The Watch - The Shake-Up At Disney, 'Obi-Wan Kenobi,' and Gail Simmons on This Season of 'Top Chef'

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about Peter Rice, Disney's top TV executive, being ousted from the company and what it might mean for the brand's streaming plans going forward (1:00). Then, they talk briefly about the latest episode of 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' (21:37), before they are joined by 'Top Chef' judge Gail Simmons to talk about the latest season of 'Top Chef' and how the show has evolved over its almost 20 seasons (28:45). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo. From the Housewise to Summer House and everything in between, we'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis? which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, hoping his ID still works at the Impenetrable Fortress. It's Andy Greenwald. Is that a Star Wars thing? Yeah, it's a Star Wars thing.

Did you just watch Obi-Wan Canovi? Don't you want to talk about that today? Do I want to talk about it? Boy, I mean, we will. Andy, it's Thursday in the United States of America, and we're here to talk about a couple of things today. We've got some news and notes to go over in the top, some headlines from Holly Weird.

And then we were going to just briefly chat about Obi-Wan episode 4. and maybe throw some hosanas towards Miss Marvel, another new Disney Plus show, because we love Disney. We love Disney, maybe more than Peter Rice loves Disney. Outgoing head of Disney, like all entertainment, right?

What was his official job title? Well, so Peter Rice is a long-standing, long-serving executive in all caps, this town, who was running Foxx. Different from the town with Matt Bellany. Yes, although, the same town, weirdly.

And I'm sure Matt will be covering this in some emergency fashion on his wonderful podcast. With much more detail. And reporting and insight. But long-serving exec at Fox came over as part of the merger, was running all of the combined Fox and Disney TV assets along with his colleague, Dana Walden. By all accounts, a beloved figure, was called into Bob Chapec's office and Bob Chapec cosplayed Mad Men's season four with him. and told him, thank you for your service, you're done.

I think there's a couple of details in the Hollywood reporter piece about his exit, which apparently took all of seven minutes to consummate in Bob Chafek's office. And one of my favorites is that, paraphrasing, Bob Cheapak was essentially like,

I don't think you're a fit for this culture, for the culture we're developing. And Peter Rice was like, I thought the whole thing was we were like building a culture together. I'm not laughing.

I feel, I mean, you know, I mean, I'm sure Peter Rice is going to land on his feet, you know? For what it's worth, you and I had a similar conversation after I didn't like Obi-Wan, you know, the first time. Well, that was what I was going to ask you is if you thought that this was after Bob Cheapack had watched episode 4 of El of Obi-1. And he was like, Pete, come on through my office when you get a chance. Didn't help. I'm going to say, didn't help. And maybe it's the tone setting that they need or the reset. By the way, before we get into this industry talk, Gail Simmons is on our podcast.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Sorry. People, I completely buried the lead. Gail Simmons, our beloved Top Chef judge, and somebody we've wanted to have on the podcast for a very long time, was kind enough to spare way too much time talking to us this week. So we wrap up our thoughts on Top Chef season 19 in this podcast. In the second half, you're going to hear us talking with Gail. And it was a great conversation about this season, but also the nature of her job and how it's changed over the years. And we spoil Top Chef season 19.

Houston right off the jump of that interview. So do not listen if you are still parceling out the episodes. You are correct. So let's turn back to this town, though. All caps. Is that working? Is that a new bit?

I think it's a thing. I mean, Mark Stein goes this league every time something happens in the NBA. Oh, okay. So maybe. Yeah. We're going to go from the bumpiness at Disney to Warner Media.

Yeah. Warner Discovery Media, Discovery Media. Discovery Warner. Yeah. Right. So I want to float something to you that the discovery boss, David Zazlev, who is the highest paid or compensated CEO in media and has now taken over Warner Brothers, which includes, of course, HBO and HBO Max. I think he's an honorary Bob. Are you okay with this?

You think Dave is a Bob? I mean, Dave is a capital B, Bob. And I feel like we can't do the Bob report or whatever we've called this bit that we come back to occasionally. Let's just like reset for listeners who are maybe. Okay. Maybe they come here for Top Chef. Maybe they come here for incisive Obi-1 critiques. And they don't know what we're talking about.

Maybe they're leaving right now. The Bob's are Andy and I's blanket kind of term for people who run studios. But it just so happens that it's pretty accurate because a lot of the guys who run studios are named Bob. Well, it started with Bob Eiger. Of course. Grandfather Bob. Iger counter, for sure.

who ran Disney through, you know, a remarkably successful tenure, only to step down but only step down on one of those half steps they have on very tall ladders. Yes. And Bob Chapec was his hand-picked successor. But in the process of being succeeded, Bob Iger was like, actually, I think I'm going to take one more victory lap here and then let Bob Chapec immediately enraged Scarlett Johansson. and Florida. Yes.

So that's not going great. And then, you know, churning up dust on the outside lane has been Bob Backish, who runs Paramount. That's my guy. And I know, that's always been your Bob. Yeah. It's kind of like how it's like being super into like when you're, when somebody's like, oh, you follow European football. What are you like?

You're like only like second tier Bundesliga. That's like in backish. But Backish is winning. Backish is fucking top gun in theaters. He's got the Sheridanverse. He had a solid season of Survivor. He's doing fine. Yeah.

And then here comes Big Zaz, aka Bob. AKA Flip This House, Bob. And we are not, as alluded to by Chris, we are not consummate insiders like Matt Bellany is, but there are rumblings that the takeover of HBO and all of the, you know, the Warner properties, it's not that it's not going smoothly, but it's not going quickly.

Like, he definitely is doing a price check on aisle all of them. And any project that was greenlit might be a little bit yellow lit now. Any budget that was approved might be getting redlined a little bit. And the highest profile example of this crashed onto the headlines again this week because J.J. Abrams long gestating blockbuster sci-fi show, the show that he didn't stake his name on it, but he put his name on it, saying that I am returning in an active way

to making television. After years and years of executive producing stuff, overseeing stuff, having this expanding empire under the bad robot umbrella. This new show Demi Mond is his thing, his baby's going to direct it. He is, if not directly show running it, directly involved,

and it is a big, big swing original idea. Yeah. He wrote the pilot script. And this has been going for a minute. And it was one of the major jewels in the bad robot cabinet of curiosities that helped secure a quarter million dollar overall with Warner right when the pandemic was just kicking off. And it was rumored that Apple was also trying to get bad robot and offered potentially almost twice as much money, but for total exclusivity, which might not have made as much sense because the bad robot TV deal, the bad robot Warner deal is TV only because he keeps a lot of fingers and a lot of. different studio pies because it makes Star Trek for Paramount and also Mission Impossible for Paramount, et cetera, et cetera.

He also somehow has a couple of Apple shows in the works, or at least shows that he is a part of like the Fatal Attraction reboot, I think. I think some of these are projects that were passed over by the Warner family. And then there's something at Apple. Just so that our listeners understand this, and I know that we have a couple of things to get through before we get to Gil, but like when we talk about overalls, um, yeah, like, does that mean someone cut him a $250 million check and was like, please start delivering shows? Does that mean all your shows against this 250 come to us? Like, how does that work? An overall deal means an

agreement that the studio will pay you this amount of money over an agreed upon period of time. It's basically getting a steady gig. It's a steady paycheck. $250 million, if that's the correct number, I'm sure it's not exactly right, is the money that will be paid out to the bad robot corporation over the lifespan of the deal. Anything that they do for TV has to go through Warner's first. Warner's can say, thank you, no thank you, and then they can go sell it elsewhere. If Warner says, thank you, let's make this, the normal dealmaking still applies. There still will be executive producer fees going to JJ or writing fees and everything else,

but they are charged off against the lump sum they're already paying. So to earn out a $250 million. deal would be quite the undertaking. You would have to be making tons and tons of shows that were generating profits in excess of the $250 million for you to begin making money on top of it. Which gets into the somewhat opaque idea of what generates money on subscription services. Particularly when it's all coming from within the same building. So there were rumors that this project was a little bit troubled or maybe a little bit expensive. There's been a lot of time spent on it, the different showrunners and co-executive producers or executive producers

have come and gone. Then a week or so ago, I don't remember if we mentioned this on the pod, it hit the trades in a kind of an interesting way, right, that Zazlov was looking at this. He wasn't sure about this. Our boy, our boy, Bloys, our boy Casey was also scratching his head a little bit. Was HBO going to pull the trigger on this series? And with the backdrop of Zazlov being like, why are we paying this guy this much money when they're not making that much stuff for us, it seems like, and anyway, this week, they said thanks, but no thanks. Demi Mond will not be moving forward at HBO, even though it was also the other piece of news about it. It was generally kept under wraps what it was about, but Danielle Deadweiler, whom we love was the star of Station 11, or one of the stars of Station 11 was going to play.

A scientist who, it sounds like, loses her family in a kind of sci-fi-type lab experiment accident and it has to find them in some other universe or other world. It sounds very intriguing. Love Daniel Deadweiler. The show's not going forward at HBO. This is really public and really interesting, and I think there's two ways to look at it. Both may be partially true. Neither may be true.

We don't have particular insight into this as of yet. One takeaway is that this is just a classic, big old pissing match between two rich lions, basically. Because it sounds like JJ was like, here's the show, here's the budget. We are going to need, quote, north of $200 million to make this season of television, which is, this is not a quote, north of what they apparently paid for the Game of Thrones spin-off, which comes packed in with a lot more goodwill and, you know,

audience interest. Yes. And from what we understand, the HBO Discovery Warner people were like, might you consider lowering that number? And the answer was no. And they did a stare-down, and I don't know who blinks in a stair-down when you don't have to pay $200 million for an unknown property. Unclear.

but that's one takeaway from it, right? Yeah. The other would take away from it, and I'm not sure if I agree with this one, because I think that clearly when you're dealing with something like this in the stratosphere financially and ego-wise, it's probably a lot of blame to go around,

but it's worth keeping an eye on after this phenomenal year that HBO and Warner's had, not just with the content, and you can go back in our archives to see all the shows that they made of the last year and a half, both for HBO and HBO Max that we loved. But this incredible, year where their streaming service and streaming strategy seems to have absolutely worked like gangbusters

and separated HBO Max from the pack in a way that I'm not sure people were ready to predict when it launched a year ago. No, certainly not. Is this what you want to be doing? Do you want to suddenly be sending a signal to all caps this town that maybe you're not as open for business as you used to be anymore? Maybe you're not as creator-friendly as you used to be anymore. maybe all the stuff that got you here,

maybe you're not valuing it as much as he used to before. I do think that it's worth mentioning that it seems to me a little bit, like some of the budgetary price tags put on these shows when they were reported on are a little bit like Los Angeles Rams contracts. Where you're like, so you're giving this guy $80 million for two years? I thought you were way over the cap and have no backup defensive linemen.

And then it's like, oh, but it's like baked into this and it's guaranteed that. but then they have an out here. And there's a lot of nuance to it. Matt also did on the town when they did their mailbag episode last week. I was listening to it earlier in the week. Did it a really good job explaining why some of these numbers are really high. So like I think you and I both really all-l when we saw that Noah Bomback's white noise adaptation for Netflix is at like $140 million reported budget.

Some of that stuff is because of the lack of residuals that are also going to be baked into. it because it's going to live in perpetuity on a streaming service and it won't be sold over and over again and have like these external revenue streams. So people who work on these projects get paid once and that's it. Right. Like they can't be they can't then add on like my home video fees or my, you know, whatever. Yeah, that's that's the wrinkle in the dealmaking now that things are just going to be locked and siloed off forever because the previous version of Hollywood was yeah, that you would shows could potentially be sold and resold into syndication or streaming rights that would come up for sale again and you could keep making money off of something. That's increasingly no longer the

case. So for a time, certainly with TV shows like Netflix, to get the projects it wanted away from the more traditional broadcasters or cable networks, was paying $1.25 on the dollar, $1.50, $2 on the dollar to guarantee that it could secure it. And they didn't mind because they didn't mind holding a lot of debt. Yes, that has changed now a little bit. But the movie stuff, I think, is still particularly fraught because movies have always been based on back-end participation by the by the principles so that when you see stuff like you know apple is securing this was it the f1 movie that joseph kizinski from top gun is going to make with brad pitt the deal-making is going to get nuts because i don't know if you saw that that movie is going to have a 30-day theatrical window so like they're going to make sure that

movie is getting getting out there um i don't know man say you're right i think the numbers are a little are a little wonky but i i think my choice here is not to mourn Demi Mon, which, by the way, Apple could now buy next week. So maybe we'll still get to watch it. Once Warner passes, it doesn't mean it's dead, although it definitely doesn't mean it's in great health. It means they can shop it around. Now, who else wants to spend $200 million for an original IP idea?

The list is Apple. That's the entire list. I just think it's a little screwy that we're talking about things in this ballpark. This is very summer blockbuster. This is very what has happened to movies. type of conversation to be having about TV. I mean, I'm not sure a Lord of the Ring series needs $200 million for a season of television. I mean, I'm not responsible for it.

I didn't make it, but I have to be honest, I crumbled and broke my anti-Amazon thing to buy some cookie pans, cookie sheets the other day. So I contributed, I guess, in my way. So you're welcome, elf fans. But it's just a little screwy that this is the realm of which we're having these conversations. I think it's also worth mentioning, and this is actually a segue into Obi-W. want is you got to be careful, make sure you're getting what you pay for on these things. And I find that more often than not, when watching a lot of these blockbuster shows, whether it's

because of the screen I'm watching them on or the time of day I'm watching them on or the state of mind I'm watching them on or my relative level of engagement to the stories that they're telling. you know, Stranger Things, I enjoyed very VFX heavy season, a lot of it taking place in an alternate dimension. Obi-Wan, obviously, a ton of stuff going on there,

some of it shot in the volume, the stage that they've built, the LAD screen stage that they've built. Some of it, as Van and Charles pointed out, seemingly taking place in Santa Monica. But then, you know, I watched stuff like, you know, I just mentioned before we get into France,

stuff like both for all mankind and peekie blinders are back this weekend and uh i get a lot of enjoyment out of those shows and for all mankind has like six set pieces a year and most of that show takes place between people talking and rooms deciding what to do about going to space you know and it's just like you either have the goods or you don't and i'm sure for all mankind is an expensive show to make i'm sure peekie blinders an expensive show to make you know what's not an expensive show to make ben wishall and this is going to hurt which we're going to talk about next week, which is a show on AMC Plus. You can find it on Amazon if you have that subscription. And it's a show about an OBGYN doctor working at NHS hospital who's having a crisis. And it's just that sometimes

is like, you know what? This is what I come to television for is like great writing, great acting and a great story like this. I try, and this is actually, this is a very right. This is a good segue into talking about Obi-1 to the degree that we even want to talk about it this week. But I try to keep a little church in state. So I want to be careful. about how I phrase this, but a conversation I had in my other occupation was use the phrase that you just use, which is why I feel I need to share it, scenes of people in rooms talking. That phrase was brought up as something that needed to be increased in the project that I'm not going to name in order primarily to reduce the budget.

Secondarily, it was acknowledged that those are the scenes people like. that make people fall in love with TV shows. So people know, but it is bizarre to me that it actually is kind of a magic bullet and not a CGI one, that people, when they talk about Game of Thrones and why they loved it, they don't talk about the dragons. They don't. I mean, the dragons were cool, and when it burned up the supply chain and ate the goats, like everybody was thrilled.

It's not why they were obsessed with it, though. But that's not why. It was Tyrion talking to people. and we have definitely lost sight of that in the calibration of these things. And speaking of the Game of Thrones example, dragons didn't come until the end of the first season. And even then, they were just little babies. You know what I mean? Like, that was scaled appropriately.

And it'll be interesting when we get the new Game of Thrones content this year. If there's any of that spirit is in evidence. Now, it's a show called House of the Dragon. They're going to be dragons in the pilot. But not the spirit of the people in rooms talking, but the spirit of, We have to be confident in the story we're going to tell to start it at the ground floor. So we don't end up starting in the penthouse and then being like, hey, guys, not only are we in the penhouse with nowhere to go, but we're dropping, you know, $20 million an episode for the upkeep. Well, you think about even this huge set pieces that are in Game of Thrones.

Like, think about Battle of the Bastards or something like that or when the, all the people get revived, you know, at hard home or whatever. and the reason why those things are extraordinary aside from the visual aspect of it and the scope is how much you care about John. Because you've got so much equity in him as a character. And that's what I was thinking about when I was watching a specific scene in this week's Obi-One, which we don't have to belabor. I don't think this show is hitting for us. We don't have to like hammer it. But I noticed when they did this one scene where O'Shea Jackson Jr.,

arrived and he's like the leader of this like sort of way station for for uh jedi's on the run and they're like this fortress in the middle of an ocean which doesn't have any shields because they know no one could ever get into it is impenetrable and no one can get into it we couldn't possibly think of something and then tala and ben are like in eight seconds are like here's how we're going to get in here and it's not like oceans 12 it's like oh i have an ID card that might still work there. Let's hope that works. And how they rush that

is like kind of an indictment on this project. You know, like they don't actually take its own story seriously enough to make me give a shit whether you guys can get into this Fort Knox in the middle of an ocean. It's not just that.

You get the feeling that there were certain pegs that I think, and I understand why it would be this way, gave the creators and the executive team some peace of mind. I mean, the stress of making a show like this is enormous, not just the stress of making TV shows because it's super hard and stressful. But I think in good faith, in all honesty,

I think they take this very, very seriously, the mantle of beloved characters in a beloved world. And I think that can be anxiety-making at the very least, right? And so I think they have these certain pegs they feel they can rest on. Like, well, we know there's going to be, We know Obi-Wan is going to use the force. We know we have Darth Vader back in the mix. So, okay, so we have those things.

The problem is, what are we doing around them to get to them? I'm not even going to get into whether the battles such as they are are gripping or worthwhile, or if it was profoundly dispiriting to see even this version of Star Wars go back to its core competency on television, which is long hallways. or if these are good uses of Darth Vader. I mean, remember in Rogue One when he just shows up for 30 seconds and just regulates and you're like, oh my God.

And in this, the first time we see him, he's stretching in his Zuba pants and talking to Third Sister. I'm like, guys, that's Darth Vader. Maybe hide the ball a little bit because it's the best ball. There's no even reason to get in that. It's wild weird that Darth Vader is like,

you told me you were going to file your T-P PPS reports. Yes, and that the entire emotional fulcrum of a show of this level, at this scale, at this budget, at this expectation is hinging on the fragile, hinging unfairly on the fragile shoulders of a seven-year-old actress playing a character we know survives. Yep. It is so bizarre to me that, after all the years to make a show about Obi-Wan, no one had anything new to say about Obi-Wan other than, man, that guy really should have quit.

the Skywalker's when he had the chance, you know? It's not about him. The show has told us nothing new about him, shown us nothing new about him, developed nothing new about him. He's just kind of running behind the story. And my final thing is, you know, you and I,

we love heist. We love high stuff. Yeah. But I do think it's time for Star Wars to like invent AirPods. Because it's not just that she's just like, I'll sit here now. It's that she's sitting there talking into her cell phone the way my elderly parents do if they accidentally touch speaker and don't realize it. Yeah. Like this doesn't seem particularly subtle or plausible. It's just it's just a bummer. You know, it almost makes the, not to go down to dark path

with the two things that are bumming us out, but like people know that I, and they think unfairly, like was dinging better call Saul more than usual for its lack of storytelling. because we know how everything turns out. I mean, this is, this is even worse than that in that regard, right? Oh, I mean. What's going to be different at the end of this? What are we excited to be rooting for or learning about in the remaining few episodes? I just, I just don't think it has it.

And you know what? Like, Saul, like, when we're doing Saul and we'll be talking with Gail Sims about this in just a few minutes, we're like judging the final dish at the end of Top Chef. We're like, there is this microscopic error made. You know what I mean? or if we if we criticize a show like that. It's plating. It's not the cooking.

Yeah. And I would even say on the flip of that, there's Miss Marvel, which also came out this week, which we don't have to get too into. I would just say, while not my jam, I am in awe of.

Like how well-made it is, how entertaining it is, and how, like, shore-footed it is. That is a fucking incredible, incredible pilot when you consider it against Obi-1. You know what I mean? In some ways, the biggest compliment I have for the show from Ms. Marvel is that the weakest parts of it are the connective tissue to the MCU.

It is so strong and assured and vibrant and just feels like it has a reason to exist. And I think I especially appreciate you saying it's not necessarily your thing, but you understand how well it's being made. you know what I mean? Like, its reason to exist is to tell this story and this tone. It's only not my thing because, like, it's another coming of age,

like superhero origin story, which I feel like I've seen a lot of. And it's like, but I'm going to keep watching it. Like, I found the pace was breezy and, like, assured and, like, the sense of humor was good.

And it was an inventive, like, I don't know. Everything about it. I was just like, this is a show that knows exactly how to, how to be itself. The directors,

are these guys, Adela and Bilal who did the last Bad Boys movie and visually it's just a delight the way they put the text messaging not over the screen as we've been seeing but literally into the picture

like comic book balloons or comic book panels Bisha Lee wrote the script and it developed the show understands what makes the character valuable even if she had to change the powers for some Kevin Feigey decided reason like that doesn't even matter because you kind of get it and then

on the margins, like they just kind of nailed it. You know, I think the cast Imman Volani is the star, she's delightful immediately. Yeah. They cast the friend well, there's an actor named Matt Lince. I love, love, love, love, her parents. Yeah. Like, they're just phenomenal, warm

actors who are bringing us into the world and the balance between this is what it would be like to be a Pakistani American family in Jersey City versus is one living in Jersey City where also Iron Man exists, they nail it. It's just a really well-done show. And I think it's interesting that we're harping on just the core competency of it because that is what has started to feel like it has been fraying, you know, with these TV

properties and extensions from both Star Wars and Marvel. We get the big picture. We're thrilled, you cast Oscar Isaac. It made me excited to see the next whatever movie these characters are going to show up in. But you're making a TV show that you want me to watch now? make a good TV show for me to watch now. And it's not easy, no matter what the TV show is. And these two, as like a double feature, it was stark. It was stark. No Tony.

It was stark. Yeah. We should wrap up here so we can get into our conversation with Gail Simmons from Top Chef. She was so generous with her time and a really amazing interview subject. We love Gail. I hope she'll come back to talk to us again. We love Top Chef. Yeah, I feel like we didn't recap the season, but we kind of get into it

We get into it here. Yeah. So without further ado, let's get into our interview with Gail Simmons. We'll be back on Monday. Everybody, have a great weekend. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for.

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This is a big day for us here at the watch. Our guest is a cookbook author, food expert, and since the very first episode in 2006, an episode, I watched live, Chris, on the very first episode of Top Chef, the permanent judge, Gail Simmons. Welcome to the watch, Gail. Thanks, guys. By the way, four out of ten,

do not recommend you watch that episode. again. Have you ever gone back and watched the early episodes? No. Are you crazy? I would never do that to myself. I have seen clips of it over the years because they keep like popping up on the internet or my friends think it's hilarious to like send it to me because they went back during the pandemic and like rewatch the whole series from episode one. And I'm like, stop it. I don't want to see it. Although I am young. We all were once. We were. Is there? Is there a a moment in the show that you consider like, maybe it's like the Overton window, it changes over time, but like is there a season that you consider to be okay to watch, like when it became the show

that you recognize and you became the self that you recognize, or is that always sliding as we slip forward? No, I mean, yes and no. I do think we evolve. I do think that is part of the beauty and incredible resilience of our show to begin with. The fact that we're still on the air, 19 seasons, going into 20 seasons later, is because because we are always shifting and evolving. That includes the production.

That includes RMO. And that certainly includes us as the, you know, core judges, Tom and Padma and myself. But, you know, I don't know, it's hard to say. I would say, like, season six onwards, I think we really got our groove. But we were obviously doing well before season six. I mean, that was like four years into the franchise.

Season one was just such a different, such a different show. but we learned very quickly and season two we even made huge changes to season two was an incredibly dramatic show but I do think that season two is what people kind of what solidified the show to people as legitimate and worth watching and then I think season three

onward really see me I don't know I could talk about every season because they were also different but really like you know maybe season four onward was when I really really think we, like, found our group. Stephanie Isard and Richard Blaze is season. Right. Season one also is officially non-canon because Padma wasn't there. You know, it's like, it's like how William Shadner wasn't in the first episode of Star Trek. We don't even want to think about that episode. It's exactly the same. And you know, when we talked to Padma,

I guess two years ago, Andy, was I'm now in the zone where I can't remember when we did something. What is time. We talked a lot about how the show changed over the years and how cooking and restaurants had changed over the years too. I mean, obviously a lot of stuff being brought to light, a lot of sort of behaviors being changed for really good reasons. And I felt like Buddha in a lot of ways was like this great hybrid of some of the old school techniques that Top Chef celebrated in the beginning and that you sort of saw from say the Voltagios or something like that. But seemed to be like a genuinely nice guy. There's a lot of genuine nice people. Oh, sure. Yeah, for sure.

However, yes. No, I know exactly what you mean. And I actually think there's a lot of really interesting things about Buddha as sort of like a poster child in a way for what we've been trying to work towards. And we are so proud of him for. Number one, yes, fine dining, extraordinary skill as a technician in the kitchen, years of dedication and experience, you know, which basically at this. point all our chefs have. But he truly did show that amazing balance of his own sense of identity, the use of who he is as a person where he came from, the story of his father. He's from Australia. He has, you know, Malaysian roots, Chinese roots, Australia, moving across the world and cooking

in some of these incredible kitchens around the world and then kind of culminating. And by the way, when I say culminating, it's far from over. Like we are going to just begin to see him in his own right now. But what I think is the most interesting about him and how he is such a great example for the show this season and our evolution is that he truly grew up watching the show, right? Yeah, that's what I was going to ask about. 17 years ago, he was watching the show as a very young kid

because again, we're really old and we've been on the air a really long time. 17, 16 years ago, he watched the show and said to himself, this is what I want. That quote in the finale of like, I didn't want to be an astronaut. I didn't want to be a scientist.

I didn't want to be whatever, an author, whatever the quote was, this is where I wanted to be. And here I am. And he manifested it. And that's also like an interesting sort of meta situation for us. because he wanted to be on this show and go through that experience and he had this singular goal and he did it.

But along the way, he was able to bring to it. It wasn't like he just snapped his fingers and said, I want to be a chef and became this person. I mean, he worked for 17 years to do it. And I think along the way, he learned a lot as a leader, as a chef, as a cook, as a friend, as a human, as a citizen of the world. And I think he brought all that with him. But I do think that's fascinating, the idea of the next generation of chefs growing up understanding

and watching Top Chef, because the show itself... He studied every episode. He studied every challenge. I mean, it's a different game. He was playing a different game. You see that on Survivor, where people are playing now, where they've written dissertations on Survivor

and are now playing Survivor. And one thing I think to Top Chef's credit and why I love it and never miss an episode and I've never seen an episode of Survivor, is that while it is a competition, the game part of it isn't always what leads. And especially over the last few seasons, I think in a really wonderful way,

the relationship between Top Chef and the industry has shifted slightly, where it begins to feel like you're leading the industry where it should be going in a way and really privileging things that we've seen, we saw really beautifully this season, which is not just diversity, but personality and emotion and connection,

storytelling, all these aspects of cooking, in addition to the skill. That said, that's the other thing that Pouda brought, though, because he's seen all the episodes, he never reached for the pre-made pasta. You watch 19 seasons in the show. Every year, someone's like,

I got this. I'll just buy the English muffins. And you're like, have you never seen tough chef? Right. But he did reach for, you know, but he did make a mean, Amitrishiana, if you remember. And that was like,

that to me stands out in a way, that episode, the one episode where he cooked for his wife. Yeah. Yes. And just made the simplest pasta which we actually didn't think he was going to be able to do. And that was her dish.

Yeah. Yes. And ultimately, he was capable. His capabilities weren't in question. But his mental ability to, like, come down a bit, chill out a bit,

cook from the heart. Because sometimes he and many chefs before him have fallen into the trap of feeling like he had to be too chefy. And there were moments where I was like, you really chefed it up. He didn't win. It's not like he won every episode.

It's not like he won every challenge. He was on the bottom for some quick fires. He, you know, there were moments where he stumbled because I think he overthought. He was a little too cerebral. And we weren't seeing from him like any emotion in some of his cooking. I just seen the early episodes. But then it was like that moment onward he was just when he was able to just like make a simple, delicious pasta, I was like, okay, he does get it.

He does. He can find his soul and dig deep and just make something that doesn't have to be perfect, but that is meaningful. He also showed us something. that I guess you probably didn't get to see until the edit, but in the episode where one of the best of the season, by far, I thought the episode said in the historically black church, you know, and basically what the assignment was

and the cultural reference points and Buddha's like, I'm a Chinese-Malaysian guy from Australia. I guess I'll wing it. And he was willing to bring enough of himself to it, but also bring enough humility to it to really succeed in a challenge that I think previous contestants from previous years might have said, well, this isn't mine. You know, I don't have a place at this.

table, which is kind of stands against what the show is becoming. Well, not to the show is becoming, but I think that the entire point of that specific challenge and our sort of MO with doing specific episodes like that, there's going to be lots of episodes now, always. I mean, the whole point of the show is to take the chefs out of their comfort zone, right? That is the actual point. I say it all the time. If we wanted to just see how you cook perfectly all the time, we would just come to your restaurants, right? The entire point is to take you out of everything comfortable, usual, strip away and then see how you do, or else there's no point to being on the show about to being in the competition, right? If you have your comfortable kitchen

that you've cooked in for years and your sous chefs and all the ingredients you're used to and all the cultural reference points that you keep in this little kind of bubble of a world, then of course you're going to make the same thing, but it becomes rote. And also, where is your connection to cooking for other people, to that relationship that food serves to connect us, to universalize, to be an ally, because as a chef, that's what we're asking you to do, right? It isn't necessarily about you. It's about nourishing and feeding and sustaining other people. So we want people not only be out of their comfort zone because they've never cooked with an ingredient, but out of your comfort zone, because the cultural touch point is different. Truckee, by the way, I don't have a cultural touch point

to Freemanstown. I'm a Jewish white girl from Canada, but my God, that was the best thing I'd ever done, not only for me, because I learned and I grew and I was able to immerse myself and be humbled by it, but because I got to then not only learn about Houston, learn about the story of slavery in this country and how that story of freedom came to be, but then gets to see it in the chefs and how they interpreted it too, right? So, like, that's the point. And, and yes, Buddha really understood that it isn't about him. It's about this place, this lesson, and the greater story that it can tell and what it can seek us. Right. That was a rant. I wanted, no, it was important to say. And I did want to ask on the point,

that you just made about comfort zone, specifically about the finale, because we have, obviously, we have a lot of general questions for you about the show, but we're now just, we're still only about a week removed from, from the finale. One thing that really struck me about it was, for the first time in a while, it felt like the three finalists were cooking with joy, with like a palpable sense of happiness and lightness in the kitchen. This isn't a judgment on past seasons because the past two seasons have featured some of the very, very best cooking and very, you know, just the highest level stuff that we've ever seen as viewers. But thinking specifically about last year in Portland, you know, there was, it felt some, some chefs felt stressed out. You know, Dawn had time management issue.

Shoda kind of was, was, was, was crumbling a little bit. And I don't know how much of that was carryover from having to cook on the raining, freezing Oregon Beach the week before. But this, this season felt like lighter, you know, and they felt like they were doing their best and they were ready to live with whatever they put on the plate, you know, that didn't have that, that heaviness hanging over it. I wonder if that was true on your side. side of the table as well and why you think that might have been. I think it was to some extent. And I think the context is important also, greater context of the world and the moment in

history when they were cooking. I mean, last year, I think back and I still have, I mean, we all have post-traumatic stress of some sort from the last couple years of life, no matter who you are, no matter what you do. And coming to Portland for that season, for season 18, um, you know, you. The chefs were in an enormous turning point in their careers in the industry. Everything was up in the air. They didn't know if they had restaurants to go back to.

Half of them didn't have restaurants anymore. The restaurants had closed. They had come with like open wounds, you know, to the season. And the season was challenging in ways we could have never imagined. We knew the pandemic. We had made a bubble. We knew it was going to be a challenge in a thousand ways. And then, of course, there's all the unexpected pieces to it that Portland gave us, for better or worse.

we were cooking through the worst wildfires the world's ever seen. We were cooking through political and civil unrest. And so there was all these external factors that added stress to their cooking on top of their personal journeys and abilities. So I think that you can't underestimate that. And the fact that Portland gave us the contestants that they did at the time they did and they were able to accomplish it is like extraordinary. You know, and it wasn't a perfect season.

but it was a really honest season and we're very proud of it. But coming back this year, you know, we were still getting tested for COVID every three days. We still couldn't go indoors to anywhere publicly. There were still constraints on how we structured the season from production standpoint. But I think a year later, the chefs were in a better place. The industry has come a long way. It was open for business. And they were too.

so they had a little firmer footing. And I also just think it has to do with the three particular people who made it to the finale, each of whom had really like amazing journeys to get there. I mean, we know about Buddha. We've talked about his like singular pursuit. Evelyn just is the most joyful, soulful, talented. You know, she was like an under, not an underdog. She was sort of just like, I think people underestimated her.

But she just cooked from the heart the whole way through and, continued to give us. I mean, she was winning from day one. But, you know, you kind of still thought, I don't know, she's like, she's small, but she was mighty. I mean, her softwa, her dishes. Like, I still had so many memories of specific dishes she made for us. I'll never forget.

And she also was so amazing as a teacher, both to the other contestants and to us about her culture, about Mexican cooking, about Texas. I mean, when she walked into a room and there were Houston chefs in the room, like I'm thinking of the barbecue challenge in particular, like the whole room, stood up as her because she's still the love there skinless.

And then Sarah, who like, you know, was eliminated early on and just fought like a mofo. I mean,

I don't, I mean, she just killed, she crushed it. Tom would come back from Last Chance's kitchen every day, every time he shot

and being like, oh, Sarah. Like, yeah, I don't understand. She couldn't do this. Obviously, it's the beginning of the show,

but man, she's good. She's good. Like, he was like, watch out. And then she came back and, you know, was so triumphant. But so humble too.

So I think they all just really were like happy to get there regardless. I saw that Sarah posted this beautiful thing about Buddha and she was just like, there's no one else I'd rather lose to. This was the perfect ending. This is how it should be. We all did great and we're really proud of ourselves and each other. I had a question about Last Chance's Kitchen because, you know, we've seen a couple of chefs slingshot back out of there stronger, you know,

And I think, I'm trying to remember if Sarah was unique in terms of how long she was in there. And then also had, you know, funnily enough, like a second chance at Last Chance Kitchen because she had lost, I think, that won to Ashley, right? And then Ashley came back and then Sarah got to get back into the competition. Where's your head at with LCK? Because it is kind of weirdly become. It's a big deal. Yeah. And I click immediately as soon as the episode's over.

I go watch Last Chance Kitchen. the time constraints are very, very, very intense, but in some ways, it's like cooking, it's a very pure version of cooking. It's almost like watching a cook on the line get after it. Like a hyper quick fire on steroids, right? Yeah. But it's also stripped everything away.

Like, that's the whole point of it. Everything is stripped away. There's no trick. You've got 15 minutes. You've got only time. You've got the kitchen. It's funny that I didn't pay attention either, sort of secretly.

Sorry, Bravo. to Last Dance Kitchen for a long time. I mean, I knew that Tom loved it, and I knew that it served a purpose, and Kristen came back and won, and Brooke came back and won, and Joe came back and won. And so I, like, I watched sometimes,

and I always, I mean, Tom's always my insider, so, like, he would always keep me posted on the development what was going on there, what he was, because he, in a way, in a really raw, different way than Padma or I because of that. So this season, when we were in Houston, I went to our producers

and I was like, I want in. I need to be in. I want to be part of this because it's so cool now. Like I really have to say, I'm like, I want to see it. I've never ever been to Last Kent Kitchen. Can I just sit in? Like at first I just wanted to sit in, you know, where they have the eliminated contestants sitting

to cheer people on and do the commentary. I'm like, can I just be there one day? It's like wearing a hoodie maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Sunglasses. A mustache. But, and they were like, well, no, why don't we just make one with you?

And, like, you start, let's do it. Like, if you want, we'll build something that makes sense. So they let me do an episode this season. And it ended up being a very relevant episode to the context of the show. Because, number one, it was the delivery ghost kitchen, last chance kitchen episode. So it was the fall of the restaurant wars. Jackson had been eliminated. It was about creating a restaurant concept, but they had 45.

minutes and they had to cook a takeout order from like a ghost kitchen or a restaurant concept and deliver it to me and Tom. So that's like something that's happening in the restaurant industry, very relevant right now. There's so many delivery ghost kitchens. You know, the restaurant doesn't exist, but it's a concept that you can just get delivery from. And it was kind of Jackson's moment because everyone was so up in arms and surprised that Jackson was eliminated. And it was up against Dara, so I'm sure he came in being like, I got this. you know, he's pretty talented guy too. And I was so thrilled to watch it and be there and eat their food because they both did,

like what they both were able to accomplish in those 45 minutes of a quick fire, I was like, this is real. Like, I could not believe that they did it. And they both did great. I mean, it wasn't like Sarah won by a landslide. But in the end, I just, what she did, her concept was so. like solid for something that sounded so creative and different and interesting. And she,

it was like she'd been obviously making that food for years, which was because she was very confident in it and good at it. Also, in the end, only one of the contestants had taste buds that worked. That's also true. But interestingly, Jackson's food was all good. Like, that's the crazy part of Jackson, right? By the way, we did not know that. hand to God, we did not know that Jackson had had COVID and lost his taste,

but until the chefs found out as well. Like, after we eliminated him at restaurant once, after. Like, that night was when our producers told us as well. It's one of the most impressive things I honestly have ever seen in any competition. Yeah. But also, because there was another chef this year who was continually dinged for not seasoning his food or putting salt in it. So if you had asked the judges, which guy here has COVID.

Maybe he would have said, Luke. Maybe. Mind blowing, yeah. It was wild. But to your point, that Last Chance Kitchen episode with Jackson, it wasn't about seasoning. And he wasn't eliminated from restaurant wars because of seasoning. You know, both, he said to know how to do that,

but he seasons his food well. And it was good. It just wasn't as interesting and as technically, incredible as Sarah's was. It wasn't that his was bad. Hers was just better, which is almost always the case. So a moment ago, I was alluding to the interview we did with Padma, where she talked about, she really credits a moment when the two of you became executive producers as a moment when you both were able to put a little bit more of your shoulder into pushing the mechanism of the show forward and changing it to a degree. Obviously, the industry has been throughout people. We've all personally been throughout people in the last few years. the show as well.

You mentioned the Portland season. I mean, I thought that was an incredible feat, first of all, by everyone involved. But also, such an incredible, like, test for what the show is and could be and bringing back the returning judging panel, which I found to be absolutely fantastic, because not only were these people that I love seeing on TV, but they had a different and more intimate knowledge of that year's, of that year's contestants. Yeah. The same version, in a way, like what you get to have, where you taste them week to week,

as opposed to sort of parachuting in and being like, that's too salty. That's not good. or whatever it might be. I guess, broadly speaking, I was wondering where you feel the show is in its evolution. I mean, obviously, it's still changing in a way that keeps it relevant, that keeps it entertaining, that keeps it exciting. Over these past three seasons, which are just really unprecedented out of the 19, you have the historically great All-Star season, you have the incredibly challenging and unique Portland season,

and now this rebound season from it, where do you think the show is in its evolution? and what levers do you still feel need to be pushed? A lot of questions there, Andy, but I like them. I sometimes don't even put a question in that. So I feel like all I can say is you're welcome. Yeah. Okay. So I think first and foremost, I think, and I said this in a way earlier,

I think the reason our show has had the success it has, especially in these last three years, where it has not just maintained, but exceeded expectations. in its ability to bring something new and different and exciting to our viewers is our ability to stay nimble, to evolve and to reflect this moment just not just in our industry, but in the world. We do not follow a script. We are not a studio show. We face everything with loud conversations. We don't just say, well, it doesn't matter what's happening outside. the doors. We're just going to keep plowing forward regardless, if we're going to just do this formula in this studio, regardless of the fact that like war is raging quite literally outside these doors. Like that is not how we handle it. We address, we have conversations

both in production leading up months before and then very publicly in, um, within the context of every episode where we face issues and we aren't afraid to make our voices heard on where we stand on issues, how we think the industry is changing, evolving the world too. I mean, we talk about, you know, cooking with World Central Kitchen. We did an episode in Houston, I think, that was incredibly powerful about female leaders in Houston for many, many reasons, not just the fact that there are so many extraordinary women in Houston and in greater Texas who have made impact in America who often go unsung, but, you know, one of whom was the daughter of the first female governor of Texas,

who also happens to be the ex-CEO of Planned Parenthood. These are big statements to say on a show in the middle of a lot of human women's rights, reproductive rights, all these things, health care being up for debate in this country, etc. You know, speaking about Freeman's town, making sure to include, you know, the story of the immigrant populations in Houston and the story of black freedom to slavery in this country. Those are very loud discussions that we had and continue to have. I do not credit myself entirely or Padma or Tom for.

those. I think we all push and we all make sure that these conversations can be had for sure. But I also really am grateful to Bravo to our production team, Magical Elves, and to our executive producers and showrunner who have been running the show from the beginning. You know, our executive producer, Donnie, who I feel like you guys spoken to over the years, started as a PA on season one. We haven't, but we should. And now she's a showrunner. You should.

She is an encyclopedia. of Top Chef. She's unbelievable. And they have never brushed us under the carpet. They have any concern we have, any topic we want to broach. They are open. It is a big conversation. I really do also credit Tom as our industry North Star in a lot of ways for keeping us on the straight and narrow from the beginning, not just making sure that, you know, it is fair, that the contestants are considered and that their food and their challenges are kept relevant. but also so that the state of the industry is understood and our sensitivity of that. And, you know, sure, yes, I think we all weigh in and we all feel very invested and we all feel very heard about our concerns.

And I think that continues to be a conversation that I'm very lucky to have on television because it isn't always the case. And I think it has contributed to our longevity. So the state right now, I think that we are, we were talking about. thrilled about how our season came out. And I think that we are going into a really big moment. We're going into our 20th anniversary. Like, I have to say it to myself over and over again, because that is unbelievable. 17 years of making the show, but 20 seasons. And we are heading full force into our 20th season. And we're going to push further in a million ways. I mean, we're already preparing, as you know, to go abroad. So we will not be shooting in America for the first time.

and that's logistically, wow, I'm really glad I'm not my executive producer, I'm really glad I'm not the showrunner because it's got our hands full in many ways, none the least of which is that I text her and email her every day with like, I have an idea and can we do this and what about this? You know, and I'm sure everybody else is doing the same. So that's going to be big and it's going to pose even more challenges. And that's just one level of a way where we can continue to push. I think the contestants will be completely different this year, and we're taking an angle that no one has seen us do.

I think that it allows us to have a more global discussion about cuisine, about history, global history. We've accepted on the few finale where we've gone abroad. I think mostly we have been introspective about this country's journey and how food impacts that journey, you know, talking about the influences. Yes, the immigration story to this country, but now we're going to be outside the country, so it'll just give everyone a much more global perspective on food. And we're going to a place that also has a really interesting immigration,

historic perspective. But from a, you know, but from a bribe, from across an ocean. So that's pretty great. the fact that we're able to keep pushing, and I think that's so beautiful about our topic, right? Food as a general topic. It isn't, you know, it's like we, this is a show about many things.

We just do it through the lens of food, I think. It used to be like a food show, and now I feel like it is a show about many things, but it's just we use food as a lens with which we are able to have all these, through which we're able to have these conversations about so many bigger things. so this will allow us to do it further, as long as we can all get there safely. I just want to see Tom's International Hat game.

I just want him to wear... I'm so, so excited. I mean, the beret in France is a must, maybe a beef feeder thing. Not that we know where you're going, but... No, I know. I'll sit back. I wanted to ask...

Also... Oh, that's it. Oh, no, no, go ahead. That's a big point of, you know, don't think the head of our wardrobe department isn't fully in on the joke. It's her favorite thing. The important part is Tom in on the joke.

Oh, he's in on the joke. He's in on the joke. He also looks straight in a hat. You know, there's like a Twitter account, an anonymous Twitter account dedicated to Tom's hat. Hysterical. Yeah. A must follow.

I wanted to actually ask about the judging. You know, in the same way that I've come to really love Last Chance Kitchen, I kind of want to pitch you on this idea, which is postseason, release the judging tapes. You know, I would love to hear. Oh, me. No, but so here's the... Yeah, but just I'm curious whether or not, you know,

because most of the judging clips usually wind up, creating this air of suspense so that you don't know who's going to win the actual end of the episode. But, you know, I find that the way that you describe food is actually like crucial to the show because we can't taste this food. So the judges are our kind of avatar for going through these dishes. Absolutely. I was curious if you could talk a little bit about what it's like to judge maybe once it's down to five, four or five people, because it does seem like, especially this group that you just finished, it was like finding, it wasn't ever catching a mistake. It was like the separation of minor, minor blemishes in these last few dishes. And how is that different from when you're judging earlier in the season and you're maybe having some, this wasn't cooked through or the rice didn't work out and like sort of.

to larger, larger swings and misses? Well, that's a big point of it. Earlier on in this season, the first several episodes, even though there's many more people and we need to acknowledge and sort of sift through all of them and take into account every dish, it's a lot easier in some ways to say, okay, so-and-so, yes or no, they were good enough. They're definitely worth the worst one. Okay, put them aside and then narrow it down very quickly.

Or there were some glaring mistakes. And so it's very easy to say, okay, that person is definitely on the bottom and we need to go back to that person and we examine them on the bottom and talk to them and figure out what happened there. Towards the end, you think the judge's table gets faster, but it doesn't because as much as we have less people, the challenges are more difficult, there's more components, and we go much deeper because there's so much there to get you because it's not easy. You can't just be like, well, that person won and that person lost, and we can just get to the point really quickly. Our judge's table, which you've probably heard ad nauseum, our judges' tables are much longer than they seem. It's like, you know, eight to 12 minutes on camera in the final edit of the show,

but we're there for three to four hours, sometimes much, much longer, especially on finale. We used to be there for like eight hours, but we've, like, condensed the production of it and made it more efficient. And, you know, that was very conscious on. our production to do because we were like seeing the sunrises and that was not healthy for anyone. I was like falling asleep at judges table. But still four hours of sitting and really talking like, yes, there is a lot of interesting

stuff there that you do not see for sure. And so I definitely don't think anyone wants to watch those four hours. There's a lot of like sitting around like this and there's a lot of lighting changes and there's a lot of like banter and jokes and silliness, but there's a lot of other really relevant stuff that just can't stay in. Sure. Because they just don't have the time. And that would be interesting to watch.

One example that comes to mind from this season, and I actually haven't seen the full final judge of it, so I'm not quite sure what kept in. But the first episode of our finale in Arizona, when they were cooking with the Chilte Pines and, you know, they were making a sweet and a savory dish, and DeMar was still in the game. And he was eliminated that episode.

That episode was an example where they had to make it a little more suspenseful. Or else he would change the channel. But in my memory, having not watched what the final edit was, DeMar's dishes were distinctly not as good as the others. Like it wasn't about us. I mean, Damar, God, he was my man. Like, I really, we all are in love with him. We all think he's incredible.

and we really were disappointed that he really didn't show up the way I knew he intended to that day. But, you know, the edit needs to make it, not that we're doing anything tricky or, you know, like, suspectful. Like, I don't know. But we, you know, that was an instance where the three others were so good. And he did have mistakes. And so we sort of knew going and we didn't speak to each other, but with thoughts on the judges table, it really was apparent that, unfortunately, his were not at the same level as the others,

which often doesn't happen at that stage in the game. And then we off to the finale. That's interesting. And that was a much deeper conversation. It's so interesting. And it makes me think of what you said a moment ago, which I agree with completely, that the show is so much more than a food show now. It's so much more than a competition show as well.

And I definitely don't watch, everyone watches the show in their own way. they get their own things out of it. But one of my takeaways from this season was, and I don't think it's just because I'm a veteran viewer, I didn't feel a great deal of suspense this season. And it in no way took away from my pleasure. You didn't or you did? I did not.

And I don't mean over the course of the season, I definitely did. I mean individual in each episode. One picked up the vibes, the chef's body language, you know, the types of dishes that were being put up in comparison to others. Who was going to be eliminated or who wasn't? I did, maybe the better way to say isn't that it wasn't. suspenseful is that I never disagreed, even though obviously I didn't get to taste the food. Or it's never right. No.

But I don't think it took away from the enjoyment. It's an interesting thing that we talk about posts, and I'm sure there's many post-mortems going on about this, about this season going into next season with our production and we will all talk about it as well, is, you know, because we've sort of headed in a slightly different direction or a slightly new direction, and it's happened naturally and gratefully that the chef are, they work well together, they support each other. There's a lot less competition, there's a lot less drama. And that's been an organic thing that's happened over the course of 19 seasons to get where we are for many reasons. I think that is reflective of the industry.

I think we are in a new phase of where we were 17 years ago in kitchens. I think it's not necessary. I think at the same time, reality competition as a television genre has evolved And it's also not about nastiness and villains and drama. It's just not. It's about talent and skill and learning and evolving, whatever. So that conversation is relevant to the tension that we create in the show. And are we getting too soft? Do we need to create more tension?

Is that some people complain about it? Some people watch the show because of it's kind of thrill of the competition. and are we, is it too kumbaya? Do you remember that the member of the meme, before we had memes, when the whole thing about reality shows was that I'm not here to make friends? Literally, they are now there to make friends.

And that was tough. Yes, yes. And I like that. And if that happens, it's like you put people through and experience together. And they all come out changed and they are the only other people

that they have experienced this with. So you form bonds. Also, this is something that I've talked about many times before. it. Being in competition with the people cooking beside you is actually antithetical to what a kitchen is. It's what the reputation of kitchens, you know, used to be that everyone is like, I'm just in it for myself and you put your head down and you don't help the other person beside you. But these days, this generation, we all now understand when you're in a kitchen, you are working as a team.

You are there for a common goal. You are there because you, you, you, build each other up and high tide raises all ships, right? And so to then get into a kitchen after cooking that way and come into a kitchen where we're asking you to not do that. We're asking you to remember that the person cooking beside you who's awesome and who you love as a person and you're getting to know and you're learning from, but also your competitor is really like antithetical to what they're used to. And so they understand it, but they've also realized that you don't need to be.

an asshole to be a competitor. You let your food speak for yourself and the food is where the competition is. But the camaraderie of a kitchen is actually like at the root of how kitchen teams work and are made better for it. So we've been so generous with your time. We should let you go in a moment. But I did have to ask, especially speaking of camaraderie, one of the best things about the show is it's apparent how well everyone involved gets along with each other and good spirits about all these things. And though the seasons change and the competitions change, every year there's at least one or two circumstances where the chefs have been cooking, it's like 99 degrees, whether it's Texas or California, or wherever. Suddenly out of a cool green room, you and the other judges emerge looking incredible.

Tom's wearing some sort of straw hat number. You're wearing a gown. Someone hands you an ice cold glass of Turlotto branded chardoner or whatever. We don't sweat. You know, none of us ever crack to sweat ever. And then with your immaculate makeup and everything, you then swan around and eat, you know, 15 plus dishes and then have a full day of work. So you guys know how to do this by now. But I wonder in those times when you emerge beautiful and smiling, you often have like maybe a past contestant there with you for the first time or a local person. What do the nobs not know about how to survive a day like that that, that you know after,

17 hard-fought years of judging? You know, that you don't have to finish every plate, that we're going to talk it out and make sure that everyone agrees and we're going to be fair and everyone's voice will be heard and, you know, speak up because we have really loud voices and we won't let you get a word in if you don't speak up for yourself. We always talk to our guest judges, whether they're an alumni or, you know, the local a chef or the chef who's come with us for the day beforehand. The producers talk to them.

I'm always like a bit of the Welton wagon. Most of them are very dear friends more than not. So we reach out tonight before. We all get together. They've walked the show. They know the show. And especially the alumni, they're really nervous to be on the other side, but also really excited.

And so I think it's eye-opening, but it's also really natural because we just make it in discussion. There's not a lot of like, stop, say this, do this, stop. awkwardness. Like we don't stop down, you know, we stop down, we make edits or or make people repeat things for camera as minimally as possible. So it really just feels like you're sitting at the dinner table. You know, their only request is that probably lead the discussion and only one person speak at a time to make sure that the cameras and audio catch them. And that sometimes we need to just like remind everyone about. But that's it. I think we just make it as natural as possible.

The other thing is that we do, we are humans and we do stop and take into account people's needs. We need bathroom breaks. We need our waters full because we're scorching in the heat. That episode, that first episode of our finale in Arizona when we had Carlotta from Alciaro Cafe, who is just a legend, an extraordinary woman. But she, we were sitting in the sun for hours and she was like, I need a break. I need to go into it. And so we stopped, we stopped down for probably half an hour.

She went into the cool. We shot around her, you know, so that there wasn't an empty chair at the table so that we could so the chef could keep cooking. And then she just tasted the food inside in the air conditioning and then came out and gave her comments. Because things happen. I've had wardrobe malfunctions. We've all had issues happen at the table.

But, you know, the beauty of editing, we want to make it look seamless and obviously inclusive and smooth. But just like any show, we have to keep it at 46 minutes. Sure. So we need to get it done. But when your old boss, Danielle Balloud, you know, jet ski's in for an afternoon. There's no desire to haze him. There's no, like, here, eat 20 oysters and then join us here. Okay.

I mean, actually, I had dinner with him last night totally randomly. I went to one of his new restaurants here in New York for the first time. I was actually having dinner with his wife, and he came to the table when we were talking. He was like, wait, the episode aired, and I didn't see it. Wait, how was it? Was I okay? Did I come? And I'm like, Daniel, you were great.

It was awesome. Don't worry. You can watch it on your own time. He was like, but wait, who won? I didn't follow because I was watching, you know, in real time. And then I couldn't watch my episode. And now I don't even know who the winner is. I was like telling him about Buddha.

You were spelling it, yeah. Yeah, he was like, no, he needed to know. He's like, I mocked the bandwagon. Just catch me up, catch me up. But that was also a really special episode. for him too, for obviously many reasons. Not only was it the episode before the finale episodes, but it was at this restaurant, Blue Dorn,

where his chef, Aaron, who had cooked for him many years in New York, had opened this really exceptional restaurant in Houston, and the chef made amazing food that day. They all really brought it. And so I think he was like really invested, which is just the best because we care what he thinks, because he's still my boss, he'll forever still be my boss.

And even Tom, I think, you know, Tom's like, he's still kind of mine. He's everybody's boss. You know what I mean? He's the boss. Gail, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for being so generous with your time, and we can't wait to see how your European vacation goes.

We will keep you posted. Thank you guys. I really love the joy you bring to your recap, and we're honored that you still care. Thanks for following along to the ride. We care so much, and there wasn't even room in our conversation for me to talk to you about your memoir, which I read, and Chris didn't. So I feel like you'll have to come back next season.

It's like 15 years old, so there's a lot. It's happened. I assume there's a new edition coming. It's not a memoir. There will be a part new. But yeah. Okay, good. Thank you guys.

Thanks so much.