The Watch - 'The Mandalorian' News, Plus the Ups and Downs of TV Auteurism | The Watch (Ep. 311)

Episode Date: December 3, 2018

News about forthcoming Star Wars live-action series ‘The Mandalorian’ has leaked, and it doesn’t bode well for the show (1:42). Netflix is cancelling the Marvel television series ‘Daredevil’ after its third season, and Disney launching its own streaming service may have something to do with it (8:52). ‘The Romanoffs’ feels like bloated, end-stage Peak TV (33:27), and the second half of ‘The Little Drummer Girl’ is mesmerizing (45:50). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Read Chris and Alison Herman’s list of best tv shows of 2018 here. Read Miles Surrey and Andrew Gruttadaro’s list of best television episodes of 2018 here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly. Throughout the month of December, the Ringer staff will be releasing their year-end reviews covering the best and worst of 2018 in sports, TV, movies, music, and more. This week on the site, you can read Chris Ryan and Alison Herman on the best TV shows of 2018, and Chase Serrano and Rob Harvilla on the best albums of the year. You can check it all out on the Ringer.com. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now.

Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. It's the Mandalorian. It's Andy Greenwald! Is that going to be my intro for the next two years? Yeah. We're really squeezing a lot out of this Mandalorian news cycle.

The thing is, it's 24-7 Mandalorian season, Z-N. I'm so fucking mad at this show. Wait, what? Yeah, I'm really mad about this show. Talk about it. Because it's supposed to be kind of... So the Mandalorian is this... Hey, what's up, guys?

Hey, everybody. Happy Monday. Happy Monday. Andy and I are going to talk a little bit about the Mandalorian for the next two years. Haven't they just assumed that? We're also going to talk. We have a couple other news bits to get to. We're going to finish Little Drummer Girl.

We're going to finish Little Drummer Girl. We're also going to start the Romanoffs. No, we actually, both of us, we took a dip in the warm bath of Matthew Weiner's peak TV. We cherry-picked. Yeah. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. I know that that's very delayed, but I think we can draw some observations out of it. We've been talking about the Mandalorian.

subscription numbers. For two months. This show may never happen. Can we still, at what point during our podcast life cycle over the next year, will we just be sitting at these mics pitching Mandalorian spec scripts? Okay, well, let me just tell you what's going on with the fucking, the Mandalorian is really screwing it up, man. What are you guys doing over there in Disney?

Bob. Bob. Should we open the channel to Bob Iger? Mr. Iger. Sir. you got my attention. You're going to make the first live action

Star Wars show. You're going to put it on Disney Plus. Disney Plus for Americans. So you guys got my attention. Bob Iger does

with the Mandeloran. He's got John Favreau's executive producing and writing a lot of it. Tycho Waititi is involved in it. All these great directors they signed Patriot Pascal to be the star.

Oh, I didn't know that. They got fucking Nick Nolte out of out of cryogenic freezing to be in this show. And I'm like, God damn, this might be good. And the thing that Andy and I've talked about for six years is how Star Wars is pretty malleable. You know what I mean?

Like in your mind, as you grow older, I think you kind of imbue it with more adult sensibilities than maybe it actually has when you watch it. You know what I mean? It's like there's lots of really goofy shit in there for kids. But like in your mind, you're like, oh, this is about a guy. He's like his father. treat him and then

was that a Star Wars spoiler? This is like a pretty big thing because we're like oh we're excited for the mandolary maybe it'll be like

a PG-13 like an edgy assassin show set in the far reaches of space according to making Star Wars which has

then redirected our attention to Star Wars leaks Reddit so this is not this all seems on the up and up this is not exactly

fresh out of Bob Eager's inbox but it still is something that I'm getting annoyed at just the same and you know

I love you and I love talking about the Mada Lorain. Because just for the record, people should know the context. When I walked in here today, Chris was waiting at the door, like young Yeller. He didn't speak to me when he saw me coming. He just turned and sat down. He had such a head of steam about, I didn't know what.

Everybody was coming out to kiss the ring. And I was like, let's go. Come on. Kevin Clark and Gallagher, fucking beat it. Making Star Wars, they call attention to Star Wars leaks Reddit. And there is a post in the Reddit that says, and I quote, I guess the Mandalorian encounters a baby

on one of his missions that he is supposed to kill. But instead of that, he ends up saving it and a lot of the rest of the story revolves around their growing relationship and his efforts to keep the child safe and protected. So it's lone wolf and cub,

the famous manga. That's what they're doing. It's a warrior and a baby. Is that a famous manga? Yes. Okay. It's also like the story of Shane and Lowe.

Logan. It's Logan. Yeah. Okay. It's been done. But you know my brain, straight to manga. But I don't, I don't need a baby to make me know the stakes, man. Like, I hate bringing babies into this stuff. Listen, this has been, I guess we're talking about our relationship since I started a family. It's Monday. Let's get into it. You know what I mean, though? Like, I just think this could be a complete red herring and it could be about something else. And I actually can't even really, explain like what Mandalorians are, I think that's where Boba Fett comes from, right? But like, I just

sometimes like I'm just like, why do you guys always have to make it so saccharine where it's like, well, nobody would ever understand why anybody would do anything unless it was motivated by protecting a child. My kids love you. Your uncle Chris to them. So they're going to take this heart. But

I generally agree with you. Thank you. I think that it is it can be done right. Yeah. But very often it is done wrong. It's a very easy, it's a very easy thing in terms of communicating what you want to communicate at this stage before it exists. And then all of a sudden you have to execute a show where you've got a baby in every frame, which is kind of a drag often.

Here's a piece of analysis from slashfilm.com. So the McGuffin for the Mandalorian might be a baby. And some photos may even support that concept. Furthermore, the importance of the baby may also have surfaced online, making Star Wars points out the previous rumor they had heard in which the series would focus on restoring the planet Mandelor, what exactly that means remains to be seen. But perhaps it's possible that this baby

could be the key to restoring the once great civilization of warriors. Can I just pitch you a version of it that you would suddenly do a 180 on? What if Nick Nolte is CGIing the baby? Like, he's the Irishman? What if it's like, it's like this, yes, this extreme Irishman What if it's like CGI baby Groot? Okay. But it's Nick Nolte.

So it's the Benjamin Button Nick Nulte, but is it still Nick Nulte's current voice? Or any Nick Nolty voice? And his current face on the baby. That's fucking disturbing. Well, that's what you get when you bring this up with me on a Monday. Look, man, I don't know what to tell you. They are going to play it safe. Yeah.

This is Disney. This is Star Wars. And not only is it Disney and Star Wars bruised as they are from this weird less cycle they went through with solo and then, you know, the episode eight pushback. Last year. Yes. The redidding. I only go by episode numbers.

Sorry. Sorry. That's the real heads on Reddit. But just to say, this is also the premier offering of a brand new TV service, which is kind of the first volley in Disney's 22nd century strategy, right? So putting a baby makes sense because they are literally going to be babying this entire process, which doesn't always result in good work. To your point, though, your very first point, I feel like once again, we are Charlie Brown and they are Lucy in the football with this.

Every time we fall for this and the listeners know how credulous we are here. When, you know, when Rogue One is pitched as the dirty dozen in space or a war movie or whatever, and you're like, and even you began this conversation by saying, you know, we always want it to be, a grown-up thing, even though there's some stuff for kids in there. I googled The Mandalorian, and what Google offered me was, The Mandalorian is an upcoming American space opera. G-TFO, internet. Okay?

Like, everyone is adding this grandeur to it, which, frankly, if the last few years have taught us anything, what gave Star Wars grandeur was the first movie, the score, and the fact that there were only six of them in 40 years. Yeah. It's commerce, baby. and so when you're talking about how are there things for kids in this stuff they're literally putting a baby

in every shot of this show and you're like, well, maybe it's Roshaman if you squint. It's fucking Star Wars. Well, I can be upset. Thank you next. Yeah. The reason why I also was bringing that up is because there was just

the news that happened last week of Daredevil getting canceled on Netflix. And likely being revived on Disney Plus. Can I just put on my Hollywood Fixer hat? Sure, man. blind superhero is good. Should have had more baby. I mean, a blind lawyer taking care of a baby in Hell's Kitchen, New York?

Yeah. Come on. It's gold. What's Greg Evigan doing? Yeah, that was interesting, but also, I mean, interesting, but also not. Like, look, I went on a Chris Ryan-esque emotional tangent last week about Aquaman. Oh, yeah, that's right. There was no floor to that. There was no ceiling.

There was no structure. Sure. I just had a feeling, and I tried it out on Mike. Didn't feel great. But there was. See, I thought it was good, but I don't know if I knew how to react in the moment. But the gist of what I was trying to say was, it felt to me looking at these billboards, like the logical endpoint of this era of culture where things exist for reasons that have truly nothing to do with the creative. Which isn't to say that people don't pour their bloodswed tears and imagination into trying to bring them up to creative code. people worked really hard on these shows, and they should be acknowledged for that. But if you look at the Marvel shows on Netflix from the way they were heralded when they were announced

and the way they were cast and presented to us at the beginning to the weird nether space that they exist in now, the writing was on the wall, right? I mean, a few years ago when this was announced, this was huge news that they were going to be developing not just four individual TV series based on, not Marvel's most popular characters, but historically some of their more grittier ones, yeah.

And historically some of their most beloved. and creatively exciting characters. Some of the best work in comics was done on these characters because they were kind of off to the side. And here was Netflix not only agreeing to bankroll shows based on obscure characters like Jessica Jones and Iron Fist, but we're going to make them. We're going to make four seasons of each, one season of each of them,

plus a Defender show. It was going to be the MCU, but on television. It all felt very ambitious, sky's the limit. And then Daredevil was pretty good. Jessica Jones was slightly more than pretty good. Luke Cage was pretty good, Iron Fist was terrible, the Defenders, you lost me. And very quickly, it became clear that it wasn't about the Marvel team's creative opportunity on Netflix

because they never connected them really in any way to the films. And as we learned later with the Kevin Feigey and Mike Pohlmutter divide that the Marvel TV arm and the Marvel movie arm kind of hated each other or in completely separate entities. This was really about, much like the way Apple is now, the press release business. This was about Netflix filling hours, making a big splash, and showing it was serious about playing with the big boys. At this point, just a few short years later, everything's changed. Creatively, those shows didn't need to exist or they didn't need to exist

at 12, 13 episodes per season. Netflix is the big boy. Doesn't need to prove it to anyone, and everyone is retrenching in terms of taking back their own content. So it's- Netflix has all that fuck-you-buster Scruggs money, so they don't need anything to do with Daredevil. I mean, there's a version of this world where Netflix feels like it is a creative space for them to continue to populate. But once Disney was going to make its own service, everybody knew. Right? They're going to take their toys back. And then the bigger fuck you is Marvel saying, yeah, we're going to make our own stories for TV now, but we're going to have Loki in them.

We're going to have our movie stars in them. Yeah, we're actually going to call in all these, like, there's something in Tom Hiddleston's contract in like a 37-foot note that's. like, by the way, we might one day put you on TV. RIP in humans, high. Like, this is the direction things are going in. So, yeah, I mean, did you, people said that the third season of Daredevil was pretty good. You know, my reaction to Daredevil, I liked the first season of Daredevil a lot.

I like the first season of Jessica Jones. I think that what happens when those stories get told on television, though, at this point, in my personal experience, is that they basically, like, get drawn closer to comic books and the experience of reading comic books, which is kind of like, I can go on Jags where I read them a lot, and then I can just forget that they exist for a year. And the shows themselves, I think, you can't eventize something that you're going to try and pump out pretty regularly.

I agree. And I think that's what Marvel does so well, is that they've, MCU's sort of figured out, we're going to put four of these out a year, we're going to have one that's massive, and then we're going to have a couple that we're building up, and we're going to try and make it feel like you have these four national holidays, when a Marvel movie comes out.

You can't really do that with 50 hours of Marvel TV a year. Here's the thing that I'm hopeful for. This would get me back on board and get me optimistic in a big way. They announced Daredevil was not continuing on Netflix. Marvel was very clear in its press release to say that Daredevil's adventures will continue in some form or another. What would be cool, and actually fitting for these characters, if they use this opportunity to rethink what it would mean to do a TV show and do a TV show with these characters. I mean is...

I just do a three-episode or a four-episode run or something like that. Well, what I mean is, particularly Daredevil. Daredevil is a character that really doesn't make any sense as I'm going to read 500 issues of Daredevil, and every week some another villain is going to show up. Because Daredevil is this super emo, dramatic character where everything is always life or death. And because of that, Daredevil has been a great vessel for some terrific creators over the years to do their version of Daredevil. Yeah. Frank Miller is obviously the most cast the biggest shadow, but, um, Brian Bendis and Alex Malib did a great run.

And then Mark Wade and Chris Sam needed a run recently. There was the complete polar opposite of the darkness that had come before. They did a very bright pop daredevil that was really cool. So look, everything is just content now. So why couldn't you do, whenever appropriate, every year, every other year, every three years, an eight-episode show with Charlie Cox, with this world, but you change the light, you change the context, you change the creators to tell a daredevil story. that fills the content need.

And honestly, it's not that different than making 13 episodes every year. I'm sure Crystal Rino still wants to do Jessica Jones. Do a miniseries whenever you want it. It's like she has a movie deal. That would be the ideal version of it, but if Disney's starting their own

over-the-top service, they're going to want to build up a library. It's true, but the thing that makes me hopeful about that is the fact that they're announcing it with these splashy Scarlet Witch series and Loki series or whatever. those are not going to be, no matter how they, no matter how much they buster scrugs them

and pretend these are regular TV shows, these are going to be extremely limited, quote-unquote, event series, because Tom Hiddleston is not going to agree to do 13 episodes a year or four or five years. We're shooting like seven or eight months a year. He's clearly kept the door open. It's a great paycheck and a lot of fun for him.

I just mean that I just hope that Kevin Fagie's team has been very, very smart about how culture has changed and how to market changing culture and how to master comic book enthusiasm and energy on a large global level. I am, the headline, the only headline I'm trying to impart here is I am very happy when the people who are not just making TV,

but the people who are marketing it and paying for it are willing to just admit that it's over, like the old way is over. Yes. We're just making stuff now when we feel like making it, and that's fine. And that fills the bucket of content just as reliably. Maybe, okay, I should rephrase it.

Not as reliably, but it feels like that. it, you know, and I think that's a better way to fill it. That's one headline. What's your headline? HBO orders the outsider drama series based on Stephen King novel starring Bendelson from Jason Bateman, and it's written by Richard Price. Did you Incept this project? If this show needs subjects for medical testing, I'm available.

Can we just take one step back and say, if any one of these pieces of news was the only piece of news, you would be hype a.F. Yes. Yeah. So this is a best-selling Stephen King novel. It is going to be written entirely or written by Richard Price. I mean, come on. And Jack Bender from Mr. Mercedes, but is also, we know from Lost, is working on it. A great directing producer from Lost.

Jason Bateman is going to direct the first two episodes and May guest star. It is about a seemingly straightforward investigation into the gruesome murder of a local boy leads a seasoned cop and an unorthodox investigator to question everything they believe to be real as an insidious supernatural force edges its way to the case. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

I mean, 10 episode limited series, I'm pretty... Richard Price and Supernatural is kind of interesting combo. Now that being said, HBO said they announce a lot of stuff that it takes a minute to get to the screen. Here's what I would take from this announcement once you're done picking the juiciest cuts of the bone.

Here's the gristle that I see it. Your man, Rich Stanky, cannot believe that's really his name but I love saying it when AT&T took over Warner Media including HBO made a big deal about saying we have to compete now

we cannot just be this crown jewel of prestige in Manhattan we need to program for the whole country and we need to program for people on their cell phones and everyone everywhere and compete with the biggest names like Netflix and Amazon

that means the vaunted HBO production pipeline, which is incredibly long and incredibly narrow, needs to get a lot bigger. They're going to put more shows into production. I believe this, did this suggest a production commitment in the press release? It certainly seems to. The other aspect of it is, is that this is a deal with MRC, Media Rights Capital, who made House of Cards, and I assume make Ozark, too, because of the Jason Bayon connection.

Yes, it's the second collaboration between the two. House of Cards from Media Rights Capital was a big pitch that, Netflix blew everyone out of the water with to make their mark on the industry and gave it a two-year commitment and basically doubled whatever HBO and the other people who were bidding on it were bidding on it. But they were bidding on it. It seemed for a while that HBO, because they had a limited production pipeline, when they buy outside of their company, which they do. But when they buy outside of the company, that was more noteworthy. I think this is a nod towards the way things are going. Yeah, this is more like what Netflix and Amazon have been doing buying these different, like buying bodyguard. or buying that Hugh Grant Ben Whishaw Show, I can't remember what it was called.

Well, not necessarily because Bodyguard is an international production or co-production. What I mean is, like, I'll use eye statements like I was taught in my freshman dorm. The Briar Patch Pilot comes from Universal Cable Productions is the studio. USA is the network. Both are owned by Comcast NBC Universal.

Yes. So it's buying in-house. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When HBO buys from, like, the leftovers, came from Warner Brothers, for example, which was sort of was in the family, so to speak. And I am doing this in the broadest possible terms.

I know there are probably fiduciary details that I'm blowing. This just seems to me to be a really good opportunity for them because they are open for business, which is what clearly they're indicating. And they have some people here who have worked for them before, like Price, who's worked on the dues and worked on the wire and worked on the night of. And that's why I'm that, yeah, that's why I elaborately pointed to you on an auditory medium that no one could pick up on. Richard Price is one of their guys.

Yeah. Richard Price is classy, is older HBO. and bridges the gap. Kind of like the fact that this sounds like the night of, but with a supernatural twist. I love talking about speculative projects when they are like this, when we are both legitimately excited for the content,

but they are also interesting in terms of the business or landscape. We're going to get to Romanoffs and Little Drummer Girl, but let's just take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and we'll be right back. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Carnival Cruises. If you're listening to us, you probably like to laugh. Maybe not at this show, but as a general activity, that's probably a safe bag. Yeah, that's right. You probably also like stand-up comedy, watching movies on really big screens.

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A million seems like a lot. It does. I may have rounded up, but it's probably something close to that number. You know, they've also got options for any kind of group, whatever you're into. Families with children, like Chris is super into that. Couples, Bachelorette parties. Fans of The Bachelorette? Something for everyone.

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that's sonos, s onos.com. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Microsoft Surface. Let's talk about something super exciting, like the newest member of the Microsoft Surface family, the Surface Pro 6. Now faster and more powerful than ever before, so you can get more done, whether it's from your office, at the airport, or on your couch. You can take the keyboard off and draw on it easily or snap it back on and type on it like a laptop

with up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and the new 8th-gen Intel Core processor. You can work how you want to for as long as you want to, wherever work takes you. All right, we're back. Before we get into talking about the Romanoff's very late and little drummer girl right on time, I just want to mention that we have a bunch of year-end TV content, You're in content's going up all week on The Ringer.com, but today was TV Day. So Allison and I did a top 10 list for the best shows of the year. And then Andrew and Miles did a really excellent best episodes of the year list that I thought was quite creative.

And reminded me of a couple of things that I had forgotten about, like the Brendan Fraser centric episode of Trust. Oh, that was so good. And the Sissy SpaceX-centric episode of Castle Rock. So there's a bunch of really good nuggets in Andrew and Miles's list. Allison and I did a list of the top 10 shows. Do you have any questions for me about the list? How are you? I'm fine.

It was actually a very easy process. How many of the shows that you chose involved babies? In peril or just babies, just hanging out. Have you seen the queer eye with the baby? Remember how upset you were when my main takeaway from widows was that finally a hoist movie with concern about child care? Yeah, I wasn't upset. I thought that was a good detail. You were pissed.

I don't have anything. against kids. I just think they are too regularly used to play on people's heartstrings. Speaking of, I have to go early, and I'll let me tell you why. It started with sniffles, but I'm afraid, I am curious how you did it this year, because we should probably also say that we each did our own individual top ten lists, and with our, we can say this, right? Next week, are we running this? I think so. We had our annual Best and TV episode of the Watch with friend slash nemesis, Sam S. Mail. We recorded it.

A lot of good content. One part Yoda, one part Mandalorian. I don't want to over promise here, but Sam thinks we recorded the greatest episode of the watch in history. He really does, huh? He really does. Kaya, do you think it was a good episode?

It was great. Sam also is pretty sure Kaya doesn't listen to the watch. That was his other takeaway, with good reason. I mean, she listens to it live. Is she listening, though? She's definitely listening. She's here and doing a great job. I promise I'm listening.

I just feel like there are moments when I can feel the energy from the other half of the room being like, hey. That's me. That's not a guy. That's fair. Anyway, so we did all that with our lists. And I was curious about the list that you made with Allison because it is a, there was a lot of good stuff this year. I think there was not a lot of great stuff this year. But there was just a lot of stuff.

And my main, my number one question was the thought process behind including non-scripted shows in the top 10 list, which has always been a bugger. go-a-boo of mine. So Allison and I were really kind of on the same page for this. So it wasn't that hard to come up with the 10. I think we both had like a long list of about 15 or 20, and then there was a bunch in that 15 or 20 that we both were aware, were kind of personal picks rather than consensus sort of choices. What are the examples for you guys? I would say like, McMafia and collateral for me and maybe like BoJack for her or something like that. where we were like, I would really, like,

in my own personal top 10, probably push these towards there. Narcos for me was one, you know, but for Allison and I, I think we both knew

that we had like five or six that we both felt very strongly about, and those happened to overlap. And then we kind of divided the last four between the two of us as like some more personal picks. Yeah. So I can just go through the list really quickly.

This is on the ringer.com today and you can find it there along with Andrew and Miles' best episodes list, but we did Killing Eve number one. succession number two Atlanta number three Little drummer girl number four I mean that's a pretty

dynamite top four that by the way may contain the same top four as me yeah in a different order I think that that's a really good top four then you have the good fight number five which is something that Allison and I both love

Barry number six salt fat acid heat number seven now is that you? That's Allison okay that's Allison although I do enjoy that show I mean I'm very excited to watch that show yeah Better Call Saul number eight Howard's End number nine

and queer eye number 10 I'm just saying like if I known if we if I allowed those rules the Queensbury rules or whatever Like anything is that's on TV If you go in here Top Chef Jr. Of course it would be super high

You should feel free to do so though It combines two of your passions Children and cooking Yes I like cooking But imagine cooking With the peril raised up higher Quick digression

Children are involved. In a crock pot. Is it normal for chicken to be like super wet? Super wet? Yeah, like I just, I made a chicken, a garlic parmesan chicken last night in a crock pot. And it just is like... Do you do a lot of crock pot cooking?

It's like the fourth time... Are you saying like an instant pot or slow cooker? Slow cooker. Okay. Yeah, not the instapot. I've never done slow cooker, instant pot stuff. You just cut up some potatoes,

throw in some the chicken breasts that you sear. and then after six hours I was like this is soaking wet. Like falling off the bone? To be fair, my wife did put a little bit of vegetable stock in there? Should we put like falling off the bone? Yeah, it's falling off the bone. But like, you know how something can get so damp it can kind of lose its taste?

Was soupy? Oh. Soft. First of all, I'm a little concerned about your health. Second, the only thing that would make this story more exciting is if there was just a three-year-old child unattended in the corner of your kitchen. If the baby was in the Instapot. There's just baby just crying.

Anyway, I think you put too much liquid in the pot. Okay, that is what I kind of felt, but my wife and I both were like, these potatoes look like they're just going to be like tennis balls. Should I visit her in the hospital immediately after we record, or should I call first? That's right. Anyway, TV can be anything you wanted to be. I wanted to put Survivor on this list.

Survivor is having an astonishing season this season. But, you know, I was really happy with this list, and it was a really nice moment where you can kind of like there is a little bit of consensus this year. I agree with you that maybe there aren't two or three knock down, drag out masterpieces that we're going to remember for 30 years. But I think that there were some really, really, really great TV.

And I thought it was cool that we kind of settled on. It can be boring to have everybody have the same five picks, but I think it does suggest that there's maybe more consensus out there than we sometimes give it credit for. I think the other thing, and this came up a lot in our conversation with Sam, so I won't step on it. But what is exciting about this list for me and about my own list and TV is that it does feel like, for the most part, we're picking shows that are on the up, that are ascending shows. Yeah, for sure.

This isn't, there were a couple years when I was making list for Granland, certainly, and even when we were just doing this the last few years, there were legacy spots. We were holding spots for shows that legitimately were still great, whether they were Game of Thrones or Veep, things that just were of a very high level. those shows didn't air this year, those particular shows that I just mentioned. But in general, you know, there's a very good chance that Barry's and Killing Eve's best, and Succession's best days are ahead of them. Certainly, I wouldn't bet against Atlanta either. It's funny. I mean, the Good Fight is a, from what I understand, apparently is a fresh version of what had

been a long-running show or iteration of it. And Better Call Saul is just its own perfect little Joe Box. I would actually pair Good Fight and Better Call Saul as just like awarding TV excellence. It's not necessarily going to change the zeitgeist And it's hard to imagine it minting a new star Although I hope Ray Sehorne becomes one But both of those shows just are excellent at what they do On a level that not enough television is

The dude who plays Lalo feels like a star to me too I'm sure he's worked a lot too But he really popped on the show I think that we should segue And I'm going to try to do this But I think it's relevant to Talking about the Year and TV list Which is to try to wrap our arms

to some degree around Little Drummer Girl a show that we have now finished and we're going to talk about and that we adored and the Romanoffs a show that we struggled with that has now finished airing

that I feel like we have mixed feelings about. I'll say this. Both are extremely 2018 TV. A minute ago you said TV is anything you want it to be. It's not so much

that it's hard to imagine these two shows existing in the same televised universe on our endless buffet of choices because that is possible. It's more that try explaining either of these projects to anyone, let alone ourselves,

not 10 years ago, set with the beginning of Granite seven years ago. It's just almost impossible to understand. Little drummer girl being this just masterful, not quite a movie, but with all of the details and the sumptuous production design and performance and artistry

that I associate with movies and with cinema and a finite thing, I think, hopefully, and with good reason. And the Romanoffs, which just feels like if the moment, this prestige moment that we had turned into a prestige hour and then a prestige week, and then a month, this is like, sorry, this is going to be

a thing that this is going to hit two things you don't like cartoons and kids. But you remember, there was a Pixar movie called Wally, and the opening of it was just like the end stage of humanity just flowing. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, and I say this with respect, the Romanoffs feels like the bloated end stage of prestige TV to me in that I cannot believe he got away with it. I'm so glad that he did,

but it didn't result in something that I would either categorize as TV or even like must see. Full stop. Yeah. It's his, uh, yeah, I was going to say it's his amnesiac, but I actually kind of liked that album by Radiohead. It's the idea that he like kind of like, metaphorically, of course, went off into the desert and took psychedelics for six years and then made like this triple album. And everybody was like, hey, man, are you okay? Like, that's how I felt when I was watching it. I was just like, it was like the equivalent of kind of a flex, but okay, like the entire show. See, I disagree with that analogy because psychedelics suggest that he stepped back and came back with visions.

And what this felt like to me was imagine a television career as Mount Everest. And at the bottom, there's teeming hordes and it's like, you know, even before base camp, you're just in, you're just, here you are, you're in Nepal. There are people everywhere. Street vendors, it's loud, clattering, and you find people are going to help you. And you need them to help you. start your scent and only certain people make it with you to the first stop and the second stop and they're helping you and they're pushing you along the way and they're giving you oxygen or water

showing you how it's done and then by the time you've reached you've past the cloud line and you're at the very top and oxygen is thin and you look around and there is nobody left to tell you what to do or what they think of what you do yeah that's what the show feels like to me that's a great imagery thank you do you think of that right now yes wow yes and i'm an improv master but you know This was what this is the end result of what happened. So, okay, look, we just decided, I guess we're going to talk Romanoff's first, and then stick around if you have watched Little Drummer Girl to the end, because we'll talk about the end.

You definitely haven't watched Romanovs to the end. No, I haven't. Nobody has. Nobody has, I don't think. And I, this is the end result of what happens when you empower Auturist creators pass the point of checks and balances, which is fine, by the way. So is Twin Peaks the return, you know, and I think that's a masterpiece. Yes, so is Alfonso Coron's Roma

And to some extent, I mean, I think that little drummer girl does Yeah Well, actually, I bet they have like way more checks and balance I am not here to have my, even though I'm negative about a bunch of the aspects of the show I'm not here to say take this opportunities away from him or from people like him Sure Just saying this is the high stakes Baccarat table you're playing at Where you either win big or you end up with this

Honestly, bizarre series So to take the full step back, this was pitched as a kind of, you know, tonally serialized maybe or very lightly serialized set of connecting short stories essentially. It felt very much like a collection of short stories. Where the only abiding conceit is that a character, multiple characters, claim to be descendants of the Romanoff's the last ruling family of Tsarist Russia. Am I getting that right? and really after having seen it,

it just seems like an exercise, as you said, in short stories. There were some topics that interested Matthew Weiner, particularly there were some locations that interested him that got a lot more interesting once he saw the budget numbers Amazon was willing to give him, probably. And he went off and did it. And I say this with great affection that this, if you ever saw like late period Woody Allen films

and you were like, if only there were eight more hours of this vote, vibe. Yeah. Boy, do I have a TV show for you. Yeah. That's the thing that I could not get out of my mind when I was watching it. The flip side of that is, look, one of the hallmarks of, and look, we are having a conversation,

we're not having a political conversation. I hope that's okay with people about the artistic merits of Woody Allen or Matthew Weiner, who also was accused of sexual misconduct by Cater Gordon. That's an issue we've talked about on this podcast, and maybe we will again. But I just wanted to say that, like, one of the hallmarks of the Romanoff's and the last 30 years of Woody Allen movies is they're populated by incredibly bourgeois people having conversations about incredibly enormous yet somehow still abstract notions, the nature of humanity of what we owe each other of love, affection, childhood, marriage, sex, all of it, having conversations

usually like at Bergdorf Goodman's or whatever. This show goes to places in each episode. It's about stuff. Yeah, I skimmed through a couple and found one that I quite liked a bunch. Two, that I liked. I really enjoyed House of Special Purpose, the Christine Hendricks one, and I really enjoyed End of the Line, which starts Jay Ferguson and Catherine Hahn. So let's...

The other ones I felt, honestly, like, itchy watching and wanted to, like, turn off. Yes, I was... I'll call attention to the Amanda Pete episode, the name of which I don't remember. I mean, I found it... I watched it. I found it very hard to watch. It doesn't help that these episodes are, like, on average, like, 85. five minutes long

and feel like it. But they're sumptuous and they're beautiful with great actors. End of the line was the one that interested me the most also.

Also, I would say that deep in end of the line, we don't even have to get it. I think the way you're drawing pulling these two shows together is really interesting because it's when it's when tourism goes right

and way tourism goes wrong. And Little drummer girl, they allowed Park Chandow to execute a very specific vision with material that a lot of people feel a lot of either intellectual or actual financial ownership over. And in the Romanoffs,

this is entirely Matthew Weiner's creation. I mean, he directed every episode. He has the screenwriting credit on everyone, although there's co-writers on them. No, he had no credit on end of the line. I mean, he collaborated with his Mad Men crew. So the M. Adipede episode is credited to Semichelis, who is a playwright who was on many seasons of Mad Men,

the Jacques Maton's the married couple whose experiences with international adoption and formed the plot, Benderline, were the only credited writers of that episode. Weiner definitely did not put his name on those. I don't know whether that's in response to... The controversy from Mad Men's where he was crediting himself as the single writer,

even though, so there were people who were also working on. More than that, it's that he... Traditionally, showrunners have their hand in every episode of everything, often rewriting things substantially. His feeling was, and he was upfront about this, that if he felt that he wrote or rewrote more than 50% of a script, he would put his name on it.

Yeah. And then the comparison I often used was Dan Harmon on community, very different person, a very different show, I think got credited, got sole credit, or even just writing credit, for two episodes out of the 60 plus they made. Yeah. Clearly he did more than that. Yeah. That was his way.

That was his style of doing it. Anyway. I would say the end of the line, the one thing I wanted to say about end of the line, and it comes very deep. It's like watching, like, you know, you have to watch the entire. baseball playoffs and I told you there was like three good innings, you know? But deep in the end of the line is a scene between Catherine Hahn and Jay Ferguson that is why Matthew Weiner is really good writer. It's this argument that these two characters have

about whether or not they're going to adopt this Russian baby. And it has that incredible facility with intimate moments between two people that turn into, that are able to exist in that room, just the two of them, fighting or, or, trying to get along or whatever the case may be, but feels much, much bigger. And he was really good at that on Madman. He was really good at having a Don and Peggy conversation that was just electric right there on the screen

and then felt like the ripple effects were going out throughout history, out throughout sociocultural divides. And I did feel that way with the end of the line. You know, it's kind of a slog. It's way too long. But it's got the two best performances I thought in the whole show that I saw. And I got what it was about. Like, it felt like a very tight short story.

You know what I mean? It made sense to me. It also went there. And when I say went there, I mean, this show was shot on location to glorious effect. I mean, you could feel in the Amanda Pete episode, it's shot just blatantly on the streets of the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And that definitely feels like a kind of a wonderful, fuck you, because Mad Men, you know, shot in L.A. on soundstages and they never went outside. Yeah. the end of the line episode is shot in the deepest, darkest cold of Romanian winter, doubling for Vladivostok in Russia.

And they're there. And Annette Mahendrew, who's wonderful in the Americans, is pretty wonderful in this episode, too. It's very evocative of place, which is really important. But I was just going to say to your other point, and I should also put it at the top here, so Jay Ferguson is the star of this episode. Jay Ferguson is one of the stars of prior patch, despite his avowed Cowboys fandom. He is otherwise a wonderful guy. It's a miracle that I'm even complimenting him. Once I found that out about him, I was just like...

The things that he has done and said to me... It's too bad I have to fry Breyer Patch if I ever see it. I informed him that should his team continue to do well, his character will be kicked into the sun in the upcoming episode. He seems okay with that. So obviously, I'm biased about that, and I think he just shows what a tremendous actor he is in this episode. But I wonder, people...

And this is a David Chase syndrome, too, and it's interesting to me that Winer and David Chase worked together so well in The Sopranos. And I believe he has either said or people have implied that that's what the money is for speech. People look at that and they think of like the writers working for Winer being the Peggy and Winer being the Don Draper. I believe that when Winer wrote it, and Winer wrote Madman, I think he has said this. He has often felt more akin to Peggy and that David Chase is Don Draper to him. And that's what that episode was about.

But anyway, both of them kind of, both them made one of the great television shows of all time. each and both kind of struggle with their relationship to the medium and want to shake free of it. Weiner's written a novel. He's directed films. He made this show, which is kind of anti-old TV. And I think partly because the other thing they have in common, in addition to their talent, is they both came up in a more frustrating TV atmosphere. Chase famously worked on like Colchack, The Nightstocks. Sure. He hosted all these years in the trenches. Winer was on staff on CBS sitcoms like Becker. But I do think that what we're seeing with this show is when you decouple key parts of television from other parts,

what do you have? Meaning what you talked about the strength of madmen and the arguments in madmen being part of history, but they were also part of the show's internal history. And there was an office comedy happening,

and there was week-to-week serialized storyline so that when they then stepped back and suddenly, oh, shit, they're actually talking about women's lib, or they're actually talking about race relations or power in a deep way that is global and universal. It was in concert with the macro. Whereas this is a show,

without any serialized momentum, I mean, John Slattery nominally appearing twice as the same person doesn't count, it's just macro. Yeah. And it doesn't land on the emotional level

that it would have had we been following, say, those characters from end of the line before their story and after. Do you think there's Romanov season two coming? I thought that that was announced.

It was? I wasn't announced. I thought that there was a suggestion that there might be one. Now, I didn't watch the last episode. Is there a cliffhanger? I haven't seen the last episode either. What if there was a cliffhanger?

The Romanoff's expanded universe. Let's do drummer girl really fast. I'd love to. So I was very curious because I know that we'd sort of done our homage to this show based on the first three episodes. And then the second three episodes are, I mean, in some ways, like, kind of like even more dialed into like my personal interests. Because when Charles Dance shows up. Oh, my God. Charles Dance, many of you know from Game of Thrones, is an incredible British actor, shows up as like an MI-5.

guy. A very lacaree figure. Yes, and who is essentially playing, you know, puppet master on the puppet masters in these last couple episodes. When those moments between him and Michael Shannon are happening, I was like, if you guys want to take, you guys want to make Romanoffs out of these

two fucking guys, if you want nine hours of my time for just this conversation, by all means. What if they had a rip court? What if at the end of the series, Michael Shannon turns to camera and like that famous documentary about the joke, it just goes, the Romanoffs. And it's all connected.

That's right. It's all connected. What is Charles Dance's line that I have to imagine is from the book where he's basically like, it's fine if you want to piss on my leg and say that it's raining, but don't like take a giant like Chris's crock pot dump on my leg and not even have the courtesy to give me the weather report? I mean, come on. Yeah.

What did you think of the sort of, I think that's the thing that people had, people probably had like an issue with like the premise, you know, that it was a little bit convoluted or that it was difficult to understand, like, why do they have to do this public kind of performance? It's extremely cerebral. Yeah. This is a novel, and it played in some ways as a novel on TV because it is asking you to buy in, which is why it is so well suited to a visionary director who's controlling the color scheme of every frame of every moment. Yeah.

Because you have to buy in. You have to just accept that this is an exercise in a way, and the emotion is going to come, in some ways it's going to come from it, that, okay, this is all theater. And we have to understand that this is all theater and this is all performance. So you can't really get caught up. I mean, at the end, did I have a moment where I was like, why would the English let them blow up a university to prove a point? Right. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of a tough sell if you go down that road.

But look, again, you've bought a ticket and you're on the ride and I hope you've enjoyed it. Like, you've also previously been okay with the fact that when Charlie and Gaddi consummate their relationship, I believe one of their heads comes out of the other one's mouth. I mean, you know, that's pretty good. I guess that was a pretty good time for them, if that's what was happening. I found the second half of this show mesmerizing. I just thought all the Khalil stuff was just mesmerizing. Harif Gattas is the actor. Tremendous.

I also want to shout out the guy who plays the military commander in Lebanon, who just creates an entire character in performance by staring at Lawrence Pugh. The stillness is so outstanding. I mean, look, do I have questions about what you can really do in a month? Because for a month, I've forgotten to buy new dish soap for my whole. home. In a month, she was turned into a credible international terrorist. I mean, you got to respect the accelerated coursework. You know what I mean? You got to respect the hustle on that. Also, side question that came out of this, I love the team. I loved the Mossad. Mrs. Bach team,

just all the small characters that made full characters out of the piecemeal that they were given to work with. Seed and popsicles and stuff. But they spent a lot of time together. Now, I know that when you guys were starting up the ringer, it was like just four of you and Bill and you were in a house. But, like, presumably you chose a house and not a camper van for a reason. You know what I mean? Yes. They probably would have been difficult if we were working out of a van, but it was the 70s. But what if your job, I know, again, it was the 70s, you didn't have, like, websites to hit refresh on.

But if your job was to be in a van with these people and just watch a blinking light on a screen for a month. Yeah. I mean, that would get raw real fast. It really would. I'm making jokes when I just want to say, I do think this show is a masterpiece because in its construction and its execution start to finish, it was only ever one thing. And sometimes in this era of event series, I've found shows begin with a way that make you feel like, oh, this is as good as movies can be, this is trying a different type of storytelling. And then you feel it fritter away. You feel the control fritter away, whether maybe one person didn't direct the whole thing.

Right. Or maybe there was mixed messages as to what they were doing, what they were adapting. Maybe you feel the show start to hedge its bets. Oh, maybe we could turn this into a second season if we do X, Y, or Z. This was a completely controlled exercise from beginning to end in a way that felt so exciting to be a part of. There are moments that, again, I imagine come from the La Care, but are played so well on screen. In the end game, at the very end, when Theliel notices the Milkman hasn't been there. And Charlie's like offering possibilities.

She's trying to be like, yeah, well, what if he's late? And he turns to her without any other reaction, says, why are you trying to comfort me? That is a level of psychological insight that is Lecari. That's pure Lecary. How human beings act. And we've seen that happen. We've probably done this in our own lives. But does have it spelled out and then performed it a way that makes you think about how you are with people?

With those stakes. But with those stakes? It's pretty thrilling. Yeah, the whole battery thing is just like, tell me, Gotti. We're going to wrap it up there. Has she turned? Has she turned? And we'll be back on Thursday to talk about marvelous Mrs. Maisel.

It's Maisel season. Thanks for coming by, Andy. I appreciate your presence. You know, I was glad I made time today. But if you could talk to my people about Thursday, before you just announce it on the mic next time, I'd appreciate that. ICAL is your friend, Branskys. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Carnival Cruises.

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Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Sonos Meet Sonos Beam, the smart compact soundbar for your TV. beam lets you fill the room with rich sounds of everything you love from music and radio to movies TV podcasts and more this holiday season I shall commence my annual viewing of diehard and I cannot wait to watch the Nakatomi Plaza come to life and I suppose there's quite a bit of death in it but the holiday season is alive in the Nakatomi Plaza and it's going to come

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