The Watch - The Problem With Broadcast Television, Plus 'Killing Eve' | The Watch (Ep. 259)

Episode Date: May 21, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss the current state of broadcast television and unpack its many hurdles, destabilizing factors, and tendencies to hit familiar beats (2:00). Later they discuss the latest episode of ‘Killing Eve’ (36:30) before celebrating the return of Andy’s airplane movies (46:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Microsoft Teams and Office 365. Visit office.com slash teams to learn more. Hey guys, welcome to today's episode of The Watch. Andy is back, and we talked a lot about network television, which is something that we don't actually usually talk about. We talked about all the pilots coming out of up fronts from last week, and basically the state of network TV and how we're living in a time where there are two separate industries.

They're two separate television industry. So it was a fascinating chat about the industry. The second half of the pod was about killing Eve, as we just saw the penultimate episode last night or going into the finale next week, season finale. Just wanted to tell you about a couple of things on the, The Ringer and on the Ringer podcast network, we've got some great stuff about Deadpool. You can read a bunch about it on The Ringer.com.

Plus, you can listen to the big picture from last week about Deadpool and binge mode weekly this week about Deadpool. I also, please, please, please would love for you to listen to On Shuffle our new music podcast hosted by Micah Peters. And also, we didn't talk about Westworld today, but if you want to hear any Westworld content, it's Westworld the Recapable is hosted by David Schumaker. It's an awesome podcast. Some would say even better than the show.

some might say. All right, without further ado, let's get into the watch. I need sports to have to clear the run. Get up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio.

He's got his bourbon. He's got his pills. It's Andy Greenwald. It's a nice way to go. Andy, we will be talking about last night's episode of Killing Eve in the second half of the watch. The first half is going to

be a little bit of a sort of like macro level view kind of like up in the air view of where we're at with network television. Yes. Which is not something that we often talk about. Not for a while. And not on purpose. And I kind of want to interrogate that a little bit. I think the last

network show we really talked about with any depth was Roseanne. We only really talked about that first episode, I think. Before that, the good place. But for the most part, we don't really discuss the stuff that's available to us for free. And we don't discuss these shows that frankly are the most watched shows on television when you get down to it.

These shows that still the most people in America sit down and watch in any kind of live setting. This is an aspect of the industry that we don't really talk about a lot. We don't really, frankly, take particularly seriously critically. No. And I thought because of it's basically pilot up front trailers. So it's like at the upfronts, they did trailers for all the pilots. Let's rewind it. Last week was Upfront's week in New York, and for people who aren't familiar with that very industry term,

that is the week when the big four broadcast networks, ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox put on big shows, and they unveil their new programming for the fall. Now, historically, that was for advertisers, because that is still what funds the networks. But increasingly, it's become entertainment fodder, covered, you know, blog fodder content, and they cut up these trailers out of the pilots. and it's always boggled my mind that they basically make these trailers for new shows three and a half, four minutes.

They're the entire pilots. When they only have 20 minutes to call from. But they're trying to get you as excited as possible as it is to be for something that you won't see for months. This isn't like watching a Prometheus trailer. Most of the story beats of the first episode, if not more, are going to be in these. So it's sort of a strange thing.

You're not actually watching this because it's a cool trailer. You're literally going to see, here's the setup, here's the inciting event and here's pretty much the tone of how it will go afterwards. Yeah, and I will say I was in New York last week, not for up-fronts. I guess now is the time to admit that I actually am an executive consultant on Dick Wolf's show, FBI, which is about... FBI doesn't look half bad. It's about the FBI.

I will not have Sisto or Missy besmirched on this podcast. I'm just curious why it's not called Chicago FBI. Like, I feel like this is... Can this fit into... Even though it's set in the South Bronx? Can it be in the Chicagoverse? No, I was there last week for unrelated reasons, and by the way, I do have an airplane movie if we have time today. I'm sure we will. And just the word on the street from people who were there for upfriends was that it was a remarkably muted affair.

So the guy in the halal truck was like, pretty muted. He's like, I got very little, very little business. No, and I think it's because a number of reasons that we're going to discuss as we get into some of these shows, one of which, which I know is on our docket to discuss, is the continuing fallout from this almost definitely probably happening Fox Disney merger, which is essentially gutting Fox, the broadcast network, as we have come to know it. The other reason is this, you know, critically broadcast TV has not been the driver for the medium for a long time, but financially it was still the bulwark of the business. Is that changing?

I think it's changing. Yeah, it does seem to be changing. You know, there is the long tail of the, the long tail of the business. original programming is now the second lifespan of shows, you know, owning your own content, and then being able to spin it off into your various platforms is a huge, huge part of this. And it has increased the value of programming on cable and streaming exponentially.

I think that some of these shows, these broadcast shows, obviously there are outliers, Big Bang Theory. Young Sheldon. Young Sheldon. This is us. I mean, these are enormous shows. in the way that shows have always been enormous. Well, except that one-fourth of the people watch them and then watch MASH.

But given attrition, they are still very large shows. But the odds of finding those shows and the expense that these broadcast networks still pour into this pilot system to make them, it seems like the margins are shifting. Now, I don't have, like, insider information from the business affairs departments of these networks, but it does seem like financially it's shifting,

and I got to say, I know I kind of said something like this for four-plus years as a TV critic at Grantland, but this year's crop really feels like they're giving up. Well, I think we're definitely at a point, I don't know this is a particularly original thing to say, but watching the wave of trailers out of up-fronts, it definitely just made me feel like we're living at a time of two televisions. It's the television that we talk about.

Okay, John Edwards, tell me. No, but I mean, I think there's the television that we talk about. There's the stuff on FX, there's the stuff on AMC and Netflix. Then there's the stuff that actually is just on Fox, CBS, ABC and NBC, and with a few exceptions, not only do we, does that stuff not make its way into the TV conversation, as it were, but it also doesn't seem like it's all engineered to. And by this, I mean, I don't think that these shows are being made with the idea of

maybe we catch fire here and create a cultural phenomenon that truly is, you can participate in because there's the barrier for entry is having a television. Right. I don't think when I look at these trailers, and it's not to sort of denigrate the efforts that go into making any of these shows, but I think they're not interested in making something that looks unique or pushes television forward at all.

And I think that the show that really got me starting to think about this was 9-1-1. So 9-1-1 is a show from Ryan Murphy. We talked about that one, by the way. We did talk about it, about an emergency services crew in L.A., the 911 operator played by Connie Britton, and then a firehouse led by like Peter Krause and Angela Bassett, right? And one's a cop, once a fire, yeah.

Yeah, or something like that, yeah. And we made lots of fun of how it looked like it was set inside of a crate and barrel, and that every episode had a sort of viral moment where like a telephone pole goes through a guy's eye, but they save him, or there's a baby in the pipe. Then the phone starts ringing. And it's the baby in the pipe, like, give me out of this pipe. but I felt like that was a very representative of the idea of, look,

like we're going to get some really attractive, really charming people. We're going to put them in a really calming and sort of life-affirming setting of like a, you know, this firehouse is your actual like property brother's living room that you want. And then we're going to have it ultimately be every week a good cry and a good smile, right?

Like you're going to have like this sort of like, ah, that was good. But it's got nothing about it that's, feels like a real place or real people or really lived in stories or even particularly trying to think about these people in a thoughtful, dramatic way other than how they exist as TV tropes together.

And you look across the board at the trailers that we're seeing and I think that most of these shows are following suit. The big show that I wanted to talk about because it's something that I think of all of these is one that would actually resonate with us is the passage. So the passage is a book, is based on a book by Justin Cronin, which Andy and I have been talking about on and off since the Grant Land days. Yeah, I mean, it was essentially the first book club podcast we did without calling it as such.

We were big fans. We encouraged people to read it and we talked about it. Yeah, and it is this massive epic, post-apocalyptic, post-viral outbreak vampire story. And it is beautifully written. It has incredible characters. and it has actually breathtaking sequences that everybody is having the same dream at once. I mean, like really mind-blowing stuff in there. And it had been kicked around for a while. I know really Scott, who is still executive producing

this version of it, had been attached to direct it. I'm trying to remember who was, I think as the guy directed out of the furnace, Scott Cooper was maybe attached to direct the movie. And now you get the Fox version of it. And it looks like they shot it on the set of bones. and it looks like they have made basically a season of television from the prologue of the passage

and have turned it into more or less FBI meets vampires. And that's not to say that it can't be good, but I think that the choices that they make are to show some people the most familiar version of whatever material they're working on every single time. And that just means that their hit rate is going to be that much lower. I think you're right.

I think that where we are with culture is that if any piece of existing IP, the real challenge, everything's going to get optioned at some point. But the real challenge is finding out which box to try to push it into. And there are multiple versions of almost every idea.

I understand, and I think we were sympathetic at the time, to the challenge of making the passage into a film because it was so ambitious, and there are two subsequent books as well. It seemed really teed up to be in the post-Walking Dead era a prestige-style television show, maybe even, you know, HBO's answer to The Walking Dead.

Yeah. I mean, I think it had potential to be a kind of Game of Thrones kind of thing. This is where it ended up. And I think you and I are united in thinking this is not what we wish had been done with the material. But it is indicative of what broadcast is embracing. And I think the larger, we didn't even mention that it's Zach Morris from Saved by the Bell. It's your boy Mark Paul Gosselaar, is the FBI agent.

Who's actually pretty good on pitch? Like, I'm not even denigrating. No, he's a fine actor. He is a fine, he's the broadcast actor version of this. And there's, I guess, there's two ways of looking at this. And one way is bemoaning the lack of ambition on broadcast television. But the other part of it is to say, well, maybe they're just recognizing what they have and what they're good at. You know, the shows that tend to be successful, whether they are empire or young,

Young Sheldon, as you said, or Big Bang Theory, or This Is Us, hit certain beats or 911. You know, a laugh and a cry and you're out of there. A reliable procedural framework. Big, broad, like a pop song in terms of it's the way that it plays with your emotions. And I don't even mean that in a pejorative way. Sure. That works. What I guess bums me out a little bit about all of this is the way that 30 Rock predicted this with Jack Donegis,

the only way to save NBC is to make it in 1997 again by science or magic. That really is where we are. And so I think the thing that bugs me about this new bunch of trailers and new bunch of shows,

it's not that it's not ambitious because, look, the Kyle Killen era of broadcast TV has long pass. And Kyle Killen was a guy who was on the podcast years ago,

years ago, maybe even the first guest I ever interviewed, made a show called Lone Star that was ambitious and failed, made a show called Awake, Ambitious, failed.

mind games, ambitious failed. And then he went to cable. What's he doing on cable now? He had a pilot, I think at AMC. I don't know what his latest project is. But, you know, they were flirting with making these kinds of shows. They wanted to try to do it, but they couldn't do it. And if you look at something I just mentioned like Empire,

everything on broadcast, especially an hour long, turns to dust eventually. Like, you just can't generate plot at a pop song level of intensity and drama and mine a rewarding three, four, five years out of it. It's just, it never works. You mean in terms of the 22 episodes season? Yeah, it's just too demanding. And also, you know, the thing that was great about Empire, and I wrote about this on Grandland was I was like, this is what broadcast TV should do. It should be the top 40 radio of everything. Let's just throw everything at it, and it's big and it's campy and it's fun, and everything is drawn, you know, larger than life. But if everything is larger than life,

then ultimately it's a little bit exhausting. I think that one of the more significant trends was that the only people who pulled it off, well, let's, let's hold them both up. There's the Kings on CBS, right, with the Good Wife. And now the Good Fight. And The Good Fight, which I wanted to mention. And Shonda Rimes, who has found a way to make quality procedural slash soap operatic shows work, Shonda Rhymes is going to Netflix. And the Kings are on CBS All Access.

Dropping F-bombs. That's basically CBS being like, this doesn't work for our model anymore. We need more FBI, which is about the FBI. You pulled off the Good Wife, but if you're going to keep it going, we'll just shunt you off to essentially our version of cable. Yeah, CBS has like a sneakily interesting network. Just it's behind a paywall on a website. Right.

And so that's how that works for them. And once again, they've sort of figured out a way that they tend to make their decisions more calmly, soberly, and slowly. And then it sort of works out for them in a way that is actually pretty remarkable. When I'm looking at this new crop of shows, and we can post this link, you sent me, like, Variety had a roundup of just ABC's shows. Sure. The thing about it is you can look at this and you can look at what Fox did by bringing back Tim Allen's last. man standing. And you can be like, well, they're just reading the tea leaves. And Roseanne did big numbers. And so this is what America wants. And it's not that what America wants is an appealing

family multi-camera multi-camera, culturally and politically again. And so what bum me out about these shows, and I have them open. But, you know, there's one called, um, the kids are all right, about a working class Irish American family with eight boys. Essentially the wonder years. In the 70s. Yeah. And, um, and, a million little things, you know, just like a this is us kind of bromance show. It's that you just feel like the executives in charge of these shows are thrilled that they don't have to try anymore to a certain degree. And when I say they don't have to try anymore, the kids are all right. One is just like, it's just, it's just Irish people with their kids in the

70s. We're going to have to worry about today's problems. It's just this weird, regressive tendency, you know, after, for a network that did great, did great things with diversity and has really strong comedies, you know, still fresh off the boat and blackish, for a million little things, someone else pointed this out on Twitter, this is not my observation, but they pointed out that like the networks just seem more comfortable going back to this world where the bunch of hockey loving white friends in Boston also have their one black friend. You know, it's just like diversity the way it was in the 90s. And creatively, these shows are never going to be equal to what we enjoy covering on the other services. But they just seem so eager to go backwards. Okay, so I want

pull you up on two points there. Not that I have like, it's, I'm disagreeing with you, but I almost want to challenge, like, are we being lazy in the way we're thinking? We're talking about networks giving America what they want, right? And thinking they are, yeah. Thinking they are. And we're also talking about the networks sort of punting on creativity. But I posit that, like, they don't have to. And that they have shown time and time and again over the last 60, 70 years that they can come up with something. thing that lots and lots of lots of people like, they also can teach people what they want. You know, lost homicide life on the street, ER, Miami Vice.

Like these shows, Seinfeld, like, these shows were not, these shows were groundbreaking. They were progressive. These shows taught people how to understand storytelling. 24. Like, these shows taught people new ways in which they could understand the medium. And they introduced us on a massive. level to new stars, Clooney. You know what I mean?

Don Johnson. We've figured out who these people are through these shows. So I think it's almost a mistake sometimes for them to just be like, eh, we're going to have this baseline of people who don't know how to change the channel on their television, and that's who we're making TV for it. I know that there are challenges. I know that nobody wants to sit through an hour-long drama and have to fast-forward commercials and that, like, they have advertisers and all that stuff.

And I know that lots of things are subject to, like, live events, which is what we're also going to talk about, which is something Fox is obviously just going towards full hog where they've got essentially like six shows and are like, we're going to be the home of wrestling and events, you know? But I don't want that to be the case. I want there to be someone somewhere who's saying, like, I'll take the money that it would cost to make three of these mediocre shows

and take one big swing, whether it's on a Kyle Killen, whether it's on a whoever, and try and teach America a different way of watching television and push them again. Because that's the thing that I think it bums me out is that I don't watch this as us, but I at least respect it because it is a very creative combination of Jason Ketem's core and time travel or whatever.

And you're just throwing that out there and you're actually doing something a little bit different than people are used to, and it's obviously resonated. Yeah. I wish that there was still risks out there. And you know what? this is where we should say the caveat, maybe there is something in here that we aren't seeing,

that we're not noticing. But time and time again, what happens with these things is that I do think that they get networked to death, probably. They get noted to death. And that doesn't happen as much on these other shows. It's just that I wonder what would happen. I wonder what would happen if Atlanta was on CBS.

I mean, the thing we have to remember is, I think you're completely right. And I really wish that there were exciting shows that could resonate on that level. We haven't mentioned Brooklyn 9-9, which is moving from Fox to NBC. And one thing, you know, I kind of am of the opinion

that the way that all went down was a little bit like, I don't know, it feel like when things are made for Twitter headlines, it makes me a little suspicious. I feel like maybe the save was in earlier, but I have no inside knowledge of that. But what I would say is it's nice when people really love something. Yeah.

And people on that scale love something. We often talk about missing consensus TV days. And yes, the audience for Brooklyn 9-9 is linearly small, but collectively, and after it's streamed or whatever, it's not insignificant. And people really loved it. And that's what network TV, broadcast TV, used to be like. And I appreciate that there's still a place for it.

You know, I don't get why. I mean, again, well, there's two, I'm going to follow up to your Atlanta point. But, you know, USA, which a million conflict of interest, because that's where I'm making my pilot. But USA had this Blue Skies brand for a long time, pre-Mr. Robot. And the way it got that brand was it basically like snatched NBC's lunch money. And they're corporate siblings. So it's not like it was an aggressive play.

But shows like suits and Royal Pains and Burn Notice, like those were Sunday night NBC shows. Covert Affairs, very big hit in the Ryan household. Right. So now USA has moved on. why can't NBC take some of that back? You know? Is it not? What's the stakes? I don't know.

I wish that Matt Nix, who made burn notice, was making something like burn notice or making something like, what's the Scott Foley show with Lauren Cohen that's going to be on ABC? Like Whiskey Cavalier or something? It's basically Mr. and Mr. Swift. I wish Matt Nix was making that for NBC.

Right. To your point about why isn't Atlanta on CBS, I think we have to remember that it's a two-way street now. There are many, many, many more buyers than there used to be. And so it used to be the carrot for all creators would be to get a show on NBC's prime time lineup, because that would get you in front of the most eyeballs,

and it would make you the most money, and give you the access to the biggest talent or whatever. That is 1,000% no longer the case, except maybe, well, the last one. Money still might be the biggest. Eyeballs still might be the biggest. But people are chasing prestige in a different way, and they're chasing freedom because there are options now. So we can't put all of the blame on executives here,

because I'm sure there are, and I've met people who are very smart who work in broadcast TV. it's that they don't have access to the A-list creators anymore. And they certainly don't have access to the A-list talent, who, many of whom, everyone's doing TV now. I mean, I'm not breaking news by saying that. But most agencies say that the biggest talent won't do ad-supported television of any kind.

That's still the barrier. Because of the length of the season or because of the restrictions of creative restrictions? They won't do it for the length of the season and the length of the contracts. That's why you're not going to see, you're not going to see Emma Stone doing an ABC show. Sure.

But you will see you're doing a Netflix show. But there is still a stigma for... I think FX is broken a little bit. But ad-supported cable that's not streaming. So HBO Showtime, Netflix, Amazon, yes, AMC, USA, FX, maybe. But there's still a barrier there. So it's a two-way street.

It's just, as you said, this goes back to your biggest point, which I think is the right one. They're just two industries. Yeah. And it just feels a little bit more afraid than I realized because I did think even a few years ago and we would talk about this, we would have our list of shows that we covered critically and that we love talking about in the podcast. But we watched New Girl. We watched...

The NBC comedies. The NBC comedies there. Parks, yeah. And, and, and, or maybe, you know, occasionally a Shonda Land show, it felt appropriate because people used, I say this often. Mike Schur said this to me years ago. People use TV for different things. And there's a reason to have some comfort and then to be challenged and the beauty is you get both. But it just feels a little bit broken to me in a way that I'm not sure how they're going to come back from. Exacerated by this fact that we touched on briefly last week, but we should come back to again. I mean, Fox is, nobody really knows. I mean, the Times reported yesterday that your boy, our Philly boy, Brian Roberts from Comcast coming through, trying to just come off the top rope and steal that deal. Yeah. But,

Unless he's able to splash the pot. Unless he's able to do that, Fox is selling itself to Disney, basically. And the Fox Broadcast Network will no longer have a studio partner, meaning they won't be able to own the content that they put on. Sort of essentially what was at the heart of the Brooklyn Nine-N-N-Nissue, right? Yes, exactly. It's a universal show. It was like a made money, but not for Fox.

Yes, it was an expensive show going into later, you know, fifth or sixth season. And so this, you know, the thing about Fox is that it took some of those chances. Last Man on Earth is a ballsy show. show, 24, Empire. They took big, big swings. That's always historically been its brand as a broadcast network. Now it's going to be Fox News talk shows, and they just snatch wrestling from USA, and God, they wish they had outbid ABC for American Idol, because that's what it's going to be. And Fox as like a broadcasting company massively outbid ESPN for the World Cup that's about to start next month. Because that's where its future is without a studio. And that's going to destabilize

things even more. Look, I just, what I, I guess what I don't understand is when I see, I remember very fondly, and I also remember it constantly being on life support in terms of whether it's going to come back or not, I remember very fondly the night, the Super Bowl night that homicide premiered. Oh, yeah. And feeling like this is the, this is the vanguard. Like, these are, this is like, you guys get the most eyeballs ever to make your first impression.

And holy crap, did you make your first impression? It was like, and that was also a moment where, you know, I don't know, I can't really like chop up exactly what led to homicide coming out. But you had all of America watching something and probably 65% of the people out there who were watching it were like, what the hell is this? And then there were 35% of it like me who fell in love with an art form because of it, you know? And still adore that show and adore Andre Brower and adore people who were on it. I think that that is a missed opportunity for network television. I wonder what happens. Like you guys put on so many, and God bless her,

so many bad Catherine Hegel shows that are essentially variations on the same theme. So many like, oh, we're still trying to figure out, crack the lost nut six years afterwards. What would have happened if you just put Killing Eve on NBC or ABC? I don't know. I mean, people who watch ABC are familiar with Sandra O. That's not going to be like a groundbreaking idea for them.

And what's the downside of owning people's minds for three months if you're ABC? Yeah, I don't get it. I think there must be some calculation that we don't have access to, which is basically they look at the numbers and they look at who's watching and they think they've just lost a generation, whether they were on top of it or not. But there's a generation that doesn't even think of TV being a linear medium,

and they're not coming back, I think, is the attitude. You know, there are many, there are a couple bright spots in this lineup. You know, we love Mike Scher personally. We like him creatively. He's executive producing a new show called Abby's starring our friend, Natalie Morales, so happy she's getting a shot to lead a show. Which is essentially trying to do. It's the Cheers model.

It's like a bar with a group of characters. It's another way to do it. That's not a high-cost show. It's a multicam sitcom, and people still want that. That's on NBC. That's on NBC. But I also think that underlying all of this is the fact that Netflix is coming to steal that corner too. You know, Netflix is putting a lot of money into multicam comedies.

Normcore television. Into procedurals, into Shonda Rhymes, into volume, which used to be the broadcast business with Ryan Murphy. there's an element to this conversation where we are bemoaning things that happened and ended a long time ago, people are still going to be watching shows like this, but they're going to be watching it on Netflix, which is essentially as dominant,

or soon to be as dominant as broadcast TV once was. I think the challenge is always going to be the fact that it didn't make sense anymore. You know, you want to challenge people with forward-looking art and you want to get it in front of as many people as possible, but there are now two dozen providers that will allow you to make this challenging art

and not give you notes on it. Yeah. And then you can just make it. Yeah. And it's like you just wonder... I think, you know what's the show, and I mentioned this because REL is going to be on Fox. And Rell is...

That's an interesting one for you. I think Carmichael show on NBC is I wonder what happened. You know, Carmichael's show on Netflix or FX is exactly what it is. on NBC, it is this sort of, it's a Molotov cocktail. You know what I mean? In a way, it's not only in terms of what it's talking about, but the way in which they do these seven, yeah, did,

these eight, nine minute uninterrupted scenes that did not have three jokes a page. Or if they did, they were also about very, very dark subject matter. So I'll be kind of curious to see the next time we get something that's like legitimately groundbreaking like that. Let's, because let's just end this part of the conversation by saying it's still a bummer that one day at a time, which is brilliant and moving and spectacular to watch, I think, and many critics agree. It's a bummer to me that it's on Netflix. I wish it wasn't.

But then, you know, you look at the numbers and see how it works. Maybe it couldn't have, maybe it couldn't have survived. Maybe it would have been noted to death. Maybe it would have underperformed once and then CBS or ABC would have just moved on. I wonder what would have happened. I mean, these are very, like, at this point in Black Mirror's run, I don't know that you, it's, it's become so dark and it's also now, it's very much like different filmmakers or doing different variations on it.

But I do wonder what would happen if Black Mirror was on after 60 minutes every Sunday. Yeah, it just doesn't. I don't know if people could take it. And obviously there are certain episodes you just couldn't put on network television. I think the thing that, yeah. But you could put me right back on. But CBS is the only one that still seems like a functioning. But they're not.

But they might not be. Right. Yeah. Because less movves could be out of a job this year. This is, it's end times. If less move is out of a job, like... None of us are safe. Yeah, right.

Seriously. Before we go to a break, I just want to ask, what's one show from this crop of pilots that you think you're going to check out? Abbees. I mean, it's become... It's me applying a cable mindset to the broadcast business, which is chasing autours, basically. If Mike sure made it, it's worth watching. in my mind. And he's achieved that level of trust with viewers in terms of quality in primitre

matters, right? And so that alone will make me check it out. You have... I mean, I'm going to watch the passage. Yeah. And then just out of sheer admiration for Dick Wolf, who recently received a honorary doctorate in giving no fucks, my guy just named the show FBI. They were like, Dick, You know, you're just killing it, man. You're killing it. What do you, what do you see here? I'm seeing two FBI agents. Like, oh, God, I love it.

I love it, Dick. What do you think it's going to be called, like, men of honor, you know? The badge, you know? The haircut. He's like, FBI. He's figured it out, man. This is the dude who runs the widget company in Ohio. And he's like, what do you do?

He's like, I fucking make widgets because people need widgets. And actually, there's a price. in that. And I kind of admire it. He is still an old school guy in an old school business. And NBC was like, I don't know about this law and order thing. He's like, what's not to get? It's two words. Yeah. Law and then there's order and then you're done. And then they try, you know, they canceled the flagship Law and order show. And he was furious because they denied him the gun smoke record and blah, blah, blah. And then he just slowly widget by widget built a second billion dollar empire by taking public services and linking them in the city of Chicago.

Yeah, right. Right. And, you know, they, the, shows have fans. And let me just say you something. Because of all these shows, the one thing that I was kind of, I'm kind of disappointed. Because here's the thing, it's like the old studio thing. It's like if you're going to make a studio picture, like a studio movie, like make it look like a really like you guys know what you're doing. And that's why it bums me about the passage.

It just really does look like they shot this on like the old bone set. FBI looks good. Like visually, it looks pretty stunning. Like I'm sure it's going to be like CSI FBI, but I will check FBI out just to see what it was. and I'm going to watch the passage because I can't have this be something I've been waiting for for eight years or whatever. Yeah. And then not watch, check it out.

It just, what's a bummer about it is that they often just mistake the things that people want. And there is a version of the passage that I think could have appealed to a large cross-section of the audience. But in this trailer from this pilot that is years in the making, it's essentially, Mark Paul Gosseler defends a magical kid. Mm-hmm. And that is the least, it actually. is the least interesting possible outcome for that book. It's not even actually

you can do what you want when you're adapting stuff, but it's not even really what happens in that part of the book. No. What happens in that part of the book is he does defend that magical kid, but they just spend a lot of time making lunch. They do have a lot of lunch. All right, we're going to take a quick break.

We've got to make lunch. We've got to make some lunch. To hear from our sponsors, we'll be back to talk about last night's killing Eve and Andy's airplane movies. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the Black Tucks. It's wedding season! Why did I say that like the way DJ Collead says, lie on? I don't know, but I liked it. When you're bringing a date to a wedding, you want to look fresh.

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That's the Blacktucks.com slash watch for $20 off your purchase. The Black Tucks, premium rental, suits, and tuxedos delivered. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Audible. Audiobooks are a great sidekick for summer activities like hiking, running, road tripping, enjoying downtime, outdoors, and more. And with the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, Audible lets you fill your summer with more stories like Every Man of Menace, which is the next Double Down Book Club selection.

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or text watch to 500-500. That's A-U-D-I-B-L-E.com slash watch or text watch to 500-500. You can do it with audiobooks. We back. Eve back. Appointment television, just my favorite thing on TV right now. Penultimate episode.

Penultimate episode. Felt like a penultimate episode in the traditional sense, not in the George Pelicanos kills everybody's sense. That's my favorite kind of penultimate episode. Yeah, definitely setting up a season finale. The first...

Not a series finale, I think it's clear now. Season finale, yeah. The first kind of yada yada did a little bit. Why don't you talk about that? Because I think you had some notes. Well, I love this show. I'm thrilled about this show. I'm excited there's another week.

And, you know, if I don't think too much about it, what it means I'm excited for another season. But I think, and I didn't do this, but I think that if you were to watch the first two episodes again, and then last night's episode, you would sort of, you could tell the difference. It does seem to be settling in a little bit more than it was. It seems to be settling into a slightly different kind of show because the first few episodes with their breakneck pace and intensity

and just the sort of manic energy that both actresses were bringing suggested something that would just burn fast and bright and quickly and not, as we've said before, not have a second season. I feel like the decision to go to the Russian prison and to go to Russia, the show feels bogged down in it in a way that I didn't expect. It seems like the sort of thing that works well in a room and it's an interesting look and it's an interesting idea and it gives her more to do and it keeps her in one place. But I don't know. It's one of those things where you bought the ticket on the ride no matter what, but you're not sure about this portion of the ride. You know, you kind of want to get back to the loop to loops.

and it does make me worry about the settling in as it becomes potentially Eve and Villanelle united in some way against the 12. I mean, all these places it could be going rather than just being a cat and mouse game between this particular cat and this fascinating mouse. That said, I love Constantine.

This guy, Kim Bodia, I think his name is, who, by the way, was the star of the original, I think it's Danish show The Bridge, the thing that got adapted multiple times. He's so good. He's just such a charismatic and incredible presence. And the way that character has gone, it's just beautifully done, frankly.

It's the thing that the show does that keeps me hooked. These sort of beautiful grace notes that it gives to these characters that they trick you into thinking these are supporting characters, and they're kind of not. No, yeah. The scene between him and Villanelle

and the scene where she has the other handler briefly. Anton was an incredible off-the-bench performance of Anton. Just a great energy guy off the bench and now back to the grave. But that's the stuff that I like best in the show. I am equivocating.

I'm waffling a little bit. It has nothing to do with whether it's a good show or not or a great show and whether we love the show. This is what we have been kind of concerned trolling it about for a while, which is the possibility that it could just get orphaned blacked, that it could have like another two seasons of Sandra O hunting down the 12.

I thought Anton and Constantine saying like, well, there are guides or what were they called? It was another word. Who had access to that. Yeah, it was something where it was like there was another level before you get. That's video gaming it. That's like there's another boss next season and then there will be a final boss in the third season or something. and Villanelle will be in and out of this the entire time. The attraction to me for this show is the mutual obsession and repulsion

between the Sandra O character and the Jody Coma character. I like the world building. I've enjoyed my time in Moscow. I like Kenny. I love Carolyn. I love Vlad. I love all these characters are cool. I like how they're doing it.

But there will be a lot of kicking the can if they're trying to imagine this is a third season. And I will sound this other note of concern, which is not, again, This is the weird place we're at with O-Tor-driven television, is that there's only so many Phoebe Waller Bridges. She did not write these last two episodes, both of which I enjoyed thoroughly. But they did not have, I would say, her signature level of, oh, my God, they're going there with this.

Oh, my God, this is hilarious. Oh, my God, this is horrifying. That's her. And it was good. And I bet she did some rewrite on it. And I bet she maybe even wrote the Anton scene or something like that. But her voice is not replicable.

Just the same way David Mamitz isn't, just the same way Aaron Sorkins isn't, just the same way Amy Sherman Palladinos isn't. Or David Lynch, and you think about like the second season of Twin Peaks 20 years ago, and it was just, there were things that were weird, but they weren't dream logic. Yes. And similarly, I love killing Eve, and it's incredible that six episodes in or seven episodes in,

it already knows what it is. I mean, that's the sign of a great show. And it's the show where the woman, whose husband was castrated by Villanelle and murdered, offers Eve cake and then gives her the second piece of cake. Yes. You know, it's just these small little grace notes. And then Eve screws it up by being like,

did you have sex with her? Yeah, a little specificity. But this is the show where that woman offers her cake. That is the baseline. When Phoebe Waller Bridge is writing it, this is the show where there's a line about the rat, you know, in the alley in front of the building and never mind the smell and all of the great stuff with,

what was his name, her colleague, played by David Higgs. Frank, yeah. No, not Frank's the bad guy. Sad mustache man. David Hague, yeah. But I forget the character's name. Oh, Bill. Yeah, sorry.

Bill. All the Bill stuff. That's when the show is electric. And so a B version of Killing Eve is great, is fine. But when it's at it's A-plus game, it's exceptional. And I think that, yeah, we are greedy. Creators are overtaxed. One other note. just, I kind of was fascinated to see that Sandra O. clearly had a cold.

It was amazing. In this episode, and I often think about this. As someone who definitely thinks he needs to go to the urgent care, like, if I stay up an hour too late at night, I always am fascinated by actors who are doing how they just are always able to be on. But she was shot. She was in Moscow. God knows how long the hours were. And she still. But that works for the character.

It works for the character. And she's still doing it. And she's still great. But at the point where they're just like, what we got? a role. You know what I mean? Like that, that level of seeing behind the curtain a little bit is always interesting to me. Yeah, for sure. So what do you think the show has to do for you? I mean, we're in. We keep saying this, but obviously we're in. What would you like out of a season finale now that you know that the show is going to be ongoing? What level of resolution slash rebooting

would you like to see going into a second season? That's the tough answer because I'm greedy. I don't want to give up these characters yet, so I don't want to, I don't want to want an end to Villanelle just to put a bow on the French fashion that we're going to get. If I had to guess, it seems like they're positioning Carolyn as sort of becoming maybe the villain of the show. I don't know.

I mean, it also could be that Carolyn and Constantine are working to, like, sort of keep a stability to the Western and, and the world. That even Villanelle is actually not an, evil organization, but like the organization who protects people. And then even Villanel are both

pawns and thus. Yes. I do think though, you mentioned a little bit like even Villanelle working together or some sort of, I don't think that we can come back from that. Like the same way that you were just sort of like in Barry where you were like Barry can't be a cool guy again. You guys

know that, right? Like Villanelle can't be the hero. We can like Villanelle and cheer for her sort of in our darker places. And she is just blockbuster entertainment and I hope she sticks around. But it can't be Eve and Villanelle versus the world. No, and I think that if there is a flaw to these last two weeks,

putting Villanelle in the prison with all of these red shirts, basically, all of her victims are not people in the eyes of the show, or certainly in the eyes of the audience. It's taken us away from that truly fascinating third rail that the show flirted with, which was Eve's psychosexual fandom of this woman, which extended up until the point when the knife blade turned on her, her friends, and her family,

and she came into her home. And that fascinating attraction repulsion that anyone can have with things that they shouldn't. The show, because of Phoebe Waller Bridge, because of the crew and the cast and everyone, they were willing to go there. These two episodes in my mind

represented a slight step back from that because it was... Yeah, because it's just a little bit of a downshift as you get ready for whatever the future of shows. And a shot of an action. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I agree. agree with you, I think that the natural thing that the first few episodes would have had us

believes that Constantine is not long for this world. And I was ready to believe it last night as well because of the first few episodes of the show. If we are settling in for a longer run, boy, I would hate to lose him. And so I think we can look to him as the weather vein of where the show might be going into the second season. That's a good way to leave it. All right, we... You want to know my airplane? Oh, let's hear about the airplane movie. It's been a while. So, I almost just shared with the world via... social media that while I was so sorry to miss last week's conversation with you and yeah you've got an air goren thoughts just by all means the best show for me to miss ever um

I was on an airplane yeah sipping yeah kind of over-oaked California shard but you know sorry that's what Delta was carrying this month I always just imagine like like a nice earthy red to to to bed you into the seat oh I don't want I don't like a heavy yeah I don't want the heavy tannins you know I want something you want to be able to drink more than one plastic cup this. You know, I mean, listen. That's why I drink whiskey on the Lansing. It's a long flight.

Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to let you people know that I didn't give you the full experience because, and again, you know, Delta's been pretty good to me, so I didn't complain. Uh-huh. But the screen was broken in my seat. So I couldn't advance past the first page of options. Okay. So I want you guys to know I was limited in every category to the films that began with A, B, or C.

This is like you were going back in time to network television. Yes. Yeah. Thankfully, I did find one thing that I was interested in seeing, which was the Tom Cruise film American Made. Yeah. And I wish that I loved this movie more so we could reclaim this as like, I wish we could Born Legacy this film.

Yeah, this is, I didn't love this movie, so it's okay. I think Doug Lyman doesn't make bad movies. Yeah. But he doesn't always make great ones. And this is the movie, for people who are big fans of the Narcos Extended Universe. Like me. Like Chris Ryan, my co-host. This is the Barry Seals story, kind of.

in Doug Lyman fashion, they just kind of vamped. Yeah. And it has very little to do with reality. But you get your boys from the cartel. They show up. They're well played again by, like, how many actors have played? I know. It's like Hamlet at this point.

It is. I'll say this. Tom Cruise has a good time. It's an entertaining film. It belongs in, just put this on the highlight reel of Donald Gleason, whose name I now feel marginally comfortable saying. This dude is just, low proing and elite career.

Okay, so I wanted to mention this to you. Yeah. You might want to check out there on the streets because I think you might be on Gleason Island. People aren't feeling Donald Gleason? Do they move their allegiance to Jack? No, but I think that, like, the general Hux stuff has not helped him a ton.

Hux is a choice. Yeah. It's a choice. Especially in Last Jedi. He makes some choices. And I think that since then, it's like, I need Gleese to get his, he needs like a big look. He's coming in, he's wearing trousers, he's doing like forced American accents.

I get it. But I want to, I want to see what he's really got. I think that, okay, so. I really liked him in Brooklyn, by the way. Yes. Years ago, yeah. People, have you checked him out on Netflix in a feudal and stupid gesture, the, okay, David Wayne National Ampoon movie?

Mm-hmm. Where he just chooses to play this role. Like, it is a deeply felt dramatic. character performance. And so much so, and this is while everyone else is just vamping and like Seth Green is showing up as Christopher Guest and John Daly is just doing a Bill Murray imitation. And meanwhile, Donald Gleason is smoking a pipe and like, lending real dramatic weight to his scenes with Will Forte, who is on Quailudes when wearing a ponytail.

It is a great performance. And an American Made, too. Yeah, he's wearing trousers. That's an accurate description of his role in this movie. But he's shipping guns into Arkansas and Jesse Plemons clearly just, just, just, got a call and they were like, you're still fat? He's like, a little bit. And they're like, show up for two days. Like, it's wild that he's in this movie. Yeah. He contributes very little, but he's very good in it. Um, I God, I'm shocked to hear this. I'm just saying that you might

want to, you might want to do a little bit of research before you buy, by, bye. Yeah. Wow. Just, just, just, just, just, just like you know. This from the guy who still has his Harvey Dent for president T-shirt. This from the guy who, I believe, solely from the trailer to flight? Is that correct? What was, why were you buying so much? He's in Sully. Whatever.

It was Sully and he's also in the original burnt called No Reservations. Guys, though I do airplane movies, I won't watch movies about airplanes. So I forget why you bought all that Aaron Eckhart stock. It was because he had turned fully into being a character actor while also gwapping up on the White House down or the Olympus has fallen. Why don't you Larry Kudlow this for me?

And tell me about how those stocks have turned out for you. Because first of all... They're like life insurance. You have to wait 25 years for them to mature. They don't even trade Donald Gleason's stock in this country. Okay? This isn't the bourse or whatever. Yeah, right.

These are European stocks I'm investing in. And they are going to bear fruit... Put it next to your Vincent Cassell bonds. They're going to bear fruit in time, okay? Yeah, you might want to check about how Brexit's going to respond to the Dominoleason, you know, dividends. Wow. Look, I'm just saying Jack Leeson Stock is still out there. Okay.

All right. After Phantom Thread, it's on the come-up. We'll be back on Thursday probably to talk Westworld and let you know how Andy's Don't-O-Gee's and Stock is doing until then. Great job, Branson. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Joe Parra Talks with You. There's a new show coming to Adult Swim called Joe Parra Talks with You. It's a quiet show about Joe and his friends and the things in his life.

Like breakfast food, rocks, weddings, being woken up by thunder, grilled chicken, pumpkins, fall drives, and more. Now here's a personal request from Joe. Please watch it. Joe Parrot talks with you, Sundays and midnight on Adult Swim.