The Watch - The Thanksgiving Primetime Grid and a Conversation with Ben Smith of ‘Treadstone’ | The Watch

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

Chris lays out a night of television for you to watch during the holiday weekend including ‘Mrs. Fletcher,’ ‘Servant,’ and ‘Condor’ (1:02). Then he sits down with the producer of ‘Treadstone,’ Ben Smith, to talk about what it is like to create a show within the Jason Bourne universe (16:32) and the logistics of shooting a show in so many different locations (30:02). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Ben Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com, riding solo today as Andy flies off to Thanksgiving pastures beyond Los Angeles. I am staying here. It is Wednesday when you are hearing this. And today's episode features my interview with Ben Smith, the showrunner for USA's Treadstone.

Treadstone is obviously an expansion on the kind of Jason-born universe, going back a lot to the Robert Ludlam novels that those beloved movies are based on. And it's a really, really interesting show. It kind of combines some of the sort of panic suite, panic room vibes of the born movies where you've got a lot of CIA operatives in, you know, surveillance offices checking out various European and American cities, yelling at each other, clearing the room.

And then you've got a lot of like almost, I would say, 24-style thriller action going on. So it's essentially like a couple of shows in one. It actually is two shows and one as it takes on two different timelines. One is set in the 70s and one sent in the contemporary times. And it's about a group of basically assassins being awoken. And what they're being awoken to do is the subject matter of the show. So it's a really cool show. I really enjoyed my conversation with Ben.

He has been overseeing. He's been kind of like the keeper of the flame of the born universe in a lot of ways. And so he's worked on several of the movies and has. a key hand in developing and producing the show that's on USA now. So my conversation with him happens in a few minutes. Before we get to that, I thought what I would do, I've done this a few times with Allison Herman, with Greenwald, but we usually, every once in a while, I'll try to do a primetime grid where we basically give you shows to watch as if it was still the good old days when there was 8, 8, 3, 9, 10, 11, and people would spend four hours in front of a television. You're going to have a lot

of time, I would imagine. Or maybe you won't, but hopefully you have some time to rest and relax over the next couple of days to chill out with family or maybe escape your family and you want something to watch. Maybe you want a couple of things to watch. Over the last few weeks, Andy and I have obviously been talking a lot about the Mandalorian and Watchmen. So if you haven't caught up on those, it's a great time to do that. I would also highly recommend the Crown. Incredible season. And you can listen to the last three episodes of The Watch feature myself and Amanda Dobbins talking about episodes 1 through 4, 5 through 7, and 8 through 10. So you have your companions there.

But I have a couple of recommendations to make. So starting in the 8 o'clock slot, a show that has been criminally overlooked, I would say, is HBO's Mrs. Fletcher. So this is a Catherine Hahn show. She plays a woman who is essentially an empty nester when her son goes off to college. She's a divorcee. and she's living in, I think, New Jersey and just kind of going about her daily life as an executive administrative person

at a retirement community and kind of has arrived at this what next phase of her life and what's next for her is she discovers internet pornography both as a gateway to exploring her fantasy life and also thinking about her sexuality as a single woman with no one else living in her home and she's just navigating that in her daily life.

She's trying to figure out what to do with herself. And there's also a B plot about her son at college. Josh Hamilton, who a lot of people remember from several Noah Baumbach movies, and funnily enough, he plays one of those guys sitting at a computer in one of the born movies. But he plays Catherine Hahn's ex. Dominic Lombardosie from The Wire is also in it. There's a lot of great character actors in it. but there's just, you know, Catherine Hahn is Catherine Hunt.

She's one of the unique and most dynamic talents we have on any size screen right now. And the show is kind of a throwback to, I don't know, I mean, it's a throwback to, it is somewhat high concept because it's basically a show about a woman discovering internet pornography in her 40s. But it's also pretty low concept. It's just about a bunch of people's lives at a certain point. there's a bunch of really compelling supporting characters in the show, but it's essentially driven by Han, and it's driven by her performance,

and it's driven by her neurosis and her comic timing, which is impeccable. And it comes from Tom Perada, who worked with Damon Lindeloff on the leftovers, and it's interesting to watch the two of them sort of divergent, Damon doing Watchman, Tom doing Mrs. Fletcher. I don't necessarily think Watchman plus Mrs. Fletcher equals leftovers. But I do think that some of the things that those guys are specifically interested are coming to the fore with the shows that they're working on now.

From my understanding, Mrs. Fletcher is a limited series, so there's just this season to watch. I believe five episodes have gone up on HBO now. They're a half hour each. So far, they're just really, like, human. There's moments of drama. There's moments of, you know, sort of emotional catharsis. But for the most part, it's like a sort of comedy of manners. And it's a really delightful show.

So Mrs. Fletcher is what I would recommend for 8 o'clock, although this gets a little racy for 8 o'clock, if you're thinking about things in terms of that early family primetime slot. Things get even darker for the next show I'm suggesting, which is Servant. So Servant comes out on Friday, I believe, and it is the Apple TV Plus show from M. Night Shyamalan, and it starts Toby Kebill and Lauren Ambrose from six feet under. And I think the less said about the plot, the better. The reason why I really like this show is because I feel like M. Night's stuff works really well in this half-hour context. It is a super creepy Rosemary's Baby Riff. I think that's what I feel comfortable saying about it. But the weirdness inherent in Shaman's work that kind of, it's not quite realistic, it's not quite naturalistic. There's something a little bit left of center in all the performances, the writing feels somewhat stilted. that can kind of drag after two hours, and the conceptual weight of his movies can sometimes cave in on itself.

This doesn't really happen with this show. It winds up maintaining this tension that I think is the best part about Chamban stuff. You know what I mean? Like, when you watch, I don't know, the village, the village is essentially really silly, but for that first hour, it's just like, what is this? And I think that that feeling is maintained

in servant really well, really beautifully shot, really weird, kind of has a little bit of a Rebecca vibe, like Hitchcock, where you're kind of trapped in this house with these people who are maybe losing their grip. Really, really cool show. So Mrs. Fletcher and Servant for that 8 o'clock hour.

I'm not going to get too cute here for 9 o'clock. Watch Watchman. It's the best show on television right now, I think it's just getting better every week, which is something that is a really rare occurrence on TV. I think even shows like Succession have their peaks and valleys over the course of the season as they set up different things.

This is a nine-episode run. Watchman is maybe hitting its peak peak heights at episode six. I can't wait to see what happens in 7-8-9. You're going to want to catch up on this because it feels like every week there's something to talk about with this show. And especially for last week's episode, it was really a tour to force. Andy and I broke it down extensively for about a half an hour on Monday's episode. So please check that out if you haven't already.

So Watchman, we've already talked about that. The next hour-long show that I want to suggest is sort of an oddball pick. I don't know how I came across this. I don't know why I came across this. I think I was just, maybe I was thinking about spy stuff, espionage, pop culture because of Treadstone. But I came across this show that's on ATTUverse, which in the streaming wars is a pretty far-flung place. But it's called Condor. And it is a TV remake of Three Days of The Condor, which is a TV remake of Three Days of the Condor,

this great Robert Redford Faye Dunaway movie from the 70s directed by Sidney Pollack. And this show stars Max Irons and also features performances from

William Hurt and Brendan Fraser and it's just like a really, really good spy show so far. And it's really hard to do espionage

well in the modern age because digital technology has changed espionage so much a lot of the cool stuff that we associated with spy movies

or spy TV or even spy fiction is mitigated by surveillance and the ability to hack into things and all the stuff where it's like, you're not really like with the person out in the world because so much can be done virtually. But Condor kind of bridges that gap in a really cool way.

A lot of the digital spying techniques are really fascinating. It feels like a very knowledgeable show. And the performances are really excellent. I've only watched a couple, but it's coming back for its second season. I know that it's basically like from what I can tell and some like Googling only available to direct TV ATTUVERS subscribers.

So I know that I'm suggesting something that's pretty rare, but maybe you have access to that. And if you do and you haven't gotten a chance to check it out, I've really enjoyed Condor so far. So I can't wait for that second season to come. And the last one, we usually do kind of a late night shoutout, like, you know, a talk show shout out.

And we like to kind of sometimes mix it up with things that we're seeing on YouTube or elsewhere. I'm going to recommend another podcast. It's called Tiger Belly. So Tiger Belly has been on for a few years, and it's the work of a comedian named Bobby Lee and his partner, Kalila Koon. And they basically just have this long-running pod

that they do out of their house with a couple of friends, all of whom who seem to be working on the show, you know, like videographers and engineers, but they all basically play kind of an, on-screen, on-air character on the show. And it's pretty freewheeling.

You know, a lot of it, like a lot of comedy podcasts, is about comedy, so your mileage may vary on that. But they're all on YouTube. And they are usually around, like, an hour to an hour and a half. And, you know, they feature, like,

if you're into comedy, I'm sure there are names you recognize. Every once in a while, there's, like, sort of more celebrity celebrities, like Eric Stone Street from Modern Family did one, and Jordan Peel did one. There's a bunch of people. But, you know,

basically podcasts are as good as the chemistry of the people who are on it. And somehow Bobby Lee seems to have chemistry with everybody. Part of it is that thing that has kind of become a staple of podcast, which is sort of the self-mythologizing of the host themselves. I'm sure Andy and I are guilty of it. But you know, you basically have to buy into this kind of weird world that they make, this reality that they make within the podcast. But the conversations that they have, I find are always really funny.

There's always really good anecdotes in there that people are always really, really candid, but they never drift off too far into self-solopsism. You know, like they're not simply there to, you know, promote stuff or to complain about things or to kind of talk about their own inner pain. It's really like a fascinating, often hilarious back and forth with people that he knows in and around the LA comedy scene or that he's known from his years either doing bad TV or lots of sitcoms and lots of appearances and other stuff. And his repertoire with Kalila is really, really fun.

I've only recently discovered it. You can find those on the Tiger Belli YouTube channel, and I really find them quite enjoyable to watch. And the way that they shoot them, you know, isn't Filmmaker's Corner or anything, but they basically do a three-panel screen. So you can see one shot that is like everybody talking together. There's one camera angle that's on Bobby and Kalila

and another camera angle that's on the guest. And that may sound way too busy and frantic when I'm just describing it. But actually watching it is really cool. One of the things that's been fascinating over the last five or six years is I find that my brain is able to process imagery in a different way,

probably because of the amount of time I spend, you know, clicking through tabs or having different streams of information, whether it's a video and a podcast and music. And, you know, I try not to do it. do all that stuff at once. But we're basically reprogramming our brains anyway to be able to receive information in these different quadrants at once. And I think watching three different camera

angles at once is not actually that complicated when you get down to it. And especially when the conversation is so easy to follow and easy to enjoy as it is on Tiger Belly. So strangely, I think kind of innovative in the way to depict the conversations, or maybe not innovative, but really charming. And I really highly recommend it. You know, you kind of want to drift off with some friends at the end of the night. It's a really cool way to go out. So Mrs. Fletcher on HBO, Servant on Apple TV, Watchman on HBO, Condor on the AT&T audience network U-verse, like, I honestly, I'm sorry, but it's really hard to figure out how to watch it, but I've watched it because the first few episodes are available on the AT&T site if you want

to watch them. And then Tiger Belly on YouTube to end the night. We're going to take a quick break and when we come back, my conversation with Ben Smith, the showrunner of Treadstone. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Watchmen. Can't get enough of HBO's Watchmen. Now you can go deeper inside the show critics have called your new TV obsession with the official Watchman podcast. Hosted by Watchman, executive producer and writer Damon Lendeloff and Craig Mazen, the creator of Chernobyl, the new podcast explores narrative choices, uncovers Easter eggs, and examines the show's connection to the groundbreaking graphic novel and to modern events.

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Then listen to the official watchman podcast available on all major podcast platforms. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by American Express. I am one of the lucky few with a commute in L.A. that only takes about 15 minutes. Don't hate me. I'm sorry. It's the truth, but I still make the most of my drive by listening to my favorite podcasts. I'll get a head start on shows like House of Carbs, binge mode, or the big picture. And then I'll finish up an episode when I get to the office.

It's a great way to ease myself into the day, matter how your morning commute looks, you can ease your mind a little bit knowing that with Green from Amex, you're getting three times points on travel, including transit like taxis, ridechairs, subway swipes, and even ferry rides for those of you who get to enjoy a nice little breeze on your way to work. Learn more at Americanexpress.com slash green from Amex, term supply. I'm so excited now to be joined by Ben Smith, who is, your showrunner, I assume, is the proper title for Treadstone, but so much more because one of the reasons I wanted to have to be. have you in Ben is that so I was reading about you often Andy and I will have guests and you know

their their sort of attachment to a show or a movie or something will be like well you know studio asked me to come in and give my spin on on this piece of intellectual property or give my take or angle but I imagine you're almost on the other side of that table because you're almost like the guardian of a lot of this IP that's come out of like the Ludlam books so I was wondering if you could just just start with tell us a little bit about what it is you do uh what it is they do we have a production company based on the lot. We do the born movies. We work with a lot of the Lidlum IP. We also have other things that we're doing, other shows and other movies. But that is a, that's kind of the jewel in the crown of our company. I've been involved for 20 years.

Yeah. Initially, I was an agent many years ago. At ICM, right? Yeah. Okay. And was Doug Lyman. was interested in doing the born identity, and I was asked if I'd ever read it. And I had as a kid, my grandmother was obsessed with Loveham. It was actually the first hardcover book that I got as a 12-year-old kid was the Parsifle Mosaic and loved, loved it. And I told him that I was a huge fan of the book and would love to help him put it together. I had just seen Dolores Claiborne, which Tony Gilroy had written. And I loved, I worked a little bit with Kathy Bates, and I loved the characters that Tony had created within this world of both Jennifer, Jason Lee's character and Kathy Bates.

And I knew that Tony could write a terrific thriller from the work that he did before and on Devil's Advocate. And these are movies going back over the years. Yeah. You're talking to a guy did a 90-minute podcast about Proof-Life. Okay. So you're very familiar. And thought that because there was such a strong structure and idea that Ludlum had brought within the idea of born identity, that Tony bringing some of the characterizations that he does so well to this kind of world could really elevate it. Yeah. So that was kind of step one, and I had no skin in the game. I was just a fan.

And not shortly after the Ludlum's people contacted me and asked if I'd be interested in working with them. Right. So then you work at a place called captivity, right? Right, captivate. Captivate, I'm sorry. Captivate and captivate sort of overseas, like, the Ludlum stable of properties, right? One of the interesting things you mentioned there with Tony and obviously with Lyman and then later with Greengrass and of course Matt Damon is it it feels like everybody who comes into contact with the

the born property but like in general these stories is they leave a little bit of themselves behind and then I guess your job is to sort of grapple with all these things and also the Ludlam legacy and what the vision for that how do you go about managing not only all these different viewpoints but how how important this has become to so many people uh what do you mean well I mean I have a concept of of how Treadstone should look and feel and be because of the way I've seen in the movies or the way I've read in the books. But your job is to sort of manage my expectations

and also give me something new, right? So I'm kind of curious about where you come in and the creative process and this kind of stuff. Treadstone as a concept is something, and I'm going to dive into Treadstone as a, because that'll help you understand a little bit better about kind of my POV. The idea of doing a show in the sandbox,

that Bloodlum has, and this is within all of his books and all of the films or the films that have been made in terms of Bourne, is it's about how one person can make a difference. And in the world today where we feel so kind of isolated and that we can't make a difference, his whole kind of agenda was that you can make a difference. And that one person can have an impact. while against this crazy global geopolitical landscape that we live in. And that's a core concept that we like to play with and evolve in the films and now in the TV show. And in talking to different writers and we were working at Fox on this with Chris Morgan. We worked with Anthony Ziker on this at CVS. And I met Tim Cring.

We started talking, and Tim, you know, created heroes. And he started talking about kind of the Heroes template and how this could look in terms of a Treadstone world. And I loved it. Yeah. As a jumping off point, the idea of having sleeper, agent, cicadas, waking up in different places around the world after having been basically left out in the cold

and having no awareness of even joining a program was mana to me. Yeah. And, you know, part of the born identity is identity. Yeah. And who are you and who are your masters? And when we first meet Jason Bourne in the movie, he's coming out of the water, as if almost giving birth. Sure.

And then finding out who he is and what his powers are. And that's an archetypal idea that people around the world can relate to. So having a show with the kind of the fulcrum being that different characters are waking up and having no idea that they even had these skills and that they're being sent in these directions and then grappling with who they are was very key in terms of the kind of the Ludlam POV. Yeah. And then my POV. For sure. When you first started getting, I think I remember the article about you leaving ICM was around 08 when you first started to take over this. And in 08, we had no idea that we were going to be seeing this kind of television landscape that we are in now.

So can you tell me a little bit about how things have changed in the industry and in terms of how we watch TV that maybe were beneficial for Treadstone? Yeah. I mean, what drew me to Hollywood as a kid was stories. And the impact that these stories had on me and kind of the mythology that they present. on screen drew me out here and so many other people that I know. And today, and we've seen this shift, and I'm sure you've talked to many people about this on your show, but in the last decade, there's been a major shift in terms of like character, story, drama, thrillers on screen, as opposed to on the television.

And I think that a decade ago, I was very aware of what was opening up every Friday night. Yeah. And it had tickets to things. Sure. It's been up on Friday night. That now happens probably four times a year. Really? For me.

Yeah, I'm aware because I'm a moviegoer and I'm an AMC Stubbs member where I get the free tickets. And I'm like, okay, they're not free, but I watch television. Yeah. And because I like good stories. And for us in terms of being able to sit and be with characters and evolve with them and show them, yeah, the, the, the, freedom to live with a character like on our show like Soyoun and watch her be awakened as a housewife with a young child in North Korea and then see how that plays out. It's awesome.

You think about even for viewers, you know, when you're watching even the first episode of the season, as a viewer, even though I watch a lot of TV, I can tell that my brain is ready to accept certain things that it wouldn't have been in 2009. And, you know, we're just like, I can handle 73 and current day, or, you know, like the 70s plot line and the current plot line and all these characters and not knowing exactly how they're all going to converge or intersect. And if you introduce somebody new to me in the third episode or there's these turns, yeah, exactly.

I feel like, you know, like, yeah, I don't want to spoil things for people who haven't gotten there, but, like, you know, I'm not, like, thrown off when, when different characters emerge like that. the way you might have been seven years ago, nine years ago. I mean, the opportunity for really complex storytelling and asking viewers to just go on this journey with you must be really exciting. Do you think that the – because this is something that I think about a lot. Sure. And talk a lot about – because we're able to process as a people, I think, information so much quicker than we could even seven years ago.

because of, I mean, I don't know, a fifth of my life is probably lived in a digital space with computers and phone. I mean, there's a lot of time. I think about how much of the other four, the four parts are mitigated by that. By that. Yeah. That we're just getting bombarded and processing information at such a quick speed. And that, yeah, a television show has to reflect that because you can get bored easily. Or I do because there's, I think that I know that I have a little bit of ADD and I need some jolts. I need to keep me interested, keep me hooked.

So yeah, was that like this 10 years ago? No. No. Do I think that shows like Heroes or Game of Thrones also helped us in terms of being able to juggle multiple storylines? Yeah. Yeah, I think it changes the chemistry of our viewer brain to be able to watch, like, watch, lost, and especially now to think back on loss and be like, I was able to put this part of my brain on a shelf and know, okay, this is happening on the island, this is happening at a different timeline, this is happening on the other side of the island. And I can keep those three things going because I know I'm being taken somewhere.

And I do feel the same way when watching Treadstone where I'm like, okay, like, I'm trying to keep like all the various characters straight as far as who could or couldn't show up in different places here. And it, but you do have a trust inherent in that. And I think also the trust comes from how much these, the movies have meant to me over the years. You know what I mean? And even with Legacy and Born, where I was like, oh, yeah, like, this makes sense to me. And this is like a world I really enjoy spending time in. Which I'm one of the things I wanted to sort of compliment you on him, but also talk a little bit about is, man, you never feel like you're on a soundstage in L.A. with this show. And that's one of the coolest things about it is, is how lived in and of the world it feels.

Can you tell me a little bit about the production and shooting? Because I know you guys have multiple crews going in all these different places. You racked up quite a few frequent flyer miles, I'm sure. Yeah. I actually, in the last 10 months, have flown about 250,000 miles. How are you feeling? Which is insane. I definitely, I needed a week where I basically just sat and stared at a wall.

Yeah. I was like, I don't even need to turn on the TV. I just needed to sit and watch. place for a little bit of time. It was an amazing experience. One of the important things in terms of kind of bringing something in this canon and in this mythology of born parts that I love when I'm watching a born film is the kind of travelogue aspect of it and that it does take me to different parts of the world and it's a different POV when we're in Morocco and Ultimatum or the Philippines and legacy.

Oh, yeah. That it's a different look. It's not a bond look. It's a different look. And I love that part of it. And when we were talking with the studio, I made it like this was what we're going to do. Yeah.

It's like we're going to be part of the package. This is part of the package of our show. And they embraced it completely. And we ended up shooting in Amsterdam, Greece, Paris, London, Hong Kong, Taiwan, India, Africa, Colombia, Amsterdam. Did I say that? Yeah. So are you guys doing skeleton crews?

Like, what's the setup? So for production, we were based in Budapest, and we had three units shooting almost all the time. We had our main unit shooting in Budapest, and we did have, I don't know, a couple hundred thousand square feet in studio space, but we're mostly location-based. I would say probably 70% were on location. And then we had an action unit shooting simultaneously every day. And then we had a small foreign unit that was traveling. Okay. And that was, we worked with local crews. So while we had a smaller Budapest unit traveling, we had a full Indian crew that we worked with locals. We had a full African crew that we worked with Ghana in Ghana. We had a full Colombian crew when we were shooting

in Colombia. So how does that work when you talk about traditional roles? Like what is like a Brad Anderson episode of the show? Like is he overseeing Daly's coming in from different places? No. No. Trodding? Like, yeah. Brad and I were loving it. When we're shooting in Ghana four months ago. Wow. And it was incredible. Alex Graves trekked up or Alex and I, tracked up the mountains to in the Himalayas to shoot episode three. And Jeremy Webb

who does our finale and it's phenomenal. Traveled. We went from Amsterdam, we went to Amsterdam, shot in Amsterdam. We flew from Amsterdam to Korea and shot in Seoul. And then we flew from Seoul to Columbia and shot

in Colombia. And it was awesome. That's just, it's like... It was amazing. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, It really is, you realize when you're watching the show how essential that is to the movies and how it wouldn't have been the same thing if it had just been the crisis, the CIA crisis from show. You know what I mean? It has to feel lived in. One of the tenants, because people were exhausted, you know what I mean?

And it is grueling. But for me, it's like another few hours in a flight to bring some epic place in Ghana or in some. some cool situation in Korea to viewers, it's worth it. Yeah. We got to, like, guys, come on. Like, let's just spend another five hours on the plane and go shoot this. So it is about the viewers. How much five-dimensional chess do you have to do in terms of multiple seasons,

but also possible movie executions that may or may not be in conversations, other Ludlum books? Like, how much holistic thinking do you have to do about, like, for lack of a better-born universe? A ton. Yeah. All the time. But it always goes back. I mean, yeah, there's macro always.

But the macro, when you think about a born movie, like born supremacy, which is a brilliant film, there are a lot of different layers. There's the kind of the political conspiracy layer. But the most important part is the emotional hook. And what's the activation for your characters? And in two, it was the death of Marie. Yeah. Damon was just on Bill's Pod talking about that. He was still talking about like, it has to be this way.

And that's why he said that was his favorite of the series because of just the emotional wallop at Kepak's. That was, yeah. And that was an engine, actually, for another three films. Yeah. So that's the most important part is are we connected with the character? So we're talking about, you know, we're working on other films and we're working on talking about another season, hopefully,

and what does that look like, but it always starts from the emotional hook of the character. Is there like a command center where you have like a whiteboard of like the timeline and the characters and the world that you guys are building out? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see that.

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that's pretty complicated. Yeah. Like it is, but you just like anything. I mean, the show is complicated, but you just break it apart, you know, and you tackle one thing at a time. And then you build. And that's what we did with Treadstone.

And that's kind of what I do with everything. It's just like, what do I need to focus on now? Do we have the core principle idea? And then you build. One of the things that I've always been interested in with this universe, but also especially with Treadstone itself is the light links to our world without ever feeling like it's subservient to it. So basically, like, some of the political actors and global forces there resemble what we

see in the newspaper every day, but you're not chasing headlines and not being forced to be overly reactive to that. To what extent do you feel like this universe has a tight, like an actual solid connection to the world we get up and look at the Washington? at the Washington Post every day, and we're like, okay, Ukraine, interesting? Like, you got to read about that. Like, how do you guys basically create this shadow world? I mean, we're very aware of what's happening in the world without question.

And does that inform us, yes, to a degree. It's something that we've taught a lot. I mean, there was a previous incarnation where one of our characters walks through a rally, where there were figures that we know, and I said, no, we can't do that. Like, I don't want to talk about leaders that are there today. It dates your show immediately, but it also takes you out when you're watching it. So North Korea, it wasn't not obvious, but was a cool place to explore and just because of our perception of it and I've spent a lot of time over the years and I've been fortunate enough

to have somewhat of a relationship with the CIA and went to Lingling and talked about met with one of the heads of the North Korea division and the first thing that he said to me was because he knew that we were working in the space and we'd like to vet what our or I like to vet what our stories are in terms of like the rogue nuke what's going on in North Korea The stiletto thing. Yeah. Yeah. Just like the big.

And just like how, like, how far away is this from a potential reality? Sure. And everything that we're talking about. I can imagine the answers there would be a little scary. Yeah. No. At the end of the, at the end of the day where we met with a ton of people, it was like, whoa, we were really close. But the first thing that he said about.

Please don't see that. No, but. I know what you mean. The first thing he said about North Korea is everyone loves to live there. And there's a lot of popular, or at least my misconceptions about what life was like in North Korea. And to show a family and that people are people. You know what I mean? And that people have different ideologies, but that people are people.

So that was another core thing that we wanted to show. My co-host, Andy and I have been spending a lot of time over the last couple of weeks talking about shows like Watchmen and Mandalorian. And one of the sort of unifying things that we've been discussing with both of those things is how those showrunners are essentially doling out information and what they've chosen to hold back versus what they show. And I think Treadstone easily falls into that conversation because one of the most fun parts about this show is that this is the secret world within the secret world. and that there is a secret world often unknown to the people who are the characters themselves. There's an unknown part of themselves that they're discovering, and then there's an unknown, there are unknown layers to these intelligence agencies. Yes.

Thematically, that's so exciting. But as a storyteller, how do you balance the sort of the deep dive you want to do on that versus what you need to tell me as a viewer on a week-to-week basis? Just like what you're saying, you're peeling an onion. Yeah. And you got to do it carefully. And you don't need to unpeel the whole onion at one time. And the minute that you think you do know what's going on, you don't.

And that goes for a journey of yourself or a journey of a conspiracy. The minute that you think that you do know what's up, you don't. And on a week-to-week basis, we kind of look at character by character. We know where we're going. We know where they're headed. But what are the challenges for them to be able to discover what that next layer is? Are there any particular characters? So I believe we're up probably when this runs next Wednesday will be episode seven.

Yeah. Right. So are there any characters without going into detail who, you know, who have emerged as like not clubhouse favorites or personal favorites, but like ones that you were like really have drawn, found yourself a tautive. to not only in the pre-production and creative process, but even in the watching the episodes, like maybe a character who's been brought to life by an actor in a way that you didn't see on the page

or didn't even think about it in your head when you guys were first talking about this show. Boy, I've been living with these characters for a while now. And I gotta say, there's a lot of surprises still to come for the show that, I'm really thrilled with everybody. Yeah. Like, we have some of my friends put together a screening of the show every week,

and we all get together and have dinner. Oh, that's really cool. And so tonight, Hujou, who plays So Youun, is coming and watching. And just the way that she's embodied the character of So Yun is incredible. That's what I would say. That was the plot line that's really jumped out and been so exciting. She's, yeah, Hu Jouou is incredible. and her dedication to her character.

I mean, I remember in the pilot when she had to, she cuts a carrot. And she went to training with like this master chef in Korea for three months to be able to chop that carrot like that. Like that's the dedication that she brings. Jeremy and his, I mean, he almost becomes. mom's Bentley on set, and I'm so grateful for Jeremy's portrayal of Bentley, because I believe him. I believe that he's going through this journey, and it's an incredibly hard character to embody,

and it's kind of the most born-like of the show. Brian, I think that the twist in terms that Brian in episode four had a lot to convey, playing Doug, and I think that he does an incredible job. Because it's to find out that you have been a part of this program, and I won't give a spoiler away, but how that's affected your immediate family. Yeah, of course. That's a real gut bunchful. Yeah, and you're either going to land it and roll with it and make it something.

And I think that the way that Brian has done that is incredible. And then another personal favorite. Actually, I love them all. No, I know. It's like asking you choose your kids. Yeah, no. And the way that Tracy has – Tracy is elusive in terms of Tara because Tara is on a journey of discovery.

She's kind of the audience avatar. In the beginning, like, you kind of feel like, okay, this is my inn, this is the journalist who's being brought into this world sort of against her will. But obviously, there's steps there. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of my friends and like my mom or my sister, they love, they love Tara, they love Petra, both younger and older Petra. They really identify with them. And they appreciate how Tracy kind of embodies Tara in that she is unapologetic. And she is who she is.

And you have to meet her on her terms, which is not always how every kind of television character is. Sure. So I appreciate that. Well, we can wrap up there. Ben, thank you so much for coming by. Rock and wrong. Really appreciate it. Treadstone.

We'll be watching. and we'll have to have me on again sometime soon. Awesome. Thanks, Chris. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Watchmen. Can't get enough of HBO's Watchmen. Now you can go deeper inside the critically acclaimed news series with the official Watchman podcast, hosted by a Watchman executive producer and writer Damon Lendeloff

and Craig Mazen, the creator of Chernobyl. The new podcast explores narrative choices, uncovers Easter eggs, and examines the show's connection to the groundbreaking graphic novel. Stream Watchman now and catch new episodes Sundays at 9 p.m. Only on HBO.