The Watch - The ‘Squid Game’ Phenomenon, ‘Foundation,’ and a Conversation With ‘Reservation Dogs’ Creator Sterlin Harjo

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about the word-of-mouth phenomenon ‘Squid Game’ and how it shows that Netflix still has the power to launch shows (4:00). Then they talk about the heavy-sci-fi world being created in ‘Foundation’ (20:48) and the trailers for ‘Sandman’ and ‘Licorice Pizza’ (33:06) before speaking with ‘Reservation Dogs’ creator Sterlin Harjo (46:11). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sterlin Harjo Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew,

the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, he really should have read that release for Squid Game more carefully. It's Andy Greenwald. Do you think I would do well on that show, Chris? we're going to get way into that show and talk about how well you would or would not do on it, Eddie. Today we're talking about Squid Game. We're also talking about foundation.

We'll talk a little bit, licorice pizza and Sandman trailers. And then at the second half of the show, we will be joined by the Reservation Dogs creator Sterling Harjo to talk about his wonderful TV show on FX and how much we've loved it. I mean, I guess we'll probably talk about that. That's not like a great question to be like, hey, we loved your show. Any thoughts on that?

No, we're going to do the Chris Farley interview with him. We're just going to be like, remember that time you made a comedy for FX? That was awesome. Remember that repo man reference? That was amazing. I think our listeners can tell. This is not often the case. Because usually we bank interviews and then we build the show around them. But today we're just sitting anticipating Sterling's arrival. So we don't know. We have a bunch of stuff to talk about. Today, I'm feeling a little punchy.

And he switched fabric softners. What? At your age? Chris. Well, we have like, I don't know. my wife got like these like artisanal fabric softners. And we had like this one called beach laundry for a while. That was really nice. Right. And now I'm wearing my sweatshirt I washed with like basically cut grass.

And let me tell you, it does what it says on the bottle. Like I feel like I have got a mouth full of grass right now. Wait, wait. The, oh, I thought you had spent the weekend playing flag football rolling in grass. No, nor am I listening to all of Sturgle Simpson's bluegrass records called cut and grass. It's just what it smells and almost like tastes like. I am speechless. People who listen to this podcast, no, I can generally just, you can press a button and I can talk about subjects.

I have not engaged with. I'm 10 years into my stay in Los Angeles and there's been some ups and downs, but I still do laundry with an absolute vengeance only known to people who live in New York and didn't have washer dryer. Oh, it feels so good. I agree with that. So I will just be like, this sock could be cleaner. going to throw it in there. Hold on, I actually have Gavin Newsom on the other line. This is a drought trap.

You've been, you've been punked, and we've all gone thirsty because of your actions. I just, you know what? I'm going to say something controversial. I'm not a believer in fabric softener. I don't use a fabric. I wasn't either until, until recently. Yeah, I mean, it's really more of a perfuming action than it is, like, a softening thing. Are you a perfuming guy?

again, this is a audio medium. Do you don't apply colognes and tinctures and oils to yourself, right? On special occasions, I'll wear a cologne. Do you? Yeah, like a tobacco, like kind of like muskier thing. Yeah, you didn't know this? No. I guess you never really get that close to my neck.

Certainly not in the last year and a half. That said, back in our prime time. When you used to give me the big Frito Michael kiss. Yes, and back then you did have a heady aroma of tobacco, but that was natural. That was straight camels, yeah. God, wow. This is a what, free ads. What a podcast already.

I just wanted to loosen it up. Because we got some heavy stuff to talk about, man. We do. We're talking about the fate of civilizations on this show today. We're talking about economic inequality in Korea. You know, like, it's heavy stuff. It's psycho history. Where do you want to start?

You want to start with the trailers and build up to bigger shows? No. I think we should start with the great game. because I actually think, and I don't know if I'm going to pull this off, but I'm going to try to do it. I actually feel like the squid game conversation and the foundation conversation are one and the same.

I'm not saying we need to only talk about them in a relationship to each other, but I found them to be fascinating as to consider collectively. Can I tell you something? Yeah. 100% agree. Yes. This is exactly what I was thinking.

Yes, because what we're talking about here are the two pathways to mass market monocultural success, right? Now, obviously, neither show has achieved monocultural success, but both one has a suddenly has a faster ticket to that promised land than the other and not the one that I think a lot of people expect it. And I think it's kind of an interesting snapshot of where we are with Prestige TV at the moment what happened to this weekend. And just to set the table before we get into the individual shows, let's just say this.

Foundation is a 50 or 60-year-old science fiction series written by the great Isaac Asimov. It has been through, you know, it's beloved by generations. It's influenced untold science fiction stories and science, like actual scientists, minds and brains have been expanded by it. Never adapted, considered unadaptable for many years. Apple went all in with Batman writer David Goyer through unspeakable amounts of money at this project, shepherded it over numerous years, huge marketing budget. We've talked about it multiple times over the course of its development. Finally arrives on Friday with one episode with, you know, expecting, expecting a lot of glory

and a lot of attention for it because it was designed to get those things. And interestingly enough, the reviews really didn't come out until basically the episode was available on Apple, which I think was intentional. I think that it was embargoed, which is not necessarily the kind of, and I don't know that for a fact. It just seems very much like that because generally big ticket shows or reviewed earlier. I think you and I were chatting on Friday and being like, have you seen any foundation reviews yet? Yeah. So that's usually not a good sign when that happens with movies. You know, I'd love to know that what actually went on behind the scenes in terms of making it accessible to critics for TV review. But it was accessible. I just think you weren't allowed to review. Right. Right. It was available. So the screeners were out there, but you couldn't publish. Hit publish on your review until Friday.

Squid Game is something I learned about, I think, Friday evening or Saturday. morning. I can't, I don't know which came first. Did I turn on the Netflix box in the vain hopes of finding something to watch during, you know, Friday night's regular fruitless search for new content? Or did I find out about it when probably yours as well? Our Menchies started filling up with people saying we had to check this out. Who can tell? But the speed with which a Korean language thriller that neither of us had ever heard of took over. social media and I'm sure by extension, just people's cues,

people's viewing habits over the weekend. It's outrageous. It's not unprecedented, but it is an incredible demonstration of just where we are with TV and the power of Netflix to push something right in front of people's eyes and then what can happen if it catches fire there.

I think, well, I'll talk about Squid Game because I like it more. Me too, let's start with that. Let's just get into that. As far as it's, sort of reception or its promotion. I haven't seen something like this in this way since maybe Black Mirror, although there have been other examples over the course of the last few years

where all of a sudden not only are lots of people hitting us specifically up, I think a lots of people, but like my buddy and old co-worker Donnie Kwok was like, you guys have to talk about this on Monday. I remember when Black Mirror was on in England when it first started coming out, and I would see a lot of the English football people that I follow on Twitter talking about it on Sundays or whatever. And I was just like, why is everybody just like talking into my weekly Black Mirror Hellfest or whatever? And I'm just like very intrigued. And that was, you know, you used to have to really go and find illegal streams back then because there wasn't this transatlantic, you know, streaming share going on.

It's happened a couple of other times. It's kind of happening a little bit right now with a show that's on BBC called Vigil, which is coming on Peacock. you know, but with Squid Game, this kind of reminds me more of like Fight Club in The Matrix where I don't even know how to talk about this show without taking away anything from the sound of your jaw hitting the floor will be audible multiple times per episode.

And we can get into some of what it's about. I don't want to give away too much because I think that part of the thrill is starting it and just being like, this show's about fucking what now? But the, the, the, the, the, the, the, word of mouth power of what's going on here. And I do think you're right.

I think front page Netflix, number one show on the planet, I think right now, at least according to Netflix, is a huge significant thing. I obviously, a lot of Korean pop culture has like an incredible social media imprint.

So I think that there is stuff going on there. Like Donnie was telling me about the actress who plays the pickpocket has like a million more Instagram followers now than she did like a week ago. Like it can really be a ground swell. we can get in any of those things. But yeah, I am, this is a real like, wow, it still works. Yeah.

When a cultural thing catches fire, it can just be like for a week, it'll just be like, guys. Guys? Yeah, and even just watching it and being like, oh, all of these things are going to be references and memes and, you know, we're going to be talking about this for a while collectively. And that's kind of exciting to be a part of. I think it's worth noting, you know, as recently as a week ago, post-emmies, you and I were talking about our perception of Netflix

and Netflix's role in specifically in the American or North American TV ecosystem and how chasing awards wasn't necessarily their bag anymore and how talent relations in Hollywood was something that they really, really focused on as they were switching from red envelopes to something that's just baked into all of your devices. But they've turned away from that, etc, et cetera, et cetera. That may be true. It may portions of that may be true. But what they are actually focused on is this. This is what all of the global expansion was for. This is what the head start that they got on every other streaming service was for. And when it works, when it lines up, when their creative partners in Korea have an idea like this and can execute it like this,

no pun intended, and then just push the button and put it in front of every one of its 200, 300, 400, I don't know how many hundreds and millions of subscribers Netflix has at this moment worldwide. That's what they're doing. You know, they, I know that it's redundant maybe to make tech bro jokes, but they literally are Justin Timberlake in the social network being like, do you know what's cool? What's cool? Yeah, a billion watchers. No, we were talking offline off this pot a little bit, we were just chatting back and forth about some of the network shows that are coming on. Like Ordinary Joe and Wonder Years and Libre has been on for a few weeks. And I think we were sort of needling Netflix, not that they gave a shit, a couple of weeks ago about, oh, is Netflix

kind of like the new CBS, the new middle brow, the new kind of, you know, we're going to make lots of lowest common denominator entertainment because we're going to count on the idea that for a lot of people, Netflix is going to be like the Kleenex tissue thing, where it's like people refer to it as a Kleenex, but that's a brand, you know, they'll refer to TV as Netflix, you know, and that they got to have enough content out there so that it feels like there's there's something there for all of its hundreds of millions of subscribers. It's 209 million as of Q2 2021. I got a little excited when I started going well past that. You know where their eyes are. Their eyes are when these other streaming services collapse, we will be there, you know, and there will be one

king to rule them all. So, you know, I kind of look at Squid Game. as a refreshing return to like 24 or lost where something comes on and the most amount of people possible are watching it. And it obviously sweeps kind of the pop culture up into its bosom. Now, I don't know how many people who were listening to watch had a chance to listen to watch any of Squid Game this weekend

or if we certainly didn't prep people by being like on Thursday check this out over the weekend. So maybe we're like, our heads are in the clouds, but you look at the Google results for Squid Game, it's like affecting the Korean stock market. You know what I mean? Like it's, it is a huge hit. Yeah.

And so I think that you were right in saying, this is a phenomenon. We'll return to it. I think that we should try to be a little bit protective of what comes in the show. And I haven't watched very much of it. So you probably know more than I do. But just to say. I watched the first two. So yeah.

So the show is about, at least in the beginning, about a very, very, very down on his luck, 47-year-old dude in Seoul named Gihun Song, who is living with his mother and is an inveterate gambler and has a difficult – he's made a difficult relationship with his 10-year-old daughter, and is just trying to stay afloat, and he's – it's a great performance, I think, by Jung-J Lee. Oh, my God. It's like – it's like silent film comedy style acting. Yeah, he's so physical. And, you know, you see it. And it's the kind of performance where you see the smart storytelling choices that they've made where he's not all bad and he's not all good, but it doesn't feel heavy-handed. It's just creating a world and a person. And we establish after the relationship with his

daughter is established and after his relationship to money and risk and physical pain is established, he agrees without knowing exactly what he's agreeing to to be a part of a potentially lucrative game. Game show, we don't really know. And then the show gasses us and gases him and becomes something entirely different. This is not a show you should watch

with your 10-year-old daughter, metaphorically speaking, or otherwise. This is definitely, it goes places that I think people have heard me talk for a while know that aren't always my favorite in terms of the way it uses like extremity. But the show is a puzzle box and an adventure and the experience, even watching it alone as I did,

although maybe with the back of my mind knowing that 200 million other people were watching it too, it's really riveting and really thrilling. And it's just, it's kind of exciting. It's fun. I think, you know, it's also not about something. It's about something. I mean, it's definitely about what inequality and economic disparity and economic despair will do, especially to a mass group of people when put in a situation where they have to try to claw their way out of an, you know, basically an unrecoverable situation in terms of their debt that they are under in their society and also just like the black of prospects that they have. there's a lot of like other references

that I think we could discuss. I do want to give people a little bit of breathing space to watch like a couple of episodes that maybe we can return to this on on Thursday's show or maybe next Monday show before succession comes back. But, you know, I think a lot of people probably are burning through it right now.

It definitely has, I would say that this first episode is one of the more stunning first episodes of a show that I've seen in a very long time, a very long time in terms of like where it ends up versus where it begins. When I first started watching the show, I was like, this is, this is pretty cool. I wonder what's going on here.

And then pretty much midway through, you're like, oh, we're going on a real, real trip here. It's fun, too, because, you know, I think a lot of the, if you're reading anything about the show or even hearing us kind of dance around it, you know, you are getting the impression of what it feels like or what it might be or what it might surprise you with. I think it's worth saying, so far, nothing in, no one element of Squid Game is revolutionary or particularly. particularly radical. It pulls from threads that we are all culturally familiar with, you know, whether they are episodes of Black Mirror, whether they are, you know, honestly, the setup is pretty standard broadcast television pilot, or whether they are, you know, you and your buddies in middle school or high school musing about how the most dangerous game of all is, is man. You know, these are all things that we know and we've seen.

I don't know how they did it out at Friend Central. That's not how we did out in Friend Select. Well, you didn't warn people. My school is much more genteel is like fox, you know, it's like fox hunting. Yeah. But for people. But in Friend Select, you had the playground up on the roof, you know, so you could just sort of like spot your prey around the city.

No, I just mean I, it's really a pleasure when all of the elements are sourced from elsewhere, but are brought together. in an electric hole that feels very, very relevant to right now. And also, the other thing about it, and I don't know where the season goes and I don't know what will inevitably happen in future seasons because obviously you have a phenomenon like this after three days, there's going to be more in some form.

I really do appreciate that it's not Black Mirror's 60-minute musings. And I don't mean to use this opportunity to up one thing at the expense of Black Mirror. or something, which I think is brilliant. I think that there's been a lot of like, what if screens are bad for us stuff. Yes. And so this episode could be a Black Mirror episode,

but I'm very happy that it's not. I'm very happy that they are committed, at least in the early going, to some longer form emotional storytelling, just as kind of, so we can feel it a little bit more than just sort of nodding sagely than turning back to our phones

and ignoring everything we just learned. So I feel like one of the reasons why I react so strongly to Squid game is that it's like you're kind of being taken by the hand and you're being walked into a swimming pool by the by the storytellers and they're saying okay take take take take take take we're lifeguard by the way is this your own you're fine no but it's like take a step take a step in the water's okay you see okay take another step in you know now we're swimming a little bit we're treading water a little bit and then in the last 20 minutes yanks you underneath you know which is right

when you're like okay I'm ready to be yanked and it's It's all guided and it's all story. Whereas foundation, despite obvious achievements, whether it's in special effects, whether it's in the widescreen kind of blockbuster elements that it deploys. And honestly, like, some of the ideas that it's kicking around. And Isaac Asimov obviously is going to have this warehouse of like really provocative, really interesting ideas about society and civilization. Foundation is all plot.

foundation is a Wikipedia page to start the show. This is actually, I remember, I was trying to remember why the last time I felt this way. And it was when I tried to watch The Expans, which was a similar kind of like, here's a story, but wait, before I get into that, let me just mention the outer rims of this place.

And then you have to really start to go back to the Civil War that occurred between these people. By way, did I mention that the moon is like this now? And it's like, okay. Now, I don't mind shows like that all the time. and sometimes I think that it's my impatience that sort of has robbed me the experience of watching The Expans and possibly will come think of that about foundation.

But I think that you can just, it's just the difference between plot and story. You know, I always go back to that Seth Rogen thing where he's like, you're giving people what they think they want, which is plot, which is learning all about this world, but what you're really giving them is story, which is what they're really going to take from this whole experience. And that is, when he's talking about Superbad,

he's like, the plot of Superbad is these two guys want to get laid, but the story of Superbad is these two guys are in love with each other and are going to miss each other when they leave for college. And it's kind of the, I don't know what the story of Foundation is. I'll stop you there. Foundation needs that plot and that story from Superbad. Like, it would be improved. And I know that's glib, but I kind of mean it.

I want to tread carefully when talking about this because it is clearly a labor of love and a massive labor. for people involved. I think that there probably are hardcore sci-fi fans, generally played by Martin Starr and Party Down, who have been waiting for something like this. And there were moments in the early going of the pilot where I did feel at least a little bit of a charge

that this was world building that wasn't Star Wars. It just, you know, that the ships were different, you know? Just anything was a little bit different from just the, same type of sci-fi imagery or tech that we've become accustomed to and that the, you know, that the imaginations could still be big enough to take us to different galaxies or edges, outposts of the empire, whatever. I'd also say that it's probably a good thing and probably one of the things that David Goyer and Josh Friedman said to Apple when they were trying to get this moving that got it moving, which is they probably said only with your backing and only on

TV at this particular moment in time, could we attempt something this gigantic without doing Joseph Campbell's myth of the hero? Right? We don't need to start with Luke on the outpost of the galaxy and then work our way in with him as our point of view character because we can tell that story, which they do do in this pilot to a small degree. But we can also, we don't have to just tell bottom up storytelling. We can also start at the very top and show how the emperors.

plural exists and what that means. And we can go to the side here. And I think the issue ultimately, though, is just comes all the way back to what you said, which is it does feel like we're being taught or lectured and shown things with the purpose of caring about them at some unknown date in the future. And all of this leads me to believe something that I didn't actually think would be possible, which is this show could never exist at any other moment.

done this way at this scale. But I kind of feel like bizarrely it missed its moment. And what I mean by that is, and when we talked about the trailer, right, we talked about the book. And you've not read the book, right? I have not. Books of who. Books great.

One of the reasons the book is unfilmable is because it's a series of vignettes told across a million years, right? The book is, you know, the way storytell, you know, you guys, I'm talking to everybody now, know that like Spider-Man's origin in Amazing Fantasy, whatever it was, 15, is like one page. A boy's in high school. He gets bitten. His uncle died. Now he's Spider-Man.

Let's get on with it, right? Like, that's how storytelling used to be. It didn't have to be first season is boy gets bit by spider. I think the Harry Seldon stumbles across something in his math that says the empire is going to die. It's like a 16-page chapter like in the book. And then it's like a million years in the future. the influence of Harry Selden's visions and prophecies and all this stuff.

All of this makes me think that this should have been like a sci-fi show in 2003. They should have filmed this with the same budget that like Sliders had with Jerry O'Connell. I feel like this show needs limits. I feel like what made foundation interesting was the size of its ideas mixed with kind of the humility of its telling, if that makes sense. Isn't that kind of what the secret of Game of Thrones's early success was? Because it was a little bit more modest before it exploded into widescreen. It was people going into other rooms and being like, I heard the guy in the other room said this about you.

Now, that said, you know, the book also doesn't have the characters for the chamber drama. So a lot of this is created out of whole cloth, you know, and some, I think, pretty clever innovations like the Lepe's Empire stuff so that they could be clones so that the same actor can be. in all the different eras of the show. But the other point that I want to bring to you, and I wonder what you think about this. So I feel like it could have been made 15 years ago or it could have been made like two years later because the idea of science being like,

you're not going to want to hear this, but things are about to get bad. And the ruling classes being like, we don't want to hear this. In fact, shut up forever is newly relevant in our experience. Well, but shut up forever, but really I'm just going to exile you to a place called Terminus where you can do some.

research in case it might be beneficial to me down the line. Right, which was, I believe, Anthony Fauci from May of 2020 until like November 9th, right? So that piece of it is kind of newly relevant and may be interested, but the show kind of missed that thing. And instead, it's back to the kind of very familiar hard sci-fi posturing of like, they can't handle the truth, which I've sketched out for them. And then, you know, emperors being like, let me explode the head. of fresco cleaners because it establishes that I am, you know, maybe not the best person.

So that's not recognizable humanity in a story that I think was based on a very specific post-World War II, you know, we, things can go super bad. And if they do, and if they do, we might want to create an arc of knowledge. And only our minds can get us out of this, right? Yeah. I mean, I was like, pretty much like the, that was the plot of interstellar. there's plenty of like sci-fi shows and movies that are kind of like that. There was some stuff to like in this show. So in the first episode, like Andy alluded to, there is this thing called Imperial cloning,

which allows Lee Pace to be sort of like the optimal version of himself, where looking like Lee Pace. He's named Day. Then there is Dust who is like the older wiser. And then there is Dawn, which is the young version of him, like a seven-year-old boy. And I was watching that and I was like, I'm in. When could we get this going? Because it would be pretty cool.

Like, let's just say for the sake of the argument, like, we are the dusk versions of ourselves, right? Indubidably. Without a doubt. That is what I am. So we got grizzled, wizened Andy and Chris, right? For me, then maybe I go with like 30-year-old me high and listening dipset mixtapes when I'm, you know, like.

right? And then that's day. And then Dawn could be me just like gunning down bass runners in the Fairmount Sports Association for behind the plate like just Benito Santiagoing dudes. You know what I mean?

Like that that's a very, I think forget ordinary Joe. We got to get a show where like a guy gets to live with the old and young versions of himself. I think that's brilliant. And I think that with the danger here is you've really drawn an important and honestly a little bit,

spiriting distinction because all three versions of you sound fire. Like they sound awesome. I would love to spend time and have spent time with two of the three. I don't know if Apple is really, I know they have a lot of money, but I don't really know if they're going to fully fund a show about young me reading books alone and having opinions about them, middle me, reading books alone and having opinions about them, or older me watching TV complaining he doesn't have enough time to read books and complaining about all of it. Like, I, I just feel like that's not that compelling. But your version sounds dope.

I love it. I like that. I thought that the depiction or the rendering of the city, what's the Trantors that the planet, the empire's on? I thought that that city and then the collapse of the Starbridge was pretty cool. It was like I watched it on a pretty big TV and I was like... Yeah, that's cool.

It looked beautiful. Rupert Sanders directed it. Good job. Yeah. I can tell. I can tell it's like you're struggling to find things to like here. I really struggled. I found it really cold and impenetrable.

And I think that it does the thing that historically I've struggled with when it comes to ambitious genre entertainment, which is we need to push all our chips in to make this as serious as possible just to understand it. And as soon as you're in that place, and especially when you're on this scale, I struggled to find a way in. Just a sly moment of, I mean, Lee Pace's eyebrows are doing a lot of work. Jared Harris is a wonderful presence on television and does a lot of work just by being there. But, you know, the ways that they talk about humanity in general, just in the most macro ways possible, like all of this is going to be doomed.

I mean, this is why I think it was essentially unfilmable, unless it was going to be like almost like an anthology series. Isaac Asimov's the premise, if you will, where it's just like these are the different moments in 50 million years of human history where things kind of could have gone one of two ways. Or you would have had to have basically made what happens on Trantor in the first episode the climax of the first season.

Do you know what I mean? It would almost be like everything about it would be like Harry coming across his mathematical equation, Harry putting out the call for somebody to come disprove it, all the while, like these other things, things that the empire are happening. There's just like, yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's just so far. And I think that, like, again, like, it's obviously, it's just labor of love. It's obviously a passion project. It's obviously very ambitious. So I'm very curious to check

out its development over the course of the first season, because I think maybe they had to do a lot in the first, I mean, Goyers talked about how he has eight seasons mapped out. So maybe there needed to be a lot going on in the first episode to set up the rest of the season. So I'm curious to check it out. There were some cool performances. But yeah, I mean... You can't... This is not... I don't think this is a concern troll, but this is just a point of view on it. Like, this could turn around.

It could... There could be untold elements of humanity and humor, things that are still to come. Season three could be when it really gets good. And honestly, when you're dealing with Apple, we might get there. You know, whether the two of us feel it deserves it or not... For all mankind is a great... is a great reason to stay in with foundation. Because for All Mankind, I had a little bit of a hard time getting past the first few episodes

of the first season, kind of lost track, watched the second season, went back and finish the first season, which is stupid. But I was like, this show has gotten great. Maybe Foundation can do the same thing. I just feel, though, it is worth just paying attention to it because you cannot spend your way to people's hearts when it comes to... mass market entertainment. It just doesn't. It doesn't work that way. And for me, this was like the first, this was the first skirmish in the post-game of Thrones War to kind of hit our screens. And it's the

same coming into it. This did nothing to dispel my concerns about totally unrelated, except in the ways that we're considering them projects like Wheel of Time or, you know, Lord of the Rings series. It's just, this was designed beautifully and laboriously to just capture people, right? And just enchant and educate and illuminate and inspire. And I watched this episode and I felt the weight. I felt the weight of the pressure and the ambition. It's hard to engineer a blockbuster, man. It is.

It's hard to be like, hey, we have, we spent a ton of money of this and we have huge expectations. And the reason I wanted to kind of just a little bit connect. this to another project with it just had a teaser trailer released, which is that idea. And that it's difficult, it's just difficult to do this, especially with older IP that was beloved in a different era. A lot of Himes actually not that old. She looks a lot older than Cooper Hoffman, but I guess that's part of the story. Because I was worried it was like a dear Evan Hansen thing, but we'll circle back.

The Sandman is one of the most important comic books ever published, incredibly meaningful. to me, Neil Gaiman series from the late 80s and 90s. Also, you know, much obsessed over and considered unfilmable by many people. It's been filmed. It is coming to Netflix. I should also say at the top, I am not unbiased. It's being show run by an old friend of mine, Alan Heinberg, who I can attest knows and loves this material. So Netflix had this sort of celebration for itself with a name that I don't even want to say because it's so dumb. It's so dumb. It's that really, It really bothers me. Is that weird?

It's supposed to be the sound that you hear when Netflix boots up. I like your version better. But anyway, they released a minute teaser trailer and I have to say, feeling a little confident about it, not just because I like the guy who made it, but it seems to be doing something

that I think maybe would have gotten lost in other planned adaptations. And I wonder if there's some lesson here regards to foundation, which is Sandman has an outsized role in people's imagination, is they loved all of it and where it ended up. And I think a majority of the people who have read Sandman

and all of its beautiful musings on time and art and dream and literature, they devoured it whole, right? Like 10 volumes on the shelf, and they went on a journey with all the different places that it went. What I think is overlooked is that when it started, before it launched DC's Vertigo imprint and heralded this age of a quote-unquote adult comics or comics for adults, It was a DC comic loosely based on an existing DC franchiser idea of Sandman.

And the first six issues aren't that weird. They aren't that profound. These British guys capture an eternal spirit, the physical embodiment of dreaming. And then what? And what I loved about the trailer and what it suggests about the adaptation is that Alan remembered that and is starting the show. show in the most plotty place possible, which I think is smart for these things. Before it goes into, I mean, there's later issues of Sandman are basically like, here is why William Shakespeare wrote

The Tempest. Like, I don't think you should start with that. Start with a dude with cheekbones like Tom Sturridge on the floor. You know what I mean? It's TV. And I think that's also the smart thing about having Alan do it, because not just that he loves comic books, but he spent years working on the O.C. and Gray's Anatomy and like, there's a way to do this, you know, and it's not necessarily, I'm going to show you the important weight of something that you have been denied for 60 years, but here, first, you have to watch these 59 minutes. That seems backwards to me. I maybe, Saman might not be the right vehicle ultimately to make that point, but I thought it was an interesting contrast. I just want to know where the bar is that like Charles Dance and Jared

Harris go after their day on the set. And they're just like, what did you do today? I was like, Oh, well, I had an orb in front of me, and I sort of gesticulated and an equation emerged in light and danced across the face of my young protege before I was arrested for crimes against the empire. What about you, Chuck? Charles dances. Like, I threw an angel's feather up in the air and conjured one of the children of death. Yes, it's, well, sibling of death, but. Sibling of death, yeah, sorry.

There is something amazing. I mean, I was, I don't know, I know, I know, Chris, that you're an avid, pay your attention to of, you know, the expanded Harry Potter universe. And they, like, announced, which I wasn't until my daughter. But, right. Like, there's a new fantastic beast movie. Yeah. Isn't it got like the same plot as, like, Marathon Man? The new one?

Yeah. Probably. Where it's like dudes in, like, Brazil before World War II. Right? I guess I haven't read that plot synopsis. Is that what it's about? Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I was just like, isn't it leading up to World War II?

Doesn't it actually take place like in an alternate history, right? All of these movies take place in the, all I know about them is from the time that one of them was on HBO before Game of Thrones. And we were doing the after show live. So we were in a room with Mallory and Jason watching it. And our takeaway was, I'm sorry, Colin Farrell becomes Johnny Depp and that's an upgrade. That's all I remember. but it is set earlier in the 20th century.

I only was breaking this up because this movie is called Secrets of Dumbledore, and there's hot Dumbledore in it because Jude Law has entered the chat. Jude Law has now entered the chat. And so all of these British actors, it is just as much of a tradition now. You get to do, I'll name check it, you know, you get to do your leer, and you also get to do your CGI wizard. They all do it, and they get their paychecks and they buy their country houses. but it's just part, like, do you think that Rada,

like the school in London now has a course in just CGI bullshit? They're like, you're going to stand here, the ping pong ball is going to be here, they just want your accent, and they just want you to sell it. And if that's a business idea, you and I should investigate it.

Teaching incredible, like people who have been doing Pinter for 30 years and be like, here's the thing, is Chris Evans is going to look at this tennis ball over on the wall. here is the premise, according to Wikipedia.org of this new

Fantastic Beast movie. Several years after the events of the crimes of Grindelwald, the story takes place partly in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and partly in Berlin, Germany, and leads up to the Wizarding World's involvement

in World War II. What? With Grindlewalt's power rapidly growing, Albus Dumbledore entrusts Newt's commander and his friends on a mission that will lead to a clash

with Grindlewold's army and lead Dumbledore to ponder how long he will stay on the sidelines in the approaching war. Okay, I'm allowed to say this. I'm not sure how many people of our listeners are. Just going by names, I feel like Grindlewold is on the wrong side of World War II here. Do you know what I mean? I feel like maybe he would be more of a target of World War II than one of the instigators. That's just my back of the notepad scratching here.

Thank you for telling me that. Because one of the things that I said to my daughter, when I said they cast young Dumbledore and she was like, no, when she saw the picture, was I wasn't sure if she should be seeing these movies. Because my understanding is, like the Harry Potter series, the characters age every year and like the level of intensity ages every year. Now that I know that this is basically like the collapse of Europe and like the be. beginnings of fascism in the wizarding world? It sounds like an Allen first novel, yeah. I think maybe we should see it, but I think that it's probably best to keep her away from it.

So thank you. You've done me a service. The only other thing, we can leave Saman there. Obviously, the Lickers Pizza trailer came out today. I don't really, no, if we have a lot of takes, here's my take. Yeah. Much like the David Bowie's song Life on Mars. Paul Thomas Anderson is just good.

Yep. This movie looks incredible. even if it is a mishmash of Dasey confused with punch drug love with inherent vice with a loving homage to growing up in the San Fernando Valley

I will be seeing this as soon as humanly possible in the most extravagant way possible hopefully at the new Beverly with like 45 minutes of trailers and shorts beforehand and a giant cherry Dr. Pepper or something it just looks awesome it looks awesome

and Coops especially looks like he's having a blast. I hear everything you're saying, and I just want to counter it with a very, very humble and heartfelt. Does it? Are we sure? Are we sure this looks good? I don't think it looks that good. What are you comparing it to?

Here's the thing. This is already kind of a fraudulent conversation, because anything P.T. Anderson does in my mind, and in many people's minds is worth seeing and is probably going to be better than almost anything else. I also am very much of the opinion that an artist of his caliber

sometimes sit a couple plays out. Sometimes you don't always throw 100 mile per hour heat. Sometimes you throw the change up, right? And you work out different muscles and you get some things out of your system and then it leads you to the next thing. I am one of the minority of PTA fans

who does not particularly care for Punch Drunk Love. But clearly he had to to make Punch Drunk Love in order to make there will be blood and the master, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know what this is, and I found it sort of, I just, I didn't, I didn't respond to it. I did not respond to the trailer. It did not make me that excited. It made me a little bit confused because it felt like, it felt like a heat check, Chris. It just felt like a heat check.

Like he's done. Well, how can it be a heat check, but also, so are you saying this is the changeup or are you saying this is like, right? Right. So it would be more of a like refusing to shoot from outside the paint. Not that you and I know anybody who does that. Right. I mean, when he could have dunked and instead just passed it. Because he's done the 70s in the San Fernando Valley before. He's done love letters to cinema, right? He's cast two unknowns as the lead, which is interesting.

I don't know. I just, I don't know. Well, I think that if I have anything I noted, which is mostly just that like some of his contemporaries, be it, um, Wes Anderson or maybe even Noah Baumbach, you know, have settled into a type of movie that they make. This is where I was hoping you would go. I think that most people want Paul Thomas Anderson to be Stanley Kubrick and that like every movie he makes is a huge cinematic event. I think it is anyway. And that it somehow generates a huge like conversation about like trying to unlock what it's about, trying to think about what he's trying to say with it. And when he makes a movie like, I don't know, like inherent vice or something that seems like a little bit more straightforward and comic and tender, that it's like, oh, do you just want to make stoner movies? Do you want to

make cool stoner movies with good soundtrack set in 1970s, California? And I'm like, I don't know. Is there like a surplus of good stoner movies set in California? There's a few of them. But like, do, I would just as soon take five more of those than like five more foundations, you know? I agree with you. I am very eager to see what this is. And I really, really, really, really hope that this is just me waking up on the wrong side of the futon in North Hollywood this morning. Like, and that it's actually great. Like, it probably will be.

I think it is a different conversation when you're talking about an artist like him because, you know, they're not all masterpieces, but everything is worthwhile. And everything is part of the larger thing. And not many people get to make movies like that at all. And I think that your point about being one of the few autours and then wanting to change it up is a real thing. You know, this is a digression that maybe we'll talk about more and full at a different point. But I was thinking about Colson Whitehead, who has a new book out and his last two books. Parliament shuffle, yeah. His last two books, the Nickel Boys and the Underground Railroad, which inspired the Barry Jenkins series.

Both won the Pulitzer Prize. And I was realizing that not only does he write a book basically every two years, but he just writes them in different genres effortlessly and how rare that is. And when you compare it to someone like Jonathan Franzen who has a new book coming out, every eight years he delivers another definitive 700-page opus about the American nuclear family and different permutations of it. And what do we want out of these people? But I want a new PTA Anderson movie. I am with you on it. I don't know. I don't know why the trailer didn't get me. Well, I mean, usually he has a couple of different approaches in his trailers.

Like, you know, typically, like I remember the master especially had like a bunch of different, like weird looks. So, you know, this seems like a much more comic affair than the master. But who knows? Maybe it's a little bit more dramatic. It's a little bit more tense. And we'll see some different looks in different trailers to come. So we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll have our interview with Sterling Harjo. We'll also be back on Thursday. I think we're doing a regular show on Thursday. So yeah, it's next week that we have a mailbag. So we'll put out a call to mail for mailbag questions shortly.

Thanks for listening to The Watch and please enjoy our interview with Sterling. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC. or future's commission merchant. 18 plus.

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Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. Sterner, thank you so much for joining me and Andy today on the Watch. Reservation Dogs is one of our favorite shows of the year, and it's just been so awesome to talk about it over these last few weeks, and we're so excited to find out more about it by talking about it with you.

Yeah, thank you. It's been good hearing your, you know, I got sent your episodes as they were coming out. And yeah, it was really cool. Thank you for being fans. And, you know, it's interesting because, like, there were so many things that you got really spot on. I mean, like, specifically, I remember a link later connection, which, like, you know, is a big influence and all of that stuff. You know, like all of that sort of end up was a big influence on me. And also, like, any films that involved kids hanging out, whether it's days confused or stand by me or Goonies or The Lost Boys or.

or Friday or, you know, Boys in the Hood. Like, it was like, all of that is what I was raised on, you know. And I hadn't seen anything like it in a while, you know? Like, I wanted to kind of shout all of that stuff out, but also it felt like the perfect vehicle. I mean, because native storytelling and film and cinema has been so behind to the point where no one even knew what the real life was like. So, in a way, it was like so weird to be.

doing something that felt so radical that was just really telling the truth and showing regular people, you know? And those references in those films felt like the perfect way to package a story about Native kids, you know, and like kind of something that felt familiar, I think, to especially people our age, but like also felt new in a way as well. So yeah, I mean, I appreciate all of your thoughts and references. Yeah, I thought I caught the, the, the sharp right outside of the scrapyard, I think it's incoming at your love where before Kirk Scott does his

little thing about string theory where it's like right out of repo man where they're burning the stuff in the... Yeah. The director of that Black Horse Lowe from that episode is a big repo man. I mean, he's a cinephile

and so we talk a lot about it. And like it's great to have these friends that have these different perspectives and influences because, you know, You know, when I'm with Black Horse, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, repo man and Tarkovsky and, and, you know, like, Holy Mountain and like El Topo. And then it's like, you know, with Tosba, we would talk Casavetes or we would talk

license to drive, you know, because it's this driver's life. She literally like at the end where there's a moment where Laura Dannen gets out of her car and like kind of leans over on the car and telling him that he doesn't mean toilet, telling Bill Burr. That was just a straight exact replica reference from license to drive when he gets out of the car at the end

and talks to Mercedes, I think. That's so good. Yeah, and like, it was like, you know, and our first shout out is to Tarantino with the title. But then it was like, well, what does he do that I love? Which is like he gives

homage to all of this amazing sentiment. It's like, well, what does the new version of that look like where we're referencing something that, you know, these films from the 80s and 90s, you know, like, how do we shot those out? And also, like, I love, like, that there's something not

pretentious about shouting out one of the most iconic scenes of platoon, you know? It's like, we're not trying to be like, yeah, yeah, we're not trying to change the world with these homages, but like, it's more about giving people something familiar and funny to, because like, I mean, look, like, I think growing up in rural Oklahoma or anywhere that's rural and small,

you do live through pop culture references. And so especially these kids, I wanted to show them kind of their perspective and point of view was living through, is living through pop culture. And it's like, what does their point of view look like? Well, it's always more dramatic and, like, it's always bigger and there's always more happening. I mean, I remember like walking train tracks when I was young and we walked all over my hometown of Holdenville. And, you know, in my mind, it was the town that stand by me took place. And it was like, any day now, we're going to find a dead body or, or, you know, Keeper Soul, Sutherland's gang is going to like track us down and fight us, you know.

It felt like that, you know. And I think part of it is like creating your own fun. You know, like your own excitement in a small town. And for me, these kids do. It's like, you know, let's steal a chip truck. And, you know, it's just like you create your own mythology, I think. And that's kind of what I want to do with the show. Well, it's also that you understand your own stakes, right?

Because if you're in a small town, walking on, walking on railroad track or actually stealing a truck, like that is the biggest event of the year, if not like the decade. And the show keeps its focus on those level of stakes. We understand how big these things are for these characters because we're right there with them. Right. And at the same time, they face the biggest stakes, which is death, you know? And I think there's something about, like, sort of rural storytelling that I love, which is, like, Flannery O'Connor or, like, watching, like, or, like, even, like, Faulkner as I lay dying. I mean, like, that is such a, like, story that I love, like, like, like, like, like, like, my.

Mama needs to get across the creek, you know, and we're going to pay hell to get her over there, you know, but we're going to do it, you know? And like, there's this code baked into that that I feel very, I feel a connection to that code. And that, like, I think that Southern Gothic in a way does stuff really well where it's like, what is the, what should we all be most concerned about? Oh, the death. I mean, like, that's the big one. I mean, we are concerned about all this other stuff and my wife, I can know, whatever.

and it's like, why aren't we worried about that more? Like, why aren't we constantly thinking about it, you know? And I am. And it's like, you know, and I feel like some of that literature does that. And it's like that's, you know, it's like, I always had a problem. Like I didn't like I didn't like the film in Nebraska. And like anytime I just feel like you're, they're making rural folks seem like idiots and these stereotypes, I hate that because there's so much more knowledge.

And, you know, it's like if the shit hit the fan and all of our food systems broke down, like, I would be in the country, you know, because they know how to live and they know how to survive. And it's like, I'm not going to be hanging around my lawyer buddy. Like, maybe my doctor buddy needs to come along, you know, but like, I don't know. It's like, I just always grew up with these people in my town and I always just had this love for the knowledge that they carried. And, yeah, I mean, I had a big family, big native.

family. So someone was always dying. That's like, fuck, man. There's a lot of shit going on. Like, and this is the worst. Why are we not talking about this? Like, why is that not on the news? You know, it's like, so I don't know. I feel like that's what the show is concerned with as well.

It's like how death ripples through a friend and community or a community a large. But also, um, the humor of like how you sort of, uh, create your world and your drama as well. I guess I want to, um, go back a little bit just in terms of the development of the show, Just because, you know, reading a little bit about you, knowing about the films that you were making, you know, that you live in Oklahoma, stayed in Oklahoma. And I heard you on Mark Maren's podcast talk about a project, you know, that went a little bit further down the road in terms of TV development. And ultimately, you know, you were not, your creative vision was not what they were looking for, right? Or that they expressed that in some way or another. All of this to say, when this opportunity came about, why did FX have your trust?

just to frame it that way. Like what were those early conversations like about what you were bringing? Yeah. Well, the early conversation was Taika vouching for me. Right. And that brings so much to the table. And, you know, he's a beloved human being and an artist. And they love him a lot there.

And so just the fact that he wanted to walk a project in that I had. And, you know, that was enough trust for them. But then, you know, I did feel like at first, I think in any case that, you know, there's a bit of a like probation period where it's like, okay, hopefully this guy knows what he's doing. And I remember feeling when they, when FX really, you know, it was once we started writing the scripts. And I wrote the next three after the pilot. Taka and I wrote the pilot and then I wrote the next three. That's before the writer's room started because we got shut down during the pandemic when we were about to, Tika was going to come direct to pilot. And so then I think like just them seeing how I crafted the next few episodes, the trust

grew. But I mean, for the most part, it was like Taika, like my friend Taika vouching for me. And, you know, we had just been old friends and had a similar sensibility and always read each other's scripts. And one day we came up with this idea. And luckily, and it was easy because we both had scripts that were sort of similar. Like my dad's a martial artist, uh, instructor since I was four in rural Oklahoma still is his day. And he, um, started Taekwondo and that's more of a mixed thing. But, um,

and his name's Brownie. He's, Uncle Brownie's named after him. There's a lot of things that are similar. But, um, um, you know, so I, I had a script at one point that was about these native kids that were getting bullied. And they knew of this legendary martial arts, instructor that lived in the woods and was like a recluse, you know, like with that story. And like, they needed to go convince him to help them fight. And so he starts training them in Taekwondo and takes them to start fighting it. And so it's really obviously about, you know, it's more about what they teach him than it is what he teaches, you know. And so that was one idea. And then Taika had one that was great. And it was like, this kid in a Maori village in New Zealand becomes a

vigilante, decides to become a vigilante and clean his community up. And like, I just remember him talking about this one shot where it's like this kid with a mask and a cape on. He's just like sitting on a really short house just like on the corner. Like he's looking over Gotham, but it's just like this little, you know. And so, you know, we just sort of took those two ideas and like expanded on them and put them together and then, you know, sculpted whatever we came up with. I guess it's just so noteworthy because what you came up with and what we just loved watching unfold over the course of the season was, I mean, it's, It's not so Machiavellian is this, but it was almost like a Trojan horse show where you watch the first episode and hear these four kids and we understand that there's death in their life recently and they want to escape. And that's the action of the show and they need money and there's hijinks that will ensue.

And then over the next few episodes, you know, it just sort of mutates and evolves and becomes something so much richer and deeper and less about these four kids with this specific action plan and more about the community that made them that they have this love hate relationship with. And by the end of it, as you probably heard us say, we want to watch an episode about literally every person that's ever come on the screen. How much of that thinking was baked in from the beginning that if you can get this opening right, you can open it as wide as the lens could go as wide as possible. You know, it was interesting. I mean, like, I mean, I think some of that's basic writing, which is like, and always knowing that no one knows this world, you know, like I have to, I have to hold

there's not a lot of handholding in the show, but I had to go gentle into the first episode, it feels like, and part of that was not gentle, just dropping you into this, like, high-east or whatever, you know,

and throwing out the slang, and, like, I knew people would be unfamiliar with it. But honestly, like, I learned a lot, I think, just from the English office.

Like, I remember when I first watched that, and there was something about that that really, like, struck a chord in me. I remember my cousin and I watching it, and there's, you know,

Native humor is very specific, but there's aspects of like that, that humor that felt native to me. You know, like, like some of the rhythms. And I remember, you know, like, I think like teasing's really big in native humor. And like also like, my cousin and I was trying to analyze our humor. And it was like, we love watching someone go out on a limb and really go for it and fail. Like, that's just like hilarious. And like, you know, what is the English office without that? You know, it's David Brett wanting to be a comedian and like just failing all the time. and so but I remember

taking a couple of episodes to really the rhythms of that and the language and but it hooked me like once I did it hooked me and like and I always thought that would be really cool

to try to do that with Native show because you know in the native world that was such a conversation was like man I wish there was a show with native humor

like someday you ought to do a show that shows our humor you know it's different you know and like there's constantly something that I thought about and was talked about and I had a comedy group and you know we we and honestly without that comedy group we wouldn't have been able to do this show because we it was trial by error it was a trial and error of like what works what doesn't work like what do non-native people laugh at like

we bomb a lot like how do we give them permission to laugh with us and not feel the guilt of genocide and like you know just be in their heads you know I was like how do that and so so whenever it came to the show it was very just it felt just like right writing into a world, like how I would write into any world that no one was familiar with. And it was like start in this way that we drop you in. And then just start kind of painting the portrait of this community. And but the point was always to get to the hunting episode. You know, the point for me was like, I want to go, we got to go through all this stuff

and world building, but I want to get there. Like I want to get to where I can do that. You know, and like that, that episode is just me and my dad hunting growing up. I mean, like, I literally, like, we used to hunt across the road and we didn't own the land. And, you know, some Texas ranchers bought it. And I always thought it was ours, but it wasn't. And then, like, you know, it was like, you know, and then I remember the, all of a sudden, the ranchers put cattle on the land. And then we couldn't, it was just like cows were everywhere.

And then all of a sudden they bulldo us the whole thing. And like, but like there was a mythology to this land. And like this, I just didn't know when I was growing up that it wasn't ours. and I don't know, like, and those conversations, I mean, like, I think like, you know, not just native things, but like, there's not many episodes of hunting, you know, in TV. And there's a lot of people that hunt. You know, it's like, it's not that there's not that it doesn't exist. And there are people that feed their families in that way. And like, I wanted to sort of show that.

And there was one trope that you always see in every show where there's a hunting thing happen. or movie, they always line up the crosshairs on the animal and then they feel sorry for it. They do the deer hunter thing. They don't shoot. So that's why I have her at the end, line it up, look at it. Turn her, like, pick her head up and look at it and then go back down and drop it. You know, it's like, I just want to be the opposite of that. And so, but like one of the things that I wanted that episode would be about was like when

you're in the woods hunting, you know, my dad would always say like it's not about killing an animal. like it's about being in the woods. And what you realize, I think, is that it's therapy. And it's like, if you're with a parent, it's a way that you get to get away from everything and talk. And so for me, Willie Jack and her dad was like this place where they could safely go and be alone and finally sort of talk to each other about how they feel about Daniel.

And so for me, it was like always trying to get to those episodes, you know. And but the other episodes I felt like were essential to get us there. And what's interesting now is like, well now now we kind of broke this thing up but i mean like i wanted like another episode was like i want to get to where people will accept the dear lady you know because that's something that i grew up with like knowing and one thing that type and i talked a lot about was you know in our communities and in indigenous communities that supernatural stuff isn't discussed like in a precious way It's just matter of fact.

And you don't question it. And it's just like, yeah, like, you know, I've heard that story of like every community, everyone that I know from each, all of these tribes has a story where their uncle picked up a hitchhacker and saw that she had hooves. And, you know, it's just like, it's these like legends and it's like teaching people how to be in warnings and all of stuff and it's parables. And, you know, it's, it's mythology. And, but like the way that it's approached in our communities is just truthful.

Like, it's just like a fact. Like, you know, there are things out there that we don't understand. And I wanted that to be the feeling in this show where I can do that. Like, I can show a woman that has hooves as feet and the audience will go like, okay, we're in. Like, we're still in, you know? And so it'll be interesting with season two now that we've done that. Like, where does it go? You know, like, how do you even surprise and change even more?

Because you got to surprise yourself now. You know what I mean? Because we're used to the surprise. I mean, those vignettes, those five, six, and seven, Andy and I talked about a lot, which was like, I don't know if you would say that they're technically bottle episodes in any way, but they're obviously like sort of solo adventures for each kid. And you could look at those as digressions or something,

but they actually are in some ways more essential than any of the other episodes because they, once you finally find out what actually happened with Daniel, like you've been prepared for that moment because you understand how it's impacted all of the other. those kids individually in such a profound way. So what do you do, like, when you're, when you're writing the next season, like, do you, are you like, okay, well, is there a format or like a model now? I've had three days. I've had three days in the writer's room and I've already blown it up like three times. You know, it's like, that's what I do. Like, like, I never knew what a showrunner did,

really until like I was doing it. But like, I had had this company group and we would try sketches and talk about them. We never wrote anything out. We just talked and then we would change it and make stuff work. But like for me, it's about holding our feet to the fire. Like, like, what is this show? And we had an episode in my, in Friday's Riders Room, we had an episode that we were all excited about. We ended it being excited about that episode. But it was also a rough day. And you have rough days in Riders Room where it's like, oh, like nothing's working. And so when I came back this morning, I thought about it all weekend. And then this morning,

I said, all right, that episode is like, that's not this show, right? Like, it's not, like, we all know that. And but we wanted it to be, but it's not. So let's throw that out and then let's throw out everything that we thought. And then what if we start here and where do we go? You know, and so we did, we had a good day. You know, I felt everyone was very happy with it. That'll probably happen a few more times.

And, you know, it's like, I think that, I mean, look, whenever I watch Atlanta, especially season two. When I watched that and I saw the Teddy Perkins episode, it did to me what great cinema has done to me from the beginning and why I want to do film, why I wanted to do it be a filmmaker.

It excited me in a way that I was like, whoa, like, there's so much more that's possible. And that shows just so good that like, there would be no reservation dogs without Atlanta. Like, it cracked open this way of storytelling. that like I feel like gave me the freedom and the courage to know that an audience can go with you. And and yeah, man, I mean, like, and then the trick is like, how do you, how do you make sure you capture that, what you've done at once? You know, it's like, okay, we've got to do it

again, you know? And I think that's what's exciting about it and it's a challenge. And like, you know, it's erasing it's time too. It's not like you have four years to just lie around and say, oh, man, let's try this. You know, it's like, no, it's like, this is coming quick, you know, like we have to figure it out. I want to ask you about casting because one of the real pleasures in watching the first season was seeing whether it was Pauline Alexis as Willie Jack or West DUDE as Bucky just deliver, you know, in such surprising ways from either what I thought I knew about them,

from, you know, in Paulina's case, two episodes of your show versus a lifetime of watching. watching West Studio on the screen. And the more I thought about that question, the more I realized it's less about, I think, what did you see in them that gave you the confidence that you could cast them and write these sorts of moments or emotional beats? And more about why didn't I see it?

Why had I never seen that before in my own expectations? Yeah, and Zon, you mentioned Zon. Like, I think that- He's incredible. I feel like he must have been having the time of his life going to be funny. Yeah, part of it was Zon as I'm friends with him. So like, I had worked with him on another project that never saw the latter day,

but like, and he was in my film Miko. where he plays a evil guy. And, but my experience with him while we weren't shooting was he's hilarious. And so I was like, I always told him, I was like, I want to write a comedy for you, man. You got to do a comedy. And he's like, yeah, no one ever writes a comedy for me, you know? And he's so funny. And like, but all of them are funny.

And knowing that, I mean, you know, like if you watch Wes in was a mystery man, where he's like the oracles, right? Yeah. Yeah, like he's, you know, like he's capable of it. And just like, and then Gary Farmer is a legend as far as native cinema goes. Like, you know, it's like there are three things to watch. And it's like power highway, dead man and smoke signals. And he's in all of him, you know?

And, you know, he's, he kind of acts circles around Johnny Depp. And Johnny Depp's sort of the straight man to his, like, comedy. And it's hilarious. And, you know, um, So it was always like, I feel like I always, I don't know. And then also just knowing the communities. I mean, like I've traveled to so many reservations for my career to show my films or their comedy group.

And it's like, you just know the communities. And it's like there are so many amazing, hilarious stories. I mean, that's the main thing that I think we do in indigenous communities and native communities is laugh. And it's like, you know, it's like there would be no survival of genocide without that sense of humor. and to be able to, and I just didn't see these people. So like, whenever we were casting, it's like, we're not going to find them all in Hollywood.

Like, they're not just going to be there. Like, we have to go out and find them. And it was like, you know, you just see something special. I mean, like, Paulina was originally auditioning for a Lord Annon. And she was just so funny that Tyke and I were like, we have to put her in the show. Like, she could be, and Willie Jack was originally a boy. So we're like, no, we're going to.

we're going to basically tailor this to her now, you know? And she was just so funny in her audition. She was like, hey, like I just like really confident. She's like, you know, I want to be a cheerleader. I want to like ride a horse. Like I want to like do Indian relay horse racing, MMA fire. I mean, like she was listing kind of like what she does in her episode.

In the show, yeah. Yeah, she's like listing all the stuff. And it was just like she's so funny and confident. But also like I feel like in every native community there is that her humor. She hits this like central like sort of humor that encapsulates native humor to me. And part of that is watching her shine and like letting her go. And I learned early on when I filmed the pilot, it's like, oh, like she, I mean, there's not just like her humor and delivery. Like, right off the bat, I was like, you get to do whatever you want.

Like just take what I write and put your sauce on it. But there's another thing that she does. And I would notice this when we're shooting. she somehow naturally just knows where the camera is. And, like, we'll do a move or just fill the space up in a way that I've rarely seen. Or she'll do something like pop her hat as the Cowboys riding by or, like, just, like, something physical that I just, like, was pretty in awe of, like, watching her do that.

And, you know, it's funny. We're, like, at the TCA is getting interviewed about the show. And there was a journalist that was like, Paulina, this question's for you. Where did you get your comedic timing? Did you train for? How good are you? And she's just like, my wife, it's like, your comedic timing.

And she was like, and we're like, how are you so funny? She was like, oh, my dad's funny. My brothers are funny. My uncle's funny. You know, it's just like, it's so natural. It's so natural to her. And we just found, you know, I was like with our casting director, Ashley met there.

And we found these kids. And, you know, like, the kid, land, you know, like, one of the pleasures is watching him grow, you know? And, like, at first, because he was so young and he'd never acted before, I mean, like, his mom promised him, like, a hamburger if he would audition. And, like, he wasn't even going to audition. And, like, his mom just made him take an acting class to, like, get him out of the house because he's playing video games too much. And so he, like, begrudgingly goes and auditions. And, you know, so at first, I was afraid to give him too much. So that's why in the pilot, you kind of see him accent.

things and kind of, you know, filling in some gaps and stuff. But like, then when I was writing the big Dear Lady episode, it was like, it was going to be him and another character because I was afraid that he couldn't handle, pull the weight, you know, and handle it with just him on. So there was another character to bounce off of. And in the end, it felt fake because it felt like I was writing it for those reasons. and it felt like he disappeared in it. So I just like really just kind of dove off the cliff.

I was like, all right, I'm going to give him this whole thing and I'll just work with him. And to see how serious he took it and how good he was and like, you know, I was not after like a couple of texts, I was like, oh my God, like he's got it, you know. That like I was just so impressed to watch him and how he grew during the show. And then, you know, he gets cast in Spielberg's like next film. Oh, no shit, really? Yeah, he's like one of, it's like one of, it's. sort of the one that's based on his childhood.

Yeah, yeah. He plays one of the Spielberg's childhood friends. Like, just Catherine. I guess he's working with Silverberg now, you know? That's pretty cool that you grow up watching things like Spielberg movies. And now he's checked out your show and taking ideas and actors. I know. That's exciting.

Like, it's funny. Like, you know, I think, I don't know, there's something about those films. I mean, like, look, like I, I, if you. you see my other films, they're darker. You know, like they're, they're darker. I mean, like, and one's a thriller and there's a lot about death. But there was always humor in them. But with this show, it was more of a shout out to that type of cinema, like Spielberg

and, and, you know, like that 80s and 90s stuff that was like, I don't know, there's something, I feel something very nostalgic about it and I feel that way in the show, you know, it's like, and, you know, Friday, I always love Friday. Friday, you know, it's like when you're talking about South Central LA, it's always sort of framed in this way that is like super dangerous and, you know, and there's probably aspects of it that are, but also it's a community. And the way that they present that in Friday, you know, it's a comedy, right? And like, you have to present it in a way that it is. And it's a celebration of this community and survival. And I remember like that was a big reference whenever we were looking at

the neighborhood and homes. Because I think in a lot of like stories, about Native people, there's the tendency to try to like, I don't know, it's like just this poverty porn where it's like, oh, let's look at all poor everyone else. It's like, that's not how it is. Like there might be one person with shit in their yard, but like next door there's going to be someone that plants flowers and keeps it very clean, you know, like it's not, it's not like, you know, it's, it's, I don't know. And so I would reference that neighborhood and the pastels and the colors of those homes in Friday, whenever we were talking about the design and how to design these home. And yeah, I mean, I just think like, you know, and also I think like giving homage to

those films and that type of cinema was not expected. You know, it felt new to me. You know, the flip of what Andy's asking about some of the casting choices you made, I guess you could also be said because you saw, I don't know if it's like pathos or whatever, but like, you know, Bobby Lee and Bill Burr and like I saw you on Tiger Belly. That was really cool. And I thought you found like a side of Bobby that if you watch the pod, if you watch Tiger Bell, you kind of see this bedraggled kind of, you know, like guys going through it.

But maybe if you saw his comedy or if you saw him on Matt TV, you wouldn't know that he is like that. And I thought for that him and for Burr, you found like these very like note perfect rules that brought out parts of their personality that maybe most people don't get to see. Right. Yeah. I mean like, you know, and those are, you know,

and they're based on real people and lot and things that I grew up seeing and we all grew up seeing but like um there was always this doctor who would be you know from another country and just be kind of there at the ending clinic and I was like I was just like man how did you end up here like how did you end up at the Indian clinic you know and then there's like you know I mean like Bill Burr's character is based on my coaches you know like um that whole Chilogyi toilet thing is something that I directly said to my linebacker coach and my oligy teacher where I would call him that.

I told him that I meant Great White Warrior. And one day he wrote a word down and went and asked my dad, who also worked at the school. And, you know, found out that I've been calling him toilet the whole time. And so it was like, but like, you know, there's these relationships with these coaches because those are your mentors in these rural areas. And it's like they can make a big difference.

And like he does with the Laura, it's like they can like connect with you in a way that other people can because I don't know, like I think kids that are athletic. kind of grow up and this like I don't know you it's such a physical I mean like rural areas like that's how people get out it's it's also like

your past time I mean sports are big and so like coaches can loom large in your life and you can I think they can make a difference of people's lives and you know it's great like Bill Bird wanted to do his wanted to do and he's working on an okay accent he'd call me and like kind of give it to me

like that sounds great man and then he also modeled his look after the great oh you coach, Barry Switzer. He's like, I'm like a very Switzer look, you know. It's like, all right, that's great, man. When we get the sense from watching the show and then hearing you talk about it,

it feels like the filming, especially in the production. I mean, even if it was happening during COVID, felt comfortable and familial. You know, you filmed the show in Oklahoma. You brought in people that you'd work with before, people that you knew. And, you know, you're, You're kind of in a bubble in a lot of different senses of making this show.

Then it goes wide. And now it's out there. And I guess I'm curious what has been the most gratifying in terms of response and what has been the most surprising. And I wonder if any of those things are connected to all of you guys, you know, with massive glowups at the Emmys last week looking fabulous. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, like, you know, JJ Abrams came by our table and talked about how much he was going to show. You know, like, I'm an independent filmmaker used to know. No one seeing, you know, 100 people seeing my stuff at a couple film festivals or whatever.

And to watch it blow up like it did is like, I don't know, man. I mean, like, it blows your hair back a little bit and buckles you. And it's like, what? Like, you feel good. You also, there's also like this exposure that you didn't ever look for, you know? And all of a sudden, you know, I have reporters like, and like college professors. somehow getting my number and like trying to get interviews or like have become speak at there's like literally like at their school and it's like it's just got to be a better process than just

getting my phone number for someone like um it's been good but we're all not used to it because we're all been in this industry that felt like we were always going to be clawing at the walls you know and trying to get in and we've been talking and having meetings and panels and discussions about how how do we represent ourselves? How do we get into this industry more? How do we have more stories of ours on screen? I mean, it's been years of that, you know, 20 years of that. You know, I've been doing that. And to finally it happening, like, it's a really like shock to the system, but also it's wonderful, but also like, it's beautiful. And I mean, honestly, my favorite thing has been Native people,

writing and feeling ownership over it. All of a sudden, these kids have something to be proud of, and we've never seen ourselves on screen like this. To have kids see kids doing kids stuff, but also dealing with tragedy and darkness that we all deal with. And suicide's a big issue in our communities. And sometimes conversations about it are only happening amongst adults in conferences with the door closed.

And to be able to tell kids that it's okay, like, you know, we have friends that, you know, Daniel's based on a lot of people that we know. You know, we all know at least one, you know, and like, you watch how it ripples through people's lives and communities. And it's like, you know, all these kids have one and or at least one. And so to be able to show them something and show them kids dealing with it in an honest way and still being themselves and still moving through their lives and still picking up the pieces. I mean, that's been the most powerful thing. And then you see like fan art, you know, I mean, like that's connected to that.

And I mean, I literally get messages all the time from, I had to quit checking my messages. I can't. Like, I can't. You know, I just can't read them anymore. But I get messages all the time of people thanking me. because they lost someone in this way. And, you know, that's the most gratifying thing for me, you know. I think it's amazing what you just said,

because it does make you think about the show that we just watched and how for all, especially for the kids in the show. They have, you know, they have joy and humor and boredom and kids stuff like at their fingertips, but they also have access to tears and pain and trauma. And, you know, neither side, neither side gets preference. over the other in their lives, both are present, you know, and that's just day-to-day episode to episode, and that's in and of itself, that's very powerful.

Right. And, you know, I always love shows that respect kids in a way that, like, let them be kids, but also can show them dealing with tragedy in a way that's, like, not a way that are adult with, you know, it's like, we just deal. I think people of different ages deal with stuff differently. I always, that's why, like, you know, I think Leon's kind of a big kid, too. So to see him and Willie Jack kind of bond in this way over their over Daniel. I don't know. Like I wanted to show that. I wanted to show like a good dad, you know.

And like, I don't know. Like, and and also the kids deliver on those emotions. I mean, like, just the acting and like, you know, Devery Jacobs. I mean, you know, that was tough, like doing all of that stuff in her, the Bill Burr episode where she had. to sell the fact that she found him. And but I've known her for a long time and I've known her as a really good actor and like she's not had the opportunity as well as much.

You know, just like everyone in the show, all they needed was the opportunity. You know, it's not like, they've just been there. Like no one just gave them the opportunity. I wondered, and this, you know, we can wrap up here, but I, you spoke before about the mixed, the mixed emotions of the reception and the success. And I kind of wondered what this felt like for you

because for me and for Chris and for others, you know, it's so exciting to watch your show because it's like, oh my God, you know, they have a, they, I don't want to use an oil metaphor to someone in Oklahoma, but like, you know, but like you hit a gus. Like there's endless amounts of story here and pathos and perspective and things that, you know, we don't see on our screens or in our lives where we live. And then the flip side of it is these are stories from your life. These are people you know. And as you said, you've been trying to tell them. And, you know, everyone associated with the show has been trying to tell them and people haven't been listening. Right. I mean, that's the thing is like, over the years I've always known that if we got the shot to do what we could do, because I mean, we're in these communities and we're hearing these stories, and that's all we do is to tell stories. And it's like such a storytelling culture. And there's so many amazing stories. And after a while, you just think like, well, they don't want to hear them.

Like, they just don't want to hear them. But then you realize now, like I realize now, they just didn't know what we had. Like no one had had the opportunity to say, hey, look what we can do. Like, look, like, look where this stuff goes. You know, like, it's like, look how far and wide it goes and weird it can go, you know, and surreal it can go. It's like, and none of, what's funny is like none of the writers in season two or season one,

look at season one of Reservation Dogs and think, wow, I don't know what this world is. None of them. They're all just like, this is totally stories from home, you know? Like, there's so many more. And it's totally tracks as the truth. You know, and I think that that's exciting and fun to see, like, where can we go? You know, we can go crazier, you know? We're so excited.

See where it goes. Well, thank you all for your support, man. It's been great. Yeah, man. Thank you so much for joining us. Wait, Chris, I'm sorry. I got to step over you. You heard me say it, maybe, Sterling.

Is shit ass a thing? Is that a thing? It is definitely is a thing. And, like, you know, it actually came from Zon. But it is a regional thing. And I've heard other people talk about how much it was said when they were children. Like, I hadn't heard this. My grandma called me that.

You know, like, I heard a lot of that. And so I don't know how far it reaches, but like, uh, it reaches as far as Matt Saracen's grandmother. That's how far it reaches. Right. So it's a regional. Because here I am thinking it's like it's the limits of our imagination. I'm like, we've reached the limits of cursing.

We're done. There are no more presentation. It's so great though. It's such a great like, it started with Zon, throwing it in one time. And I just started adding it and adding it. And like, any time that we could get it, it was like, we even had a game that we played that my friend started on the crew that was like,

that my girlfriend started on the crew that was called shit ass. And it was like, when we were shooting, we would write shit ass on a piece of tape. And while people weren't looking, it was like this game. They're just like, so not only is it stressful making a TV show, but it's like, let's bump the stress up even more. You might have a shit ass sticker on your back. It was just like the best, you know, but like seeing everyone say that in the show, it's just like cracks me. I mean, like, what's funny is like everyone has that experience.

It was like, oh, yeah, my grandma said that or my uncle. Yeah. And so all of them say it, like they've been saying it for years because they've heard it so much. It's great. Even though, you know, the old white couple in the beginning of, uh, where they hit the deer, it's like, you know, she's, well, you quit being a shit ass. She says that's so smooth. It's great. It's the beauty of the show, man.

We're so grateful for the show. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. Yeah, man. Really excited. What comes next. Good luck. Yeah. Good luck.

See you. We are produced as always by Kaii McMullen. Thank you for listening to The Watch. We'll be back with you on Thursday.