The Watch - The Thing About ‘Westworld,’ Plus 'Succession' and ‘The Break With Michelle Wolf' | The Watch (Ep. 263)

Episode Date: June 4, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Alison Herman share their gripes about this season on 'Westworld' (2:00) and discuss HBO’s new Sunday night drama, 'Succession' (17:00). Later they review Michelle Wolf’s new Netflix show, ‘The Break,’ and examine the positioning of the streaming talk show (25:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio is Allison Herman. No Angie today. What's up, Allison? not too much always lovely to be here

Allison I can't tell because like you should be the guest guest host I'm trying to think of a Westworld joke for what you are for Andy here but it's like it's not coming together which means says more about Westworld in my joke I'm the weird red orb that's called like a pearl

or a chestnut or something I don't know we have a lot to talk about there I get the feeling like you have been implanted with Andy's control unit when I we hear your Westworld take so we have some parallels We are going to talk about Westworld today. We're going to get Allison's thoughts in succession.

And then I wanted to talk to her about Michelle Wolf's show The Break on Netflix. And a little bit about some, she wrote a great feature on Wolf that went up last week. But there was some stuff in there about talk shows and Netflix that I wanted to ask her about as much as I want to talk about Michelle Wolf. But let's first get into Westworld because we haven't talked about it on the watch for a while. Partially because I'm like, Shoemaker's going to talk about this in a way that's just like far more profound than what Andy and I can do. because I think Andy's going to dump on it. And I'm going to be like, meh.

But I watched last night, last night's episode of Westworld's, so spoilers going forward. And then I listened to the recapables, Westworld, the recapables, and I read Hyphitz, and I read Joanna on Vanity Fair, and I saw that timeline on Insider

that Kim Renfro and Jenny Cheng did, which is just basically everything that's ever happened on Westworld, put in a chronological timeline, and is very helpful to understand what's happened on the show. And it occurred to me that the pleasure and interest I have in reading and listening to things about this show far outweigh watching the show on a level that is like unprecedented in television.

That is precisely the problem with this show. So I think I am here to lodge what sounds like an extremely basic complaint about Westphorl, but I would like to make the case as actually a very valid and profound complaint about Westphoril. Anytime you see, this is an incredible setup through an event. Look, I'm just, don't at me. I'm laying out all the caveats. You think I'm basic, but it is profound. But you sound like Jonah right now.

Look, man, I just have the takes, which is, it's so confusing. I just have no idea what is going on while I am watching this episode, which I realize makes me sound like an inattentive viewer, but I think it speaks to a much deeper creative problem with the show, which is that I genuinely think Jonathan, Jonathan, Nolan and Lisa Joy have like Jedi mind tricked themselves into believing that basic narrative clarity and allowing the even casual viewer to just understand the basics of where we are, what people want, and where this is heading is not a goal for them. Or even worse, is just something that they should actually try to avoid.

I think they are making the show for Reddit. Reddit is not, while they obviously do great work, it's not the majority of the audience. And I also think the experience of watching Westworld is basically the prelude or only one component of the experience of Westworld. Yeah. And I do not have the time or resources or investment to put into that. Like, obviously in my case, I have dozens of other TV shows to watch, which I realize is a very special circumstance. But my version of having to watch a bunch of other TV shows is everyone else's, they have a life to live. Yeah.

Like, I just don't understand how. Forget that. Let's not even get into time resources management. it, it's just not a very compelling drama. And take out the human part of it. It's just not a very, like, you know, you think about shows like scandal or alias that after a couple of seasons, if you had missed 10 episodes and you were like, what's been happening on scandal or alias?

And I told you, you'd be like, excuse me? Because, you know, it's like six agencies within an agency. People are dead. They've come back to life. It's the father. The way I think of those shows are, is like they have so much plot that there's effectively no plot. so I can jump into Empire right now.

And here's another thing about those shows. Here's how Cookie feels. Here's how, sorry, Terrence Howard's character feels. It's just like, there's a lot going on, but you can just jump in at any time because you have a very basic understanding of who the people are. And the people on the show are fucking magnetic

and charismatic and interesting to watch. And they emote and they feel things and the writing is compelling at times. You know what I mean? Like that's why those shows can survive. That's why, you know, that's why if Killing Eve goes off the deep end with the 12 next season, it's not going to matter because you've got these amazing performances.

And it's not to take away from the work that people are trying to do on Westworld or anything about their level of acting ability. They are literally playing robots who aren't sentient. They have nothing to hinge their performance on. I have literally no idea what anyone on this show wants in a really basic way. And just to, you know, they have this bizarre parallel timeline, structure that they toggle in between that I personally just find

impenetrable. But they're trying to do the exact same thing in both timelines. In both timelines, Tessa Thompson is searching for Peter Abernathy. And because I know in the present timeline she hasn't found him, why am I supposed to pay attention to her trying to find him in the previous timeline?

There's just no purpose. She's in a tough spot as an actress and like because I feel like she's, her character is supposed to be one of the like sort of like omniscient people because obviously she knows so much about Delos but she's also been there but she's also doing these things and I feel like her performances in a lot of these situations I'm just like are they telling her to play this as flat as possible

because they don't really know what they're going to do next? You know what I mean? Like are they don't want her to tip any one way or another because she has to just basically smirk? Well everyone is so one note on the show I think because there just hasn't been any narrative or emotional progress. Like, nothing has changed for her. I believe it was the Vox recap that I read for, possibly it was last week's episode,

but basically just everyone points out that they pointed out that almost everyone, at least emotionally, is in basically the same place they were at the start of the season. Like, we got yet another Dolores May of confrontation where Maeve is like, I want to choose my own way. Yes. And Dolores is like, do you, but I don't agree with you. Like, Charlotte is still just playing this smirking corporate suit type. because they won't reveal what she actually wants because they can't say what the data is because that's a big reveal and they have to save that for later.

Right. They just reintroduced Robert Ford and Anthony Hopkins and no disrespect to Anthony Hopkins, who's obviously a legend. I do not want him on the show. He's one of the worst parts of it because they make his dialogue this confusing word cloud of vague, abstract metaphors because he's supposed to be this like omnipotent force who knows everything but won't share anything. and they can't actually say what this person is trying to do. Right. Because then they'd be spoiling it. And this show has nothing to hold over us except finding out these open questions.

There's also a thing going on right now. And I know that they've talked about this before. I know other people have observed this. But this idea of like video game story mechanics, this is something I thought kind of infected solo a little bit too. God, people must be loving this podcast right now. But this idea of everything being these little mini missions within missions, and as soon as anything that feels like a dramatic moment,

I saw somebody note this last night about how many times a conversation will be interrupted by like a kind of unnecessary piece of action taking place, like right when someone's about to either do something or say something important. Like Bernard almost confessing to the murder and then they literally find a trapdoor. Yeah. And they're like, oh, let's go here. Yeah. I mean, this Scooby-Doo shit that.

happens in this show. Now, here's the case that I would make for this show, is that it is actually quite interesting to watch a television show that's set in what is essentially the American mythology. I mean, you know, it's like these are our nation building and nation staining stories that we've got in the American West. And they're building like a mythology out of that and playing with these character tropes and playing with these types, these archetypes. And that it could be a commentary on the cyclical nature of good and evil and the inability of anybody ever to break free of their destiny or their fate or whatever.

But that doesn't have to come at the expense of any kind of character logic. And I know that because they can just punch in an iPad and that means Maeve can control people's minds, they can kind of do anything. But they've now kind of gotten into this a couple of things, the iPad and these control units,

where I'm just like, so then what are the rules? I mean, that's the great tragedy of the show, right? There's a lot of incredibly meaty, ideological, and thematic stuff about consciousness and the definition of personhood and mythology building and the whole idea of a cradle of civilization. And theoretically, these hosts are going to be a new race and eventually they're going to break out to the new world. And then the show just opt to do absolutely nothing with it in favor of just trumping up these larger mysteries.

I mean, I thought the most telling thing this season has done to date was, I believe it is the sixth episode when William and his daughter finally come face to face and they're having a conversation. And it is two humans talking to each other about really serious stuff like his partner and her mother committing suicide and how he conducts himself in the world in the park and what role this park serves in the greater society, which is incredibly interesting and substantive stuff. And then as soon as he's like, okay, I'm going to go with you and I'm going to call this off. I'm like, oh, they're immediately going to split them up, which they then did. Yes.

Which is like either this show is just not interested in telling. that kind of incredibly interesting story, or it's just not up to it. It just doesn't know how to do it. And so instead, it sacrifices literally everything, its themes, its characters, all these things that I look for in a good TV show just in the name of, you know, sewing the breadcrumbs, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing this show really lacks is, uh, is an audience avatar. Um, and I think that they tried, tried it a little bit with Logan and, and, uh, William, you know, in terms of like a sort of Bacchanal guy who wants to just screw and drug his way

through Westworld and another guy who's looking at it to sort of define who he is. But they were so absent of any kind of recognizable characteristics and the writing of those characters was so stale that I don't think that you could ever be like, oh, like you watch Mad Men and you think like all these guys are such like bad, you know, like there's such, they're like out of touching distance

and then there's somebody like Peggy to live through you know like there's a peggy to kind of like walk into this world with and there was nobody like that on Westworld I think that's a really good point because the most basic consequence of it is that there's no one asking the same questions that we are I think maybe Shannon Woodward

comes the closest to that and maybe Lisa is more the sort of British caddish writer I think they're maybe the same because they are rational smart humans who are just figuring out how to adjust to this new reality in the park, but even they have access to a lot of stuff that we don't, or because they're separated from different plots. Like, Elsie isn't going like, wait, what does Dolores want out of this?

Like, what's the point of this train? Why are they exploding things? What are they trying to break out of the park? Why does Dolores want the Peter Abernathy information? What is the Peter Abernathy information? I guess Stubbs is asking that question at great volume and repeatedly. But it's just they keep kicking this can down the road. And I feel like a, you know, a better show would realize that unveiling whatever is in that is, you know, the precursor to more and better story.

And because the show, as you propose, might not know what's coming next. It's just delaying that reveal as long as possible. How is it doing? Do you know how it's doing ratings wise? Or in terms of its popularity? I haven't looked recently. I think the same day numbers are going down. But I also think that might just be a consequence of everyone watches things on delay and they don't expect big things to happen. We already know there's going to be a season three.

I'm curious if, like, I think this might be a four season and done show. I think, like, next season is guaranteed. I'm guessing if it's, if other people's sentiments mirror mine where I'm just like, I don't have the wherewithal to commit to the show because the show is not a one hour a week commitment. It's basically a five or six hour a week commitment. Right. I just feel like, you know, my parents would just take one look at this and be like, I don't understand. Yeah, I think that there is.

there are people out there, and there's nothing wrong with appreciating this show this way, is just sort of like they watch it, and then they turn it off. And I think that you and I, to some extent, Andy, and a lot of people who consider themselves, like, TV fans and really engage with the medium and engage with, like, the criticism of the medium are probably just like, this show seems exclusively made for people to solve, and we're moving faster than the show is. And there's nothing wrong, I think, with having, you know, extra late. on which the show can be read.

You brought a Mad Men, and maybe this isn't a perfect analog. But Mad Men, you could watch it and stuff happen, or you could go really deep on the references and the characters and everything. You could go, like, really, really into it. And this is like, it is only meant to be close read, and there's no way to just enjoy it and get a lot out of it

if you're not willing to go just completely 110% with it. You know, I know that this show was, it was expensive, and it was a very long road to get it to air in terms of the production. in retrospect, what would you have said to a show that was essentially two seasons of the Jimmy Simpson story, like just literally, like whether it was chronologically from him meeting Emily, you know, or Juliet, Juliet's the wife. I think so, but again, we've seen her like twice. It's this huge foundational figure in his life and this other character who he just met's life,

and we know nothing about her. Well, I mean, obviously there's something to that. but like some sort of chronological Jimmy Simpson story in which we Westworld was almost the two-thirds into the first season. It was like the reveal or whatever. And then Crown style, season three, Hopkins shows up. Hopkins and Ed Harris basically show up as the stars of season three to give you something to keep going with.

I almost wonder what the show would have felt like if they told it straight. Because when you look at that timeline, you're like, this is kind of cool, but it would just be like very different storytelling. I do think it would have felt a little bit more like a cliche golden age show because that arc that you're laying out is breaking bad. Right. It's a dude getting in touch with his dark side, getting too in touch with his dark side, and now he's getting pulled out by a woman in his life. And I think maybe my response to that would have been I've also seen enough of this, but I can't just help by, I can't help watching the show as a currently. is and wishing it were a little more conventional. Sure.

You know, and I guess that's kind of like, it's almost like the problem with like, not the problem with, but it would be like what Gotham did. Where it was like, what if we told this story straight from Jim Gordon's perspective

and then eventually like peppered in DC characters? Deep cut. Yeah, I don't know. Our DC cop procedural on Fox. One thing that's interesting is to have Westworld paired with succession right now on Sunday nights on HBO. I'm sure you and I,

we still have like a. romantic attachment to Sunday nights on HBO as basically one of the defining table setters for this whole era of television that we've had. I still pay attention when HBO is like, we're launching an hour-long drama on Sunday nights. I'm like, I need to sit down and take notes and like really give my attention to this. Yeah. Yeah, it's still, it's weird.

It's like even if it's not the best of the best, it still feels like the most prestigious slot to be in is to be in that nine or ten Sunday. night thing. Even though the last thing they launched in that category was here and now. Sorry, I'm not familiar with that. Literally not familiar with that. Let's talk about succession. Andy and I previewed it on Thursday's show. Don't have like a ton more to add. I'm curious to know what you thought. I know because like I think you were like, I thought people really like this, but like you said you watched a little bit ahead and so we don't want to spoil anything to people. I've seen the first couple episodes. I won't spoil anything that happens in the second.

Again, we knew people were really into this. And I do. think it's really well made and acted and written and I think it's doing interesting things. I just think it really says something that it took me multiple tries to get through both episodes. And it's not really a fault with the show. And I am getting more into it. But, you know, it's a show about amoral to immoral, incredibly rich people. Cutting each other's throats repeatedly. And also, because they're all terrible, I don't want any of them to win. I will say I was kind of persuaded by the actor who plays Kendall with Jeremy Strong. Okay, brain part there for a second.

But he did an interview with Vulture that actually made me really interested in the show because he just comes across as an incredibly smart and thoughtful and prepared guy. He did a lot to say about the show's themes and capitalism. One thing I actually noticed about this show that I feel like is to its sort of moral credit, but might actually have something to do with why I wasn't pulled in, is that it's a show about incredibly wealthy people that is shockingly light on conspicuous consumption. Like, it's not like billions, basically. Exactly.

Like Billions right now acts, one of the main characters is living in a glittering glass box in the sky. They pull in Salt Bay and Wiley Dufrane. And it's so like, look at these assholes, but also look how fun these assholes life is. And that's what Brian told Simmons, Brian Coppomen told Bill, like, Billions is my, like, repository for everything I'm interested in. Like for me and David are. And you can feel how passionate they are. And this is, they have a very obvious distaste for the family that is, coupled with, they do build them out as complex and interesting people with overlapping priorities.

Succession you're talking about. Yes. I think it's really interesting that the show is very enclosed. Like, the first couple episodes basically take place in, like, a family home that is obviously the home of a wealthy person. But, again, does not look particularly fashionable or covetable or interesting. I did not look at it and think, I want to live and spend time in that house. Right. Then there, I guess this isn't really a spoiler because the first episode ends with the medical

emergency, but the second one basically takes place entirely in a hospital. And so you don't really see them out and interacting with the world in a way that, you know, is very unglomerous. Like, even the richest person's experience of a hospital is still a sterile, awful hospital, which, again, I think it's maybe the right move for the show to do. But I don't know. There's just something preventing me going totally all in, although I am increasingly intrigued as I make progress. It's interesting because it's shot in the style of and comes to us via Adam McKay, and it's shot in the style of Big Short, even though Jesse Armstrong is largely, I think credited as the creator, writer, show, or a person.

And, you know, one of the criticisms of the Big Short was that the people who we are quote unquote cheering for could also be described as, if not culpable for the crash, at least giant beneficiaries of it. and they're somber kind of like, huh, we really did that. And I still think about like the Christian Bale character, the end card for him that he's shorting the water market basically now as like this chilling kind of like to what end. You know, and we're supposed to sort of be into it because he was right.

But at the same time, it's like, did any of these guys do enough to stop it? And is it the very fact that they can short this thing? part of the problem with this economy. And the show doesn't do that, which again, might be something that's almost subconsciously off-putting. Like, you bring up the camera work, which is this very jittery handheld. Weirdly, the show, it reminded

me the most of it was Friday Night Live. So you get that Peterberg. Absolutely. I'm literally just right on the edge of like, was this improvd or is this just really well written and then improvved and then written again? Or like, it was, it has that like, it's a very interesting style. But even like the color

palette, it's not glossy. Like Billions is glowing and everything is white or technicolor, and you just get lost in this world, and the camera movements are very confident and sort of, not static, but not, like, handheld the way succession is. And I feel like that goes towards making this not aspirational, but then what you're just left with, at least to start, is these, like, incredibly loathsome people. Like, Kendall just has this gaping hole of insecurity. Kieran Kulkin is being Kieran Kulkin, the sister. I actually think, she's the most compelling.

Although, like, nicknaming someone Shiv, which I'm not sure is an acceptable abbreviation for Chivan is like really subtle. I know. Also, like the Black Sheep cousin is, I like the role he plays once he's inserted into the family. But it's like he needs a minimum wage job at this theme park. But also he can book a same day flight to New York for a birthday party that the mom knows about, even though her dad doesn't speak to the person's birthday party. That was a little like... TV logic there. Yeah.

All right. So we're both pretty, you know, we're sort of like tentatively circling succession. I think I'm a little bit more in than you, but I understand it. I don't dislike it at all. And also Justin Charity, we should mention,

wrote a great piece for the ringer about it that made me want to push on further and like it as much as he does. Yeah, because he was talking about how it's like a pure Trumpian piece of art. Like not in the sense that it's made from his sort of, you know, essence, time. I mean, it's not about Rupert Murdoch, but it is about Rupert Murdoch.

Yeah. All right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, and then we're going to come back and talk about Michelle Wolf. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Philo. Say goodbye to expensive TV bills. Philo is the simple, powerful app for watching TV. Get access to more than 35 of your favorite entertainment channels like Investigation Discovery, HGTV, AMC, VH1, MTV, A&E, Nick, Own, BT, Discovery, and more. Plus get live TV, on demand and unlimited recording so you can save as many shows as you want, all for only $16 a month. That could save you about $100 a month on your TV bill. There has never been a better deal.

Philo is the cheapest way to watch all your favorite television. Plus, it's cord-free, commitment-free, and hassle-free. You can also save shows and share shows with your friends. Start with your free trial instantly with just a phone number, no credit card needed, available on Roku, Android, and iOS with more devices coming soon. Don't pay for broadcast or sports channels. watch, visit go.filo.com slash the watch. That's go. p-h-i-l-o.com slash the watch or text the word the watch to 7-4-456. Okay, Allison, I guess we have another talk show. And I don't even know if it's a

talk show at this point. Just another one. Yeah. I think talk show would indicate it's an interview show, but Michelle Wolf's show is not an interview show, but it is built in this sort of style of, it's basically late night. It's like a stand-up, a topical stand- end-up show that takes place on a late-night set. She described it as more like a variety show than a talk show, which I think is definitely accurate. There's sketches, there's parody commercials, there's desk bits, there's the, instead of an interview with a guest who's like promoting a movie or something, it's just her riffing with

another comedian. Her whole thing is that she wants it to be entertaining and joke-centric and funny as opposed to issue-centric the way her competitors and fellow Daily Show alumni, basically like the prevailing trend in late night has been explicitly political, and she doesn't want to shy away from that. I don't think you could ever accuse what the break has turned out to be, to be, you know, Jimmy Fallon-esque. But I also think she clearly chafes at the burden to constantly be, like, taking down or attacking the Trump administration. So you talked to Michelle. Did you talk to her before or after the White House Correspondents Dinner? After.

After. Did you get the impression that Michelle Wolves experienced at the White House House Correspondence dinner impacted her perspective on the show because it's inevitably going to impact at least initially the perspective of the audience. I mean, it sounded like she's always wanted to do this, you know, joke first, politics, second approach. I do think it's fascinating that she was catapulted

onto the national stage via a very explicitly political platform. She literally became news. And it is interesting to immediately segue from that into let me make silly Amazon jokes and do Amazon Echo parodies about lunch meat. Yes.

I do think it's going to be kind of an uphill battle for her. Although, again, she's like totally comfortable talking about things like the Roseanne tweet. It's just, I think she understands

where the current expectations for audiences are at and she wants to undercut it a little. It's also just insanely impressive that she was able to do both of those things at the same time. I mean, I just, if the format of the first episode

is the format going forward, which I assume it is, it's impressive that she can come up with like 15 minutes of stand-up material. Because it's different than reading jokes off of a cue card. Like she's doing like a stand-up routine and you can tell that the jokes are... And it's a full 10 to 15 minutes.

And that is a lot of stand-up material. It takes most comedians like Louis C.K. and his prime basically generated an hour of new material a year. And everyone was like, that's insane. And this is someone doing 10 to 15 minutes a week. I do think it's got the classic Netflix thing where like because there are no commercials, It's, I think the first episode was 27 minutes and the second episode was like a full 30. And to offer a different example, I think last week tonight is about the same length.

But like Sam B is a tight 21 minutes and a full third of that is like a field segment with someone else in the camera. Okay. So you brought up Oliver and Sam B and I guess I'm curious if you could make the case, but I also am curious as to what you think of the proliferation of this many shows in this style, of this like talking head, single, talking head kind of comedy, but politically charged comedy, sort of why would I watch Michelle Wolf when there's also these other things? Just out of, like I'm saying.

I mean, for me personally, I am drawn to her sensibility. She had an hour-long HBO special called Nice Lady. That is phenomenal. Like, one of the, one of the main takeaways I got from just talking to her is what an insanely hard worker she is. So, like, not only did she do the White House. correspondent center and launch a TV show inside of a month. In between that, she ran a 50-mile ultramarathon on the Bonneville Salt Flats. Yeah, that was like the most, I was like, what? Yeah, and she

barely talks about it. I think she mentioned on Nicole Barrett, which is how I learned. And then I was like, hey, so this happened. And she was like, yeah, whatever. Like, it's my therapy. And then just moved on to a different topic. But, so she does that. But the nice lady is something that, apparently, once she already had the whole hour written, she decided that she wanted to do a hundred full run-throughs before she recorded it, and I think you can really tell. We talked earlier about John Mullaney and how precise he is.

And I think she doesn't come across as quite as polished because she doesn't perform in a literal suit and tie every time. Yes. But she does come through as like she has worked on this and finessed and she has an incredible command of the stage. And I do think like she literally has a distinctive voice, but I'm drawn to this because I'm interested in her perspective, what she does.

Right. it's an interesting point for Netflix. It feels very much like great. Another like eight hours of content that we can put up in these blocks or whatever. Obviously, it's going up weekly, which is another little chip against the, it only is this binge model where we're only going to put up stuff in this in blocks, right? So she's going to put up an episode a week. Yeah, she's going to put up an episode.

It goes, it also, it's interesting. It's a late night show, quote unquote, but it goes up Sunday. at 12-01. So, like, if you're up really late on Saturday, you can watch then. But, like, I watched yesterday when I was just, like, in my pajamas buttering around the house. It's, it's kind of going to sit there. And also, late night is usually, this is changing in the age of YouTube, but it's historically been very ephemeral. Like, when I read Jason Zineman's book about Letterman, when he talks about, like, going into the archives to, like, dig up old interviews because it's not considered normal to, like, preserve this stuff. It's not really,

It's not usually designed to hold up to like years' worth of hindsight and scrutiny. Right. So that's really interesting to me. I also, my pet theory, having seen a couple episodes that, as we mentioned, are kind of longer than the standard half-hour talk show episodes. I think if Netflix is already making this concession towards how people tend to watch these shows, you know, if the binge model maybe doesn't work, or they're just trying to subvert the model of, how late night shows work in general by bringing it to Netflix. People already watch late night in these kind of atomized, broken out bits. And because they're not explicitly trying to be as topical, I feel like they don't even

have to release them as like full episodes. Right. I realize that they want the flow of that. But Willa Paskin brought this up in her review. They basically do make up fake commercials to serve the purpose of actual commercials to break it up. Yeah. And I actually do like the comedy in those bits, but they wouldn't need to do that if they just released like three or four disparate things.

So they put up basically like a 15 to 15 minute segments kind of? Yeah, or they're already doing that by like releasing, like they release the desk bit ahead of time this week. And then last week they did the strong female lead sketch. So it's like, yeah, you break out your sketch, you break out your desk segment, you break out your monologue. And then if you really do want to keep this ever present in people's minds, now that Netflix is pivoting into like live release sort of, you could just release that in a steady clip throughout

the week. like there's no reason why you just need to dump it all in a half hour block on Sunday. So it's almost like you're making a show then for the viral consumption of it. But it's also like Netflix's TV on the internet. It would make sense for them, in my mind, at least, to conform to the internet's viewing habits.

So is the value proposition for Netflix then the reason why it's there? It's, I say to myself, I want to see what, like, I don't know anything about Michelle Wolf, let's just say. And I'm like, I want to see what that White House correspondence lady thought of X this week. And then I go and then I'm like, well, I'm on Netflix. I guess I'll watch 13 reasons why, which, you know, that would be quite a come down from Michelle Wolf. But that's sort of like, that's what they want, right? Is either they want time spent on service. Or they want, you're already there for 13 reasons why, because that's why people know about Netflix as their scripted series.

And people are currently leaving Netflix to get their unscripted stuff. And Netflix's a stated mission. I briefly interviewed one of their BPs. This is what I wanted to talk to you about, too. And he explicitly told me, we want to be everything to everybody. And that means, you know, this isn't maybe naturally in our wheelhouse, but it means we need to at least experiment. And I should also note that Michelle Wolfe's show is actually the first of two scripted shows that they're launching, both with Daly Show alumni, which is her predecessor at the White House Correspondents Center, Husson Minaj, is also doing a show, which at least I've heard anecdotally is basically, like, the way she's like, I don't want to be topical. his show I've heard is shaping up to be a little more like intensively researched a docu-series like and topical. Okay.

That hers is not. Like the Wyatt Seneca show or just kind of like... Sort of yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I don't know like any in-depth details, but it's interesting that they're ordering like complimentary talk shows that are going to be launching within a year of each other. Like they're clearly deciding that this is a space they want to be in.

And obviously they've had some unscripted hits. They have nailed it. They have Queer Eye. And I also think Queer Eye is interesting in that they basically broke up the first season in two. And so the first quote unquote season dropped eight episodes in February. And they're dropping season two, which apparently they shot at the same time as season one in June. And it's this weird concession to like, okay, we want to just drop things in blocks. But also it helps keep this show in people's minds if we don't drop it once every 18 months.

So we're just going to save a little bit and then we're going to drop it later. And that way everyone is talking about Quirai all the time. How does Netflix sustain Michelle Wolf after you and I are done talking about it? And after your piece goes up and everybody's Michelle Wolf pieces go up and everybody does their like, Michelle Wolf is the show is a pretty good episode. Joel McHale. Like when you mentioned Joel McHale and your piece, I was like, I forgot that that existed. I mean, it is not shown up on my homepage.

I guess I don't watch. I think I watch a fair amount of comedy on Netflix, but obviously not enough so that it gets above Fowda, which has been on my own page for... I mean, that's the challenge, right? I mean, Michelle Wolfe is not actually their first for a into talk show. They had Chelsea, which they launched... Chelsea basically looked and acted

exactly like a talk show on ABC or CBS was. It was thrice weekly. They had panels of guests. It was very topical. Which came after the original Chelsea idea that was like Chelsea... A docus series. Yeah, right.

Out in the world. I watched maybe two or three episodes when it first launched, and then I never thought about it again. because I wasn't watching it, Netflix knew to drop it from my homepage. I honestly don't have an answer to that question because at least to me as a regular Netflix user, I feel like Netflix, because they have such limited space, it's in their interest to be like, okay, here's the one weekend. That's 13 reasons why is the big thing everyone's talking about it,

and then we can cycle it out and replace it with the next thing. Right. I'm guessing they're not going to keep Michelle Wolf at the top, like every single time. Sure. Drop something. Right. So they argue that the algorithm. Yeah, the algorithm. Like there was know basically like what you were you said in your pieces the quote was like we we are confident that the algorithm will surface this for the people who want to watch it routinely so that like they know episode four episode seven episode 11 but it does seem to be the challenge of this thing is if you don't have any human curation of that going on that you are basically a slave to other people's habits and then you i mean i guess that's the great

equalizer? I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure, I'm not sure how I feel about it. It seems like I would be very curious to know what people who are making things for Netflix feel about whether or not Santa Clarita diet got enough of a push. You know what I mean? Or it's just the fact that they made it, the push. And then after that, it's really, hey, does anybody else offer you a hundred and 90 countries' worth of people being able to watch your television show? Yeah, and that's, I feel like that's been much more discussed when it comes to indie films. I think the consensus is much more that those get buried. But I definitely think it's an operative question for TV shows. And I did ask, I also talked to two of her writers. And I was like, what are the conversations like when you're

just designing her in this weird new kind of viewing experience? And they were basically like, at a certain point, we just had to stop agonizing about it. And make the show we're going to make. Funny's funny. Right. I've watched old SNL sketches before and they were still funny like months or years later, we just have to trust that funny is what's going to win. Right. Interesting. All right. Well, we'll keep watching Michelle Wolf, Allison. Thank you so much for joining me today. Andy is not on it on Thursday, but we may have a special guest, which I'm pretty excited about for Thursday, and some music on Thursday. So that's pretty cool. Until Thursday, thanks for listening.