The Watch - The Penultimate Episode of ‘White Lotus’ S2 and the Premiere of ‘Slow Horses’ Season 2

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the news that the combined streaming service for HBO Max and Discovery+ might just be called “Max” (1:00). Then they talk about the penultimate episode of ‘White Lotus��� Season 2 and how it’s fine that we’re not any closer to knowing who will be murdered (12:46), before talking about the premiere of the second season of ‘Slow Horses’ (42:06). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, the podcast version of singing forever blowing bubbles in Palermo. It's Andy Greenwald! I don't even know what to make of that. That was a great little shoutout for West Ham United,

a Premier League team in the Barclays Premier League. No free ads for Barclays, but that's how you're supposed to refer to it. That's fine. That's what I do because, Chris, okay, we're going to talk White Lotus. We're going to talk slow horses. Happy Monday.

Chris, is your favorite time on Earth? every four years when everyone you know suddenly becomes a soccer expert? Because I'm like, as you know, devoted fan of the French national team will surprise no one. Definitely Googling, is Paul Pogba still playing soccer at 7.15 a.m. yesterday so I could text you something about the back line. You must get a lot of this. I get a fair amount, but it's all, you know, it's like, I'm not a gatekeeper. It's like everybody's allowed to enjoy. enjoy the beautiful game, you know, yoga, Benito and all that. Like, I'm happy to see people, you know, Bill's tactical acumen comes out every four years.

Prongs. Yeah, it's right. I forget, I've always forget that you're like a big Les Blu guy. And so then you're just like, my dude, Marcus Taram. And I'm just like, where the fuck have you been? Son of my son of the legend, Lillian Taram, who made me fall in love. That's kind of like how when you find out what it's like the 20th anniversary of Waui Zowie, you know, I'm just like, man, I'm aging is when you find out Marcus Teram's,

Lulian Taram's son is on the French national team. Andy, it's great to see you. So let me tell you a little bit about myself today. I have three podcasts, including this one. And because I trust you as a scene partner, as a creative partner and as a best friend, I just didn't prepare for this podcast. I know what we're going to talk about.

But usually I have notes, I have numbers, I have stats, I have conversation starters. tears. Here's I'm just going to tell you a little anecdote. So you're going to be the, let's say, let's call it the Andy of this podcast. I'm going to tell you a story. Last night, lovely, lovely evening. Made some tacos. Got it, went to the living room. Christmas trees lit up. Wonderful. The nice lamp is on. You know, like, we have a kind of like, we have like the wall lights that are a little bit better at illuminating and then helping one do read. And then there is the, like, I am in turn of the century England, like Victorian lamp that.

It doesn't really do much in terms of illuminating things, but it's gorgeous light, you know? Yeah. And so we're sitting there. My wife and I, we're having a lovely time. She's going through New Yorkers and being like, we got to get rid of these. And it's time for White Lotus. We fire up White Lotus. We have such a good time that an hour and three minute episode of White Lotus takes two hours.

Because we keep hitting pause to chat about hotels and travel and live. love and everything in between. And then, you know, they had the ad for The Last of Us, which is coming on in the early next year. And then, you know, Successions coming back in the spring. And I was just thinking, if Uncle Joe Biden was like, C.R, I got, you got to do your part. We're all belt tightening.

And he was just like, you got to get rid of all other TV, save one network. I think I'd have a pretty satisfying life if I was just watching HBO. And I don't mean that as Blois Boys Boys, SponCon, I'm not trying to cape up for Zaz. I'm just saying, if you were just going to be like, hey, on Sundays you get to watch your shows,

you know, I would be pretty happy watching those, like, what they have to offer. We had a lovely night. Here's the thing that Chris Ryan loves, love. It's why you also liked Interstellar,

by the way. I'm realizing it now. That's true. You know, like, you are softy at heart. And there's nothing soft about White Lotus. No, but I mean, It just sounds like it's just a beautiful tribute to domesticity and monogamy that you're pitching me right now.

You know, big stack of old magazines, homemade tacos, buttery, berry, bary linden light. Yeah. And just the two of you. You've pledged your lives together. You've pledged your troth. And now you want to just expand the circle a little bit with your chosen television service. That's right. Which apparently, according to news reports, is just going to be rebranded as Max.

And you know what? That's fine. Now, I don't like the fact that I'm not going to be able to say HBO anymore. And in fact, I think I will just say HBO. I will continue to say that. But apparently, when they launch this Discovery HBO joined app, it will just be called Max. It is amazing because when this is confirmed, we can talk more about it, but when has that ever stopped us? The continuing, like, outside consultant-fueled decision-making to be like, hmm,

what's valuable about the name of our service? Yeah. The absolute gold standard. McKinsey court. Yeah. It's McKinsey. The gold standard of television for the last almost half century. Or my roommate's name from college.

Like, let's go with the latter because having the idea of discovery in there, along with your HBO, is too valuable. Anyway, look, I think you're making a strong point, and I don't think it's that unnatural. I think in terms of what There's no metric for this Unless maybe we start tracking it ourselves via a sort of modified Fitbit But I look at multiple apps on my Apple TV

There are different shows that I watch in different services We talk about them on the podcast There's that one thing that you can't track Which is the enthusiasm with which you push the button In terms of I'm excited that there's something there And not just that, I'm pressing this button in anticipation of the thing that I know has arrived there. I rarely open Netflix with that.

I open Netflix to be like, I guess I'll look. Do you know what I mean? I rarely just... HBO Max is the one where I'm like, oh, it's Sunday. Oh, I miss something. It's Monday. You know what I mean? Like that is a destination app.

I think you're not wrong about that. Sure. I think you're not wrong about that. Do you think it would still work if you had the bung and then the static, the HBO kind of like iconic, legendary intro. That's not really music, but sound effect. And then it went into Chip and Joanna flipping a castle in Waco. This is exactly what I was about to say.

Exactly what I was about to say. I bet McKinsey has this data. I remain really curious about what level of inside baseball penetration has occurred in the minds of the TV consumer. And I think it works both ways. So you and I both adore Station 11. It was our number one show of last year. In the popular imagination, to the degree that the show exists, it was not like a ratings blockbuster.

It's just the best thing that was on TV last year, in our opinion. Do people think of it as an, I think people think of it as an HBO show, right? And I don't think that matters one way or another for HBO Max as a brand or HBO as a brand or Station 11. It probably burnishes Station 11. Yeah. So I asked that question to the same degree of, does it hurt your sense or the value of HBO if Station 11 and hacks are part of it as well as Chip and Joanna and Friends reruns? I don't know if it does. Like, if our understanding of HBO is a quality place to watch television, and I know I've argued against this in the past, but I'm starting to think that it's just simpler is better.

Like, maybe you had the same attitude with your tacos. I didn't even ask. But like, if the icon just said HBO, I think that my brain is evolved enough to understand. stand. That there might be a tab on there that has like home flipping shows. Right. That there's just more stuff there also. And that the tradeoff of people who are like, oh, no, no, this, I don't want the DCU touching HBO.

I think the snob mentality is less than the plus of someone who might generally not want to watch the latest David Simon miniseries about the death of the American city and instead wants to watch, uh, friends. Right. I don't see the problem. I really think that that kind of thinking that you're describing, the one that you're sort of rebelling against, would be the only time that that would get pissed off about that is if I went to my cable company and said I would like the suite of HBO channels that you guys have, HBOZ and HBO West and all the shit that we have.

And then when I was watching what I wanted was the Batman to be playing on a Thursday afternoon before a basketball game so I could watch that for 30 minutes, it was discovery shows. Like, I wouldn't want them to, like, exist on the same channel on my cable package. Yes. But I don't give a shit.

If they're all on the same streaming app, I would just prefer having one streaming app. Yeah, right. Guys, it's not working. I mean, I think everybody knows this, and I think a lot of people are getting rich and poor trying to figure this out. But this moment, hopefully we'll look back on

as, like, a weird inflection point where it's not working. It's not working. Which is a bummer. Which is a bummer because the TV is good. TV is good. We're doing our year-end show on Thursday. My long list for TV shows

of just shows that I kind of either deeply engaged with slash liked slash, you know, gave a lot of thought to. So just get them all down. 51 shows. 51 shows. That's crazy that that is.

And I'm not, and like I would say, honestly, and we're talking about this on Thursday, I would say 10 through 20 have an argument to be 1 through 10. Do you know what I mean? Like there's definitely like a class, a tier of like that's just completely separated. But I think that my 10 through 20 are pretty fucking good on any other year. Yeah, this is the year for sure or this is a year where I'm not really having it. If people are like, oh, no love for blank.

Right. I'm like, yeah, it's really good. It's really good. And it didn't make the top 10 because I like. like these other shows more, or I thought they were a little bit better. But it's really not there were only 10 good things this year. There have been years where there have been, you know, it's been more aggressive in the selection or also just easier. But I actually feel more relaxed making my top 10 this year because I'm not going to do it because I step on Thursday show,

but there are at least three shows that are already, they're in my mind as I'm talking to you, that it seems silly that they're not the top 10, but I'm just shrugging. I'm not agonizing over it because there's a lot of good stuff. It's a top 10 for a reason. So let's talk about a show that I'm sure, if not in the top 10 will be in the contention for top 10, which is White Lotus. Penultimate episode came out last night.

As I said, I'd savored every moment, every line, every line, every line, every note of a tallow disco, every sundappled body. Just a really good episode of TV. And I think when we talk about White Lotus, I struggle a little bit about separating the soap opera from the obvious, deep, sort of near-mythological underpinnings of the show,

especially with the setting and the frequent references to ancient Roman and ancient Greek, whatever, art and mythology. Antiquities. And this idea that even what we consider to be classical drama is essentially like, you cheated on me, or you can't go home again, or you lied to me. And like how little has changed over the thousands of years that we've been telling each other's stories and especially telling each other's stories in a theatrical way. What did you think of this episode?

I'm glad you started with the idea of historical context and constantly repeating mistakes or the fallibility of humans across eras, if not across luxury properties. I think this was a fascinating episode. and I think the response to it, which I have not deeply dived into, I think is also interesting in telling about where we are as TV fans and consumers. This is the penultimate episode. Almost nothing about it felt penultimity. I don't feel like we're any closer to discovering the murder mystery,

which I think is by design. And I continue to be fascinated by the way large swaths of the audience has been conditioned to watch prestige television shows. which is that there's an answer here, that there's a gotcha, that there's Reddits and theories and whatever. Now, are some of them that have,

the ones that have bubbled up even to, you know, famous Luddite since last December or me, is there validity to them? Like, Cameron doesn't really have any money.

Seems likely that the high-end gaze are not particularly high-end and are scamming. I mean, that was almost confirmed. That was confirmed in this episode. They might be, what is it,

is it house-rich when you have a house, but you have no money? Or is it house poor when you have a house, but you have no money? I think house poor would be you have a poor house, which is not related to bleak house. My favorite late Dickens. So I wonder, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some, and I had two people text me with this already being like, well, that was disappointing because answers weren't given. But that's just never been how I watched the show.

I think the thing that I was really struck by, and I think might also lend, by this episode in particular, but also speaks to, I think, my affection for this season and also why this show is constantly impressing me and also flouting expectations is that it is, unlike a lot of things,

I think it is deeply, deeply a middle-aged person's show. Not to watch. What I mean is psychologically. All of the characters in play this season know their own shortcomings, maybe with the exception of Cameron and maybe Daphne,

but I think the rest of them are aware enough in who they are in their lives that they are aware of their issues. And all of them are prisoner to them. And to me, that's evidence of people who have... That's like the 10-year anniversary. You get the 10-year chip of therapy, and you're like, I can call the plays

and I can see the game on the field, like Tony Romo in the booth. But, man, I can't get back on the field and change the outcome of the game. But my back just won't let me do it. Yeah. Or my ego or my parents. whatever, my issues won't let me do it. And I think that's really worth noting. I think it's different

than where we meet a lot of other shows and characters. Like an industry, for example, which is more written by and for young people, right? They're in the midst of discovering the rich possibilities of their problems. They are not self-aware. They are not trapped by the problems. They're just like, boy, circumstances are crazy. And boy, that ketamine was hard. You know what I mean? Like, it's a lot. They're in it. Or a show like, like, and or we're watching someone's psychology be built brick by brick. Right. The people here are stuck, and that makes for a very different viewing experience, but I find it

really compelling and really rich because I think that Mike White continues to have a great deal of empathy for these people, even as they behave in either monstrous or almost frustratingly predictable ways. Yeah, and I think that the torturous, or maybe torturous is a wrong word, maybe the melancholy is how many of the characters are often confronted with the United States. idea of what they think they should want. So Albi is looking at Porsche hooking up with the West Ham United hooligan. And he's like, am I supposed to be that? Am I supposed to be this guy's just easy going and crushing beers and orchestrating a party. And I'm the, I'm the sort of hit of the bar

whenever I walk in. And Michael Imperiali is looking at his own son. Dom's looking at his son. And it's just like to be free, to be virile, to be, you know, like unencumbered by like, life's hangups. You know, he sees that. I'm sure his father looks at him the same way. Even Tanya, I think, is kind of looking at both Porsche, but also, like, this sort of effervescence and fun of Quentin and his clique and is like, isn't this what, like, my life is supposed to have bought me?

Because what I do is sit around and, like, complain about, like, these minor grievances when I'm visiting various White Lotus properties. these guys, every fucking night is a party and every day is a pleasure, you know? So it's, and then Harper and Ethan and Cameron and Daphne are the perfect example where obviously Cameron and Daphne probably have some sort of nagging like con going on where they're trying to get money out of Ethan, but Ethan and Harper are watching those two. And they use the jealousy that is now seeped into their own relationship into Harper and Ethan's relationship.

They see Cameron and Daphne using their jealousy as an aphrodisiac. So everybody kind of wants what they don't have here. I think there's a way to even merge our two points, which is that I think the characters get to the point of self-awareness, if not sometimes outright self-pity, and then want to be rewarded for the awareness. And I think specifically like Michael Imperioly's Dominic, right, has said on the show, I have a problem.

I have an addiction. I have issues, you know. But he's done there. He's not changing his behavior. He's not accepting responsibility. He's saying, I see that I have a problem. So now wife, who is, I believe, Laura Dern's disembodied voice, take me back. Son should forgive me and admire me.

Father should accept responsibility for doing this to me. And the most striking example of this is Tanya, who, by the way, maybe just sidebar this. I know we touched on it last week, but maybe the most stunning thing for me on TV this year is that over the course of this season of White Lotus, Jennifer Coolidge is now maybe the best actor on it, is giving the best performance. When she won the Emmy two months ago, we got on the mic, we got on the mics of our podcast. And I was like, I salute her. I applaud her for the thing that she does being celebrated for finding a creative collaborator and friend in Mike White who adores her and wants to bring her and the best of her to the screen. I didn't know he was this good of a friend and this much of a trustworthy collaborator to be like, the thing that you're famous for, there's more to it.

There's something underneath it. We're going to keep chipping at it. and we're going to use you differently this season. Everyone would have been fine if she was just sort of on the margins, you know, making us laugh and riding Vespas. She's had in some ways the most gripping and increasingly horrific arc, right? And she told us everything in her little breakfast speech to Portia where she was like, I was a doll dressed up and placed on the shelf

waiting for people to take me down to play with me. Right. And that is literally what happens for the last 20 minutes of this episode. And it is what it is. I mean, that's, I think, the thing. The drama and the dramatic stakes and tension of this show come from Mike White sketching out these people with empathy and humanity and putting them in relation to others in a way that makes sense. And then being like, yeah, this is behavior.

This is what happens. And so I'm sympathetic to any feelings. And I don't mean to be straw manning it. I think a lot of people are really enjoying this season. But to look at the Harper and Ethan thing and be like, they're just going down the drain now because of one condom wrapper. But that's all takes. Yeah.

That's all takes. Yeah. And I think that they're the, you know, when you watch it, it was actually kind of interesting to watch it the way I watched it, which was with a lot of like kind of side commentary. Love and eggnog, apparently. No, because it was kind of, it was interesting to take beats where you were kind of like, that is actually a pretty realistic.

couple fight where one person is kind of like, I'm done being mad now. Like, I'm okay. And now it's, I'm going to go do a tequila shot and like go off on and have my vacation day. And the other person is like, I'm not done. I'm going to be mad for the rest of the day. And I, you know, Ethan being driven to this place and Harper knowingly or unknowingly playing on his insecurity about Cameron often doing this memetic thing where he's like, if I see you happy, I'll take your happiness. It's been really fascinating. I guess we can get into some of... I don't want to get in... Oh, go ahead. We're going to say. Just the Harper Ethan thing. I think there are layers to why the Cameron Daphne Harper-Eithon Quartet is so interesting, and one of which is the way the nature of the

vacation, the specific... What the vacation means to each couple and how it plays out is interesting and not always the text is sometimes subtext. There's a reference to it here with the massages where she's like, well, you have to go home to some kids, so you should go do it. Right. But the implication, you know, and Ethan here is like, I've been work, works been crazy, blah, blah, blah, the danger of the vacation for that couple is that they have to spend time with each other. What has worked for them is an equilibrium of busyness that has allowed them to lean on each other just enough that makes sense for the current nature of how they get along. Exactly. But they have plenty of other things. The Cameron and Daphne thing, and we'll see what's revealed if something is to be revealed.

But they actually seem to be happy to have the chance to be together. They like their dynamic, or at least it's a well-worn or, you're. well-trod dynamic that works for them. This is a vacation for them with each other. And the revelation that Ethan and Harper might not want to spend more time with each other than they're able to normally is

damning. And that's the backdrop to the conversation they have when she wakes up. And she's just like, it isn't about that. It's about this. He does not want to talk about this. So we currently have these, I believe it's four plots, with various levels

of tension if not, speculation about whether or not a crime slash con is being run on various characters. So let's kind of run through them a little bit here. The jokes I was making earlier about the, you mentioned the Reddit stuff, and I sang the West Ham song to open the podcast, the Forever Bowling Bubbles.

Juliet, Litman hit me up this morning with a Reddit thread that's basically about how in 2006, West Ham fans got into a huge brawl in Palermo during a European away game against in Italy or in, you know, in Sicily, and that even still, like, West Ham fans are kind of, like, not welcome. So the idea of this guy walking around, what's that guy's name? Is it Jack? My God, it's so funny. You're asking me, and I'm completely blanked.

The idea of a guy walking around singing the West Ham anthem would not be welcome, where he is. And so anyway, I also thought that that character's turn and the, just the vibe of, like, first night's great, second night kind of. weird. You know, like, the first night is like, oh, this guy is awesome. And it's just like, he just keeps giving me rosé and taking me to amazing places. And then the second night, it's like, have you had nine peronies?

It's four o'clock. I was, the only bump I had in the whole episode of reviews, he was like, let's go down to the water and drink Peronies. And he's drinking a Budweiser. I was like, come on. Yeah, right. But that was great, though, because it's kind of like this shitty beach, you know, and he's getting tanked.

So, I don't know, I thought that was. Anyway, obviously. I love beer. He's like, oh, I love beer. He's trying to keep Portia away from... Yes, that's his job. The palace. At this house, at this estate,

Quentin has brought in a cocaine-dealing mafioso, possibly, to seduce Tanya. It was in the bag, as he said, and we got the full bag. Tanya, that was a lovely... I actually thought that was, like, everything Jennifer Coolidge does well. Like, her being like, oh, like, she's like in the hall of mirrors. and then being like, I'm so nervous when he comes in naked. So she, before this sort of seduction happens,

finds a picture of Quentin with the cowboy that he fell in love with, but did not like an unrequited love for a cowboy during his time in America. It's an anecdote he told a couple episodes ago. And that is Greg. That is Tanya's husband, a young version of Greg. I have not done like a ton of reading about that. I think that the general conventional wisdom is that this is, some sort of scam to, you know, like, I can't remember what the, if they have a pre-up conversation at some point, I think that they may, but that if there is, if she gets caught cheating or

something like that, that may be that Greg would be able to get a bunch of her money and thus split it with Quentin. That seems like a very elaborate scam, you know, and one that depends a lot on timing. It would explain why Greg is like, why is, like, I really don't want Portia to be here. and why Greg was like, here's where I wanted to take you. I'm going to give you one last great day that I'm going to suddenly leave, but right when you're at your lowest,

this guy, Quentin's going to swoop in and we're going to like run this scam on you. Yes. So cursory internet research suggests that it could be Greg. It's not confirmed, right? I think that that picture is definitely him. Like, that's definitely the actor who plays Greg de-aged in a picture with Tom Hollander.

Are we sure? No, I'm just saying I think it is. Okay. Right. So it's possible. And I mean, look, a big picture, I don't care either way. Like, I know that doesn't mix up. I just kind of want to continue to beat this drum.

I totally agree with you. This is what's great about the show. And it's interesting that we're talking about Greg because, again, there were like, I believe the penultimate episode in season one was when Greg was coughing the entire episode. Yeah. And it was like, Greg's definitely going to be dead. And we were having fun. because Mike White, as a fan of entertainment, both high and low, knows what he's doing.

And he knows where audiences, he has a very good sense. It's interesting. Throughout his career, it's not like he's had a golden midas touch about what audiences want, but he definitely, definitely understands where audiences will be emotionally if they've bought a ticket for the ride. And so he knows this is the moment when people will be spinning out of control with their desire to control the unknown and to put some stamp of knowledge on the uncertainty of the show. So all that's in play. I don't think it's going to change my contentment with the series.

If it is revealed to be an incredibly convoluted plot against her by these two, or if it's just a weird lynchian echo that they both had unloving, unrequited relationships with similar-looking men or whatever. You know what I mean? I think there's a lot of ways to it. She's being conned. I mean, she's being manipulated. This was confirmed.

The West Ham kid is just like he's poor, he's about to come into some money. And when he does, he's very giving. So he's going to take care of me. Right. So obviously, that guy was essentially like down and out, whatever it was, you know, busy, like, getting stranded seeing West Ham away matches. And Quentin came along and sort of rescued him and set up this whole, like, I'm your uncle

while we're traveling kind of bit. On the other friends. It is Jack, by the way. It is Jack. Jack, so I thought. Okay. So then there's a couple of other situations. We've got this Lucia, Lucia.

I'm always doing this. I'm interrupting you. I just want to say, like, the direction of that, like, satiricon, like, debauchrous. Also, it's just, like, a towel just goes really good. Like, I don't personally, like, turn it on in the car. But every time I hear it, I'm like, this isn't pretty good fucking music.

Yeah. It was really good. And that the camera, the production design is beautiful. The casting of the extras, the costume stuff. And it really nailed a moment that I think many, many people will recognize, regardless of whether you've skied the Italian Alps or not, so to speak, but weird moments of clarity that can happen in evenings of inebriation of any kind or of parties where something across a room, it feels significant, but actually sometimes it is. And so that dead-eyed look that Quentin is giving her in that moment, it was deadly, right? It was a deadly moment. And the more important thing, though,

and this is a credit to the show, isn't the look. It's that she keeps, she doesn't stop. Yeah. She wants to be taken off the shelf. She wants all of this to be true so badly, which speaks to the nature of the show itself, the fantasy, you know,

that vacation can be permanent, that all of this, that we can be taken away from all of our problems. And so that leads right into Lucia and the de Grasso's and whether or not this, late arriving pimp figure Alessio

is a set up by her to get Albi's money. Now whether that's get Albi's money or get a trip back to Los Angeles and she's like he wants money and he's like well what can I do and she's just like it's not your problem it just seems like it's going in that direction

and whether or not that is actually a sincere like she's just in trouble and she's always had this pimp because in the early episodes of the show it seems like she is making, she's just finding guys on Instagram or whatever and is just managing her own career to some extent. So whether or not that's like a con on her part

and that he always seems to show up right when Albee's around, you know, and whether that's a con on her part. And then obviously with the Harper, Ethan, Cameron, Daphne stuff is these people aren't friends. Cameron has made several mentions, of wanting to manage Ethan's money. Ethan is becoming increasingly paranoid,

but like what's the, I don't know what the kind of, what's at stake there? I think possibly like, you know, the dissolving of Ethan and Harper's marriage right in front of everybody's eyes is one thing,

but whether or not there will be an ask or a seduction or whatever from the Cameron Daphne's side to the Ethan Harper side. I want to come back to the DeGrosso part just because I don't want to leave that unattended to, but I think in the Lucia part as well, Harper and Ethan, I think

one thing that is worth referencing is God, I'm not going to remember the names of the characters. Was it the Jake Lacey and Alexander Didario Newlyweds? Yeah, I'm 51 shows later, I do not remember. Shane and Rachel, I don't know, it doesn't matter.

The absolutely earned and appropriate, but to some degree surprising end of that storyline, right, was that they stayed together. I mean, because, and I say surprising in the context of a dramatic television show,

not in life. Like, that's actually pretty natural. And, you know, the sort of hollow-eyed look that she had when she, that Alexander Didario's character, where she truly saw who he was and what she was aligned with and then saw into herself and was like, but I like it like this.

I can do this. It's worth it. I've made a calculation now. I'm not, the scales have fallen from my eyes and I get it and I'm choosing. I could see a similar thing in the Harper Ethan dynamic, assuming they both live through next week, right? Like, they know something, but neither strikes me as an individual

who from this experience is like, I also know something about myself and my emotional bravery or my desire to escape the bounds of myself and my existence. You know what I mean? They've been shaken,

which might actually bring them closer together. I think that's an interesting thing to watch. If that emotional beat is recycled in some way for these characters, I think it would be earned

and accurate, but I also wonder if with his grand architecture design of this now as an ongoing, if he wants to ring that bell again. It might go in a different direction. Yeah, that's really interesting.

Do you, do you buy the idea that she is sort of that Lucia is trying to scam Albi because she's found finally a nicer person who will like buy into that? This conspiracy theory, Reddit theory,

open question is the one that I'm most invested in. Yeah, there you go. Conspiracy Andy. But this is the one that I really want to know. And also, best case, I'm satisfied with both ends of it. It's well drawn. So if either version of it could be true.

After last week, I was pretty certain that it was a scam. This week was shot intentionally in a different way. Yes, and romantic and threatening. The car chase, such as it was and the sort of the standoff on the highway in the same terrain where Michael was in Godfather 2. This is never going to be Godfather 2. but this was shot with a feeling of real anxiety and peril. You know, it wasn't, and so that made me wonder now, which I think was intentional, and I like either way.

There was something that was kind of amazing about that whole sequence, the sort of the well-intentioned impotence of the three generations of the de Grasso men in their Mercedes, saying, well, she shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do it. Right. And then being like, it's her choice and then driving away. And then also just that, you know, those three men wandering onto the terrain of the three, women was it's not heavy-handed if it's just if the hands fit together.

You know, it just, it worked. Right. It was some nice symmetry. It was incredibly funny. It was vicious. It was a little sad. It was weird and surreal. It's one of my favorite sequences of the season so far.

I don't have a ton to say about Valentina and her exploration of her sexuality. And I thought I might just use this as an opportunity to discuss whether or not the White Lotus is a good hotel. You know, there's never a bad time. Never a bad time to discuss that. It just seems like there's just a lot of squabbling among front desk employees, which is totally fine, you know, apparently one restaurant for dinner and one for breakfast and lunch. I guess that's enough when you've got, yeah, but the beach club is like where you have like

your breakfast and lunch, right? Or no, you go down there and you get like it. Wait, when Cameron's like, why do they keep handing us the menus? I'm like, you're in Italy. You don't have to stay there. That also goes ties in with my favorite line reading of the entire episode and maybe even the series is when Jennifer Gould is just like, Aaron Cheney or a dollar. Even she knows that.

Yeah. She hasn't eaten at a non-white lotus branded restaurant in 10 years. But like, you know, it just seems like there's a lot of like nefarious activity happening at these hotels. And I guess maybe there's like an element of that at all. hotels that I maybe am only certainly like in Vegas you're aware of it but are you aware of it when you're in like Hawaii or if you're in Italy or something like that? Here's my thing. Here's my thing. I have given the show a lot of credit in season two for not being as clearly reactive to

the newspapers as season one. It's not as like one to one. To the timeline really. Yeah. But also just like season one really felt like Mike White had been like all of us in quarantine and isolation and the world was exploding to the degree that it was. And he was like, I'm going to make a show that is in response to what I've been seeing on Twitter in a lot of ways. And he made a great show. I'm not trying to belittle it. But each grouping on that first season really felt like a thread taken from a thread. If you will. Yeah, that's well put. This season has not done that, which I think has been phenomenal. I think it's been richer and deeper and sadder and weirder. And it also, to me, suggests a much more vibrant health for a series as a series going forward. That said, the primary way in which White Lotus season two is reflective of our times is the, I believe, the hiring crunch. They're not sending their best and their brightest. Just trading Rocco back and forth from the beach club.

And it's actually in the show when Grandpa is. is just like, there's a lot of unemployment here, you know? If there is a lot of unemployment in Sicily, I feel like White Lotus LLC could have a more robust, like, recruiting process. Yeah. I do think the job of manager of a high-end resort is inevitably fraud. And actually not even a high-end resort. Look, one of the best shows of all time, faulty towers, the same thing.

You know what I mean? The guy at the front desk who's also hammering the moose head onto the wall, that's not a metaphor. There's a lot on his plate. I get it. You got to keep a lot of balls in the air, a lot of plate spinning. Newhart was a hotel, right?

He seemed to have his, he was more of like a dusty baker kind of like... Inkeeper, right? Just kind of let my guys make plays, right? This is the right analogy, actually, to go to the sports manager. Like, you can have a hot-headed type, you know,

but they don't usually have a long shelf life. So I'm wondering if the profile of who you hire for these positions might need to be adjusted back at H-Tee. Valentin has got some late period Tony LaRosa stuff happening. Wow. You mean in terms of like... Just micro-management of her bolthead.

Just like a lot of like, I'm pulling this guy and I'm pulling this guy out. Yeah. I thought you meant I got to sample the martinis at the bar kind of thing. But you mean it all across the board. Yeah. I thought she did a good job of like that's like what it kind of... It did feel like she has like two drinks a year kind of thing. Also, perfectly sized martini, I got to say.

That is... I would drink a martini if it was served in that, like not in a novelty goblet. That's just a fan of the French national team talking, you know, just salt of the earth, middle America take. I would be curious if in future seasons, the, what was Murray Bartlett's character's name? God, this is really hard. Stop asking me these things. What was mayor of Easttown's husband's name? Marty Easttown?

Is that right? Their last name was Easttown, right? She was mayor. Yeah. It was a great show. You know, Logan's succession, Kendall succession. Life would be easier. Robin John Thrones.

I'm okay. You know, you joke, but this would actually be better. Yeah. I would love to see a manager character that maybe is pitched a little bit differently. Sure. You know. But that said, she's not on a, it is pitched differently. Her arc was not a bender, a, you know, a, you know, a.

sort of performative drug-fueled aggressive bender, she retreated inwards, and then, I don't know, maybe it's nice, maybe it's nice, small note, by the way, in that, it's Isabella, right? Who's the person that she was crushing on and then... Yeah, for some reason, I thought it

was Mia, but I guess I... No, Mia is the singer. Mia's Lucia. Oh, Isabella is the one who she was crushing on who actually is... At the front desk. But she's like, Rocco is my boyfriend. Yeah. And we're in... Low-key, one of my favorite performances on the show. She's so, she just smiles so sweetly. No matter what is said to her, it's just, I don't know if that's a performer, if that's the way they shot it, pitched it, edited, it's just a great detail.

And the dude with the funniest voice I've ever heard, having a role at the front desk. You know, my only regret about White Lotus getting renewed is that it seems highly unlikely that Tom Hollander can be the hotel manager next season. Great point. But I wish we lived in a world where that could happen. Yeah, but look at like, is Mike White, we're just doing a lot of sports analogies today. But is Mike White the Billy Bean of showrunners in that like he's just, he's not looking at the same casting sheets as everyone else is looking at.

No. You know, he's writing parts for people that he likes and that he sees something, which to me is what you do when you're at that level. That is king shit when you can be like, I know. I know what's going to be best for my show. Yeah, it's Albury Plus. as a, yeah, right. It's not, I don't know, it would be great if this was true.

This is a poor analogy, but it's not Kate Winslet headlining season three of White Lotus. I would pay a lot of money for that, so please understand that. But it's really, hey, we're going back to the White Lotus. This is who we're bringing along, and you're going to watch it because it's the White Lotus. That is, to me, a recipe for a successful TV show. And just as a side note, we didn't have anything to say, particularly in no notes. I think we're like 30 minutes into talking about this one episode of TV. This is a sign of a really good show.

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Ralph's SoCal for over 150 years. Savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. C-Sight for details. Well, I would love to spend as much time talking about slow horses. You know, we've only, we got the two episodes for season two of the second season of 2022. So Apple TV's plan with these books, which are written by McCarran, who appeared on the watch earlier in the year,

is essentially to make six-episode mini-series out of the Slow Horses series, the Slawhouse series. The first one was the titular Slow Horses. This one is based on a novel called Dead Lions. They, I think, shot one and two back-to-back because two had a trailer at the end of season one. I think it's very, not obvious,

but it's very funny that to distinguish between the two seasons, they're just like, everybody seemed really hot. You know, it just seemed like really warm. We're going to open all. the windows, it's going to be like really sort of like British sunlight pouring through windows and we'll turn some fans on.

British sunlight. Yeah, jumbo shrimps. Such as it is. A little bit of a creative team, not shuffle, but like somewhat of it is shuffle because Will Smith, who wrote most of and I think oversaw the first season, he only

writes the first episode of the season and Jeremy Lovering takes over directing. But to me, this is the show that now has basically replaced justified. And I think I mentioned that the first time around Graham Yeost's presence as an executive producer is more or less why I made that connection in the first place. But on the level of this is pitched exactly at the humor to action, you know, and basically humor to drama scale that I like on a weekly show like this. And knowing that this is a six-episode compact, middleweight, of a show, and I mean that in the most complimentary way.

And on top of that, now that it's the second season, now I read the books, so I don't really care, but now that it's the second season, there's not any of the getting to know you, oh, that Jackson Lamb, he just comes into the room and fart and then insults a bunch of people. Like, he can just get right into the action. I love this season so far. So I've seen the two. Did you get a chance to watch both or just the first? I just watched the first.

I don't think it affects our conversation. It does not, yeah. I agree with you. I think that it's important to actually lead the conversation with the show about how normal it is in terms of what, not just us, but I think about what a lot of people expect from TV. You know, it has big stars, certainly very, very distinguished actors with high paychecks in Gary Oldman and Kristen Scott Thomas at the top of the cast. It's a foreign show, so to speak. It is adapted from novels. So it carries with it some of the imprimatur of like, oh, this is going to be heavy.

This is going to be serious. is going to be, it's going to challenge us as much as anything else. That's not true. Like, this is what a fastball down the middle of the plate, I would use a cricket analogy if I could, but I can't, feels like, I think, in 2022. And I kind of love it for that. And I think you have to go into it understanding, like,

man, this is, this is, let me catch up with my stories at this moment. Yes, we like it more maybe because it is the type of story that we always like. but I really admire how much this show has known what it is from Jump. And like you think about, I think all successful shows that are serialized that are, you know, more than just a one-season thing, settle into becoming TV in the sense that we're comfortable with them, they're comfortable with each other, they're writing for the character, they're writing for the actors who play the characters in a certain way. And I would say if that bothers you, you should know Slow Horses has been renewed for seasons

three and four. Gary Oldman is like, I will play this character and for as long as I possibly can. It clearly is a joy for them to be working in London. It's wonderfully shot, obviously, in London. And I'm sure for Gary Olin, it's like, great. Like, I get to kind of let myself go a little bit. I have a blast and great dialogue

and getting to play this sort of like, what if Smiley was a fuckup idea. Yeah, I mean, he's a TV hero, even though he's a mess. Like, at least through, the episodes I've seen one season and one episode, he's never wrong, which is so fun for an actor to play. I think about something, this is not a one-to-one comp, but if you think about Successions Pilot versus what it became, it's the best case scenario of a statement pilot, and really all pilots,

unless they're already greenlit series, are statements. This is sketching on my terrain. I'm laying down markers. This is what we're going to be. This is what our argument is. If you think about that pilot, where everyone was super spiky and super dug in to represent something more than just what they are, to the absolute orgy of pleasure that the show is, even when it's still going into some darker emotional places. Everyone, it's the best case scenario for characters over time becoming TV characters. You know, so that now when we watch Succession, when it comes back, oh, there's a Jerry Roman scene.

Oh, my God, phenomenal. There's, you know, there's a, there's a Connor and Willis. Like every little pairing is thrilling for us. This show just started as a long-running TV show. And I feel like that's just as hard. I think it's kind of amazing. Yeah. So when we pick up, so like what was some of the developments of season one

other than Jackson Lamb is always right? I mean, it's just like... The men and what's their name? Like the sort of pairing off of two of the characters was significant. And Louisa falling for each other. I think Jackson and Lady Die coming to some sort of like understanding between the two of them. But the Min and Louisa one,

is important to me because that's just, you know, now we pick up in season two. It's like, yep, that's still going. Right. We like that, right? Yeah, let's do it. And it's just almost like a shrug. Like, you feel it when when Standish comes back, right? That's her name.

When she comes in, she does her unlocking and she walks by people. It opens all the windows and yeah. Yeah, this is, this is, it's a season premiere, you know, it's not a series premiere and you're like, great, we're back. I find that very, very settling. And I think that we could talk to the specifics after this, but I just kind of want to beat the drum for that feeling, because I do feel like people who listen to us and they hear us, you know, skew wildly from block to block over a period of weeks or months of like,

this is the big thing of right now and what does it mean? This is such a nice rhythm section. I mean, in terms of specifics, and I won't jump ahead to two, because I don't want to spoil it for you or any of our viewers who haven't gotten a chance to get into it. I mean, it's about sleeper agents. Like, that's like, the idea that there are those among us who are just waiting for a signal to like, to pounce is like a just, it's about as old as spy novels. get. That's also me as a soccer fan. Every four years. You're the cicada of the French

national team. You know, I would also just say that when you take a step back, River is Jason Bourne, James Bond, like handsome action guy. Roddy is the tech wizard. You know, Catherine is the

institutional knowledge. Like, they're just very good at giving everybody these little very familiar, cliched tropes of the genre while then twisting them around a little bit. So, you know, in Bond movies, M or whatever, is usually like this incredibly refined, sophisticated, reserved character.

And in slow horses, it's this fat, farting, noodle slurping asshole. You know, I guess Lady Die is really M. But, you know what I mean? But Jackson takes on the sort of role of control of this place. It's just honestly, like, one of the most reliably entertaining things I've watched all year. And I was going to say in years, but like it's just also really cool. I did want slow horses back now. So I'm really glad it came back.

It's a win. We've said this before when talking about this show's multi-year renewal, but it's rare for a drama to be like what we do in the shadows. And it's just like, oh, it's back. Good. There was no drama about that. I didn't have a lot of time to pine for it. I'm really glad it's back. It's sustaining. I do want to just, I know we referred to it a moment ago, but like, God, I love the way this show shoots London, a city that I don't know as well as you or anyone listening in England currently, but I have a lot of fondness for it.

And I was there recently. And like, it did make me feel, obviously British shows, there are probably many that shoot more frequently and fully in London. but in terms of what my diet has been, industry maybe get some pickups on location in London, but it shoots in Wales. A lot of period stuff shoots in London, but just like, okay, here we are on the streets of Soho. Here we are moving through Marley Bone or getting into train stations.

And that's money. That's pure Apple flexing its budget. But I love the way they shoot it. I love the way it looks. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't know why Apple has decided to be the preeminent, you know, chronicler of London life with Ted Lasso.

and slow horses, but it's, I'm into it. I mean, it is a benefit of being the richest company in the world. I guess there's that. Offices and outposts everywhere. They're like, sure. Sure. We can do that. Did you see the, I don't know if you skipped it or if this aired when you watched it,

but when I fired up slow horses, not on a screener, it did start with something that really felt like Apple's attempt to do an HBO of like, where the show. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I thought that was kind of interesting. It felt like baby steps for them to claim that mantle, but that really is the lane they always wanted to be in, which is we've got a lot of,

we've just got all of it to entertain you. They want to be a complete central lifestyle hub. And it was interesting to see what they led with. Like choose to focus on? Yeah, and it is the like, they were going for plotts for awards. I mean, like Ted Lassow has won these Emmys. Cota won Best Picture.

And then there was some other stuff at the end. that was like, and then they were focusing on stars that have appeared in their projects or will appear in their projects. And at the end, there was like a scroll of, and also, you know, and in there is the after party, you know, which got renewed and some stuff that might not have fit in with their, with this vision or this brand. It was interesting, what gets the prime slot and what gets the, oh, guess what else we have? Where was Shanta Ram? Did that get? I mean, I know some people who listen to our podcast have watched it. I know we haven't. It's so I almost want to talk about that as like a lacuna,

just like an absence, but I don't really want to do that take because a lot of talent people worked really hard on making a massive miniseries based on a 11 book. This is the Charlie Hottom show that Justin Kurzwe made or was supposed to make. I don't know if you wind up doing all of it. And it was like a,

it's basically been in the works for four years or something like that. Longer. When I first, I mean, even longer, I don't mean to date it just by my own awareness of it. But I remember when I was first working with Sam six years ago at the anonymous offices, Anonymous content, the management company turned production company, Steve Golan, who's now the late founder of Anonymous, like this was a passion project. Like he had the rights to this book that he loved.

And they were doing the thing that people often do when they have big things that feel unfilmable but inevitable, taking meetings with everyone. Have you read it? Yeah. What would you do it? We have to do it. And there are these projects that are just like, someone is going to push this over the finish line one way or another.

And it was born out of a completely different era of television, developed in a different era of television, and then finally arrived blinking into the light. And I believe nobody blinked back, you know? Right. Well, who could say? I'm not saying it's good or bad. I do think that its cultural footprint is befuddling.

Yes. In considering what the intentions were and the money spent on it. it's crazy that that can happen. And it's also crazy that a company like Apple can just eat it, assuming that it didn't hit their metrics and numbers of which we are completely ignorant. Right. Should we wrap up there?

You want to talk soccer or should we wrap up there? We should wrap up there. You want to talk Fableman's? You want to talk phony Fablemania? Let me see it first. Okay. We should do some sort of like movie wrap up at the end of the year.

Yeah, because I'm at you're seeing movies. I can't believe it. You always do this in December, though, where you're like, you just jump all over the awards fair, you know? Yeah, well, I like, first of all. You weren't with me in the summer watching Northman. You know, that's all I guess I say. That is true.

I just think people know that if there's two things that I love and that I take seriously, it's cinema and preparing for podcasts. And here I am out in front on both. That's right. Isolated and alone. Nobody wants to talk to you about interstellar. It's the great grievance of your life. I'm just in front of everyone like Killian Mbapé,

the Starstriker from my beloved blues. We were produced by Kyah Macmillan. We'll be back on Thursday with a very special episode. It's our year-end pod. I can't wait for you guys to hear it. Thank you to Kyya. Thank you to Andy. We'll talk to you soon.