The Watch - The Simple Pleasure of ‘Marcel the Shell With Shoes On.’ Plus, ‘Irma Vep’ Filmmaker Olivier Assayas.

Episode Date: July 28, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the allegations that old episodes of ‘Stranger Things’ are being reedited and the interesting possibilities it introduces for streaming television (1:00). Then they talk about the sweet animated movie ‘Marcel the Shell With Shoes On’ (20:15), before Andy is joined by French filmmaker Olivier Assayas to talk about his decision to remake his 1996 movie ‘Irma Vep’ into an eight-part miniseries (27:51). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Olivier Assayas Production: Kaya McMullen and Mike Wargon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Charles Holmes, the Ringer Music Show. And I'm Cole Kushner from Dysect, and Charles and I are teaming up to create Last Song Standing, a new show where we determine an artist's single best song by debating our way through their entire catalog. And for our first season, we're covering Kendrick Lamar. We're talking good kid to Pimple Butterfly, Dan, Mr. Morow, the mixtapes, the Lusies, and the features. Listen to Last Song Standing on the Dysect podcast feed only on Spotify.

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vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan and I am an editor at

the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. The podcaster with the shell with headphones on. It's Andy Greenwald. That was good. That was good. I try. It should be, it was, we're going to talk a little bit about Marcel the shell with shoes on today, but it should have been the podcaster with shoes on. I don't know. It's been a long day, Andy. It's great to see you. It's Thursday. Today's a special one. Why don't you tell people what you got next? We're going to be chatting about some stuff. And then the back half of the episode is an view I got to do with one of my filmmaking heroes, quite honestly, the French filmmaker Olivier Asayas, who has just completed his first work. Well, no, I guess Carlos was technically

a TV show. It's sort of hard to tell. Technically, yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's a film. It's a TV show. But his first HBO series, which is a reworking, reimagining of his phenomenal 1996 film, Irma Vap. He reimagined it as a more as a contemporary story, eight-part mini-series, starring Alicia Vicander. Dude, you're just fucking, you got so much mustard on the pronunciations today. This is great stuff.

I, you know, I, you know how, like, you make me feel like I, like, honestly didn't finish high school the way you just said, Olivia Aceas and Alicia Viconder. I nod to the continent in everything that I do.

You know what I mean? I bring a kind of an old world energy to this podcast, but you're the vibrant, bustling American metropolis. and that's why this is a successful show. You know what I mean? I'm like the cobblestone boulevards,

and you are the hot asphalt in summertime. You're Henry James on Mark Twain. That's where we are, right? By saying that as the analogy, you just made yourself Henry James also. You know what I mean? You should have been like, you are, I mean, I don't know,

who wrote the Canterbury Tales again? And you are Elmore Leonard. I feel like that's a more specific. Look, the point is, got to talk to Olivier about Irma Vep. I know some listeners out there have been watching the show. I'll talk more as we get closer to it, but he is just a phenomenal intellect and thinker about film and TV.

And yes, guys, the interview is in English. Not that I could have done it in French, but I just want to be very clear. Do you find yourself slipping into like accidentally using a French accent when you talk to French guys? I don't understand what I don't. I reject the word accidentally. It's purposeful. But you know what I mean? Yeah.

No culture welcomes the appropriation of their language by outsiders more than the French. I feel like that when I casually talk about the Phillies, which is a pretty rare occurrence, sometimes I say, I find myself saying like Castellanos, you know what I mean? Like kind of how to yeah. No, that that's natural. Yeah. No, I don't know. I couldn't. I couldn't do it with this guy. But I think that I recommend people check out Armavap or check out part of it. But I do think the conversation is interesting because he has such a warm and inclusive and ultimately positive view of just the collaborative act of filmmaking that I found it really inspiring. So we'll get to that at the end, but we got some business first. Is he psyched about

Daredevil coming back to TV? He wasn't until I told him it was an 18-part movie. And then he was like, oh, Mondeu, you know, he got real excited. Andy, this is, so just quick programming notes, we will be doing our usual Saul recap that'll go live Monday after the episode airs. Also, wanted to just shout out next week, we get industry back. which you and I are frothing at the mouth for, and I'm sure we will have Mickey and Conrad back on really soon to talk about that. We also will probably be talking about Reservation Dogs Season 2, which I think premieres next Wednesday, which I'm very excited.

I can't believe that. Yeah, really excited. It's unbelievable. Today... By the way, Chris, just side note, I did ask Olivier Asayas line of French cinema about Thor Love and Thunder. Did you? I did. And what did you say?

I want to spoil it. I want to spoil it. But in Mavap, one of the characters has just filmed essentially a Thor movie, although it has a different name in which her character has castrated Thor. And they're like, this is actually great for the sequel because Thor can come back as can be rebooted as a transgender god. So you'll love the interview. Let's move on. I can't wait. I'm going to cancel my night plans to listen to this, honestly.

No, I'm just fucking around. You know I love you. No, no. You do that and I'll listen to your drug church. interview. It would be perfect. All right, Andy, I have a hot topic for you today. Okay, okay. I know that you've been very, like, much, much less online this week.

So I don't assume that you know about this story. So I have to paint you a word picture here. So one of the, like, sort of minor controversies on TV, Twitter this week is the accusations that the Duffer brothers, the creators of the Stranger Things television. television show, who have admitted in the past that they like sometimes do something in which I think they called Lucasing, George Lucasing, where they go back and maybe fix some VFX on the previous seasons of the show. And that essentially there was like a storm in a teacup this week because earlier in the month, a TikTok user said that they had discovered some discrepancies between

their DVD copy of Stranger Things Season 1, which I didn't even know that existed. And what you can see on Netflix, which is essentially there's a moment in the first season without spoiling anything where a character named Jonathan, who's like sort of an amateur photographer, has been sort of following the Nancy character and her friends. And he's taking pictures kind of like more voyeur, not voyeuristically, like in a sort of purvey way, but just sort of like capturing life as it happens. And then it's obvious that Nancy's about to have like an intimate moment with this guy, Steve, and he stops taking the pictures. Now, according to this TikTok user, who I don't even, you know, whatever, they were like,

like this was re-edited to make him seem less creepy. And the Stranger Things Writers Room, which has its own Twitter account, put out like a statement that was just like, just so you know, we have not and never will make edits on this show. You know, like we're not going to go back and like change the show.

I think I could actually get the actual quote, which might be helpful here. It is PSA, no scenes from previous seasons have ever been cut or re-edited and they never will be. In the intervening time also, like, any blog posts, there's been a couple of articles about this whole thing where people are like,

are the duffers re-editing stranger things to make it seem less pervy? And in fact, like, it's what happens when you aggregate three steps away from the actual moment is, like, no, they're not. And now they've had to retract those articles. I tell you all this just to ask you a question. Would you ever do something like this

with your show. It's a great question, and it's an interesting one. And I can't, I'll say two things. One, every single person who has ever made, I mean, this is true of anyone who's ever made anything, but particularly anyone who has ever made an episode of television, let alone a season, certainly people who have done much more accomplished works than I ever did, would love another bite at the apple. Whether it's an entire episode, you wish you could reshoot with a different director or just some editing tweaks, you know, that you wish you could make or, you know, make something a little more clear. Maybe you could have 80-yard one line that would have, at least for your frazzled nerves, offered some soothing sense that like...

Which to your point, the Duffers actually have said, like, we can fix... There's a moment in the most recent season where it's, the show is, the episode is set on the character Will's birthday in terms of like what day it's set on. But they never acknowledge that it's his birthday. and I think a lot of super fans were like, oh, this is supposed to be Will's birthday. And they were like, we fucked up. So we could actually go back

and have Winona Ryder ADR a different birthday for this character rather than have it just seemed like a discrepancy. But that impulse is never going away. But the answer I want to give speaks more to the way that I understand the differences between TV and movies and also, frankly, the appeal between TV and movies.

Because the thing that I love about TV, on two levels, both as a viewer and as someone who works on it, is the imperfect nature of it. Is the magazine deadline we're going to do our absolute best? It's never going to be perfect. And then we'll get to do it again. And so I kind of like that aspect of TV that you can, like warts and all, that there are decisions that clearly got retconned or, you know, framings or editing choices that affected, that didn't jive with how the show was meant to be perceived or changes things later. I also think there's a case to be made that creators are not necessarily the right judge in the moment of what's best. And the reason I bring that up is, I'm sure some of our listeners check this out as well, but friend of the pod,

we can say that now, Peter Gould, one time ate some yogurt on the pod, Bob Odenkirk, were on fresh air this week. And he didn't, to be clear, he asked us to stop recording. And then he ate yogurt. And then we kept recording. This was seven years ago. They were on fresh air this week. And they Peter Gold told an anecdote that I hadn't heard that maybe is very well known, which is there was a scene shot for Breaking Bad that he wrote, that he was very, very proud of between Saul and Walt,

early in Saul's debut into the season, I guess in the third season, in which Saul talks about all of his ex-wives and what they meant to him and how he got rid of them and why he's not married and all of these details. And it was an absolute kill-your-darlings.

It was cut for time. And both Bob and Peter were upset about that. And now they thank God every day that scene got cut because, I mean, Better Calls All the Show would have been impossible, right? Or certainly the current version of it. So all of that is to say that, like, they might, at a certain point, you have to let go. And I'm going to say something that I don't even know if I believe, which is that the idea, conception of movies as something that are slaved over and whittled away on and almost perfected, makes me more sympathetic to wanting to go back and get those things right.

But I also want Honda to shoot first. So I'm kind of arguing against myself by creating this binary. Where are you on this? So I think that things have changed a lot in the last. I think things have changed a lot. Let's just use our podcasting career as a good framework. When you and I were first starting to do this with Hollywood Perspectus back in the Grantland days, typically what would happen is like TV either existed in a world of transience.

You had to sit down and watch it when it was on. Or you could DVR or whatever, but you've, you watched it when it was on, or you bought or rented the DVDs after the season had been out and over for a long time. That's how I watch Lost. That's how I watched 24. Or he got them from Netflix, which is a whole other. Or you would order them from Netflix. Exactly. Netflix comes in kind of changes the paradigm of how television is consumed, both in terms of like, you know, you have all these seasons stacked on top of each other that you can either flit around and watch in whatever order you want or binge in one weekend or watch over the court, whatever it is. But it's also always there. So this show is always going to be existing there. And I guess the reason why I wanted to ask you about this was that it's not so much. I think that there's this really interesting invisible ethical line that may have been why this Stranger Things Twitter account from their writer's room so forcefully responded. Because there is almost this idea that you were changing either misdeeds or sins of characters who have since become beloved or has since become, because, you know, Jonathan goes on to date. So I think, but people, what the idea was here was that like, look at this dude being a creep. And it's like, well, and now he's this woman's boyfriend that you go back and tweak it so that their love story has less edges. Now, that's just fundamentally doesn't seem, that's not true. I honestly don't remember. I watched a little bit of the episode today, but it looked exactly the way it looked. And obviously they're saying that that's not the case. And people have retracted their articles. My point is, I understand why it would be like, hey, you can't go back.

and pretend like season two of Friday Night Lights didn't happen. But there is a part of me that's kind of like, but wouldn't it be interesting if you did? Sure. It'd be interesting, but it also, it's interesting you bring up Friday Night Lights because a season that you just kind of want to take a mulligan on doesn't really exist anymore in the streaming era.

That's both because you can't do it. You don't get another chance if you make a mistake like that. But also, that storyline is a product of people who made something beautiful in season one being like, oh boy, we got to stretch. We got to keep fiddling. So it's an interesting argument, but I don't even know how relevant

that aspect of it is anymore. But I also, I just, I don't think this is speaking to the stranger things of it as much as it is just an argument for figuring it out to a degree as you go along. I mean, a lot of this fixing comes from a very natural obsession with control that all creators have,

and you have more and more opportunities to exert that control. And we point to George Lucas as the example of it because he kept fiddling with the original trilogy. And, you know, some advances were technological, and that made sense. But others were character-based, like Han and Grito. But one of the things that makes that original trilogy so good, right, is because, or at least so interesting, is you see it develop in real time. Not just that the first one, in some ways, might be the best one because he didn't have the budget to do some of the stuff he could do in the second and third, let alone the prequels.

So it was the most grounded in character-based, because you know. if he could have done like a full cartoon world, he would have done it right away, as opposed to just like Luke wanting to shoot Wamp Rats. But Darth Vader isn't Luke's father in the first movie. He's not. Like, they hadn't decided that yet. Luke and Lear are not brother and sister in the first movie. No, they are not.

He hadn't figured that out yet. And they also, they make out at some point, right? So, like, that stuff is more organic. And I am a fan. This maybe sounds a little more Henry James than, you know, streets in New York. but like I am a fan of watching this stuff, warts and all develop into where it ends up. You know, it isn't,

TV is an organic process that moves in one direction and it's silly to, to me, I don't like the idea of going back. So let me ask you one more question in this regard, because you brought up the whole Star Wars thing and the Luke is saying that the Han shot first is sort of the original, like, can you tweak something so that the original mythos

of a story is, or like the sort of mythology around a story gets manipulated. I was thinking about like, what would I maybe be interested in seeing this practice applied to? And, you know, a while back, Tofer Grace did that re-edit of the prequels. And I think fan edits of things are somewhat popular on YouTube. And I was kind of like, I sort of want to see somebody take a run at something like Obi-Wan and be like, here's the three-part, three-hour miniseries version of this.

I'm sure someone will. Yeah. I'm sure someone will. I mean, it's funny to even consider that framing, though, because there's a world where whittling a lumpy but well-intentioned three-hour movie into a dynamite 90-minute movie makes sense. And it's not just makes sense. It's like, oh, woulda-coulda, could it? Like, if only that had existed in the world. But Obi-Wan was six hours? Was it six hours? Well, I mean, six episodes. I think some were like almost an hour and some were like 35 minutes when you got through all the credits. But also the Walt Disney Corporation wanted six hours of content for its widget. You know what I mean? Like there's no version of it where it makes

sense from conception as the shorter version once they decided that it was going to be TV and not a movie project. So that kind of affects it as well. It's just funny. It's like the idea of the director's cut necessarily means adding to. And sometimes I wonder if we should have the editor's cut that is taking a little bit. Oh my God. Oh, I mean, yeah, a million percent. I mean, I really do think that people would be just maybe almost on an academic level would be so interested to if they could ever see, for example, the director's cut of a TV show. Because on TV, directors get first pass. They get a couple days in the edit and then they're gone. They're not, unless they're a producer, you know, or some otherwise credited on the show. They do their work. This is what they see. This is

their assemblage. And then they go. And then the showrunner goes in with the editor and maybe some other collaborators and they work on it until they want it. there's often the directors are like, I had nothing to do with that. Movies are very much a different story. It would be super fun to have a side by side of a director's cut of a TV pilot and a writer's cut of a movie, which would be wild. Ironically, it's like, it's funny that the duffers are the ones kind of getting, who were under the microscope at this because they would be the last people I would ever

like surreptitiously accuse of like tweaking. I mean, like, their last. two episodes of Stranger Things, it was a five-hour runtime. So you guys, they're not really going around, like, pruning things. Also, no creator is just like, I had exactly the right amount of time. No one thinks they had enough time ever. That said, it's hard to imagine a show that seemingly has more runway in terms of like, we're going to take an extra year or six months or we're going to shoot in this town for a while. Like they, not the first season maybe, which is at issue here, but they seem to have a lot of resources. By the way, before we change subjects, I just don't know if

your average run-of-the-mill watchheads are aware of your vibrant podcasting life outside of the show. And this week's episode of the big picture. That would be pretty funny if they weren't. If they were just like, so this guy's on the podcast. But maybe they're not checking, like, episode to episode. And I just want to say that, like, this week's big picture is the 1987 movie draft. And it's already a must listen because it's you and Sean and Amanda, but it's also Quentin Tarantino and Roger A3. He's like a little sweetheart. Thank you. It's awesome. But also, like, I can't, I say this every time you do this. It's just there are certain benchmarks where I'm just like, I kind of can't believe.

believe this is real. And so having known you for 25 years that, like, you just podcast with Quentin Tarantino sometimes. That's so weird. That's awesome. Weird. It's so weird that it definitely gets in my head. I was telling Sean this the other day or after we did it. But I was like, because I went third. So Roger went first, then Quentin than me. By the way, he sure did. Yeah. And it's one of the weirdest opening pitches of a podcast I've ever heard by Roger Avery. And I was like, you know, they picked their first two. I think Roger took Robocop and Quentin to Evil Dead too. So I had like quite an open field to choose from. And I was like, I should pick full metal jacket. I should pick full metal jacket. I should pick full metal jacket. I was just like,

I don't know if I can handle Quentin Tarantino calling me a normie. Like if I pick quit, if I pick full metal jacket and for some reason, he was like, that movie sucks. So I just like, I know he's going to like raising Arizona. And I love raising Arizona. I need a comedy. So I went with it. And I was glad I took it where I took it. But there was like true like the, like the, yips right before I said it. It's wild. Even shot on the pot is like, you seem a little twitchy over there. I'm like, because I'm breaking myself.

Yeah. Yeah. Jeez. So that's awesome. So check that out, big picture feed. Thanks, man. So now we have one other piece of business. Oh, yeah.

Well, we were going to do a little Dattington, you know? Oh, yeah. Just so, guys, it's Datington, but it's also Frendington. It's Uncle, too. I was, you know, like to the extent that I was a participant, yeah. I just wanted to hit people to the fact that there is a movie out right now in, I don't, it's an 824 film. It's not in like limited release. I saw the movie theater. It's called Marcel the Shell with Shoes on. It is the film version of what was a, I think, beloved internet viral sensation a few years ago. It was a collaboration between then married couple Jenny Slate, who you know as an actor from Saturday Night Live, comedian, and Dean Fletcher Camp, who directed it and does the animation. And very charming, very sweet little short. I think they made a children. children's book. I wasn't checking. I wasn't like, when's the film dropping? You know, I wasn't

like a super shellhead going in. But it's been very hot in Los Angeles as it has been throughout the country. And I was like, I'd like to take my children to an air-conditioned room for a while. And we went to see this movie. And it is absolutely enchanting. And I think really, really special and moving and surprising. And I want to bring you into this because I told you was good. And then you went with your wife, which was wonderful, that you went to. to see it. Very similar reasons. I needed to put my wife in an air conditioner room for a while. It was really hot. But I got to say, like, I had taken the girls to see the minions film two weeks before. Yeah. And I would say that it was a traumatic act of violence upon me. I hope they're okay.

And I do not mean any disrespect towards the many people who both ironically and unironically love the universal film franchise minions. Like, I'm sure it brings joy to a lot of people. And the minions themselves. and the physical comedy. I get it. I get it. But like we went with friends and those friends bought those same like

giant protective earmuff headphones that you see like the children of rock stars bring the Lollapalooza for their children. The kids of the killers are sitting side of the stage. Yes.

I don't understand just the freneticism and like visual violence of this movie like really what it's for and it sometimes makes you wonder if we, you know, deserve the democracy dying around us. I'm just going to throw that out there.

It just makes me wonder. To contrast that, I watch their faces in this movie that doesn't even begin the way movies begin. You know, it is so enchanting and entrancing and rhythmically different and it's just little talking and it's very sweet. And they were beguiled. They were transported. And I just thought that was really, I don't know, as a parent that meant a lot to me. But the movie also is just killer. I mean, Isabella Rossellini voices Marcel's grandmother and to hammer blow of emotion.

I mean, it really surprised me. I just would say to people who aren't familiar with the viral videos or the YouTube videos that the Dean Fletcher Camp and Jenny Slate made before or don't really know anything about this. And I was kind of like, I'm up for this, but I was also like, just, I'll go see anything right now. It's a really, really inventive movie. It's basically framed as a documentary that Dean Flesher Camp is making after he has had a breakup. And he moves into an Airbnb where Marcel is and decides to do. a doc about this shell that talks and has a life and has like a family and everything. And it becomes

this like whole thing about reuniting Marcel with his family. And I found it to be a pretty like engaging and gripping story like as like they move through it. I mean, there's like there's it's incredibly tweet and incredibly cute and incredibly like sweet and and all those things that I think would be appealing for a kid. But it just even as like, oh, this is like a really really cool way of framing this story because I was like, how are they going to do this? Like, outside of like the cool Jenny Slate voice. Like, I'm not really sure what the story would be. But yeah, I thought

it was really enjoyable. And it's moving on a meta level, too, because they were a couple when they made the shorts. They separated, they divorced, but they still collaborated on this together. And that's kind of baked into the emotional language of the film. And I don't know. I just, like, from my soapbox, which is set up in

the collapsing sands of Daddington Island, I would just say that like it's just Why is it collapsing? What's going on? Is there a, Is there beach erosion? What, I mean, sand is not traditionally the most stable thing to build stuff on. Like, like childhood, if you will. Just to say, hold on, I need to call my real estate guy.

Yeah, one second. One of the things we do on like, on the adult peninsula where we spend most of our life on this podcast is being like, can we please have in entertainment things of different colors and shades and, you know, emotional and volume in all senses? and this idea that what all kids' entertainment should be is noisy and shiny and violent, literally or otherwise, and also just like clever all the time in a very self-referential. Let's let the parents laugh every 10 lines too in case their movie theater doesn't serve beer. Like that whole thing, it's just such a bummer and disservice to kids very creative and discerning minds. And so you throw in a blueie, you throw in a Miyazaki film, you get something like this. And it just rewires them a little bit in a way that is healthy.

And I was pleased for that. You won't be throwing a nope, though. I really wanted to have Nope. Watched. I thought Nope is great today. I'm really excited to see it. It's beyond like whether or not there was like some pacing issues for me in Nope or some stuff like it was so refreshing to be engaged in that like part of my brain again where I was just like not like what does this mean like I'm solving it because there's an Easter egg that explains it. But what does what was he trying to say with this movie?

And man, it's like it's it there's like. like him and Nolan and a couple of other people who still do that on a mass level. If you haven't seen, no people should go check it out. And I really, really encourage you to see it on the biggest screen possible. I'm going to go see it. I feel terrible that I haven't seen it yet.

I wanted to see it before we recorded today. But, you know, I had to get VEP done. You know what I mean? VEP was calling. That's right. Can I just say... You get to test positive for COVEP.

Wow. We should just stop now. But I am going to push forward because I'm, a professional. Just to say, this conversation with Olivier Asayas does have some spoilers for the television show or Mervap. I don't know if that matters. I don't think it's a spoiler-driven thing. I also wanted people to know that because I am a Asaias head, I really wanted to talk about all of his movies. And he is so thoughtful and opinionated and articulate that I think I asked four questions. So that turned into other things. So if people were like, boy, Andy's really going to

like put the screws on him about clean. you know, or about like clouds of Sils Maria or personal shopper or Kristen Stewart in general. Uh, nope. Sorry, this wasn't the conversation for that. It really was about the TV adaptation of Irma VEP. And also at one point, I did ask him what film is, which, you know, that's a 10-minute answer. Yeah.

So I thought he was wonderful. And I really just want to reiterate that the show itself has some like pacing issues potentially, but it doesn't really matter because it is, it's really a joyful thing. And there's some very profound stuff that I did. comes up in the interview, but I found really profound just about like the hard part in art is showing the light, not the darkness. And that's a message that I want the people who make minions to understand too. So there we go. We're getting into Andy's interview.

Thanks to Kai McMullen for producing us and we'll be back on Monday evening with our response to the latest episode of Better Call Saul. And we'll have some industry stuff and reservation dog stuff next week. Thanks for listening. Thank you, my Amoski. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

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and also 1996's Irma VEP, which has now been remade by my guest as an eight-part HBO miniseries, which just concluded. I'm so thrilled to be joined by Olivier Asayas. Welcome to the watch. Thank you for joining me. It's a real honor. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure.

Where are you speaking to me from today? I am on a well-deserved holiday. Agreed, well-deserved. In Tuscany. Oh, how lovely. And yet here you are still having to do the promotion, so I appreciate taking the time. You know, it's the last episode was just approved yesterday by EGio. Oh, my goodness.

So I have to kind of supervise from afar some stuff. So, yeah. That's interesting because one of the stories, storylines of Irma VEP is that it is very difficult for directors to manage things from afar. So I appreciate you the struggle with that must contain. At this point, it's very technical. I mean, I stayed in Paris and made sure everything was finished and done. But behind that, you have a lot of technical work.

Getting into the adaptation, the remake, I'm not sure what you prefer to call it. I did revisit the film, which I love very much. And I was really struck by how the 1996 film of IrmaVep really begins with the question. I think a character actually voices the question. Why do we keep repeating ourselves? Why do we keep telling the same stories? And this is before you had the personal opportunity to do that yourself. And I found over the course of the eight episodes what was so brilliant and striking about the series is that, and I don't mean to presume, I'd love to hear your version of it.

But for me, it felt like you would come up with an answer. that we continue to chase rabbits down the same holes in search of something more profound in search of a deeper meaning in search of happiness or a connection. It's, yes, that's more or less the way I would phrase it because it's, but it's very intimate also. You know, it's when, to go back in time,

when I wrote the MFF app in nine days at the time, it was because I had time on my hand because I had another bigger project that had been pushed back. So I thought, why not make a small indie, tiny indie film? And I said that and I wrote it, and I wrote it really fast and I had fun. And it was like the first time I was writing something that had some kind of comedy tone to do it.

The other movies were more serious. And there was something very pleasurable about it. I had no idea what it was. It was very different from anything that would come out of French cinema at that period. You know, I thought who is going to take me seriously? Who will be interested by this? And, you know, and then I was right to ask myself the question because the answer was nobody. I mean, nobody wanted this film.

I mean, we ended up shooting it in four weeks. The crew was only paid three weeks. And the fourth week was depending on if we would see if we would be selling the film or not. I reassure you, they were paid. But still, you know, it was super minimal. I was having fun. I had no idea what I was doing.

I had no idea that, A, this movie will all of a sudden make myself recognized, you know, or, you know, people that a lot of the international press became aware of my work through that, through that film that I would end up marrying the lead, whom I had briefly met before, but very briefly. and all of that I would just touch something that was so close to the bone in terms of my relationship to cinema

to what has always attracted me to cinema which is part very serious and deep and committed and at the same time to me there would be movie making is also about having fun and enjoying yourself and that's what I dislike the most about the industry because a lot of the movies

that are made with the industry are just like that serious and made with people who are scared for their jobs who are scared for this, who are scared of that. And I think movies is for bad boys.

The movies is for kids and movies are about having fun. If you don't have fun making making movies, you know, it's a it's do something else. You know, it's like it's you, you, you, you, yeah, I mean, as much as I'm, I'm very concentrated,

focus, kind of hardworking in many ways when I'm making my movies, I just like the idea that people around me on the set are enjoying what they are doing, that they are proud of what they are doing, and that they can. contribute and their contribution is recognized. And I always do recognize the contribution of the people, the people I work with, because cinema is a collective art. So it's, it's, you know, to me, to me, the originally of my web touched on something that was much deeper than what I initially thought. And it stayed with me and it became for me very much part of the process of cinema. Your answer, which I love so much, reminds me of a line that I want to adopt as a mantra from the finale, which is that it is much more difficult to turn towards the light than to darkness.

And I feel like that's something that many people forget when they make prestige television or heavy movies. Exactly. I mean, that's ultimately, it's where it all leads to. It's where it all leads to. So when it became time to revisit something that had such a surprising and profound effect on your life and your art, was it inevitable that this revisitation would involve so much of yourself, so much of your own personal stories? Yes, it was. It was. I'm not sure how aware I was of it when I started working on it. Because I like the idea. When I started working on it, I liked the idea of customizing my own movies and trying to turn them into something else. But ultimately, in very early, nonetheless, in the process, I understood that when I am, I mean, what I have been telling is in the original film. and both in the new one,

is that there is, that movie characters are a little bit more than what we think they are, they are presences who try, and specifically someone like Emma Vap with this kind of archetype or cat burglar with the cat suit,

you find her in so many movies, you know, she kind of, she's kind of the character who connects the early cinema, silent films, and superhero movies. And why does she embody at that point something that is beyond time, that is outside of time,

and kind of continues to fascinate us. It's ultimately a very interesting story. it's a very exciting and cinematographic question. But what I did not realize is that I had myself become part of it because I was the one who revived the M-A-VEP at some specific moment. And the M-A-Vep became part of my life. So when I start looking back on the character of even if I go as far as Musidora, who was the original actress, I am part of the narrative.

I am the guy who revived the Vampire in 96 and got married with the actress and got divorced from the actress. And, you know, it's so all of a sudden, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and, and, and, and, and, and, I did not imagine that ultimately, the movie will include, uh, the dialogue that never happened between my ex-wife and myself. I had no idea that it's instead of me questioning the film, the film would start questioning me, you know? I mean, like you are telling the story of EMAVEP. Well, sorry, Guy, you have to put some of yourself into it and much more than what you believe. Well, there's an undercurrent to the film of submission and domination and people have fun with it and people are watching the daily saying, oh, this is hot, you know, and that's all part of it.

But I thought of it in response to your answer only because it sounds like you had to submit as well to a degree, to the project, to the process in a way that may, I don't know if that was uncomfortable for you or it just felt natural because it's part of the artistic process you believe in. You know, it's, there is a couple of the scenes that with René Vidal and his and his therapists. that kind of an answer to that question, sort of an answer to that question. It's, no, I think, you know, it's, what, what, your question is relevant, but I have to answer it in a slightly,

in a slightly off way. Please. Because it's, sometimes, something comes, up as a job, you know, would you do this, would you do that? We have this screenplay. Why don't you? Or we would like to do something. And you feel that, oh, if I do that, I will feel like a director for hire or whatever. I will not feel comfortable. I need to be, I need to be in

control. I need to own whatever I'm, what I'm doing. And so I was a little I was never reluctant because I always felt that I was working with the best possible people, meaning the guys from A-24, HBO, Francesca O.C. You know, those guys are the best. I mean, you know, but still, you know, it's another system. It's another culture. I had never really made an American film with an American production and blah, blah, blah. So I was a little nervous about, slightly nervous about it. But when I got to the process of writing and when I got into the process of shooting, making the film, I felt that I had no reason to be scared.

I had no reason to be intimidated. I had no reason to have doubts because ultimately what they were giving me is something I never really had, which was like eight hours of complete freedom to tell a crazy story. You know, I would never had a similar budget and that much time to tell this movie. So in the context of the film industry. So ultimately, it was TV, yes, it functions slagest, slightly differently from what I'm used to, yes. But at the same time, what is giving me, it's giving me is like way beyond what I had in my previous film.

I mean, you know, it's, again, I mean, we were discussing about how intimate this was. And all of a sudden, I have eight hours where I can, and I can go wherever my imagination, imagination takes me. And I have people there who kind of, you know, sometimes they tell me, are you sure you're not going in the wrong way? Or are you sure? But always, you know, I mean, they kind of, you know, helped me once in a while focus and once in a while,

a precise this, all that, or just, you know, just give me common sense observations on the narrative. I mean, you know, stuff that you. do in movies and that happened in movies, but the process, because the process is much longer in movies, you don't need to have that kind of conversation here. The process was like super fast. That was the really the one tough part. I mean, you know, I had to work, it was, I had to work really hard, really fast for a very long time. So, you know, that's why I'm saying that I'm happy, I'm a holiday now. Because it was like two years.

of really, really badly duff work. I want to ask you about the two fantastic leads that you have in the series. Since you're speaking about your own role in the narrative, I should ask about Vincent McKin, who is a wonderful actor and director in his own right and starred in a recent film of yours that I adored nonfiction. He is playing Renee Vidal. He has many of the scenes that you're referring to

as somewhat similar to your own experience, whether it's speaking to the ghost, the presence of his ex, whether it's speaking to the therapist. what was your relationship like with your double, if you will? Do you have occasional homicidal tendencies on set? Did you watch him studying you at times to pay tribute to your own mannerisms? No, no, I'm a nice person. I mean, I'm a nice person.

I'm, you know, I have a very well-behaved. and I like people to be happy on my set so I don't have tantrums or whatever you know, it's, I like people to enjoy what they do. But yes, I am having, but I'm having fun with the character of René Vida because part of him is me, of course.

I mean, I'm like the nice version, but still, you know, evil me and René Vidal is the evil me and and and also I think it's a collaboration with Vincent

McCain I think that Vincent has brought so much to the part I mean he's just such a he's a great director I mean he's I mean he's stage work is spectacular and and it's a pity now he's kind of

chosen I mean he's He's not writing and directing much because he's doing so well as an actor. But I think it's a part that had to be played by someone who has an experience of creation and who has an experience eventually of the complexities. I'm not talking about depression or whatever, but at least the pains, the pains of creations, the doubts, the insecurities. And Vinson is not only a great actor, but I think he understands deeply what this character is and what is exactly going on, because he went through similar things himself.

So in many ways, Rone Vidalz is halfway between us. I would say. But I think that because he understood what I was saying and how I was saying it, he encouraged me to go further. There's a lot of things that he tried. I mean, he tried stuff that was like that when I was watching, it said, oh, come on, Van Somm, this is really like over the top. I mean, like I would say to Lars Sidinger or so once in a while.

I mean, Lars, are you sure what you're doing right now? But ultimately they were right. They were right. I mean, once in a while, especially when you have this kind of really long narrative, once in a while it has to blow up and it has to blow up in a crazy way. And instinctively felt it. And I instinctively felt that they were right. So we kept a lot of the crazy moments.

You mentioned Lars Edinger as Gottfried as one of my favorite performances in recent memory. He plays the, he's the charming crack addict. His performance is, as you said, it's so out there. It's so beautiful. But he also becomes this really incredible avatar for something that I now know from our brief conversation is so important to you, which is the magic of the temporary community of a film set. You know, which having made a TV show myself like that is the joy. You know, here it's called, you know, it's summer camp. You're with people and you're making something for this burning bright flame amount of time.

Absolutely. Yeah. And he's such a wonderful avatar for that because you would never want to spend a life with Godfrey, let alone two months. But for this period, it's a different energy. He brings something that's vital and that no one else would bring. And especially he brings something that I was very much influenced by, which is 1970s German firm. for Fasbinder. I mean, he brings Fasbinder.

I mean, you know, one, one, I got it out, I cut it out, but there was a whole monologue on Fassbinder that we shot. That was very important to me, but at some point it just became too abstract, and, you know, and there was no space for that. But ultimately, he got frayed is an homage to Fass Binder in many ways. He's wonderful. And, of course, the lead of the piece is Alicia Vikendry, as Mira. And I wanted to ask you about my journey with the character, which is to say that knowing

how much this series was about the movie and about the world of filmmaking as it exists, more or less for all of us at the moment, my first thought was, is she playing Kristen Stewart, your frequent collaborator? Is this an homage to Kristen? Did Kristen drop out of the project? And then in the finale, Kristen shows up, which is the perfect ribbon on it. But I guess somewhere in there is a question about why Mira, why Hollywood, and why this version of an actor in 2022 playing IrmaVEP? Well, well, first, first, because I don't think, I mean, when I made EMAVEP, I thought that the vitality, the energy of filmmaking was in, was in Hong Kong. You know, I, I, when I, when I, when I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I mean, I was friends with, with Juan Carwai, with Christopher Doyle, and with all those guys. And, and, you know, I mean, they would do those

kind of punk rock things of shoot, you know, I mean, Chris would be shooting handheld and would turn the, the, the, the, the, the, the switch of the camera on and off, you know, I mean, They would really just doing crazy things that no one in cinema was doing at the time. And so I thought, I liked the idea of connecting the story of independent French filmmaking with Hong Kong, with Hong Kong cinema. I like the idea to have Maggie Chung and Jean-Pierle-O in the same scene. I don't think I could make it again with Chinese cinema, because the cinema is in a completely different place now.

And I genuinely, I mean, it's because of the censorship, it's because of many reasons. The cinema is not bringing to world cinema the kind of energy it used to bring. And or whatever it brings is known and relevant and recognized. doesn't need me to explore. And again, I mean, you know, I, I, I, I, the, to me, making Mavep again had made sense in the same way as, you work twice on the same play, you know, you, you, you have a play and you, and you have a very good version with the perfect cast.

And 10 years later, 15 years later, 20 years later, you do the same play, but you will want to do it with a completely different cast. You will want it to do it with completely different actors and have a completely different perspective. So to me, making this new version of EMAVB, the important thing was to be sure that I had the right EMAVAP. And so that's why Alicia has been involved since day one, I mean, since before they won. I mean, you know, we met, we liked each other very much. There was no specific idea of making anything together. But when I started thinking about EMAVEP,

say, oh, well, if I'm making EMAVEP, I think the right person would be Alicia, because she has this kind of candor. She has this kind of innocence, and then she's so tough, she's so powerful, she has such a broad range, which is something people are not aware, of usually. I mean, you know, it's because she she hasn't had a chance to show so many sides

of her personality before her mother. So here we, in India, so I, so I thought it was exciting because she, because I knew she could be funny, she could be profound, she could be crazy. And she has this kind of extraordinary way of moving, which has to do with her history as a ballet name. I mean, she was a dancer before she was an actress. And it shows. It's something that's possibly present. I mean, you know, when you're shooting the scene, it's just so important to have actors who know what to do with their body, how to position their body.

And I knew, it's something, you know, usually I had no idea. I mean, I kind of figure out how I'm going to shoot scenes in the morning before I come to the set. But I kind of describe, I take, I mean, I take an hour every morning to do that, so it's kind of precise and so on and so forth. But the one thing I don't know is how the actors will move, how they was how when they will, especially in a series, because obviously there's a lot of dialogue,

so it means that you are going to shoot a lot of people sitting up, sitting down, standing up, moving from point A to point B and this and that. And so you need someone, especially when you're doing something that's very talkative, that the verbos or whatever, you need someone who has, who can give, who can give flesh to those ideas, who can understand the right movement coming with the right idea,

the right spot. And she has all of that. And it's very rare. She's wonderful and grows and changes over the course of the hours, which I appreciated in her performance. So I have a perhaps unwieldy or large question, but it comes from this idea of the role of the Hollywood star within the show. And one thing that I admired it so much about the series,

and indeed all your work, is that it is never mean-spirited, so that when Herman, who does the Blockbuster films, comes, he's respectful. He has his own style, but he doesn't disrupt. He is a part of the creative community. And Mira works in these movies that maybe leave her feeling a certain way, but she still has this desire to be creative, and it moves her. Because you are one of my favorite filmmakers, but also a student and scholar of filmmaking, I wanted to get your perspective on, this is a tough question, this is a big question.

What are movies right now? And the reason I ask that is not because Irmovep has been revisited as an eight episode. It will be called a TV series. And Renee Vidal has the joke about, you know, no, no, it's a movie. There's just little breaks. But, and I fold this into the question not to get you. a gotcha quote, but I am curious because the same day that I finished Irmavep, I went to see the new Thor movie. And no one was castrated like they are in your fictional Thor movie, unfortunately.

But regardless of whether I thought it was good, I don't know what it was because the assignment was so complicated that Taika has to tell stories in five directions at once. He has to tell the past story that we haven't seen and set up a future movie and bring something in and it's a different, it feels like it doesn't feel like what I thought a movie was, what a movie is now. No, it's no, because, you know, it's just now, it's both complex and simple. The industry has taken over. It genuinely has. I mean, it's a fact of life. So what does the industry want? The industry wants, once, uh, move. that can generate profit with the minimum risks.

And what is the minimum, what minimise the risks is creating brands. So, so you, so you, yes, you do spend money on making a film. And money is not an issue you have, it's unlimited. You can use as much as you can, as you want, as long as there is potential for a sequel, a spin-off, a reboot, whatever you call it. And it will go on for years.

And so to have, and all of a sudden, that's the kind of Marvel universe thing. The star is the superhero. It's not the actor. The actor can be changed. You know, it's disposable. The actor or the actress are disposable. You know, all of a sudden, it's a reboot.

It's, you know, it's a, it's a, so, so out. the old actor, in the new actor. And it's, so there is, that's kind of industrial filmmaking, you know, there's, there's, there's an industrial logic to do it. And, and why spend a lot of money, lots of money, lots of money, eventually on something that doesn't have that potential? because in case it bombs, you lose everything,

but that's part of the deal. But if it's successful, it doesn't have a potential to do a sequel. So you, you, you, so you, you won't be making the kind of money you would be making.

If you, you wouldn't, you won't be able to benefit from the success of your own film. Right. At least not enough. But not on the range. So now what's happening is that you have less and less movies and more and more and more franchises. And the studios want and the studios and everybody, they want franchises.

So it's a different, so it's a very different world. And on the other side, you have indie filmmaking, which is, which is a very different world. indie filmmaking, which is very dependent on the theaters, which is in trouble because the platforms are not that interested in them unless they are very prestige or this and that. But we're not talking about. We're talking about the average indie movie by a young filmmaker who eventually will make his first film or his second film. and those movies have been the most affected by the loss of viewers during the pandemic

and we're still in the pandemic. Technically, you know, I mean, whatever perspective you use on it, it's the fact that we are in a period of pandemic right now as we're talking. So I don't think that's over yet. I don't think that the movie, that the audience of those movies has completely come back. So they are in a tough position to get finance. But because before, before, I'm talking 10 years ago, I'm talking whatever, I'm talking history of cinema. I'm talking history.

You were an indie director. You made a movie. You could all of a sudden you could expand your vision in a more ambit, in a studio movie that, you know, you would have to deal with a lot of bullshit and with a lot of bad people, but also with very good people. And you, you, but in the end, you would be making a movie. You would, you would not have to deal with, use a little bit of this, a little bit of that because there was this, there's this sequel, that sequel and so on and so forth.

So it's another job. So, you know, again, I mean, I'm not even beginning to answer your question, but it's it's it because it's extremely complex. I mean, we at this point, we don't know if we, what exactly is a movie, where it's supposed to be shown, how it's supposed to be shown. I mean, I've been making this series and I get figures. It's like 1.3 million people have been watching like the first episode, okay? You know, it's a, but I have no idea. I mean, between my friends, I have no idea who has seen it, who has not seen it, who actually has an HBO Max subscription or not,

or if they've seen it on some French platform who's also showing it, or if you now I'm in Italy. I have no idea where it's showing it. You know, it's, it's, we, we,

we, we are in a completely different world. We were in, in a new world and I have no, and I mean, you know, it's, I could go on and on about this.

You know, I mean, you know, just take the Irishman. I saw the, I saw the Irishman, amazing film. I watched it on my TV.

Yeah. Because I had no idea where I could see it anywhere out, and any other way. And I think that, when Scorsese, who was obviously a genius and a very smart man, he knows that, well, in the future, when there will be a retrospective of his films, one of his masterpieces will be the Irishman and it will be shown. But all of a sudden, those movies become changed status.

I mean, they have a weird status. They are like in a strange limbo. And I think that, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I'm saying that, I mean, there's a context where one thing that's not being taken into consideration is that people do have better and better, it says home movie systems. Sure. So, so, so, so I think one factor is also that people are watching, I mean, there's a lot of people who are watching movies in, in pretty decent conditions. I mean, and we're not, I mean, and a projector is not that expensive. You project on your white wall and you have two, you know, amplifiers and you have and the film is on your phone. You know, it's, it's, it's so, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I, I, I, I, I mean, I personally do have a home video. I'm happy and I'm often very happy to be watching.

And I think I watch them, you know, the way they should be watched. They could be watched. I prefer to be in a theater. But the difference is narrowing. I think that one of the reasons I ask you that question is because when people ask me what my favorite genre film is, I often say, if I'm being honest, it's French people on vacation talking. And summer hours is one of my favorite films of all time for that reason. And, you know, and I feel, I don't feel pessimistic because I still get to see wonderful things on whether it's called TV or whether it's movies.

But I do feel that specifically, though, something like summer hours has a greater power to me because it is contained. You know, and I say this as someone who works primarily in TV. But the idea that the talking thing is going to be all migrate to television, I think, is wrong. And I hope for the future of this style. of movie that you make nonfiction as well. No, no, wrong, wrong, wrong. I totally agree with you. I mean, you know, it's, I mean, to me, the model, I mean, is Eric Romer.

Eric Romer has, he, I mean, even late, his late movies, he was producing the films himself. He was shooting with no money because you don't need much money to do those movies. sometimes when he needed more money, he would go to paté or whoever, who somehow would support him because they knew that the movies would sell globally. You know, it's, to me, you know, the issue is freedom.

What is, when you are free, it's fine. When you are not free, it's content. And I don't want to do content. I want to be free. I kind of, you know, it's otherwise I would have already been making Hollywood movies. And that's not going to happen anytime soon. So coming off of this two-year experience, do you feel, I guess this is as good a place to end as any,

although I have many more questions. I hope we could speak again in the future. I guess that my final question is just a sort of a temperature check on you and you're muses. You've had two years of intense work. You're on vacation, but I'm wondering, do you feel as excited about what surprises may come as you have been in the past?

Does the industry change have a discouraging effect on you? Or do you feel like, are you a boat in the current? To me, the thing is, to me, at this point is a little bit of a question mark, because I have a screenplay,

which is pretty much what you're saying, you know, which you're describing, these people on holiday talking during the pandemic, during the, during the pandemic. So, so I don't know. I mean, I was kind of, I wrote it during the, during the confinement, during the first confinement. And I don't know. I mean, I'm just, I'm giving myself a few weeks perspective to decide if that's what I want to do, because I'm just a little scared that. There's a little bit too much of too much pandemic material around, you know. Okay. But, but ultimately, it's pretty, it's pretty much, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, meaning shot in in, in my actual place. I mean, I would like to buy real estate in the place between those two movies.

So I think that sounds ideal. Olivier, thank you so much for your time. It's an honor to speak with you. I think the series is so rewarding, you know, because it is, it really builds in layers and delivers so much of what we've talked about in this conversation, but in ways that are continually surprising. And I just was very moved by the end, you know, the idea that that you get to live in a dream and it dissipates and it haunts you.

And it's feeling of ghosts as a ghost story with a positive end, you know, that it's good to be haunted in a way. I found very, I just found that very profound and very moving, especially in the midst of whatever world we're living in. So thank you for that. Well, it was a pleasure talking to you. And I hope we get to meet in real verse. Yes, please.

When this movie is made, I hope we get to do it again. So thank you. Please enjoy your vacation and get back to it. Thank you so much. The pleasure. Thank you.