The Watch - The Top 10 TV Shows of 2023

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Chris and Andy remember Andre Braugher, famous for his roles on ‘Homicide’ and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine,' who passed away this week (1:00). Then they reflect on the state of TV in 2023 and how we seem to be at the twilight of peak TV (9:00), before ranking their 10 favorite shows from the year, including ‘Full Circle,’ ‘The Gold,’ and ‘Daisy Jones and the Six’ (41:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Did you know about one in three people with Plexeryasus may also develop source. psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, It's the most wonderful time of the year.

It's an agree with! That was beautiful. Bing Crosby up in this piece. Bing Bong. What's up, man? How are you? Good to see you. First of all, you always turn it on for the mics.

I love it. I turn it on for the year-end episode, which is what we're doing here. We're doing our 10 best shows of the year. San Sam as male this year, which is a shame. We love Sam. He wasn't able to do it this year. I think it reduced our conversation about the idol by a. at least 80%.

That's my prediction. That's my prediction. The thing is, Sam, the funny argument that we had with Sam last year about intentionality and judging what's on the screen

versus what's not on the screen, I spent a lot of time thinking about what wasn't on screen in the Idol, if you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Because what could they possibly have left out?

Oh, you mean, like, you think there's a deeper director's cut? Or I thought you meant like other... Release the Levinson cut. I thought you meant like other, like, her nightly toilet, like her brushes we know about, but like were there other things that we needed to account for?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, look, I think the best thing we can do is we can... The far away look in your eyes tells me that the idol is not in your top ten. It's so nice to be this far away from it. Look, I think the best thing we can do to honor Sam's absence this year, and we love him, we wish him nothing but the best. This was an amicable conscious, hopefully just one year uncoupling. That's what I hope.

the best thing we can do to honor his memory. I hope our lawyers can figure it out. That's all I'm going to say. I think we're doing his spirit right because, one, I'm going to be incredibly combative with you and cut you off as soon as you start. Two, Julia Roberts is joining us later in the show. Do you think that, much like Hunter Biden,

Sam is going to hold a press conference outside of the studio? It would not surprise me. It would not surprise me. Okay, before we get into our top ten, And what we're going to do is, as usual, Andy and I and Kaya have our top tens. We're going to chat about them. Kaya has requested to do her top 10 as a list separate from the discussion. But I would hope Kaya, if there's overlap shows and you want to chime in and say,

I really love the idol going out. Well, my list is like the one true correct list. And so I will reveal at the end. That's that Kaya should talk. Do the correct list. That's that Loyola, Merrimount, trash. we are all used to. She's just hovering above the fray.

We're just going to beat each other senseless in the muck, and then she's going to win out. So we're going to do a little bit of a broad conversation about the year in TV. But before we do, Andy, some really, really sad news, which is this week, one of my favorite actors, full stop to say nothing of television actors, Andre Brower passed away at the way too young age of 61.

He passed away after a short battle. It seems like a short battle with lung cancer. And it was just really a gut punch. He had obviously grown into this kind of lovable comic actor that many people were familiar with from Brooklyn 9-9 and the long run that that show had. He was also on men of a certain age, which was sort of a dromedy with Ray Romano. But for Andy and me, I think I can speak for you. Always.

He will always be Detective Frank Pendleton. On the tragically not streaming television show, Homicide Life on the Street. Yes. And I just wanted to say this about Brower. So, like, I think I was aware of him in, you know, maybe starting with glory. He's been in some, some, my favorite genre movies, like primal fear. He was a pretty stable, much a staple of network television in some way or another over the last 20 years. But his performance on homicide was really something that I have only experienced once, which is you would tune into homicide. Started in, I think it debuted after the 93 Super Bowl, right, and ran for seven seasons. It was a little bit, I think, the seasonal orders and when it was airing, but it was a staple of, like,

my late high school life was having homicide on. I've seen other people say this. It's not an original thought, but you would tune into homicide to watch Brower the way you would tune into a Bulls game to watch Jordan. Yeah. You would tune in regardless of who they were playing,

what the result was, because you wanted to see the performance. I don't know that there has been four or five people I could say that about with television since then. You know, like, you think about, like, some of the most awe-inspiring things, like McConaughey on True Detective

or Claire Dane's on Early Homeland or something like that, really. I really just want to see what this person cooks up this week. But Brower was must-see television in and of itself. Yeah, for me, I feel like it was talked about even in a different way

because I remember, so the show premiered when you and I were, like, about to turn, we were 13 turning, it was 93, right? So we were about to turn 16, so we were watching TV and stuff, but I remember... I remember... Yeah, but you also had all that travel baseball to get to get to. A lot of fungos to hit.

Luckily, you took some time off the diamonds to watch on this street. You were the coolest 15-year-old in the tri-state. No, but I remember growing up, so a couple years before this, but there would be shows like moonlighting, which I eventually watched a little bit of, and I remember being... The way grown-ups would talk about it, made it clear that there was something that was like electric or adult on this show that I wasn't, I don't know if they told me I wasn't ready for, but it had this feeling of being very adult and very like, like something was sparking, something potentially almost flammable. And that's the way people talked about Andre Brewer's performance on the show. And that's what it felt like when you finally tuned into it. It was absolutely tactile to watch him come off the screen. People didn't give performances like this on broadcast.

television shows. Certainly not shows that a network like NBC thought of, intended to be just sort of a long-running police procedural, right? Now, David Simon was the co-creator of the show. He went on to make the wire famously. He wrote the book. It was based on Tom Fontana. Yes, he didn't create the show, but he was based on his book.

He became involved in it, and that was his first entree into TV writing. So maybe he had different hopes and dreams for what it could be, and Fontana definitely doesn't play by anybody's rules. But NBC kind of wanted it down the middle police show, and nothing could be down the middle with that guy. Barry Levinson directing it like it was a frigging Cassavetti's movie

and one of the best ensembles ever put together on television. I also love reading about the people who made the show talking about when they realized they knew they had

an enormous talent in Andre Brower and they would write these speeches for him because he could do anything and they would get to set and then he would give one look on camera

and they would tear up the speech. Yeah, because it's like why do you need it? He doesn't need they didn't need to do anything. Yeah. God, he was good. So as Andy mentioned

it's criminally unavailable on streaming. I will say that the box set, last I checked on major retailers, the box set for homicide is relatively affordable. And honestly, a situation like this and all the things that are happening with our current media landscape is making me a little bit kind of falling into the fantasy camp of physical media matters. I think it was from Sam's movie Leave the World Behind. Actually, that's right. It's true. I need to be in my bunker with my homicide box set. Most people will tell you that the crowning achievement of Browers' time on homicide is Three Men and Edina, which is this kind of one set episode. Would you call that a bottle episode? I always know because it doesn't... I mean, the term is used so casually now that, yes, it applies in terms of the way people think of it. It was a very focused episode.

Traditionally, it would mean a place that didn't leave one location. It's Kyle Seekore, Andre Brower, and Moses Gunn in an interrogation room for the entire episode, pretty much. That's about it. It's pretty incredible. But if you are searching around on the internet and you happen to find some way to watch homicide hint hint, let me recommend the episode Every Mother's Son from season three, which is one of my favorite homicide episodes anyway,

but is a different side of the Pembleton character at a certain point and is just an incredible piece of television. So he will be sorely and deeply missed, Andre Brower. And now let's get into our best of the year, 2023. the year in television 2023 usually here we have something of a

an oration from Sam from where he sees things going and what happened this year I wanted to ask you a question that sort of speaks to your unique position where you're a former critic who is now working as a writer in Hollywood

is it possible to accurately evaluate this year given the strikes like is there and that says nothing about like what got delayed or what got pushed off or maybe what productions got interrupted and then completed. But do you feel like it's impossible to separate what we watched this year with how it was made

and what happened behind the scenes? I think it is possible and I think it's important. But it's a good question to start with. There is absolutely no doubt that our offerings for the last quarter for Q4 of 23 were diminished. We know there were very public maneuverings, of the calendar, HBO Move True Detective, out of its fall debut into a January debut. There are others that are slipping my mind right now, and there are others that we didn't even know about that may be deep-pocketed in terms of both money and content companies like Netflix. They may have

started rearranging things off the grid before we even knew about the announcement. So there's no question that there were fewer shows at the end of the year. And I think people are responding to that. And I think it makes sense, considering how much airtime or headspace the structure took up even in this sort of casual fans' mind, it's natural to connect that, that, oh, this was sort of an off year or a weird year, or a weak or diminished year, and it's because of the strikes. I think it's important to counter that. TV works in, like all media, like it's a cycle of, you know, it's about a two-year lag,

sometimes more, sometimes less, and like, you know, famously the bear, I think they filmed the pilot in February of 22 and it was on the air, breaking records for FX on Hulu that summer. But generally, in terms of development, production, everything, there's a lag. And certainly in terms of when things are being green-led, or even the idea is first originally cooked up by a writer or a studio or a pod or whatever the case may be. Pod meaning like a producer's pod, not this pod. Although our ideas are golden and we're looking for the right strategic creative partner.

We'll just throw that out there. Which is weird because we also run AMC. Yeah, but we believe in the... You know, there was those old, the congressional rules. I forget the name of the rule. It's like Bob Backish. I'm an arms dealer. You know? That's what we're going.

Yeah, we're trying to get in front of the market. Yes. In the industry. So I say all that to remind people that what we are seeing now is because of decisions made in 2020, 2021. Yeah. The contraction and the sort of painful changes that we're feeling were already in place before the strikes. The strikes are in many ways a result of things that were already happening and trends. and the real existential concerns of writers and actors

about how those trends were going to continue to affect them going forward. So I have concerns, and obviously I have concerns as a participant in this great marketplace of ideas, but also just for the sake of this podcast, like as podcasters, critics, and fans, I have concerns about where things ended up this year, what we got and what it says about where we're going. I think I might be more concerned about next year.

Oh, well, sure. I mean, what I mean to say is, we're moving in this way. I think that the effects of the shutdown will be felt almost more next year maybe than they were this year. Who knows? I mean, like, I think this year was more about scheduling. We actually, I mean, like, just anecdotally you hear about the backup of facilities that people need, post-production facilities that people need. A lot of stuff on the runway. Actors being triple booked because they, you know, have shoots that were like delayed because of the strikes. So now it's like we have to move this person in and out.

So we'll see what happens. I'm nowhere near as connected as you are when it comes to having conversations with people who actually make this stuff but it does I'll be very curious. The fact that for instance we talked about this, HBO's coming soon to HBO

montage that we discussed a couple weeks ago which had what will be the final season of curb your enthusiasm quote unquote because I never really believe that but sure it's coming in February to detective industry but then quickly moved to and in 2025

White Lotus and these other things. So we'll see. This kind of dovetails nicely into the second question I wanted to ask you, which was, it's not even a question. It's more of a comment. When I was looking for a theme to the year, especially to my list, I saw a lot of melancholy goodbyes.

Yes. Both to shows that we love, and in that sense, characters that we've grown very attached to. but in the back of my mind I wonder a sad goodbye to a mode of making TV and a style of TV and a bravery of choice with TV now I am very happy with my top 10 list I have a top 24 list

and just like just like with movies I often find that the 5 through 10 is more interesting than 1 through 5 and 10 through 20 is more exciting than 1 through 10 Like there is more of like a variety and a kind of wildcard eclecticism to the deeper you go into your list. But I think you and I will have very similar tops of our lists. And several of those shows will have ended this season, this year. Yeah.

And I think it's not just, I mean, I don't think it's spoiling anything to say. I think our top four or five are pretty closely aligned. And I think they're actually pretty chalk. Am I using that right? Yeah. in terms of the larger critical discourse. I'm very tradwife in my picks here. And I'm interested in that.

As people who, we're often on these mics being like, oh, it was nicer when everyone liked the same stuff. I mean, we kind of did this year. And I don't know whether that's because these things were so exceptional, although I think you could very strongly make that case, or if it's because the drop-off in terms of ambition or even quality was that stark. I'm not sure. We've been living in an era,

and we've been podcasting through an era where I wonder whether we'll look back and be like, we didn't know how good we had it. It's very possible. And that we didn't know that a lot of the shows that we loved were essentially like,

not vanity projects, but that whole idea, the HBO model of it either needs to have viewers, buzz, or awards, and some combination of the three is the best. Yeah,

that's FX2. And that's FX2. As those companies get subsumed in larger corporations as their editorial independence maybe starts being reined in a little bit which I don't have any information about that would never have been suggested that it's the case

but you know succession a fairly expensive show to make right and or a fairly expensive show to make we can go through the list of things that are it's not cheap to make TV you know you need a star more and more it's starting to feel a little bit more like movies where it's like yeah Nicole Kibman can get that made yeah but I don't know if if

the actor six rungs below her could, you know? I think, I'm worried that we broke something. And I don't mean, I'm not going to once again repeat. Not you and I, right, or not liable. We're breaking records. Yeah. Breaking minds with our dangerous ideas. See if you can put a metric on that, dog.

Subscribe to our Patreon. You'll really know how we feel. I'm concerned that we broke something in the industry, and there's a long list of things that the industry seems to have broken or self-sablish from ending the cable bundle to, you know, the self-inflicted wound, honestly, of the strikes this year. But that's not what I mean. What I mean specifically is in the dawning of the kind of early streaming, but more or less the sort of the golden age that, you know, people date from the Sopranos maybe to the, I don't know, the end of Breaking Bad or whatever the case may be, the best shows were also still

recognizably TV shows, meaning they were ongoing. They were not limited series or event series, meaning that if you look at the Rushmore that we all seem to have agreed upon of Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, and The Wire, all of them, in retrospect, have big stars in them. None of them were built on the backs of those stars. Those shows made the stars. Yeah. You know. Yes. And we have now reached a moment where the response to that, and this is also dovetails with the attempt to price.

to prioritize sub-numbers and establishing your business and growing shareholder value, et cetera, et cetera, when all in on, look what TV can be. It can have movie stars, you know, a trend that started with True Detective on HBO. Or it can have special effects and genre reach like any high-budget movie. You end up with Game of Thrones and Wheel of Time and Rings of Power and all that stuff. it's been well covered by the media and by us that everyone coming out of this strike and looking down these strikes and looking at an era of potential consolidation are like, oh, we should make TV again. Let's get back to basics. Let's make TV shows for right down the middle of America and people love their stories and their characters. But it seems like we skipped some memory of how this works because those shows that I just named don't fit any algorithmic box. They don't scratch some corporate it. they don't come without risk or a little bit of fear about whether this is going to work or not. That's not how any of them started.

And frankly, that's not how Game of Thrones started either. It's how it ended. And everything that came after Game of Thrones, including House of the Dragon, seems to have taken its existence and inspiration from the end of Game of Thrones rather than the beginning. So I see on both sides of my career a move towards let's make traditional TV again. But without any of the sort of infrastructure? Not even the infrastructure. is very worrisome, and that's another thing that the strikes were about. It's not the

infrastructure. It's like, oh, let's just make, let's make hospital shows again. Let's go back to the sort of the broadcast model as opposed to let's make ongoing series that grow and build and give people that sense of comfort, home familiarity,

and regular excitement that TV always has given us. You know, even the HBO thing, like we both really like Perry Mason and I don't know if it made any of our lists, but it was certainly close on mine. It was a very expensive show.

I still don't know if it made sense for HBO. It felt like sort of them flailing at stars and was going to be Robert Downey Jr. or whatever. But it was an ongoing show that could have or should have if it had been managed differently, run for a long time. And Succession, other than industry, what is coming back?

What are we returning to year after year in HBO? White Lotus, yes. Yeah. But that's investing in a vibe and a creator. and every so often, I guess, Natasha Rothwell or someone will pop up again. That's great. That's a success story, no doubt about it. But my main takeaway from looking over my list is like, I want to care about some of these people again. Yeah.

I want a TV show, and I want that not to be backwards-looking or pejorative. I want to grow with a gang again. And it feels weird that we just don't have that. Some of that, I think, is the simple fact that you're getting more and more bigger stars to participate in television. Yes, this is part of it. But they are not necessarily interested in signing up for five, six, seven years of a television show. Not only do they not interested, they have the leverage to demand that they don't. So even if it does get renewed, it involves a renegotiation and another payday.

But that person pretty much guarantees that only if it was like a supersonic hit, would they continue to do this show beyond two to three years, two to three seasons. So that's one thing. I think that there's a little bit of that. I think that there is. And then the version, if you don't, is retell. which we'll talk about in January, a success, super fun, but the Reacher isn't madman.

It's not trying to be, but that shouldn't be the only thing that works as a record. The boys did something that I think we've been like, they checks a lot of the boxes. It's entertaining, it's consistent, it's made stars rather than like recruited some big name to come in. I'm glad you mentioned. I look forward to it every year.

Yes. In the years that it comes out. And it is going into season four, right? So that is an example of something that I think has been made to last, but it is also an example of something that I think I hit my head up against, which is often with television,

you can feel how, how do I articulate this? Because I don't want to just say, you can hear the pitch in the room when you watch the show, but there is a kind of conceptual heaviness to a lot of TV that I don't know necessarily lends itself to longevity.

And this actually goes right into the next thing I wanted to talk to you about. Over the last couple of weeks, I've been listening to a lot of music from 2023 because there's been a lot of lists. And then every time I think I've got a pretty good idea of what my stuff is from the year, I find some other site with another list. And it turns out there was 120 other records. You ready for my festive 50 dog?

I'm dropping that today. You are my John Peel. Are you dropping that today? You know. I've got fives or sixes. of people who every year are like where's Andy's top 50 list of best songs? It's one of my, it's one of my most treasured holiday traditions up there with the birth of Jesus Christ. It's really, so it's same really. A Jew is surprising yet.

I, so you get to the end of the year and then I had this sort of funny realization where I'm like, why am I doing all of my research on December 12th about music that came out this year? Yeah. And there is that feeling in music that I think actually. television is starting to feel like too, which is that there is so much of it, and it's coming out all the time, that if you don't grab it by the tail now, a lot of it will be lost to history.

A lot of it will be lost to the past. And there's something funny that happens to us now, where I think we both feel inundated with the amount of new shows that are coming on at any given time, but then feel as though that sheer volume sweep, like, wipes the chalkboard clean almost too often. And I don't know how to balance it because sometimes I'm like there's nothing on. I don't know what to do with myself. And sometimes I'm like,

I simply don't have enough time to watch the 20 episodes of For All Mankind that I need to watch to catch up so that I can be a part of this next season or, you know, I had to make a literal project in my life of watching Top Boy to be able to watch the final season. That's my, just, just me. Yes. Now, we obviously dedicate ourselves to being on top of this stuff and for casuals, if you look at the Netflix... Thank you for including me in that week. Well, you are, though.

I mean, all jokes aside, you watch television. I'm here. Two to three times a week. That's a fair amount of television, you know? But, like, if you look at, like, the Netflix data that got dropped this week, and you look at, like, what people are watching, there isn't, like, that feeling that...

I think people watch Night Agent, and they're like, that was dope. You know, and aren't feeling as much... That wasn't my reaction. anxiety about what's going on in television as we probably project. Yeah, I think that's fair. I know what my question was, but it was basically like, I feel like the pace of television. When you get to the end of a music year or the end of a movie year, it's actually not that hard to be like, oh, I'll watch six movies over the next two weeks and feel like I caught up.

Or I'm going to make a big playlist of music and just have that on in the car for the next three days and feel like I listen to music from 2023. It's fucking impossible to do that with television. Yes, and once we released for all mankind, like George Clooney and Gravity, that was it. It's not making our list. No matter what it does in season seven, I don't think it's going to crash our list again

because we are not engaged with it. And catching up again, catching back up is very unlikely, especially with a show where the episode lengths are quite long and there are multiple seasons to play with. I'm also here to tell you and our listeners that that's okay. Like, I think that at this point in our lives, lives and lives of this podcast, like we can only, we engage with what engages us. And it's okay to admit that. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that, but with the volume of television

that currently exists, there's just a lot for everyone, which is ultimately a good thing, even though there's going to be less. I think one of my main takeaways that I think is a little bit adjacent to your point is that some of what we got, I just feel like was in the wrong box. And I think that these are byproducts of this very strange time we've had of just almost unlimited growth without much consideration as to why. One thing about suddenly having to make profits again is people are going to have to make decisions. Some of those decisions are going to be very upsetting to fans or to us who want more creatively ambitious stuff. But I would like to imagine that after six to 18 months of shaking some stuff out, we can find a smarter way to make

the stuff that we want to make. In a weird way, I'm sounding like a personal hero of yours, Robert Eiger, the CEO of the Disney company, who's like, why did Elemental cost $200 million? Yes. I've seen Elemental. I cannot answer that question for you. So, which is a long way of saying, there was a justified reboot miniseries this year. It's not on my list. Was it on yours?

It's not on my list. It didn't work. And again, I'm using a broad brush because this is our end of the year podcast. There were good things in it. I hope they make more. I hope there's more Elmore Leonard on television. but I find that really striking that it had a bunch of things that we like

baked into a framework that seemed really smart and we were saying oh it's going to be like It's based on a novel you and I have probably read six times each And also I was like oh this is So Raylan's going to be our prime suspect or our Luther It's going to be a British type thing that's going to keep coming back But then you watch it and you were like oh no Raylan was a week to week show

Justified works better like that Like this isn't Somehow the sum of all these parts is less is less. And that's interesting to me. And for good or for ill, now again, I would rather have more justified than a lot of the other stuff that were probably not going to talk about this year. But the ease with which that was greenlit might not be as easy. And I don't think that's, in the case of justified, that's not great for me, because I wish, I hope there will be more. But I'm just trying to be positive and say that, like, there has to be smarter decision.

I think they're working. I think everybody is working their way through. that kind of stuff. Justified is a really good example of something that was a finely tuned engine that then I think was taken apart and put back together and they missed two spark plugs

and I don't know where they are. And I don't know what it was that is missing. It could actually, funnily enough, be the source material. It might be that Raylan is not a plug-in-play character to put into any Elmore Leonard novel. Right.

Which if you would ask me that, before I saw City Prime Evil, I would have been like, yeah, yeah, just put Raylan in any number of these books. And I'm like, oh, wait, maybe the Detroit cop, who is the star of City Prime Evil is important. Yeah. And maybe that guy has like a sensibility within that novel. And that it doesn't mean that it couldn't have been successful and that there aren't things to like about it. I think that is actually another thing that I've experienced multiple times this year, though, I was looking at my long list of things, like just stuff that I watched at least half of. And so many titles that I was so excited about based on the log line, the people involved, the trailer, justified, Class of 09, Yellowjacket season two, extrapolations.

Oh, yeah. You know, all these things, I was like, this, I'm fucking pumped for this. This is going to be great. And something was missing or something giant was missing. And that's, it's usually pretty easy with TV to be like, that's not for me. Like, on, in like, in just, if I just tell you what a show's about, you might just be like, nah, that's not for me. This is like this new experience where you're like, a ton of money and a ton of talent went

into something that just didn't work. And I don't know what to do with that because it's, it's difficult to sort of know where to point your ship when that, when that's happening once or twice a month. Yeah, God, that's a surprising list that you just named of shows that I'd forgotten about that seemed like they ought to have made more sense. Yes. Brian Tyree, Henry, and Kate Mara as FBI agents in a series written by the guy who brought us London spy is just, if you told me that it was coming out tomorrow, I would be excited for it. I feel that way about murder at the end of the world, too. And so one of the things that I think, this is a hard point to articulate, and it's also an easy point to articulate from the safety of this podcast studio, is I do think form matters. And I think that the most successful shows on my list and maybe just generally, in terms of an audience this year

are shows that not only understood the art but also structure and the form. It's something that is more, I think historically, worked better in movies because they're like, well, we have to have a beginning,

middle and end. There has to be a three-act structure. It has to be, you know, unless you're certain filmmakers who get celebrated for it, like it has to be kind of two hours-ish, right? Now, for a separate podcast, we can talk about how Marvel continues

to try to be like, no, there is no form. there is only Marvel, like the news yesterday that Captain America for is just going to write a new script and just keep adding to the movie they've already shot until they release it in 2025. But the sense of like, the shows that you mentioned are full of talent, full of good intention, full of some wonderful, exciting, sometimes really radical or interesting visuals and ideas. But they did not come together to my taste anyway in terms of a construct. television show, like just something that you want to invest in week to week for however long it may run. And people's mileage may vary in terms of like, I have the bandwidth to tune into nine hours of something that is just all over the fucking place. Because I just love to see

creativity like splatter paint. Sure. But Sam's not here. So we could say instead that like, you know, there are some things on my long list, like the adaptation of Dead Ringers. Sure. with Rachel Bies that I thought it was wild. I thought it was really cool. I think she's amazing. Did I finish it? Listener, I didn't. Maybe I will.

And maybe I'll be like, oh, I was wrong about that. That should come back. But it did not feel contained in a way that was satisfying me in terms of, and also in terms of satisfying the potential of it within its box. Now, there's shows we're going to get to, which we should get too soon, that like... All right, man. There's no clock on us. But like, one of the things.

that there's a feeling that I'm struggling to articulate because I don't know if we've ever said this exactly in this way before. Often when I talk about like my resistance at the beginning of shows is really just like my resistance to, like the one thing I hate about weddings is when you get in the shuttle to go to the next venue. I'm like, I don't know where I'm going. I don't know this, I don't know what this driver is. Is it going to be winding? Okay, Larry David. It is. It's one of my most Larry David things, but I hate wedding shuttles. Okay. And so I was just giving this as like a one venue wedding. Oh yeah, 100%. Okay. But also, also, it's one of my own So I just don't, I don't know. I'm like at that point,

I don't want to drive back over the hills to get to the hotel. Like, let's just, let's focus. Okay. My point being is not to say that that's the right way to be. It's that I'm a little resistant to drivers when I don't know where we're going, which is why I often struggle at the beginning of shows. And then I've talked about how when I trust the person, I'm like, take me, you land, you land the plane, man.

This is your, this is your thing. It's almost, instead, it's like what I'm trying to, what I'm starting to respond to is people who just have an almost uncanny sense of the physical space. Like, they know where the wall is. So they're backing up with their eyes closed, but I trust them because they're not going to go past it. They understand the dimensions of the vessel. They could parallel park a car they just got into.

Are you getting this analogy? I do, yeah. That's something that I was really struck by with a show that I'm eager to talk about because I just finished it late. But that's a beef take. Yeah, well, I just beef once. But, and we'll get to it when I think it's maybe on both of our lists. But like, I was dazzled by its use of, ultimately, of the time.

At first I was like, why is this 10 episodes? And then I was really impressed by the use of the space. Yeah. I think this idea that TV can be anything. Maybe it's four episodes. Maybe it's 40. We'll green light it in C. I don't know what the success rate on that is.

Well, you and I sound like two guys rolling on ecstasy when we talk about slow horses because I think it is a perfect execution of modern television. Pacing, depth of character, sense of humor, drama, expert writing, really, really, really top-notch writing. I've started to realize that there is a phenomenon, when I say a phenomenon, I mean, a pathology of mine. That is, there are shows on that I feel the need to kind of be aware of what's happening in case like something, huge is going to happen on something. So I will read recaps of that, even though I don't watch the show.

Wow. I'll just read the Vulture Recapers. That's like what I do with horror movies. Yes, this is a, that is, I was going to say, it's a phenomenon you share Robert Harvilla, like famously, like just reading Wikipedia horror synopsis just to see what it's about, but not, but not, uh, actually watching a movie. And let me say this.

There, you could do that with any show. It's, television is not pinching. You can usually just like read someone be like, and then this guy did this, and then this guy did that, and this was new, and they did this. The thing that makes television special is the writing. And for me, it's usually what I respond to is the dialogue,

and whether or not there's any sort of visual sensibility that's worth spending time with. And I think that for me, the writing of shows generally, the ones that didn't make this list or the ones that were on my long list, but didn't get into the top 10, there was something a little bit more wrote about the writing or there was something a little bit more predictable about the writing.

And I think when I find shows that feel like they have an individual, new, fresh, recognizable voice to me is when I get very fired up. Yes, totally. Maybe that's just as good a place as any to start with our lists. And also I feel like one of the things we're continually trying to find the balance of is that balance between shape and content, you know, and deliver. living on pleasure centers, but also surprising. For what it's worth, like, for every dead ringers that didn't make my list because it was all over the place, even though it was really cool, I feel like it's also worth saying, like, hijack, I couldn't bring myself to put on my list in the end. I don't know if you did, but like,

I think hijack is incredibly successful. I had a blast. We had a lot of fun talking about it on the podcast. When I got down to it, though, what I was thrilled with was the execution of an idea. Hijack is about like the experience of watching television. Yes. It's not necessarily like I'm going to take anything

from hijack and be like maybe I should be a better father. You know, like... Well, there wasn't a single thing about the show, element about the show that I thought was radical or exceptional. And so it didn't make my list.

That doesn't mean that the execution of it wasn't great and I wouldn't rather... Honestly, I would probably rather have five hijacks a year than, I don't know, do I want to commit to saying five hijacks over five dead ringers?

I don't know if I'm ready to say that. I definitely would have said it in front of Sam in order to watch the veins in his neck pop out. It's just something to consider that this is the balance of this. And when this much time is, when we're talking about this much time, that's the other piece of it, right? Like, I'm always more eager to recommend a wildly all over the place or even an ambitious failure in a movie than I am in a 10-episode season of television. Because I respect people too much. No, but because it's a bigger. it's a different relationship. It's a different commitment of time. You know, it's one sitting, and you can think about it as opposed to devoting a week or two to something and then feeling like, but I could have been watching hijacked. Yeah, right. Should we start with our lists? I think it's overdue. Okay. So we'll start at 10. Yes. And go up. And then when we get to overlap, I think we can discuss the show the first time it comes up and then we'll just mention where it is. I don't know if you have any of these, but I did want to say there are two shows that,

actually were in contention up until literally moments ago. No, like, I think I just changed it. Okay. But I ultimately couldn't commit to putting on the list because they're either not finished drive and finish watching. Well, we'll do some honorable mentions, and those honorable mentions can be unfinished business too, you know? Should I name them, or do you want to wait?

If you'd like to name. I was going to say, like, the curse. The curse is just sticking around with me. Like, it's pretty wild. And I would say that Emma Stone's performance is one of the top three of the year. Who are the other top two? Everyone else on beef.

Yeah. No, actually, Stephen Young, for real. But, no, I didn't make that list. Not Able? Come on. You come on. You fucking, come on. Scavengers reign.

So cool. Oh, I was going to say, is there a performance in scavengers? Yeah. Yeah. I thought the robot. I thought the lizard that, like, chokes bile into humans' mouths and controls their brains. Kind of like Able. It is true.

It's kind of like my guy. Scavengers rain, same network, maybe same shared universe. Scavenger's Rain may end up with a spot on this list if I was doing it, but I didn't finish the season. Okay. Do I have anything that's like that? I do not. I will also say that there are three shows. So Andy's and my list does not apply to Kai necessarily because I didn't ask her before this is scripted only.

Yes. Well, Kai didn't ask us because her list is supreme. But that's a great point to make. That was the distinction I made. If that had not been the case, I wonder whether how to tell our marketers or most importantly, 100-foot wave would have made it into the top 10.

So I guess I would just say that. It's like a cool little sprinkle on this case before we dig in. I kind of disqualified kunk on Earth for the same reason. I love that show, but it's a performance. This is all arbitrary. But I agree with you about how-to with John Wilson, which really probably would have made my list.

Okay, I think I'll save my I have something that really goes well with what we just talked about which is that I do too at 10. Forgive me. Forgive me for my 11th pick number 11. We don't have to talk about the titles. I just want to say because it dovetails with the Netflix data dump. My 11 was a split between Copenhagen Cowboy and Black Mirror.

And we will get more Black Mirror, which is great. I would bet my life that we are not getting more Copenhagen Cowboy. No. But those are two who did somebody at Netflix, especially Copenhagen and Powboy where it's like, did you guys know that you uploaded this? It's at Netflix. You'd be like Doug at Netflix hit the wrong button.

But just two really cool examples of what you can do with TV, both cinematically in terms of Nicholas Wenning-Ruff and directing Copenhagen Cowboy and like structuring it essentially like this, psychedelic four-hour, five-hour film, and Black Mirror, which is three novellas, essentially this season, most of which I adored.

So I just wanted to say that. That's a very special... It's also, you know, we used to talk about how HBO basically had a tenure track for people named David, where like Milch and Simon and Chase could just make things in perpetuity almost. I don't know if that, I would hope that's still the case.

it is worth pointing out that somehow some of these other services like Netflix, like Netflix is just Charlie Booker can make stuff for them. Yeah. I don't know if Nicholas Winding Refin seems to like struggle with staying, you know, really staying focused and working with people. I don't think the focus is the problem. I think it's like he then gives it to them and they're like, well, who said yes to this? Yeah, totally.

Okay. It's interesting. My bad. So your number 10 is what? Okay. So my number 10 is a good segue from what we were talking about because I absolutely cheated. I'm sorry, but I was just on Big Pick and I saw Sean cheat. And I was like, wow, you can just do this.

He does. He loves to... It's more about competitive advantage. Right. Well, number 10 is a fantasy special. But I came up with a reason why. So number 10 for me is Reservation Dogs on FX and Primo

on FreeV. Our buddy Shea Serrano show. The reason I lumped them together was because they were both half-hour shows that felt like home, which is a type of show that I will always respond to love and I worry for.

Resdogs, because it was one of the richest experience we've had on TV of the last few years, clearly because of its number on my list, I didn't think this season was as strong as the previous two. It doesn't mean it's not special. It doesn't mean it's not exemplary and I think hopefully hugely influential in terms of launching careers, both in front of the camera

and behind the camera, and just sort of widening the aperture of what sort of stories get championed on television. The show is masterful, and I love it. But also, honestly, at the end of the day, am I loving it because of its representation or if it's formalist tricks, or am I loving it because, God, I love this place and these characters.

I've never visited Oklahoma. I don't know any of them, but I feel like I love them and want to spend more time with them. And by the way, if we were doing our individual episode list, which I don't know if we put together, the Allora Dan and Ethan Hawk episode would be very high up on that list. Primo is on there because, you know, Primo should be a network television show. I mean, Mike Scher produced it. Shea loves those shows.

that Mike sure makes. I know it works. Our buddy, Concepcion wrote on it. Our buddy Jason Concepcion wrote on it, which is fantastic and great for those guys, and I'm so happy for them. And I know that it makes sense for Amazon's business model and free V

to have this type of entertainment on it. But I do feel like we've broken something here that this isn't just on NBC or ABC on Tuesday nights. It is just a warm, you know, instantly familiar. family sitcom that has finally defined and drawn characters and great jokes

and I was just happy to have it. I was happy to have it on. I felt great about watching, having more episodes to watch. And for as much as we talk about, I want recurring dramas back, like, give me more worlds. Give me these worlds. Don't just give me one-offs. Res dogs should be more than three seasons.

And Sterling came on and told us why it's ending and I respect his decision-making. But like, I want one of these shows or shows like this to run for seven seasons, please. I agree with you. Primo was right outside my top 10. Reservation Dogs is my number eight show of the year. Nice.

It was, I would say, probably best judged as a whole statement rather than episodically. I think that's fair. But that being said, two of the episodes of Reservation Dogs would be in like my top five episodes of the year, probably. I really loved the dazed and confused House of Bongs episode as well. It was just...

season two ended in a pretty definitive way and in a way that felt about as satisfying as like any show has ever concluded and then they did a third season and what the third season did was take the ideas and themes of the series and expand it across generations and apply it to different characters and kind of stitch together

a social history of these people like in this place and that I don't think can be underestimated it on a episode to episode basis, I completely agree with you sometimes. It was like, not flat, but like not up to its own high standards. But when it hit those standards,

it fucking shot through the ceiling for me. That does feel a little unfair. I think you expressed that well. Like, I'm comparing it to its own standard, not to other shows on TV. This is always complicated with shows where you're like, should I just judge the season

or am I judging the series? And do we give credit to something because of its past accomplishments? I think Red Dogs did something very, very brave and very, very interesting. And it maybe wasn't always the most, like, punch in the heart audience-pleasing highs that it routinely had in its first two seasons, but it still has a lot to love. And is it really important, I think, a piece of punctuation on the series of the whole. I don't know how you would describe it.

It wasn't an exclamation point, but it was definitely, like, written in italics. and I thought it was really cool the way they did it. So my number... So that's your 8, but we have to get to your 10. My number 10 is full circle. Ready to talk about that next. Steven Soderberg. That's my 9.

We can just get right into it. Awesome. Contemporary crime saga that, you know, even for old, old dicks like me and Andy, old private dicks, guys who have been, you know... Investigating... Investigating postal service fraud for decades. I could never pin this one.

down. It always surprised. It always, I mean, even, even like the, this is a great example of, you hear the log line where it's like, Sazi Pete's investigating Timothy Oliphant and Claire Daines's connection to kidnapping in New York City. It is that, but it is so much more and so different and so wild. And obviously with Soderberg behind the camera, so inventive in the way it told its story. And at a time when fewer and fewer productions,

actually feel like they are filmed and set in the place that is ostensibly their location or setting, this felt incredibly rooted in New York City and the New York City that you will see if you go to New York City today. And like in terms of the people walking around, in terms of what it's like in the Outer Boroughs and everything, just a fascinating, fascinating piece of television. And speaking of things, I'm not so sure we're going to get a ton more of these. just awesome. And really, honestly, like for as much as she got,

plot, it's for her performance in Fleischman, I thought Claire Danes is incredible in this. And it's just worth shouting out. Really great cast. Gerald Jerome's awesome in this, too. So where did this point up for you? Yeah, that's number nine for me,

so it's perfect timing. I agree with everything you said. The note that I would add was one of the things that I look for and that I love in any kind of artist's curiosity. And I think that that's, to me, one of the defining hallmarks of Steven Soderberg's camera is that he's constantly curious, he's constantly questioning, he's constantly looking around every corner, literally in the case

of his camera work, and he's doing his own cinematography here, and bringing us into places that we might not otherwise walk into. And Ed Solomon is the perfect partner for him in this. It may not be the best strategy for a perfectly airtight mystery plot, but this kind of curiosity and following leads, going down rabbit holes, makes for really, really engaging television. And honestly, that's the kind of crime fiction we generally like. I also just think the curiosity in terms of how characters might interact with each other, what overlaps there might be,

and also just curiosity and confidence in performers, whether it's Jim Gaffigan doing a dramatic turn or the British actor named Faldor Charma, who plays Garmin Harry, one of the great crime lords of modern-day fictional New York, or the young actors. like Gerald Jones or Shehey Cole, who I hope we'll see more of. I just, it's really cool that this got through,

and I think that you're right to frame it that way. In a perfect streaming universe where the money taps are still flowing, there should always be something like this, and I don't know if that's the case. So that was your number nine. My number nine is Lioness. I figured. I had to do it to him.

Taylor Sheridan is fantastic at first seasons. He is gifted. at first episodes, and I would say he is pretty brilliant at the first 15 minutes of first episodes. And this one grabbed me as soon as I saw the first episode. I know it also made you run for the hills. So

it may vary. It was the hospital scene in the second episode. I made it through the first episode. That's right. I forgot about that. I think if you had gotten to the end of this series season, I don't know if there's going to be a second season, I hope there is. You would be surprised by the feeling it left you with because while it has

some special forces corps like you got them there is a feeling of like and that was for what at the end of this season with all Taylor Sheridan shows there's extreme violence there is pontificating

there is you know maybe characters who seem to be reading from Instagram captions rather than like speaking but they are speaking in my language for some reason I really respond to the writing in these shows

and I just find them to be also very idiosyncratically paced and which is to say break neck pacing but strangely like in the middle of the season they'll just go for an episode

and a half of Dave Annabelle's surgeon who is Zoe Sal Daniel's husband in the show and like what it's like for him at home and like these strange little like trips down these side streets that television allows you to do that I wish more people would do with the flair that Sheridan does

and I just thought this is also one of those like how the hell did you put together this cast Nicole Kidman, Morgan Freeman, Michael Kelly, Dave Anabel as I mentioned but Zoe Sottie is amazing in the lead role. I think it's worth saying and every time I try to engage with the shared inverse

I am struck by how weird it is because it's the ghost in the machine. I mean he is a machine, he's an empire now, but he ultimately, for good or ill and maybe ill for some of his collaborators, it's him. and if he was interested in following something,

chasing someone's tail or chasing his own tail down, like he does it. Yeah. And I do think that that's something worth celebrating in the midst of these things. You know, there are examples of shows that we are going to maybe overpraise,

like I said before, the execution, you know, anytime you see the personal touch within that is the best of all worlds. It's worth mentioning for as much as Sheridan is literally the author of these things that John Hillcote directed a lot of this series and that's a serious dude.

Like he has real chops. And this thing, if you're like, oh, I miss when they used to make like body of lies and spy thrillers that felt really grounded. And it's just, it's lioness. Like, you should watch Linus if you miss that. I will say my concern, this isn't, I don't mean like in a concern troll way,

but like one trend that I am not loving and I don't want to keep beating up on one show in particular, one show that may make an appearance on someone else's list. I've been referring to it basically as the poker face phenomenon, but I think the Taylor Sheridan first is guilty of it as well, which is the, hey, look, remember the things you used to like? We're going to give it to you, but we're going to give it to you at four times the price point

with stars and talent attached that's going to make it come back every one to three years maybe. Right. Not every year. Now, this could be nonsense. Pokerface Season 2 is happening, and because of the nature of how long the first season was in production and when it debuted,

pokerface season 2 might come out one calendar year later, right? because season one was early 23. They could have a season two by the end of 24. So maybe it's the wrong show to use as an example of this. I mean, this sort of happened with Kingstown, and obviously, like, there was a lot of stuff. There's Jerry Runner's was at that point, like, also in demand, but then also was injured.

So, like, yes. And so for Lioness, too, like, I do think that has to be factored in. Now, I'm not the one writing the checks, but I do think in terms of just the relationship with audiences, something feels out of whack. When you do deliver something that people like, but because of the way you put the package together,

you won't be able to deliver consistently. I wonder whether, I mean, I don't know what Lioness did ratings-wise. I think it's on the Kingstown side of the Sheridanverse where it's pretty grimy. And I don't know if it's like a huge, it's not like a family favorite the way Yellowstone seems to have become or 1883 or 1923 did. But I will say that in much the same way that he has,

has found ways to like spin different Yellowstone stories around. The fact that it's called special ops colon lioness to me suggests that were he to want to do something with Nicole Kidman overseeing a different part of the special ops or whatever it is, he could. Well, the building in optionality is really smart. It's sort of a bastard cousin of what we were saying that Disney did where they were just like rename shows every three years. So to not avoid residuals. It's the same reason why the Bass Rees show with David O' Yewelo is called Lawman, Bass Rees.

Because you could just do another lawman. You could do a different lawman. Okay, so your number eight then? Yes. My number eight is drops of God on Apple. Had to do it to him. Everybody knew it was coming. Yeah, the Sommelier is here.

If you make a show... Could he talk to you a little bit about a pairing? How are you feeling? What do you usually like to drink at home? Do you like to drink at home? Are you drinking right now? If you make a show about wine and you said it, France and Japan, you're going to be on my top

10 list. So I am the ultimate the same way you are if you make a show about special ops and extreme rendition. You know what I mean? Like we all have our things. I think Drops of God was just an incredibly entertaining fantasy. Now, I use that word intentionally. Like, there are

no dragons in it. For people who didn't hear me talk about it before in the podcast, it is about a this is all fictional, but like a, the most renowned wine expert in the world dies and instead of leaving his incredibly valuable collection of bottles in a will. He basically puts his entire collection plus the rights to continue his best-selling guide into a competition between his...

The login for his stub stack? Yeah. It's a competition between his estranged daughter, Camille, who lives in France, and his finest student in Tokyo, which is where he had been living. And the show, films in Tokyo, of films in... in South of France. It films in Italy. It's in three languages, none of them expertly. I just really loved having the show in my life, and I hope they make more shows like this. This was on Apple, it's an international copro. I will make fun of you if you make a sumptuous show

about how Brie Larson saves society in the 60s. I will make fun of Noem but myself if they make a show about how really, really appreciating obscure grapes and their connection to family history makes the world a better place. Yes. We all have our things, and this was my. This was a nice show. I didn't finish it, but I did enjoy what I watched of it. Okay, so my number eight was reservation dogs.

Yep. So what's your number seven? My number seven, I feel like I should have put it one higher just for the symmetry, is Daisy Jones and the six. We, I think we talked about this show quite a bit on the pod over the course of the year. This is the adaptation of the best-selling novel. that is a fictionalized vibes only interpolation

of a Fleetwood Mac type rock and roll story about a working class band who crosses paths with a troubled wayward poet singer and they make a beloved incredible album and fall apart doing it. And this show got so many of the little details right that I found it really

moving, really compelling. It focused so tightly on the cast. And Riley Keogh, you know, obviously, maybe, I don't know if she'll be continuing acting now that she is the Queen of Graceland, but God, she was really good in this part. And so they nail the casting. They nail the music, which is historically the hardest thing to do. They correctly identified Blake Mills, who's kind of this L.A. Tunesmith who somehow connects the dots between one generation of, of Laurel Canyon Rock and the future generation. So you have a project that combines Jackson Brown and Phoebe Bridgers and kind of makes sense for the moment.

From Laurel Canyon to Atwater Village. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's across America. Depending what time of the day, that could be a very long journey. And if people who did like the show want to go back, I talked to Scott Neustadtur about it on the podcast. He and his partner, Michael Weber, adapted it. Will Graham helped show run it.

James Ponsel directed it. But the thing that I really keep coming back to is, yeah, were there aspects of, was it too fantastical? Were people too pretty? Was it too perfect? Did it not have any engagement with the actual moments in history that it was trying to document? Sure. But what it cared about, I think ultimately is the right thing, which is not just vibes, because the vibes were immaculate, but it's a show about the act of artistic creation, which is incredibly hard to articulate in scripted entertainment. And the, There's a moment in the show in the middle of the season when Sam Claflin is Billy Dunn, who's the lead singer of the six, and Riley as Daisy Jones, are basically locked.

I don't remember if they've locked themselves or not, in their producer, Teddy Price, who's played brilliantly by Tom Wright, one of my favorite performances of the year. They're in his mansion, and they're at each other's throats, and they're mad, and then they're interested,

and then they're drinking, and then suddenly, or she's drinking, and then suddenly there's a spark, and they make something. And the show is so committed to showing us that, something that you can't physically show, that I will remember that for a long time. As much as I'll remember just the little details

of like Camila Moroni and Suki Waterhouse and just the charm and affection I had for the time I spent with these characters. Yeah, you know, you mentioned something a couple of minutes ago. I think when you were talking about Primo and ResDogs where you're just like, I just want worlds, I just want to be. And this is one that, I think, because of the the framing device that they use,

which is essentially like there's a behind the music being made about this band. Yes, in the 90s almost. And so you already get some peaks into where things end and there's a lot of and then this happened. And then of course that was the last time I saw this person or whatever.

It made it feel a little bit more compressed. This show I thought was excellent. I wonder whether or not there was either a great four season and version of it or a great two-hour movie of it. This is right. This is a show that broke the rule that I said at the beginning, which is I don't know if it felt the space correctly or filled the space correctly. But what it was filling it with was good enough for me.

Yes, yeah. I really enjoyed this as well. So that was your number seven? Yeah. My number seven is the gold. That's my number six. Let's talk about it. So I knew this is going to happen. Without Sam screaming, I knew that you and I would become Borg and just be like one brain. Don't worry. Kai's coming in off the top road. Yeah. Number seven, the gold, Neil Forsyth's crime saga about the... And by the way, when we talk about these shows, I know people listen to the podcast might know, but I feel like we should say that's Paramount Plus.

That is on Paramount Plus. We can go back. We'll post a list somewhere on socials. We'll do the streaming service that it is on. The Gold is on Paramount Plus. It aired earlier in the year in England, and then it finally aired in the fall here. Neil Forsythes, Crime Saga, about the aftermath of England's largest ever gold heist and the people who try to

smelt the gold, sell the gold, launder the money that comes from the selling of the gold, buy real estate with that money, escape to Spain with the interest of that money, go to Lichtenstein and get arrested. It is a panoramic view of crime and punishment in England in the early 80s. It is about two England's at least.

Really? Yeah. They kept that part pretty low-key. It is one of two shows on my top 10 starring Jack Loudon, I will say, who gives me too. An awesome non-river Cartwright performance as a

as a Chancer kind of hustler, fence guy. I think he's living in Kent, right? I think. There's a lot of Kent. Are there two Kent's? It seems that way. If there are two England's, two of everything in England.

Yeah, but Jack Loudon, great. Hugh Bonneville, awesome, as the main police officer. Charlotte Spencer, Sean Harris. If you only know him as the dad in Paddington. Or from Downton, yeah. Let's focus on what matters most.

And Tom Cullen, who famously, Andy... Was not in Vikings? It was just one of the greatest things to ever step on the screen in Vikings. Sorry. Andy Tom Cullen was in Vikings and that he had... He was in Nightfall? Yes. K-N-I...

Okay. And it will return for another season, which was very exciting. Yeah, this is... I agree with everything you said. I loved having this show in my life. I imagine it will be a much different cast, but it will return for a... Partly. I mean, I think the cops will be back, but I think this is an interesting one, right?

Because we started the show talking about what homicide life on the street was to NBC and how a lot of the people involved in that pretty quickly migrated away from broadcast. They got some of their more artistic ideas or more, you know, just think lack of smoothest, bumpier instincts into homicide. And then Tom Fontana went and did Oz, which was famously bumpy. And David Simon made the wire. And they sort of fled from that model. and the gold kind of reminds me of that energy in that week to week we're saying,

this is prestige procedural. Like, I was under the impression that it was a one-season thing telling the story of one historical event. The show, thrillingly, does not end. And I'm kind of interested in this, both because I can't wait to go back to this world and these actors and these characters, but also I want to see if you can do this. Because we've had a couple of circumstances like this recently where we've finished a limited series. And we've been like, we all want well enough to be left alone. But at the same time, maybe there should be two East towns.

Like, they're two England. Like, can't we go back to Merritt Eastown? I was just going to say that this is, this for me is, I wonder if the gold is kind of Mind Hunter methadone, where Mindhunter was the prince who was promised to me. Now, I don't think that anyone could afford for David Fincher to do 96 takes of a television show scene and also rebuild sets when he doesn't like what something is doing. They could afford Carl Franklin doing it. But they should have. The gold feels like a more fleet-footed and like, kind of like, okay, like, what if we took some of the stuff that was happening there, like how crime was, you know, how modern crime

sort of emerged out of this and the building of a new London on the other side of the river and these guys who are trying to crack the old money mafia of this country, I don't know, there's something there. And I think there's still a lot of runway for the country. this story. I love what you just said. I don't think we mourned Mind Hunter enough, honestly. I think phrasing it the way you did is right. That's what we were promised and what felt like we got it. Two seasons were incredible. And it fell apart for the reasons that modern things fall apart, where you have galactic talent but also cinematic ego and it's expensive and it's unwieldy and you

can't guarantee it every year and who does it make sense for anymore anyway. The gold, in addition to the next show on my list, which you were referencing a moment ago, the Jack Loudon show. These are really, as much as I love these shows, slow horses is obviously more well-known and doing is more successful. I think that's objectively than the gold. If you're interested in the industry and where it's going, where it could go, I think you need to be watching both of them. I think the gold should be checked out, A, because it's excellent, and I've been recommending it to people, and then I tell them it's on Paramount, and they're like, ooh, that's the one I don't have, potentially. But I think they're trying something.

And if it works, I hope that we can import that. That's a really good point. I do too. I actually was reading about the Brad Engelsby show, the Task Force show with Ruffalo that's coming on. And your guy, Tom Pelfrey. It's HBO. It's HBO and Pelfrey.

I was like, yeah, this could be like, I actually thought like maybe a little of American gold vibes here. You know, like, what if they started doing stuff like this? But similarly, like, full circle is done. And it should be done. it came full circle. But Soderberg, Solomon, the cop, you know what I mean? Sure.

Like, like, okay. Postal service? What would that look like? Now, that isn't built for that. It was built to be limited. But, like, let's find some, I just, we're trying to talk ourselves towards a hybrid model, a more sustainable hybrid model for ongoing television. So your number six was the gold.

Yes. Okay. My number six is jury duty. This is from... Just like that, the Borghive fractures. That's right. Lee Eisenberg and Gene Stipinski's documentary's document. comedy about a man on a jury with a strange and hilarious group of fellow jurors.

And then eventually viewers of the show discover that it's something of a social experiment to see what this sort of main character will do when presented with obstacles to fulfilling his civic duty as a juror. And Stavinsky and Iisberg obviously cut their teeth in for the office, in the office. and I thought that this show utilized the documentary aspect of like docucomodies

or whatever we refer however we refer to those things like modern family and Abbott the idea of it being on film the best and yet still maintained that heart that I think made the office special

and that the office even had to grow into to be honest but there is something very sweet about jury duty and it's also hilarious and it's also cringe and it's also all these things. I thought it was a perfect little piece of television

and a really, really good idea executed as well as you possibly could have. And some of it is just like the miracle that the guy that they did it with is just the guy they did it with. I'm sure they could have... I've read a ton about how the casting process went, but you know, you could have had somebody

who was like not as good. Watch Survivor. You often get people who are boring to hear talk who are very good at Survivor. But I thought this show was pulled off perfectly. You know, I want Kirk Fox to eat. I want him to be paid. All right, before we do our top five, let's take a quick break. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo be a two percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. All right, Andy, have you done your sixth? Six was the gold. What's your number five? So now we get into like really my favorites. This is going to be probably a show, a conversation. Yeah, I think we have the same top five. We have the same five, top five. Maybe in different order. I'm proud of us, though, like, even after all this time, you know, people still really reveal.

I don't know what that says. I think it just says we're, well, I think it's one of two things. We podcast 104 times here. Yeah, I think that's each other socially. I think that's probably the primary part. I also just was racking my brain being like, what was, where was my English this year? Where was like the thing that came out of nowhere surprised me or that I, and I, and I, and I, I'd like to sit here and say there wasn't one. I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff. I mean,

everyone listening knows I always miss a bunch of stuff. But yeah, other than, I would say on this list, like other than drops of God, which as I was jokingly saying, but honestly saying, was just for me, I didn't feel as bespoke this year, which is probably in some ways a healthy culture, right? That there's the top five are things that we're all going to celebrate in maybe even different ways. So my five was slow horses. I put it at five. That felt fair because I absolutely love the show. I want it to run forever. But honest disclosure, I've not finished the season. So who knows? Did you watch, you watched episode four? Yeah, we're recording this. Yeah, four. So we are two-thirds of the way through the season. Yes. I also think, you know, we were saying

almost in a negative sense that Res Dogs, we were comparing to past seasons and past highs and that dinged it a little bit. Slow Horses is an established thing now. It is going to run for multiple years it already has. So I feel very confident saying that it is right down the middle of my top 10 because it gives me everything that I want on a consistent basis. So spoilers for the episode that just aired of Slow Horses, feels free to skip ahead like 30 seconds. I'll try to keep this brief. And I won't say it at all.

What Slow Horses just did with Dame Ingrid Tierney, who has been, obviously, Sophie O'Ganato, so you're like, that's pretty cool actress. I wonder what she's going to do. And then now she is the godfather is awesome. And when TV shows successfully do that, which is like lay the foundation for something that pays off in season three, episode four, and also tell a breakneck spy thriller story in the process. That's cool to me. Also, let's talk about this. No more spoilers now for people who are tuning back in. We often praise the British model of like shorter episodes. Oh, look who they got. You know, like Olivia Coleman shows up in fleabag. You can get people to show up in different things. Slow Horses is such a brilliant synthesis of all these different modes of TV.

It is going to run for eight to ten seasons as long as Gary Oldman wants to make it. And that, to me, is a really interesting convergence of a movie star, an Oscar-winning movie star, wants to make a television show. So it's going to get greenlit. But it's also now it's like Law and Order filmed in London, where they really film it there. And anybody, whether it's Sopidiris, who is making great appearance this season, he's a star of another show. He's just here. We'll show up in it for relatively, you know, whether a long stay or a shorter stay. And anybody is, the other thing that's delicious about it is that as long as Gary Oldman wants to make the show,

the concept is such that anybody could walk in or out of Slylehouse and you never feel, as formulaic in the best possible way as the show is, you never feel safe or like sitting a couple plays or scenes out or looking at a different screen because anything could happen within that framework. There's no throat clearing in this season. It's my number Forst show of the year This was a coin flip for me And I love the way

That they are telling story with action That the reasons why River is doing What he's doing is because he cannot shake This feeling like he is meant for something More viable or more important than Slahas That the God, and you know what you're right You were talking about wanting to spend

You know more time in these places there is a scene between Louisa and River in the most recent episode that you just can't have in the first three episodes of a series. You have to have lived experience with characters and see them go through different things on different parts of the Lost Island, and then they get a moment to pair it off, and you're like, ah, man, I didn't know I wanted that. That's cool, you know?

Also, and Will Smith, who developed these from the McCarran books, has, I think, shares at least one strand of DNA with Chris Storer, who made the bear. We'll talk about that soon. And that he does not believe in withholding pleasure. You know, he does not. He will give you the scenes that you want. He will give you... He's not too proud or too precious

to avoid giving us Roddy's car in episode four of the season. You know, with the tricked-out Subaru with like the anime ninja lady greeting him on the screen. That was pretty dope. And Gary Oldman's response to it. Like... I may see if my homie is a Pacific...

Pacific... my car dealer could do that for me. You know, you probably couldn't do that in an electric car like I drive because it would be wasteful. Yeah. So, again, you're welcome for prolonging the world long enough for Slow Horses' Season 9. Yeah. We'll probably get a couple more seasons by then. I love it.

I wasn't kidding when I was texting the other day that like there's a universe where this is number one because it's just, yeah, it's what I want to watch. Can't wait. I think the artistic achievement of some of the shows above it outpace it. but Slow Horses could be number five on my list for the next five years, and I love that. Yes. Okay, so Slow Horses, your number five, my number four. My number five is beef. Let's do it.

And what number is it for you? It leapt to number four when I finished it today. Why don't you talk about beef? Because I had Jake and Lysung Jin on the show. So I missed this. Yeah, Jim Shire, who directed a bunch of the episodes. I was traveling, and then I was super sick, I think, the week after I got back. So I just missed this phenomenon.

And this is, look, this is the nature of the Netflix effect that, like, everyone was talking about this show for 10 days in the spring, and then I hadn't seen it. And I am glad, really glad that I engaged with it. I am too. I think this show is pretty phenomenal and pretty special. And such, and so contemporary, you know, in terms of the way that it seems like it was perfectly designed

for the Netflix model. I understand why it was binge dropped the way it was. But I got to say, it was absolutely not what I was expecting. And here's why. There's no shortage of content, movies and TV, that deign to show us the hollowness of our modern lives or amp up interpersonal or cross-class collisions in a way to reveal the ugliness at the thing,

the root of everything. What really knocked me flat was the deep reservoir of compassion that that Li Sung Jin and his collaborators had for their characters, particularly for Danny and Amy, that the show was mature enough, considered enough, and confident enough to amp things up to almost at times, almost preposterous degree in terms of their road rage turned into just pathological. Obsession with one. obsession. But never, ever, ever took away their core humanity, their core, I mean, the show almost makes fun of it, but their core, it's not trauma is an overused word, just the things that

made them, their own culpability for their behavior, but also their emotional damage that they brought into it and what they ultimately saw in each other as a mirror. And I was really blown away about it. I was really moved by it. And I'm sure that when you talk to them and when other people have talked about the show and processed over the last few months. There's been plenty of time to be like, Stephen Young is one of the great actors of our time. The direction by Hikari and Jake Shriars and then by Lee Sung-Jin himself was like really, really exceptional and immediate and tact like really just grabs you, electric,

in an exciting way that the 90s needle drops were at times funny but ultimately perfect. But I was, there was. a moment, and you were, you know, because we text an awful lot, there was a moment like when they go to Vegas and David Cho's character and I was like, what are we doing? Where are we going here? And this was a show that absolutely understood the shape, the amount of real estate it had, and then like pushed everything to the potential limit and had a reason for doing it. Like the fact that the show ends with the two characters tripping, but speaking to each other, honestly and beautifully.

You're hearing the immediacy in my voice. Sure. But like this is a real one. And they really went for it. And I love that they made this for Netflix in this, both Netflix economy and in the Netflix culture. And it was very moving.

You know, there's an idea that art should strive to teach it, say something about what it's like to be alive right now. And I candidly sometimes don't want to know what it's like to be alive right now because I am alive. And that's why I like reading Lager McMurtry novels. Because even though it'll have overarching themes that are still relevant, sometimes I like to lose myself in the past. Or if you spend all day looking at a screen and being a person walking around the world, maybe you want to break from it when you watch entertainment.

This is a show about how living in America will drive you fucking insane. and it does that. It's not an easy watch in that sense. I think one of the things that I responded so much to in Stephen's performance particularly is it's like this throwback to almost like a 1970s movie character, like a Dustin Hoffman or Al Pacino character

that is like a guy who's got limits, a guy who's got limits on his compassion, limits on his morality, limits on his intelligence, to some extent, you know, like a guy who is eating chicken sandwiches, as you asked me about the other day when you were watching it. A lot of BK chicken sandwiches. A lot. So was this guy just crushing BK chicken sandwiches in his empty lot.

And aren't we all, you know, like in some ways. And I thought that this show was an amazing portrait, also not to get to Californians about it, of the greater Los Angeles area and some of like the way that we have to exist out here, what it does to our brains. And I thought it was like, it's just such a good fucking show. It also, you know, and again, this is not secondary or tertiary. It's essential to it.

But like, this is a show about a Korean-American experience in a way that I found really fascinating and illuminating and generous. Any kind of immigrant experience is rooted in that. The specificity of Amy's background versus the specificity of Danny's background. There's so much attention paid to it. Also, I'm here for Ali Wong, dramatic actress. I thought she was really good in Paper Girls, a show from last year. I just couldn't get over that, and we mentioned Burger King,

but in a year when Bella Bajari, I was the head of content basically for Netflix, introduced the phrase gourmet cheeseburger to the lexicon, which is something that tastes as good as a cheeseburger, it's recognizable as a cheeseburger, but maybe you class it up a little bit with some good ingredients in it. You spend a little more on the bun. A freedom mix.

Exactly. You mess with the fat ratio. This is a cheeseburger of a show, where the cheeseburger is actually 10 years of therapy. And whoops, it tasted so good. It looked like you thought there was french fries, you know, but actually it's about conditional versus unconditional love and how we chase that from our childhood.

And how we'll do this off mic. But like how love, but also this fundamental idea that like love and hate are basically the same thing. They're just different ways to bind yourself to someone. The show is very, very fluent in that. Yeah. You know, and just so not judgy. I don't know.

For especially for the Danny character, for Stephen Young, to be that guy and do those things and show that range for 10 episodes. And you come out of it feeling more connected to him. It's just, it's a triumph. My only question for you is, should there be more of this? Because I was like, oh, they did it. I knew I was coming on this podcast being like, I wish there were more ongoing shows, et cetera, et cetera. But this one, complete statement, beautifully considered, aesthetics, nailed it. And now I'm reading that Lysung-Jin is saying, oh, maybe I have two more seasons mapped out.

That would be very interesting. I trust him. I trust him until he gives me for some reason not to. I also think weirdly, like, there are some conceptual things about beef that I think could be applied to different sets of characters if they wanted to take... Not necessarily like a road rage interested in him, but like two people whose lives collide in opposition to one another for some reason. It's like special ops. Pretty interesting, yeah. So if he did like, yeah, special ops,

coal and beef, that would be good. So that was my number five. It's your number four. Slow horses is your number four. It was, uh, slow horses is your number five. It was my number four. So now we're just getting into numbers.

I wonder if we, there's three shows left. We have the same three. Uh, yeah, we do. I wonder if we have them in the same order. Want me to run them off? Yep. Uh, I have succession at three.

Mm-hmm. I have Barry at two. I have the bear at one. I have the bear at one. I have succession at two. I have the bear at two. of Barry at three. I figured. That's just, that's what I expected of you, honestly. Why is the bear number one? Let's do that. The bear is my happiest television experience of the year.

It is the most emotionally engaging, most joyful, the most affecting. It made me laugh the hardest. It made me cry the most. And it made me the most excited to hit next, next, next. all the things that we're talking about that we love from writing, from TV shows creating stars and characters that we love as opposed to the other way around, ongoing, playing with form, bringing me into a world that I don't know about

but now never want to leave. The bear ticks every one of those boxes. And, you know, we talked about this with Christora. There's something that is so generous about this show. Maybe that's one of the reasons why you know, that's the food service aspect of it, or just the service aspect of it. But it treats its characters

with such deep reverence and respect and acceptance and love, and the audience can't help it feel the same way. This is a year where a season where the bear expanded, obviously. I mean, just in terms of, it did the second season thing where people are asked to go on their own quests and come back to the castle with, like, newfound knowledge. and I thought it was brilliant that that happened in this season

and that it ended in this complete chaotic kind of success but kind of collapse. For the restaurant itself, it seemed like it was a success. For Karmie, he was trapped in a tomb of his own making. But like, you know, getting to see Lionel Boyce's character,

go off to Copenhagen, getting to see I.O.'s character, go through Chicago, getting to see Ebbins character, get to go to stodging training. And then also getting to see the past and getting to see fishes and getting to see where Karmie comes through and why Karmie is like that. It felt like it expanded the world of the show,

but also honed in on what people love about the show and what we wanted to see from the show. It was kind of a no-brainer for me. And I think also I maybe weighted it higher because it felt like, hey man, this is something that we're all a part of right now and it's got at least another season and there's something kind of like I said in the beginning of the pod melancholy about Succession and Barry ending

and I think for both of these shows their endings were hanging over them for a while. Yeah, look, let's talk about this as the employees of a sports and pop culture empire, right? Like there's an element of the bear that is rooting for something. The bear's a Cinderella story.

It came out of nowhere. scrapy, low budget, and it won the championship last year, not just like on our list, but like that's, it's an incredibly popular show. It's going to clean up at the Emmys next month. And then when they had came back with all of the attention in a similarly compressed time frame, I mean, just writing it, producing it really quickly, which is what they like to do. I guess they thrive under that. They leveled up. They delivered and more so. And part of our joy of television always comes from that kind of interaction. Like, it's so fun. even when I was a critic,

like I think people misunderstand that like people think the fun part is taking pot shots or taking something down. No, it's the same reason. It's always the same thing, which is you can talk to someone else, a stranger, a friend, family, and say, did you watch this? You should check this out. Oh, you loved it. Isn't it great? And you celebrate that together.

I do want to talk about what you're saying about our two and three shows, Barry in succession and the sort of specter of ending. I do want to say in the spirit of like the larger project we're saying, these three shows just do everything that I like and that I want more of in very different ways and unique ways. So I won't reduce them just to the archetypes. But like, I want a brilliantly written workplace or family drama that also is incredibly funny.

I want Mad Men. I had succession. I want that every Sunday on an HBO. With Barry, I want auteur to become anuteur in front of my eyes and make something incredibly personal and drag me along until suddenly I realize I'm not being dragged. I'm sprinting right beside him. Like, that's what TV should be doing. That's what the, if we were to cherry pick the top three or four out of our last 10 years of doing this podcast, I feel like the way we are talking about these three shows is the way we talked about different shows in these similar spots.

Yeah. I think it's worth saying that, like, in some ways, like the amount of contact that I had with succession this year in terms of, you know, we were potting about it a lot. We talked to Jesse. I think that thinking and talking about Succession became like a part-time job in some ways for even its viewers. Because not only were we put through the Ringer a couple of times in some pretty astonishing ways

with some episodes that if for some reason you're listening to a Best of Television podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network but didn't watch Succession. You could say episode three. Episode three, election night. There were a few episodes here where you're just like, well, that is going to require

a very long walk afterwards. That I think the scrutiny, it stood up to the scrutiny, it's just like, it almost was like, I was like living with those people. You know what I mean?

And so I, in some ways, like, I would say that the succession is closer to the bear than it is to Barry in my ranking. Like, it was a much harder one or two decision than it was a two or three decision.

Barry, I thought, was amazing. I think I, I think about it, way more filmmaking-wise than I do necessarily about the storytelling, although the storytelling is amazing as well. And it is so brave. It was such a brave piece of television.

God, I feel like I don't really have like a berry statement to me. No, this is all head versus heart stuff. You know, like I loved all three of these shows. You could swap them, honestly, at any point. The bear is number one for me because I love it. And it gave me feelings in all directions, and coupled with the celebration of its coming out and its success and these characters.

It's just like what I want to be watching and I am so grateful that we got to. Succession, I think your point is right. Like, it was so overheated. And the way we were combing over it every episode for Crumbs definitely affected my processing of it and maybe also caused me to take for granted just the absolute God-tier writing and acting,

the likes of which we may not see for a very, very long time. I think even as I'm thinking about it, trying to articulate this, I'm like, wait, all of that happened in the season that I've currently put number three on a list. It's absurd. The ranking is absurd in this case. And there's also, there was like hints of what, you know, because we and Jesse Armstrong's talked about

how he happened upon this being the final season and how it was almost this Socratic debate, you know, well, we could do this, but we should do this. We could do that, but we should do this. And there are moments in this season of succession where you're like, if you guys want to make Roman and Hollywood as like a four episode run, we could have done season four or five of succession.

I don't know how much longer you could have run the Kendall character through the same Charlie Brown on the football drill, but there are variations of this story that I think would have worked. And, you know, the Logan thing is the Logan thing. It's like a very, it's an incredibly like big swing to take that early in the season. And I think that the fact that the show is able to sustain itself in his absence gave me all sorts of ideas about what the show maybe could have been both with or without him in various points.

But it's, it was incredible. I think there was almost like a, the bear is the show of the year because it's still with us part to this. You ready for some podcasting right now? Watch this. Wood could and should. One, two, three for me. To define the season of the bear was what would it do?

What would they be able to do? They fucking did. And I'm in awe and I salute those people. I applaud them. Can't wait to see what they're going to do next. Barry is a masterclass in what Bill Heter could do with his talent, with his imagination, with his faith in the performers

that he chose to surround himself with. I can't believe the places this show went in its final season. It is jaw-dropping. Yeah, tiger. The time jump alone. Yeah. The different emotional colors

that it was playing with, how crazy, funny it was. I will never stop. I don't think I laughed as hard as I... The hardest I laughed this year was when Winkler and... What's his name? The guy with a voice

from the Cohn Brothers movies. Oh, yeah. God, I feel terrible. I'm not getting this. But they're driving and then it cuts, and he tells him something, and it cuts the wide angle and just veers off the road and crashes. I think that Bill Hader made the sneakiest best kind of masterpiece in that people will be loving and talking about the show for a long time, and they won't necessarily be the people who are winning Emmys,

but they're going to be the people who will be making the shows that populate our list when we're podcasting in our 70s. Oh, yeah. Because we're definitely going to be podcasting or 70s. Kind of. It is totally. Sweden heiress. No one else can make this show. I can't wait to see what he makes next. And everything that he could do, he did. And then Succession is a should thing. I've been thinking a lot about

finales and how things end. And it's very, very, very British in my estimation and very, very in keeping with the Jesse Armstrong that we've gotten to know briefly through four years of podcasting, which is he was just, he was just listening to his own show. He was listening to his is he did not sentimentalize it, which allowed the show to end, I think, as it should. And I think a little more time has to pass before we can really debate the merits of the final episode and where everyone was left. But I think that most people agree, right, coming out of that, and this is relatively unique. After watching that last episode, I think there was a lot of, like, nodding. Like, people got it. We got why the family got that last moment together in the

islands when they're looking what's his name, Peter's Cheese, and you think it's going to go one way, and then he showed us the show that he was making the whole time. Yeah, and I think that he did a really good job of honoring, like, those characters and the relationship the audience probably had with them while also telling the truth about them. Yeah, which never wavered. Which I think was actually, if I had one, you know, aside from really always loving our conversations with Sam, I was very interested to hear, I would have been very interested to hear what Sam thought of the final season his succession. If he watched it, he's never been a fan. No, but I think he understands its place in the culture and I think he always had that, like, relationship of like, why do people care about these people?

I think that one of the things that I love most about TV, especially TV that runs over a period of time, is that you create fictional characters that can withstand repeated scrutiny. And you put them through the ringers, you put them through all sorts of action or plot or whatever the case may be, and you reveal things. And you end up, in the best case scenario, it's like Michael Stipe at the VMAs, however many years ago where he was wearing a t-shirt for every cause that he cared about. And every time he got up to win, he pulled off another shirt and you're like, God damn, he must have been hot with all the shirts on. But there's more there. There's more to show, you know, and to do that while being caring and respectful of both your fictional

and your audience and seeing it through, that's a remarkable thing. That is a particular creative skill that I think is unique to TV. If you can keep steering your ship through all of these changes and not giving into market forces or winds blowing a certain way or what you think the audience might want. Very curious to see how that plays out with the bear. I mean, I trust that team so totally, but people fucking love those characters. And sometimes if you love someone too much, you can't treat. them the way

Leesung Jin treated Danny. Sure. You know, he has affection and respect for that character. But he puts him in hell. He puts him in hell. Yeah.

But, you know, it's funny, all these weeks leading up to this podcast, I was like, oh, I don't know about this year.

I'm really not sure. And then we got into these top five, six on, essentially on both of our lists. And I was like, that's nothing to sneeze at. That is,

that's some good stuff. Do you have any honorable mentions you want to mention just like, rattle them off. No, I kind of did. I mean, I, in the drops of God category, there's that Argentine show, not a, I thought Perry Mason, I wish there was more of it.

I have Last of Us, Silo, Daisy Jones, murder at the end of the world, top boy and hijack, not in that order, as my honor mentioned. It's Kaye. Kaya, you ready? It's only been two hours. Let's hear it from you. First of all, how'd we do? What do you think? You did okay.

No, I'm sorry. You guys agree. Kaya knows how I like to be parented. That is, that. I responded to that. So Kai, you wanted to just do your top 10. I'm just going to rattle it off real quick. You're going 10 to 1? Yes. 10.

Okay. High Jack. Sick. Sorry, it's a good TV show. That's our producer. Nine, silo. Look at this. Eight, Starstruck.

You've been banging the drum for Starstruck. How many seasons have we not watched? Three. Yeah. Six episodes each only. We have no excuse, do we? 30-minute episodes. There you go.

We should. Get after it. This year is a holiday present, Kaya. We will watch Star Strike. Thank you. I appreciate that. Seven was somebody somewhere, which I had not seen the first season of previous to this year. And they just came out with the second season this year.

And I watched both. It's a lovely show. Really lovely show. Bridget Everett. Yeah, she's awesome. She's great. Yeah, just very sweet slice of life show. Six was Daisy Jones and Six.

Yes. Five, last of us. four jury duty hell yeah three beef two succession one the bear look at us

you know what the watch mind have I think we're just right is that crazy that we're just really good at this and right we have really good taste it's possible what was your actual favorite thing

that you watched this year like if you put unscripted in like was there would it change very much if you were I've never seen a more confident look across the Kyos space I mean honestly like this season of Survivor would probably cracked my top 10. Remember Top Chef World All-Stars?

Oh, yeah, Top Chef was really good this year. Banner Pump Rules would definitely be on my list this year. And the Scandival's stuff happened this year. Yeah, this year. And they picked cameras back up. They had been done filming, getting ready. And the season was airing when the Scanavel News broke. They picked cameras back up and basically re-edited the finale.

Kind of like Captain America. Yeah. while the season was airing, which led to very, like, very good TV. I can't say I was more enthralled by anything else this year. And then I also really enjoyed

the Beckham documentary. Oh, yeah. That was very good. That was great. And I also liked Special Ops Lioness. Hell yeah, Kaya. Kaya, no one else could do what you do. Kaya's been crispilled. That's the shit.

A little bit, yeah. Kai, do you watch Gilded Age? I don't, no. I don't. Okay. that's another it's not on my list but it's probably

done a lot of hours with Golden Age this year but like that's I'll say the thing that I just haven't found time for in my life is the show that like isn't really going to be talked

about this podcast it's not good but I'm enjoying it yeah I've been trying to watch more movies to fill that spot and so I just because I'm auditioning

I have some SVU episodes I can recommend to you I'm auditioning for that fifth chair on Big Pick I got a little taste of it this week and it feels good it feels good over there you felt taken care of

yeah I felt respected that's good All right. We did a good job. What a year? You know what I will say? I mean, we have more podcasts to come. I think we're going to do a year on Mailbag.

And on Monday, something I'm excited about debuting. We're going to do this as a feature every year. Our episode of the year episode, where we're going to pick what we thought was the best single episode of television this year, talk to the creators. You'll know more about that on Monday. I do want to say, not the best year of TV, you know, top five or six on our list,

but I felt like one of our best years of TV podcasting. Do you really? I really enjoyed podcasting with you guys this year. I'm not done. I love podcasting with you. I do. I mean, there were some fallow periods of this year.

But a lot of industry talk. Yes, a lot of industry talk. Next year, there'll be a lot of industry, the show talk. Yes. That's where I'm happiest is when,

when me and Harper are out there making trades. Look, this is a crazy business. But thank goodness we have each other to swim through it. It's been a pleasure. This is one of, it just like a fine wine being poured by a, a French woman with an alcohol allergy.

In Japan. Yeah. You just keep getting better with age. Did you really describe me well? Thank you to Kaya for producing us for sticking with us when there are so many other places she could be, professionally and personally. She could be below deck right now. Yeah. And we will be back on Monday with a very special episode.