The Watch - The Return of ‘Winning Time’ and the Beginning of the End of ‘Reservation Dogs'

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about their summer vacation watching habits, which include ‘Special Ops: Lioness’ and ‘Drops of God,’ as well the recent trend of their personal viewing interests diverging (1:26). They discuss what makes ‘Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty’ entertaining, the lack of significant change in the second season, and whether or not the dramatic elements of the show land (11:55). Next, they talk about the first three episodes of ‘Reservation Dogs’ Season 3 and their thoughts on the beloved FX show coming to a close (34:43). Then, Andy surprises Chris with a mystery segment before briefly reacting to the ‘Maestro’ teaser trailer (42:25). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kai Grady and Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our run. world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move

forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the bar. first time, long time. It's Andy Greenwald. This is a wild experience. I thought this would be cool.

So Andy and I are recording, this is the first time we've ever recorded in Philadelphia. Yeah. Yeah. We're both here briefly. Yeah. Family business. Separate missions.

Keep it in the family. And then we were like, where should we record? We should record while we're here. Because we've never done this in Philly together after 10 plus years. Of course. And my first thought was maybe my parents' apartment. But when I looked at the counter space,

there were six bottles of Starbucks creamer and multiple bottles of, the French is mustard on everything, as well as every New Yorker published since 1991. So that was out. My mom has the ones before 91. So that's what's on her kitchen. They should really combine. I know.

We even have quite a library. So we decided to do this at my favorite bar at Bad Brother, which I don't know if Bad Brother is zoned for podcasting. Oh, it's a great question. Yeah. So if you hear any background noise, if you hear any sounds of life, that's just the way small businesses in America works. That's just the musica de la Caye, as we say.

This is just what it is. What's up with you? I haven't seen you. I haven't seen you socially, but I haven't seen. We haven't recorded in a while. We had pre-recorded our mailbag. That was the mailbag where I was like, if the strike ends tomorrow, that was two weeks ago, right? Yeah, how's the strike going? I mean, I can't pretend that I've been on the front lines. Um, but is there, is there any news coming out of it? Is there any offers? Is there been any negotiations? The, first of all, I hope that the majority of our listeners just have a media blackout, except for this podcast. You guys, start talking about Fulton County.

Guys, things are going crazy. On Friday, the AMPTP delivered a set of responses or proposals to the guild. And then my only official take or unofficial take is that I think that it must have been somewhat serious or substantive because the Guild, writer's guild email to all of us was quite sober. Okay. So there might be some movement this week. There might not. We don't actually know. but it does feel more substantive than it has for the last three months.

So you've been on the road just like I have. We've been traveling around the eastern seaboard. What's your vibe? How do you feel about finally getting back to America? Well, what do you mean? The real America. Oh, the beast ghost? You got out of your earliest bubble.

Yeah, it's been restorative for sure. I went up to Maine for a little while, and I was going to say, like, when you were on vacation, okay. Do you go on a vacation? and to quote what about Bob from yourself? And do you stop ferociously consuming new content like you usually do? Or do you go, do you like use your vacation time?

How do you use it when it comes to like what you're watching? I actually don't know the answer to this question. Well, you know, I've never said this publicly on the podcast before, but I have two children. So I would say that there's a lot of the watching time is a lot of old favorites. The Netflix film, Namona, been on heavy rotation. haven't talked about that on the pod yet. Always grateful for an opportunity. I feel like I'm letting you down.

We have 40 minutes to Phil, so if you want to go. Well, there's some news. We can get into it. I don't actually have any watching time. Okay. When I'm traveling. Okay. Don't need to make me feel bad about it.

No, no. It must be nice. I can tell me about it. I think I had an opportunity when I saw my parents because they were asking me about television programs. And I was like, you're in luck.

That's something that I can opine about. And there's a level of blankness with which they regarded me when I mentioned the various streaming platforms through which they could view some of the things I was talking about.

It was quite striking. So I was like, I could spend this time showing them where FX's moved. Showing them what Apple TV Plus is. Yeah. Or I could do literally anything else, so I didn't do it.

But actually, wait, this does bring up something that's relevant to your watching interest and your question. There was a, I'm going to, this is a throwback, okay? This is, I feel like this is the second time this has ever happened in our long friendship.

Okay. Um, 1997. Chris is so excited. 1997, a young me visited a young you in your apartment in Boston. This was not the back bay apartment,

I don't think. This was that you had an in-between apartment. It was the first apartment. Yeah, I was on like Queensberry Street or something like that. And it was before you moved in with the dudes in the band. Yeah, so I was living by Phelmae Park by myself. And with, well, I had some mouse roommates. So that was cool.

That was later, right? I didn't see them on this trip. And so whenever I would come to Boston, we would, of course, go record. shopping and get some things. And there was this very intense divide where I was like, generally we have similar tastes and we're good friends. Yeah, it was starting to diverge. During the 12 to the 18 months that we'd known each other. But we emerged blinking into the summer sun or fall, I don't know what it was, from Newberry Comics with very different purchases in our bags. I had a Bell and Sebastian EP. Yeah. And you had promise rings, nothing feels good. Yeah. And I was like, this might be the end of the

road for us. Little did I know I would write a book by that title in four years. But that was a kind of a dividing line for us. And I worry a dividing line because I liked promise ring and you were going in different directions. I like John Sebastian. Yeah, promise ring is good. Did I introduce you to Bell and Sebastian? Wasn't I like you would like this? First of all, how dare you? No, but we did go to a concert in Boston. Yes. In October of 1996 at BU. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So I'm making it, this is, this isn't like red state, blue state. But I am saying, guess which day you are. But wait till you hear my line at his thoughts.

That's what I'm getting to. My point is that we may have reached a fork in the road. Are you worried that we're no longer on the same page? I just think we're turning maybe a little bit into the McDilT of podcasts. You know, there's the hot side. That's you. And there's the cool side. No, the cold side.

That's me. Because I did have time to watch things on the plane. And you watch drops of God. And I watch drops of God, which I love so much. I mean, there's shows that we still agree on. There's shows that we're like, okay, obviously, like, we're going to talk about reservation dogs. The first three episodes have already aired on FX on Hulu,

and then the first episode of the second season of winning time. So we're still doing our job. Two episodes of winning time. The second one went up already? Yeah. Okay. Well, I wonder how the Lakers do, because I don't know. I've seen the second one yet.

Does it work out for those guys? Not yet. But I have a feeling things will turn. And, yeah, but I spent most of my vacation, as it were, well, I watched, I'm very, very current. on end just like that. That's wild. Was that a vacation choice?

You're like, this is going to work for me on vacation, or was that a you and your wife are traveling? I watch it just like that pretty religiously. I have to be completely honest. Where do you put all these takes? You must have a lot of thoughts. Well, my wife and I watch. I'm a big stickler for sex in the city continuity. Oh.

Yeah. So like when I'm watching, I'll be like that doesn't really feel like the Miranda that I know. But also like I was not a big sex in the city viewer. But I know that there were certain episodes that were iconic. Like Carrie had a, you know, a something with a firefighter. point, right? Do you feel like the emotional memory of that Dallions lingers to this day? Like, just the firefighter

part? I don't remember anything else about it. I think Sarah Jessica Parker is an elite comic actress. Really? I think she's really, really delightful. Yeah. So you like the show, you're all in. Why are you being so like confrontational with me? We're just because we're in a bar? No, honestly, I think it's because

I don't have a mic stand. And so I feel a little bit... So you've started out this podcast, you're like, we no longer like the same thing. I feel a little bit like Mori COVID or something. Would you like to know someone who does like drops of God? I'm going to bring him out right now. It's a special guest. Are you worried that we should start doing like one pot a week together and then one pot a week separately where we cover the shows that we want to cover? No, I just want to make sure that we still look, one of the things that the recent indictments have

is that we're just, Americans just aren't talking to each other anymore. You know what I mean? That's what they've shown. There's a lot of talking going on in those indictments. That's true. Perhaps too much. Some signatures. Okay, fair. All right. No, no, I'm not. I just, I just want to know where I want to take our temperature because you are, I wanted to go with you on a special ups journey. Yeah, you didn't really go there. Quite make it. Yeah.

And, you know, I feel like you're not really up on Camille's quest to identify the really rare Italian red wine that will unlock the key to her father's cell. What pace are you watching drops of got at? Well, like a true connoisseur, you know, I have to sort of savor, swirl and sip. I think I got two left. Okay. It's a really good show. We had hijacked together, so like, we're fine.

Okay. Yeah. Is there anything else in entertainment news that has been, like, grabbing your attention? Is there anything else Philadelphia specific you'd like to talk about while we're here? Like, the Eagles? No, just like you have anything related to the city, to being in the city that you feel like we should reflect on for the purposes of the show? I mean, it's just been, it's been an awesome time back on the East Coast.

I, well, so what happens when I come back here is, obviously, I get pretty nostalgic. So I wind up listening to a lot of older music. This was spurred on by the fact that I had no idea this was coming, but I didn't know that you already know this. But there is going to be a re, I guess a new version of one of our shared beloved albums, the replacement's Tim. Yeah. And it's the please, it's the let it be version of Tim, which is essentially like a remixed version of this record that I thought sounded pretty good, honestly. It sounded loud. Yeah.

It sounded really good. And that kind of spurred me into listening to. a lot of like 80s left of the dial call truck which might be the best music ever made. Isn't this, can we just start calling this bear core? Because I feel like Chris Dor and his gang

kind of pushed this back into the middle of table. But this is the thing is I'm finding it's kind of challenging is that you know, when I'm on a when I'm on the elliptical and I'm like, I still need to just such a low key flex, right? Climb to content mountain. I'm like, okay

I got to watch this. This is coming out, this is coming out, this is coming out. But then when I'm just by myself and the way that we consume this stuff and like on Spotify or on on these streaming services, like it flattens out, I stop thinking about what's new and I just start thinking about what I like. I think that's great. I mean, you said something to me the other night and when we're hanging out where you were just like, is it okay if old stuff is just better? I'm ready. I'm ready to make that call. I don't know, look, I think thousands of people tune into this podcast for cutting edge takes. You know, I feel Like, it's finger on the pulse. What's new? What's next? Right?

When you're back here, do you, what do you, do you listen to like old Power 99 mixes? If I still had a Walkman, I would. Yeah. No, I mean, I generally do think, I think the, the thought behind all of this is like, can we find a way on our, um, hyper contemporary podcast full of youthful references and TikTok clips to also celebrate things that we have loved for longer? Because I do think there's a difference. I think there's a difference between our connection to things. Like even, and we're going to talk about winning time in a second, like I'm going to watch every episode of that show. I really like watching that show. I do not think in 10 years we will be talking about that show.

Winning time. Yeah, which is fine. It's fun to be talking about new stuff. But I think I like older stuff more. Let's talk about winning time. Let's talk about these shows being back. And I have a surprise for you at the end of the podcast. I know you like surprises.

He's looking at me like I'm crazy. It's going to be good. We're going to have fun. Okay. So winning time was one of these shows that I actually found surprising that you warmed to so quickly. Really? Yeah. I mean, I know that you like basketball.

Not anymore, actually. Not after the recent news out of our home city. Dude, what the fuck? We're recording this on, what day is it? Today's Tuesday. So I guess this is like our pod for the week, essentially. I might do a solo Lioness pod. You're going to do a special ops lioness tamer pod, and I will listen to it.

If it's solo, will you listen to it? that's the only way I want to listen to it. I can't do what you do. I can't just do like 25 minutes uninterrupted monologue. You don't think so? No. I want you to do it like, remember that guy, Art Bell? Yeah.

The radio DJ would do like. You sound like UFOs and stuff right. Yeah, and you'd be like on all night and just like chain smoking and talking about space. I want that. I don't think you can do that. No. Okay. Winning time is back.

The following that basically. So I did a prestige TV. with House about it with the first episode. It starts out. We get like this sort of, we're thrown into 1984, even though the first season ends at the end of the 1980 season. And this is like the height of Showtime, the height of Pat Riley with the slick back hair.

He's the head coach. Adrian Brody is giving like a gladiator speech to these guys on the bus. Boston is being portrayed as like, speaking of gladiator, basically like Germanic territory in the beginning of gladiator. And it's pretty fun. And then we flash back, we go, like, I was, because one of my major questions about winning time is like the pacing of it. Like, how are they going to, are you going to do a season per season?

How long are they planning on doing this? How long can they keep this cast together? Because a lot of the faces remain the same over the course of five, six, seven, eight years with the Lakers. What did you think of the new season? What did you think of the first episode? Well, I mean, I kind of already burned my preface, which is to say, I really like the show and I'm going to keep watching it. Right. And it is, I think we can talk about specific.

We should also pull out and talk about the macro, which is this and last of us are similar to me in some ways in that they are proof of concept for what I imagine our friend and longtime listener Casey Blois communicates much more artfully when he's talking to David Zazlov and the bigger higher ups at Warner Brothers Discovery as to what they can do that other places can't, which is class shit up. There is a version of this show, no disrespect, that could be, you know, movie of the week. It could be on history. channel, which they make fine things, but it's not, you're not going to get Oscar winner Adrian Brody as Pat Riley. You know, you're not going to get John C. Riley giving one of the best performances he's given in a lot of time. He never gives us bad ones as Jerry Bus, a character who prior to this, I don't think anyone of us would have considered to be like the most. Yeah, I can't wait for them to be like an amazing character study of Jerry Bus. Exactly. I've not wasted too much of my life concerned about his psychology and yet I'm drawn in. Yeah. So the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the

way that they're able to execute these shows that I think that if you just jenga tiled out a couple of the prestigious pieces, it might collapse. Right. Is remarkable. And not my, you know, and I don't think they think of it this way. But if, if HBO's brand is this and every so often an Irma VEP for the heads, that works for me. You know what I mean? This is not exactly like a sellout show.

what I found interesting about the second season was if you go back and watch the pilot of Winning Time, which Adam McCaid directed, I believe. I think so. It was Adam McCaid the fuck out. Yes. It was, you know, direct-to-camera commentary, a bunch of different film stocks,

like swooping all around, like really super energetic, kinetic filmmaking. On-screen commentary written in, crossed out, stuff like that. Partially out of necessity, because I think they were very conscious of, like, taking what's pretty racy, like, uh, like content and like making it a little bit more like ironically palatable for 2022 when it came out. Yeah. And also I think really leaning into something that leaning into the concept that they were taking liberties here, that this was not a documentary. Yeah. They knew that there were things that they were going to get pushed back on and knew

that there were things that they were quite fully like conflating. Sure. If not inventing out of whole cloth. Um, so there was style in addition to the substance, which frankly was pretty compelling. I knew some things about that. I didn't actually know about like Jack McKinney and falling off his bike and all the drama that was baked in reality of that season helped the first season to come quite compelling. You know what I think about a lot of the stories that came out of the first season, even for the second season as well, is sports writing used to be amazing. Because like everything that happens in winning time seems to have like a 3,000 word sports illustrated. Yes. Story about it where they're like deeply reporting it.

With different access too. And as you see in the second season already, like information as currency and as weapons being leveraged by journalists to almost affect the stories that they're covering. So anyway, this is a long preamble to say those stylistic things slowly started to leach away, I think, in the first season, partly because Adam McKay wasn't directing them and people didn't want to imitate his style, but also because like all TV shows, you could start with a style guide, but you basically become a TV show. Well, this is the fascinating thing with this show is like I actually find that it's zeroed in on what it wants to do visually. To your point, it has gotten rid of some of the meta stuff, although there's still some direct camera.

Yeah. Can you believe how crazy Boston is kind of stuff? Yeah. Or like there's the on on magic's cast, the mouth starts talking to his knee, his injured knee is talking to him. Right. But you know, we rarely get to see shows evolve very much anymore because I mean, you'll see sometimes with sitcoms like they'll like they'll level out a little bit more like I when we first started doing the pod, it was not uncommon to see a show discover itself over the course of a bunch of episodes. Whereas now, I feel like because you, especially with something as expensive as winning time, they have to like really kind of have it all soup to nuts figured out. Yeah. So I was almost surprised to see how little it had had changed in the second season. But my thing is,

I agree with you to some degree, but I think that the way that it's changed is that it has just become more conventional, which is not a bad decision. You know, I think you have to, you have to, you have, to you can sometimes feel the sweat of the writers being like how are we going to make an episode of television out of right like what's the tension out of the narrative you know and so okay well kareem had a baby and magic was having okay so we're going to twin these ideas of fatherhood or parenthood we're going to do i mean that's tv 101 that's fine um but what i found kind of surprising in the second season so far is that the the reason almost like the the the reason the show seems to exist in the second season is to be like magic johnson is a hero yeah which is

surprising because Magic Johnson in real life that is also his brand and his story and it seemed in the first season that with the kind of like visual flare and just kind of not giving a fuck about historical record if it was like some game they might be like it was like it was long the last second three and it was like actually they were

up eight but also a little bit like behind the icon like you know Pat Riley was didn't know what he was going to do with his life before he became legendary architect of heat culture or something that you're passionate about. Look, I like two things. It's late for your Taylor-Shared and fucking heat culture. Frankly, that's the same thing. I know. I think.

Pat Riley probably loves Linus. Do you think I should start like a kind of lifestyle called Taylor culture? Talk me through it. And just like maybe like a men's recovery project where it's just like we watch Wind River and think about how to like. Do you go outside and like very cold temperatures and bellow? like what do you like what do you like

speak to horses when I'm doing my solo pod my guest is going to be a horse and the horses is going to be like you're on the same page brother I think to be clear the horse won't be miced

you'll just be talking to the horse that's why it's why I don't know what to look at like with you I'm like I'm staring right into your soul or I look at Twitter yeah the ratio has been shifting

I've talked about this recently on the podcast that like I always remembered a profile of the celebrity chef Ming Sai who was in the New Yorker. I saw the issue recently on my father's bedside table. It was from like 1999. And he was like, how did he learn to become? Was your dad like, I'm going to get to that one. It's a Wellesley, Massachusetts.

There's a fusion restaurant, the cuisine of Asia. But then Ming's like, nobody knows your dad. So it's just really funny. That's accurate. Yeah, it is. It's good. My dad ordered a like an appetizer. that was like a tureen, you know, like duck liver or something, and it was served on toast.

It was like an appetizer to share. But one thing about my dad, like, great, enjoys gustatory pleasures, but doesn't know, like couldn't identify a vegetable. Like if you put three vegetables in front of him and you're like, which one is a pepper, he wouldn't know. Okay. So I looked over to see if he was enjoying this appetizer and he was sawing away at it with his knife and fork.

And I was like, you can pick it up. It's like a pizza or like a toast, you know? And he goes, well, it's just a lot of bones. And I was like, that's, that's bread. Yeah. That sounds like something a Taylor Sheridan character. It's like so, so it is. Yeah, but a Taylor Sheridan character upon finding out that his bread would throw out the plate.

Yeah. Right? What's funny is that like you have this imitation of your dad. Yeah. But sometimes as we've gotten older, I'll just tell you that you sometimes text like your dad unaware of that. This is what happens. So you'll like take a picture of like a new house on the beach and be like, look at this monstrosity. I did that.

Like, is the Stani's dad to do it? That's true. Look, we just, you know, we have our models, right? Yeah, right. So to finish the thought that was irrelevant when I started it, Ming Sai got good at TV because he taped a picture of his kids below the camera. So he was like teaching his kids how to cook. Oh, that's nice. So you can tape a picture of a horse.

To my laptop. To your laptop. You could cut, yeah. And then just. What I talk about what work going on in Syria? Is there anything about your life that you feel like is not Taylor shared and influenced? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, you're like mutually respectful relationship with your life? There's a really solid marriage at the core of Linus. There's a lot of trust, a lot of understanding. Is it the Dr. Dave one? Dave Anabelle and Zoe Salonnet. I'm interested. So I would say, having seen some of it, I wouldn't call that like marriage of the year. I feel like there were some fall lines.

I just think it's like there are two adults who respect one another, you know? Should you, I think you should run this by Phoebe and be like, this is how I want you to see our life. I am the lioness. And sometimes I have to go out into the field. Yeah.

And while I'm out, you fix kids' faces or whatever. But when I come home, the lioness needs to be fed, right? Is she the Linus? No. No, the program is the lioness program.

But she's the lion tamer in that analogy. She's P. P.T. Barnum. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Go back to my Magic Johnson point. your point was like it should pretty valid

which is that and it kind of it speaks to my largest question I have about this which is a really annoying one which is somewhat who is this for I find it really fascinating that you as someone who is like I am broadly aware of this story but I'm not a Jack McKinney expert

I'm not like a Paul Westhead expert I'm not like in the minds like reading about the system that you are finding it probably a little more tantalizing that I am whereas like I think I want way more basketball and way less like, gosh, is magic going to claim this illegitimate child? Will he get together with cookie? Spoiler he does. Will. What? Yeah. And like, I think that they're

doing something interesting with the bus family. There's a lot of like succession flavoring in that way that they've set up like the kids there. But they have like a little bit of a we all know how this works out issue. Yeah. If you know the story, I can't imagine there's that much drama. If you know the story, I think the show still does offer. I mean, you could speak to this more than I could, but it's very charming. And I keep coming back to that, that like, every time there might be a slow moment or a slow scene that I'm not feeling as much, or I'm like, I think Quincy Isaiah is, like, giving a very strong performance that has now become the backbone of the show. But I agree with you. Like, whether magic will grow into the man and leader that we all want him to be feels a little

narratively inert and almost easy. Like, it is weird that he's just like, it's a hero's journey all of a sudden this season so far. But then it cuts away. And it's like Hadley Robinson, I think, is her name, who plays Jeannie Busser. I think it's great talking to Gabby Hoffman, who's just great in this part as Claire. Norm Nixon's real-life son, Devon, plays his father.

He plays Norman Nixon. Every time he's on the screen, just knocks a... I was going to use a baseball analogy. That's not right. He sinks it from downtown. Triple doubles. Yeah. That's not nothing.

You know, but I, but yeah, the who's it for thing is we, I mean, they're just making it. Yeah. It just is emerging. A lot of good effort is being put into it. It's a great ensemble cast. Do you feel like when you watch a show like that and we watch and read a lot of things actually from those eras from like 70s and early 80s? Yeah, I'm reading something right now from the mid 80s, the sports writer by Richard Ford.

What do you think it would be like to be around people who are drinking that much and smoking that much? I mean, I guess it was in our 20s. Never all, I mean, I'm just used eye statements. I saw a picture, I think I shared it with you, a picture of myself from 2003-ish. There's three, yeah. I think I was there. In a bar. It was high-fi.

And I was, like, what was in the ashtray, which was right in front of me, so there's no ambiguity about whose astray that was is, like, truly stunning. Yeah. Yeah. It's grotesque. You put it in work. Yeah. But the thing that's, okay, so the.

So you mean, you mean like, what's it like? like to drink on like an old fashion at like every hour on the hour. Like Adrian Brody is playing someone who is not too far removed from being an elite athlete and is chain smoking and then drilling one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Like full steam ahead with Marlborough breath. That's wild. But if everybody had it, nobody noticed it. So, okay, so here's my question.

Do you think the people of that era were better athletes than we could ever imagine and like actually better than people with hyperbaric chambers? and plant-based diets because they could accomplish that? Or was the ceiling lowered so much because everyone was hung over and coughing all the time? Or was like the constant use of cigarettes like part of their instant recovery? Like I know that like knee injuries are a while, but like guys didn't take nights off back then. Knee injuries aren't that serious according to winning time because magic has his knee opened up by 1980 doctors, sits in an ice tank for a while and then becomes the MVP. Yeah, well, this is a magical recovery.

It's the like his hundred days of being away from the team. And then he's like, I'm fucking back. Can I, um, this is a more personal pod than I guess than we've done in a while because we're here about. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm sorry if we're not going. Like we can talk about the maestro trailer. This is what happens when Kai is out of the country.

So yesterday, uh, woke up and I went for a run here along the river. Beautiful. This is a great city. Yeah. Because I was in a hotel, I didn't have access to my normal like morning routines. So I woke up. Stretching, you mean? No, like make coffee and then like sit around and do nothing, staring into space for an hour and then going out, running.

Text me 17,000. About monstrosities I've seen. So. Brie Larson couldn't act with the cat. She was allergic. What do you think? First of all, you sent that to me. But so then I had a strong coffee out in the world and then put down the coffee cup and then started sprinting.

And let me tell you something. Did it work? It was incredible. Yeah. I have never, I was a golden god. I was, I was just, just the, there was no wind because it's fucking 85 degrees of the 80% humidity here. But I was racing along the river pass. It was just passing, passing people.

I have never felt better. And then your left arm went down. I just smelled toast. But I just wonder if maybe, maybe, you know, my, my one experience yesterday and watching two episodes of season two of winning time has made me rethink a lot about what we think we know about sports medicine. A big, like, body hacking guy? Are you into, like, body optimization? Like, I'm going to live forever? Yeah.

Do you see how many bags of hers potato chips I walked into this bar with? I think you know the answer. We're drinking frosty ice waters. No, do you look at this stuff? I feel like I'm much more aware of it now because of Instagram. So, like, my ads on stories are all for, like, because I think if you do, I got a neck pillow. And that was a real rabbit hole for Instagram. They were like, oh, this guy's interested in sleep.

So a lot of like over-the-counter, hipster Ambien, a lot of like neck things, stuff for like neck pain. Yeah. Which I'm not above. I bought a pillow off of that. Oh, you mean like you bought a pillow off of something you were serviced? Because some girl was like, this is, this pillow is so cold. It's awesome.

Was it Brie Larson? She's like, this helped me get through the scenes. This is stuffed with cat hair. They put a whole cat up in this pillow. I can't wait to see what the algorithm suggests now that it knows you're into horses. It's like just ivermectin ads all the time. That's also Taylor Culture. You want to think you kind of is.

Well, if you're really Taylor Culture, you have a lot of Ivermectin anyway. Yeah, because you get the horse. You might as well. Yeah. No, I read like there was an article. Was it David Marquesi's interview column or he was interview with someone? There's no social distancing like owning your own ranch in Texas. Oh, yeah, I agree.

That is the ultimate in social distancing. No, there was an interview with one of those guys who's just like, I am going to do everything in my power to give myself the possibility of living to be over 100. Well, there's a dude who, like, is using his son as a blood bag. Have you read about that guy? And he's like, every day, like my whole entire day is about living forever. And he's like, he gets like transfusions from his kid. Is it Ashley Schaefer?

But then there's another guy, I think his name's Andrew Huberman. I think this is what I'm thinking of. And he's like, the first thing you should do is you should like, as soon as you get out of bed is without having coffee or anything is go outside and stare at the sun for 15 minutes. That's Taylor culture. That is. That's also a bunch of things I was raised. First, don't look directly at the sun.

I remember being told that. Yeah. Second, brush your teeth when you wake up. Also good. Yeah. And this guy's like, no. just take the pure solar rays needs to get inside your head first. I'm like, here's my new vibe as a middling podcaster in middle age.

New stuff, not that great. Everything else, in moderation. It's fine. Like staring at the sun? Staring at the sun? Yeah, stare at it a little bit, a little bit. Don't say all the way yes or no, it's fine. But you know, there's no nuance anymore, you know?

I know. No nuance anymore. Okay, so winning time. Winning time's good. Winning time's good. I think I have like I'm being a little bit of an annoying basketball nerd. The same things that just did not bother me at all about Moneyball, where people were like, Moneyball really, there was too much Jermaine Die erasure in Moneyball or Mark Mulder erasure.

Well, I mean, I didn't care about that. From everything I've read recently, Michael Lewis is an unimpeachable journalist. He's just buttoned up. Do you think that was he's bad? What happened to Michael O'R? Yeah. No, I don't, I don't, we don't know what happened. We don't know.

We can't. We simply can't say. But in Moneyball, for instance, I don't care about the contributions of that pitching staff. Okay. Or the fact that they had Johnny Damon and Jermaine die. I care about Billy Bean and Scott Hatterberg. Making trades. Yeah, getting rid of getting rinkone.

But with winning time for some reason, I'm like, well, you know, that was not exactly how it happened. But isn't that because one of the issues of winning time is that it doesn't have one specific point of view? Like if the purpose of the show. was the bus family and the front office. It's about magic. And reinventing basketball for a modern era. Right. That would be one thing.

But it is all of the things. And it is trying to give us the soap opera everywhere. And, you know, I've said this a billion times. There are many, many greater sins than being entertaining. And it's very entertaining. And to give the show even more credit, like the first season did build up some pathos, like the Sally Field character arc. Like, it was very, it was enjoyable.

because it was a sports movie at its heart, which follows a certain playbook. Can I ask you a very silly question? I don't know how long the second episode is, but the first one's like an hour six? It wasn't as long as that. Okay. But it was how long was it? In the 50s, I think, yeah.

I'd love to see a like a slightly tighter version of it. Jam-packed. I mean, I think that's also why they gave us the that's why they started us right in the thick of it. Right. With the team that everybody thinks the show is going to be about. Right.

Because at least through two of the first season starts with Magic's announcement, his HIV announcement. Oh, that's right. But it's not the actor, right? Like, didn't it start with the real footage? I think they cut back and forth. I think maybe there's some stuff with the actor. But this season, I mean, spoilers through two and also spoilers through living in reality.

They crap out in playoffs. And that doesn't have the same narrative arc. So letting everyone know, oh, we're going to go to Boston. The Larry Bird stuff is coming. Right. But like in four years? No, it's going to happen this season. My guess is this season is going to get us all the way there.

Okay. I don't know their plan, but I would guess one more season leading through the H.I. Bannerman. Because there's been rumors that they could go all the way through Kobe. No, I want Andrew Bynum. I want to get, you know what I want the last season to be about? The bubble. The 2027 first round pick.

Who's getting it? The one asset they've got left. That's what I want. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for,

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flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com and book your next trip today. Should we do some reservation dogs and then we can do your

surprise topic? Yes. Okay, reservation dogs back for its third and final season. Andy and I have lamented this being the end. We've kind of gone back and forth about this. It's like that second season ends perfectly. That is the culmination in a lot of ways of the story. The show is sort of telling about these kids wanting to not necessarily escape, but experience the wider world.

They want to get to California. They do. They have this odyssey across California. And then the end of the second season. Spoilers, if you haven't seen the second season. talking about the first few episodes. They win the NBA championship at the end of the first season. They become the 2027 draft pick collectively.

Bear says he wants to stay in California. At the end of the second season. But it's also that they complete the circle of the Daniels story, which has haunted it. And I think that it's worth saying sometimes, you know, I'll just say I do this. Maybe other viewers of things do too. But kind of, I do, I think many people do probably, fall in love with the version of the show that they think they're watching. And one of the ways that we've talked about reservation dogs over two stunning seasons has really focused on the fact that, oh my God, this is what I like

to think of is like the dream type of show. It is a sturdy vessel that can contain almost any type of story. And it does. You know, there's horror stories. There's flashback stories. There's romance. There's straight up comedy. And it always, always surprises. I think that that is rarely, the goal of a creator or showrunner, especially in the modern age, and double especially when the creator is a filmmaker like Sterling Hard Joe, who grew up telling stories with beginnings, middles, and ends. That's what made him. And so I think that my enjoyment of the show came from how surprising it felt to sort of drift away from the idea of these four kids and their trauma is the story of the show, which caused me to kind of just overlook the fact that that that,

central story was wrapped up at the end of the second season and caused me to say things, you know, a couple months ago being like, I'm angry, the show is ending. How dare it deprive us of all of the stories of this extended cast in this universe? That was, I think, right around the time that you were like, Barbie looks like the all-time L. So you think maybe I was wrong about that house by the beach. That was just my typical hot take and maybe it'll grow to love it. People like people like a little spice, don't they? Um, You're the best, man. Never any receipts.

No one ever comes with those. Anyway, all of this is to say, I love the show. I do wish it went forever. But when I watched the third season premiere, it was the first time where I felt, oh, there maybe they, maybe they do know what they're doing. But B, maybe it is time to end because this was the first time watching the show

where I felt the seams. To undo some of the, the emotional catharsis of the last episode of the last season to get everyone back but not everyone

felt manipulative isn't the word because all TV storytelling is manipulative but it felt heavier-handed than I was used to from the show.

Didn't make it less entertaining doesn't make me less excited to watch the rest of the season but I was kind of surprised by it. The third episode the Dear Lady

origin story episode is like probably among the best things we're going to see on TV this year, right? That's the thing. It's still that show. If it's not the group hanging out,

I guess sometimes it's like you have like these ideas about what a show is in your head. And then when you actually like go through all the episodes, you're like, oh yeah, like this show makes more left turns than it does drive straight lines anyway. Yeah. So like you get these little portraits and these little short stories. Like I almost think of it as a collection of short stories in a lot of ways. Whereas to your point, maybe those two seasons are the novel. You know, and this is now portraying it more as like a short story.

collection. And in those short stories, like, they're obviously expressing themselves in a much more metaphorical way. Like, those first two episodes of the third season are much more psychedelic and much more, like, image-heavy than they are, like, coherent, like, linear narrative. Although, they have a quest story engine to them. It's just they're about, like, I know, I find it to be, this season's been, like, challenging in a good way. Like, you know, and it also in a, oh, okay, like, this is what you wanted to do in this third season that was different. It's just such an interesting representative of whatever TV is now. Because I think that FX probably does this better than most places,

or at least from what we've heard from people who've had creative relationships there, they really do do the thing that everyone says they do, which is we listen to what the creator wants. Because I do think they certainly as professionals in the business understand the appeal of having a franchise of something that can just run. the way they treated what we do in the shadows, which I love, and full disclosure, I have not watched a frame of this season.

I mean, what we do in the shadows could be their new, it's always sunny. Like that should just go for 20 seasons. And they understand that. And they did the kind of, you know, they did the money ball GM thing where they were like, we're going to renew you for two more seasons right now.

Cost control commitment. You know, we're going to do this. It's kind of like what the Phillies did with Scott Kingery, and that really worked out. You know what I mean? You wrap them up young, get them.

FX boss Matt Clintech. Yeah. That's just for the local heads. All of them. I think they're actually in this room. All of this is to say, like reservation dogs could have been that. But maybe it couldn't. Maybe this is sort of just a straw man argument because Sterling Hard Joe is never

going to make that show. He's never going to just devote the next 10 years of his life just hanging out with these exact kids. I still think, I said this a couple weeks ago, they're going to be in business with him for a while. And we will see some of these performers in different ways. And like, Devery, is Devery Jacobs who plays Laura Dan. And her story, I mean, there was a feature about her in New York magazine. But I think it's fascinating and really awesome that she started as a cast member joined the writer's room for the second season and is now directing. And is she, is she doing any

that on Echo? Because I know she's in Echo, right? I don't know if she is, but I think that it was this, you know, like this is, maybe it's because I was just wearing a Phillies cap, but I am thinking about this, like, the idea of being, of, like, building homegrown talent. Yeah. Like, when Chris Storr came on to talk about the bear and he was talking about how I-O, who's obviously the co-star of the show, but is also- But she was producing on the, on the Copenhagen episode, right? Yes, and she was trailing him on the dinner on the big Christmas episode.

Oh, in six, yeah, right. And throwing out ideas and contributing because she's going to direct, you know, in the future on the show and probably in other things in her life. And, like, that's just, that's invaluable. And it's really smart. And it's especially smart if you can keep it within, if you have people like, like,

I. Or Devery who are like part of your team. Yeah. Allow them to contribute other ways, which is, you know, I thought Scott Kingery would be like a little like mini coach on the field, you know?

I really held on to that guy's stock for a while. He was like a super utility. You know, he could play third shortstop, maybe a little outfield. Okay. And everyone's like, when they drafted him,

they were like, he's another chase up. Where is he now? Not in the major leagues. On the four. six is ranch. You know what he's doing right now when we look at the clock? I think he's staring at the sun.

I think he's a late riser and he's just looking straight up into the sun. All right. What's your, what's your mystery topic? Okay. So I want to preface this. Chris has no idea what I'm doing and he may hate this. I wish you would have done it earlier.

No, I feel like everything's going just as it should. We are in Philadelphia. Ships passing in the night. And I don't know if you know this, but at the moment. We're shipped at the same dock right now, actually. Oh, that's true. And then... And then you will go your way out.

Up river. Yeah. Right now, the beloved local snack company, hers, is doing a... They have, like, special taste of the city chips. Yes. Like, where they have, like, you can vote. I guess they've done this before, like new flavor chips.

And so I brought them. Okay. And I know this is... You want to do a taste test? Yeah. I know this is a little food news. Yeah. Shout out to Julia and Jacoby. But I'm just curious. We've never done anything like this. So I want to introduce you to these flavors. This is happening live. Our producer Kai today is filling in for Kaya. I'm sure the combination of two guys recording in a bar at 2 p.m.

while also eating chips. Yeah. You hear the crinkle live on air. Okay. So here are the flavors. And we promise we're not doing this to you, Ky, because you're from Texas. We're just doing it. We're just, this is a fun hazing thing.

I'm sure we do this to Kaya too. Okay. So here are the flavors, right? Do I need these sound appealing? What is your potato chip background? It's gotten very adventurous. You have? Yeah, I've gotten.

Really? I was used to be like a pretty much plain bar. barbecue or sour cream and onion guy. And I believe hers has been experimenting. There was some horseradish in the mix a couple years ago. That was really delightful. Okay. I'll grab.

What are the ones that are always in cheese shops that are Spanish? Oh, yeah, the Jose Andres brand that has like, um, why is it like a serrano ham? They, they stock in cheese shops. Because they're fancy. Because they're expensive. They're not going to put like green bag hers in there. Well, I wish they did.

Maybe they should. Okay. So here's one. This is, um, tomato, high flavor coming from a bakery in Norristown. Let me say, let me give you the contenders before you try. Chris is already opening the bag. Number two, Korean barbecue wings.

Oh, wow. Okay. Now, I have to be honest, I couldn't find the third. The third flavor is actually bitter disappointment. It's actually the official flavor of Philadelphia. I doubt. I don't think so. I think we're on the upswing.

We are. The third flavor is John's roast pork, which is the one I most wanted to try. store. So Chris is trying the Korean ones first. And I want to know a couple things. I want to know what you think of the chip. And I want to know if you think it represents the city that birthed us. I don't think I've ever had Korean food in Philadelphia.

Apparently, Mike's is quite good. I know. That's delicious. I don't know what I would eat that with or if I would just eat that solo. Pretty good. Yeah. Smoky. It's an, it's an elegant flavor. It feels like it's a little like, um,

it's telling a story. This is like the third season a resurrection dogs. Getting into a more of a symbolist kind of sort of like, would you have this with a hoagie? Like, would you just have this plane? No. Did you just say hoagy like that on purpose?

Instead of saying, instead of saying hoagy, I'll say hoagy. Do you think this will be our last pot ever? I hope so. That's the one. Really? Because my worry about this one,

that's a bangor. It's a very red chip. Tomato pie. We're not having the roast pork one, tomato is the water. My worry is this would be like ketchup flavored with like a dusting of cheap oregano. Okay.

that's really good. That actually tastes like something. Yeah. Okay. So do you think people, people who've never been to Philadelphia who will never eat these chips nor listen to this podcast?

Do you think this is representative of, because we're both very high on our home city now? I mean, we never weren't. Yeah, but this is, we're having a renaissance. There's good food here. It's been, it's great running, you know. Easy access to coffee.

Easy access to coffee. and then exercise trails. My only concern is I always think of tomato pie as a Jersey thing. I never really associated a tomato pie with Philly per se. But also, we don't hang out in Norristown. Which is where Coropalazi bakery is. Or I'd eat these with a sandwich. Do you think that, I mean, I kind of wish all cities did this.

I'm sure a lot of cities do do it. We're just not giving them their proper. I'm sure Tulsa has like a, you know. Do you think Three Sixes Ranch has a proprietary? It's four sixes. Don't try to fucking... Three six. Don't take a six away from Taylor.

It's four sixes? Four sixes. It's like half of West Texas. Do you think they eat chips there or just jerky? I think that... I think Taylor Sheridan has evolved. I think Taylor culture is a non-chip zone, if I had to guess. Do you think Taylor Sheridan is into body hacking?

Are you worried about what you're saying? I actually do. I mean, you would have to be to produce that amount of scripted content on a regular basis, right? I think he probably has a cup of coffee before you're the writer. Tell me about it. How hard must that be? I'm on strike. I have no idea. Okay. What about the, you want to talk maestro before we get out of here? Sure. I mean, that's an interesting way to go out is that Bradley Cooper's... You talk about maestro while I eat chips to the microphone. This is going to be Kai's greatest

accomplishment ever, pretty serious. I think it looks gorgeous. And I'm a very, very, very interested in the story of Leonard Bernstein. Bradley Cooper's new film, Mystriestr which comes out for award season on Netflix, starring him as Leonard Brinson. Well, Netflix, it's going to be in theaters too, right? One of those. Yeah. Netflix's really always support in theaters.

Love theaters. I went to a movie. I went to go see Talk to Me. Oh, yeah. I had kind of, there's been a lot of stories in papers recently, like in the Washington Post and stuff about, like, have we forgotten how to go to the movies? Like, because behavior's been so bad at Barbie and Oppenheimer.

It has? Yeah, well, and I also had that thing happened to me, when I went to a theater camp and someone just like filmed theater camp while we were there. What? Yeah. And, uh, that's terrible. This is an overstatement, you know, like, maybe it's just summer. It's like, no, there's no, there's no erosion of the social contract.

Right. And then I, I seriously almost got to a fight with two teenage girls and talked to me. What? It's just like, she was, will you shut the fuck up? Wait, what were they doing? Talking the entire movie. What's the name of the movie? That's not why they were talking.

Are you sure? This is so scary. This is scary. Are you scared? Oh, my God. Like, they were just like the entire movie. And there was like eight people in the theater. It wasn't because like, look, there's a tradition of talking to movies of some types of movies. Like I remember very clearly seeing the movie, the Michael Bay movie The Rock. Uh-huh. And there's a scene. I don't know when the last time you see. I think if it's like a collective, like we are all doing it, that's fine. If you're just like, I'm dictating that me and my friend are going to talk the entire horror

movie about like regret and trauma with kids smashing his face into things. Not going to see it. Yeah. So and then imagine that, but imagine like two, two like TikTok girls talking the entire time. I agree. I would not like that. But I also will never forget seeing The Rock at the Marple 10 in like 1994 or whatever. And there's a scene early on.

I don't know if a longtime listeners remember this, seen it recently. You did a rewatchable probably, right? I think so. where Sean Connery gets out of prison, right? Yeah. And then he gets it. He has long hair. And he gets a haircut.

Yeah. He gets his haircut. And there are these women sitting behind me in the theater. And as soon as, I haven't seen this movie in 20 years. So forgive my accuracy. But as soon as the hairdresser emerges in the scene, they just started tutting. They're like, hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they start sniffing in his hair. And Sean Connery, it looks great. You know, and they're like, oh. Well, it's also Sean Carr's wearing a wig, even when it's short there. Yeah.

And that it, they basically were not. they were then casting aspersions or making commentary about the sexuality of the hairdresser. I see. In 1994. And I've never forgotten this experience. But I didn't, I don't support that kind of talk back or hate speech, but I remember the scene in that movie. In any case, I think Maestro looks amazing.

The teaser trailer came out. And a little bit of mix of black and black and white, a little color. It seems to center Carrie Mulligan, who plays Leonard of Brinstein's wife in the movie. they have an amazing story. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's felt very, it surprised me, the trailer. It does look really beautiful and really classy. I mean, he seems to be profoundly influenced by pictures of the era.

Yeah. Like actually framing things like old black and white photographs of Leonard Bernstein. I feel like my main take on watching this was very like post Oppenheimer. Is this going to be a smash hit? Yeah. Because it's another, it's not a Christopher Nolan movie, but do people like history now? That would cool if they did.

Like is there suddenly a lane for this that people don't, didn't, I mean, you already said it's going to be on Netflix, so we won't really get to find out if this could become a phenomenon. But I don't know, it suddenly felt more plausible to me. It did not seem like an ego project or a vanity project for Bradley Cooper. It suddenly seemed like something that could work because this is, I mean, this project has been, I mean, the Leonard Bernstein story has been like batted around a bunch. Like I think Jake Jellenhall was interested in doing this for a while.

Spielberg was, I think Spielberg is executive producing this and had for a while been had his eye on this. It's a good question about whether or not like historical films are going to have a moment. I don't think they ever really go out of style. Frankly, I find that a lot of directors,

a lot of the best directors, and we've talked about this. I know Sean has too. tend to make period pieces because it goes, you can go pre-cell phone, which like makes the storytelling feel a little. little bit less like shortcutty. Like you don't have to just be like, I know how to get here. And I know I can just ask Google what four or six is. This ties into this ties into the winning

time as well, which is like reality is the cheapest IP available. Yeah. Yeah. But it also is an opportunity. You executives feel more comfortable audiences potentially feel comfortable or have preexisting curiosity. And then you can drape style on it. Yeah. Which is what I mean, Oppenheimer is more than that. But that's just that's it. Obviously it looks like Cooper's doing that. Yeah. Are you still all in on, on, on, on, on, on, on, on, on, BC? I like him a lot. Have you always had Cooper stock, like since Alias? I feel like, not alias, but like, you know, I liked limitless. I think he's like, wedding crashes. Yeah, I mean, uh, certainly, certainly wedding crashes. But like, did you, when you bought stock in young Hollywood,

I feel like you spread money around. Like, I feel like you bought Bradley Cooper stock, but you also bought Ron Eldard and like Josh Lucas stock. I didn't buy Ron Eldard stock. No disrespect to him. Josh Lucas stock. I had Josh Lucas stock. How's that looking? He was good in Ford versus Ferrari. Is that subprice? I'm now. Who else did you? Oh, no, you had a lot of... He's like having a really nice ranch house somewhere, you know? What are you buying with that? What about Aaron Eckhart? Have you checked in with your financial advisor about that recently? You know, my mom was just watching the core the other day, which Aaron Heckard, it's him and Hillary Swank drilling into the center of the earth to restart

the gravitational field. Seems fine, no problems, no notes. Yep. Why don't you write stories like that? Because I'm on strike. When you get off, if when I get off, I'm writing a Ron Eldard starring vehicle like the world has never seen. It's going to be a heist movie set on the two sixes ranch. That way there'll be no litigation. Well, it costs down. Yeah. Well, they steal two of the sixes.

That's good. That's the plan. All right. Let's wrap it up. These guys have been too generous with their real estate. Andy, it was wonderful to see you. This was a bizarre podcast, but I think we did a good job. I think we did a great job.

I think people are going to think that we were drinking, but it's early in the day. I am not sure if I'm going to do another pod this week. I know that you're out, but I may or may not. I think that your new career as a day-drinking potato chip critic deserves. I really hope that this is audible for Kai, and I hope people enjoy it. Me too. Should I have hit record? We'll be back together next Monday, for sure. Yeah, we'll have a lot to talk about.

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