The Watch - 'The Rings of Power' Episodes 1 & 2 Vs. 'House of the Dragon' With Mallory Rubin

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

Chris is joined by The Ringer's own Mallory Rubin to discuss the first two episodes of Amazon Prime Video's 'The Rings of Power.' They examine the show's incredibly expensive production, its painstaking attention to detail, and some of the more notable scenes (1:33). They then juxtapose and compare elements of 'The Rings of Power' with 'House of the Dragon,' highlight each show's methods of adapting original material, and debate the value of both series being released simultaneously (20:36). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Mallory Rubin Producer: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And joining me on the other line, it's not Andy Greenwald. It's Vassaris Targaryen sommelier. Mallory Rubin! What's up, Mal? Oh, boy. I like to think that I would have the king better prepared to face off with a stag, you know, alternate some water in with those goblets of wine. Andy couldn't make it today, but he did pass along a Raven's note that said he

thinks that Viserius is a basic Chardonnay guy. I thought that was an oaky red. That seemed like he was getting really in the tannins in that episode. Yeah, I think that anyone in a ruling seat is going to have the best Dornish Red coming in, whatever the latest vintage is from the arbor. Don't think we have to worry about the state of the House Targaryen seller. So here's what I want to do today. On Talk the Thrones, which just has also been posted on the Ringiverse feed,

you can hear me and Mallory and Joanna Robinson break down the third episode. of House of the Dragon, I would say in depth. I kept it under an hour, but we still did the damn thing. We talked all about the crab feeder. We talked all about everything. I wanted to have a broader conversation in the absence of Andy with you, Mal. Okay. Yeah. About this moment that we're having where we've got House of the Dragon, we've got Lord of the Rings. I watched the first two episodes of Lord of the Rings. I know that you were waiting with bated breath for my takes. I am waiting. I have no idea what you thought of it. I can't wait to hear. And I thought we could talk a little bit about world building. We could talk a little bit about adaptation. We could talk a little bit about

reality within these shows, which I think we talked a little bit about Talk to Thrones about that battle sequence at the end of the episode, episode three, and like us being like, oh, okay, mechanics here, a little bit, a little gamey, but we can, we can roll with it. But obviously, Mal's on Ringerverse. She's on House of Ar, she's going really into granular detail about these things. So this is a somewhat broader conversation. And I'm not a book reader of either of these I've never read any of Lord of the Rings books. I never read any Game of Thrones books. But I fired up Lord of the Rings last night thinking I would just be like, yeah, you know, I'll just check it out.

Let's see what's going on. And maybe I'll like kind of get a better sense of it over the weekend. And I watched both episodes. And? And I was kind of blown away by it. Right? Is it not sensational? It's sensational looking and feeling.

Yeah. There are definitely times where I'm like, I'm like, I'm in a fucking rent fare and I need to like... You say that like it's a bad thing. That sounds awesome. No, there are times where I'm just like, there's just too much harfuts. Is that what?

The harfuts. No such thing is too much harfuts, but yes. Here's my cheat code. Whenever these, the movies, the Peter Jackson movies are on, I just skip the hobbits. I don't understand.

I've never heard such a sentence out loud. That's like equivalent to not watching the movies at all. No, you skip Frodo and Sam and Mary and Pip? It's just too boring to, to rewatch. Like when they're on, if my mom is watching it when I'm home for the holidays, if it's on cable, whatever it is. Blasphemous. They're really good. The Lord of the Rings movies are really good plane movies, you know, because you can just kind of like let them rock for the

entirety of a long flight. But I always, like the person in the seat in front of me is probably super hates me because every time it's just Frodo, I'm hitting skip. Because I got it. I know what you guys did. There's just not enough. I just, I've never been a hobbit. guy. And that probably was the wall for me getting into it. But I couldn't believe it. I'm watching Lord of the Rings of Power. Definitely the most expensive show ever made. And I watched it. I guess it was good that I watched it on my big screen. I know you've seen it in the theater, right? Yes. I see where the money went. Oh yeah. It feels like a lifetime ago that the first trailer dropped around the Super Bowl. And there was a whole wave of online discussion about whether the show looked good

and the effects looked good. That really feels like ancient history. You can see the money. You can feel the money. For me, I loved feeling like I was back in the world of Tolkien, back in Middle Earth, back in the Sundering Sea, and the richness of the language and the lore felt so true to the spirit of the original story in a way that I found so immersive and just really adored. But the visual scope and scale, the score, the set design, the costumes, astounding, absolutely jaw-dropping. And I did have the pleasure of seeing it in a theater, which was like a special experience. But watching it, Watching it at home was also utterly immersive and gripping. It just looks so good. And the richness and, like, lyrical flow hearing Elrond, talk. I said on Joe and I did a deep dive into the first two episodes on House of R. And I said, like, I want Elron to read me bedtime stories, which is like a very weird thing to think and say out loud. But I just love listening to the language. And I think that Patrick McKay and J.D. Peen really captured.

the flow of the world. I think that the most intimidating thing, aside from taking on Tolkien, would have been taking on Peter Jackson. So, J. Bayona, it's like there are touches that I find very Jackson-y, Jacksonian even. I don't know if that's too much like Andrew Jackson,

and we shouldn't be talking about that guy, but, like, there are parts of it that are Jackson-y, specifically like the stranger, you know, and like some of the stuff with the guy, the man who fell to Earth. Meteor man. Great stuff. That feel like of Lord of the Rings that I know.

But then there was stuff that I was like, this is the, I don't mean this is faint praise. This is the best version of being too high looking at a Lord of the Rings poster on the wall at a college dorm room. Right. Where you're like,

yo, is Rivendell coming to life? Like, what is happening right now? And when Galadriel is on her journey to the West, when she, and her, and dying lens.

you know, her, her, and she jumps ship, that whole sequence, which is gorgeous. High key corny. And like it's elves going to the afterlife, basically. I was like, kind of caught up in it. Oh, yeah. And I thought that like a lot of these moments where he's able to really, really capture the scope of this world.

And I did not think that was going to be possible. I don't know. I mean, at all, because I just thought maybe like the Lord of the Rings movies were a singular achievement. But what did, what did you? think when you're seeing some of these moments play out on screen? I was just absolutely delighted as somebody who loves Lord of the Rings lore so much. You know, Lord of the Rings is, it's, it's really like the first story that I ever fell in love with. Yeah. And it feels like a real

aberration in the IP expansion era that it took so long. And obviously, there are a lot of rights issues and procuring the rights. And even when you do that, what do you actually have access to and how hard is it to then expand the world that you're trying to tell inside of the limits of a given appendix that that made this a very, very, very difficult thing to do. There's the streaming wars aspect of Amazon hunting openly for its own Game of Thrones, the open exchange online about what it meant to spend this much money on a thing. So there was just so much pressure, palpable pressure and discourse around this project. And then the fact that it was going head to head with the return of Game of Thrones,

with House of the Dragon, with that heavy sense in the air of, well, what if the next Game of Thrones is just Game of Thrones again? And to sit down to watch this and just lose myself in the world again, to be so instantly taken by Norrie and the Blackberry picking and the Harfa to, again, you're just, you're entitled to your own opinion and I love you. and you're one of my most cherished colleagues and dearest friends in the world. Your Hobbit takes one of the worst I've ever heard, but we all have our failings and our limitations. To get to see Lyndon, this golden, glittering seat of the elf lords.

Right, that's where El Ron is hanging out in the show. And then they go to Casa Doom, and our frame of reference for that is the ruin, the ruin that we make our way through and the sense of history. and what had happened to see this fall and this decay to be there now at the peak, grass, and sunlight, and a full bristling, teeming empire. I love learning more about this aspect of the timeline, the second age, because the Jackson films are set in the third age, so we're much

earlier in the timeline, and we have these points of connection, Galadriel, Elrond, etc., but there's so much that we will get to really explore in full for the first time. And I just find it, I just find it thrilling. I love the first two episodes. I'm so excited to see the remaining six. I can't, can't wait. Yeah,

you mentioned that moment where Elron goes to Casadoum and he's going to, he's like, my man, Duren is going to just like welcome me with open arms. And it's a great moment because it's a door. It's like, he's got a knock and he's building this place up. He's just like,

I'm sure this place is going to be like awesome. They're going to welcome us in. this is going to be ram's horn, salted pork. But even, like, and as a viewer, you're like,

oh yeah, I can remember, like, this is a pretty, pretty tough, tough place to be in the Lord of the Rings movies.

I wonder what it looked like. And I did find myself, like, almost having like a kind of like kid, being a kid again, watching a movie, when they go in,

and you get the reveal of what it looked like, and it has like elevators and forests. And they're reflecting the sunlight that's coming in. Like, what I saw there, regardless of,

your like tolerance level for, I guess what did you call it high fantasy or? High fantasy, yeah. It's just the amount of thought that went into it and care that went into this. And I, I'm not trying to like do any cheap shots here, but like it kind of made me annoyed at Star Wars and MCU. And like, I was like, I wish they had, I wish maybe we weren't in a conveyor belt situation with these two things where like you could get a moment in one of these worlds where you felt like you had a cat like I'm walking into these doors and somebody has spent three years thinking about what this would look like, you know?

Absolutely. And I'm not trying to dismiss what other people, like the amount of work people are putting into Shehulk or or Book of Boba Fett, but you think about like Obi-One and you're like, fuck man, I've been late like, I want to see Obi-1 cook for like most of my life. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, yeah, like that was pretty cool. Like, you know, like, you guys shot that on the volume. You ran the Tatooine iOS and it looked all right.

You know, but this seemed like I could feel hundreds and hundreds of people thinking about like, what are they doing down there in the lower left hand corner of that frame? Absolutely. And how would that enrich the viewer's experience of what this character is experiencing as they walk through these doors? Absolutely. Yeah. there is something so grand, so grand and vast. And there are these helpful orienting aspects that are quintessential to the tail, you know, spanning across the map so that you get your bearings for literally where you are. But every single seat, every single place feels so fully realized.

And again, I think that the language and the dialogue in these episodes, I just adored so much. I think is so crucial to achieving a couple different things at once because there's a highly like earnest quality to Lord of the Rings at large. And there is this poetic archetypal aspect to what you hear. So you get a line at the end between King Duren and Princeton when they are gazing down at this box and we don't see the inside, but we can deduce. It must be me through this thing that we are familiar with like where that led, where that led them, what it led to, spawned. You can connect that to a beautiful moment at the dinner table talking about how you resonating, singing to the mountain so you know where to go, but where not to go. There's always

this theme and this warning and also this like aspect of possibility. So you get that line. I thought it was one of the lines of the premiere. There can be no trust between hammer and rock. Eventually one or the other must surely break. Or you you talk about like the scene you already mentioned Galadriel looking down at Finrod at her brother's dagger and making the choice to jump back into the sea. Like, we've all seen the original trilogy. We know that she's not going back to Valanor. She's not going to the undying lands. We've spent time with Kate Blanchett in the original movies. But I was still so arrested watching her make that choice. And to hear, to get the payoff of the line that her brother whispered to her earlier in the episode, sometimes we cannot

know until we have touched the darkness. There are versions of the show. Versions. of the adaptation where neither of those lines land, where, like you said earlier, there can almost be like a corniness or a heavy handiness. Even as it is, those kinds of things, like, kind of bounce off of me. But, yeah. I found I was, like, in awe and in tears.

I was just like, these are some of the most beautiful lines I've heard spoken, and they tap into these central pursuits and the really highly archetypal nature of Lord of the Rings as one of the, the kernels at the top of this vast storytelling branch. So many of the things that we love now and we talk about stem from this, stem from the Hobbit, stem from

the Lord of the Rings. And I think you could feel that essence in moments like that. And that's like a real gift. There was something really cool in that Galadriel ship moment. Yeah. So in the beginning of the episode, was it the first episode of the second episode where

she jumps ship? She jumps at the end of the first one. And then she's swimming in the second one and ends up on the raft with Hal Brand. So in the beginning of the first episode, there's like, as they're kind of moving from place to place, they go through the map. Yep. And when it starts in Valenor in the pre, like the preamble that they have, when the camera pans across the map and it goes across the sea, it takes like 10 seconds. It's like a long seat. You're like, you guys are really like showing us how far apart these things are. Now, we have had many conversations on various podcasts and in person where after we see

some big IP movie or show, we're like, and so like they just like left that planet and got to another planet in two seconds and where they're exactly at the right time. The coolest thing in the first two episodes to me was that she jumps off the boat and she doesn't just Katie Lodecki it back to the other side. She's like, and now I'm fucked. Now I'm in the middle of the ocean. And my best bet is to get on this like clapboard raft with these other people. Like she, I thought that that was like a really good indication of the creators understanding how big the story was that they were telling. Even if, yes, we know that Galadryl is in these future movies and we know that she is very

important that she's going to do it. So there's not really like the resistance there, but it was, I thought it was really well done. I also thought the pacing was pretty good. But, you know, I do find, I'm not like out on House of the Dragon at all, but it's been so interesting to juxtapose these two things. You talk about the almost like the sweetness and the idealism of this show of rings of power. Like, have you, how have you kind of feeling about there is no real moral North Star in House of the Dragon? As there isn't really in Game of Thrones.

there are people you might like, but they're all pretty flawed. Whereas then this is a different kind of storytelling where it's like there is absolute good and absolutely evil. I think it's a great question. And I'll repeat some of what Joe and I have talked about on Ringervor's

because I think it's really a core question. George R. Martin has spoken many times over the years in his interviews about his adoration for Tolkien. Like I think sometimes you hear people say Thrones, a song by Sifyers, or a response. to Lord of the Rings and like it implies something

that is just not true because George loved that story and love that world. But one of the things that he is true and that he talks about and I think it's so interesting how he does is this what was Aragorn's tax policy idea

and that like the notion that a good man would be a good king is something that is like anathema to George. And so I think that there are different core

pursuits at the heart of both stories. One of the things with House of the Dragon in particular in the dance of the dragons, one of the reasons it was the tale that George Barra Martin wanted for the first spin-off is because of the moral gray of almost everybody in the story. That's an inherent part of the proposition. And what makes it interesting and compelling, that we're not operating in some sort of neat and tidy good versus evil binary. Characters who we love and root for will make decisions that we find shocking and deplorable. Characters who we tend to find shocking and deplorable

will do things where we're like, man, that was the right choice. That was the smart thing. Rings, I think that you're right, but I would also say that even though there is this, you know, and Sauron is probably the archetype across storytelling, across genre storytelling. telling of this looming shadow, the idea that evil, it just waits. It's always there lying in wait. And the second that you think it's not is when it gets you. And part of the reason that your Hobbit take is so horrific, of course, is because the idea that anyone, no matter how small,

could make a difference is such a core and beautiful thing at the heart of this tale. They can make a difference. I could just also hit 15 seconds ahead where they're talking. But I do think that there is more complexity at the heart of the tail than just a good versus evil. And I think that rings of power. And television as a platform allows for more time and nuance. Like already we can take a character just in the first couple episodes like Elron and say, all right, this is a guy that we know already we want to root for.

We have an attachment to this character that exists in time. were watching a moment that he has with Duren who's like, you missed my entire life. And it means nothing to you at all. Or the exchange that Elrond has with Gilgallad after Galadria leaves. And this idea, this promise that he made to her, that he would continue the pursuit, that if a whisper reached him,

and then we just hear the high king say to him, Oh yeah, it's totally going to happen, but like, it's better to like pretend it won't because she's right, but we didn't want her to follow it. Yeah, reasons. So I think that that, I think that this show will actually lean in to some of that moral ambiguity and complexity and the questions of ambition and hubris and how that can lead you astray, even if your intention is at one point pure. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day,

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Get savings with yellow sale. signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring, save at Whole Foods Market. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the specifics and, more broadly speaking, the nature of adaptation, specifically for these two texts. I think that there are, I can't even remember what it was, but I was watching a YouTube video the other day and somebody was talking about like Kubrick, when Stanley Kubrick would adapt something, He would often use the book that he was adapting as just like a kind of like a bookmark for the story he actually wanted to tell.

You know, it's like, I want to do a Vietnam movie or I want to do a space movie or I want to do a sandals and shields Roman story. So here's what I'm going to do, but it's also going to be like all this other Kubrick shit that I'm going to put on it. And you don't get really to do that with Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings because, I mean, in some ways that is what Star Wars is like would like to do is to have so much Star Wars that you can have like a political drama and like a workplace comedy

and like they are making enough MCU and Star Wars shows that we you know we have a sitcom essentially with She-Hulk Hulk not really but like it is comedic they're not going to do that with these shows. They're too expensive and they're too important and maybe one day they'll have nine Game of Thrones shows on I don't long for that time, but there may be.

But with these, a lot of it is about being faithful to the work of the author. Yet with these two shows, we're not working off of novels. We're working off of essentially like Google Docs. You know, like we have a, we for, so for people who don't know, House of the Dragon is based on what? It is based on fire and blood, which is a, fictional history about House Targary. It will ultimately be two volumes. Only volume one has currently been published, but it is a vast tome that begins with the days of Agon the Conqueror and takes

us through a certain point in time in Targaryen history and covers the events that this particular show, House of the Dragon, will be focused on the Dance of the Dragons. So compared to a vice of fire, which is not only this vast narrative novel, but is a point of view. So each chapter is from a given character's perspective. You are in the head of every character. You know exactly what the point of view characters are saying, not thinking not every character is a point of view character, but the ones who are, you are deeply intimately aware of every aspect of their journey. So fire and blood is told through unreliable narrator account. many of them, so you'll have a key moment in history and we'll hear, well, this is what this person

says happened, but let me tell you what Mushroom the Fool says and how these tales conflict. And so House of the Dragon will be, as we've heard the showwriter say, the objective version of events. And so on the one hand, if you've read Fire and Blood, you have a very clear sense of what the beats are, the plot points, who the characters are, what will happen and when, but there's so much room in between to fill in and flesh out and give us clarity. I think Allison Tightower is a great example of this, a character who we are just now on the show for the first time really, really getting to glean her motivations and what was at the heart of her relationships with people. George R. Martin is involved directly and heavily in crafting this show, which I think

is a really cool thing. And Ryan Condal, the lead writer and one of the two showrunners for season one, is a super van and obsessive. And I think that you can feel that. very palpably whenever he talks about the story and in the way that he has chosen to adapt it. I think that that there's obviously not the equivalent of George R. Martin helping to make the show with Tolkien and rings of power. But I think that that aspect of the fans, the fandom at the heart of the story, like I do think you can really feel that J.D. and Patrick love the world and have a real reverence for the material.

And that's one of the things with adaptations more broadly that always gives me comfort and peace is like feeling like you're in safe hands with people who no matter what will not want to corrupt the spirit of the story. With rings of power, though, they are working in a very limited set of circumstances because they have access.

And you as a TV critic and expert have a, I'm sure, a better feel than even I do for the actual rights agreements and everything I play with the money that Amazon spent in the Tolkien estate, but broadly, they are working off of like appendices from the original tale. And so there will be, again, there are characters like Galadriel and Elrond who were familiar with from the primary films and primary novels. There are going to be connections. Like we've heard even in these first two episodes talk of the Silmarils. And so we can we can

think to what we've learned in the Silmarillion, which is a historical text. But the bulk of what they have access to freely work with and adapt is very, is very, very, very, very, you know, is very, very, very, very limited. And so that gives them a lot of room to play, but it makes it harder to do any sort of one-to-one faithful. Oh, I'm recreating this. They are building something new. But Elron, when Elrond gets this new gig working for like the Frank Geary, the elvish Frank Geary, I take it they're going to make the rings, right? Do you, I mean, do you want me to answer that question? Are they going to make, like, were they going to make the high line? Yeah. Are they going to make the high line? They're going to, they're going to make. They're going to, they're going to, they're going to. They're going. going to really get involved in Hell's Kitchen and then Chelsea renovations in Manhattan. You're a big, you a big, Kellebrimbor? Did you leave, you left New York before Highline went up, right? No, Highline was there for my last few years there and I loved it. I spent a lot of time on

the Highline. I mean, relatively speaking, because I never really go out or do anything, as you know, but I was a big, big Highline head. So as somebody who's obviously a little bit less enamored, I mean, just like, it's not, it's more important to me that the show is good than it is whether or not it's like meeting, some sort of standards of faithfulness for adaptation. I have noticed myself tapping my foot a little bit, like waiting for someone to kind of imbue a character with almost like a distinct personality.

I think I'm trying to get my head around. In which story? In House of the Dragon. And we'll talk about the Rings of Power stuff in a second. But my heart rate goes up so much faster when either Matt Smith or Millie Alcock is on the screen. I just think that those are the two people who seem to be truly like getting it and getting understanding how to have fun with it or how to express themselves.

I think obviously I'm a huge, like Reese Ivan's fan. I'm sure he would do more if he had more screen time. And Patty. Patty's been amazing. I think Patty's been really good. Yeah. I mean, like I, it's like splitting hairs. But I do think that one of the things I've noticed is everybody kind of, of talks the same, you know, like there is like an almost formality to the language that I felt

had more of a sense of play in Thrones, which you and me and Joe have talked about, like, could be the missing Dave and Dan element that was in Game of Thrones that had that kind of like urbane patter compared to what feels like almost like formal, theatrical. Well, we don't really know how these people talk. So let's go with this version of like classical kind of like English acting. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. And the Beniof and Weiss's point is, I think, completely valid. I would also say that it's a bit of a structural aspect with House of the Dragon in a couple different ways. One, as a point of contrast to Game of Thrones,

the very hyper-specific zoomed-in focus on House Targaryen. So, and obviously they're not the only house we're spending time with. We're with House of Valerian, House High Tower, et cetera, your guy the crab feeder. But mostly in so much as they are intersecting with Targaryens. Exactly. It is all through the Targaryen lens. And so I think that that is maybe reinforcing or fueling in some way this, like the lack of the variance that you're looking for, which was so elemental to Thrones from the jump.

We just met so many different characters. We were in so many different places. That's why the opening credits had to be the map. showing us exactly which kingdom we were in, which seat we were going to visit that episode, and the more time that passed the further afield we went, the more people that we met. I do think that we will meet more people

over the course of House of the Dragon, but that gets me to my second point, which is the time jumping. Because of the nature of the structure of the initial part of this season, where we are moving through, we had a six-month jump between, I mean, we had a nine-year jump immediately in the first episode,

between the prologue, which again, I loved, but between to give us the great counsels, the prolog, and then get to the meat of the first episode, then six months between episodes one and two, and then three years between episodes two and three. And so on the one hand, everything that we're seeing is of high consequence. On the other hand,

we are just missing the day-to-day rhythm of life for these characters that I think also led to so much of what you're talking about. The time, not just with the high lords playing their Game of Thrones, but with the bronze and the podricks, right? and those people who breathe so much life into the world. So I think that once the timeline slows down and stabilizes,

there will just be more room for that kind of rhythm that you miss and expect. And then when it comes to Rings of Power, for sure, like, it's definitely written in like, it's high fantasy ease, right? Like, I'm definitely picking up on that, right? Yeah. I think that there's something about, like, the way that Ring of Power is almost like embracing the fakeness.

I would almost compare it more to Avatar than I would to Game of Thrones. Do you know what I mean? Like there is like... In what way? It is almost like the level of like embellished reality that they're embracing. You know, like this person is standing against a

scene of a dwarf kingdom underneath a mountain. Like we didn't build that. This isn't like some of it's a set and some of it. It's like this is like almost like supposed to feel like a living painting rather than Game of Thrones. Thrones or House of the Dragon, even, which is supposed to feel a little bit more like it's a feast, it's dirty, this guy's drunk, it's kind of like your family reunion. Like it is, it does have like elements of reality. But there is something about the, if House of the Dragon is like reality with a

twist because there's dragons, Rings of Power is just full fantasy. And I almost appreciate it leaning into that. Yeah. I mean, there's, I'm trying to think of what aspects of the first two episodes that we saw feel closest to home or most recognizable. And I think that Joanna talked about this in a really lovely way on House of R. The elf forward nature of this show is actually like a pretty big distinction from the Jackson films, which, I mean, of course have elves in them, to be clear, glad I don't know herself, our guy leg loss, et cetera, but are so firmly oriented through

Frodo's story, Sam's story, Arrigorn story. They're aliens. They're like, oh, elves are here. Oh, my God. It's told through those perspectives of people who are like, oh, my God, they're real elves are real. Like, this is crazy. Right. And so, like, you're supposed to latch on quickest to the perspective of the hobbits. That's the closest frame of reference, you know, living at home with your family, with your friends, enjoying a pint at the green dragon, thinking about that good tilled earth and the vegetables in your yard. The... absolute sprawling presence of high magic across this story is, and I guess like in theory, the people you're supposed to think are most recognizable, people familiar are the men, the humans, but I personally don't really ever find that to be the case. And I think that's by design and one of the interesting things of the story because, you know, there, and that was, I thought, handled quite well here too with Arrondir and the, watchwarden discussing in the Southlands.

That was pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, that like, one of the things the watchwarden says is, you know, they've kept watch, not because of what their ancestors once did, but because of who they still are. And so there's this prejudice in all directions between these different factions and groups of people. It's so hard to form trust. And then because of that aspect that you're citing of the fully realized high fantasy world, everybody has this reality that is all consuming all around them

to lose themselves in and to be absorbed in and to focus on in full. And of course, that's the thing that most characters are going to fight to preserve and maintain. So the ones who can move beyond that into another realm, another way of life and find that appreciation for it are the ones we're going to be inclined to root for because they're the ones pursuing that core Lord of the Rings idea,

fellowship. So I'm glad to hear that that that was something that you felt drawn to and that you enjoyed seeing come to life. And, you know, it connects to what you were saying about the map and just the time spent showing us how far we're traveling. And I think that's, again, like,

one of the cool things about, I love the Lord of the Rings movies. I watch them every year. They're among my favorite films, legitimately of all time. Just, and they're quite long. But, yeah. So one of the things that TV allows

is just the time, the time to linger, you know? Now that you're in it, now that we have both of these shows on at the same time. Yeah. Is there a part of you that wishes, is, and the reasons for those, that being is the vigories of the streaming wars and whether or not HBO is like, we're going to get in before Lord of the Rings comes on or what we want is for people to be having this conversation. I think Allison has mentioned in her pieces,

like, you can't help but compare these two shows because of a lot of reasons. Do you wish that they were on at completely different times of the year and maybe going forward that they pick different spots to air? Do you feel like you wish you could just, not even professionally, but like as a viewer, you could give yourself over to one version of fantasy and then another? Yeah, so I will say two things.

On the one hand, these are two of my favorite fictional worlds and stories legitimately of all time. As a viewer, as a reader. So I think that it is a gift. It's my, my known, my precious, to be able to enjoy both of these things. at once and spend time talking with you and Joe and people I love about these stories that I love. That's like an amazing thing to get to spend September and October talking about House of the

Dragon and Rings Power at the same time. How cool is that? However, I think that it's unfortunate that it's unfortunate that it's unfortunate that it's unfortunate that it's unfortunate that it's so much of the conversation is what you just outlined, like which will trump the other, which is the one fantasy show to rule the ball, the one streamer to rule the ball. Like it's a normal and reasonable thing to discuss. It is in terms of the media landscape and the TV landscape and the streaming wars

a pretty important head to head. It's a really notable thing. I mean, Amazon has essentially, like it's been suggested that Amazon's internal stances, like if this doesn't work, we might just stop doing TV. Right.

So it is a real thing. I'm not implying that it's manufactured. I just wish we were talking more, about how amazing it is to see, like, the hammer of Phenore than whether HBO or Amazon one September. That said, check out the streaming guide on the ringer.com where you can track exactly that every week. I love it. Please do. The other thing, though, Chris, is like, we're never going to be out of that moment, ever. So if it, if it wasn't this, then one of these would be going head-to-head to

head to Mando. And now these invite the closest conversation and comp, but we're in the era of IP expansion. I love it because I love these stories.

Andor is going to be on at the end of this month and Andor is going to be like going up against. And if anything, now the more I read about Andor, the more it almost feels like the Star Wars

like answer to one of these shows because it's being constructed and created as a multi-season arc. I see like, Diego Luna's already talking about how season two is multiple films and what, like, it's wild how they're actually going through with like a really elaborate plan for

Andor. I think for me, I, I gotta admit it's a lot. It's a lot of like, both keeping stuff straight, trying to figure out, like,

what to, like, care about, but also, like, in conjunction with the WandaVision on run of, of this stuff that we've got. of like, not, not ring or reverse stuff, but like this kind of like,

uh, IP storytelling that we've gotten, it makes me crave having the antidote. I was wondering whether like you have like a fantasy palate cleanser right now when you're like, okay, like, I need to not think about elves or dragons. What is it? So to be clear, I never feel that I need to not think about elves and dragons. And to be abundantly clear, I love that we're getting all these shows. It's a, it's the joy of my life. These are my favorite things in the world to talk about and I'll never complain about it. I just wish that House of the Dragon rings of power specifically, we're not going at to head. I also think it would be cool if Rings of Power was on at like a normal time.

Like, because aren't they going to be releasing these like Thursday at midnight, right? Yeah, I think for us in the Pacific Times Zone, it'll be nine, the kind of standard Amazon window there. Well, if we don't incinerate in heat wave, so before everybody gets excited for us to get the... We live in the fires of Mount Doom here in Southern California. I'm sorry. I stole your moment, though. No, it's industry. It's my... Yeah, it's industry. It's my, my, my, the show that I, other than the two that we've spent the bulk of today, talking about, the show that I look forward to the most every week right now. I just think it is sensational. It's so good. So are you up to date with it? Are you, have you watched all five so far? I'm, I haven't seen this week's episode yet because of the aforementioned. The fact that there's like five hours of dragons and hardfoot's, but that'll be my treat to myself tonight on a Friday evening. And I am genuinely really sad.

that the season's almost over. I know the part of what makes it so tight and focused and precise and sharp and great is that it's not always on in 12 episodes, but I would watch every fucking second of it if it were. Is there a part of industry that you find yourself responding to most strongly? Like a character or like, is it the style? Like, what is it? I think it's the blend. I think it's the brew of all of the different characters and personalities. I mean, I love Jay Deplas, so seeing him join the party this year was, uh, one of the treats of my life. I'm, you know, I'm very, very invested in, uh, what awaits for our guy, Robert, our dear Robert. You know, I worry, I worry about Robert. What, which, uh, which arc are you,

are you most invested in currently? You've always been team yes. Well, I'm, I think the thing I'm primarily interested in is the Harper Eric thing. I mean, like, Harper Eric and Jesse is a triangle, but also, like, I find Harper to be such, like, a fascinating protagonist, if you want, want to call her that. It is really an ensemble, but I think that she's really kind of a catalyst for a lot of what happens on the show. And, yeah, I mean, for as dark as it's capable of being, I find it like the ultimate hang show. Like, I just love the music. I love the filmmaking. I love the performances. I love the writing. It's really fun to go back and rewatch some of the episodes and like kind of pick out lines that you miss the first time around. So yeah, right now I think it's just like,

And it's definitely a pallet cleanser when it comes to to elves and dragons. It's definitely nice to just do some ketamine and make some trades. So we have six more episodes of Lord of the Rings. That takes us into

like mid-October, I guess. And then House of the Dragon has seven more weeks. So they're essentially going to be neck and neck the rest of the way here. Yeah. And who knows what frame of mind we will be in at that point,

how the Eagles will be doing, how the Ravens will be doing. That's right. You know, we'll have a lot of our emotional state tied up in the latest sporting event of the moment as well. But yeah, man, we're, we're heading for a fun September and October. The way you said fun, definitely made it sound like you believe that it was really fun. I'm having the time of my life.

I'm serious. Like, I, you know me, Chris. We've had the pleasure now of chatting about Thrones together for five years. half a decade? I mean, it's really amazing to think about. And I feel a lot of pressure when it's time to talk about Thrones. Like, I have a lot of my career and, and a lot of the friendships I value tied up in covering Game of Thrones. I never want to blow it. I don't want to fuck it up. And like, this season, it has really been energizing for, I feel this way. At least I'm curious if you do, to just be back in Westrose and like to be at the beginning of a new journey.

Like, because that's the part that I think that's the, that's the, that's the other. side of the, we have all of these new characters to meet and it's like taking a little bit of time to get acclimated point that you made earlier, it's all, it's all fresh and new. Even inside of the prequel, you know, we know where the house Targaryen is a couple centuries down the road aspect. It's just, I don't know, it's, it's like my, literally my favorite thing in the world to talk about these stories with my pals. So I'm just really happy that we get to do it again. I love it. Well, thanks for talking about it even more with me today. My pleasure.

Chris Sutton filling in on the decks today as our producer. We'll be back on Thursday. Greenwald will be in the building, I promise. And thanks so much to Mallory for filling in tonight.