The Watch - The Summer TV Awards | The Watch (Ep. 287)

Episode Date: September 6, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Alison Herman highlight and award the best TV shows, scenes, episodes, and performances of the summer and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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They're really, like, kind of dope to go work out in or go out to dinner and you can kind of make them work for whatever. For 20% off your first order, visit macwellden.com and enter the promo code watch at checkout. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am editor at The Ringer.com. And today in the studio, I am joined by some of my Ringer colleagues, Alice and Herman.

Honored to be here. Sean Fennessey. What's up? I'm Anthony Mason to your Patrick Ewing and John Starks. Let's go. Allison seems befuddled by your 90s, New York, Nick's reference. I'll Google. I'll do some Googling.

I'm just setting hard picks for you guys. I have Allison and Sean joining me here today to do Summer TV Awards. We were recording this on the very last day of August before Labor Day weekend. So forgive us. This is running next Thursday. Forgive us if the greatest episode of television

somehow airs in the next six days. I'm sure we'll get to it at some point. But this has been a great summer for TV, I think. We kind of cut our teeth, I think, collectively at various points at a time when summer Sundays were kind of like a Super Bowl, eight to 12 times in the summer, whether you had Thrones or whatever you're talking about being this kind of really great season to counter program against what we're typically thinking of like the network season from fall to spring, but HBO

and AMC and different shows really took advantage of having attention there and virgining websites there to cover it. And the burgeoning websites were hungry for content. Are you talking about the athletic? Like what could what versioning websites? I think Vulture and Grantland and us and like

as time went on. But I think that summer is actually in a lot of ways high season for TV. I see your eye. I think it's deceptive. almost. Like when I was first given the assignment by you to start thinking about summer TV, I was like, I don't know. Like what awards are there to give? It's been kind of a slow season. And then I think like a lot of TV, once I actually sat down and started listing things, I was like,

oh, there was a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, so to just set out the parameters, we're going to be a little bit fluid with our definition of summer. I think if the show was airing in May to September, I think we can consider it summer TV, although a lot of stuff started in March or started in, you know, early April that we, we were kind of pushing towards this. I want to start off. Just getting your guys' thoughts about, like, how you felt about television over the last couple of months. I mean, it's just whether you find yourself being particularly stimulated, where you think

we're in a wall, whether you, we'll start with you, Allison, because I think you're watching the most of all of us. Probably. I think that's fair. Definitely fair. I mean, I say this is someone who has started my official, like, scaling the screener mountain of fall. I still think summer is a relatively downtime just because you don't have the broadcast networks dumping like truckloads of content on us at all times. But in a way,

it's roomier, it's breathier. And one thing I think networks did a great job of, particularly with the high summer shows, is picking stuff that really fit the vibe of the season. I think we'll talk about this later, but Lodge 49 and Sharp Objects really stand out to me as like, very summer programming. I would not want to watch those shows in February. I'm very glad I was not asked to watch those shows in February. And we kind of got them and they got some space. Yeah.

And Sean, as somebody who obviously spends a lot of his cultural time watching movies in movie theaters in the dark, I feel like TV is probably a little bit more of an amuse bush for you or whatever. It's like a little bit. Or no, like a pair of teeth, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And you have stuff that you'll get to. But I noticed that you had shows this year and talking to you that you were just like, this just makes me feel good. Yeah, I think, so this has been really the summer of Quantico Season 3 for me. That's not true. Priyanka Jonas.

I think I'm fortunate enough that I don't have to watch the same amount of shows that Allison has to watch. And so I get to pick and choose what I want. It's unlikely for me to stick with something if I find that it's not clicking within three episodes unless it's succession, which I'm sure we will talk about at length. I get to just watch the best of the best. and I also feel comfortable coming and late on things. And I'm sure you guys will list some shows that I didn't get to until six weeks or eight weeks into the run, and I don't have as much anxiety about that.

Also, if I know someone is making a show who I love, it's easy for me to just jump right on board because I'm not managing 12 shows at any time. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, why don't we just get right into the awards? I think it's the best way to kind of break down the summer. And I don't want to... I think one of the things that really jumped out at me,

the amount of nominees I was able to think of that you guys were able to think of for the best performance category was we really had an embarrassment of riches of really good performances going on so far this summer. Allison, why don't you talk to me a little bit about Bill Hayter? So being a little strategic here in that I'm hoping to use my massive influence with the voting body of the television academy to really stump for him in his Emmy race. You're like the Beto O'Rourke here. You're like just doing straight word of mouth going right to the people. No, this is like James Carville, you know. This is electioneering.

She's behind the scenes. Yeah, it's true. I'm just dictating. I'm running the playbook. But, you know, this is very much in the loose definition of summer TV. I think most would probably categorize Barry as a spring show. But I just think this performance was so incredible that I really had to dedicate some time to it. I don't think anyone is surprised that Bill Hader is a talented actor and performer.

I think, you know, people were a little more taken aback by the fact that he directed the first few episodes, although, interestingly, is Hollywood. Hollywood stories that he came here to be a filmmaker and then just discovered that he's the best comic actor of the decade. Yes. Yeah, maybe I'll discover my side talent someday in such a haphazard manner. But I think what people weren't a little bit surprised by in terms of his actual lead performance is it's a very low-key one. It's a very sad one.

It's not a very over-the-top one. And it's also kind of reminiscent of Donald Glover's lead performance in Atlanta. It's a very generous one. And like Sarah Goldberg gets a lot of room to do her thing. Henry Winkler gets a lot of room. Anthony Kerrigan, who I think was the supporting breakout of the show, gets a lot of room. But it's all anchored by Hater playing this traumatized war veteran who becomes a hitman, who then becomes an aspiring actor. And I think when a lot of people heard the premise of the show, they just assumed it would be like crazy hijinks for laughs.

And it turned out to take Barry's arc of trying to redeem himself. extremely seriously. And Hater really delivered on that. Yeah, I mean, you could say best performance for Hater is almost like a, he gets the Orson Welles Award for doing directing and acting. What did you think of Barry, Sean? Yeah, I was in love with it. I think we covered it in the spirit of how I felt about it.

It also was, this is going to be kind of like an unfortunate thing to say, but it was like very cinematic. And he's obviously, Bill Hater's obsessed with movies. The way that that story is told is very movie-esque. It's also, you know, you said he's one of the, of the best comic performers. He's not terribly funny at all in this role, but he lets everybody else be funny. You know, that generosity that you were talking about is he's really just kind of setting people up the same way that he did for years on SNL. And then if he has to have a moment or

he has to have an emotional meltdown, he'll get in there. But yeah, it's just a brilliant show. And I feel like we waited three or four years after SNL for Bill Hader to finally find the thing that was his thing. You know, he started in train wreck and he does documentary now and he has all he's done things, but it was nice for him to have something that was his. Yeah, absolutely. It's a big summer for that. I mean, we don't need to go into super detail about it, but Sandra O. in Killing Eve, I feel like it was in a very similar position, and that she really took

her time after Grey's Anatomy to find her next signature role. And that show, like Barry does with Bill Hater, I think really deserves her. There's a bunch of people I want to shout out, but I kind of wanted to mention just because she's just said, Killing Eve, I'm going to give my award to Jody Comer for killing Eve. and it's kind of a traditionalist reason, which is that TV used to really be a great star minting factory. You know, this was a place where you would see people for the first time, and then they may go on to movies.

Now, there was in the 80s and 90s, and even through the early 2000s, I think a little bit more of a difficulty for, quote-unquote, TV stars to make it in movies. But often, you know, if you look back on people's IMDBs, they have, like, they've appeared in, you know, Law and Order or they've appeared in a... Tenzel was on St. Elsewhere.

Sure, absolutely. Now I think it's a little bit where movie stars are obviously going to TV to like an Amy Adams, but then there's also like Jody Comer, just like Vanessa Kirby was on the Crown and then was a Mission Impossible Fallout and I think we'll be in the movies for the next

20 years probably. Jody Comer is just going to be a star. You could kind of kind of tell that and as killing Eve developed over the course of a season where it started out and I felt like it was very much told from Sandra O's perspective and her on the hunt for this elusive killer. And then I think a lot of the second half of the season,

as you learn more about Villanelle and the character and her assassin character, it becomes pretty much a showcase for her and she can kind of do anything. I really would not be surprised at seeing her in any kind of performance next based on what I saw her doing and killing Eve. And it's really exciting that they're going to keep going with this show. And it's such a great pairing of performances, right? Because Sandra O is like the veteran who maybe hasn't quite gotten, you know, Grace Anatomy, I'm sure it was very great for her pocketbook,

and she did get good performances and Emmy nominations, but this feels like a really great summit of someone who finally get something they deserve. And then Jody Comer is the coming out of nowhere breakout who's young and really proving herself. And I think the combination makes it this incredible acting showcase as a series. Yeah, absolutely.

My best performance of the year is Jody Comer outside of a hotel in Midtown Manhattan when I saw her over the summer. And she was one of those sort of time lapse photographs where everybody around her was moving and she was completely still, but no one could see that it was Villanelle in the middle of the street

in Midtown, New York. Great moment for me. She also may have created the meme of the summer with Take Me to the Hole. I just feel like there's like, I'm going to use that a lot when guys that go inside

and basketball games, like, take me to the hole. It's good stuff. What when you do meme work? Thanks, man. Quick, like secondary nominations or somebody you don't want to let go by without shouting out.

Betty Gilpin's performance in Glow is so good. Also, Betty Gilpin's performance outside of Glow is really good. I highly recommend listening to any podcast interview that you can get your hands on with her. She is just an incredible, like, find as a public persona. Okay. Because I don't think people had really heard of her before this show. Betty Gilpin, come on desktop. She's very direct.

I really not afraid to say what she thinks. She's this, like, incredibly vivid imagery that you wouldn't even necessarily guess, like, from the show. But, yeah, I mean, Glow is a show. that I think, as you guys have discussed on the show before, really took the leap. And a lot of that has to do with her character getting to be, like, in the first season, she's pretty objectively like the wrong woman. Ruth does something really shitty to her in the sense of sleeping with her husband. And in this season, she gets to, like, be a brat and be mean and not be like a super uncomplicated hero. And that both fits with the themes of the show really well, but was just a great performance for her. And I'm also, Television Academy voters, if you are listening. She was kind of the surprise nomination out of that cast, and I'm so happy for her. Any other performances you want to shout out before we move on? I think we all love.

Is it Re Reyes Seah? Ray Seahorn. This has been a topic of much conversation. I've investigated her own Twitter account where she answers this question very, very politely, every time somebody asks. Ray Seahorn, of course, plays Kim Waxler and Better Call Saul. That's my favorite show. That's my favorite character on the show. You guys talked about this on the show.

I think this week about episode three and her performance in episode three and how tightly wound she is and what she's searching for. And that show has been criticized, I think, for having this sort of dual track being Mike's story and Jimmy's story. And sometimes they cross over, but for the most part they don't. And when they force them to cross over, it feels unnatural. But Kim's story is the story that I'm most invested in maybe because I know that she's not a part of the show that came before this. And so there's the most unexplored territory there. So she's also just a fascinating, brilliant, captivating actress, who I think was basically a sitcom actress prior to this.

Yeah, she was on Whitney. You know, just one of my favorite characters. Lindsay's all enjoyed about her character earlier this year for the site. I'm just a huge fan of hers. Shout out to the supporting players of that supporting performance, her earrings and her ponytail. And I would even say at this point, her arm sling and the, like, the different makeup they're doing as her bruises fade on her face.

like you, one of the things that really jumped out at me about that scene in episode four between her and Jimmy in the bathroom was the fact that she's acting almost entirely with her eyes because everything else is kind of restricted by this sling and her, her business suit and her ponytail, like all of this stuff, but like in her eyes, you can kind of just see her being like, oh shit, this guy's gone, man. Okay, let's move on to the biggest surprise of the summer. And this can be taken in a bunch of different ways. It could be pleasant surprise.

It could be, I didn't know they made them like this anymore, surprise. or it could be, I didn't know that people would watch this show, surprise. So let's start with you, Allison. My pick honestly fits basically every single one of those categories, which would be the multimedia artist Terrence Dance was given a late-night show, I guess you would call it, on HBO, called Random Acts of Flyness.

I was honestly not very familiar with his work. Prior to this, I interviewed him and watched a lot of it for research. And he's, shall we say, like not the usual person. that you would pull out of the talent pool to get a half hour on HBO. He obviously has not worked in TV before, and he makes stuff that is weird and challenging and much more in the world of fine art than even conventional filmmaking. He had a feature that was really big in Sundance in 2012.

I think it's called an oversimplification of her beauty. It's really good. But, again, just not who you would expect to get a series on HBO, which is entirely to its benefit, I would say. It's a very, I would say like a sketch show is probably the most analogous structure. Like there are a few like three to eight minute clips that you could pull out. But it's really this like kaleidoscopic. There are a lot of rapid cuts.

There's not really particular characters. It's generally on the theme of race in America, but always in very oblique and creative ways. And this was not something that was on my radar before the summer, but it was renewed for a second season, which again surprised me. and I'm really looking forward to that show really growing into itself. Would you recommend his film to people? An oversimplification of her beauty is fascinating. It definitely has a clear relationship to this show, too. He really collides styles, formats, tone.

He's not very interested in linear storytelling. He does create characters in his universe that he kind of returns to. He's really like a one-of-one talent. I also really like the show just as a part of that lineage of really weird, like Friday night HBO programming. It has nothing to do with Mr. Show or Tenacious D or any of those shows. But HBO has this great tradition of taking a chance on people at like 11 p.m. on Fridays and letting them do stuff. And then those people eventually go on to great fame and success.

It would not surprise me at all if Terrence Nance was a really big deal in like five or six years. Sean, what would your big surprise be? My big surprise is Cobra Kai. Did you guys watch Cobra Kai? I watched the first episode. I'm just going to cop to it. I totally didn't watch. It's a safe space on the watch

I'm well outside of the Target demo and I have a lot of other TV to watch That's fine You know I wouldn't say I'm necessarily in the Target demo Like I certainly grew up with the karate kid And I am aware of that And Ralph Machio is my Long Island brother And I'm a fan

I guess of the Crotid Kid in so much as you can be As a man in his mid-30s But I don't think I really care I was not interested in Cobra Kai And if it was bad I would have never checked it out But it got enough recommendations from enough kinds of people. That includes both sort of high-minded TV critics

and also Shea and Bill and all the people that work at the site. And it is this interesting fusion of pop network TV, weird IP glorification, and it's kind of a new kind of TV show. It actually takes itself more seriously than the karate kid movies do.

Oh, absolutely. Which is what works about it, I think. It's kind of strange that it's using what is fundamentally like a bunch of silly movies about a teenager trying to overcome, like, bullies, into something that is a little bit more about, like, aging and grappling with your own identity and trying to figure out what your place in the world is.

So, Cobra Chi is my surprise. I'm going to say that I am surprised that Yellowstone is the most popular show of the summer, the most popular show on cable right now, I think, right? That does not surprise me at all. Well, I think that Paramount Network, which is basically positioning itself as, did you like Lonesome Dove?

Did you like the shows that you kind of the miniseries and the shows that you grew up on network television? And maybe even did you like Deadwood or Rome or something like that? But, you know, essentially appealing to people who probably feel like I just wasn't made for these times and I just want a mini series that's kind of either ripped from the headlines or transports me and maybe challenges me a little bit but is ultimately like escapism.

And they did Waco, obviously, and they've tried a couple of other things. But Yellowstone was their big bet, and it paid off in a big way. It's Taylor Sheridan's Western, Modern Day Western, starring Kevin Costner. And I know, I've watched the pilot, and I'm going to keep watching it because I want to talk a little bit more about it as we kind of trying to forensically understand it a little bit more. But I don't know that there's necessarily anything like, wow, here's the thing that they're doing that really is mind-blowing. It's essentially a horseback soap opera set in like a really beautiful place with pretty good actors who and they didn't spare any expenses. It looks really good. I mean, I think the secret sauce is the demographics they're appealing to, which is like the only demographic that still watches linear television.

I mean, it's not an exact overlap with CBS, but I don't think it's a surprise if you watch the show that a lot of people who are going to be drawn to it are going to be rural, they're going to be older, they're going to be male. And that's very smart on Paramount's part, especially because Taylor Sheridan makes very popular stuff. I think Hell or Highwater was definitely a box office success. I don't know about Wind River. I mean, in an economy of scale, yeah, because those movies cost $8 million to make, and they make $30, and then all of a sudden you have a hit. Yeah. This costs a lot more than $8 million to make, but it's also if you're a network like Paramount.

And I think Waco did decently for them, but it wasn't quite the flag planting that they wanted. And this is very much like in that vein, so they're not starting from Scaramount. scratch, but like it really broke through in the way that they wanted. I'll always have my imitation of Taylor Kitch doing David Koresh, but that's the only thing I'm really going to take. Go, come on. Do it. Gary! See you're Gary? That's very good.

Thanks, man. I think what you're saying is right. It's Hatfields and McCoys. It's like Longmeyer. It's like there's a kind of television show that is for men in their 50s, and this is just such an obvious natural thing. And who better to be the star of a show for? for men in their 50s and Kevin Costner. Yeah, and honestly, like, I'm in my 40s, and I like westerns. You are? Yeah. And I'm in my 40s and I like westerns, and I could imagine that if I was in my 50s,

and I saw something like, Godless, I might be like, this is a little dense. You know, like, what I really want is like this sort of more, like a more... A show not starring women. No, I knew that it was going to happen. Godless didn't really start women, which was kind of the problem. But we can talk about that another time. Yellowstone is one of the surprise of the summer. Any other surprises of the summer you want to shout out before we move on?

Yeah. Making it the crafting show with Nick Offerman and Amy Poehler is delightful. And everyone should watch it. And that is really all I have to say. I think that it felt like a little bit of a network television life hack the way that who wants to be a millionaire used to be. Where it was like, this is the perfect time for a show like this. It's not the stakes are low. It's like an experiential reality game show style show, which is perfect for NBC on a Wednesday or Tuesday at 830.

PM and you know, Amy Polar and Nick Offerman, who has better chemistry than them, who's more delightful than them. It's a very fun show. This actually speaks to one of the things I was kind of alluding to in my opening preamble about the whole summer was that I did appreciate the multiplicity of experiences you could have this summer. There was stuff to binge. There were stuff that was stuff that was appointment television. There were stuff that you could do the, like, let it pile up on the DVR and watch two or three of them because it's really comforting kind of thing. and that was, I appreciated that over the summer doing different kinds of television watching.

I know you probably are usually boxed in by screeners and stuff like that. But it was kind of fun to be like, there's a couple shows I want to watch once, like, on Sunday when it comes out, and then there's a couple that I'm just going to like let pile up and burn through as a kind of treat to myself. And making it is definitely like I'm being enveloped

in the warm and welcoming embrace of the show for 45 precious minutes of my week, and I'm going to meet it out because I need that. Yeah, you got to. You've got to have your serotonin hit. Do you want to use this as an opportunity to have a conversation about who is America? Let's have a Who's America conversation? Because I think that I'm in a room with two people who have maybe thought about it more than

anybody else I know. I mean, it was very literally a surprise in that Showtime did not announce it until a week before its premiere. And only, I think Sasha Baron Cohen only hinted he had a project of any kind in the offing, maybe two weeks before the premiere. I also went to a premiere screening in which we had to sign an NDA. be photographed holding the NDA like a hostage, relinquish our phones,

and then put up with security guards with night vision goggles, like patrolling the screening room. I mean, I really hoped one of them would like rip off a mask at some point, but the prosthetics were not obvious enough for me to call them out. And I feel like the show in some ways was obscured by those things in the run-up and then everything that was happening while it was airing, which was it obviously made a lot of news. I don't think it was necessarily.

considered as a TV show or as a piece of art. I think it was largely considered as this news funnel where people who you don't often see in vulnerable positions were put on TV and made to look like a fool or made to just stand there and not react. It was some like mutant variation on the watch John Oliver incinerate big pharma. But instead it was watch this Republican, or just this Republican has released a statement saying that they're going to be on

Sasha Baron Cohen's show and they didn't know and they're mad. It felt very rude. in that old school daily show Colbert Report thing where they got an interview with some congressman on the premise that they were a new show and then they were kind of gently clowning on them except Sasha Baron Cohen just ups the ante so much by being these outrageous characters.

And then also like you mentioned the oh, I'm going to be on Sasha Baron Cohen, please don't come after me for whatever embarrassing thing I said was this like shadow marketing campaign? Definitely. They crypto thanked Sarah Palin as like a outside marketing consultant for the show in the last episode of the show. She's literally in the credits as like a special thank you.

And she didn't like make the actual show. No, she got cut, yeah. I think maybe she, because she threatened a severe legal action if she was going to be a part of the show. So did you guys like this show? I think I also don't I disagree on it. I think liking it is almost besides the point. Like even when it, I do think it was occasionally like incredibly effective.

But by effective I meant like I left the theater on that. I left that screening, like, actually feeling sick to my stomach. Like, the most effective version of that show was where he successfully goaded politicians or political adjacent people kind of in power in that sphere into showing their true selves, which was just something as grotesque as asking to arm kindergartners. And I think that was when the show really worked, whereas when the show didn't work, it was just like Cohen doing a yelling in an accent while someone kind of looks nonplussed into the distance. Right. I think it was, for me, a sign that Sasha Baron Cohen hasn't changed, but obviously the country and what we expect of TV shows has changed. Because a lot of what is happening in this show, with the exception of a little bit of Nathan Fielder Pixie Dust, who was a producer on the show, is very similar to what was happening on the AlligeeG show. And on the OLLIG show, he interviewed Brent Scowcroft and Newt Gingrich and Donald Trump.

And he interviewed a number of very famous people and made an effort to make them look like fools. And some people came out looking like fools or hypocrites or what have you. And some people were bemused and then just walked off the set and were able to maintain their dignity. Either way, there was this incredible novelty to what he was doing. And also his ability, I think, to stay in character. I always thought was such a cool, performative act. I still feel that way and I still really like what Sasha Baron Cohen does

but it's been so fascinating to see you've written about this a couple of times Allison I've seen people like Emily Nussbaum mentioned this too. It's sort of like what did this show accomplish? Yeah. It's a new bar for a comedy show which I understand why people have that reaction because we're in

such a ghoulish time and everybody's so freaked out all the time for very understandable reasons but my expectation for a show like that is never to go in and say what will this give the world? It's more like, what will this give me as a viewer? Well, he literally called the show Who is America, which I think sets a pretty high bar. And I guess I'm not really asking, like, what it accomplished, although we should note he did, like, get a Georgia state senator to resign because he screamed the N-word while on screen, although I'm pretty sure the nudity had more to do with that than the racial slur.

Yeah. I think what I was mostly looking for was something that evoked an emotional response in me as a viewer as powerful as that first episode. Like, I didn't go out of it thinking, like, oh, Sasha Baron Cohen has, you know, is going to undo the gun lobby in America. I just felt, like, profoundly moved in this way that, you know, maybe you're not necessarily expecting from a comedy show, but I think testifies to its power as art. And then in the less effective segments, I wasn't laughing and I wasn't feeling anything. I was just like, I'm just watching a dude try really hard to eke something out of people and it's not really working. And what he's doing is very hard and it's very ambitious. don't fault him for not getting anything out of his subjects all the time. But, you know, I don't

think the standard I and other critics are holding it to is not necessarily did like Sasha Baron Cohen tear down the power structure. Right. Right. I get it. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And when we come back, we'll talk about the show of the summer, the best episode, best moment, and some more categories. Today's episode of the watch, it's brought to you by the big homies at Hotel Tonight. If you love to score amazing deals at incredible hotels, you'll love Hotel Tonight. Hotel Tonight partners with hotels to help them sell their unsold rooms helping you find sweet deals at cool top-rated hotels. Hotel Tonight shows you the best deals at hotels you actually want to stay at, no more scrolling through endless lists of choices. And even though their name is Hotel

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Enjoy free shipping every fourth order free with subscription. Visit Gillette Online at Gillette-on-demand.com. Get started. Back to the watch. All right, guys, we're back. Let's just go straight to this. Let's do show of the summer, which I specifically did not call

Best Show of the Summer. Because, you know, that's fluid. But I think we could probably at least make an argument about what was the show that captured the summer somehow. I also think it's probably because we have divided opinions about the shows that we are inevitably going to talk about. I'm sure that's the case.

I will start with the controversial pick, at least in the ringer offices. I think Sharp Objects was the show of the summer, not because everyone liked it, especially among the people I'm sitting with at this table. I've actually warmed to this show. That's wonderful to hear. I look forward to hearing why. Have not warmed. Not warm at all. Not looking forward to hearing why, but I'm truly warm.

But I think Sharp Objects was the show of the summer because whether people liked it and whether people didn't like it, they felt like they were supposed to watch it. And for the most part, they did. and that is so incredibly rare in this unbelievably fragmented TV landscape. I think just obviously that's the natural consequence of getting Amy Adam, Jean-Marc Valais, Patricia Clarkson and Jillian Flynn and Marty Knoxon in a room together. But, like, I do think it successfully held people's attention for good or for bad for the entirety of its run, which is not necessarily true for really any other show I can think of. I think actually

Allison and Andy and I talked about this your piece made me feel differently about the show and the idea of looking at it more as an atmosphere or as a vibe or as a mood rather than a story or really anything that was like connecting with me emotionally and once I sort of gave myself

over to you know there's just going to be a lot of ceiling fans and roller skating and smoking in the heat and guys getting straight razor shaves and stuff like that. I kind of like let it wash over me rather than got too deeply involved in like the trauma or the mystery of it. So I enjoyed it despite my problems with it, which is actually something I'm constantly asking people to do with the shows that I like. So I'm glad I was able to

do that. Sean, you didn't ever really come around on. I can't give it a definitive pain. I only watched three episodes. It is a perfect example of the kind of show I was mentioning earlier, which is like I knew it wasn't for me and so I got out and it was okay and I feel fine about it. and I loved reading about what actually happened on the show without having to watch it. There was something satisfying about getting to the bottom of that mystery without the investment of time. I feel like Kate Nibs is infecting your brain where you're just like, I just want to read spoilers now. I never used to be that person and things are changing. But I agree with Chris that your piece was very persuasive and it was persuasive for me for Lodge 49, not for the show.

And Lodge 49 is a show that I'm not really invested in the story at all. I don't really care about the story of that show in any significant way, but I like to be around that show. And I like to be second screening while that show's on. And I like the music, and I like the pacing, and the way that the dialogue is written, and the way that it looks. And there's something ephemeral about the experience of watching Lodge 49, which is probably pretty natural as I'm a bro,

and Sharp Objects is maybe not the most bro-centric show of all time. But I think that I can admire when something is well-made, and there was a part of me that felt like this was Jean-Marc Valet doing the greatest hits, not really bringing something new to his style. It was Amy Adams very good, but sort of, we didn't get enough of Amy Adams, oddly. I thought that that character was so because of a lot of the things that she was faced with, at least in the early episodes, a little one note. And the mystery just never ensnared me.

Yeah. I thought that, you know, it was interesting because you were talking about making it, and you were talking about, like, keeping that 45 minutes that brings you pleasure. And I thought, Sharp Objects is this oddly pleasurable show aesthetically until the really grotesque moments of personal horror come out. You know, until either whether it's the emotional terrorism

or the physical trauma that these people are going through really come to the surface. And I think at first had a problem with that dissonance, the beauty of the show and the horror of the show. And then started to really enjoy it. Yeah. I mean, first of all, thank you so much for saying that about my piece. I'm so glad that, you know, I've had the power to persuade at least one person to get on this train with me.

I guess the only thing that I would really qualify in terms of how you framed it was I actually feel like I did get something emotionally out of the show. And it was more like I got my emotional payoff out of the vibe instead of the plot. That's interesting. I think the show does an incredibly good job of illustrating its themes of, for example, underneath the story. surface of this propriety-obsessed, beautiful small town is something really ugly. Like, that is very much expressed in how the show is presented to us as opposed to the whodunit. Yeah, like, Sean, you were mentioning, you know, this is Jean-Marc-Fillet's greatest hits,

and I do agree it's very much in the context of his style. It's very typical. But also, I feel like this material is a better fit for his style than most other things I've seen him do. I don't think big little lies, I think the schick really wore thin around the halfway point of the series, and this was like, this is a show about buried memory and how it always haunts you. And a very quick-cut, elliptical, dreamlike sensibility the way he has is, like, the perfect way to have the audience really, like, feel everything that Camille is going through.

Yeah, rather than having her articulate that all the time. I think it's also, you know, styles make fights, right? I'm not a Southern Gothic person. So immediately from the jump, like, this just isn't kind of a storytelling style that I'm interested in whereas big little lies. Yeah, he's only watched four episodes of Ozark too, so it's not like... It's precisely my point. It's certainly not gender.

Is OZARC a Southern Gothic? Is that what we're calling it? They're both shot in Georgia. I think it inspires to that. Yeah, right. I have no ill will against Sharp Objects. It is a classic case of just not for me. What was your show of the summer?

Succession, without question. Maybe HBO is the show of the summer. It's a good network. Is this where we can have the succession dog fight? Sure, but we could also save it for, imagine there will be some best episode recommendations for Succession. But we can do Succession. You want to give your notes first and then we can celebrate the episodes.

Sure, actually. And it is connected. So maybe this is a good transition. This has been a very pro-Succession podcast for several months. I am aware. I will say I am not anti-Succession. I think at the end of the first season, I would characterize it as a very good, very promising show that took two-thirds of its first season to figure itself out.

To be fair, that all of it. also describes probably my favorite show currently running, BoJack Horseman. So I'm actively excited for season two. I also don't think it really does the show any favors to pretend that the early issues did not have some really serious issues. In terms of, like, the people who make Succession pretending that, or the people who, like, stands like Sean and I saying, like, the show is great? Maybe both. I mean, I would prefer, I would certainly prefer if the people who made it recognize that they could maybe be. cut like 10 to 20 minutes off every single episode and I think the show would be a lot better for it. Are we still talking about Sharp Objects?

Every episode of Sharp Objects was 52 minutes or less, which is part of why I appreciated it. But, you know, Succession, I think, I came away from the first half of that season thinking I am very convinced I could have a very animated dinner party conversation with Jesse Armstrong about the evils of global capitalism. I don't know if I want to watch this TV show. Yes. And I think at the end, they started to figure it out. I think less strongly, but similarly to you about the early episodes. He had his viral tweet that was kind of like me during episodes one through three, me during four through six, me, and then seven.

I love when Greenwald goes viral. Isn't it the best? He's weirdly good at it. He's weirdly good at it. But he, you know, obviously was somebody who jumped in feet first around five or six, you know. And I think I like shitbags who are talking to each other about. money. You know, I kind of just have always enjoyed shows like or movies about that topic. I don't know why. It's not necessarily something I aspire to. Shidbacks talking about money is a really good spin-off pod for you.

Yeah, it's essentially just like take the boiler room monologue and make it a 50-minute show. That's not like a cool thing, but I found myself deeply moved by this show at various points. And I thought it was also a really incredible example of what happens when you cast. within the character rather than for the box office draw of the show. Because nobody knows who Sarah Snook and Jeremy Strong are. And they were amazing. And there was like you didn't go into it with all this. Like, well, that's Amy Adams.

That's Julian Julia. You know, you go into it with you're giving yourself over to this world and giving yourself over to these characters. And you don't actually have preconceived notions about what Kendall should be based on, well, he's been in this movie. and he's going to be in Captain America, so you've got to do this. It's not like that. It had this really surprising, organic feel to it. And even if I think sometimes people were like, oh, I think the message is just like capitalism is bad or these people are savages to one another.

But I found a lot of really, really, really beautiful drama within the different relationships on that show. Well, it loops back to what you were saying about Jody Comer, which is Succession is a really great advocate for, like, television as a starmenting machine. Sure. And they're all, I don't want to say, like, Jeremy Strong was a complete unknown, but you're right. Like, they, I think the performances were uniformly strong. I don't think the issue was really with them figuring out their characters.

I think it was with the show giving them an opportunity to showcase those characters. I think, you know, they sideline Logan for so much of the early episodes. Sarah Snook, her whole deal is that she has made a life outside the family or her character, she has made a life outside the family. And she gets gink back in, and she's sort of ambivalent about that. But when you first meet her, she's just in the fold of the family because they're having this crisis. So I think it was really a matter of the show, like figuring out the best way to develop these characters as distinct persona and give them the platform to really go at it, which is a great, you know, I think that my vote for Best episode really showcases that. Well, we'll get to that. So I think we're splitting show this summer between sharp objects and succession and the three of us all of killing Eve, which we've talked about ad nauseum on this show.

I want to talk a little bit about best episode. we can kind of burn through this a little bit more. And I'm just going to mention Castle Rock, the Queen. More because, you know, and Andy and I talked about this and had issues with it, but I want to tip my cap to them trying to make a best episode of the summer. You know, it was a very obvious takeout, like, this is Sissy SpaceX sizzle reel. Like, this is the award reel. And, like, you could tell that they were putting a lot of their creative eggs in the basket

of what this episode was going to do in terms of the world of the show. And it kind of worked to some extent. I think that was a show that a lot of people were pretty hype on, that a lot of people lost interest in in the first couple of episodes because of the plotting nature

of the way it was unfolding. And the sheer volume of information and characters, we had to kind of keep him play and the way it would kind of bend over backwards to be like, oh, it's Kujo in the backyard. But I think as it built forward, if you stuck with the show, this was a nice payoff for that.

And I also, I respect, after coming out of the best episodes list, I respect people who try to make a really well-rounded home run episode. Well, and it worked in the sense that I think the reviews when Castle Rock came out were pretty mixed. I think mine was pretty ambivalent for sure. And then all of a sudden, all at once, you just saw a bunch of people tweeting, like, okay, this week's episode of Castle Rock is really great. Like, even if you're not watching the show, you should drop in, which is exactly what they're angling for.

Yeah, and I think that if you did do that, you probably didn't hit as hard, but you can still appreciate it on a plot mechanics point. Fantasy, let's do best succession episode. So you have both Prague and Austerlitz written down here. I have Prague, and I think Allison was Oscillates. So I'd vote Austerlitz, too. Okay. I thought that that was an amazing, I think essentially the narrative of that show, the arc of that show, and you mentioned it a little bit with Greenwald's tweet is the first three episodes, people were like, this isn't good, and then four, five and six people were like, maybe this is really good, and it was seven. when I was like, this is one of the best shows I've seen in like two or three years. And I think it's because they removed us a little bit from the traditional setting,

you know, in that New Mexico journey and splitting the family and half. And also, it's one of those episodes of TV where characters finally start saying the things to each other that they've been leading up to. And when you have those tense family therapy sessions followed by Kendall's return where he becomes a wolf and then goes back to sort of the Roy clan altogether, and confronts his father, there's something very cathartic about that episode,

and it's still funny. And that's what I like about that show. It's that drama that you were talking about, Chris, which is, it gets very high level. It's very Shakespearean,

kingly are going on. And then additionally, it's just some of the sharpest, funniest, funniest, and so that collision of those two things is why I would pick Austerlitz.

Yeah, and in the arc of the season, I think it's important that it comes after this, like, crescendo of episode six, which basically resolves the initial conflict

of, like, who is going to succeed Logan after he's suffers this crisis, and it turns out the answer is Logan himself. And I think part of the problem is, like, succession plunged us right into this conflict before it taught us who the participants in that conflict are and what they want and how they're going to get it, et cetera. So I think it's really important that they close off that conflict and then immediately they do the work in Austerlitz of showing us not just who these people are, but how they interact with each other. Like, it's basically

an old school bottle episode. They all show up to this one far-flung location for family therapy, But then all of a sudden you get like all these people interacting with each other and enlightenment as to their relationships that you didn't necessarily get before. It's more of the genius things this show does is it has resisted the pairing off or the two separating the plot lines of these characters too significantly. There's always a lot of overlap. And you can kind of get the feeling like these people are only really capable of being in rooms with each other. because they're not fit for the regular society in some ways. I just love Prague. I thought it was the comic highlight of the season,

and I thought it was really a great showcase for Matthew McFadden and Nicholas Braun, who obviously were just so incredible during the course of the season. And I think Succession is always, like, even in the early episodes, I was capable of being like, oh, there are these really great comic moments. There are these really great, like, one-liners often coming from Matthew McFadden as Tom. And then Australitz and Prague were the first ones where I felt like, They've like channeled this, you know, occasional comic brilliance into like an infrastructure that enables like more of it and also like fits it a little more seamlessly with the overall vibe of the show. Absolutely.

All right. Those are best episodes. Guy. Ones you want to throw out there before we move on. I did recapables on billions compenso, which was the penultimate episode of Billions third season, third season. And I just think that show is amazing. That's all I want to say. Do you want to talk it all about billions?

in the shadow of succession? Yeah, what an interesting thing to have happened. Especially, like, what are the odds that two shows in the same year are going to have a scene featuring consuming Ortolan? I mean, that's just ridiculous that that happened. And feature Eric Begogian. And Becoge, that's true. I also tried, like, really hard to be fair to succession

and not compare it to a show that happened to have the same subject matter, and then that scene happened, and I was like, forget it. Do they have the same rich guy consultant who's, like, what these guys really like is Ordeon? I mean, I think that there is obviously something about getting access to a new kind of lifestyle that people, once they have that access, want to share. And they love to share it with people like TV creators.

You know, there's some entryway in there. I actually think in some respects, you have to compare the two, and in others they're totally different shows. I mean, the tone and approach of billions is kind of like rip-cord-pulling, referential, fun, kind of like, chattery. It's just a totally different execution of a show. Succession is actually a little bit more stately, even though there's scenes in which guys talk about swalling.

on load. Like, there's something that is a little bit more I don't know what the word is, almost like austere about what Succession is trying to do. Well, and I found it very valuable, frankly, to articulate my early frustrations with Succession or even to figure out what it was trying to do. For example, every character on billions is supposed to be excellent at what they do, so you kind of get this

grudging respect for financiers or lawyers. And then on Succession, part of the point is like they're all you know, incompetent. Oh, they're fucking dophons. Yeah. Which is weirdly, like, part of what is so impressive. And part of what is so impressive about Succession was like, especially in the early episodes, you were kind of watching them, like, dispense traditional, you know, means by which you

get people ensnared in a world, which for a while it was kind of like, okay, well, if you're not going to have us like these people either because they're charming or because they're talented, then why are we still around? or like it's admirable that you take a risk, but sometimes the risk doesn't pan out. And then eventually they did figure it out and then it became like a much more impressive accomplishment. Yeah. But that's part of the like when I'm watching billions, I feel like I'm being immersed in a world. I learn what, you know, an idea meeting is, for example.

Whereas like just our colleague Justin Charity pointed out to me, Emily Nussbaum's review of Succession explains the concept of a bear hug better than the actual show does, even though a bear hug is like an important plot device. See, I actually don't need a bear hug explained to me, not because I know what a bear hug is, but because it's not the point. It's a McGuffin. Yeah. And I think, like, in the later version of the show, I totally agree with it. It was just interesting to watch, like, part of how Billion sells us on the idea of surrounding ourselves with assholes is being like, but these assholes are really good at what they do. And it's fun to watch that. And succession is like, we're not even going to give ourselves that tool to sell people on the show.

and yet eventually they succeeded in selling at least the entire critical apparatus on it. For sure. Did you guys have any other ones, or can we move on to Best Moment? I think people have said this already, but I just want to shout out Glow's standalone show within a show. That was just really great. It both was a really fun stylistic experiment, but also like furthered the storylines of the season in a very oblique way and was just a really cool accomplishment. Has anybody written a blog post called How Glow Glowed Up? Should we call it Chief Keefe? Did you have any other you want to mention? No, you got it.

I really like the Brendan Fraser episode of Trust, the Lone Star episode. But that's barely summer, so I didn't want to make too big of a deal. April-ish. Yeah. Best moment. We've already mentioned Killing Eve. I think, like, the scene of the year is in the fifth episode where Villanelle breaks into Eve's house and demands that they have a polite microwave dinner with each other. And there's just so many power shifts in that scene.

It is both of their Emmy reel. Phoebe Waller Bridge basically wrote it out of order and made them audition with it. I think you can tell. That was really like the moment where I was just head over heels in love with the show. What about you, Sean? I love the why you have to say that episode of Barry.

That's a really great one where he unfortunately has to do something very terrible to someone in his life. I just, you know, we talked about Barry. It's just a great show that is able to seamlessly shift tones, which is way harder than it looks. And that really is like a moment. It's like a pretty normal conversation in a car and it gets tense.

And then all of a sudden, Bill Hater screamed something. And I mean, I was in a room alone so the room did not literally fall silent. Right. But I watched it. But like I could feel, you know, I personally definitely felt my own mood shift like just on that. Yeah. That was an amazing. You talk about where the show goes from.

there when you're talking about succession and how you have like i i kind of wonder how what barry does next season or what the way barry kind of moves forward because the one thing that i always really respected about that show among many things but it never shied away from the violence of the character and the actual consequences of what that character was capable of whereas i think darkly comic hitman shows or dramas are actually quite popular when you think back through gross point blank and everything else that and A lot of the times they'll kind of keep the violence at bay by making it kind of cartoonish or ironic. And they give these characters a redemption arc.

And it doesn't feel like Barry is a redemptive character in any way. I would have to imagine. Yeah. And where this next season is kind of the million dollar question. I mean, the critical consensus after the finale was almost like that would have been a great series finale because it is conclusively answered the theoretical central question of the series, which is like, can he redeem himself? And the answer is like, no, this is who he is now. Right.

But, you know, I also wouldn't have thought they would have made the first season work tonally as well as they did. So I'm just really excited to see how they make it work. Me too. Let's end with this. What was the summer missing? And you could answer that in any number of ways. I think that obviously... Are you asking me as a content officer or as a TV consumer?

No, I mean, I think that colors a little bit of what you're going to say. But the big thing that was missing was Thrones. Usually we have Game of Thrones either in the late spring going into summer or, in summer in the last year. And that kind of Super Bowl every Sunday thing is something that I think is pretty enjoyable. I don't know that I missed it, though, because I feel like I was able to apply my brain

to more stuff. Well, it was also interesting to almost watch different pockets of the internet come up with their own thrones. I'd like to just take this opportunity to shout out a show that I don't think has been mentioned that much on this podcast before, but at least among, like, my friend's circle,

was one of their shows of the summer, which is Pose, which is this Ryan Murphy series on FX. I think it's basically like the last new show he's going to make before he jumped ship to Netflix. It broke a record for the most trans actors in series regular roles. It is a show that is like located entirely within this basically all LGBT people of color in 1980s, New York City. And a lot of my friends really loved that show. And it, you know, I would see people like live tweeting it, which literally never happens about anything now. And it was really interesting to be like, oh, to a certain segment of the population, they, like, sit down and make this appointment viewing and they really love this.

And other people, I know, like, didn't really watch it. Like, I don't think it was a big show in the ringer offices at all. Right. And it was just interesting to watch, like, people cluster around certain, like, mini thrones, but there was no... Yeah, that's kind of a ring to rule them all. I think that's true for almost every show we've talked about, for Sharp Objects, for Yellowstone, for Who is America? There's sort of a... Hives.

There's a community around all of those shows, but... What we didn't have was that big, big unifier. I mean, there are so few shows that are like that nowadays. I mean, with the exception of Thrones, what would you even put in that conversation? I don't even know. I mean, there's like the numbers-wise, there's things like power and Yellowstone

that obviously have, like, big draws. I don't know what else. I mean, I think Westworld is supposed to be that, and it just became increasingly inscrutable and tiresome to watch for me. So it was hard to, like, get enjoyment out of it the way you can enjoy thrones on two levels. You can just watch it on a surface level

or you can watch it and piece together all of the existing mythology and all of the nods it's doing to its own story's history. But yeah, I don't think that there was a show like that that felt that dense in people like The Expans. People liked all these things. But yeah, it's a little bit more closer to it off now. I mean, for sure.

Alexa Fogel came on and talked about a little bit about the casting of Pose like a couple months back and I haven't gotten a chance to check it out. I mean, you were talking about TV as a starmenting mechanism. These are people who, like, don't get opportunities in Hollywood, period. And there are a lot of people coming out of that show who I think are going to get. Like, MJ Rodriguez plays Blanca, who's, like, arguably the protagonist. She's amazing.

Billy Porter, as Prey Tell, who's kind of, like, the MC, I think is, like, already getting some butt. Like, I think they're probably going to do many awards push for him. It's just an incredible cast, an incredible, like, set of discoveries. And also just, like, that's a story. that could easily be misery porn, but we were talking about making it and how it's kind of calming and positive, and that weirdly ended up being like what pose was.

It's a very feel-good show about a not-very-feel-good, like, time in American history. What's the show you guys are most looking forward to for the rest of 2018? Can I cheat? Yes. I've been watching my fall screeners, the new show on Amazon with Fred Armisen and Maya Rudolph.

Guys, Fred Armisen and Maya Rudolph are really funny, charming people. You should watch this show. show. It's really good. It's called Forever. I think it comes out September 14th. Just put a bookmark on that. I've started watching two shows, screeners for two shows, which is, unlike

Allison, it's not something I usually do. And they're both interesting for different reasons. And I'm sure that you and Andy will talk about them quite a bit when they come around. The first is kidding, which I know Allison has also seen a bit of, which is Jim Carrey's, I guess, first return to television since in Living Color. It's

essentially a show about what would happen if Mr. Rogers had a nervous breakdown and it's in very interesting performance. The episodes are directed by Michelle Gondry. It's a choice. It's a show with real style and a real point of view and it's definitely not going to be for everybody,

but it's an amazing cast. It's Frank Langella. It's Catherine Keener. It's really a high-level Judy Greer with an actual part as an actual person for a change. So that's really good. And then the other one is Maniac, which is Carrie Joji

Fukunaga's TV show is also his first TV show since True Detective, starring Jonah Hill and Emma Stone. And I've only seen two episodes, mixed back so far. Definitely one of the best-looking television shows I've ever seen, but also very hard to understand. And I'm very curious to see if people stick with that one. Yeah. Would you say it's a vibe? Not similar to sharp objects? You know, it's not so much a mood as it is like a textbook. You know, there's a lot of information to draw together. So like sharp objects, you could watch it and just let it flow over you. This is a show that you got to keep your eye on the ball all the time,

which is a different kind of viewing experience, especially with a streaming show. I think that the show that I'm most curious about, and I am looking forward to it a lot, I've talked about this, is Romanov's. I just, the idea of him doing an anthology that's loosely built tied together, I'm starting to get a little bit frustrated by some of the preordained limitations people are putting on their shows,

whether it's like it's an anthology series or it's a limited series and they're never really anthologies or limited series if one thing in it seems to click. I think obviously it's been a while since we've heard from him both artistically but publicly talking about some of the things

that transpired on the production of Mad Men and I'm kind of curious to hear about that. I'm curious to see about how that is discussed in the context of this show. But I'm mostly fascinated because obviously I have a tremendous amount of affection for Madman, and I have pretty much affection for every single person on Romanoff's

in terms of in front of the camera talent. So I'm kind of just, I just can't wait to see it. Yeah, I agree. I think the conversation around that show is going to be really tricky. I certainly don't really know how to handle it. I think that's probably common. In terms of the show itself,

what I'm probably most excited for to see Matthew Weiner with a real budget. Yeah. Like, Mad Men for both, like, where they were filming reasons and just pure budget reasons, like, literally never went outside. Of course, yeah. It would be, like, one block of, like, the, you know, the Plaza Hotel would be in the back. And, like, what they were able to do with that budget was really incredible.

But this was, like, $70 million and filmed all over the world and, like, looks like a million bucks. And I think it'll be really interesting if, like, if the caliber of the resources matches the caliber of the writing, I think there's a lot of potential there. I had a very unfair reaction to the trailer, even though I am very excited about it and concerned about what the discourse around it is going to be and how we'll grapple with it. But I just wish it was a period piece, which is just not fair, but I know that Matthew Weinder knows how to make a bang-up period piece, and I'm not sure based on the one feature

film he made, that he knows how to make something about contemporary times. That's a very fair criticism. And this movie is obviously set in contemporary times, and I'm sure there will be some historical Russian actual Romanov stuff. that goes on, but this is Amanda Pete in 2018. And so that actually has to work and be credible. And he could get away with a certain kind of performative dialogue style in Mad Men

because you could chalk it up to 50 or 60 years ago. And that's not the case now. So there has to be a naturalism that we haven't seen as much from him maybe since the Sopranos, and then we weren't identifying that as his style. Yeah, of course. Thanks so much, guys, for coming by.

This is Summer TV Awards for Allison Herman and Sean Fennacy. I'm Chris Ryan. and we will be back next Monday with a new batch of shows. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Hotel Tonight. If you love to score amazing deals and incredible hotels, you will love Hotel Tonight. Hotel Tonight partners with hotels to help them sell their unsold rooms,

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