The Watch - The Top 10 TV Shows of the Decade | The Watch

Episode Date: December 19, 2019

Chris Ryan, Andy Greenwald, and Sam Esmail reflect on the past 10 years of television (1:00) before revealing their 10 favorite TV shows of the decade (27:48). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Sam Esmail and Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me today, a tradition unlike any other. It's Andy Greenwald and Sam Esmail. And usually we do a best of the year podcast. This is a best of the decade podcast.

Sam, welcome back to the Watch. Hello, hello. It's to be back. It's a different vibe this year. I feel like rather than it's not, He's not a guest. He's your coworker. He's a colleague. He's a friend from work. Aren't we all colleagues? Sure. Yeah. In terms of the discourse.

Kaya's also here with us here. Hello. And we are at the offices where Andy edits. And Sam as well. And Sam edits is... And I want everyone to know what's exciting about this as we do this in early December is that the fifth presence on this podcast is of our shared post producer Greg Tilsen, who is so upset that we are both doing this podcast right now. Why? Because you guys have other stuff. Yeah. Like, you know, he's got his season finale to edit. I've got mine.

Mine airs in two weeks. I've got plenty of time, honestly. Yeah, exactly. One of Sam's favorite things is that in the fourth season of his highly acclaimed Emmy winning show, he has a hard deadline and I don't. This is true. This is true. So we're doing Best of the Decade now,

partially because everybody else is doing their best of a decade. Right. But I also think we can't, like, pass up the opportunity to kind of, like, look back on everything here. And Sam, you wanted to do best of the decade. I did because I didn't I didn't particularly think it was a strong year. I was struggling to do a top

10, to be perfectly honest. I also wanted to kind of talk about the last 10 years because I think TV, I mean, I think this is a pretty critical decade for television, don't you think? Yeah, and I wanted and I think you're the best person to have talk about it because... I was smack in the middle. That's what I'm saying.

You started, I mean, you can actually talk us through this better than I can, but just to set it up, you started the decade pursuing films. Yes. You didn't have the highest opinion necessarily of television, or at least you weren't pursuing it. Yeah. And midway through this decade. Wouldn't say I didn't have the highest opinion. It just wasn't my thing. The procedural element wasn't my thing. Right. And so, and yet midway through this decade that we're looking back on, you crashed into television with a project that had initially been intended for a film. So talk about your journey

through this decade. Well, I mean, this kind of segues perfectly into why I wanted to talk about the last 10 years, because obviously television sort of exploded. I think the term peak TV was invented or said for the first time in what, 2016, 2017.

All the streaming networks. I don't, was Netflix doing original? House of Cards comes around, what, 13? Around 2013. So there was no Netflix television, original television. Rented Fletch and then forgot you had it for six months.

And then everyone forgets Lilliehammer, their actual original first. But that wasn't even, was that, that was on my list, though. But that, of course. Exactly. But I remember the reason, I've said this in multiple interviews, the reason why, the compelling thing that convinced me to change Mr. Robot into a television show is, because Steve Golan, may he rest in peace. Founder of anonymous content.

Founder of anonymous content who produced Mr. Robot, where we are right now. He showed me true detective and it was just coming out and I was blown away by the filmmaking. And I started to feel and I think it was coming before then, right? Breaking Bad. There was this sort of sense that television was going to be more serialized from beginning to end. So what I mean by that is there are television shows that have serialized narratives for a season. but Breaking Bad was doing it for the entire run of the series. They were telling one story from beginning to end.

Game of Thrones was sort of doing that. Even the great shows from the odds, like the Sopranos, which I love, was not really doing that. I think Lost kind of broke the mold and did that a little bit. Battlesar Galactica did that a little bit. But I thought, oh, here we go. This is where television is trending.

So that was more interesting for you as a writer than it was as a director? Because I would think if I saw True Detective and I saw what Carrie Flanago was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was multiple things. True Detective was just an anthology and it was telling that one story. But it was like the combination of Breaking Bad doing that one complete arc from first season to season finale plus Carrie doing his thing on True Detective with the camera.

The combination, it was just so compelling. And I thought personally, I remember feeling excited, oh my God, this is where TV is trending. I, however, do not feel that way. I feel like it's, I think it's going back. I mean, don't you think a lot of the shows, and we can talk about it in like the first show on my number 10, I don't feel is getting as much hype as some of the other television shows that are actually kind of skewing back to the more conventional check-in

with your characters, hang out with them every week. It's less about the serialized storytelling. I mean, even Netflix is making procedurals now. Or they're hiding, Trojan horsing one kind of show, an old-fashioned kind of show, in something that feels contemporary or, you'll, specifically I'm thinking of Mandalorian, which is basically the A-Team or like the 70s Incredible Hulk show set in the Star Wars universe.

Which I love. Yeah. Yeah. But the question I had before we get into where we are at the end of the decade was, and not to step too far, too much on the toes of your actual favorite podcast, The Big Picture, Sam. I do love that podcast. I was wondering if you also felt at the beginning of, not the beginning of the decade,

at the middle point of the decade when you were talking to Steve Golan about Mr. Robot, the walls closing in a little bit on what you could do. with the type of movies that you wanted to make. Yeah, I don't know how Mr. Robot works as a feature. I don't know if it does anything. I don't know if it gets made, and even if it gets made, does it do anything at the box office?

Right. No clue. I mean, and by the way, I think doesn't Michael Mann try and somewhat do that with a big movie star with Chris Hemsworth? With black hat. And, you know, no one saw it. Chris saw it in the theater. How was it?

I actually have never seen it. It's pretty bad, yeah. But I would watch it. it again. I mean, it's definitely got like five things where you're like, holy shit, but then there's also like, I have no idea what the plot of this movie is. By the way, it is crazy to me that a Michael man movie exists and I haven't seen it. I'm a huge Michael Man fan. I'm slipping. I'm slipping. But that, I mean, that was the eye-opening thing when Gole and approached me about going into TV. It just felt more exciting. Like putting aside the fact that could I beg and plead and get

Miss Robo out there as a feature, maybe, but it didn't feel as a. It didn't feel as a citing as being on TV in 2015. Well, I think that there's the two tracks. I don't know, but by the way, I don't know if I feel that way anymore. So, wait, I definitely want to know why you don't feel that way anymore. But I think that there's two tracks this conversation. There's the behind the camera and in the writer's room way of making television that changed. And then obviously, one of the things that you and I are kind of obsessed with is the way

how we talk about television and how we interpret television has changed over the years, where it's gone from during that peak TV period. It seemed like it played like a really central part of people's lives because there was a regularity to when we were all watching it and when we were all talking about it. And there was still that kind of, you could mile mark your life by like when this show was coming back on and when it was airing during the week. There was a moment when the way we're communicating over the internet was at a certain place. And the way that shows were being delivered and distributed was at a certain place. And they overlapped also with fewer choices. And we had these shows that felt, at least to us, like consensus, monoculture kind of events, or at least the type of people who listened to podcasts like this felt that way. And then post-netflix boom, I think there's just, you know, there's exceptional stuff everywhere, but that shared experience has decreased considerably.

And I don't know. You know, I'm curious if, for example, if the shows that we all have, there are a couple shows that are probably on all of our lists. And I wonder if those shows are from earlier in the decade or from later in the decade, when things got a little more personalized and a little more niche. Yeah, I don't know. I mean...

I would almost argue, I bet, well, I don't know because we disagree on a lot of stuff. But I would bet that we have several that we share from the earlier part of the decade and the later part of the decade is where our tastes seem to diverge a lot. But weirdly enough, that's what I'm talking about.

It feels like these last several years, TV has sort of skewed back towards this more traditional, less about the serialized. narrative and more about hanging out every week with your favorite characters. And that's where our taste of, that's where I think we started to disagree on our top 10 list because you, you guys, or I'll say Chris, I mean, you, you as well. Like, I think you guys like TV. You like that old fashion TV. I do. I do. I agree and disagree with you. I do think that that old fashioned type of TV show

might be the next market inefficiency because we swung so far away from it. Maybe. Make a hospital show? Make a, yeah, make a, make a, make a, make a, make a, make a, hangout show every week, you know, set in the world of spies or corporate finance or whatever the next thing is that's going to break through. Let me write this down. That set. Corporate finance. I was just give it.

That's a gift. I'm dropping gems here. That first one's free. But I was thinking about the decade in relationship to the decade before. And maybe it's my more conventional TV brain or what I still sort of want and love in TV. This last decade for me is stronger. It's just stronger in terms of series. like series that I would come back to or that I would hold up like the multi-season DVD box

set of and say this is almost unimpeachable. There are very few ongoing non-like event shows from this decade that I think match up with the top five or six of the previous decade. That said, the specific highs of this decade, whether there's something like Twin Peaks, which we're obviously going to talk about, or some of these serialized one and done shows are totally unlike anything that you're before and they are better. And so for me, that's kind of the, that's kind of the dividing line between the decades. And we should say, we will give a full rules that we came up with for this, as usual, arbitrary rules. Which I think, by the way, like, should be the rule.

I've been seeing a lot of top ten lists that are including shows. From the previous decades. Yeah, that makes no sense to me. We, for the purposes of our list. So, NYPD Blue should not be on my list then. Nothing that started pre-2010 could be on our list, even if it ran successfully into this decade. So there is no Mad Men on our list. There is no Breaking Bad on our list.

Very frustratingly no eastbound down on my list. That was the one that Chris and I were so excited to cape up for and it debuted in 2009. What genre did better for you this decade? Fucking crime. Crime. Crime. Yeah. So drama.

I mean, I was just saying comedy versus drama. Oh, yeah, drama. But like, yeah. See, I think comedy completely innovated itself. Well, I think comedy became more fluid. Like the half hour became a more interesting format. Shows like Master of Nun. Yeah.

Atlanta. Better Things. Louis, dare I say it. Those shows did not. I mean, I'd never seen comedies do that. The innovation in the decade was in the half-hour format for sure. But in terms of comedy, that old-fashioned brain, there was

nothing from this decade that I would put up against like The Office or 30 Rock are these shows that are actually the things that people still watch. You wouldn't put Atlanta up against I wouldn't compare them. They wouldn't do the same thing. They are not. And that's what I'm saying. I feel like comedy has totally... That style of comedy from the previous decade. I don't think. I don't think that anything in that stuff, nothing in that style made my list. So we, I think that one thing

that I've been kind of fascinated by, especially in this sort of the peak era where we're getting a lot of great stuff, but it almost feels like the way we're getting it, way we're receiving it, we're getting it from places like Amazon, we're getting it from places like Netflix from Disney. But even though HBO and AMC are not exactly like independent film studios or like some sort of like Wild West, you know, collective of artists. There was like a promise in 2012, 2013, especially coming out of the first decade of that century, where whether or not, like, you wanted to say,

it reminded some people of, like, independent cinema from the 80s and 90s or whether it was like kind of a return to the ethos of New Hollywood with like Robert Altman and stuff like that, but that at least we had tricked ourselves into thinking there was like this brave new world, and now it kind of like feels a little bit more, like traditional corporate mass entertainment making,

even if it feels funky, right? Yes. Do you buy that? Like, is it the promise of what you thought it was going to be versus where it ended up that you're sort of talking about? I don't know. I mean, are you saying like it's akin to franchise feature filmmaking except now in television form?

It's not even that. It's more like even the things that I, think are genuinely funky and weird, like something like undone or Bojack or something like that. Right. It almost feels like those are like full on experiments rather than, like, they are like niche audience plays. Rather than like Chinatown and Cockwork Orange. Yeah. Like or something that felt like now that that could also be like my biases speaking, you know, where I'm like, well, Mad Men really spoke to like a much larger universal thing than Bojack, which is not, you know, like that's not necessarily the case. Right. Right. But.

it does feel like the aim was higher maybe or a little earlier in the decade. And you feel like now it's turned into exercise. I think it's more, I think it's a little bit more like there's a smaller room that I know I'm talking to with this show and it only has to satisfy. I see. I see. That's a fair point actually.

I think especially with streaming networks, yeah, it's not about necessarily getting, I mean, I think they would like to have the mass mainstream audience, but it's also about being very specific and very targeted and also about, you know, I think to a certain extent they're trying to build up cachet, right? So they want shows that are just going to hit a certain critical acclaim or prestige. Weirdly, that matters more when these services are launching because that gives them a foothold and it gives them credibility. It gets people talking about it. It gives them relationships with people. It gets you too talking about on the podcast.

That's why we've been spending so much time talking about Jason Bamoa's C. But the most important. Wait, have you guys seen that? Yeah, I saw the first one. I was born blind. I never saw it. But the two most, I was going to say the probably. Apple Plus blindness.

The two most impactful or at least influential shows of this decade. Like, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Andy. But I do have to talk about Apple TV because go for it. Okay. Is there a case better than Apple TV going back to traditional television? I mean, that is what they're doing.

Right? I mean, am I wrong in that? There's interesting stuff happening in those shows, but even the package of Apple TV Plus is like, what if we told you this would be basically more or less what it felt like to watch ABC on a Wednesday, 15 years ago, but no commercials and huge stars. Yes. Look, you could look at this. We're going to go through this list and we're going to talk about a lot of high-minded stuff like the Twin Peaks revival. We're going to talk about...

Keep hammering Twin Peaks, brother. I will never stop. Not on Chris's list. But we're going to talk about Atlanta in these shows that we're... just mind-blowing for us and excited and creative. But the three, here probably, when you pull back far enough, the three most important and influential shows of this decade, all of which had debuted by 2011,

at the very beginning of the decade. Number one, Walking Dead. These are not on my list, but Walking Dead debuted in 2010. Wow. And I remember when I just started writing for Granlin, when we launched the site in 2011, and I was writing about it, and I interviewed Sean Ryan, who had had this,

who continues to have a great career and made a show that is on my list and the Shield from the previous decade said that this to him was the Jaws moment, right? This was the blockbuster moment when the promise of the 70s cinema in TV was like, oh no, we can actually get these ratings and play with this pool, so we're going to chase that.

And then Game of Thrones comes a year later. And all of these services, now that they've got their Emmy-winning Mrs. Maisels or whatever, are going to now spend a billion dollars on Lord of the Rings. The other show that I would say make an argument for is the most influential, show of this decade is 25 years old, and that's friends. Because all, we could talk about, you know,

secret things on Netflix, like collateral and dark all we want, but the majority of people on Netflix are watching friends. Right. And that's the information that's going to influence TV going backwards. By the way, I think that has a lot to do with this. Exactly. That's what people... Yeah. Is that like people are seeing that what people actually want is a nightlight. But are you guys, are you guys bummed out about this or I'm getting this and said, you're, that's cool. I'm not. I'm not mad because there's so much Because it's not cool with me. The industry is so big.

There's room for all. That's the thing is that like there's, I don't think so. If there's 700 shows on and 300 of them feel more or less like TV and then there's like a, I mean, I don't know what the numbers are. But it feels like when I look,

when I did my top 10 for this year alone, there was an embarrassment of choices. I felt like there was an. Oh, so I had the exact opposite reaction. But you haven't, did you feel like you watched a lot? I haven't. No, to be fair, I haven't. But I haven't also been that curious or interesting.

in a lot of stuff. Right. Look, the one show that they did put on my list that's from this year, and we'll talk about, I don't think you guys loved it. I don't think you saw it, Andy, I'm looking at you. Euphoria? Yeah. And I don't think you loved it that much.

I really enjoyed it, though. But it's crazy to me that that is not, to me, it is the best show of the year by a mile. Euphoria. Euphoria. The film, I mean, it's unparalleled. The filmmaking is what other show is doing what they're doing with film. making with camera with sound. And honestly,

the acting. I mean, I actually have a answer. The performances are outstanding. I really, really, really like euphoria. But like this is kind of

the interesting conversation, is that to me, too old to die young. See, I would have, too old to die young, I saw the first episode and loved it and then,

and I need a return back to it. I think so I think that would have been on my list. So I mean, but that's a good example of, there actually is stuff like that. It's just that there's so much of it. But this is my point. those aren't the popular shows.

Is there a world where that would ever be the popular show? What universe? I think in 2015, 2016, if Euphoria had come out then, we'd be talking about it. I just want to make the distinction. When you say the popular show, you're talking about the show that we would be talking about. Not the people who would be watching Friends

would instead be watching Euphoria. I don't know. Kai, do you watch Euphoria? Yeah, I loved Euphoria. It was really good. Well, there you go. So, she's a... So, Kaya, who produces her on television podcast.

Standing in for the Real America. How many, I've, I've, look, I've scanned the top 10 lists of the, of the year. Okay. It is not on a lot of lists. I think that's insane to me. And I, and I think that in the shows that I do read that is on that list, I'm just, it's, it's, it's, again, it's, euphoria is not comfort food. You do not watch euphoria and check out and go on your Twitter or whatever.

Which is why I didn't watch it when I was in production, because I could not psychologically handle it. Right. But. So either on an episode of Friends or whatever, but, but. my point is, is that I don't think that would have been the case five years ago. I think Euphoria would have been this talked about way more and it would have been on, you know, what I, what I hear when you're saying this. Like, do you think it's going to get any, you know, not that this necessarily matters, you think it's going to get any nominations? No, none.

That's incredible to me. But here's, that's awful. But you know just as well as anybody. When you're out here, it's like the half of that stuff is just like glad-handing and doing dinners and stuff like that. There's also so much stuff. And what I hear with your argument is that there's just suddenly an overabundance of choices at the high end part of the buffet, that the shows that are fighting for the relatively small section of critical attention from people who don't want comfort food or, you know, wants challenging filmmaking or all the things that you value very highly, and we sometimes

value, depending on your opinion of what we're talking about. But there are just more choices there. love that Chris stands for Till to Die Young. I mean, that's, that's fucking awesome.

Right, but I'm saying 10 years ago, how many choices were at that very, very high end? There were fewer, and so the same people

were the same, all the critics were talking about the same five best shows. And now your potential choices for shows competing in that end of the pool,

which has a limited ceiling in terms of general viewership, is so much more fierce. But the shows that break through and get on the top five on every list that I've read, right. It's shocking to me that that's what's considered better than, for example, euphoric, by the way, another show that's on my list, Mind Hunter.

David fucking Fincher is knocking it out of the park. I mean, both seasons are fucking brilliant and no one talks about it. It's on a lot of people's list is because we all, like, I only knew Mind Hunter season two. if I wasn't a critic or wasn't like doing this podcast, there was one billboard on like Kowanga that was like eight six. Yeah. Let's do it.

Because this is something that's on all over the list. Wait, but that's crazy. But why are others show, you're saying because there are more billboards? Because my other's not getting advertised before Game of Thrones, the way Euphoria is. Also, I, but wait, hold on a second. Hold on a second.

Because I got to say this excuse about it's not being marketed. I don't think that's what it is. I think it's not a fun. show to put, I mean, I think it's a fun show, but I don't think it's an easy show to watch in the background. I think that is what's being more valued right now. And I'm, I'm kind of curious, like, what do you think are the top five shows that everyone's talking about this season? The same ones. Everybody's talking about the same shows. Think about them and think about how easy they are to watch. Wait, I feel like that's starting to stay on Mind Hunter, which I find

incredibly. Rividing. Like, oh, I do too. Joyful to watch. I do too. I don't find it unsettling. I mean, I find it unsettling, but I don't find it, um, I hope you find it on trust. It's unsettling that you don't find it unsettling. You know what I mean? I look forward to watching it. I don't feel like it's homework to watch it. I relate to all the characters being interviewed in the prisons.

Wait, but here's the thing. There's a scene in Mind Hunter where three people are having a long conversation in a car and the guy who's doing most of the talking is in the backseat and is out of focus. Yeah. It's fucking riveting. It's amazing. It's the direction, the writing, the performances.

Everything is like top-notch. You cannot do the dishes and watch that scene. You just can't. You can't. You can't be on Twitter and watch it. You got to watch it. And I think that's the difference. I think to me that is the major difference there. I don't want to discount that part of it. But I do want to say. And so it's number five on my decade list. It's on your list as well. It is. I don't know what number one. Chuck. It does feel to me, I don't know whether it's an indictment or it's a just a comment on the state of television in 2019 that this is a luxury product that exists. And it is slaved over. I mean, it is so beautifully made. I am dazzled by it because, you know, a David Fincher show on television, should be. We're going to, well, I'm going to say we would watch it no matter what. The fact that it is so brilliantly written, so brilliantly performed, the production designer,

every actor that I've never seen before or heard of on that show is delivering like Hall of Fame-worthy performances. And no one talks about it. And part of that, I think, is the Netflix dumping method. It just appeared two years after the first season on everyone's phones. People talk about other Netflix shows, Andy. But the build different. season. And the way that I think the second season is a huge step up from the first season, which I adored. Yes. I would agree with that. It doesn't, doesn't have room in the culture to be like,

oh, wait a second. Oh, hey, wait a second. Catch up. Catch up. Here we go. There's also, I think, a little bit of fatigue with period pieces. I do think that there is some, to some extent, like a lot of the shows that I feel like really captured, like, not the zeitgeist, but really caught on this year, at least either in, like, they were critically acclaimed or conversationally, it seemed like they were dominant. Name some of the shows. Like Flea Bag. Okay, but flea bag is really easy. I really like flea bag. I actually, probably in the minority, I'll say I love the first season more than the second season.

But I still... Sorry, I have to take my shirt off. That take was too hot. You feel like you could just have fleabag on in the background and look up. That was an easy watch for me. It's so lovely. It's so pleasurable. It's not...

That is a... Would you consider that a challenging show to watch? Not necessarily that that's a good... I think intellectually it's like the things that they're talking about and the way in which the story is told. Is flea back on anyone's list? It's not on my best. It's my number two.

Whoa! Wait, we should, we're starting to step too much in the list. Let's start. Before we get into the numbers. Yeah. Is Flea back on your list? Yes. Good job, Kaya.

Wow. Thank you. Completely, the alignments are shipping constantly in this room. Couple rules that we were going to say for our ground rules. We already said the one about timing. The show had to have debuted in 2010 or later. Again, is the only sensible rule. We also.

Anyone making a top time of the decade should follow. Sam, one of Sam's requested rules was no Sam S-Mail shows. No Sam-S-Mail shows. This is always your rule every year. So, so no Mr. Robot. No Mr. Robot. No homecoming. No Briar Patch trailer, which I had thought about putting early.

By the way, have you seen any of the Briar Patch episodes? I've seen the pilot. Is he allowed to talk about it? Can I ask him about it? What did you think of the pilot? I loved it, but I saw it like a while ago. I saw it after they shot the pilot. So I think I saw it before you went to New Mexico.

Did you ever see the final? final version of it? No. He came to a like a friends and family screening before we changed it. Yeah. I gave some notes. Before we made it more

in the traditional sitcom format that was controversial with Sam. I think it's going to go really well for it. I was like, you know, the laugh track, it might not play. It might not play. I did follow your rule, Sam also.

I didn't, I mean, Fargo probably would have ended up on my list, but because I had worked with Noah, I didn't fight for it to be on the list. Where are all these rules? Are you guys doing, like, like, courtroom deals? Is this like Warren Hatch

Mitch McConnell? We get stuff done. Other rule was no nonfiction, unscripted shows. Yeah, because otherwise made in America would have easily made my list. I must admit, I must have just glazed over that part of the email. So I did have one in my top 10. And it's what I would have agreed with. I can take it out and put something else.

Do you have one right now? Part's unknown. Which I think is deserving. Oh, okay. I've never watched that. But unfortunately, it broke the rule. Yeah. So your turn off is Mike Kay.

He's done. So what we'll try to do as we do for these. Do you have any more rules and regulations you want to? I wish I did. But no, I think that's pretty... We're in an era of rolling back regulations, I thought. Oh, that's right. You know?

We're not letting big business grow. We're going to go from 10 to 1. In certain cases, if you hear a show and you're like, I have that much higher. We can hold the conversation for the higher parts of it if you want to. Sam is our guest. Why don't you start with your number 10? Well, I already said it's euphoria.

I'd promise you, if I could be a different person, I would. Not because I want it, but because they do. But here's the thing. One day, I just showed up without a map or a compass. And at some point, you have to make a choice about who you are and what you want. Best show by far of the year. And honestly, it would be higher on my list.

But because it's only been the first season and because of the recency bias, I just felt like, I'll keep it low for now. But, I mean, again, I mean, I've already said it. The best filmmaking on television. It's, I find that you just, not to restart this argument, pretty traditional, like, plotting. Like, it is a teen drama with an A, B, and C plie every week. I mean, I guess, I guess in a way that's true. But it's done with such innovation.

I mean, to me, I don't need the plot. I've kind of, I've probably said this on this show before. post plot. Fuck plot. Who gives a fuck about plot? I mean, to me, it's... I just want to say as a producer working for you, thank God.

Thank God that's your opinion. I mean, you know, more than anyone that I don't give a shit about plot, right? Andy Greenland. That's why we're still working together. But to me, like, you know, it's a visual medium, right? And it's an experience.

That's what you're asking for. Anytime you you turn it on. And that show delivers every week. And, you know, they've, you know, some episodes are better than others, but consistently, when I turn it on, I know I'm going on,

I'm going on a ride. And I just, I don't think any other show this year comes close to that. Now, putting aside the fact that I did see the first episode, too old to die young,

will definitely age you. So you should just pick a time, like in your third act of Irishman part of your life to watch it and just accelerate everything then. I just don't think, yeah, for me,

and I'm not mentioning, you know, the cinematography is amazing. The music is great. you know, the composition is great, but also the performances. Is there a better performance, better than Hunter Schaefer this year? I mean, I'm sorry. I know you're going to probably, you probably do have an answer for that, but the answer is,

no, there isn't. As someone, Hunter Schaefer is the only person in this room who doesn't know Hunter Schaefer is. Yeah. And yet is somehow still hosting this podcast with you, Chris. I can't answer that directly. All right. Kaya, would it be? Is Euphoria on your list?

No. It's not on my top 10 list just because for the same reasoning, it's so new. Two reason. And like two recent. And I'm not really sure what they're going to do with season two. But I did like truly love it. It was just, yeah, as you said, really beautifully shot. I heard a lot of people making comparisons like shot like a music video. Yeah. Felt kind of like you're like living in an Instagram filter at some point, which was like interesting. And yeah, I mean, the performances were amazing. It was interesting because I watched the first episode and it was like really hard to get through. And I almost didn't pick it back up. Well, there you go. And then I watched the second episode and I waited again like a couple weeks because I was like, I don't know if I want to keep watching. This is like hard to watch.

But then you like kind of got caught into it. But then I went back to it. I ended up binging the rest of the season. You took the edge off with a couple of Echernobes. And you're like, now I can go back. All right. So that's number 10 is euphoria for Sam. Greenwald.

What's your number 10? Oh, Kaya, what's your number 10? My number 10 is unbelievable. I know this is hard, but I need to ask you some questions about what happened. He tied my hands. He said if I screamed, he'd kill me. No signs of forced entry. Doors and windows were locked.

No DNA. Not a single neighbor saw or heard a thing. He brought a blindfold but nothing to tie her with. Would a shoelace even hold her? You think Marie made up the attack? I'm pretty positive that had happened. Pretty positive or positive. They just kept asking me the same question.

How come your story doesn't add up? I wanted to go home. I don't have a victim here. It's bogus. She made it up. I haven't seen this. That was in my top 10 of the year. Top 10 of the decade.

Unbelievable. Yeah. Because I feel like it's the first crime show that I've watched that doesn't feel exploitative and is also like female-centered. I've never watched like a procedural crime drama like that that was like centered on female story with female detectives and also did not feel like they were taken advantage. of anyone. And I think that's a lot of my reluctancy with the genre of true crime is that it feels like you're taking advantage.

But that was not the case of that show. Did you ever see the killing? Andy saw the killing. Did you not like the killing? The first season. Check my recaps on Vulture. Even the first season. Did not like it.

No, the show I would suggest in a similar vein, I mean, is Happy Valley, the British show. Oh, yeah. Or Broad Church? Brilliant. Yeah, but Happy Valley in terms of the more feminine. a slant to the investigation, which I really love. My number 10 is a one-season wonder from 2010 called Terriers. It's too big for both you guys.

Are you saying we're small-time? What if we're actually big-time and just didn't realize it? I'm putting the house up for sale. I want the house, Chris. What are you doing by the house? You can barely afford lunch today. How are you going to pay for a mortgage? You lost your marriage in that house.

You're getting married again. Yeah. So you two are partners. We're only recognizing it for Vermont Massachusetts. It won't bounce. Your check's always bounce. Your life boucher. Go home, Hank.

You're not a copy anymore. So stop pretending to be one. So you're not a cop anymore, right? Not anymore. You know, for a second, I thought you were undercover, but now I realize you just dressed like that. I had to represent with it. This was a show that, honestly, I have not revisited in a couple years. And if you, if and when people come at me on Twitter and it's like,

are you really like Terriers more than Veep or other shows that didn't make my list, but it came very, very close. I don't know if I could be honest with you about it. but I loved it so much, and I loved it so much in the way that I loved television when I was younger, in that this was a, but it felt pointed forward towards what the decade would be. It came too early, basically. For people who don't know it, it was a one-season show on FX, about two buddies who ran a detective agency. And it felt in the beginning like it was just, this could run forever.

It's a procedural-type show. It's in a beach town by San Diego, and one guy's recovering alcoholic and the other guy's a thief. But as the season went on, you realized that it was kind of a load-bearing vessel. could handle all kinds of storytelling and was primed to enter into this decade where it could have been much more heavily serialized, but it had a name that people didn't understand. It was a few years too early. It was on FX. Yeah. And I just feel like it did capture so well the promise of the decade as a, and the, what I've loved about previous decades, and it just ended too soon. And ending too soon is not something a lot of shows happen. It happens to them anymore. It was a one season, right? It was a one season.

Okay. And it works as one season. It ends really, really well. I did. Yeah, I loved it. I mean, it was a really delightful show. In much the same vein, my number 10 is probably the most old-fashioned show on it. Here we go, Kaya. It's justified. 30 seconds.

In front of all these people, you're going to pull out a gun and you're going to shoot a non-man. 20 seconds. So what are you going to do? 10. You do know that we're not allowed to shoot people on site anymore. It was justified. Which I thought was an FX.

Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I obviously loved it when it was on, but I revisited it a little bit after Once Upon a Time in Hollywood because obviously a lot of Once Upon a Time at Hollywood, there's a lot of homages to like old 50s and 60s

TV Westerns, which justified essentially is modeled after. I mean, it's based on Elmore Leonard's writing, but a lot of the structural stuff feels very much like it was, you know, the case of the week, at least in the first season. Then as the seasons went on, it kind of got more of that

serialized like long-form storytelling style. But I would say line for line, it's got the best dialogue of any show of the decade. And so that's why I'm putting it in there. And also probably one of my favorite lead performances by Timothy O'Lophon. All right. So Sam, number nine. The leftovers. Which I assume is going to be on your list. On my list.

So should we wait. We should hold it for when it comes up on your list. What's your number nine, Kaya? Big little lies. Big little lies. Wow. Everybody wants to prove who's the richest. We're talking about viciously competitive people.

And at the root of it. Was Madeline. Exactly how psychotic do you think I am? He's a lot younger than her. Celeste. She must be pretty, you know. So bad. We are so bad.

Jane just didn't fit here. I thought it was nice for the nannies to get to know each other. You're not a, a nanny. Kind of like a dirty old Prius parked outside of Barney's. She's a mom. She's a young. Like you used to be? Like we used to be? Bitch.

Ticking bomb. I'll leave it at that. Itty-bitty ball of rage. Battle lines were... Things never blow over. They blow up. Boom. I love people. I do too.

It's like truly enjoyable to watch. And honestly, like, when I watch TV, I skew towards stuff that's truly just fun. Easy to watch. Easy to watch. Yeah. And also, like, I feel like it was really the first show where it was like, let's hang out with your favorite movie stars every week. And, like, season one was much, much better than season two, in my opinion. But yeah, and beautifully shot, I grew up like.

an hour from Monterey. And so, like, I connected with that a lot. And, yeah. Did you spend your childhood staring out into the ocean, wearing a beautiful sweater? And listening to your iPod headphones? But I'll say, you know, there are a lot of potentially really interesting lists that we could have also done, one of which being like best single seasons of shows, which would have made, I think, all of our lists slightly different.

But in terms of, like, significant shows, top 10 of the decade, in terms of the future of the industry, Big Little Eyes, has to be on it. just in terms of the giant swing, giant movie stars, limited event series, and then they're like, well, why don't we just throw more money at it and keep doing it?

There are no rules anymore about stars being on TV. This is an example of what I was talking about. I mean, don't you think big little lies? It's a little bit like what Kai just said. It's, you get to hang out of your favorite movie stars

every week. It is... I love that. I mean, this is something... But whether, I'm not, I'm not putting a qualitative thing on it. No, you're right.

You used to see Rees Witherspoon once every 18 months for two hours. Yeah. Now we've seen, there's two shows. with her this year. You have morning show

and Big Lul Lai Season 2 where you can have 14, 22 hours of respluses. It's an expensive dynasty, right? It's an expensive... Yeah, I think the first season is actually quite moving. I mean, like, in places.

So I really enjoy the first season. And I think we could save this conversation for when I'm not on the mic and you and Chris review the first season of Briar Patch. But foundation, one of the things that I care most about in TV is that idea of

people sit on their couch to see their friends. Yeah. And I think that buys you a lot of goodwill and it takes you away. It's another way to engage with a show that's not plot. And it actually, if you're along for the ride with these people, you might overlook certain macune and plot mechanics. So nine for you as leftovers, nine for Kyle, Big Little Lies, Andy. A show that is probably on people's list and we should probably get into it, which is Game of Thrones. Yeah.

You want to do it now? Yeah, let's do it. Have you heard of it? Yeah. It's number seven on mine. What number is it on yours? It's number one. What? Curveball. Whoa.

Chris Ryan. Yeah. Enemies to the east. Enemies to the west. Enemies to the south. Enemies to the north. Whatever stands in our way, we will defeat it. Go ahead.

Explain yourself, Ryan. Valerie and Jason aren't here. You don't have to do this. No, I've never seen Game of Thrones. Whoa. This is one of my favorite things about Kaya. She produced every episode of the watch for the last few seasons. I honestly don't know if there is a person in the world who has listened to more, like, Game of Thrones content yet has not watched it.

You can't watch it now, right? Do you feel like you could? I've watched like half a season. I just, it does not. Yeah, it does not connect. I wish, like, we could just give you a Microsoft Word document open and have you write the story of Game of Thrones. It's like if someone who had never seen a horse and you ask them to draw a horse, like what would it look like? It's like those memes that go around where, like, they have an algorithm, like, watch.

watch like 70 hours of TV and then spit out like a TV show, that would be my Game of Thrones stock. You could do it. Do you want to do the Game of Thrones talk now or you want to wait till later? I think we're ready to do it. I would say that this show is now underrated because of the way people fault about the last season. I think that it's basically the Star Wars of Television. So whether or not you kind of loved it or liked it or didn't like it or you may not even like what it meant to TV, I think it changed television forever and it changed what television could be forever. Let me ask you a question. I agree with you. I think it is. Whether or not that makes a makes it good? Well, no, no, no. I'm saying, I think it is a Star Wars of television. Is Star Wars

number one on the top movies of the 70s? I'm just throwing out things. Yeah, I'm just throwing out. Well, because I agree with you. I think Game of Thrones changed the game. I mean, it is a R-rated, violent, adult fantasy show. Like, I've never thought that that would be possible. I would also just point out. By the way, they spent a fuckload of money on it. And it had a huge audience. It was crazy. I thought that I think I've come to appreciate it even more in the time since people have started ripping it off a little bit.

You know, in the time since you've seen more shows that are like, we're going to try and do a Game of Thrones. We're trying to capture the Game of Thrones vibe here. And also, like, just going back through it, I think it provided some of the most captivating, breathtaking moments in pop culture of the decade. It was routinely, like, brilliantly written. the fact that it was to be able to take such like arcane kind of like really like hard fantasy situations and make it just be like wow I'm deeply emotionally invested into whether or not

Tyrion gets out of this room or not and the fact that for as many of the set pieces that they had and although like take away where you're like oh wow that action scene is probably the best thing I've seen in any screen this year I would still say my favorite parts of it were still the people talking to each other in rooms making you know shaping power and shaping this And don't forget, I think the filmmaking in Game of Thrones Phenomenal. It was phenomenal. So yeah, drones is one for me. Yeah. Also, and I'm curious Sam's take on this, because I wonder if this is the same

conversation we've been having about hanging out with your friends. Television. But for me, for me, the experience of Game of Thrones, which is for me, I cannot separate it from covering it because we, so much of these last few years we were talking about it or doing shows about it or whatever was so fun. It was so fun to be engaged with the larger culture that way, Except for Kaya. We were unable to engage that way, unfortunately. Thus, there'll always be a little bit of a distance.

But it was telling one story. The whole time you were, Winter is coming. You felt like we were building to something. And I remember... It was a story about a paraplegic boys rise to power. We didn't know it at the time. But that's what it was.

It's interesting that you think it's underrated now, given the last season's reaction. I think people like really, like, it was one of those shows that was bulletproof for such a long time that as soon as it cracked, people were like, oh, now we can make fun of it. And now we can be like, this is pretty stupid, actually, when you think about it.

But in truth, like, for most of the time Game of Thrones was on, we were all basically like gobs back. It's also very, very indicative of how much TV has changed because even a decade ago, I guess a decade ago, this was beginning. But prior to that, the idea of expecting that a show would stick a landing is so foreign, right? Shows just ran and ran and then they stopped running. Yeah. And then the expectation that every piece, it's almost, I think there's been a, we're due for a correction because I think this idea that everything that came before, all the fun we had along the way, all the incredible artistic and aesthetic highs are somehow invalidated because we didn't love two or three choices at the very end. That's a, that's a silly way to look at things. I'll push back on that a little bit because of what I just said, it was building to an end. The whole time, part of my enjoyment at least, you know, outside of loving the world, loving the character. who's loving the filmmaking and writing is,

I can't wait. I can't wait until this all comes together and all these armies come together and and so it was writing a lot on the end game. Whereas I think a lot of shows, a lot of other shows that don't do that, yeah, the pressure is not so heavy on the series finale.

You know what I mean? It's also like such a testament to the power of that kind of long form storytelling and when you do get to live with characters I mean, we're kind of being flippant about this idea of you just want to hang out with people you like. But when you think about like the audiences' relationship that they developed with a character like

Jamie Lannister over the course of seven to eight years, it's so great. It's so much more profound than what it would have been if it would have been even like a three and a half hour movie. So Game of Thrones Nine for you. Yeah. Nine for me is happy endings. I wanted to pick a sitcom. It's probably in some ways the most traditional thing

I picked on this list. I do love that show. And it is... I didn't watch the whole thing, but it was really funny. This is the biggest surprise for me. Really? Yeah. Happy Endings was a ABC sitcom starring Adam Pally and a bunch of people from Damon Wins Jr. Casey. Casey Wilson and Eliza Coupe. Elijah Cuthbert.

And it's just like, I don't know how you would make a, like a traditional studio sitcom any better than that. Is that the funniest show you've seen all? No. Well, the funniest show. I think Vee's up there, you know. Right. Is that on your list?

For pure quantity and quality of jokes, I think it has to be VEP. but happy endings had that extra piece of like, it's not as emotionally gripping as some of the other shows we've already mentioned, but there is something that is comfortable and warm about that vibe. Yeah, and it was almost too so real to have that. Comfortable and warm.

It never was able... It's essential to TV. It's different than movies. Yeah, it was never like so easy going that it would have been able to catch like an office parks or friends kind of run. But I think that it would...

It definitely had a few more seasons in it. So it's too bad it didn't so. That narrowly missed my list. Kaya, do you like happy endings? I've never seen that either. Let me ask, let me ask, Kyle. I was in middle school when happy endings came out. Wait, Kai, I want to ask you a question.

Which do you prefer? The British office or the American office? The American. The American. British. I mean, the British, like, no question. They're completely different shows. That's why they were both successful.

I mean, I just think from beginning to end, the British office is a master's. Yeah, yeah. It's true, which, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. You know what I mean? But I don't know. Anyway, go ahead. Happy endings, nine for me. Sam, what's your eight?

Escape it, then, Mara. So you're a 51-year-old woman who's been with the same man for 20 years, 21 years? So we can have an adult conversation. Okay. Did you have sex with these two inmates? No. I just figured you're friends with my friend. What makes his friends?

What's going on with you and Tilly? Maybe we can arrange a get-together soon. I'm down there every night. I'm cutting the pipe. I'm doing the work. All you do is sleep. Nobody knows about a marriage, except the people in the marriage and sometimes even they don't know. So you want to be part of my dream?

Yes. Say it. If we're talking about 70th cinema, if we're talking about filmmaking and great, great performances and a story from beginning to end with a complete arc. This is one of the most perfect seasons of television. How many episodes was this? Nine, I think. It was a nine?

It was way closer to a nine-hour movie. It's phenomenal. And, I mean, did anyone direct a whole season of television before this decade? Do we know the answer to that? No, I mean, like, it's like James Burroughs probably directed most of seasons of Cheers. You know? Yeah, I just think. In the way you're talking about it, not really.

Yeah, I just think you could feel that. I mean, I felt that obviously the first season, True Detective, but I think... Do you know any other shows where there's one director? No, you know. But I escape it Denamara from beginning to end felt... I mean, it just felt like such a singular vision that was executed to perfection. And then you, on top of that, had these beautiful performances from Patricia Arcad and Paul DeNo and Benicio del Toro. And even just like, I can't remember the actor's name, but the person...

that played Patricia Arquette's husband was great. Eric, what you should call him up because. Yeah, we should. Anyway. Eric lying. He was very good on the bridge. And the simitography. He's in Arcos too.

The cinematography was amazing. I don't know. To me, it was just a flawless season of television. My only note on that, I think I also thought it was incredible when I finally got to the end of it. But it's a little like, you know, talking about friends and family shows because as everyone who listens to the watch knows, Ben Stilller absolutely, absolutely was telling the truth when he said on the podcast without the music. It's pretty well documented that he was listening to us a lot while he was. making anymore. So it's sort of weird.

One of the all-time greatest moments for me on the watch was near the end of our interview with him over the phone. He's sort of, you can literally hear him ordering lunch, I think, into a cell phone. He's like, um, big fan of what you guys do. Do. And to me, that meant that he is a long-time subscriber. Kyle, what's your- Wait, wait, Kaya, have you seen Escape at Denham? I want to get feedback. It's fine, yeah. I watched a couple episodes. Didn't take. Didn't make the best of the decade list for Kyle. What was the reason that you stopped at curiosity? I just, it was too slow moving.

It was really bleak. Bleak? It was just like, upstate New York, you're upstate New York prison. She lives near the beach. Right. Thus, the big little lies could all out.

If it had been escaped from Madonna, I can't. She would have been into it. No, then it would have been too close to home. Kyle, what's your number eight? You guys are going to make fun of me. It's billions. When did it become a crime to succeed in this country? Everyone has access to the information.

We just know how to analyze it better. We spotted a suspect trading pattern. You must get pins like that every day. All three firms have links to Bobby Axelrod. Play hard, play clean. Be careful out there. That's all right. I like Billions.

I saw the first season that I really enjoyed myself. Yeah. I haven't gone back yet, though. The first three seasons. The most recent season was like so-so. But it's just really fun, really engaging. The dialogue is like, can be kind of silly at times and like a little bit like too packed with pop culture references.

Sure. But like great Paul Giamati performance. Damian Lewis is incredible. Really like it keeps you engaged. I mean, I would admit I'm really bad at watching TV. Like I do the thing where I sit and watch TV and I'm on my phone the entire time. And it's an easy show to watch. And it's an easy show to watch while you're on your phone.

And like a lot of times I will start watching TV and then I'll look at my phone and then I'll be like, this show is bad. I'm turning off. It's like, it's probably not bad. It's probably me. Wow. All right. Eight billions for Kaya, Andy Greenwald.

I'm going to look deep into Sam Esmail's eyes when I say this one. Success. Everything I've done in my life, I've done for my children. I know I've made mistakes. But I've always tried to do the best by them because I'm not. I love them. Maybe you thought about the possibility that your children are actually scared of you. Oh, fuck off.

I assume this is on your list. Yeah, this is number three for me. Is it on your list, Guy? It is. It's number three to one. Yeah. Hey, man. I admit I'm in the minority.

We can do it now. Let's get it out of the way. Yeah. I think, we've also talked a lot about succession. By the way, succession, just so, you know, my wife loves the show, watches it. And easy show to be on your phone with, and on your. phone. I mean...

That is such withering. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't... I actually, to me, Succession is a lot of fun for the one-liners. You know all your characters. It's a hangout movie. I mean, it's a hangout show. Wouldn't you agree with that?

You said before we started recording that your favorite thing about watching Succession is sending us trolley signal messages during the episodes. And to be fair, I have not seen... There was one in, like, the beginning of the second season, there was one night where we had a signal thread going where Sam and I had an 85 message thread back and forth. And then like you checked in at like 9 p.m. I was on set. And you were just like, holy shit.

What's wrong with you too? I was so stressed out trying to get make the day during lightning delays in Albuquerque. Did you read? Be honest. Did you read the entire thread? Of course I did. While watching Billions. You have to read because he's going to dissolve.

I could do the two things at once. Full circle. I just, you know, we've talked about it many times. I just think the show is electric. I think it's the rare combination. of comedy and drama and performance. And I love, Chris, I thought you made a really good point about period piece fatigue. I love that it is set now. And I just feel like it's exciting to be enjoying a show like this that reminds me of the earlier days of some of, I mean, this is, I'm looking backward, I guess,

on a lot of this list towards the type of dramas from the previous decade. Not the kind of dramas you're thinking of. I'm talking about the madmen breaking bad sopranos where like this show could run for a minute. And I can see the collisions on the horizon. And it's thrilling. I, you don't, I'm just asking this question. Maybe I'm watching Succession wrong here, but you don't feel like that the, that the main appeal of that show is, I can't wait to see what Kieran Culkin says to whomever. I think that there's, like, one appeal to the show, but I get what you're saying. I think, I think, you know, I think that show is about the one-liners. The one-liners and the characters and hanging out with them. I don't know. Do you guys actually care about

the plot to take down the company. But you don't care about plot either. I think, yeah, you set the track. You got him. Totally fair. It's tag and bag him. I'll take it. I'll take it.

But what I'm saying is it doesn't have the one arc, right? It has the rep. I haven't seen the second season, but I can only imagine it either ends with someone either trying to take down the Brian Cox's character or someone does take down Brian Cox. That's the one arc. Who will dare I may, dare I say it, succeed him? But wait, but wait. But that's the procedural element, right?

Like, no one will, because that's how the show survived. You're trying to bait us into being like, it's Shakespearean so you can get mad at us about it, but we're not going to take it. I do think, though, to your point, the positive version. I would agree that it's Shakespearean. It is one of the things that might be appealing to us and all three of us is that it is kind of like a four quadrant show. You can watch it for the one-liners. You can watch it for memeable content. You can.

Yes. But I think it is much richer and deeper than that. But it is the rare show that is able to do, to maybe satisfy both audiences, which is why it is so, to your mind, overly represented on end of your list this year. It is not, let me ask this question about succession. Is it about the experience for you? The experience, like when you go to see the Irishman or whatever, I mean, I don't want it to compare to that.

Sure. Is it about the experience of watching it or is it about hanging out of your favorite? Oh, it's definitely about the experience. Kieran is 73 years old. He was de-aged for season two succession. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Oris Watches for over 115 years. Ours has been making purely mechanical watches in Holstein, Switzerland, staying true to a rich heritage. Orris is one of the few Swiss watch companies to remain independently owned and operated.

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in this whole new way. And as you move your body, as you move your head, as you cock your head from side to side, you hear the scene in a completely different way. To celebrate this partnership, Bose will also be releasing a limited edition Star Wars QC35 headphones to visit Bose.com slash the watch to learn more. For my number eight, I'm going to go with True Detective. It's a really good story. I never get tired of telling it. Legend shit, you know. It was January 3rd, 1995. I worked with Russ Cole for seven years. What do you know about him, Marty?

Good detective. Doesn't care about making friends. People change. You're obsessive. You're obsessive. It's not about the job. Relationships change. You need to tell me what's going on.

How many times have we had this conversation, detectives? Nothing ever changes. I think the first season is a complete and total masterpiece. And then the next two seasons are obviously very flawed. but part of the reason why I'm putting it on my list is because I don't think that there's any flawed show that I'm more engaged with the flaws. I don't know if that makes sense, but even the behind the scenes stuff where it's like the narratives about how that show is made or directors leaving or coming and whether or not the production was great. It's almost like reading about like an easy riders raging bulls thing where you're kind of like really engaged with how this must have gone wrong in places. I happen to think season three is phenomenal.

But I think, you know, season one alone would make my decade list. And I actually now have come to really, like, enjoy parts of season two, which I know is much malign and love season three. I think in the spirit of trying to draw larger themes out of the conversation about a show that my opinion of is well documented. You didn't like first season, right? I didn't. But. Which is still like the craziest thing of the world. Why didn't you like it?

Well, I'll revisit that in a second. I do want to say, I think the fact that you can be fans, that we can be fans of process now. in a way that wasn't available to audiences before, that there are podcasts like this and articles and blog posts and just it's much more visible behind the scenes and makes being fans of flawed work, whatever it may be, kind of interesting and part of television now in a way that it wasn't before.

Yeah, sure. I was just sort of a factory producing stuff that all fit into the same diecast molds. I liked season one on mute. It was beautiful. You didn't like the writing. I was not a fan of the writing. But you did like the filmmaking.

Filmmaking is beautiful. By the way, I would, I like the first season of, True Detective. I really liked it. I definitely think the filmmaking is what made the first season. I happen to love the writing in the first season. And I also think McConae and Haroldson are like... The performances were... To the best performance in the decade. So,

True Detective for me. Sam, what's your seven? What are we at? Seven? We may have talked about my seven. We did. Game of Thrones. Okay. Kai, what's your seven? Atlanta? Okay. I think we'll probably wind up having a big Atlanta conversation. We'll come back around to Atlanta. It's on everybody's list. Yes. Might be the only one on everybody's list.

That's interesting. Wow. That's probably the last one we're going to talk about. Put the Chernobyl music over that. Andy, what's your seven? Chernobyl. But thanks for burning my music here. Seven is one that I was so excited to talk about,

and I think it's on Chris's list. Might be on Sam's. Not sure if it's going to be on Kaya's, but it is the one that to me is the most criminally underrepresented on the other lists that I've seen out there, certainly in the top tens. It's the Nick.

Fuck yeah. We, mankind, have progressed so far. We live in a time of endless possibility. From such humble beginnings, through the astonishing modern world in which we now live. More has been learned about the treatment of the human body in the last five years than was learned in the previous 500. And stop pushing forward into a hopeful future.

And with every blow I land, every extra year I give to a patient, and note that at the very least, something has been one. Ah, let's do it. Up top. It is not on my list, but that's just because I never got around to watching the second season, but I love, love, love the first season. Kiat?

Never seen it. Never seen it. So the Nick is, again, it's a kind of thing that would only ever have happened in this decade where Steven Soderberg is developing a show for HBO and HBO famously, it's no longer the case because of HBO Max, but famously has a very narrow pipe development pipeline and they only program on Sunday night, so it takes a long time to get shows on the air. And he's like, well, I only want to do things fast now, so forget it. And they're like, well, what if we put it on Cinemax? And he's like, great, I'll start tomorrow.

Cinemax. I don't care to put it on screen. And so that's a show that was directed every episode by one person by the amazing Steven Soderberg. And it's so visceral and thrilling. And unlike anything else that was on TV this decade, it's a people who don't know. It is a hospital drama set in the first part of the century in New York City where medical practices were a bit different, a little less regulated, a little less sanitary, featuring absolutely stunning performances from Clive Owen and Andre Holland.

One of our first Coke addicts is a... One of our Lived Owen's doctor. First and finest cocaine addicts. By the way, don't forget Clive Owen. Yeah. You know, huge movie star. Unbelievable. And then...

And then the ongoing to be the lead in an ongoing series, it wasn't just a one-season thing. Because on TV, he could be what he truly is as more of a character actor, even though he is the lead. This was a show that also taught me, and I know Sam and I have spirited debate. about my appreciation of filmmaking in general. But I feel like I learned more about the possibilities of direction

and the camera movement from watching the Nick on television that I had learned from the time, or at least that I paid attention to, from when I, like, did my criteria and homework and watched all the movies from the 70s. When you read about how he made that show, too, where the amount of pages he was shooting a day and how he, you know, would have,

he would be sitting in a wheelchair and they would be rolling him up and down the hallways to shoot, you know, different coverage. and the show itself... And then editing it in his town car on the way home. Right. On his laptop. The show itself is about a guy

who is constantly challenging and also driving himself crazy by asking why are we doing things the way we're doing them. And in a lot of ways, that's what Soderberg has been kind of doing over the last 10 years is like, I'm going to shoot a movie on an iPhone.

I'm going to make three movies in a year. I'm going to put one up on Netflix and then one's going to go over here. I'm going to self-release and try to change the distribution model. It's such an incredible symmetry between the subject matter and the filmmaker.

himself. And if we're going to point to certain moments, just literally moments that for me were significant in terms of the art form of television in the decade. There's a scene that, Chris, you and I referenced all the time, but it's been a couple of years, so maybe we can do it again. But there's a scene, I think it's in the first season when some doctors are doing boilerplate doctors on television stuff, even though it's, you know, not ER. It's decades before, but they're talking about patients and blah, blah, blah. And you can feel Soderberg getting bored with the conversation. And so the camera starts moving and starts looking at the light fixtures and the way the light is falling in the room and you get a sense of the larger world that is telling you

just as much about the circumstance in the context as the dialogue. And something got shaken loose there in terms of what we can be interested in. And season two is very underrated. I think people watch, like, a lot of people watch season one or a fair amount of people watch season one. And then we're like, I got it. But season two is actually. Yeah, no, I need to go back. I mean, it tells a full story of this moment. The other thing, it was a really dynamic. I haven't seen, Kai, have you seen Dickinson? Yeah, I watched a few episodes. And I think they do this.

They do a lot of surgery in Dickinson too. No, but I'm mostly talking about a modern take on a very period. I mean, the music and the style of which they shot the neck, I mean, the music is... It's Cliff Martinez. It's Cliff Martinez, yeah. It's amazing. But to match that up with a 19th century, right? It was set in the 19th century.

Beginning of the 20th. But it's like, if it is full of these, I didn't know you could. could do that moments. And it's weird how, in some ways, hidebound are thinking as TV fans or even TV critics can be until you suddenly see it done a different way. And you're like, why aren't we always doing that? Yeah. I mean, it's one of the most traditional settings for a television show made in the most untraditional way possible. Why do you think that show wasn't talked about? It's way too dark and way too bloody. There are so many shots of people taking kidneys out. It's just so grotesque. Also Cinemax. I just think people didn't understand it. Cinemax as a network

and they had a show I also really loved called Banshee. I almost made me less. There's just so many people at home be like, I thought this was Skinimax. Get this stuff out. But they didn't know where to find it. And they didn't, and Cinemax was going to, that was going to be like the crown jewel their original programming. And then it was just didn't fit with the rest of what they were doing. And it just got kind of lost.

Banshee. No, it's another show, Corey. Yeah, Corrie's great. Supposed it was a great. You're right. I kind of just never. Corey narrowly missed my top 10. Corey is, I think, a masterpiece one season show.

Maybe the best pulp storytelling I've ever seen on. television and it just criminally. And you think because of Cinemax, because it was on Cinemax? It should have continued for a long time and Cinemax was shifting its focus and HBO as a company was shifting its focus and then they dithered over what to do with it and other networks were interested in it all fell apart. It's a terrible. My number seven's Black Mirror.

Drill down into the numbers. You have got a solid popularity arc here. No one is this happy. A two-year-all with a fucking balloon isn't this happy. Singularity. It's when computers learn to outsmart man like women did years ago. You are so adorable. We're genuinely empathetic as a species.

We don't actually really want to kill each other. That's my number, I think that's my number six. Is that on your list? Yeah, it's number three. Yes. Is it not on your list? It's not, but only because that version of the list where it's everyone's favorite seasons, like season one of Black Mirror would be top five seasons probably of the decade for me.

But I was doing two things. I was cheating a little bit because I was trying to find shows that were less individually anthologized to champion. But also the batting average is not as high as it once was. I guess so. But influence. I still think that there's a lot to like about the later seasons. And it's the show that did the most this decade. Yeah.

It's funny. It's heartbreaking. It's terrifying. It can be sentimental. It can be sentimental. Yeah. But in a great way, in a genuine way. It's satirical.

Yeah. It's relevant. I mean, there's just so many, the filmmaking is amazing. And every time I start an episode of Black Mirror, even though there is certain kind of like tricks they do, I'm still like, I have no idea what's going to happen. Yeah. And that's kind of like the coolest feeling.

It's like the screen cracks thing, you know, like the Black Mirror screen cracks and you're like, anything can happen right now. And even when you're like, wow, they really swung and mistier, they really swing hard. Kaya, as someone who is slightly younger than us, In a good way. I'm wondering, how did this show enter your life and what is it, what role does it play in your life?

For me, I think it was really the first show that I felt like accurately depicted on television how destructive technology can be and how destructive social media can be. And like, I think there's episode that's stuck with me, the longest is the Bryce Dallas Howard one where she's going through and rating. Yeah, no side. The one where every single interaction is rated. And like it felt just close enough to home where I was like, this feels like it could be reality. And this feels like 20 years down the road. This could be our situation. And just like so elegantly, I think, depicted the way that social media leads us to like commodify every interaction that we have.

I hope it never stops. I mean, like just in the last few years, they've done a black and white horror movie. Yeah. They've done a choose-your-own adventure thriller. They've done a deep, like, I just hope that they just keep making it. By the way, you said something really crucial there. You said movie. A lot of times those episodes do have, I think that episode in particular, maybe.

Made it in the nation is like two hours longer. Yeah. And I think that that's great because you're not singing in the theaters to get really smart, adult-themed sci-fi movies. Yeah. In a television show, that's awesome. I love, you know, for a show that is. so pessimistic, let's say, about the role technology plays in our lives. It is such a triumph of a partnership that's emerged with Netflix and Charlie Brooker where they basically say,

do what you want. Try it. Do you want to do Christmas special? Do a Christmas special. Do three, do nine, do a choose your own adventure movie that radicalizes our technology and, you know, do it. That is a fantastic way forward for creators, I think, if they can have a relationship like that. Sam, what's your number six? Well, that was my number six. Okay. So, Kai, what's your number six? My number six was Succession. Great. Andy? The Americans. This work can be too much for people, even the best ones. It's just that somewhere I don't exactly know how something got lost.

You're going to have to make a decision to commit to this life or to get out. It's not easy and it doesn't always end well. You know, not everybody around the world wants us to be able to live in peace. There are people out there who don't like our way of life. The only way to get to peace is to stand firm against those who wish us harm. And believe me, they do wish us harm. Chris Ryan's favorite show. Nothing but respect for my president.

Go ahead. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Is it on your list, Kaya, the Americans? I've never seen it. I've never seen it. It has dimmed slightly in my estimation only because of... Because we're all Russian spies. Because it's a little too close to home.

That was almost quaint. Some of where it ended up in the last season made me question some of the things that had happened before. But on a week-to-week basis, again, it's an old-fashioned type of affection. I truly loved its just narrow, narrow focus on the emotional contours of a marriage. And week-to-week, getting that type of storytelling with actors like Carrie Russell and especially Matthew Reese was a treat. I love watching it. I love writing it about it and thinking about it. And that's another thing where the first half of the decade, I mean, I stopped being a full-time

writing TV critic in 2015, right when you were starting making Mr. Robot, basically. I was done. But five years ago, and it's very hard to separate shows from the first half of the decade from my relationship to writing about them and thinking about them and the shows that made me excited to explore things. I think that's fair. I think because I remember watching Game and I remember where I was when I started talking about the Red Wedding. It's actually not even called The Red Wedding that episode. I love when show, I remember listening to the Cliff Martinez soundtrack. from the Nick. Like when when shows can do that, you can enter your lives like that and it's actually part of your memory bank, I think that's that says a lot. So that was six for you. Six for

me is the Nick. Sam, what's your number five? Mine Hunter. We travel around the country and teach FBI techniques to cops. You guys mind if I bother you for a minute? She was found cuffed and lashed to the bed. How can we help? We should be using every resource we can. Talking to the smartest people we find from the broadest possible spectrum. Are criminals born? Or are they formed? Psychopaths are convinced that there's nothing wrong with them. So these men are virtually impossible to study.

Yet you have found a way in near perfect laboratory conditions. Hello, ladies. That's what makes this so exciting and potentially so far reaching. I assume it's on the other. It is? Yeah. And mine. The same place in everybody's list.

Kaya? Not on my list. Not on your list. Have you seen it? Mm-hmm. And? It's fine. I mean, it's good.

It's good. But like, I don't know. This generation. I'm drawing. We move fire than I usually do. This is a fun podcast. Who asked Kaya to be a part of this? Kaya is the sin eater for this podcast.

Let's talk about mine owner. I love it. So you finish two. Yeah. Yeah. It is almost unfathomable that two got was better than one. You know, the four-hour Carl Franklin movie at the end of season two. The Andrew Dominic episode is so brilliant.

The first three Finchers, the way in which it can do thematic work, but really is about the immediate thing that these guys are trying to find the answer to at any given moment. And the recreation of the Atlanta Child Murder stuff is just, was fly-ragasting. And the resistance to being a regular detective cop, we're going to solve mysteries. There's a lane there that we didn't know existed for telling this type of story. That said, I do like hanging out with the actors. I do. And I think the personal stuff in season two took a huge leap in terms of...

But it's doing both. It's doing everything. It is. It's doing everything. And it's just the craftsmanship, I mean, alone would, you know, just blow my mind. But like, the fact that every... Like, the performances between, I mean, Holt especially, I just... It's an amazing performance.

And it's such a great example of TV acting where it's like the first season he's a, he's a specific archetype. And even though you see a little bit of humanity in him, you're like, okay, I get that guy, but he seems like the kind of the grizzled old top scene at all. And then the second season, they tear him down. They tear him down and they show like he's got to be more ambitious. He's got to try more.

But then he's also got this vulnerability at home. It's just amazing. To me, it's a super dark show that's very entertaining. And that is something Fincher does time and time again. He takes something that could be really dark, a really could feel like a slog, not, you know, something you don't necessarily want to sit down and watch, but he just,

he just energizes it. I don't know how he does it, but it's just rivet. People have asked me, like, if I watch TV differently, 80 takes, that's how he does it. Having made a show and no show has, like watching Mind Hunter's Season 2, which I couldn't watch during production because I just couldn't put my head in that space,

but watching it post-production, I just watch it with my jaw on the floor because it's so exceptionally done and they don't sit any plays out. Like the production design in every room they walk into, of every location, all of which are in Pittsburgh somehow, but they find places for all of them. Every actor seems like the greatest actor ever for that part.

The fact that there are these long, long, long scenes, like when you were mentioning Sam, and they're dialogue-based scenes, but they are riveting and they break every rule because they're just people sitting at a table but you can't look away. I love it. Why is it meant for you?

I'm just curious. Is it too dark? It's not too dark. I think it's just a lot of people. in rooms talking and like... And like this podcast right now. And yeah, I guess that just... I don't know.

That just wasn't for me. I mean, it's good. I did not saying I did... But it's interesting to think about it in relationship to something like unbelievable because there has been criticism levied against Mindhunter that it is like kind of like basically taking the victims of these crimes and making them like parts of a piece of paper or photograph whereas unbelievable is

very much like almost told from the victim perspective. Right. Yeah, I guess it just like emotionally it did not. connect with me. Like the storyline that stayed with me the most out of all of them is the one and forgive me, I'm forgetting the names of the characters, but the father whose son is like starting to exhibit like serial killer tendencies. And they're really freaked out. And like that's like the storyline that stay with me the most emotional one. Yeah. And you're watching what happened with me week to week. It's interesting because I think he gets that knock a lot that his Fincher I'm talking about,

that his films or shows are not very emotional, they're colder. But for me, it's emotional because of the experience of watching it, not necessarily the journey of one specific character. It's more of the whole thing. Well, I also think that sometimes, like, for as much as I'm sure,

he oversees every element of the production, I think that the Andrew Dominic episode is different than the Fincher episodes. And the Carl Franklin episodes are very different than the Fincher and Andrew Dominic episodes. You know, they have like a different kind of sense of place with the recreation of Atlanta in the early 80s. So it's an interesting case where we're like kind of referring to Fincher, but I think that there was a lot of things going on in that show.

We should also give a shout out to Courtney Miles who came on in the second season and wrote a lot of the episodes and who'd worked with Fincher as an AD on some of his movies. And because it is Fincher show, there's no question about it. I mean, the aesthetic, what interests him, what drives him, the perfectionism. But the humanity of the show, I think, took a huge leap forward in season two, which, Of course, you should get credit for it as well, but I do think the scripts took a big week. There's this really great moment on the, Bill Simmons did a podcast with Matt Damon.

And Matt Damon was talking about going down to the Gone Girl set to watch them shoot one day to visit Affleck, obviously, and that they were shooting in like a bookstore. And they like set up the shot. And it was like a, however long it was like a dolly shot to follow people going through these different rows of a bookstore. And they start the action in Affleck and Rosam and Pikes are kind of doing their scene. And Fincher just turns to like turns around

and whoever and is just like, who the fuck walks like that? And he's talking about like an extra. And there's like an extra in the background of this bookstore who's like walking. He's like, nobody fucking walks like that. Nobody fucking walks like that. Cut.

And then somebody goes to do makeup on Rosamemann Pike and they're walking through the frame. And he goes, that's how somebody walks. And his whole thing is like he is so attuned to those kinds of details that that's what you can kind of see at work in Mindhunter. It's like, when you watch it, you're like, oh, that is actually how somebody eats

that kind of food. Right. You know, it's like those little things are amazing. I've seen as many people walk correctly as Kaya has seen episodes of Game of Thrones. I would never notice that. Kyle, what's your number five? So I have number five is girls. I actually, I was close to putting girls on my list.

By the way, I really love girls. No one talks about girls anymore. Yeah, I was kind of surprised how many lists it was left off of considering how much conversation it took up for so long and how many people were made so upset and mad online about it. And I think a lot of the criticism that gets levied at it is fair. And it's very like focusing on like four upper class white women living in New York City. And like it's not very representative. But I also think people were trying to make it be a lot more than it was. And they were making it try to be the millennial show. Like this is supposed to be representative of an entire generation. And it's like, no, it's just about like four people who are pretty unlawful. likable, but have redeeming qualities and, like, they're living the Brooklyn upper or mid-20s life. It's a really interesting thing because, like, what we were talking about in the beginning

where you were talking about getting into TV coming from features and coming into television, and Lena done it was a similar thing where she had made tiny furniture and then she makes girls for HBO. That show should not have been as long as it was. That show was about a very specific moment in these people's lives. And because it was of its popularity, they kept having to come up with reasons. for the four or five of these people to keep meeting up or keep being in each other's lives.

In no other realm would that have happened. But I would say, but to that point, I would say a lot of the successful episodes of the show were little shorts and little, little, those were the best episodes. Like boys. I remember that, I think the episode was called boys. Yeah.

Where it focused on the Adam drives that and I think of the whole episode or the Panic in Central Park episode, which is one of the best episodes of the decade. Is it Patrick Wilson? Other man's trash. Yeah. When I view the show like that, when I think about the show,

show like that, whereas honestly, like Black Mirror, it's like an anthology of Bulls Shorts about these misadventures in New York City through the point of view of these four women. I just think that's where the show really shined. I agree with you, though, the serialized part where they sort of kept insisting on like somehow, Jemima Kirk's character and Lina Dunham's character would still know each other. Yeah. I totally agree. I just think for me, the inconsistencies of that show were built into it. It was baked into it. That's kind of what it was. It was kind of a cinematic finishing school art experiment for them. Sometimes they tried to make traditional TV.

Sometimes they tried to make just a short film. Sometimes they were both in the same episode. I think the highs were incredibly high in some of the highest of the decade. So that's Kai's five. What's your five? Man, Chris is moving. We were Mind Hunter for all of us in five. So four, for me, now we're getting into it.

Now we're at the leftovers for me. And I kind of feel like it's left. I assume that's not on your list, right? Leftovers is not on my. I assume it's not on your list? I've never seen it. Okay. Leftovers with a small 1A, I think Watchman, for me, is almost a continuation of leftovers.

Watchman's not on my list. Maybe it would be with some more time and perspective because I love Watchman. Would you say Watchman is as good so far? I would. Well, you don't like the leftovers. I like the leftovers, but I would say that Watchman does a lot of the things that... Yeah, it's all... It's kind of... It's Damon's thing, you know, and I'm a big fan of it.

And I think leftovers is so fascinating because I'm putting it very high on my level. list, even though I have not changed my opinion about the first season being incredibly difficult, almost unwatchable at times. And I love the first season. It was because it was difficult. Yeah. I mean, I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to be trolling. No, I know. No, I remember being shocked that people didn't like the first season. Although there were a few folks out there. And what was the knock on it? It was too dark. My thing about the first season was that it was so relentlessly, punishingly grim. And I don't. It was about grief. Yeah. And I don't. But I think that the thing that makes darkness interesting is when there's some light there too. I think that people, you know,

Damon has said this when he's talked about the change from season one to two is that he was remembering that people laugh at funerals, even when it's inappropriate. And I think it, he found the right calibration in the second and third season. And it was calibrated to a type of just raw emotion that is almost unprecedented on television. And it was a motion that was all the full rainbow of emotions. It was not just grief. It was all the messy other stuff that goes with it. And in addition to being a character study and a weird head trip, And those last two, the craftsmanship in terms of writing, especially. It's so good, yeah.

Especially once you get to that third season where it's just like this jewel box, every episode was worked over and worried over it, but it doesn't feel strained for it. It feels all the better for it. Didn't it almost feel like every episode was a bottle episode? Yeah. It was just this hard. Especially the second two seasons.

Yeah. I had a conversation with Alison Herman over at the office about the combination of like the Tom Perada suburban malaise sensibility. meeting Damon's kind of high concept stuff, and how the tension of that was really, like, one of the driving forces behind that show because a lot of that show is and does become, you know, basically trying to recreate family

out of, like, the sort of shattered pieces of what's left after this event. And those two things are always constantly kind of like up against each other there. So leftovers is on your list as well. It's number... It was... I had said it already, right? Nine. I was waiting for...

Okay. So that's four for you. my four is better call Saul. Will atone. What can we do for you, Jimmy? The money is beside the point. Money is the point. Does this be paid a to you, huh? You know, Jimmy, in our line of work,

you can get so caught up in the idea of winning. Do you forget to listen to your heart? Okay, so this is a show that I didn't. On anyone else's list? Nobody here has better call Saul on their list? Overlooked once again, even by me. Wow. Let me just say

Better Call Saul, to me, the craftsmanship, it's like what I was trying to say about Mind Hunter, craftsmanship off the charts, amazing, the writing,

the performances, the filmmaking, everything, I don't care about doc review. I don't, I don't care about, I don't care about, I don't care about

the first two seasons. The first two seasons I felt that way, I think in the last two seasons are unparalleled. Like, the last season I would put up against almost anything on TV. So good.

And I, And to be fair, I've seen three episodes of the last season. I didn't continue on, but I'll have to. When it hits Netflix, whatever, just do it. I'll revisit. It's just been, for all the reason Sam said, and then once you get out of like the doc review stuff, which I think is challenging, but is also like,

I can't believe they made a show about Docker review for two seasons. It's fucking amazing. It's like a lot of what you watch is like people highlighting papers. So I've talked a lot about Better CallSall recently. I was a latecomer. I'm a convert. the first two seasons can be viewed differently after seeing the second two seasons. So that's my number four.

What's your number four? Fargo. Fargo. So I'm getting excited about that seminar. The witch? Life Spring. Everybody's doing it. Got us a room at the Sheraton.

I don't know. We're saving up right now so it can buy the butcher shop. We got a plan, you know? The word we is a castle, hon, with a moot and a drawbridge. Don't be a prisoner or we. Where's my brother? Are you listening to me? Is he listening to me?

He cut off his ears. He's dead, I think. And I loved every season, including the third. I actually still don't quite understand the knock on the third season. The third one's the Ewan McGregor season? Yeah, I thought that was great. The second season, obviously, is the best season. It's a masterpiece.

Yeah. You'd be top five seasons of the decade for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, I mean, the fact that he could reboot with different cast of characters, a different storyline, and then on top of even a different time period and continually be that funny and that thrilling because it's not just, to me, it never felt

just like a rip-off of the Coen brothers. He was definitely taking a different skew on it. And it's just a pleasure to watch from episode to episode. And they do the similar thing the leftovers does, which is almost feels like a bottle episode. They do these shifts and these pans between different characters. There's one of the things that I think is the most inspirational for making Briar Patch was that second season and the elasticity of the storytelling where he doesn't. And this is the thing that I learned in being in a room with him. Like the first day where I was like for a different project where I pitched a Busby Berkeley musical number. And I didn't know you weren't really baby supposed to do that. And he was like, yes, we should do that. Why don't we do that? There is no reason not to. Because if it's the best vehicle to tell the story you want to tell, then chase it. It's also incredibly witty. I mean, I mean, I don't see that a lot.

I think it's, I get that a lot of dramas, especially. They add humor to add levity, but there's something just a little more clever about Fargo, just a little sharper, a little smarter. You know, like the one-liners aren't just to get me to laugh, but they're also to get me to think. It's, it's great. Is it on your list? It's not on my list, but the second season would be on my best season's list. I know it's on your list because of not. Not on my list.

Did you watch it, though? No. Not one. Not one episode. I think I might have watched half of the first season. And you didn't. What app was open when you were watching? Did you actually ever see the film Fargo?

Yeah, I have watched the film Fargo. It's good. She doesn't think there should be a TV show based on a masterpiece like that. Oh. Yes, exactly. Kyle, what's your number four? My number four is Bojack Horseman. Everyone is just out to get me because I'm famous and so well adjusted.

Yeah, it's me. Straight off your TV screens and into your shitty lives. It's Andrew Garfield! Oh, hello. What? My book's coming out soon. Who? Someone to the door.

You don't even respect me, not to have a baby with me. I never explicitly said that. Oh, isn't he the cutest baby you ever saw? What? What? No, no, what? I was wondering if that was going to show up. Yeah.

It would be an honorable mention for me, probably. It's extremely smart, extremely, like, extremely funny. I think it goes a lot of really surprising places. And it's, yeah, it's just well done. I could see that show could have been, after a couple seasons, they could have been like, let's make this into Family Guy or Simpsons. Yeah, exactly. Like they could have just had each year, there's no character growth or anything.

It's like this guy, get this guy's like a drunken, loud. He's got like all these people in his mist and we're just going to do one-liner, one-liner bit, bit gag. And then they made it into this pretty affecting character study. Yeah, exactly. Literally, like, is following someone as they, like, deal with the repercussions of their actions. They, you so, I feel like you so rarely get to see people on TV get better. Yeah, especially not horses.

Not definitely no horse. And yeah, it doesn't go in the other, like, direction of other animated sitcoms where... I'm thinking about luck as an example of a show. Those horses did not have a forces to not get better. A much of a character. Wait, where were you saying, Kyle? It doesn't go, like, in the family. It doesn't stoop to the family guy level.

It doesn't have to be, like, animated doesn't have to be like gross and dirty and just playing for laugh after laugh after laughed. It can be smart and funny. It can use the tools of animation to go in places that like live TV can. And in some of the ways in which like I think, you know, we've talked a little bit about like our ability to process darkness or deal with darkness on like a week, week basis, there's a distancing mechanism by having all these animals acting out this very human pain that I think makes it a little bit easier to process in these bites. What's your number three? I love animals on TV. TV. This is a recurring theme.

Okay, so now we're in the top three, and this is like pick-em for me, because these are the most, it's in my mind the most incredible achievements of the decade, and I love them all, and there were versions of this list where each one was in the top spot. I ended up putting, much of Sam's chagrin, look, he's waiting, looking, he's leaning forward, Twin Peaks the Return at number three. The reason why, and I almost kind of, and I kind of slashed it too, too, because it's too low? Twin Peaks, the return is like the 2001 of this decade. And it's not going to be on your list at all, right? It is the best. And it's not going to be on your list at all. And it's, that to me is the thing that I was like.

Here's my caveat. Go ahead. It's the best thing I saw on TV this decade. It's the most moving thing. It's the most inspiring thing. It's the best thing. I kind of wanted to make the list lean more towards this older, maybe older fashion version of TV. I know, man.

And it's hard to compare what Twin Peaks. Peaks was as a singular achievement. And I also kind of slashed it with Top of the Lake because Top of the Lake was also super meaningful to me and inspirational to me. You can't even give Twin Peaks a spot on to itself. It's its own thing. This is like Peek though.

Like you got to get your thing, but you also like threw Top of the Lake on there. Well, at the end I was like I have to put terriers on the list and I ran out of space. It's a little unfair. You guys let me make the rule. It doesn't make any sense. And to deal with Twin Peaks.

That's just offensive. Look. Yeah, go ahead. Are we talking about Twin Peaks now? Yes. Because it's number one. It's obviously number one on my list. By a mile,

it's not even close. It's an achievement and every, it's what I was talking about. It is an experience unlike anything else. And it angers me to no end that it doesn't. I mean, I remember the hype and I remember the reviews and it was off the charts. And then it just like went away.

And I don't think people talk about it. It's not on anyone else's, it's not on your list, right, Chris or Kaya's right? And I just, to me, that's galling. Like, I don't get it.

I don't get it. Were you a Twin Peaks fanatic before the return? Yes. Well, you know, I have problems with the second season. Right. But the mythology of the show, the sort of. I love the David Lynch episodes of the second season. I didn't know, I've talked about this before in the podcast.

I love Twin Peaks so completely and utterly more than any. Well, see, I'm not that. It dominated my life. And I didn't know at age 12, 13, 14, whatever it was. That, like, they had moved Lynch off of it. I didn't know you could dis. loved something, I didn't have the critical facilities to be like, well, I still love it, but I like, give me more of it. Give me more of it. That's how I felt about Nightcourt.

That's how my children feel about outtakes from Frozen 2. Like, it's just like, give me all of this because it's all the thing that I love. And so going back, yes, season two definitely drag. That is funny. I wonder, that's almost like the mirror phase. You know, it's like when you recognize yourself the first time? It's like, when is the first time you're like, the show's not as good as it used to be? Because like at first you're just like, I can't believe that I love this family so much, like you're watching a sitcom or something. I just want to watch this every week. And then, like, when's the first time you're like, that wasn't as funny as it used to be?

Or that's not as like, I wonder when that happens for most people. That, that to me happened very early with anything I used to watch. And that's kind of why I don't, I didn't love the television model of, okay, I get it. They're going to solve the fucking crime at the end of this episode in the same, literally at the same time code out of the episode. The Law & Air thing. Yeah. I love hanging out of these people.

I can't anymore with this thing. The place that Twin Peaks, I mean, every piece of it is valuable. Every piece of the journey is just incredible and astounding. But specifically the end for people who made it that far, and we're not going to spoil it if it can be spoiled, did something emotionally and narratively that has, I don't think it's without equal. And I still think about it all the time.

And my thought is not, oh, I hope they make a fourth season to resolve this. My thought is, how did they reach this place in me emotionally by telling a detective story without end? And I still feel deeply satisfied and deeply challenged by it. And if you were to do the best episodes of the decade. Yeah, eight would be. Eight would be number one by far. But there's four other episodes that would probably take up my top ten.

I'm not joking. Like, that's how phenomenal this show is from every level. And it's a master at work. I, by the way, we'd probably say it's one of the best things he's ever done, Lynch. I agree. I also think that this is every year when we do some version of this podcast, I try to, and maybe Chris tries to get a little cute too, but like try to not game the system or rig it, but like try to make it like we're still writing the long essay for Granland. And I'm like, well, but I have to cover these bases and I want to make this point. And that's why I was like, well, if this decade was about these individual artistic achievements, maybe more so than the ongoing series model, I just don't think Twin Peaks and Top of the Lake, which are not equal in quality, though I love them both, were singular autourist achievements. the person making them, Jane Campion,

the case of Top of the Lake and Twin Peaks. And you liked Top of the Lake season two a lot. I really liked it. It's nothing, it's not nearly as good as season one. Yeah, I didn't finish that. And also... I never saw it. I never saw the first season. Couldn't make a list without the mayor of television, Elizabeth Moss on it. That's right. Performance in Top of the Lake.

So number three is Twin Peaks for you. Number three for me is succession. What's yours? Number three, this is going to be controversial. Oh. Number three, this is... I love controversy. If I were to do the best shows

of the 2019 Euphoria already so it would be my number one. Number two was because they had such a perfect second season and honestly it got canceled but the first

both seasons are great but the second season just took it to another level the OA number three. I want you to close your eyes. I want you to imagine everything I tell you as if you're there yourself. as if you're with me, as if you are me. Present for all of it.

The biggest mistake I made was believing that if I cast a beautiful net, I'd catch one in beautiful things. Fuck yeah, Sam. Go for it, man. How is your protest going? So let me just say, because you know what, here's the thing, here's the thing. Let me just say this. I just went on and on about Twin Peaks, right? David Lynch, who, I've ripped off David.

Every fucking filmmaker rips off David Lynch. And it shows, like you can tell. And everyone's like, okay, you're doing the David Lynch thing. You're being weird. But it's not, it's a little like you're trying to rip off somebody else and not doing a great job of it. The OA is not trying to rip off David Lynch, but they are just as genuinely weird as David Lynch.

It is sincerely, like, there's two things this year where it was the OA season two and too old to die young where I was like, I didn't think. people could get away with this anymore. And I guess it's just like one of those things where they're like, here's the 10 hours and they're like, thanks, we'll just upload this. But like, it is unreal. Did you see it? I did.

I honestly did just really don't understand what happened at all in the second season. And I'm like a pretty bright guy. What do you need to understand anything for? I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to sit here and understand everything that Twin Peaks to return. I think when the octopus showed up, I was just like, I fucking loved it. I'm having this intense flashback to Sam because we're, you're,

office where we are sitting right now used to be like the writer's room here. And when we were working together for the first time on Metropolis was when OA Season 1 was on. And what was I saying? I think you came in and did the dance one day. I love that. No, I mean, but, but. I love that. And I remember being a little, I don't know if it made, it probably did make my top 10 list that year, but it was probably as high.

Because I remember the first season, I was like, it was a little more conventional in how it was trying to like unravel this. For the first part of it. Yeah. It's like, is she an angel? But man, the second season, I mean, they just let their hair lose. And it's fucking thrilling. And the other thing is, it's not...

When the octopus shows up. What is it? You just said, when the octopus shows up. I mean, I haven't seen it. I mean, that's my point. And that's not even the craziest thing that happens in that season. That's just when you're like, I don't know, I don't understand, like, what's going on. But to me, it's not, see, to me, like, yes, there are shows.

There's, like, style over substance, and you don't know, they're just doing fucked up shit. and you're, and you can tell they're just trying to shock you. I think it's really, you could sense, at least for me, when I was watching it, this is, they're saying something. They're emotionally invested in what they're showing me right now. The sincerity of the show and the lack of irony is, I think, in some ways, really refreshing. It's fucking great.

Kyle, what's your number three? My number three is Black Mirror. Great. Greenwald? I did my three. Did your three. My number three. It was succession, right?

It's succession. So number two, two, Sam. Atlanta's my number two as well. Do we want? Oh, great. Atlanta's my number one. Big time. Kaya?

Atlanta was my number seven. Seven, okay. Right, right, right. Let's talk about it. All right. I mean. We done everyone else's number one? We have.

I did Throne Pigs. Thones and Peaks. Let's jump out of the, let's jump out of order then because what's your number? My number two is Fleabag. You know when you've done everything? What? Scott. And you've even.

Do you want to have sex? No. And you feel great. And even though your sister still hates you. Thank you. You're pretending to be friends because your dad is... I'm joking, he's just there. Here's to love.

Let's do Fleabagg. Because that's my number two also, just briefly. Oh, you started, Kaya, because... It was just... I don't think I've ever watched a show that left me feeling like I'd been, like, emotionally, like, flattened like that. Like, I remember vividly, like, finishing it that night, like, crying, going to bed. and then like waking up and still feeling like really emotional about it. And it just like, it really stuck with me.

And I don't know. It's sometimes when you're watching TV, I feel like in this time, it begins to become hard to like separate liking a show from like everybody likes the show and everybody's talking about it. So it's like, am I finishing fleabag and thinking about it so much because everybody is continuing to have a conversation about it and like it's online and like everybody's talking about it.

So it's still on my mind, or is it still on my mind because it was like genuinely boring into you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Flewbagg genuinely stayed with me because it was like really, really like just really good. Really well done. Yeah. I mean, I think it is one of, I think season one is phenomenal. I love season one.

I thought the writing is so exhilarating and fresh and her performance is fantastic. And the journey and the surprise, like the trapdoor level of storytelling. where you think you're watching one sort of thing that maybe feels a little familiar, and then actually you're watching a wrenching emotional tragedy, and it can be all of those things at once. The idea that human experiences all of the emotions sometimes when you least expect them in an overwhelming way, like we were talking about the leftovers, to see that in season one of Fleabag was one thing.

I think season two is like a singular achievement. I think it is one of the greatest seasons of television ever made. And what it accomplishes and the profundity with which it says it, while also being fucking hilarious and charming and delightful and sex. and all the other things, I'm just, I'm totally floored by it. And I've only watched it once and I am very much in the minority from people who love it who use the, because the delivery method matters. And we're talking about that.

And the fact that it's, you know, six half hour episodes. Not even like 20 something. Shorter. I mean, my wife has watched it multiple times and continues to go back to it. But think about everything that happens in that, in those six episodes. And it's like, that's enough for any, I mean, like all the stuff going on at like Claire's job and like all the little things like the little plot lines that happen in that in that season and what you really think about obviously is is fleabag and the priest but there's plenty of stuff

stuffed into that second season that's like it's so crazy because i i loved the first season fleaback which by the way did not get talked a lot talked about a lot at the time but that was a slow burn that was i see i loved i thought i thought i thought it was crazy another case though where i think that people were looking at those as discrete things and like actually season two make season one all the more profound and vice versa. Well, so my issue with season two, and again, I love everyone involved.

I love the writing, the directing, and I love all the actors. And forgive me, what's the actor's name that plays the priest? Andrew Scott. Brilliant. I just.

All of Fame performance. I just, I loved his performance. I just did not, for whatever reason, I was not understanding why this relation. I mean, and people,

call me crazy. It's like, he's the hot priest. I didn't, I didn't get it. Well, no, I think that that's actually at, I think that's a lot of the times when shows get talked about, and I think that this is partially because of like, you know, you see somebody in passing or you're not trying to really get into like incredibly uncomfortable material with somebody on a one-to-one basis at like the figurative water cooler. But this is a show about God. It's a show about faith. It's a show about what love actually is and what it looks like. And those are complicated things to discuss. So I think a lot of the times people are using a short hand of like hot priest for her speech about, you know, like the speech that that she gives

at the wedding is like, oh, that pretty much. But so I'm, you know, weirdly, romantic comedies is like, I love, that's one of my favorite genres. I grew up watching. I want to have my heartstrings. Sure. Tug that. And I, for that speech, I remember leaning into my laptop.

Please feel like I wanted to feel something. I just, because I wasn't really invested. What was open on your laptop when we were watching television? I think that's the problem. The Mueller report. It's been a busy year. We should begin to wrap this up, but I have to do this because it's one of the things that I think is worth mentioning about Fleaback Season 2.

It's so interesting and so exciting potentially for the future of television because it's not done very often or very well is something that a show we're not supposed to talk about. Sam, your show has done also, which is Breaking of the Fourth Wall. Which did way better. I loved... See, that's another thing. I loved that point where he was noticing that she was doing it.

But then I felt like I wasn't... What was the... I wonder if that's actually, like, some... Maybe what you're getting at here is, like, the very best part about that show is that it understood the temporality of, like, our attention span.

And, like, you can get so invested. And I think we could talk about Atlanta in the same way, where it's like, you're watching this episode, and you're just like, I feel like I've been... Like, I'm so... so fucking locked into this world. That segues.

And then he's really good at this. I mean, God. But I think that like we often talk about these things in a kind of like, I'm a busy guy. And like it's really important that these shows are only 25 minutes because I absolutely work for Waste our Royco. Get on fucking Twitter and look at see if Maggie Haberman has said anything in the last five minutes. But like in reality, like these shows are actually like dialed into what do you actually need

to see? What do you actually need to know and hear and feel about these people that you could do in this amount of time rather than just an hour because we decided we needed four commercial breaks. You know what I mean? Like these kinds of things are arbitrary. And I think Atlanta and Fleabag get to the point. And they get to the point sometimes by not getting to a point at all. Exactly. That's the thing about Atlanta is

it gets to the point, but it takes its time. Yeah. This is Paperboard. If you're tuned into the fresh mix rap playlist, Long live fresh. Let's do it again. And just like this time like you're at a party and everything's crazy. and you enjoy it taking its time.

And that's when you know it's when you over. The thing that I love about, I'll say, about Mr. Robot and Fleabag was this, it actually, both your show and Phoebe's show, address the intimacy we feel with television, address directly the comfort level we can feel with things being piped directly to us on our couches. And I think that's really exciting. And it's confronting the medium head on in a way that feels very of the moment and relevant to the way we engage with things. The thing about Atlanta and what makes it, I think, you know, the masterpiece of the decade and it's exciting that there's more to come is that it doesn't feel like it came in any way from anything that came before. Right.

It is so completely removed from any strand of television DNA that it feels separate from everything else on any of our lists. And I think about how hard that is, not just as a creator or someone trying to make it in the industry to say, I'm just going to do something sideways. I'm going to get my friends in a house, some of my friends who usually I just make music with, and I'm just going to make this show, and you're going to put it on the air. But I think back to one of the first meetings that we had, Sam, when I was, you read the Briar Patch script, and you were like, you liked it? And you're like, so what happens in season two? And I was like, well, in season two, Allegra Dill will get involved with the border issue with some. And I was like, I immediately became the most conservative person in the medium, because I thought maybe that's what

people wanted to hear because I wanted to make this. And you were like, why would she, why would she have another murder? That's dumb. I was like, that's really important. Because I probably said something like that in a review two months prior. Right. And as soon as I was in my turn in the barrel, I was like, what do you want? Do you want a spin off? I'll do a spin off. There was something natural about wanting to please this, you know, more conservative way of thinking. And Atlanta just says, fuck you to that entire way of thinking every week. I agree with that. And actually, this kind of reminds me of a conversation I have with my little brother. So he's a huge fan of the watch.

I've tried to discourage that. We're a huge fan of the family. And he kept asking me, so when are you going on the pod? I want to hear you top 10 in 2019. I said, well, you know, we're doing the decade. We're not going to do 2019. Then so then he obviously goes off and makes his list. Right, of course.

And he shares it with me. And number two is Mr. Robot. And I was like, how fucking dare you? How the fuck is it not number? number one is Atlanta. How the fuck is it not number one? How dare you? And one thing he said,

which I totally own to, and this is why I love the OA, this is why I love Atlanta, and this is why Twin Pigs. That's why they're the top three. It is, his remark was, just to finish that point,

Sam, you reference a lot of shit, Mr. Robot. It takes borrows from a lot of the stuff that you watch growing up. Atlanta just doesn't feel, that way. It's wholly unique. It feels more like it's referencing

real life. Yeah. And that it's then synthesized into this creative experience that seems to be not influenced by anything but real life. Oh, and casually, out of the four actors, three of them might be the best actors of your generation. Just like low-key

phenomenal. And the directors, including Donald Glover, are just off-the-charts, talented and amazing, and framing shots and playing with sound in a way that other shows and films don't do. That to me is this, to be that good and that unique at the same time, that to me is the hat trick.

The disparity that we've been talking about is this idea of comfort. I mean, part of the serialized television, comfort is built into it. You kind of, even if you want to be challenged week to week, you want, that's comforting to know what you're going to get week to week. But the hardest trick to pull off is to feel comfortable. in uncertainty. And with Atlanta, we trust them. And they've just delivered.

It could be anything. It can be anything every week. And we know that. And that makes us feel excited and ready to sit down and take it in. What Chris just said, that's the exciting thing about Atlanta. I have no fucking clue

what they're doing in season three or season four, apparently. I think they're doing that. Yeah. But that's, how many shows can you say that about? I mean, even to one of your favorite shows, succession.

has to play by... Succession, you kind of know what you're gonna get next season. Yeah, but even like something like Black Mirror, which can literally have different actors and a different genre, it's still kind of like, I bet you didn't know this was bad for you.

Or Game of Thrones or Watchmen. You know, because even if the thing that you know is going to happen is there's going to be some searing emotional, you know, unpacking because that's what Damon does, even when it surprises me... See, I think Atlanta can do that one week. It can do that too. Or it could do that for a whole season. It did. It did it with Paper Boys

mother. Yeah. Right. The Woods episode. Yeah. All right. So, so we've talked, Fleabags, your number two. Atlanta number one. You have Atlanta high. Number two, Twin Peaks number one. I have Atlanta to Game of Thrones one. One A is Baby Yoda gifts.

Just like a big post of baby Yoda gifts. Too many cooks deserves a shadow. What's your two and one? I really have to be the last reveal. My number one is Veep. What colossal fuck up are we dealing with this morning? You said you had it covered. It's your job.

to know that if I say I have it covered, I don't have it covered, and you cover me. This is what happens when you tell the truth. Nothing good comes of it. Publish everything. They don't want to have to read everything. I mean, you can't read everything. I don't read half the stuff I'm supposed to. It's a level of incompetence in this office is staggering. Liam Miller, NASA. That's an acronym for National Air Nine. I stop it. I'm Vice President. I like this room. This is great.

Yeah, it's a presidential suite. Vice Presidential anyway. Are you feeling? Well, I'm a political. political leper, and I'm an emotional time bomb. So here's an idea. Let's put me on stage. Oh, wow.

So, Kaya said this to me. I said, I was very proud of myself because I was like, yeah, you know, I'm going to go parts unknown. And Kaya was like, oh. Where would parts of known? It would have been like five. Okay. Yeah. And I was like, I was going to go part.

And she was like, well, but, you know, you're not supposed to put unscripted stuff in there. And I was like, shit. I remember the rules. And then Kaya was like, you know, and then she was like, beeps at the top. And I was like, God. it. It's a good one. I might have been wrong, you know. I definitely overthought it. Veep is probably. It's just so, it's so consistently good. It's so funny. Julia Louis Dreyfus is just like basically the, maybe the best like TV, at least comedic actress of all time.

I don't even know if you have to put the qualifiers on it. Yeah. And like I would, I mean, I also have like personal connection to it. Like as I was telling Chris on the way over here, I started watching it when I was in college and political science major. And so like, I was. I just, like, found all of the jokes, like, really prescient and funny. And I think also the fact that towards the end, it became less of, like, a satirical, like, oh, my God, this is how government could act. It became more of, like, this is how our fucking government's acting. And this is, like, real life. And it became, don't you wish this was how our government.

Well, weirdly, can I say weirdly that to me, and it's through no fault of their own, right? They're doing amazing work and it's incredibly hilarious. but the Trump thing killed it for me a little bit. Sadly. I think that one of the most amazing things about V to me is that it's two different shows distinctly. There's the Ionucci version from the first few seasons. And then there's the David Mandel version. And the fact that both were Emmy Award winning and amazing.

And that they were essentially, if you really look at a totally different shows, I think the Inucci show, which was this very, very arch satirical vision of just power and waste basically would have had more to say about the Trump era than the second version of Veep that actually coincided with it, which just became a savage, savage joke machine. Yeah. I mean, it was just a bunch of... It just a bunch of, like, aging in a good way, graying, maturing, comedy writers.

Did he have measles? Yeah, he had measles because he refused to get vaccinated. That's right. A worthy number one. And so that's it. We've done it. Yeah. We've done it.

we should say to the people who have made it to the end, the other rule for this, it wasn't just that we weren't to talk about Sam's shows. Sam asked us not to talk about the current season of Mr. Robot, either with him. This is true. Despite people in the watch Facebook group. It is now becoming a little bit annoying.

Agitating for you. Saying, what are you even doing, wasting your time talking about these other shows? And we say, we don't listen to our fans. I'll tweet out like, really,

I really had a great time recording this NBA podcast. And I get responses of like, When are you talking about robot? Do you have any message to the watch fans who wish... I agree with you all watch fans. They're ridiculous. Will you come on and do an in review with us? I don't...

I'll tell you, I don't... Or are you just going to go to the Bahamas and never... Yeah, well, no, that is true. Not the Bahamas, but somewhere equally as nice. But I will say, I don't think I want to. I think when you do it, when you wrap up a series like this and you start giving away all the answers, I would rather let that speak for itself.

I think to try and... like, you know, explain it and connect the dots. Yeah, it's not like David Lynch is on podcasts, right? Exactly. That is true. Has he ever been on your podcast? He has definitely not. No, I talked to you about this one.

I hosted a screening with him and Kyle McLaughlin and Laura Dern, and he just wouldn't play. I mean, he just doesn't do it. You just, I finally, I was reduced to asking him questions like, you know, working with these people you've known for 30 years and bring everyone back and the emotion in it. I was mentioning the people who he'd worked closely with who died just after production.

and I was trying to get him to just at least sum up the emotional piece of it and he just looked at me and he looked at the audience and he just said solid gold that's the way you do it

that's the way you do it that's you got to start doing stuff like that solid gold let me just say this because I do have one honorable mention which I don't think any of us talked about I thought it was going to be

might be on your list I think better things is like a hidden gem out there do you guys watch it? That's high on people's list I have not really committed to it. Are there any other

articles? I've watched better things. Yeah, I like it. It's not, it wasn't like up in the... I think it's so underrated. I think it's such a great show. My wife loves that show.

What was some other honorable mentions? A Veep should have been on my list probably. VEP is definitely. Rectify. I never saw Rectify. You're the worst. The young Pope. Honorable Woman, remember that?

We loved honorable woman. For sure, yeah. Also, in terms of like the happy endings comedy slot, first few seasons of New Girl were exceptionally good comedy. Yeah, I would have put little drummer girl up pretty high in my. So good show. And I probably would have, if it had started in 2010, I think, like, eastbound and down would have been, like, top.

So, we were so ready to me. So dark. I just haven't seen the second season, but I was ready to consider that. Yeah. You turned us and our podcast listeners on to dark. Is the second season good? Did you guys see it? I did.

I mean, I thought there's one episode in the second season. That's the best episode they ever did. Wow. But there's also a lot of, like... We didn't put any foreign... This is an American podcast. Last Panthers would be pretty high for me. like there's a bunch of crime stuff from overseas

well I guess I'm black mare I guess can say Sam it's always a pleasure to do these This is fun Thanks man Thanks guys For Sam Esmill Kaya McMullen Andy Grimwald

We'll see you next decade