The Watch - The ‘Reservation Dogs’ Finale, ‘Top Chef’ News, and an Interview With ‘Midnight Mass’ Creators Mike Flanagan and Trevor Macy

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about the potential IATSE strike and how it might affect the production industry (1:00), the news that ‘Top Chef’ will be heading to Houston next (12:03), and the finale of ‘Reservation Dogs’ (27:10). Then Chris is joined by the creators of ‘Midnight Mass,’ Mike Flanagan and Trevor Macy, to talk about the new show (43:01). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Mike Flanagan and Trevor Macy Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He's going to California. It's Andy Greenwood. Oh, because of reservation dogs. That's right, brother. Because you are in California.

Technically, we are both in California. Where it is hot is a hot September here. We're almost to October. That's just an observation about the calendar. I'm Chris Ryan. Andy's here. We're going to talk a little bit about the season finale of reservation dogs. We're going to talk about the top chef news.

We've got some industry talk, a little bit of Northwater. And then the second half of the pod today is myself and writer-director Mike Flanagan and producer Trevor Macy, who have just released or will have released tonight midnight mass on Netflix, just from the creators, obviously, of haunting of Hillhouse and haunting of Blymire Manor. Not obviously for me. Yeah. And Dr. Sleep.

Yeah. The sequel to The Shining. It is a very intoxicating, I would say somewhat demanding, but very in its own way, rewarding series that is further explores a lot of the themes that Flanagan's been dealing with in terms of family trauma in terms of community and fractures in community. And it's set on a small island. And it starts Zach Guilford, who people probably know from Friday Night Lights.

And Hamish Linklater, who is extraordinary in this series. And it is mysterious and also very, very beautiful. And you were going to say something. Linklater Hive, Hamish, not Richard, is bubbling right now. You know, do you know, I would say the actor that I hear the most, people praise within the industry in relation to how many people talk about them

just on the streets of the world, the ratio is highest with Hamish Linklater. People love Hamish Linklater. They think he's an incredible talent, which he clearly is. Oh, so like in the clubhouse. Like, he's a clubhouse guy. Like, people like it.

He's a big club. That's exactly the analogy. Interesting. People are like, get him on the team on a veteran contract, and that's going to get us to the playoffs. Like, he's the savvy signing. He's the PJ Tucker.

Exactly. Okay, I like it. Andy, we have a bunch of stuff to talk about today, but why don't we talk, speaking of clubhouse stuff? There's a little bit of an industry story that, you know, people may or may not know about. People may or may not be thinking that it's affecting their lives. But I wanted you to talk to me a little bit about the IOTI, the authorization for an IATI strike,

right? Like, they aren't on strike yet. What is IATI first? So people should be paying attention to this for two reasons. One, because it may end up affecting the content that you and and everyone loves so dearly. The supply chains, man. That's a big, big topic right now.

But primarily you should be paying attention to it because it is an very, very, very important labor issue within the industry that supplies the content that everybody loves so dearly. And everybody loves to consume it, but also all of the people in the executive suites love to make money from it. And it's important to be aware of who's actually doing the work here.

Ayatzi is an enormous union. It's the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, And it's also kind of a catch-all union that's probably not the right term, but for all of the various guilds that are within the production side of the industry. So, for example, one of their largest chapters are the cinematographers and camera operators. They have their own union within Ayatzi. I believe that wardrobe hair makeup. Right. So when you hear, you guys heard me do it for a long time, but anytime we have someone on here, Barry Jenkins the other day,

generally if you're anyone who has been in production, you will hear them talk with great reverence and great respect and great gratitude to the crew. It's a catch-all, but these are the people who work tirelessly, and I do mean tirelessly, to make these shows and movies that we love so much. And they voted to authorize a strike vote, meaning a strike is not necessarily going to happen, but it is going to be put to the membership, which is in itself a very large step. And it could result in a mass strike of film and TV crews and a shutdown of the industry. Because without Ayatzi's many, many, many thousands of members, stuff can't get made. Literally, you cannot have a production. No one can hold a camera if you are not in Ayatzi on a union film set. And I really just encourage everyone to do some light Googling, some light reading about the motivations and reasons for the

strike, absolutely standing in support of all of the brilliant crew members who are taking this action. The job is insane, you know, because I have a microphone and we invite people who had similar jobs that certainly do it on a much greater scale than I ever did to talk on microphones, there's an impression, which I think isn't entirely inaccurate, that, you know, oh, show running is hard. Yeah, it's super hard. But it's not hard like wake up at 4 a.m. every day for 14 weeks and haul cameras in the desert hard. I didn't have to do that. While people were doing that on my show, I was sitting in a tent with big blowers blowing cool air on me, dreaming up ideas. You know what I mean? Like, it is a punishing job. And one of the main things that you'll see when you do some of this

research that people are speaking about is people are just asking for a little more time off. There are these punishing turnarounds where you may start the week on a Monday. You used to talk about this a little bit with Briar Patch, but basically the Fridays into Saturdays are the Fratter days? Is that what they call them? Yeah. You start, basically the clock resets every week because you get a certain amount of time off on the weekend.

So your call time on a Monday, when I say your call time, I'll say my call time on a Monday might be 6.45 or 7 a.m. That means certain lighting guys and rigors and stuff, they're getting there at 4 a.m. 5 a.m. And then there's a 12-hour day and a turnaround. If you run a little bit late, that pushes the next day's start from 12 hours from when you wrapped. By the time you get to Friday,

you may have a 2 p.m. call time to 2 a.m. And again, if you're working on a crew, that's two hours before, maybe two hours afterwards. I mean, the guys were, we finish a scene with eight picture cars, picture cars are the cars that you use on picture. And we're like, great, good job, everyone. And the actors and the writers and producers and everybody go home. And then someone has to drive those cars back. Someone has to shut down the set. And our assistant directors who are helping keep the set clear and clean and getting people where they need to be are standing. They're just standing. They're just standing in the desert for the entire day of shooting. And maybe they get a bathroom break, maybe they get a short lunch.

What the IAT team members are asking for is a little bit more time. And considering the massive explosion in production and the massive profits being generated from them, it does not, to my layman's eyes, seem like an unreasonable ask. I mean, the crew makes these shows. They deserve to be treated fairly in respect. Can I ask a question that maybe you don't have the answer to? Yeah. How much of an issue is sort of arisen out of like,

the fact that there isn't really an off season for television. There hasn't been for a while, but more now than ever. I mean, we were talking about this with the Emmys where, you know, should the Emmys move to January or Sean and Amanda talking about this, should the Emmys go into a catch-all award season at the beginning of the year and make the eligibility window January to January or whatever, or January to December 31st? And I was, you know, one of the reasons why the Emmys is when it is

because it's supposed to be at the kickoff of the fall season when all the network shows come back, as they are, and you and I have not talked about Naria one. Even I saw Seppin Wall kind of saying, this is like the first year where I'm basically not going to acknowledge like these network shows. I'll keep an eye on them. But there's, you know, this is not what television is anymore. And I was curious whether or not the constancy of production through summers, through like all go no stop has had a trickle down effect to where it's really affecting these crews in a way where they're not getting like, hey, I worked from, you know, August or September until May. and now I have a couple months off

or a couple weeks off at least. I can't speak with any confidence or accuracy about how life has changed for a transpo guy over the last few years or whatever. But what I can say, and I think this is generally true for all facets of the industry, is that it has,

the way TV has changed and the way that we deliver it and consume it has changed has had a transformational effect on careers and jobs. And from a writing perspective, It used to be if you got a gig on a show, that was your job for the year. You were making 20 episodes, you know, and it went on a recognizable schedule that was like late summer until early spring. And then you had kind of a summer off and then you, you know, it was almost like on a school schedule, which is what the TV season used to be on as well.

As seasons and productions have gotten shorter, the need to have multiple jobs has increased. That's true for writers. that's true for DPs, that's true for ADs, everybody. You cannot make enough to live on by doing one eight-episode show once a year. And also, if you do one-eight-episode show, or in my case, a 10-episode show, no guarantee it's coming back for 10 more episodes.

You can't just bank on it in the future. That was like, that's another thing that's sort of been changing is like the resistance to really having things that go more than three or four seasons anymore. I think the other thing that's worth keeping an eye on is, well, what did it mean to be the second AD on a quote-to-quote demanding TV show? Well, 25 years ago, and I'm not belittling how hard the job always is in any context, but 25 years ago, that might have been being the second AD mostly on the CBS Radford set of Chicago Hope or whatever for 20 episodes. So you're on set, you're on stages, you're indoors, it's more controlled and predictable. As TV has gotten more adventurous and also more cinematic, what it could not.

mean the same job with, you know, a scaled up for 25 years or whatever, but the same pay, second A-Ding a show with cinematic aspirations in the middle of the New Mexico desert in the summer. It's just a fundamentally different experience. And then if you bring in a film director, you know, David Fincher is directing like David Fincher, whether it's for Netflix or when he made, whether it's making TV for Netflix or whether he's making movies for Netflix. He's still David Fincher. He's an unfair example because I think that from what I've heard, he treats his crew very well. but what I mean is infamously or famously, he'll be like, take 35, let's go. That probably means that if you're the one banging the slate, you know, with a little like

three, two, one, into the sandwich board thingy, you can't take a bathroom break or get off your feet, you know, and there's a trickle-down effect from that too, because if you are a second AD and you're pregnant, it might be more challenging to be on your feet for that much of the day, or if you have other issues or other things going, pregnancy isn't an issue, but if you have other circumstances, that you're bringing to work that day, which is reasonable within a workplace, where's the wiggle room for understanding and for empathy for that? So it's too big of an issue, I think, to speak about, you know, in capsule form or even glibly. But I hope that by talking about it here, we can draw some attention to it. And I hope that people will continue to pay attention to it because, you know,

we all, everybody in the industry, no one takes more pride in their jobs, in my experience, than the crew and IOTC members who make the stuff. And, you know, no one gets less recognition for it. And at the very least they should be treated well. Yeah, we'll definitely keep an eye on it. Let's talk a little bit about news that it hits close to home in terms of our shared interest, which is Top Chef, obviously, Andy and I spent this last Portland season. We recapped episode by episode and had a great time doing so and sort of marveled at Top Chef's ability to mount a production, really in the darkest days of COVID.

They were shooting last, you know, what was the last fall, I guess they shot. Late summer and a fall, yeah. Yeah, late summer and a fall. under obviously pretty like socially distanced, quarantined, bubbled circumstances. They've announced the new season. It's going to be in Houston. I think it's going to continue with the All-Star judging panel model that they had. Is that correct?

So I think I've expressed some like it, but I don't love it the way I love like the consistency of past seasons in terms of the judging. I think that there are certain things that are objectively obvious. when somebody screws up a dish or somebody does something wrong with a preparation. But, like, I kind of enjoyed the baseline of Gail Padman and Tom with maybe another person sitting in. As I understand, like, when Tom reacts to something or when Gail reacts to something, like, this is kind of consistently what they're looking for. It's almost like watching, like, an NBA ref.

I have ones that I like and ones that I dislike, but it's like, I don't expect them to get everything right. I just sort of, like, there are guys that I appreciate the way they call the game because it allows the game to flow, you know? it's not necessarily that they have the objectively right viewpoint of NBA basketball. It's just like this sort of suits my eye for Top Chef. Like I don't get to teach. Let's be honest. Chris was always a Tim Donagie guy. Chris was like that guy is a straight shooter.

That's right. And I like a Donagie game. Just like all my money on these Kings games in the early 90s. It's fine. It's fine. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, it's okay. So I was just saying that that had been, it's interesting that this is coming back.

I also really enjoyed a lot of the personalities that kind of blossomed over the course of the Portland season. So that's exciting. The bigger story here I think is Houston. Houston is a place that I think is perfectly suited for Top Chef and especially these newer iterations of Top Chef, which I think are really tearing down the barriers between what we consider fine dining and what we consider casual dining or maybe what we consider traditional Top Chef preparations versus like cooking. with heart, cooking with soul, cooking with your story in mind, whatever those terms may mean to you. And so I'll be completely honest, like a lot of my understanding of the Houston culinary scene comes from probably the best,

one of the best episodes of TV I've ever seen, which is the Bourdain episode about Houston. Jodges Slim Thug, who makes an appearance in that episode. But just he really captured the incredible melting pot of cultures, culinary cultures that are hitting in this place. that is, you know, I've been to Houston once.

I barely left the hotel. It was for an NBA All-Star weekend. So I don't really have a lot of experience in Houston. Weirdly, Chris was wearing a wire to meet with Tim Donegie during All-Star weekend. It's a longer story. I just sat in a hotel bar with Jacoby for like two days. Sounds great. Few people better at sitting in bars than Jacoby.

I have a lot to unpack there. And I agree with what you're saying. about Houston especially. Can I just briefly, let me put on my Seth Rogan at the Emmy's orange suit and just say, glad Houston came through. I think their first choice of Top Chef Manouse clearly for production reasons was not feasible. Top Chef Jacksonville, you know, similarly off the table. It's bold A.F.

Because we're talking about they did film last year during COVID, like during a pre-vaccine. era. Yes. They also filmed in Portland where I believe 50% of the citizens were wearing masks with birds on them years before the first case was identified. Oh, do you want to redo it? Want to redo it? I'll circle back.

So going to a state that I have a lot of time for and a lot of respect for that does have high numbers right now is bold. Yeah. They think, clearly they think they can handle it. And I actually am fairly sure. they can. I am so happy that they are filming in Houston genuinely from perspective of food and culture and honestly of America, few cities, a lot of it based on the Bordana episode, a lot of it based on just reading about restaurants and where food culture is going and meeting chefs like

meeting. I mean, this is where we're at with their TV friends, but like Dawn, who is a favorite of and also mirrored our journey of being from Philadelphia, going to the Olympics, my journey, less Chris's, and then falling in love with Houston. For archery, for you. Yes, for archery. Few cities, I think more emblematic of where food is going in America than Houston. It's so exciting. And they did do the Texas season, which already, I feel like, fine, just go and focus on one place.

But as I was reading about this, I think they skipped Houston. They were filming mostly in Austin, and they went to Dallas, and went to San Antonio, but they did not really engage with Houston in that season. So couldn't be a better choice. Very excited about that. I think to your other point about the judging panel, one thing that the last two years of Top Chef has taught us, without question, is just how nimble they are and how, what smart watchers of their own show,

the producers are. And so my guess is, and again, the facts on the ground, case loads on the ground may affect this. But the fact that they are bringing back the All-Star Mentor Judging Panel, to my mind, does not mean that there won't be outside judges this year. I think the goal would be to integrate that successful thing that they learned from the COVID year and then open it up slightly as necessary. It also protects them because if something happens day of, or we're supposed to shoot with this incredible chef or we're going. Somebody has to go into protocol. Right. We have guests and judges.

And I think before, and we should mention the announced judging panel. And again, like, probably like last year, it will shift slightly or more surprises to come. But Tiffany Derry, who I think should have had a bigger part last year. She was so good on Top Chef Jr. Hung, season three winner, I want to say, two winner. Stephanie Isard recently from Chicago to Los Angeles. She opened here. Melissa's back.

Thank goodness. Kristen's back. Thank goodness. Kwame's back. Sam. Handsome Sam. from season two making an appearance, Brooke Williamson and Claudette, all listed as the, as the guest.

Brooks in the mix. Did Plyer provisions open back up? I got to check. Brooke is a veil. And I'm here for it. Brooke also has a thriving show on Food Network. I mean, she is. She's, she's, I don't think this is a secret.

I follow Brooke on Insta. I smash the L's whenever she posts, big supporter, big fan. But half her posts. So like, okay, her posts are like, there's three categories. There's here's my handsome husband and handsome son at one of our restaurants. Or sometimes in Montana, which she seems to have a place that she goes. Two, here's me with Kristen Kish, my best friend and life partner slash top chef for Eves. Three, here I am with famed barbecue chef Rodney Scott and Carson Cressley late of Queer Eye on a ranch.

Doing like a bit? That's the other show that she's on. And I experienced it only through her being like, looking fresh in boots and like her and Carson Cresley. So it's working for her. It's great. I have not been to a restaurant. So I can't. I can't say.

You and Caya think I could make or break her restaurant with my Insta influencing game. Kai, have you ever been to plier provisions? Yeah, I have not to eat, but I got a drink there once. Classic Caya. It was very close to where I went to call it. You think that dude, Abel is the weekend? No, Kaya is the weekend. Ladies and gentlemen, our queen.

So we look forward to Top Chef coming back. I'm excited to Survivors back. So a lot of my reality faves are back in the cut. Last reality fave, me texting you screen grabs of the Northwater at 1043 p.m. Is there anything you would like to add about the Northwater? I feel like this has been not unlike 0-00. Yes. The people who I have gotten to get into Northwater who have gone on the trip.

with me. They've come back different men. And invariably, they are men. But like, they are still, still, they come back changed. They come back like they've been somewhere. And now they, like, they have, they have seen things. Shout up. Ryan Rissillo loves Northwater. Tim Simons loves Northwater. Adam Scott.

TV's Adam Scott wrote to say he loves Northwater. So everybody's out. So what are these three people having common? They're men. They're men. It went north. They liked it. You finally finished. Not finally. You watched it in a totally normal amount of time.

I watched it in a slightly compressed amount of time. I am like, I'm thrilled. I don't know if you wanted to have like a separate conversation where we don't spoil anything. But like, you know, I'm really, what did you think? Does it go? Is it up there with the top shows you've seen this? Yeah. I don't want to go too far off because I think a lot of people either haven't watched it yet or, you know, you covered it and you had the director. Andrew Hay and the star Jack O'Connell on the podcast a few weeks ago.

So there's no need to like to revisit specifically just to say that I took my own journey north. It was a little bit longer than Dr. Patrick Sumner's, I think, but much less stressful in that I, I watched two episodes, took a couple weeks off, went back to it. That's not necessarily ideal, but it really worked for me. I really enjoyed the show. I really, usually when I say I admire something, that might be a red flag that I'm not that there's no effusiveness coming behind it.

I actually loved the experience of watching the show. Watching it more slowly really made me appreciate the aesthetic choices and the aesthetic decision making that informed every frame of it. I think Andrew Hay is just, I think he's an exceptional director. He's a really incredible filmmaker. And I'm so thrilled that he made this and that he was allowed to make it.

And the reason I want to go to that word admiration, though, is because I was thinking about why I felt this thing was special, and I know that there are elements of it that are similar to other shows about men discovering the evil that lurks inside their bosoms. From what I understand, there's, you know, there's the other AMC show The Terror, which people love that I was too scared to watch, that in some ways, you know, it feels like a companion piece too. So it's not entirely, and I read some criticism of the show that was like, well, it's not treading any new ground or whatever. But throw all that aside for a moment. And just what I wanted to say was,

I love any time when talented, talented people look at the opportunities that are still out there in TV that aren't necessarily there in film, where you get this confluence. It's happening less frequently, but a confluence of interested talent, visionary, engaged, fired up filmmaker, and whether it's co-pro or international, whatever, just studio saying like, yes, do it. And what do you do with that rare comet of goodwill and cash? Generally, you make a murder show or a cop show or procedural. And look, we love Marevistown. We love these shows. What I love about this was the absolute commitment to doing something to the extreme. Now, am I referring to the unanesthetized ulcer surgery in episode five,

which was like, we've already seen a man crawl inside the still steaming cavity of a dead bear. But we've been around the block with unanesthetized surgeries, though. We've seen it. There's nothing new. They didn't even ask him to bite down on anything. You know what I mean? This is amateur hour. What I mean is it's not just the extremity of, you know, the violence or the gore or whatever.

It's just that they took this story to the fucking limit, right? Literally, in terms of where they filmed it and the way that it looked. and the places that it strove for in terms of beauty, madness, and horror on the edges of human experience. And 0-00, I think, had a similar cinematic goal. And I really admired the entire journey. I just thought Jack O'Connell is a tremendous actor. Colin Farrell is our favorite actor. We have to say that Jack O'Connell actually makes it so that when there are several episodes that Colin Farrell is just not in.

And Jack O'Connell actually never, never, you never really think about it when you're watching Jack O'Cohel. It's such a good performance that you forget. Oh, Colin Farrell is giving like a Daniel Plainview performance, but I'm just transfixed by Jack O'Connell. And then in the margins, I mean, you have Stephen Graham and you have Tom Cortinay, who, you know, is a legend of the British screen in his 80s now.

I didn't realize he's playing a rich person in Hull in England. Tom Courtney from Hull. And as you said last night, would have, What a touching love letter to his hometown. Peter Mullen, whom we love and, you know, and everything from train spotting to Ozark, finally getting to use his native Scottish accent again and it's terrific. It's just one of those things. It is not for everyone, but everyone in it is just playing lights out.

And, yeah, I mean, like, are there quibbles? Of course. Like, the last episode, which I, in some ways, admired more than the series as a whole for what it did, has a lot of ground to cover because I think it is trying to mirror the shape of the Ian McGuire novel. But what you're seeing... Well, I think it's probably trying to also bring a lot of things to conclusion that maybe you felt like the point would be almost to not conclude. You know what I mean?

The whole point would be to be like, I can't really grapple with what's happening here. I guess, and this might be difficult to articulate, but I guess the last thing I want to say about the Northwater to praise it is I think that it's not always... We're not always quick to notice or appreciate when extremely talented people take a swing and an extremely difficult thing. And that level of ambition plus talent, it doesn't always equal perfection. That should never be the goal. But I think seeing something like this fire on so many cylinders was a very engaging and immersive and at times horrifying, but mostly compelling experience. It's a great show.

It's a worthwhile show, whether you love the show or whether you're just interested in where we're at with the medium. Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about another show that we feel like is a very worthwhile show if you're interested in the medium. That's the series finale of Reservation Dogs. So, Andy and I talked, I think, a significant amount about the episodes leading up to this point, especially episodes five, six, and seven, which we thought were a trilogy of some of the best TV that we've seen, if not just this year, maybe in years. and obviously drew a lot of comparisons to Atlanta in terms of the fluidity of tone

that it was able to achieve the way it was able to go from comedy to drama to sort of weird almost folk tales to mild sci-fi fantasy elements and I hope I'm not scaring anybody off with these genre mentions. They are all within the sort of perspective of Sterling Harjo and his creative team

that he worked with to make this show. So the last episode, I think it's, I don't mean this in a criticism. It's a little bit more TV. It's a little bit more, let's get the gang together after a couple of episodes of everybody kind of having sort of their own story, sort of solo, but solo missions, if you, for lack of a better phrase. And they are brought together by a, not typical TV, but like a, there is a storm coming and we all need to shelter in place to wait out the storm, which is obviously a really good environment for people to share how they're feeling about stuff, get some stuff worked out. This is supposed to be this right on the day of the for some at the center of the story.

Their big trip to California, hence the joke I'm in beginning of the pod, their big road trip to California where they're going to get off the reservation and go start a new life out West, so many people have dreamed of doing. So what did you think of the finale? I thought, well, I loved it because I love the show. That's where we're at. I mean, that is a very, That's TV 101 man. Like I just was so excited we got to spend more time with these people. I thought if you take a step back, I thought it was a really interesting episode in that it kind of cast aside some of, if not certainly not all, because it's baked into the DNA of the show. But some of the more formalist experimentation of the last three episodes went away to focus once again on the core four and the mission of the season.

What was so dazzling about the previous three episodes was that suddenly it felt like anything was possible, but all of it was imbued with the emotional thematic feeling of the Corps 4 in their mission. So to suddenly go back to it in a more conventionally told episode, which, you know, to be fair, also included stoned out of his gourd uncle fighting off a tornado on the roof of a house with an axe. So this isn't conventional by any stretch. but I did wonder, and it's a question that I, you know, I hope we could put to the creative team at some point. Was this episode written before they were aware of what they were capable of with the previous three? Not in any way a ding on the episode. It's just that it felt to me there were aspects of it that were like, well, we know we can do this. We've earned this so we can bring it back home.

And maybe part of that is also the feeling of this might be all they get to do. You know, there's nothing is guaranteed in TV. So maybe there was some element of we just want to have a little bit of closure for some of these characters and put him in the same room and figure it out. So all of this might be an overly thought out way of saying, you know, I wasn't floating six feet above the ground at the end of this episode the way I was after the previous three. But it's a testament to this foundation of the show that even if I am on the ground, I'm just, I'm totally thrilled to be there. and there were some killer moments that we should probably discuss. Yeah, you know, I just wanted to point out

that the character of Willie Jack has sort of just become one of my favorite... This is who I wanted to talk about, too. Creations of this TV year. We put a lot of emphasis, I think, or at least I do, because I think I remember creative writing classes on transformational change in characters

that somebody's supposed to go through a journey and start one place and wind up somewhere else. And I think that's often why, like, you know, when you're watching an Apatow movie and you see like, the man child becomes the man, you know, by the end of the movie, takes responsibility for himself. And like, I have, I can take or leave some of those things. With Willie Jack, I really did feel like I was watching someone go through a different phase of their life without it being like written. It didn't feel engineered to watch this person go from who she, was in the beginning of the season to who she was at the end of the season. And so I thought it was

just like an extraordinary piece of writing, an extraordinary performance. And, you know, she winds up being the wisest person on the show pretty much. Yeah, shout out to Paulina Alexis, a truly amazing performance and arc for the year. Characters introduced and you're like, this is a little pistol starter. Like, she's just, she's trouble. She's funny and profane. And, you know, that's enough for a show with many characters and a larger community to kind of try and figure out. What happens with that character over the course of the season is such a beautiful example of just good, smart, thoughtful writing. And yes, I don't want to put the performance. The performance elevates it. I don't want to make it seem like one thing is more important than the

other here. But sometimes all it takes is just a decision. You know, I'm slight digression. having a wonderful time at the moment reading T.H. White's classic Once in Future King with my older daughter, this, you know, the definitive book about King Arthur and the round table and everything. And it just, you know, makes it more psychologically complex and interesting. And one of the things that I did not appreciate when I read this book at 11 or 12 or whatever is that Lancelot, major character. Everybody knows Lancelot. Yeah. In T.H. White's telling, Lanslot is the greatest knight in the world. But he also is, in T.H. White's words, ugly and hates himself.

It changes every single thing you know or think you know about a character who rides around saving maidens and slaying everyone in his path. It just reframes it, and suddenly everything's a little bit different. And Willie Jack is not exactly Lancelot, although maybe you can make the argument that she is some sort of dragon slayer in this world of the show. But to have the character that you think of as the comic relief be revealed to be the one with the most stable, familial roots and just in her bones respect for and love for her family and have that be a source of humor too. I mean, giving her dad, and we did this last week, but shouts to John Proud Star who's just delivering a wonderful performance as her father, you know, giving her dad a $50 gift certificate. The coupons for the buffet at the casino because she remembers her parents. anniversary. It's all those little decision-makings that are just little, little decisions that are a little bit off from what you expect that set up beautiful moments like her speech in the church basement

that is corny because it's supposed to be. It's emotional and it's plainly emotional and it's earned. And I just, I love a show like this that allows you to catch up or at least presume a glimpse of the creative process behind it and then you see the dividends that it pays. Yeah, for sure. I mean, do you have much of a feeling of I saw some stuff in some reviews that I was reading about speculating like, you know, will there be sort of basically parallel track stories?

Will Jackie and O'ora's trip to California be something that gets documented or is it going to, you know, obviously we can't even, we don't know, like they could start the next season and Nick O'Laur could already have come back. Whether or not there needs to be basically a fixed setting for reservation dogs or whether reservation dogs could be anywhere

that these four main characters wanted to go. Because I kind of feel like it's going towards the ladder where it's... Yeah, it's a state of mind. You could have, you know, Jackie's trip to California as a standalone episode, or Jackie and Allura's trip to California. I agree. I mean, Alora's around.

The other thing we should note is that Devery Jacobs, who plays Allura, is joining the writing staff for season two, which is very cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's the larger thing, that it's something that you carry with you, that is this place that has defined them

and, you know, cared for them is a state of mind as much as anything else. So I think that the show's borders could very much expand and contract. I think this is a good problem to have. But my other takeaway from the season is, you know, they've learned now, maybe like Atlanta learned or assumed after its first episode or two, the device of four kids wanting to get out of this place, you don't need it. They can go, they can come back.

There's plenty. They leave behind. You can make a whole episode about White Steve, you know. why not? There's so much here. I think that the good problem to have is where do we go? You know, how many of these do we chase down? Like, Zahn McLarendon's performance as big as the cop is one of my favorites of the year,

one of my favorite characters of the year. I didn't know shit-ass was like that common a phrase. Maybe it's not, but I think it's coming back. But, you know, it's just a- After Matt Sarison's mom, grandma talked about it. Yeah. Oh, right. It's such a great character and performance and so weird and odd and like,

give me more him. Sure. Give me more of Bear's mom and her dating life. I mean, there's so many avenues to go down. It's the best place for a show to leave us in the off season. And I, I guess the only question, and this isn't even a question. This is concern trolling of the highest order. It doesn't really matter.

I mean, I've done, the character of cheese, first three episodes, I'm like, yeah, there's the three reservation dogs and then this guy, I love him. Like, you just become totally enamored. He's a light horseman now, man. And they're just capable of so much more than I ever would have assumed after the beginning of the show. How much more Mecco and Most do you want, though?

And for people who don't know the names, Mecco and Most are the little guys, little rappers who are actually from Oklahoma City. Their real names are Funny Bone and Little Mike. and they ride around on bikes and they're just, anytime you see them, you're happy. Yeah, it's a great Greek course trick is to have those guys like always around and just kind of updating us on what else is happening around.

It's great. I mean, that's the concern troll. It's just like, how do you find, what is the true north of your story and what are the things that help you get there? See, I'm not even worried about that just because of what five, six, and seven did. Like maybe, yeah, maybe they have like there's other,

you know, obviously like the thing we thought that the season was about was them going to California. The thing it's really about is them grappling with Daniel's death. So what's the kind of A and B of the next season? But I have 100% confidence that they'll figure it out. Also just, you know,

the idea of people wanting to get out of a dead end town is an extremely old trope in film, TV, pop songs, everything. It's like most of music, yeah. It's worth noting, and maybe there's a parallel to be drawn between this show and The Killer's new album. Who knows? But Sterlin Harjo, in interviews that he's done, talks about the fact that, you know, he went to the Sundance Labs early.

He spent time in Los Angeles, but he's never left Oklahoma. Like, we're talking about a show that is flirting with that trope of they need to get out of here. But it's actually about people at an age when they are maturing into their awareness that this is, there is value here too. And so I think ultimately they are not going to leave for whatever that means and whatever else they can turn it into and evolve to become. I think that's exciting. I also just, since we're doing a little writer's room gossip, there was a big expansion of the writer's room. You can read about it if you Google or check the trades.

But I'm very happy to see Dallas Goldtooth, who plays the Warrior. Yeah. Who had a great performance in the last episode. He's joining the writer's room. I mean, it's just cool. It's just cool. These different voices coming into the show that could pull it.

It's just like a whole new squad. In the same way, it was, I mean, like, when TV shows are a manifestation of a creative, an actual creative community. like in the same way that Atlanta was in the same way like it's always sunny was when you get like a people who are obviously a crew have made this show

it can just go anywhere and you just feel like you've just stepped into a whole new library of books to check out you know I feel like that's what Andrew Hay felt too with the Northwater where he was like I can show you seal slaughter whale slaughter yeah or bear or it's or or ulcer surgery

so yeah knives can go in a lot of different things you know it's funny speaking of the sort of the creative community thing. That kind of leads me to Midnight Mass, which you're going to hear my interview with Mike Flanagan and Trevor Macy next. So Mike Flanagan has obviously been making some of the most unique television on air anywhere, streaming or otherwise for the last few years. He started. He's a really, really excellent horror film director. He's made the Ouija sequel was one of these really underrated gems, Hush. He's just Gerald's game. He's made a bunch of really

great horror movies. The, uh, Dr. Sleep was his sort of entree into, um, I guess IP, getting into the Stephen King, Kubrick world. But over the last few years, he's made now three series for Netflix that, um, are so, they're essentially like otorist TV in a lot of ways in terms of their tone, in terms of their pacing, in terms of how deliberate they are, in terms of the way that they sort of calibrate bringing in scares. It's, it's a very unique vision of horror. I wouldn't necessarily say horrors besides the point, but he is clearly interested in certain ideas about family trauma, things that pull families together and break them apart, and memory and community. And so each one of his shows are basically about the same thing with different executions.

Midnight Mass is probably his most, I would say, like, adventurous or a breathtaking example of this work. And I really don't want to say too much about it because there are things that happen at Midnight Mass that I think would be great for people to just experience on their own. So that is a weird way of saying, you know, if you don't really care about spoiler stuff, I would just go ahead and listen to this interview. If you want, just kind of keep an eye on the fact that I did this interview. I wanted to have it up because with Netflix stuff, people might watch it this weekend and be done. And, you know, I wanted it to be up there. So you, I do talk with Mike and Trevor about things that happen in Midnight Mass that you may enjoy.

just finding out on your own. There are twists, there are spoilers that are talked about in the interview. I tried that to get into super, super minute detail so that if you have a different tolerance level, you can do that. But yeah, so coming up next is my interview with Mike Flanagan and Trevor Story from...

Did you talk about the whole series? We did, although I did not talk about, I didn't really get into like super fine detail about what happens in the end. At the end, they all go to California? They do. Yeah, it's great. They actually live right on the same street as me.

I heard they were doing a smashburger pop-up this weekend. That's great. Andy, we will be back on Monday. Maybe we'll talk a little morning show. We'll get into some other stuff. We're still, you know, we're two weeks out from succession. But yeah, a lot of good stuff on right now. And, yeah, only murders in the building.

Maybe we'll hit that again. So, yeah, we have plenty of stuff we can chat about. Let's get into the interview. I want to hear it. Okay, let's get into it. Thanks to Kai McMuller for producing. We'll be back on Monday. The playoffs are here.

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Mike and Trevor, thank you so much for joining me. I've been stuck on this island all weekend watching this series trying to get ready for this interview. So it's a thrill to talk to the people who made it. Mike, why don't we start with you and with the germ of the idea? Because I know that this is something that you've been thinking about and working on and toying with for quite some time.

I'm curious whether or not the idea for the show almost predates the idea for the show in the sense that like, do these things that were inside of you that you had been toying around with for maybe longer than you've been a filmmaker, because it feels like a really personal story. That's, I mean, you said it. That's very, very much it.

You know, I was raised Catholic. I was an altar boy. A lot of the ideas that animate this show are from when I was a kid. And to the point that I don't even remember exactly when this started to come together as anything. I do know that I, I had started it initially as a novel and had written a bunch of that.

And then it had gotten away from me. And then I tried it as a screenplay. And I first showed it to Trevor. I know I worked on the screenplay before we made Oculus, because I handed him like 150 pages of it before Oculus. Well, we were in post for Oculus. We were in post on Oculus. And that 150 pages was barely to midpoint.

So it was clearly never going to be a movie. But yeah, this one more than anything else is very genetic for me. It's questions that have been in my head since I was a kid and are still there today, a lot of which are unanswerable, I think. But yeah, this is a really big one for me. And Trevor, for you, I mean, I was curious whether or not, do you feel like this series had to come third in the order of series that you you guys have been making and that there needed to be lessons learned from Hill House and Bligh

Manor and obviously the other collaborations that you guys have had Oculus as you mentioned to teach you certain lessons to learn certain procedures. What was it about the when you guys decided to do this? Well, you're giving us a lot of credit because well in that we first pitched this in 2014 as a TV show and it hit the ground with a thud so we didn't get to make it And but I think, and you should speak to this too, like there's, in terms of craftsmanship, there's been a lot we've tried on for size since that you see in play here. And, you know, I think, you know, Michael speak to the evolution of his own worldview. But I think the ideas and the execution both are so much more fully formed than they would have been had we made this when we originally wanted to that it resonates for me in a much more. powerful way. And so yes, I think is the answer to your question. I think it's like, I think everything else in a very meaningful way was leading up to this. Yeah. And I think as well, to your point about not being quite ready for it when we first took it out as a pitch. You know, there were a lot of

ideas about religion in the very beginning of this when we started putting it together, where I hadn't yet really kind of figured out what I believed. And there was a lot in this about alcoholism and about addiction. But if we had made the show in 2014, we would have made it before I was sober. Yeah. And I wouldn't have really known a lot of what I was talking about. So yeah, I'm very grateful, actually. We didn't get to make the show before now.

I don't think we could have done it completely. the way Trevor said. I think we also learned an enormous amount about television from The Haunting. And Hillhouse and Bly are very different animals and came with their very different lessons, but those lessons were very loud. And I think it's telling as well

from an experience level that the experience we had making this show is by far the most rewarding and positive and kind of terrific production experience. We didn't have that with the others. And I think we had to find our way to it in a very specific order. I'm curious about what some of those lessons might be, if you don't mind sharing them.

It seems like these are now, this is your third one for Netflix, and it just feels like this is something that at this point, I would imagine it's not become old hand, but you know, okay, I can't do that. We can't expect to do this and make our day or expect to do this. Have it, like, what are some of the lessons you learned going into this? Well, the production side of things, I'll start with that. Like, the production on the show was really defined by the pandemic. We were the first series up in North America.

We started August 17th of last year. And we didn't, everything we kind of knew about how to make a day, we had to throw out the window. Because you had to, you know, introduce COVID protocols. And it was difficult to get into Canada where we shot. And it was, you know, we couldn't make the same assumptions about bringing in crew or bringing in cast. And a lot of the production techniques, because we both been at that a while, we had to kind of throw out and relearn. But I think the more important, and we can talk about that more, because I think that from a crucible point of view, having us all in that situation really kind of bonded the cast and crew. and I think you can feel that on the screen

in a way that I'm very proud of. But I think the more important lessons were those of storytelling and character in terms of why it made a difference in shooting it in 2020 versus shooting it in 2014. And we learned a lot about how to work with Netflix better and how to anticipate the reach of their audience is just extraordinary,

and we know how to take advantage to that a little better than we used to. But I think you should talk about this. It's really the more fully formed ideas that I think we're benefiting from. I think one of the big lessons I took away from Hillhouse, just from a writing perspective, you know, we were trying very hard not only to tell a complete story over the course of the season, but we were also trying to do what we thought was right for episodic storytelling. So there were characters and plot lines in Hillhouse that were introduced and resolved in single

episodes. Yeah. Talking about stuff like, you know, Luke's friend Joey and Theo's investigation with her patients and things like that, that we really thought at the time, it's like, this is how you approach episodic television. You need to give people set up in resolution. And I think one of the biggest lessons that I took away from Hillhouse was that I really didn't want to do those kind of things.

You did not want to make episodes of Miami Vice. Yeah. That, you know, the elements of Hillhouse that I connected with the most and enjoyed the most were our through lines. We're about taking characters from the beginning to the end and letting the story kind of dictate where it was going. So I think Hillhouse taught us how to trim fat in a way to not pat out the story or not feel like you have to grow other branches to hold it up. But rather to make sure that the characters and the situations that you're creating are strong enough to hold it on their own. So that was a huge lesson in writing. How do we trim the fat?

How do we make it lean and efficient and have the characters in the story that are present from the first page dictate where it goes? And then I think Blyte taught us additional lessons because Bly was very much about inviting a lot of other people into the process and making a show that was taking advantage of

a lot of different perspectives. I think it was successful for what Bly was. That's a lesson that applies way more to the Midnight Club, which we did right after this, which is very much about, it's a show about bringing different storytellers together. Right. And so we learned a ton from that. But what it also did was reinforce how to approach Midnight Mass and how to kind of make it as lean and singular as we could.

I think in addition to that, there's always the growth that you hope happens in every job about how to work with actors. to weather the pressures of a long shoot. Any kind of show like this and Hillhouse taught us this in a profound way when you're living with the same people and working on the same story and inhabiting these characters for long periods of time, it takes a toll. Yeah. And so how do you brace yourself for that and do the best work that you can and make an

environment or other people can do the best work that they can? So all of those lessons came to play. I think the fascinating thing that happened in the middle of this was, you know, we were poised to shoot.

We'd already prepped the show. We were days away from shooting and the world shut down. Yeah. Oh, we were supposed to shoot on Monday, March 16th, 20th. Yeah.

Right. And on Friday, the 13th, we came, I think you and I got to the office about 815 that morning, in anticipation of a meeting, ready to like, you know,

because you're vibrating a certain level of energy. the last, you know, the last work day before you shoot. And by about 10.15, Netflix had decided to push pause on all of their North American production. And we were scrambling to get everybody out of the country. Get everybody out. Wow. So is that right after the NBA shut down?

And that was like right, was that like the Monday after that? It was, uh... NBA was down, I think, before us. Yeah, just a couple days before us. Okay. So I don't remember the exact date, but we were, there was sort of, we knew there was some iffiness in production that week, but Netflix to their credit, like opted, you know,

they made the safe choice and a, well, I mean, I don't mean that like that. I mean, the safety of the, the choice prioritizing the safety of their casting crew. And, you know, we appreciated that and it was the right thing to do in hindsight, but it was such a radical downshift that, you know, we are, Mike and I both spent the next few weeks really worried about, um, God, are we actually going to get back up? Yeah, are we ever going to make the show? Because we care deeply about it, but our partners at Netflix were incredibly steadfast about it.

And we tried not to entirely let on that we were worried it wasn't going to happen. It was wild, though, when we left. I remember from the plane. Well, you left a few days later. Yeah, because I was going to ride it out initially. The initial thing was, oh, we didn't know how long this was going to go. I was going to stay on the ground with the production and just wait. Right.

It became very clear that that wasn't going to be an option. It was not going to be two weeks. Yeah. This was not going to be a few weeks. We thought it was going to be three or four weeks. I remember talking about that. It was wild. Thank God I'm not an epidemiologist.

I mean, you probably could be one by now. The amount of work in particular that you've shouldered of just managing all of that. But I remember getting in the looking out the window of the airplane when we left Canada and Crockett. We built these sets at Gary Point Park right on the water in steveston, and you fly out over it, which is a sound problem later when we were shooting there. But you fly out right over it. And I looked out the window and I saw our sets there and there's nobody there anymore. Everybody was gone.

And it was really like we're leaving these buildings, we're leaving these houses just out in the elements by the water. They were supposed to shoot on Monday. And they were there. They were left there for six months. What was it like when you first went back? By the way, because they looked great. They looked amazing. Yeah.

Weathered and they had like grass growing under them. And our production designer, Steve Arnold, who did a fascinating, you know, wonderful job, said that we got, you know, half a million dollars of free greens work just because we'd let the weeds grow under the houses. Yeah. It was, it was wild. It was a very strange thing. But, but yeah. So, and then, and then that bubble when we got back and we got everything.

back up and we were kind of the canary in the coal mine when it came to early COVID protocols. And we were already shooting when the trades had all these headlines about like the first productions are going up next week. It was like, we've been shooting for six days. And we were like, we're not going to tell anybody. If something goes wrong, we don't want to be the ones on the on the covers. We never shut down. We went straight through. And so that, that, that same feeling of like efficiency and meticulousness, but also that at any second, this whole thing could disappear.

And we were on the brink, you know, hanging by our fingernails. And I remember feeling the case is getting closer. Oh, we have a positive test offset. You know, oh, we have a positive test, you know, near set. Oh, we have a positive test in the office and feeling like we just kept kind of neo-dodging bullet up until one day the show, of wrapped. And it was like, you know, none of the other shows ever existed in this kind of pressure cooker. And the result of it was a cast that's more bonded than I've ever seen.

Yeah. And a crew who, you know, there were crew members. We didn't know what they look like. Yeah. Yeah. Just the eyes. Yeah. Everybody has that. Your face doesn't look like that. Yeah. And it's like, oh, that's your face. I've been working with you closely for six months now. And that's your face. Interesting. from here up. Yeah. But it was surreal. So I think, you know, well, we took a long time on that answer.

I'm sorry. No, it's totally fine. I mean, to get there and do this. You know, you mentioned being meticulous. I thought that one of the things that really leapt out of me, and we can get into some of the more specifics about the series now. So if anybody is thinking about trying it out and they want to just sort of hit pause here and then come back.

And once they've watched it, it's obviously a show that plays its cards close to its vest for the first few episodes. little bit. I think close Mike Flanagan watchers may sort of have a sense of what's happening. It's probably not all going to be sunshine and roses. But I was just really amazed by the immersion into the kind of ritual and detail, the minutia of mass, of the experience of going to church. And the almost like reverential, or maybe reverential is or isn't the right word, but like omniscient kind of dedication you kind of showed to like, capturing that experience, both at the point where it can be an incredibly lonely one when no one's

in church and no one's listening, and then when it can kind of border and tip into almost cultish to behavior, frankly, towards the end. And so, were you nervous to make a show about God? It's obviously, and church, I mean, this is obviously not like a, yeah, man, I mean, like, other artists have definitely, like, had issues when they've tried to take on these ideas. Sure. Yes is the answer. Big yes. Big time nervous. And I think part of it was that we didn't want it to be misunderstood, that we didn't want people to think we were coming after religion or confronting religion, that this was a show that was more questioning fundamentalism and had corruption within a belief system. Now, the prism by which I understand that and by which I grew up is Catholicism. And so, what you're going to see there is, yes, a very meticulous and respectful presentation of Catholicism, because I felt like if we're going to have any serious discussion about it, we had a responsibility to do it right.

And that meant making sure that our mass was correct, that, you know, down to the set deck, making sure that we were not taking any liberties with the religion itself so that we could have a respectful discourse about ideas like corruption and fanaticism and the kind of thing that can turn a group of people who have good ideas and good intentions into a cult without saying Catholicism is a cult, just saying that it is vulnerable to that kind of thinking like any belief system is. And I think, you know, we see it. all over the world. We see how easily faith can be tipped into something else.

We see it politically. We see it. I remember on January 6th watching the news and saying, yep, this is still always going to be relevant because animating people, once you encourage them to put their faith and thus their behavior, in the hands of any charismatic leader or any set of ideas, animating them into action that otherwise they might never have entertained. That's something we see play out historically again and again and again and again and again and again. And that isn't an indictment of religion or Christianity that, you know, hopefully is an indictment of fundamentalism.

Well, yeah, and there's going to be some perceptions about the show that you might, that those who haven't seen it might harbor, right? And it's, you could, you could think of this as, you know, or you could perceive this, let me say it that way, as, as anti-religious or anti-Catholic or anything. And it's not. It's really, we really wrestled hard to provide a balance in the presentation and articulation of ideas that, you know,

such that we were not, like, yeah, we're equally critical of everything. And there has to be a balance between characters who have differing beliefs. And it's, you know, we do, the show comes down on the side of moderation and kindness and empathy. And forgiveness. And forgiveness. Yeah. Which are very Christian traits. Yeah.

But it doesn't come down, you know, for or against, you know, much of anything else. But to your, to your question, I was scared because my parents. are still devout practicing Catholics. Right. So I was scared throughout the development of this as like, I'm doing something, I'm working on a show that just the very subject matter is going to be striking as close to home, literally home, as anything I've ever done.

And I would go to them at times and say, this is what the show's about, this is what I want to do with it, this is how I feel about it right now. And over the years, those things changed. Those perspectives changed. And I was very nervous finally showing them the show. Yeah, I can imagine. And they love the show.

Good. And that made me feel like we did it right. And I think it directly challenges some things for them. But they came out of it feeling respected and grateful and engaged by the conversation. And that was when I really felt like, okay, we've managed to thread at least that needle. But I was terrified. My wife is a lapsed Catholic. And I will say that this was the first time I've ever heard her sing along to, were you there

when they crucified my lord, which is a personal favorite of hers, I guess. But it was also like, whoa. And she's like, you just remember all this stuff. It's baked in. It's like it's actually muscle memory. But she and I both have responded a lot, I think, to two specific performances. One, the character of Bev is fascinating to me because one of the things I love about the ensembles in these shows, but specifically in Midnight, is that every one of the characters

clearly understands themselves as the protagonist of the story. you know what I mean? And maybe they don't have equal screen time or whatever. But Bev is so strongly committed to the ideas that she has. And she's acting almost as like an attorney interpreting law, interpreting scripture as to what justifies what Pruitt's doing, what the angel is doing, et cetera. And I thought, I was curious, when did you guys start basically going back through the Bible and finding the vampire defense strategy, like legal defense strategy. I mean, it's an,

because honestly, you're watching it and you're like, that's pretty compelling, you know? It's one of the things that I learned very quickly when I started to really study religion. And I think you can grow up Catholic, you can be an altar boy for 10 years and not know the Bible.

It is read to you in very specific, selected chunks every week. And those chunks are very malleable. They can be made to apply to any number of ideas. And that's the incredible and dangerous thing about the Bible. It is very malleable to the point that, yes, we were able to go through it and make a biblical justification for vampirism. Very easily, actually.

That was not hard. Yeah. Well, I mean, and there's so much sort of shared iconography behavior, You know, like in terms of this ideas of communion, ideas of sacrifice, ideas of, you know, I would imagine that they became almost creepy, honestly, like, as you kind of like start to put that up on a whiteboard. Oh, yeah. But it's, you know, it's a, you look at like the Westboro Baptist Church, right, who are

carrying signs from Leviticus and Deuteronomy around. They, they pretend to be an expression of Christianity, which, at its heart encourages one to love their neighbor as themselves and to forgive, yet are holding up very cherry-picked biblical quotes to justify straight up brutal hatred of their fellow men. That's a fascinating thing that you can find, I think, in any belief system that's based on scripture. When you take short pieces of it out of context and you claim this is the word of God, you can take those words and put them in all sorts of different configurations to support all sorts of atrocities. And that's one of the points of the shadow.

And it's not an indictment of the scripture or of religion. It's meant to also just demonstrate how easy it can be to manipulate and to manipulate well-meaning people. I think Bev is very well read and Bev knows the Bible. And so she can weaponize it. but the ways we as people can justify the things we do to each other or justify a belief system even as we start to corrupt it as we start to change it. That's a fascinating element of human nature. And for me, I didn't read the Bible until I was in college.

I didn't actually read it. And that was the thing that kicked the whole thing off for me is that it occurred to me that I'd never read, that I espoused belief in it. And so I finally went back and read it, cover to cover, and went, wow. And there's so much in there that is clearly the product of its time and violence and horrible things. And as a fan of horror fiction, there's just a wealth of terrifying, awesome things there to play with.

So yeah, to go through again and to kind of cherry pick the text for our purposes and for beds, you know, wasn't difficult and it was really fun and a little frightening in how well it could be applied. And even things I thought at one point in the writer's room we talk about like, well, we can't, we can't get away with explaining why a vampire bursts into flame in the sunlight. And it turns out you can't. that there's a passage for that. Did you guys have a Bible research assistant who was like, all right, give me like two hours. I got to go and check it out. Was this just like in?

Well, first of all, you'd be really surprised. One knows the Bible. I really love it. Yes, I retained a lot of it. But yeah, we had Bibles. We'd go through. A lot of it, though, these kind of things left an impression on me, especially the book of revel.

Yeah. And, you know, those kind of ideas and the imagery kicks in pretty hard for me. And so when it's about like, oh, yes, let's talk about, you know, pouring out the bowls over the sun and what that means. And I bet there's a passage in Revelation that we can apply to this kind of nightmarish imagery. It's just about going back and looking. And it turned out there absolutely was. And then it just became about which version of the Bible are we reading, which translation of the Bible are we reading, which one are we going to quote? How do we, which one would Bev read? You know, there's a lot, there's a lot there to play with. So, so yeah, in a lot of ways, this show is the culmination of a lot of, a lot of research into the book itself, but also a lot of just strange connections that

have always popped up to a lot of us who worked on it. Trevor, I wanted to ask you because before I let you guys go, you know, this series has a performance from Hamish Link later that I think people are going to be really talking about quite a bit. It's got almost a unsettling amount of humanity, I think, is obviously, I think, given the things that he has to do. And, you know, he's new to your rep theater, the repertory company that you kind of have developed over the last couple of series. And I was curious, how did he come to be involved in this and what do you think he brought to the role? Well, the story of him becoming involved is actually relatively interesting because we've known

his representatives for a while and been fans of Hamish. And, you know, for whatever reason we had talked about maybe doing other things before, but he's had a remarkably, you know, prolific career, which means he's busy all the time. And we haven't, you know, the stars hadn't aligned. And then this came up and, you know, they fought really hard for it. And, you know, he was, he took a real interest in Father Paul. And well, actually, I think, you know, he did, but also his reps did. And to be honest, like, we were not initially, he wasn't the first person we thought of.

I don't, I don't think there was somebody in Mike's head when, when he wrote it. No, there wasn't. And so there, but there wasn't. So we didn't have a developed. We wanted X. It was pretty open. It was very open. But, you know, but I don't, I think it's fair to say, like, you know, so no one was top of mind and

therefore Hamish was not top of mind. But he fought really hard for the part. I mean, he has no business reading and he did. Yeah, he doesn't have to audition for things anymore. And hasn't for years. But he really felt he did. He read the scripts and he felt so passionately about the role that he came in and, you know, put himself on tape. And, you know, first of all, you have to pay attention to that when an actor of his caliber is willing to do that, it's, you know, it just belize, it shows a certain amount of passion that you can't ignore. And, and, you know, And that was born out in the performance. I mean, he, I guess he's absolutely one of the most prepared actors we've ever worked with.

Yes, he's actually one of the most thoughtful, intellectual humans we've ever worked with. But I think what differentiates him in this role is like the, the pathos and the humanity that he brings to a part that has to do some pretty awful things. Yeah. But really makes you feel like you would do the same thing with. the best of intentions. And that's his, that's a particular gift of his that I'm super grateful for every time, you know, I think back to the show or watch it. And his audition, you know, I should point out, the scene he auditioned with was the first

AAC. Yeah. It was, it was a 15-minute audition scene. Like, he didn't, he didn't take a softball audition. Yeah, he's not messing around. Yeah. And like we said, he doesn't have to audition at all. So to come in and prepare that much material and swing for it.

And the performance was great. And he read with his reader in the audition was Kate Siegel. She read with him as Riley. Wow. Audition piece. And it's an amazing tape. I hope you get to put it out in the world sometimes. It's really neat to see it.

But he did such an amazing job. It was clear that he was going to be playing a character that was not the kind of mustache twirling antagonist that the park could be. Or like the Jim Jones cult leader. Yeah, the revival tent guy. Yeah. He was doing something that we've never seen before. And while this is the first time you've seen Hamish in one of our shows, it is not going to be able. And he's, he is squarely in the family now and very excited to be there. So I think you're going to see him with us again very soon. I can't wait to see what he does next with you. And I can't wait to see what you guys do next. I don't want to take up too much more of your time.

So thank you for talking to me today, man. Oh, are you kidding? Thank you. It is such a pleasure. And I hope everybody in your world is good. Yes. Happy, healthy, and well. Yeah, you too.

Thank you guys so much.