these giant teeth-filled pits.

No outdoor dining. None at all, because you could build your patio over a Sarlac pit. Exactly. And you would be eaten. As it turns out, maybe it only eats old people, right? Because Boba Fett, who by the way, shouts at Tamira Morrison, love him as an actor. thrilled to see him. He doesn't look without underlying conditions. Do you know what I mean? That's all I'm saying. So, great, great place to start this. Getting us. That was the last time we had

seen him. You and me as guys who watch movies. You and me. You a guy who watches movies and me. The last time we had seen Boba Fett, he was going face first into a Sarlac Pit. Sarlac Pit. For anybody who hasn't seen Return of the Jedi is that hole in the ground with teeth. You want to avoid that. He seemed fully ingested by that Sarlac. And I know that we have seen both in the Mandalorian but in popular culture in general, it is possible for Jonah to get swallowed by the whale and get out on the other side. You know, like even in the Mandalorian.

Jepetto swims in, swims out. There are priors. But I just felt like the Sarac pit was, you know, nature's food disposal unit. You know, like it was a, it seemed like that was it for Boba. But here he is, he pops up a couple decades. Well, it's actually, the Mandalorian has said, how many years past Return of the Jedi? Like five or something? It's not that, it's not that long.

So he obviously got out, you know, and here he is. And I just want to just circle back to this point because generally I am anti-hole in the ground. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to fall in any hole. Yeah. But I feel like if you're going to choose a hole to fall in, fall on the one that doesn't have teeth. Like, this just seems simple. And it's really messing with my internal hierarchy of holes that that one seems totally fine.

I guess you lose your armor. Yeah. Right? So you come out a little bit naked and afraid, but otherwise fine. And not only De Boba Fett get ingested by a primordial hole in the ground, he seems to have popped out the other side. with a degree from Columbia in internal medicine? Yes. Well, also from the MIT robotics lab.

Because that was a gastro situation that, frankly, I admired. You know, I think a lot of us are suffering from reflux this time of year. I would say Fenwick is no longer allergic to onions. Exactly. Exactly. Fenwick can go have Situanez hot pot whenever she wants without suffering any ill effects the next day. There are a lot of questions. There are a lot of questions.

I want to say my own entry point here is I, this is, I guess I'm kind of fishing for likes here because I was workshopping a take that may have been the most me take ever to be taken on this podcast. Is this, I bet, can I guess it? Can we play a little bit of, uh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Is this going to be about childcare? No. Okay.

Because I thought maybe you were going to be mad that Mando was neglect. of a meditating baby Yoda up on the seeing stone there? No, I mean, I think I really related to that because if one's child ever does take a nap in the middle of the day, you would go to war with an invading army

to keep it from being interrupted. I really related to that. Sure. No, my point was more, I'm watching this episode, and I'm digging it, and I'm enjoying it, and there's Jedi's, and there's dark sabers, and there's boba fucking fat, right?

Mm-hmm. And part of me was like, are we sure we're done with standoff episodes, standalone episodes about fish people? What do you mean? Are we sure we're ready to move on from the show's kind of throwback, A-team-esque, wander into this planet, wander out of this planet? Like, what the genius of the show, as we've said week after week, is that it was built to do both, right? That it was built to engage with and expand on the larger serialized storytelling, but also the larger Star Wars, fandom. But one of the things that caused us to fall in like and then in love with it was that it was

just kind of poking around the margins. And then this season has really escalated into being a full-throated embrace of the fandom and to the point where this episode, chapter was chapter 13, is this what we're talking? Does the thing that I think the majority of Star Wars fans, certainly OG Star Wars fans our age, have been wanting since the Sarlock Pit. So I was going to do that take, but I abandoned it because I don't know if I really want more fish people, and I actually liked how cool it was. So two points. One, well, I'll start with this one.

I really admire the way this show, in its humble, 33-minute runtime way way just does the damn thing. Like, people like Mallory, as we learned last week, have been agitating for Assocato for years. When it was time to introduce her, they just, they were like, great, let's get the actress, who everyone wants to play her, who will do a great job, and we'll introduce her with a cool-ass scene in the forest.

That's it. We didn't overthink it. We didn't lay breadcrumb trails. We just did it. Similarly, we saw a little bit of Tamir Morrison in the season premiere, but otherwise he's just like, hi, yes, I'm here. I'm Boba Fett now, and I'm going to shoot my backpack rocket and then look back to the camera the way you nerds have been doing

with your action figures for 35 years. Right. They didn't overthink it, and it was kind of low-key and charming in its way. I like that. the bigger point that I'm still finding so fascinating, and I'm sure much smarter thinkers and writers than us, including probably Ben Lindberg, which I haven't read his piece about this episode yet, but people who've been writing about the show, it's really fascinating what's going on here. And we touched on it last week how, you know, I guess Dave Faloni, who's an EP on the show has been, his life's project has been like spackling the holes in this totally messy franchise and doing the parts that people want to see as opposed to what the movies were doing. And that's kind of what this was, too, writ large, right? Because the thing about Boba Fett, we all fell in love with him because he had cool-ass armor and was in the background.

He didn't do anything in the movies. He never did anything. He didn't even have a backstory that we knew of. It was expanded on a little bit in the prequels, but otherwise, blank slate. Now, all of a sudden he's just like, hi, I'm Boba. I have a really strong moral code and a cool staff. Like, this is doing more work on screen in canon than anyone has done with his character in decades. And that's fascinating.

Yeah, a couple of things about both of them. So number one shows up. He's just wearing that robe. He's got, he's got Fennek with him. Magnat Wen killing it. And he says, basically, like, that's my armor. That's the armor that my dad gave to me. And as soon as he started talking about that legacy,

I couldn't help but think about Ashley Schaefer BMW from East Bound and Down. Thank God. And let the boy watch. and I learned it from my father, who learned it from his father. And there was a part of me that really just was like, I'm so happy that this guy is playing Boba Feph, but was Will Ferrell that busy?

Well, Will Ferrell played Ashley Schaefer, so he plays Django. His son Gabriel, who brings the plums from the market. Right, and his wife, Beverly or Donna, depending on the take you watch. And for what it's worth, Gabriel was never cast in canon, in Eastbound Canon.

That's true. when we do the Mandalorian for Eastbounded out. No, and the other thing I was going to say about Boba Fed is I'm not so sure that he is, as a bounty hunter, he's no Li Ayacoka. Because he makes like a life oath to the Mandalorian after he gets his armor back where he's like, well, now I am on this long arduous journey with you to recover this child because I wanted my armor back. I think you could have got it for less than that.

I think that, you know, again, this isn't the parent in me, but this is the person approaching middle age in me. I think he's bored. I think retirement doesn't suit him. You know what I mean? He moved to basically the Palm Springs of the galaxy. Yeah, he finally shed his suit, you know, and could get into other things,

like maybe some sort of Eastern meditation. He's wearing a robe. Or maybe he just likes to go Schwitz. I don't know. But I think he missed the game, you know. And you can tell that because he seems to have picked up some new fighting skills, which is cool. The armor maybe didn't fit him as snugly as it used to.

Something that I really appreciated. He was wearing breathable pants while wearing the armor on top. It also suggested that he was wandering in the desert able to just fully doctor house people who were near death. And yet could not find it in his abilities over the last five years to best Timothy Oliphant in an armor competition. He couldn't get the armor. So I think that he protests a little too much. I just think he wants back in the action. To your point, though, about whether or not

Mandalorian is deviating from its mission of the weak thing, I think in a sense, that's inevitable, but even the suggestion that we're going to go and spring Bill Burr from prison next week. Well, this is the... People, like, there were a bunch of ringer tweets that I appreciated that were basically like, Mandalorian season two, Jason Gallagher sent this,

and it was just like dudes just draining three-pointers, which I think is correct. The idea that at the moment of heightened stakes, rising peril, they've lost Baby Yoda to the dark side, that the thing to do is go Spring Bill Burr, that's a heat check. That's a heat check for this show. You know what I mean?

That episode, while entertaining, that's the one that I would hold up as the low point of a show that hasn't really had many low points, just because it attempts to be like, you know, old-fashioned and kind of amusing, but also there are no real stakes here, and it's a comedian shooting a saber, I mean, shooting a blaster.

That was not its best. And so the fact that they're like, that's the guy we need in this galaxy full of stone cold killers, question mark. It's a testament to how good this show is, though, that like when that is put out as like the barrier for entry, like, well, we got to go get Bill Burbank to make sure that we can go get baby Yoda

and find Moff Gideon. I'm just like, sure, that sounds right. Yeah, you probably should go get, go get this guy out of prison. I'm sure there is a more direct line to Moff Gideon, but they are putting together their dirty dozen. You know, they have Bo Catan, they have Vasocca, they have Boba, they're going to get Bill Burr, you know,

maybe the frog lady. Just as you drew it up in all the Star Wars Reddit boards over the last decade. It's video game logic that we talked to, we talked about before. It was just like there is, there aren't unlimited paths. The show doesn't trouble itself with like being so clever to get us from A to B to C,

in a way we've never been before. It's just like, hey, that's B over there and it's on fire. We better do that. Okay, that's fine. And there's always forward momentum in the show. There's, like that character, the mandolin is always,

even when he stops to accomplish a mission to get the thing that he needs from that planet, he's always, it is just the gun smoke model of like, keep them moving, keep the character in progression. Now, if you wanted to do parenting corner on this show, when you realize that a baby recognizes a,

word or its name, you don't just do it as a parlor trick. That's not helping. That's not helping. Because Little Grog's is so excited every time Metal Dad says his name that it's just not fair. He's not actually doing anything, but he's so excited. I feel like he's crushing his young spirit and may end up pushing him to the dark side. That's my read on it. I have to say that as we sort of, this is the third to last episode? I think there are two left. I also just, my last note about it was just I thought Robert Rodriguez did a great job. It's apparently. He was like a last second replacement for someone who dropped out. And I don't know if that was like James Mangold or who wasn't able to do it. But he came in.

Don't be modest, Chris. It was you. He came in at the last second. That's right. I had a Harper's birthday from industry and wasn't able to direct the Mandalorian. Rodriguez came in. This episode has like a kind of guns of Navarone storming the mountain vibe to it. I really liked.

And it's just an excellent action. episode, I thought, like, given the setting. I agree with that. I think that he is a little bit casual with Stormtrooper death. And I have some notes about the post-empirus, sort of makeup of Stormtroopers. I saw Concepcio and tweeting about this, but I also had some notes about they don't really seem to have cover formations in the stormtroopers anymore. They just kind of like, it's sort of the way I used to play Max Payne when I would unlock unlimited lives and just run into rooms with two guns. But,

I didn't know if you noticed that the stormtroopers seemed to really be catching bad ones. I did. I think that one of the smartest things Lucas ever did was make stormtroopers, stormtroopers, because then it's the ultimate redshirt. Like, we don't ever see them. As a five-year-old, I thought they were just robots. And so I never really troubled me that they were being gunned down or lightsabered down. So this is definitely the inevitable conclusion to that.

I think that our friend Jason was making some very strong points on Twitter, which is like, at a certain point, is it even worth it wearing the armor that eliminates all peripheral vision if it is completely ineffective at stopping anything? I mean, this shit was chipping like plastic. It was completely useless. I don't know what it's meant to protect you from.

And then, yes, I do think my hope is that as Lucasfilm continues to mine its universe for content, I think there's a not uninteresting story about the economic opportunities for people in a... post-empirate world be like, it's a pension. You know what I mean? It's right. Like, I guess I'll do this. Like I, who makes money how and why and where is always

a little bit of a question mark. But maybe, maybe that's where we're headed. I did. Maybe we need a generation kill set in this moment of the. That wasn't that supposed to be the boyega character in the, the, the sequels? I mean, that was supposed to, yeah, you know, I mean, that was supposed to be like what happens to this guy when you realize you don't want to be a, stormtrooper. Well, that's good then. That means the Mandalorian is a fitting metaphor for how Lucasfilm treated John Boyega and how important he was to them.

I just wanted to sound not a serious note, but one real note that I thought we could chat a little bit about, which was in this episode of the Mandalorian, the Empire, the new Empire, the First Order, or whatever we're calling it, blasts Mandos' ship out of existence

beyond any repair even by cool robots. And I applaud that. And I applaud it for a very specific reason. This is also probably the darkest episode of the Mandalorian so much as if you are emotionally invested in Baby Yoda, he is in the most peril that he has been in this series. This is a good thing. One of the things that I think is really hamstrung Star Wars films,

especially the sequels, was the inability to kill their darlings. that as soon as something became something that you could merchandise or something that people essentially cared deeply about, that was off limits and that you basically couldn't have any... I'm not somebody who thinks

that the only thing that's like suitably dramatic is character death, but what happens to Chewbacca in the last sequel is a really good example of we want to have all of the simulation of an emotional experience without actually any of the consequences

of killing a character. And I'm not saying that baby Yoda is going to turn to the dark side or is going to and somehow get killed, God forbid. But I do think that blowing up that ship before it becomes a Millennium Falcon that people are overly invested in and have toys of and think about for 30 years and nothing bad can happen to this inanimate object that's part of a fictional world anyway, it's a good thing. You should take advantage of this opportunity to teach people how to watch this story without having them be like, I own this. You know what I mean?

Like that fandom thing is really pervasive in Star Wars and that idea that people are like, I can't have anything bad happen to the characters I love or the things that I care about. And I thought that this episode did a pretty good job of within the realm of it's still PG, PG-13-ish, kind of upsetting the Apple Card a little bit. I couldn't agree more with everything you're saying. And I hope that that's because of the unique position that John Favreau carved out for himself and for the show within Disney Clues and everything. Basically, like, this show is not necessarily targeted at people who buy toys other than people like Steve Carell and 40-year-old virgin toys. You know what I mean? And no disrespect to people who collect beautiful collectibles. And I know baby Yodas are flying off the shelves, but I don't even know if they expected that because I don't think they were ready for Christmas last year.

that's a good thing for the long-term storytelling health of this franchise. And I think that we won't do this, but hope maybe someone could, that if you look back on the most recent trilogy, the thing that it screwed up the most was death and what it meant. You mentioned the Chewbacca fake out in the third film, which was just atrocious. But also, Oscar Isaac's character was meant to die in the first one. And look, we love the star of Metal Gear Solid,

movie more than most podcasters. But obviously, Oscar Isaac is generally a value add to any production, but the character never fit. There was no role from to play. He stole screen time probably from John Boyega was meant to be a star, and it didn't matter. You know, no one knew what to do with him other than they liked to do with him. I don't even know if he stole scream time. I just think he was always, I always was expecting him to have something to do. Something to do. Right. Well, I just mean that the Carrie Russell plot line in that third movie is basically like a gesture to that. That's what I mean. And I don't think he stole screen time from Boeaga other than the fact that suddenly there was an extra character being shoehorned into it. And that character got some like some of the Han lines or the adventurous spirit. And then it's kind of duplicative. Like you don't need both. Similarly, like look at what they did to the three leads, right? I mean, Harrison Ford, Hans Solo is killed by his son in the first movie, which is again, like probably the most provocative idea in that whole series of movies. And it's classic JJ Abrams. like, yes, this, but what if that?

You know, and it gets a head exploding emoji, and then you have to make it work. They did that, and then spent the next two movies running as far away from that as they could because they wanted Adam Driver to be kind of heroic ultimately, even though he did this incredibly heinous, edible thing. Sure. Mark Hamill, I enjoyed what happened with Luke, but obviously the fandom didn't in the second movie. And then you have this terrible circumstance with Carrie Fisher, where you're building her to be

the star of the third movie, and she tragically passes us. away, and then you kind of ham fist it with this fake scene and CGI, and it's like, all of this is to say, I agree with you. There has to be stakes. There has to be lost. There has to be death. If this is going to be a long-term thing, it's not just fan service toy merchandising and backpadding. And hopefully the death of the Razor Crest is the beginning of realizing that. We'll be talking more about the next two episodes of Mandalorian

and the subsequent Monday episodes of the pod. But before we get to our interview with Hannah, I thought we would talk a little bit about bank. in any year, I think this would be a major movie just because it's a David Fincher movie and it's a David Fincher movie about making movies in a lot of ways. But in this year specifically, it stands strangely alone in the field. I mean, there's lots of cool movies this year. I'm going to do best films of the year with the Big Picture Gang in just a little bit. And it was such an interesting experience putting together a list of movies because my top movies are very similar to the movies that I see. saw this year. Right. So it's like one of my lists. Yeah, exactly. But Mank, I think in any year would be considered like a really major achievement. I know that there is some lukewarm reaction on Twitter to it. I think that it's a movie that really rewards multiple viewings and Netflix affords that. It's one of the better things I think about movies hitting streaming services like that is

that if there is something that is so layered and dense like Mank, you can immediately rewatch certain scenes. What did you think of it? I loved it. I totally loved it. And I can't wait to talk about why. But I do want to just pause and say, I know that on this podcast, we have immortalized Doug from Title, is the guy who totally botched the multiple album streams that were exclusive to title back in the day. I wonder if Doug kind of glowed up, got a corner office at Netflix back when people had offices. And he was the guy who whined and dined and made the deals and went to Ted Serendos and Reed Hastings and was just like, guy. I know we've been a TV company up till now with our content, but we're in the movie game in a big way. And Ted and Reader like, that's great news. What happened? He's just like, I got the new movies from Alfonso Quaron and David Fincher.

And they're like, holy shit, tell us about them. And he's like, okay, let me read the fine print. So they're both in, they're both deeply personal films in black and white. Right. And at that point, you heard the glass breaking as Doug was ejected into his next. Right. And the Virgin River folks were like, yes. Look, I love that Netflix made those movies.

I'm grateful to Netflix. It's just funny to me that that's like movie, is there a big movie push for eyeballs. They're not easy views. Okay, so Mank, I totally loved it. I wasn't even sure if I was going to love it, and I loved it in such a surprising and specific way, which is to say that I didn't know Fincher had jokes.

Like, I didn't know that Fincher was going to make a movie that would be this kind of funny and light and clever and witty at times, you know. It was such a pleasure for me to see a movie that probably when all of a sudden done and Fincher's filmography is like a holy scroll for us to consider will stand out from his work as obviously deeply personal because the script was originally written by his father and personal in that it is about making movies. But this feels like the kind of one for him that could be completely re-enely.

energizing in a career as incredible as his has already been. And specifically, what I mean by that is he is, you don't need a completely naive like me to be like this guy's a master filmmaker. You can listen to Sean in the big picture. You can read any other director talk about him. The level of detail and the visual brilliance that is his hallmark is front and center in Man. It's gorgeous to look at every moment, the lighting in the black and white and the grain

that he put on it to make it seem like an old film is just stunning. But I'm thinking a lot about what Scott Frank said to us last week when we were talking about the Queen's Gambit, where he was saying that the best advice Stephen Soderberg ever gave him as a director was to fight the urge to make a perfect shot and to remember the value of a pleasing shot. Because a perfect shot can be kind of, if you spend so much time worrying and fretting over the details,

you bleed the life from something. And the thing about Fincher is that he is the exception that proves the rule. Every image is perfect, but it feels alive, right? But this movie brought in a different kind of life to it that I just was so happy to see it. It swings, you know, it's funny. It's surprising and clever and snappy and playful

even while every shot is composed within an inch of its life. And I adored watching it for that reason. Yeah, I think the number one question I wanted to ask you about Mank is how you felt about Tom Pelfrey and Gary Oldman taking jobs away from Jewish actors. Okay, thank you. This was the thing that I wasn't going to bring up. Has anyone checked Arles Howard's background, too?

He is Jewish, I believe. He and Deppar Winger very involved in peace in the Middle East, I think. Well, they could be coming out of from different sides. I'm just saying, there was a strong, strong element of Mrs. Maisel going on to me. And I take this especially personally, not just as a Jew, but the Mankowitz's, Chris, were born in Wiltsbara, PA, as was I. Uh-huh. So we are basically the same, you know.

Like, I can think of no differences between us. You should get a co-writing credit on All About Eve, yeah. I've often thought so. My work on Cleopatra is really, really underrated. You know, it's one of those things where if Gary Oldman is playing you and someone as handsome as Tom Pelfrey, is playing one of you? I'm like, I'm not mad at that. You know what I mean? I feel like that's good for the brand. It's good for us. It's good. Thank you for asking. That was really, that really was at the forefront of my mind. No, you know, I think that I've seen some people say like this is

an outlier, this is a one of one from Fincher. And I, I disagree with that. I definitely think that this feels of a piece with his work. I think that they're, in a lot of ways, this reminded me a lot of social network. In some ways, Hank felt, a little more sorky to me than social network did in some ways. There's both, there are some tropes and flourishes that happen within it that I associate with sorken, but I think also the concern with mass media and who decides what we see and what we hear and what we know and what we learn is something that Fincher's touched on before.

And he touched on it in Gone Girl. I mean, he's able to come back to these themes. I think he touches on it a little bit in Zodiac, too. The role of media in the world is obviously like a real big theme for him. I mentioned that it rewards multiple viewings. And I wanted to kind of throw this to you as a more general question because so I watched it. And I think I had a very similar reaction to the one that Sean described when they did the big picture episode last week about it, which is you kind of watch it. And the first 30 minutes are going by.

And there's so much happening. And yet it seems so light in some ways. And you're kind of like, oh, is this? this going to be told from the perspective of a guy in traction who's reading large swaths of the Citizen Kane script out loud? And then it obviously frees itself up and starts going back and forth across time. But when you watch it the first time and then you start to just go back and whether you watch it in sections or you watch the entire thing again, I think knowing Upton Sinclair is going to be a major part of the movie or, you know, keep an eye on the Shelley Metcalf

character because even though he seems like he's just the sixth guy in the room, he winds up being an important part. Or little bits about his and Joseph or his in Louis B. Mayer, his in Thalberg, or his in Salznik's relationships wind up kind of all coming together in a knot towards the end. I felt like that was much more rewarding the second time around than the first time where I think I was just sort of blown away by the technical achievement and the look and the feel of the movie. I totally agree with you and I appreciate that observation so much because I didn't really know what I was going into. Obviously, the headline of, or the logline is Mankewitz writing Citizen Kane and his tussles with both Hearst and Orson Wells. That's not what this movie is.

The fact that the actual engagement with Wells really only comes at the very end and is secondary to the movies really, interesting politics surprised me. And I found it much more compelling. And as you said, I was in a similar boat. The first, and this is also the Netflix nature of it, like watching it on my couch, you're not drawn in as immediately as you are in a theater where you've been, you've gotten your seat, you've watched trailers and you're in from jump. You know, I was fidgeting a little bit in the first 10, 20 minutes, partly because of the Netflix nature of it, but also partly because I wasn't sure what the movie was other than the fact that I was enjoying it. When it zeroes in on that, It's like, oh, it's actually incredibly relevant in a lot of surprising ways and pointed, you know, politically in a way that I really admired.

That, that leveled up for me. That leveled the movie up for me and my perception of it. If anything, it kind of underplays, I think, the Wells tension, which is, it's been interesting to read Mark Harris over at Vulture has had a conversation with Fincher about this and he was just tweeting about it again today that in his, Jack Fincher, David's father's early drafts, it was basically like the Pauline Kale article writ large. The Raising King. Wells is a fraud. He had nothing to do with this. And this isn't what that movie is. And I think it's to its credit that it's not. That's there the idea of authorship, but also a much deeper idea over art as advocacy and art versus life and what we contribute to when we engage

with the broader social world and the cost that it can take from us. that was really, really obviously relevant to 2020, but just really fascinating and compelling in a different way. I love the movie. I hope our listeners get a chance to watch it, and maybe we'll talk about it a little bit more. I do, but what do you think about this idea? If somebody says to you, yeah, this movie's great,

you got to watch it twice. Like, do you look at that as a prescription for something that you don't really want to ever catch in the first place? I, you know, I don't like watching things again. I don't enjoy it generally, and I don't generally at the time. but it's easier when something's pleasurable. This is just such a great and fun hang, and it's beautiful, and the performances are incredible.

I mean, in it's saying something to say, I'd watch this again, considering the most devastating gut shot of the film is when bloated 60-year-old drunk Gary Oldman announces, I'm 43 years old. I mean, I feel like the two of us felt particularly triggered by that moment. but I think it merits a second viewing and I think it would, you know, I actually might consider doing it myself.

The other thing that I wanted to add, though, that I think is really interesting since we haven't had a chance to talk too much Fincher since then was just, you know, his reputation as exacting, as a perfectionist, as demanding. And, you know, I think Charles Dance, who was, by the way, I first became aware of Charles Dance in a Alien Three.

Yeah. Nailing 3. Yeah. Said that the big dinner confrontation scene, they did like 100 takes of that. Yeah. And I think our perception of that is like, oh, what a, you know, a monster, demanding, stereotypical, exacting perfectionist director. And like Jake Gyllenhaal didn't love it.

Downey didn't love it on Zodiac, although it got interesting work from them. And then when you and I talked to Kim Dickens last year and we talked to her about Gone Girl, and she's like, I love it. I love David. I love doing it. And there's a certain kind of actor that's like, oh, this is what I want to do. I want to get in the arena and wrestle. Yeah.

And when you watch this movie, I don't know how every individual actor's feeling was, but, like, Lily Collins is great in this movie. Tubbins Middleton is great in this movie. Arles Howard is great in this movie. And these are all actors who I have time for. Sure. But I wasn't necessarily checking for it. Pelfrey was great.

Pelfrey from, yeah. All of them. And it seems like they buy in and he really gets something. You know, it's, I'll leave it to Sean to explain this to me. And I'm sure that he has been and will continue to. but Fincher is really unique because he is that exacto-knife blade of a technician. But he gets a humanity that other directors sometimes can't. I'm a connoisseur of David Fincher multiple take stories.

Like I love Robert Downey Jr. peeing in jars on the set of Zodiac as a message to Zodiac to Fincher. The Mark Ruffalo stories about Fincher making him do like 85 takes of a walk-and-talk and him almost thinking that he was going to get fired, but Fincher actually just wanting to change a background player's, like, diction or posture. I love all of them. I think you can do that. And the reason why these stories are resonate with people is because of the results. If he was, not to cast aspersions, but if he was Josh Trank, nobody would care about how many takes he did. It would just be like, clearly that's not working.

Clearly what Fincher does works. He gets incredible performances out of people and he gets them into this zone. And everything I've read about it is that the reason why he does what he does, is so that he can match the levels of performance, not only from the actors, but from the technicians who are working on set with him, at the same level. So that Robert Downey Jr. and the grip and the lighting, and everything is all humming at the same frequency at the same moment.

And that's whether he stitches that together from take 35 and take 64, or whether that's like actually just happens on one of these takes is what Fincher is looking for. before we get to Hannah, I just wanted to ask you about a quick news story that's just sort of popped up while we were recording. And that was going back to our conversation at the end of last week about Warner Brothers moving its entire 2021 cinematically, theatrical slate onto HBO Max. We had sort of talked, I think, both on the pod and a little bit off the pod about whether or not this was a horse leaving the barn situation and what the state of the barn was in regards to how the filmmakers, and producers of these movies that were moving into this dual release strategy felt about this. And now it turns out according to the variety report that just recently went up today, it sounds like Legendary Entertainment, I'm quoting, the production company that co-financed Dune and Godzilla versus King Kong may take legal action

against Warner Brothers over the studio's decision to send its movies to HBO Max at the same time that they debut in cinemas. Apparently, Legendary is looking for more generous terms in their agreement, with HBO and it also has a bit in here about Denis Villeneuve being pretty disappointed that this is going to be the fate of Dune, which is obviously the project that he's dedicated

the last couple of years of his life to. Any reaction to that story? I just think I'm not surprised. I mean, there are so many, especially when you're talking about movies on that level, there are so many cooks in the kitchen and it's a very,

very, very, very expensive kitchen. Like the ingredients they're cooking with are not cheap. And it's such a delicate balancing act to pull off anything on that level. And I can't even imagine what like the line item budget for something like Dune or Godzilla even looks like. And all of the profit participation, all of the, you know, we would need the boys from industry to come in and explain to us just like all of these companies. Like how does legendary work? They put up hundreds of millions in expectation of getting in return hundreds millions more. That is extremely high-stakes balancing act, which isn't to say this can't work, which isn't to say that WarnerMedia didn't make this decision, this extremely bold decision without realizing this was going to happen and without being prepared to pay to make it work.

But the expectations versus the return, I mean, there are a lot, there are a lot of moving pieces here, and not everyone is going to be comfortable with it. And you notice, I only responded to the first part of your question, which was the financial part. The artistic part, I mean, it's got to be crushing. It's got to be crushing for these people, you know. And as crushing it is for Denisville and Nove, like when Dune finally comes out, we'd like to think that more theaters will be open around the world. For Patty Jenkins, who, from early advance warning, and obviously this is the people they invite to see it are probably the softest touches. But Wonder Woman 84 sounds good. People seem thrilled with it.

She not only spent years working on this and imagining a certain kind of rollout, then they press pause to avoid this, but ultimately it's this, you know. So it's tough. It's tough. I mean, in the scheme of things, in the scheme of suffering in the world this year, it's not tough. I should always use that caveat. But it has to be disappointing and managing people's financial disappointments and their creative

emotional disappointments. Jason Killar's job right now is probably a little bump. be. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to get into our interview with Hannah Fidel. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime.

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merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. All right, Andy, so we're about to be joined by Hannah Fidel, who's the creator, writer, directed many episodes of a teacher. She also made the original film, the 2013 movie that it's based on. This is a show that we haven't had a real chance to talk about on an episode by episode basis, or really at all, but I have been watching with my wife intently and enjoying, and it's really great that we got a chance to talk to Hannah, It's such a, it's a show that I think is like ripe for conversation and it provokes a lot of of conversation. What are your feelings on it? And how do you know Hannah?

I really like and admire Hannah a lot as a filmmaker. As you said, she made the film a teacher, which is excellent. And then she also made a follow up that we both had a lot of time for, I think called it The Long Dumb Road, starring our friend Jason Manzuchas. I think one of his first, not a first, but he definitely came on the podcast to promote that movie at the time. And, you know, I think Hannah is an extremely talented director. She's also done a lot of TV work, including on the act, which was on Hulu the other, a year ago or two years ago. And, you know, that came through in our interview as well. This show is extremely challenging.

It's challenging in its subject matter. It's challenging what it asks of its performers. And it's challenging in what it asks of the audience. This is, I think we haven't found our way into the conversation talking about it, partly because it is a decidedly tough hang at times. as it should be because it is a show that, you know, sees thorny issues of consent and grooming, and it dives right in, you know, and does not hold back and ultimately present something that is, that is, I think, extremely tough and fair-minded and features just a phenomenal performance from Kate Mara, who, as I say in the subsequent interview, remains my number one Mara, my number one

draft pick. And it was great to talk to Anna about it because I think the challenges of executing a show like this are, there are a lot. It's a very difficult bar to clear, and I think she does. Many episodes are streaming now on FX on Hulu. I think we're up to seven or eight. Yes. As of this week, out of 10 total, we do not talk past where the show is. It's a more general conversation. And we love talking to Hannah. Yeah, so let's get into our interview right now. Chris and I are thrilled to be joined by the creator, the writer, the director of most of the episodes, I think, of the really amazing FX series, FX on Hulu, I should say, series, a teacher, Hannah Fidel. Welcome to the Watch. Hi. Thanks for joining us, Hannah.

Very happy to be here. We are so excited to have you, not only because we're thrilled to talk about this show with you, but also you have been kind enough to say that you are a listener of this podcast. Big time. Which really puts the pressure on us. thing. To deliver. Hannah, I know that this is not the takeaway that most people are going to take from a teacher, but I think it's a testament to how long I've spent inside of my house that I was

watching an episode last night. So we'll be airing this podcast on Monday. I believe it's tonight's episode. And the character Eric is outdoors at a food truck having a couple of beers. And I was like, God, I miss Austin. Like, I was like, I don't think that that's like the takeaway you're supposed to have from a teacher, but I was like, I can't wait to go get food truck barbecue and a couple of beers outdoors.

I feel the same way. And it brings me so much joy that you felt like you missed Austin from that scene because we got it in Calgary. Oh, my God. Well, it was very authentic to me. Great. The magic of Hollywood. Hannah, I have sort of a, it might be a winding question, or at least might demand a winding

answer because for people who don't know, a teacher began for you with the film, which is a really excellent movie you made. It came out in 2013 called a teacher, similar subject matter. And I guess the two-part question is, could you talk us through a little bit about the evolution of a teacher as it went from movie to TV show seven years later? But also specifically about what was it about this story in particular that kept you engaged with it as it evolved? And it did evolved considerably, I think, over the seven years. Yeah, totally. Well, where to begin?

So the movie is very much only from the teacher's perspective. And that was due to just the limitations that come with making a small independent film. And we were lucky enough to get into Sundance. And from there, people saw it. and a producer approached me, Michael Costigan. He said, I need to know what happens after the movie ends. And from there, we, and this was back in 2013, we actually originally sold it to HBO.

And we're developing it there. And through just sheer luck or stupidity, I was able to retain the rights to the underlying IP to the movie. So the TV rights, rather. So when it became clear that HBO wanted Euphoria, which is an amazing show that I love very much, we took it back out to the marketplace and FX when we pitched them. just really they got it and have been great partners. But of course, you know, over those seven

years, a lot happened culturally in terms of, I mean, specifically the Me Too movement. And that allowed me to engage with the story in a totally different way by opening it up. It's really a two-hander, both the student and the teacher, both of their perspectives in it. And so it feels fresh. It didn't feel like I was remaking something because to me, the characters actually feel quite different. The tone is very different. And also, it's fun being able to remake your own stuff.

I was going to say, it's a bad metaphor for a show about a teacher, but you got another bite at the apple, which not everyone gets to do. do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's sort of all around. I think I, in those seven years, I had made a few more movies. I had done some more TV and, and I think I learned a lot that helped me sort of build out the show as a whole. And so where along in that process did Kate get involved? Was she all the way back in the HBO days, or is she more of a recent edition when you guys moved to FX? It was when we took it back out and went to FX. But, you know, I have to say, I really, I have to give major props to friend of the show, Jason Manzukas.

Yeah. Star of one of your excellent movies, The Long Gum Road. Yes, yes. When we were on the set of my film Long Dem Road, we were talking about how I was about to go take out the show again. again and how much I hate pitching. And he is a master pitcher. And so he gave me advice for how to do it. And I really, I truly credit him with us being able to resell the show because he said,

and I ended up doing this, he said, okay, you print out a stack of documents that are just photos of female teachers who have been caught sleeping with their students that you can then just hand over, just like drop it on the table and go in to bitch. And we did. And, you know, so it was this like, this is a real thing that happens. These women look seemingly normal. They don't look like villains. They don't look evil. Some of them are even attractive. And our culture is obsessed with it. So he just, his brain is amazing. But thank you, Jason, if you're listening.

I feel like that bag would have been a very strange thing to bring through like airport security. Like, I'm glad that you went directly to your pitch meetings. I'm just glad you didn't also just act like Rafi from the league in your pitch meetings. That probably would have been. Great point. You would have probably sold something. It just probably wouldn't have been a teacher.

It wouldn't have been a teacher. Yeah. But can we, but to bring it back specifically to Cape Mera, because I think that, Chris and I, actually, I don't know if Chris agrees with me. This was one of the biggest arguments ever in the offices of the late lamented website, Grantland.com, was who was the superior Mara? And I feel like, you know, I've been proved right because I have been reping Kate for the better part of a decade now. Chris, I think, was like Wellington. Wellington. Wellington Mara is his favorite. The owner of the New York Giants. So he was disqualified. But, you know, I can't imagine. I generally, I'm sure you speak to any show. runner, they would, they could get a version of this question about their star that would be almost impossible to make a show without a creative partner that you could rely on to this degree. I feel like that's especially so with a project like this. And her performance is riveting

and so layered and so committed. And it feels like you would need to have a very specific kind of trust level and communication level with your star to, to execute like this. Well, she's fearless. I mean, and specifically fearless and her desire to, and being okay with not being likable. And I think that's something that a lot of actors struggle with, that they need to be liked by the audience. And for her, what excites her about acting is playing roles that aren't necessarily the most likable because it makes it more exciting. She is an executive producer on the show, and as you guys know, sometimes actors just get that credit, and that's part of the deal. But she really was an active EP, read every single draft. I could talk to her early on about her character and just being able to have that sounding board and right force.

someone, I think really was invaluable. But yeah, I mean, she just, she had a, this is crazy to me now that I'm about to have a kid, but she had a kid three months before we started shooting. And she called me on her way to the hospital and was like, I'm having the baby early. I'm getting induced. This is going to be great for our shooting. Are you going to return the first? favor? Will you call her on the way? Hey, Kate. Some news. Yeah. Hannah, I was curious about your sort of

relationship or research that you did on people of Eric's age, like, whether or not, because I would imagine kids have changed a lot since 2013 in terms of the way technology plays a role in their life even more so now than it did in 2013 and how that how that has evolved over the years and as you developed the character of Eric and truly made this like a two-hander and and worked worked on that on that part what how like the 2019 2020 of it all factored into it yeah i think to be perfectly honest uh the reason why we set the show in 2013 was because we knew that we were going to fast forward in time. And so I didn't want to have to deal with what the future looked like

and end up making episode 10 into a Black Mirror episode. I mean, like our brains were already exploding in the writer's room when we were thinking about episode 10. So we landed on 2013 because, for a variety of reasons, One being Instagram was a thing that people were using en masse by that point. And also it was pre-Me too. And so the sort of wokeness that I think a lot of young people have today, I don't think existed.

And the conversations around consent and abuse of power weren't happening in 2013. and it sort of makes Eric that much more vulnerable, and which to me makes it that much sadder. Hannah, you're talking about the Me Too movement and if not wokeness, but a general kind of awokening, not just among people or young people, but I think, thankfully and much overdue within the industry as well in terms of its approach

to tackling more challenging subjects. And I wondered for you navigating the creation of this show and even up to while directing it in some of the more intense scenes that you directed, how did you keep yourself attuned to all of it? And I realize I'm kind of being vague here. What I mean is you have to make something that feels true to the art and to yourself, but you're also trying to be sensitive to the performers. You're trying to be sensitive to the potential viewers and to the audience in the future that will be receiving it. You know, and a lot was made this year. A term came into our conversation that I didn't know before of intimacy coordinator. That was for normal people, right?

When normal people came out. And so here you are making a show that requires a lot of very delicate intimacy coordination, whether you actually had one on set or not. And then also, you know, trying to be respectful of someone who's essentially being abused while being true to your art. How did you perform that balancing act? Well, for me, I am myself a victim of sexual assault, so I feel like it maybe gave me more license to explore the various avenues of consent in a way that someone who hasn't been through that trauma or healing process might be able to. I also, and this is, as, you know, I'm glad that we did this, really glad we did this, but we brought on consultants who were therapists who specialized in male victims of sexual abuse. And so through our, and that was in the writer's room.

So through our conversations with them, we really got a sense of what the, trajectory of victimhood and looks like because it's actually quite different than what it does for female survivors. And I knew some people who had had relationships with their female high school teachers and they were open with me and were willing to share their stories. But yeah, I think it's really, you know, for me, I care more about making something that's honest and true instead of it being a advocacy piece. And, you know, we really, we were walking a very fine line with this show. And I'm glad relieved, in fact that people can see that. Because the, you know, we made a pretty bold decision that we wanted the audience to feel complicit in the relationship early on.

And, you know, that could be dangerous. But part of that is because that is the, we wanted the audience to go on the same trajectory as Eric does, which is one of infatuation. You just alluded to it. It's ongoing in such an interesting way. And anyone who follows you on Instagram, as I do, are seeing that you are taking in all these reactions. And the reactions are fascinating because people are watching it kind of like they watch a horror movie. They can't turn away. There is unquestionably kind of a salacious thrill in the viewing, in the act of viewing, you know.

And it does make us complicit because in that moment when Claire confesses, you find, you're on the couch and you're like, don't do it, don't do it. Even though, of course, the other, the friend, I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the character's name, she's right. Her reaction is 100% the correct reaction and her behavior is spotless. And yet, you've put us in this position. Yeah, yeah, that was very purposeful. And, you know, I people, I think, don't talk about this enough.

But, Andy, I mean, you know this. As a showrunner, it's like, our job isn't just. the writing. It's also, we're, in essence, directing the audience. Yeah. And we really went hogwild with that idea on this show. You know, I was kind of wondering about, because episode five in a lot of ways has been my favorite so far, the one, the episode where Claire and Eric go away for the weekend. And I was, you're talking about the complicity in the, in the audience. I kind of, I was like, I wonder whether or not I'm reacting to this because they're not being watched. You know what I mean?

Like I think that a lot of those early episodes and then in the fallout afterwards has a lot to do with them concealing and then or dealing with the fallout from what they've done. But that sort of one moment of suspended animation, they're in that house and they can be anybody that they sort of want to be, which is obviously with each other, as bad of an idea as that is. But I felt myself getting sucked into cheering for them. You know what I mean? Because I think I saw like, they do have.

a very sincere connection, even though it's really fucked up. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about making that episode particularly and how you kind of handled maintaining a distance from these two characters while they're the only two people we're going to see for a majority of the episode. Yeah, no, we, I think the direction that I gave the writer's room was, I want the audience to feel like they've been punched in the stomach at the end of this episode. Yeah. And in order to do that, we really needed to build up the fairy tale that these two are living in and that the audience might be living in as well.

So, yeah, I mean, I just, I find that episode to be so incredibly sad. Yeah. because it is, it's the balloon being popped. It is reality hits Claire like a ton of bricks. And we finally are able to have that voice of reason in Catherine, the teacher that I think all of us won over those five episodes. leading up to it. So yeah, I mean, it, it, we always knew that we wanted Claire to, to be the one to

out herself, because that was the most unexpected version. But, yeah, it's, it's an intense step. But I, but I love the way directorially, in just in terms of how you ran the series, you puncture the balloon so intensely, visually as well. because you go from those beautiful vistas of their rental home to the griminess of the motel, I think just one episode later. And it does not feel escapist or romantic or special in any way. It's the opposite.

You know, there are a lot of things that go into any show. And I think we could go down a list of things that, you know, that moved us so that we commend you for, whether it was, you know, it's casting or the use of social media on the screen. But there's one particular technical or procedural, I guess, decision that you made that I to stand up and applaud, and I'm very curious about where it came from, which is, you made a half-hour drama. I'm so glad, not just purely because, not purely because I like things shorter, but because it's unexpected, it changes the rhythm. And I think ultimately, and I didn't know this going in, that it gets so uncomfortable at times that this is the correct dosage, you know, I mean,

obviously people can, especially now, you can binge multiple episodes on FX, or on FX on Hulu, but this feels right. And I wondered if that was your intention going in or if it was a suggestion or if it was something you found along the way. No, that was from day one at HBO. It was always going to be a half hour drama. And I think we were really drawn to that a friend of mine,

Amy Simetz, made the girlfriend experience, which I think does such an excellent job as well, of utilizing the half-hour drama format. But by watching that, I really was able to see that, yes, it's possible. And even, I mean, it's weird, it's a weird comparison, but just in the architecture,

I kept looking at, and I know it's technically a comedy, but I kept looking at Atlanta. And just the way that they skip in time and fast forward and episodes can be these contained moments and that that's okay. So, you know, it opened up a lot of freedom for what we could show and also what we didn't have to show, which was great. You know, I was curious about the moments, you know, especially when Eric first goes to school

and the way in which his friends are sort of celebrating his behavior. And then there's also, I don't know the name of the actress, but she's in Shithouse, the woman who plays his first college girlfriend kind of. Yeah, she's great. And the introduction of a lot of the sort of vocabulary for how to understand his situation, both in terms of like his frat brothers being like, you're a legend, which sort of kind of confirms is I'm the motherfucking man stuff in the mirror. but then the first kind of wave he gets of like, no, you should be, you know, you're a victim and you should

kind of understand that about yourself. And I want to take it slow because of that. I was curious about you know, where you're thinking, how you're thinking has evolved over the years making it about what a character like Eric must have been going through in that situation and how, especially since you do set it in a very, I know obviously it was Calgary apparently, but like I think that that culture of like, frat, like UT frat culture would have that element of it, but it was really interesting to me that you're introducing Eric to all these ideas of how to understand his own situation.

Yeah, I think that was really from the conversations that I had with the consultants in the writers room who were therapists who had specialized and this sort of thing. And from the conversations I had with people, I knew guys, I knew who had gone through it. The frat guy world is one that sadly I know too well. I went to Indiana University, dated the president of a fraternity.

Those guys can write themselves. I want to spin off of just the frat life. Let me make that show someone. But I, you know, I think that episode, and this is episode seven, really exemplifies what makes it so hard to be a male victim, what the double standard of can men even be victims, which obviously they can be. But I think so much of the show is about that conversation

because it's the same confusion that Eric feels about whether he is, or isn't a victim based on the way that people are talking to him, that I hope that the audience is also having with each other as they're watching. A teacher is not necessarily light watching. I don't think you would intend it to be. But Chris and I have found some small amounts of fun at the margins with, it's always a tragic character. Got to talk about Lake Light.

But we have to talk about Lake Light. because the commitment to this guy having a essentially a will-go covers band. Don't, don't, let's not minimize what Matt's doing here, you know? My favorite moment in the series, just like on an enjoyment level, not an appreciation level,

may have been when she returns home, Claire returns home from her first assignation with her student. And my man, Matt, just has the boys over. And he's like, we were just, we were just chatting about things we could cover.

And I said, why not get together? Why not do it? Why not jam? And, you know, it's beautifully observed. It's not even a question. It's not even a question. Maybe we could just jam now that we're all here. Are there Lake Light Originals lying around?

Like, did you get anything to tape of like, is it kind of like a broken social scene thing or is it? We talked a lot about this in the writer's room. Yeah, it's really, it's a lot of Wilco broken social scene, exactly. You know, I have to say, shout out to my husband, Jake. He's in a Grateful Dead cover band. And love it very much. We saw him at the bowl.

Chris and I were at the show when he opened for Vampire Weekend. So we know this has lived experience. And we were going to ask you how this played out in your own home. But judging by the beautiful Christmas tree and everything, it seems like you've worked out. It's going well. Yeah, good. No, I, you know, I think, you know, he loves the character of Matt for obvious reasons. That scene when Claire comes home and finds Matt's used his grandfather's bonds to buy all of this equipment that will never lose value.

I mean, I can't tell you how much joy that brings him when. he watches the show. But, yeah, I mean, for something that I feel very strongly about and that I've learned since making the original movie is that you just, you have to have moments of levity. Yeah. Because otherwise, especially with a show whose subject matter is so dark like this, it just would be painful to watch.

And so I love that you guys picked up on that nugget. We threw in as many. What a shock, honestly. You know? But also, like, and Hannah, you know this from making many movies, but also now as a showrunner, you know, God is in the details. And when you take the time to name it Lake Light, it's just Chef's Kiss. But it goes further than that because it becomes part of the visual language and the emotional language of the show because I'm thinking about a later moment, which is not a light moment whatsoever. But there's a moment later in the series when Matt is basically like, we're going to make this work.

I forgive you very quickly, he says this. And he says it over a takeout rotisserie chicken, which I can't stop thinking about. Because in a normal life, him jamming, having a nice oaky cab in the evening, you know, rotissory chicken, this is fine. This is not even dog and burning house. This is fine. This is actually fine. But it wasn't fine for her. And you feel that she's going to feel overwhelmed.

and run out of there before she does because of the way he's cutting that rotissory chicken. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's a goner. Hannah, thank you so much for spending so much time with us today. You've been really generous and we really enjoy the show. Congratulations on this show. You've been working on this for so long. I know the world knows and it's really exciting to see it be received so well, have it out in the world. Thank you so much. Chris, I have one question for you. Okay. Kings of London.

Yeah. Why? She's a plan. Honestly, it's like, it's a problem. It's a problem. My friends know it's a problem for me, but like I don't even know if I can feel anymore. You know, it's just like,

I need, like, violence on that level just to feel like I'm, like, awake in the morning. Like, when I watch, when I'm watching something like that, I need those guys to take it to that level. I feel like that show fell off a little bit after, we don't need to get into it. Did you watch the whole thing? Or were you just like, what the fuck is he talking about?

Well, my husband started watching it because he love it so much. Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I dipped in and I had, I told the ending this, I had legit nightmares about night fights and British dudes the night after. I think there's a way to kind of pivot your thinking maybe before you dream and just imagine that you're in the gang of London. Because I feel like your dream was that. being attacked and beset by gangs of London.

Right. But I would feel more secure going out into London knowing that I had the gang with their knives and dash trays and stuff, flanking me. It's all about that perspective ship. But just like your show, a teacher, streaming now on FX on Hulu, bang, podcast.

Hannah, thank you so much. Yes, thank you. I'm so sorry I made you watch that. Where's my apology? You have to. It's a professional obligation. Bye, guys. Take care. Thank you, Hannah. Thank you, Hannah.