The Watch - The Top Ten TV Shows of 2022

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

Chris and Andy are joined by Sam Esmail to talk about their top ten favorite TV shows in 2022. They first talk about the state of television and how the medium is evolving (1:00), before talking about shows like ‘Atlanta,’ ‘Reservation Dogs,’ ‘House of the Dragon,’ ‘The Bear,’ and many more (22:52). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sam Esmail Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. I'm joined as always, but for the first time in years. in the studio by Andy Greenwald. Andy, hello. Hello, this is interesting. You sound already like you're on NPR.

I feel very odd. You've got to get close. I'm not, I don't know how to interact with a microphone. I'll teach you. The third voice is a man who's been in the studio more than Andy has. It's the big pictures,

Sam S.M. Oh my God. I'm so flattered. Yes, the big picture. The hierarchy is set. Welcome back. I'm very glad that Sean and Amanda let you out on loan to us.

It's really a... Was it the transfer window? And this is, it's a transfer portal. And this is our annual best of the year TV episode. But it's really our annual, just checking. Just checking. Just hanging out. Just friends.

Three guys. Sam's here. We're in the studio together. Sam is awesome to see you. It's awesome to be here. I don't think we've seen each other. I haven't seen you since the last time we did this. 2019.

In person. Pre-pendemic. Well, it's lovely to see both of you in person. We've changed. We've done this every year for the last. How many years? Was your first year 16 that we did this? Didn't we talk about this last year?

Because it was like the fifth anniversary. This is number six, guys. Or seven? It blurs. In some ways, I think the fourth or fifth one is still going. I have a kid now. That is true. That didn't happen.

And what I understand, that's mellowed you considerably. Yes. It's definitely taken out of your time listening to podcasts. I will say this, though. Having a kid didn't change my TV. viewing habits. Okay. I really,

did we talk about this last year? I feel like we did a little bit. That is an extremely dope thing to say to Andy. Well, because, go on. Here's the thing. Like, you know,

let me just take a drink. You talked a lot about Bluey, right? Yeah. So I'll do it again. I tried showing it to my daughter. I think she's too young. I think she's too young,

Sam. Yeah. Well, she's a year and a half. I don't know. When are you supposed to start? I don't think she's interested in TV. She's not really interested in screens, period. After two,

I would revisit. Okay. All right. Do you want to come back on then? And then I'll come back on. Maybe Bluie will make my top ten. Is Bluie and your top ten? Do you want to start here?

Yeah. Well, just so everybody knows, the way we do this is we usually have a state of the union conversation, both about Sam's feelings about television and also this podcast. And his feelings about us. And then we do our top tens where we start at 10. We go up to one. Kaya is also participating. We'll just kind of throw in.

And if somebody says a show and someone else has it on their list, they'll be like, well, I have that on my list higher or whatever. and we'll address it later in the show. For what it's worth, Sam, you bring up an important point to me. Yes, I have said on this podcast, and I believe that Bluey is the best thing I've seen on television this year. I decided not to put it on my list. Did you say that in the episode that I wasn't on?

I said a lot of things on that episode that I hope you never, ever listened to. But Bluey is not on my list, and here's why. Is it the best thing that I saw this year? Yes. But would it kind of be bullshit to be on my list, since we don't really cover animated shows or children's shows? Yes. And I feel like Chris and I are veterans of, like, we worked at Spin Magazine when the number one album of the year was your hard drive.

Oh, yeah. Because Napster was in. And I was like, all right. I'm just kind of over the gimmicks. And what honestly inspired me to take it off of my list and just talk about shows we actually talk about was seeing other critics put the January 6th hearings on their top TV of the year. Which I loved. Oh, you thought that was gimmicky. Yes. Come on.

It was riveting TV. I'm sure it was. How much January 6 hearings did you watch? You're right. I mean, look, yes, I was a little busy to be just sitting there and watching it, but I watched every time a clip drop. How much did your daughter watch it? And what was her takeaway?

No, I keep her out of that stuff. She's a big Lin-Cheney fan. No, my point isn't that it's not riveting TV. If you're talking about TV as a medium, but we're here to talk about shows that we talk about. I do want to ask him what he thinks of the cinematography on Carrie Lake's interview one-shots, where she's got, like, that diffusion going. It's the best thing we saw on TV this year was Bryce Harper's Home Run in the National

championship series. That is not on my list. You know I'm not a Phillies fan. I do, but I'm a Mets fan. That's why I brought that out. By the way, I texted you about that zero response, classic Phyllisian. Was it a text or did you send it on signal? That to me is text. I get signals. They don't come up as alert. So like weeks later, I do sometimes see an entry. And I'm like, oh, Sam Romy. And then it disappears for security. Because God forbid anyone know that you're watching I don't want, yeah, I definitely do not want anyone to know that I congratulated you on the Bryce Harper-Humberman. But I do congratulate you guys on. I did. What other nice? things.

I thought that was great. Say them on the record now. Yeah, before they turn into cyber dust. I don't want to say nice things. People did not show up

for us to say nice things. So do you want to start with the state of the watch? I let's talk about it. Because, yeah. Okay, I want to talk about this

quote that I read at the New Yorker in Kukang. I hope I'm saying your name right. She's a... TV critic. She's a great TV critic.

By the way, she should on Mr. Robot, but I still think she's a great TV critic. Not that you are keeping a fun. No, I do. Yes. No,

I remember. remember I've read every single one of your reviews about Mr. Robot. It's fine in two. I get it. But she's a great, great, great TV critic. And she posted her top 10, which for the most part, I think I love everything she had on there. But she said something in the sort of, what is it called? The little paragraph before the, is that called something? The introduction. No, it's not even that. It's like under the headline. Oh, blurb. Blurb. The blurb. Yeah. She wrote, the most notable series of the year reinforced a maximum, the TV is a writer's Oh, okay. This is going to be contentious for Sam. I got angry.

Yeah. Because TV is not a writer's movie. Half of you got angry. Well, no, I am a writer. Look, and I think writers are filmmakers. But that's what that, and that's sort of my point, TV is a filmmaker's medium. You want to know why?

Because you're fucking watching it. It is a visual medium. It is not something you read. Is writing a part of TV? Absolutely. But so is many other aspects to making a television show. And so for me, it angered me. This is something that I want to bring up with you two.

Yeah. Because I've been hearing, and we're going to talk about some of the shows in where you, where this came up. I've been hearing a lot about how TV is just, you know, the stories you want to see. You know, your people. While we're holding laundry. Yeah. While you're, I mean, you talked about this. It's like you, and you said, is it basic of me to say that I just enjoy my stories every week?

Yes. It is. That was his reference to one show. I was joking a little. Yeah. You were not joking because some of the shows that I think you guys are admiring. And some of the shows that you didn't like, which is on my list that we'll get to, break that format. And it puzzles me in a way because I think movies, and, you know, I think Sean talked about this on the big picture.

I don't think movies are great this year. Is that a podcast? Oh, my God. Yeah. Let me tell you something. Is it a podcast? It is, it is a great. It's the podcast.

It is the podcast. But I don't think movies are doing well. Like, I don't know. As an industry or an art form. As an art form. I don't think there were any films this year in the past couple of years where I got really excited in the way that I feel about TV. TV, like, and I think you guys have said this. Even tar? I love Tar.

I'm still levitating from Tar. But, I mean, how many other movies can you say you thought about like that? None. A film critic and you saw like 50 movies this year, you'd probably be like, tar is great, but like, blah, blah. Right. You're hitting on something that I really wanted to kind of like get into, which is, essentially, like, my big question for us getting into this podcast was, was TV too good to do an

episode like this about this year? It really is great. It was hard. And I think it was hard for you too, too. I would say this is the first time we've ever done this were my 10 through 20. I would put up against my 1 through 10. Absolutely. If you told me I couldn't pick my top 10, I would be like, that's fine. And weirdly, I feel more calm and confident about this list than I have in the last few years because what are you going to do? Like, there's things that aren't on my list. I agree. They're amazing. And my three to seven, I was going to cheat and say that's just all tied for number three. Because I honestly, I could juggle those and I can't, I can't decide. I've got a top five tier or the top five or the top five for me. It's astounding. I cannot say that about

movies. So to go back to my earlier point, TV is this great because it's not just a writer's medium. It is a filmmaker's medium. And writers are filmmakers just as much as editors are and cinematographers and directors and costume designers. And the reason why we've had this renaissance in TV is because none of that stuff is taken for granted. That it's not just about filming the script straightforward, and it's just all about the writing, and that's it. It is also because TV has kind of innovated in this really interesting way

in expanding on long-form storytelling. I guess that's what we call it, long-form storytelling. I don't actually episodic storytelling. That's really interesting. And to then regress and to say, let's go back to the old days when we can just throw on an episode of whatever. And it doesn't matter if you saw the last episode or the next episode, just because you have your favorite characters saying their favorite punchlines.

I agree. It's ridiculous. Why the fuck would we? Sorry, TV was not great back then. It really wasn't. I agree with you. But I think it's a little bit of a straw man or straw two men. Why is that?

Because I don't think any of us are advocating for a return to the TG. Well, I'm going to bring up a show. Well, here's the thing. There was a reaction to a great season television this year that when we get to it, I don't know if we should get to it now, but when we get to it, for whatever reason, the TV critic, including YouTube, did not love it because it dared to break form. It dared to do something different.

And the biggest complaint I kept hearing was, why aren't they just doing the same thing? Oh, I know what the show that is. Yeah. Okay. Well, we should talk about Atlanta at some point. Exactly. But I think to go back to this idea that in print that it's a writer's medium, weirdly, I think it's almost a regression in a different way to say that. I think that critics, all critics, not singling out the critic from the New Yorker or we do this as well, we default to the autore theory often, right?

That there's, you can... Well, that's bullshit. You know I think that's bullshit. And I do too. Yeah, yeah. But that the idea that you could try to pin the creative process on one person and use that person as the fulcrum of your argument for. again something. That's a handy thing to have. You know this, and it is not your experience because you are the rare filmmaker in television who writes and directs, and there are more, you know, Mike White

we're going to talk about today, I'm sure, as well. Sure. But traditionally, and even through this era, the writer is often the showrunner, the head of the director. The writer is the one making the decision. The writer is the one with the final cut. So I think she may very well mean that. It's a writer's medium because the writer's the person, you know, Buck stops there as opposed to the writing is so much more important than the filmmaking. I hear you, but when that has been said in the past, it is because there is a sort of priority on what's written and to capture what is written and less of a priority on how it is being rendered on screen. And that's, that was where I sort of bristled. I just think that at this point, to my point earlier, I had like

51 shows on my long list here. I just don't think it's possible to make grand sweeping gestures about like, oh, it's a writer's meeting, it's a filmmaker. I agree. I think there are some shows where I'm like the filmmaking, the directing and the visual aspects of the show are transcending material

that is like okay or maybe a little undercooked. There are examples where great writing is possibly underserved by the direction but still transcends the fact that it's been underserved by its direction. Having them in concert is not. Yeah, and it's like And on this list, more often than not,

it's when the two come together and make a great final product. But no matter what, it's a visual medium. Sure, of course. It's always been a visual medium, even when they didn't prioritize the visuals. And by the way, when they didn't prioritize the visuals, it sucked. I think it sucked. Yeah, but like, I mean, like a lot of people will watch something like, I don't know, like too old to die young and be like,

this doesn't make any sense and the writing is bad, but the filmmaking is pretty awesome. I happen to love too old to die young because I love Nicholas Wenning Ruffin and I'll watch him film like people reading a phone book. What's his new? He has a new show. Copenhagen Cowboy. Oh, I can't wait. That's what you used to call me.

What happened? Maniac cop. He was going to do maniac cop at some point. Anyway, continue. My point was just more just like, I think that like at this point, there are so many different kinds of television that it seems to almost be subsuming

the movie industry that we know of as we grew up where there's small niche independent things like somebody somewhere, which I'm sure we'll get like honorable mentioned if not in somebody's top 10. There are giant goddamn blockbusters that are actually like really good. And then there is all this stuff in the middle that is like the succession white lotus tier of like talky dramas that we've all kind of gotten accustomed to being what we call prestige TV. I think also to your point, Sam, like I don't want people just coming up and saying their catchphrases like Pucci on that episode of The Simpsons. But I do think there's something that the very best TV shows do, even if they are limited.

or even if they are more framed like prestige filmmaking. Is that they teach you how to watch them? What's that? No, I'm saying like Station 11 was our number one last year. Great show. By the way, I didn't see that last year. And I can't put on my list this year, right? Because last year...

You can just say it was good. But it was amazing. So that was a limited series. It did a lot of interesting things visually, with chronologically with time. Totally. But it also, I thought, took very seriously the relationship between the characters,

between the characters and the audience and built significant emotional connection to them over the course of its run in a way that felt like the very best of TV to me but it was not you know okay here's what I'm referring to or here's my grud

like so back in the day it was all about characters right and less about this sort of I remember a network that was would welcome characters do you remember that network I think you both remember it and that was it

and there was no narratives you know there's no narrative through the point was that you could drop in any time and things would just repeat Yes. There was a formula. The characters behaved in the ways that you made me with slight little surprises here and there. And that was it. And that is bullshit. It's fucking bullshit. Sure. So, but when I hear you guys talk on the, I mean, and look, if you guys are not saying you were saying this, I mean, you said earlier you were just joking. It didn't sound like you were joking because I think it's not that I'm joking. I think you're misinterpreted. We said it recently. We said it about slow horses. About slow horses. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. No, it was earlier. It was early. Right. But we really double down on this, I think. And we, we said it.

would have driven you crazy. There must have been an extra episode of Big Pick that week while you missed it. But Slow Horses, in no world can be mistaken for a show that was on TV in the 90s. You know, it's production values, its performances, its direction, its style, it's propulsive, serialized storytelling. It's just not an old show. But there's something about the confidence with which it knows what it's doing, and it just settles you in and it does it. That feels, I feel more strongly about comfort level and shows knowing what they are and acclimating the audience to being a certain place than you do. I'm saying I haven't seen slow horses.

So let's put that slow horses aside. When I watch an episode of TV, and then I watch the next episode of that show, and then I watch the third or fourth episode, things better be fucking changing. And when they don't, when it's like, oh, you guys are just doing the same thing. Oh, sorry, Kai.

I'm banging. I'm banging on the table. It gives our listeners a sense of how serious you are about this, about how much you fucking... Is it stereo? Are they going to hear it on the left ear? Anyway, if I start to feel, oh, this is just repeating itself over and over, which is what classic TV is, that's when it starts to bug me. That's when I'm like, oh, this is not the TV that grew out of the sort of golden age of television in the last decade.

But guys, let me tell you something. That's where TV feels like it's headed. Back to zero-sad. That's what I'm working. I've been saying that for a couple of years now. And one of these years you're going to be right. How can you possibly make that declaration? I mean, every single thing that people are talking about,

every single thing that gets nominated for awards, it's all favoring long-form, like, serialized television. You think so? Yeah. I mean, again... White Lotus is the only thing anybody can talk about right now. It's a seven-hour movie. White-low is notwithstanding, but, like, I mean, Ted Lassow?

I mean, no offense, Sam, but, like, a lot happens in the second season of Ted Lasson. I mean, like... I haven't seen... Yeah, I haven't seen... I would say that Ted Lassow is very much... much a serialist. Is that

last one on your list? No. Did that even come out this year? I don't know. Yeah, but it's not. No. Okay.

Okay. Maybe I'm wrong. Yeah. I don't want to go through a laundry list of shows that I feel like are kind of going back to the repetitive,

like, you know, 90-style. We should record that pot and then bury it. We should. Like the $1 million-dollar Wutang album. That's right. That's where Sam really taught.

But I would say there's a show that's not on my list this year, but could be on my list every year or not. what we do in the shadows, which is a very funny show. But that has become, in many ways, what you're talking about, in that they make a season every year.

It's crazy. It's funny. It's surprising. And they do another one. But even that show does big crazy swings. Like, a character dies and a baby version of him crawls out of his stomach and is a baby for an entire season. I know.

But you know what I mean. It's not experimenting or sort of, it's not plowing. By the way, I'm going off what you're saying. I haven't watched what we're saying. You hate that show. I hate Ted Lasso. I do not. I do not watch either Ted Lasso or what we do in the shadows.

This is a gotcha pod. Well, because my perception of those shows are that they are kind of this situational comedies that stick to a premise and kind of rinse-repeat that premise over the season. Now, maybe if you're saying I'm wrong about that, Chris. I just haven't noticed it. I think that there's, I mean,

obviously there's a whole world of network television and then there's things like, I mean, to me, the whole value proposition of something like one of the Showtime shows like Ray Donovan is just to kind of be like... Yeah. You know... Well, I would throw Ray Donovan in that can.

So you would put... Because you're like, ultimately nothing changes on Raydott. Exactly. Characters may come and go. And that is the point. The point is longevity. The point is,

let's go for as many seasons as possible. Is that not the point? I think that's pretty rare. I think that even a show like Ozark, which ended this year, and was, you know, pretty much a blockbuster when it came out and then as,

I would say, creatively faded, if not, like, you know, commercially, was still, like, Ozarks considered a, marathon runner at 40 episodes. That's crazy to consider like Better Call Saul, all these shows that have wrapped up after four or five seasons.

But look at Ray Donovan. Yeah, but showtime's almost an outlier now. I mean, yeah, I guess like Yellowstone, there's some examples of shows that are like, let's just keep trucking, but... By the way, when Ted Lassau was a hit, what was like kind of like the thing about Ted Lassa? It was sweet. This is the show we need.

Yeah, well, because it was sweet. I mean, comedies are comedies. And the thing is TV, there's always going to be Chip and Joanna rehabbing houses and there's always going to be, you know, lowest common denominator soaps or sitcoms and things. But I think what I'd like to drill down on with this point that you're making is maybe you, one thing that we've said repeatedly on and off air about something like Succession, which is not relevant for, I mean, not eligible.

It didn't come out this year. Yeah, yeah. I think that it's interesting to me, maybe along the lines that you're saying. Well, that's when this, this is when I first started bringing this point out. Right. So Succession, I do think wins. I think it's the best show on TV that come, you know, ongoing, non-liminary. but I also think it's interesting that it wins the best drama Emmy year after year now because I do think compared to a lot of its competition, it feels like TV.

Right. I think the writing is God level. I think the performances are incredible. I think it takes risks and changes constantly. But there is an element of it that is Sunday night, time to settle in with the stories of the Roy family. I mean, that is the show. That's the show. And that's what always.

And I like that. Yeah, I celebrate that. Right. And that's what I hate about. That type of. The new form of TV. The preeminent of those shows. Exactly.

Exactly. And when we get to Atlanta season three, that's where maybe this came. Okay. This whole sort of argument came out. I think that we're, yeah, I was going to say just my last question before we get into the list, because now we've gotten to the part where we start naming all these shows and it's like, okay, we're ready to start talking about shows. I was just going to ask for you, Sam.

Yes. Because we just did the big picture and we talked a bunch about site and sound, the site and sound list. What was your criteria for your top 10 this year? Did you have a guiding principle for like what is and isn't in this list? Oh my God. Well, it's so hard because this year, as we all just said, has been such a great year for TV. So it was hard to, well, I think the guiding principle is, is it showing me something I haven't seen before? Okay.

Either emotionally, visually, intellectually, yes, that would be the guiding principle. Okay. So you're looking for innovation in some way? Innovation. And again, that doesn't mean it's using drone cameras. Yeah, right. Is it even showing me an extra dimension of a... Did you just take a little drive-by on ambulance there? Oh, my God.

Okay. Should we do the ambulance? Should we all answer that? What I was looking for for the year in TV was the show that really captured the day-to-day, almost mundity of a sex worker and homemaker in Belgium in the 70s. Have you seen that movie, by the way? John Dealman. Yeah. That's how you say it? I don't dare to even attempt to say it.

That's what I would. Did you see, Chris? I have seen that. Do you like that movie? Yeah. It's pretty cool. Is it better than Godfather, too, Chris? It's not kidding.

You're on the spot. All right. Okay, that was my last prep question. Kaya, do you think we've, have we hit all the pillars of popular culture right now? Yeah, just about everyone. Okay. And Kaya will be joining us. Yeah.

I'll be chiming in here. We'll do our top tens in next week's episode of The Watch. Well, we've touched on January 6th. We've touched on John Dealman. I think we were done. All the hot button issues. All right. So we're going to start at 10.

All right. Sam's are guest of honor, so you can go first. You've never, you guys, I don't think talked about this show. Okay. The staircase. No. Did you even watch the show? I watched the first two ups and you didn't like it.

It wasn't for me, but I, I know a lot of people who think it was amazing. Let me just say, I did start out. I was like, oh, you know, I loved the filmmaking. And I had seen the dokey series, which is phenomenal. And I remember feeling like, I don't know why I'm just seeing a narrative version of an already great docuseries. But man, the way it grows and ends, it's so moving and kind of gets, it goes past where the do you guys see the docuseries? Yeah, I did, yeah. No. I only watch Belgian films. Sorry. It goes past where the docket series is and it's the fucking performances are just out of this

world. And probably one of the best true crime adaptations I've seen because it wasn't necessarily a mystery box. I wasn't, like, I wasn't waiting for the last episode to see if this person did it or not or what's the truth. And it kind of ends on this, like, really eerie and thought-provoking note that I won't give away. But, and then just the filmmaking outside, you know, the performances and the writing were great, but the filmmaking just was just on another level, especially for, you know, a true crime adaptation. And who directed was, uh...

Antonio Campus. All right. So that was directed by Antonio Campus. Great. Great, great show. That's my number 10. Okay. That's not on my list.

Totally ignorant of it. Okay. You never even heard of it. No, I mean, I've heard of it. But you didn't care. I didn't care. Okay. All right, Andy, number 10.

Number 10 is the most recent addition to the list. It's something we have not talked about on the podcast yet. It's something I haven't even finished. Here we go. And it could be higher in a re-rank. Or when I finish it. Or it could fall off completely, but I doubt it. Okay.

And Sam, I think you should check it out too. It's a series on Amazon Prime Video. Small little startup, hoping for the best for them, called Rings of Power. No, no, no, no, called The English. Oh, Emmy, Emmy and I saw the first episode and loved it. Yeah.

I haven't gone past that yet. I think Emmy went ahead of me, and that's what happened. Is she here? Can we dial her in? I know, we should dial her in. Yeah, it's good. It's Hugo Blick, who made Honorable Woman. Who made Honorable Woman,

maybe our favorite miniseries of the last decade. I have watched two. episodes. I think it's great. So we'll talk about this in more detail in weeks to come as we get more into it, but it is a sumptuous Western filmmaking at its finest, written and directed by a really

strong, he's a very strongly opinionated filmmaker, I would say, like his point of view. His decisions are very clear. It's Emily Blunt and an actor named Chesk Spencer, who was not familiar with prior to this, and then sprinkled with a really amazing assortment of just like Top Flight UK talent, like Kieran Heinz and Toby Jones and Stephen

Ray, this to your, I feel like this is the best thing to tee off a podcast where maybe you'll get along with me because this show just surprised me. Just, it's, it's the American West through a European lens with weird humor, weird sentimentality. Yeah.

The tone is it really interesting? I can't quite define what it is. Sometimes I'm like, am I watching like repo ban or something? You know what I mean? It's like very punk in places. And it's like, no, this is this is dances of wolves or something. I just, I love seeing something that is made by a singular filmmaker that is just so discomforting and surprising and then suddenly moving.

And so I'm just, where are you with it? I'm excited. You're not done with it. No, I'm four episodes out of six. So I feel confident that I love it. But it's just exciting. If you were just done that off the strength of one episode, that would have been Pete Creamwald. Oh, it would have been.

That would have been on brand. But only if it had been French. Like, guys, I didn't put Irma VEP on the list, but I kind of wanted to. Oh, I like that show. It was great. You know what? That's another show that I... God damn.

I know. This is the problem. It's such a good year for TV. Our honorable mentions will probably take another hour. My number 10's Atlanta. So we can do this. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You can't just say that. What? There were two seasons of... I know. And I said that I would like to see the entire season three and hopefully four to judge this effort into talent.

Well, we'll hold on a second because now you're going to fuck with my list a little bit. There are two seasons of Atlanta. Did you put them on separately? Yes. Because they're two seasons. They're two different.

I imagine you put three in yours. I did. Yeah. And should we talk about... Now, that peak S-Mil. I'll talk about four briefly, which is just to say... Now, wait, four is on my list. I thought we were doing the thing where we're not going to talk about...

Okay, then we can talk about Atlanta when we get to Atlanta. It's on my list, too. It's on my list, too. We'll wait. We'll wait to talk about it. That's season four, Andy, to be clear, right? No, the totality of it. I didn't know we were doing...

Well, it's two different seasons of TV. Kaya didn't give us the rules. Kaya. God damn it, Kaya. This is why Horlebex I got his number I'm so sorry That's totally on me

Okay So my number 10 will be discussed later Yeah we'll get into it Number 9 to Sam Well Kyia Oh Kai what's your 10 My 10 was the final season Of search party

Which I don't know if anybody I enjoyed that Yeah I thought it was really fun It was really weird They basically just took it in like A zombie apocalypse direction which was Unexpected

But like I feel like they made it work And they kept the core cast of characters very strong. And yeah, I thought it was a good time. I thought they ended that show well. Is that still like the murder? Like, there's a murder, right? Yeah, so it starts off.

The first season is like a murder mystery, sort of. And then like it gets just kind of progressively weirder. Does it, do they solve the mystery or whatever by the end? Like, does it feel built up to a senior? Yeah, but it's like basically by the end of the first season, their murder mystery is not like the core, like, plot driver anyway. more. And it's kind of just like these four really dumb millennials.

Okay. Getting into hijinks. All right. Should I go? You should go number nine for you. Yeah. Number nine, again, the show not discussed on this podcast. That you know of.

Yeah. Despite, exactly. There may have been an extra special episode of Big Picture that week. But despite the fact that it's one of the biggest shows of the year, streaming hours-wise, I could hit 2 billion. Sam is a classic populist, by the way. Only things that do really well at the box office. That's all I do.

I'm a popular guy. This show's Dahmer. Wow. It's an excellent television show. Wow. Directed by the great Carl Franklin. El least he directed the first couple of. Are you guys fans of Carl Frank?

I'm a huge fan. I did not know Carl Franklin touched us. Carl Franklin's been on the watch to talk about Zodiac, to talk about Mindhunter with me. I mean, he's such an excellent director. Did you watch Stummer? I watched the first two episodes. Because I know Andy's not going to get anywhere near that. This was honestly, it was one of those like, I started it with my wife.

We were going to watch it. Then we didn't. That we was like, oh, you want to watch? It just got lost. It's an excellent show. Evan Peters is great. I mean, out of this world, insanely talented. And the performance is just breathtaking.

And the show just takes these twists and turns. Again, another true crime story. But like, the way it folds in. it's not about the mystery clearly. You know it's him. So it's really more about the victims and the sort of the reaction and how Dahmer was able to get away with all of this.

But on top of that, it's just elevated by this beautiful filmmaking by Carl Franklin. Again, not just Carl Franklin. Other great filmmakers came in after him, but he set the tone in the first two episodes and I thought it's just an exquisite show. Are you this big of a true crime guy?

Not really. Top two slots. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no. The first two slots. The first two slots. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your first two slots. Yeah, but I'm not that big into true crime. You're right. And I don't know. Again, it's just, it's not, it wasn't about the fact that it was a true story. It was just the mechanics of the storytelling were so amazing. And again, I can't say enough. Were you drawn to it?

Evan Peters delivered one of the best performances? Were you drawn to it because of the pedigree of Franklin and Peters and all that? Or was it this thing is blowing up on Netflix? I guess I'll give it a shot. That's a good question I think I probably just gave it a shot Because I didn't see it when it first came out Okay

So it was like wow This is check it out A lot of people A lot of people are talking about But not a lot of people are talking about it Because you two didn't talk about it And it didn't see it I don't know why didn't you talk about it

There's a lot of TV But also I But this is one of the most popular shows On TV I think it might have fallen in the house Of the Dragon Zone for us A little bit But I'm not sure

But also I you know And you also wouldn't have watched it I'm not proud of this But you know I have a slight Ryan Murphy allergy And so I assumed it was more lurid than what you're describing. And then I'm reminding me that it's Evan Peters, whom I love and has earned our trust. And then Carl Franklin directing it, that's a different proposition.

So with so much stuff, there's certain boxes you tick them. I'm like, well, I don't, that's not where I'm going to allocate my time, which is not fair. But yeah, like true crime stuff, I don't have an interest in serial killer stuff. Mine Hunter aside, I'm not, or Zodiac aside, I'm not really a big fan of it. But there are those shows, and there were a lot in the first half of the year. that were the, and they were more about CEOs. Yeah, it was like the sort of ripped from the headlines

TV. The Wikipedia TV shows. But they were very straightforward. I mean, you called them Wikipedia shows for that reason, right? They were just kind of giving me the facts. A lot of them had very good performances that sometimes would imbue a little bit of humanity to like Elizabeth Holmes is or whatever, yeah. They were kind of delivered in this pragmatic way of

here's what happened. Here are the details. That is not in either the staircase or the domer. that is not the feeling that you have when you watch those shows. It's almost like you're watching a narrative, a fictional narrative, and it's really more about the storytelling than it is about just delivering you a set of facts. It's a good point, that one vestige of TV that should be long gone by now, but I think clearly still exists in my mind is just types or stereotypes of shows or genres. It's feeding this vein, so I don't need to engage with it.

We're kind of past that, right? Because even in, like, I think there are some shows that aren't really. really worth naming that we didn't love that did this Wikipedia thing. But for example, like the dropout, I thought, had amazing performances and a point of view. And like, that was a really interesting show. The soundtrack was amazing. Soundtrack was good. And like, Girl from Plainville.

They fucking took my wolf parade. I was saving that, man. Yeah, I try not to use songs. And then... You were saving it for your Dunkirk movie. Yes, exactly. How'd you... God damn it, Chris.

You're like in my head. But even like Girl from Plainville and obviously we're friends with Liz Hanna who made. it, but like... Also, brilliant performances. Incredibly performances and also like an emotional... Yeah. Intensity.

God, who played her boyfriend in that? He was so good. We can Google it. She's, uh, um, well, El Fanning was great, too. Jason Mamoa. On a break. Yeah. On a break from the DCU.

So, that was your nine. No, my nine. Andy Greenwald. Andy was your nine. So we're going to circle back to it. Oh, here we go. Well, we can circle back when you get to it. Okay.

My nine was reservation dogs. That was Colton Ryan. Colton Ryan. He played her boyfriend. So good. My number 90s Reservation Dogs, which I have a feeling

will be pretty high in 80's list so we can chat about it when it gets there. That's way high on my list. I haven't seen this season. It's very good.

Can I tell you something? I also haven't seen the second season of industry. I told you. There's just too much fucking TV. You're too busy

watching Dommer. I know. You're just like watching headline news. Like, what's the latest? I know. Moscow murders. Tell me what happens.

Just play them again and again. Just monopolized. Kaya. Number nine. Are they bringing that show back? Jan 7th? Just a quiet day on the hill.

They're running out of time. That'll be 2024. My number nine was the second season of Hacks, which is very brilliant. Another show I didn't watch. You should check it out. Talk about it. It's an honorable mention. God damn it.

Gene Smart, National Treasure. I feel like there was a lot of talk at the end of the first season of like, oh, well, can they do this again? Yeah. Like, we're going to get tired. And I do think, too, it is at risk of Sam, what you were saying, of like getting repetitive and just falling back on the same tropes. But it was really fun.

They took it on the road. and kind of just like expanded the story and yeah, had a good time. Better than the first season? Same? I would say same. Okay. I thought, I think you're right, Kyah. I think it was like one of those things where you were like,

it kind of defies belief that they can pull. I'm sure that Anna I, minor and like Gene Smart chatting with each other would be like incredibly pleasant for the rest of it. But I do feel like they pushed the boundaries a little bit, like the whole idea of the lawsuit and everything was really good. Well, they push it. I mean, I think that's an example of a show

that we've used some of the language. which you're talking about Sam before, where I'm like, this could just run forever in Las Vegas. Great actors, great characters, great points of view, great comedy,

but the people making it don't want to settle. They want to make a contemporary show until they take it on the road. They push the conflict. By the way, that was even done back, and I know for some reason

we keep referencing the 90s as this terrible year for TV, which for the most part, I think it was. That was our time. That was our time. But Seinfeld, classically,

did not do the repetition thing. If you recall, I mean, they went to some fucking weird places every season. Very weird places. And when that was not being done back then. So, I mean, probably the only reason why I love that show. But I'm so angry I didn't see this.

There's so many second seasons of shows that I, that were on my list last year. This is kind of an exciting part of the list because I think our bottom fives are like where it's like, oh yeah, I haven't seen that. Oh, yeah, I got to go watch that. Can I just say something? Part of the reason I'm not watching the second seasons, and I'm curious about this, is it because you want to watch the new thing?

I mean, is it almost, is it almost like TV should be leaning more into limited or one to two, three, or do you think that's already happening? I think that there was a glut of shows in the spring for Emmys that made it so that the entire year got knocked out of whack. You know what I mean? I think even disbursement of TV over the course of the year would have been like a little bit could anybody have watched 50 television shows this year?

Probably not. The spring was nuts. But the spring made everything tweaked out. Hacks was an example of that for us. We did get to cover it. We did finish it in time and had the creative team on the pot again. But it shouldn't have been there. It was too crowded.

It was there for Emmys, which made sense. It worked for them. But it was not good for the consumer. Okay, so Kaya's 9 is Hacks. What's my... Did you do 9? I did 9 because I'm Reservation Dogs as my 9. So now we're on Sam's 8.

Sam's 8. Okay. Andy Greenwald's favorite show. I'm sure it's high on your list, so we'll wait to talk about House of the Dragon. I love it. Is it like number two? It's actually the full top five. Is this a bit or is H-O-G?

No. How dare you, Sam? How do you? How do you? Come on. We've got to get into it. Do it. Because this is, this goes back.

I turn the mics on. Here we go. Let's record this part. So you guys bitched and moaned. No, I didn't. Both of you. No. I hosted an entire show that was like, let me finish.

Let me be the same eatery. Okay. Let me, I'll take this. You guys bitched and moaned. Could you say it one more time? the kids in the back. Along with a lot of other people in the TV community. People were talking.

These time jumps. What the fuck? And they're swapping out actors. You make it sound like we didn't understand it. No, that's not what we said. Tell me what you said. Tell me what you said. This show did something different. They could have just stuck people. It did something terrible.

It was bad. Why is that terrible? Why is that terrible? Why is that? That to me, drew. me in and made it interesting where I didn't want to spend like fuck like the part of the problem with Game of Thrones which I again I love that show you know it was on it was always on my top time it did take a while for people to walk from place to place it took a little bit it was long Sam's a busy guy and and you know he's got a kid I want my stories every weekend you know what I mean um I appreciated the house of driver's like we're not fucking around this week we're

going to kill three people in childbirth that weren't born last episode. You were like, this is more efficient way to get to my savagery on a regular schedule. I mean, look, it's not, I didn't love the show because of the time jumps. I think that was a, too much. And also, particularly with filmmaking, I'm curious about, and not to disparate anyone's work on it. I know, and here's the whole thing about the fucking, it's too dark and look. How did it look in your home theaters? It looked amazing.

Thank you for asking. Fix your fucking TVs before bitching about the darking about the dark. just for fucking kingsling. I mean, I was so infuriated. It was a weird choice to shoot night for night. Just like, let just have it be. Just darkness. The show was, to me, beautiful to look at.

But putting aside the filmmaking, I was really taken by, again, the performances, the story. I didn't know where it was going half the time. It surprised me. And for a Game of Thrones show, to surprise me, especially on a prequel, I guess. Did you not see that everybody wanted the throne?

Was that like... Wait, wait, do you think that that... To me, that was not the driving force of that season. From what I understand, the driving force was that the battlefield is now the womb. Well, look, I don't watch the HBO after whatever they can. I've just gotten that vibe. I've been told that. I just watched the show, and I just love the dynamic and relationships between...

Now I'm forgetting that... Well, it's also hard to pin down the relationship because it's often your niece and your wife. Was it A-Gon 2 or A-Gon 4? Yeah, right. I don't know, but I was taken on a ride. It was one of those shows where, and we'll get to this one, we get to another HBO show, where every Sunday night, friends came over,

we watched it, and we wanted to know what happened next. And it changed every week. And by the way, it would time jump and unexpectedly. And I thought that was interesting. I thought that was cool. I thought I picked up a lot of momentum and stability in the second half of the season. You talked about this, episode five should be episode one. I didn't listen to these.

By the way, what I'm excited about. Like, why? Why, Chris? By the way, let's talk about something else here. Can I turn the mics off? No, I want to talk about this. Because when we talk about TV criticism or just criticism in general, and as you know, I'm actually envious of you too. I wanted to be a critic.

We don't have home theaters, so it worked out. But let me just say this. There is, and I spoke about this on the big picture. So there is a full, like, there's a weird. Sorry. I kind of think there's an oddness that when, you're talking about a show that you don't like that you start giving

filmmaking notes. Me? Well, you gave a note, hey, this season should have started that episode five. I think I was just saying, like, if you go back and you look at the whole season of the show, could that have been a montage? Could that have been like a quick voiceover Kate Blanchett's like, in this time, this happens?

Yes, and if you were in the writer's room, you could have pitched that, Chris. But now the show has been made and you were on a podcast. And you're talking about the merits of the show that was made. Every week being like House of the Dragons is pretty entertaining. But I think the basis of our podcast is that is looking at the art that we're talking about through the lens of all of this choice. These are all choices. Yes.

Everything is a choice. Yes. And you can, I mean, again, this is maybe more philosophical than we want to get into. But I think for me, the role of criticism has always been, let's talk about the choices they made. You're a new critic. Not advise him on the choices that they should have made. It's six of one, half a dozen the other. The choice that you make is also the choice that you didn't make.

Right? So, like, us saying, like, why did you guys do it this way? It's the same thing of being like, why did they do it this way? I'm putting down my king. Okay. One thing that I'm excited about is for our loyal listeners to do a meme where it's like Vesaris at the beginning of the podcast and Vesars at the end of the podcast. Who's Vassaris at the end of the podcast? Who's Vassarisor?

I know, exactly. I feel like I'm going through the ringer. Number eight for Sam was House of the Dragon. Number eight for Andy is. another HBO show on Sunday nights the White Lotus Okay That is my number seven

It's not in my top ten What the fuck? What the fuck? Chris only likes shows that stick the landing And we're recording this before the finale Fuck That's not true I love the White Lotus

It's in my second ten This is crazy This is the second time that this has happened With White Lotus in Sam Where he gets fucking mad I don't have White Lotus in my top ten Let's talk about it now Well wait a minute

Is it on your list? Kaih? It's my number two Yes That's what I'm saying That's why Kaya is on these top tens. I think we should wait, right? Yeah, let's wait. Let's wait.

We can wait. All right. So number... Because we're going to talk a lot about it. It's amazing. By the way, can I just say, and I said this up front, from here to three, these are all tied to me. Just FYI. Eight was White Lotus?

Yep. Eight for me is Euphoria. What about eight over? Four. Oh, yeah. Euphoria? Yeah. Four.

So we'll wait. By the way, euphoria. I love the first season, too. And everyone started hopping on the bandwagon in the second season. I just want to say, Can I tell you where I halved on the bandwagon? The in-between season specials. Those were great.

Those were awesome. Those were great. Kaya. My number eight was Andor, which I imagine will be much higher. Might get mentioned. Not familiar here later. But it is the first time I've put a Star Wars show on my list. That's right.

Hearts and Mines. We got them. This is how a shape back got. Wait a minute. Where do we go? So now it's... So seven was White Lotus, which is Kaya's number two. This is getting complicated.

I think we'll just keep spinning. Andor is my number six. Okay. It's higher up on my list. So we'll wait. We'll wait. All right. So Sam,

yours number seven is... White Lowe's season two. Which we will discuss in a little bit when it comes higher up in Caius. So you're number seven, Andy? We own the city. Okay. That's very high on my list.

Okay. We can wait. We can keep spinning. It's been the wealthy. Number seven for me is slow horses. Is that on your last season? Specifically, I guess. But the totality of the achievement

of putting two seasons up in one year. It's a strong honorable mention for me. We've talked about it recently. Yeah, we just talked about it recently. I would just say that I think I took a step back because I read the books that Silverers is based on. I won't belabor it. But it's essentially about what if there were a group of loser spies who were put up in a house, like a house above a Chinese restaurant in London and were made to do like Penny Annie work for the MI5.

And then one day like a huge case comes across their transom for some reason. And it's Gary Oldman, right? And I kind of take it for granted the fact that I think that this Gary Oldman performance is like, not only incredible, but the character of Jackson Lamb is probably like one of my favorite characters to be introduced on television in the last few years. But because I read the books, I was like, yeah, that's exactly what he's like in the books. This is amazing. So we've talked a lot about slow horses over the course of the year. I really like the second season. I think the first season is particularly special, but I highly recommend people to check out both. I don't know why I'm saying I highly recommend it. We've been doing that all year. That's fine.

Kyle, what's your number seven then? My number seven is Euphoria. Okay. Yeah. Which is my number four. And is not, is it on your list? It is. It's my number eight.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we'll wait until. We'll get until you get to number four. Okay. So Sam, what's your number six? Andor, which is high on someone else's list.

All of our lists. Yeah. So we'll wait. Yep. So Andy. Better call Saul. Better call Saul is my number four. Should we wait for you or should we do it?

We should talk about some TV shows eventually, right? Let's talk about it. Did you watch Better Calls All? I forget where you are with that. I did not. You didn't watch it at all? I watched, no, we talked about this. I watched the first few seasons,

and I've been told to catch up, so I'll catch up. I mean, you love time jumps. They do do time jumps. Don't they do it? I feel like you'd be comfortable. Only the beginning of the season, right? Well, I'm not spoiling.

Oh, oh, oh, wow. Well, that's a spoiler in now. No, it's mostly just the beginning of the season. Is it too low for you? We'll put it down here at six. Is that whatever? This is the series finale, right? Yeah.

This might be kind of a kind of, I was saying this might be recency bias. Like I do think that its consistency and its consistent excellence has not heard it in the eyes of posterity, but has definitely heard it on these lists every year. You know, I think that it's just, it's not flashy. It's just always good. And our conversations about it have often been just like this film, this is unparalleled filmmaking. Ray Sehorne's performance is unreal.

The attention to detail, the ability that they have to take advantage of the capital accrued from the first series to just, just explore what they want to explore with budget, with production values, with with the directional, and just the aesthetic choices they make, it's unbelievable. And then to you know, stick the landing, which is an overrated term, but to

actually... Did they stick the land? Yeah, I mean, I found it very moving the choices they made at the end. Like, really surprising, really beautiful. And I know we've talked, we've mentioned this every time we've talked about it, but I'm really struck by this will violate your code of criticism, Sam. But when Peter Gould came on the podcast with three

episodes to go, I think, four to go. We asked him about it, and I'm still struck by his smile. He's like, oh, you guys are in for a treat. We had a great time. I loved the looseness. It's like a reliever coming in and like just throwing 100 mile per hour gas without any stress in the playoffs. He was just, he's like, clearly this is what they wanted to do. They thought about it. They executed and they made their pitches. And I just, I loved it. I'm so jealous of you. Because if you ever do get a chance, I know that there's a lot going on and everything. But if you get a chance to go through this series in the way that you're about to, it's going to be so rewarding.

I was thinking about this recently because I think when Andy and I were talking about this show over the course of the year, we were like very, very, like, weighed down by its conclusion and what it was sort of like how it was executing. And it was obviously going to be ending this sort of

our understanding of the Breaking Bad story. And now when I take a step back and think about where the show began, I just cannot believe what they pulled off. Like, it is. fucking incredible what they did with that last season. So, yeah, it was a no-brainer. Better than Breaking Bad?

Different. Yeah, I don't believe that. I mean, I don't believe in that argument. You can't compare it, you're saying? Yeah. I mean, because it couldn't exist without it, not just because of the characters, but I think that the... I've actually heard you could watch it without...

Oh, you could. I just mean, they couldn't have made that show. I see. Not just because the characters are related, but, like, the confidence to do risky, groundbreaking things, like, essentially have two shows for the bulk of the run. There's an argument to me. I mean, you could say to somebody if they were like, I've watched the first couple of seasons.

Like where you are, it's about to turn into Breaking Bad, basically. Right. That's, yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay, so let's reset where we are here. So that was my number six, better call Saul. Okay. I think going to you, Chris.

Yeah, my number six is industry. Higher for me, but close enough that is it on anyone else's list? Kai, is it on your list? Yeah, it's my number five. Okay, so let's talk about industry now. And let me just reiterate, I have not seen it. That's the only reason why it's not on my list. I'm excited to see it.

got the pleasure to work with my holla this year on my film. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. She's brilliant and amazing. She's awesome. So sad I haven't seen it yet. I would just say that it's a testament to what my top five are, that industry is at six because I could make the argument that it should be three or four places

higher. I just thought this season was tremendous. Better than the first season. In some ways. In some ways. There's a certain... I love the first season comes on, it's so fresh and it's so riveting that there is like a kind of that first album newness to it.

This season, though, you can tell that they, first of all, like, the story that they tell over the course of the season is much more coherent and I think thematically brings all the satellites together. And then I just think they're able to up the ante every episode to the point where there were times where I feel like my blood pressure

was going out of control. I mean, we're in the zone. It's my number five. We're in the zone where we're talking about shows, all of which I have probably said aloud are my favorite shows. Certainly when I'm watching them. I'm like, this is my favorite experience. I'm very curious, Sam, what your reaction to it will be

because I think that for me, what elevated the season was the first season was masterful, but it was also so much about vibes and energy and not giving a fuck, and that was clear, but also it had kind of a rookie energy. And I really feel like, and not just because we know them and have had them on the pub, but I feel like Mickey and Conrad

went back to school a little bit and did some moves, took some moves from established serialized TV drama playbooks, use them in their own way and then built something grander. And I was really impressed by that. And I'm curious if when you see this, I'm wondering, will you be like, oh, they leveled up? Or will you be like, oh, they put themselves in a cage of narrative expectation?

I've heard too many good things. I'm excited. It's never going to be bad. I mean, that cast and the writing in the world, it's just dynamite. We love that show, obviously. Six industry for me. Kai, what's your six? My Six is the second season of a BBC show called Starstruck.

which is a really lovely, like, I think it's like 30 minutes an app of, like rom-com show. I never even heard of this show. It's good. It's on, I think they put it on HBO, right? Yeah, HBO Max, like a couple months after it comes on BBC, and it's led by Rose Matafeo, I think is, and she, I think she writes it, too. And she's just like, they have, like, two leads that are extremely charming. I actually think the first season was slightly better, but I didn't get to the first season until this year. and then they dropped the second season this year as well.

So I wanted to take this time to shout it out. Yeah. I'm going to check it out now. Star Trek. Yeah. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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10, Atlanta, 9 reservation dogs, 8, euphoria, 7 slow horses, 6, industry. Sam? Staircase at number 10. Dahmer, number 9, 8, House of the Dragon. 7, White Lotus, Season 2, 6, and 4. Okay, Andy? 10, the English, 9, Atlanta, 8, White Lotus, 7, we own the city,

6, better call Saul. And, Sam, what is your number 5? my number five is Atlanta season three is it time I think it's time is season four on your list yeah of course

okay of course of course it's one of the best shows on TV not that you would know that if you were reading any of the reviews this past year and I'm

this this the reaction to season three angered me more than anything else why because people were upset that it dared to do something different that oh my God, every other episode

didn't have the main characters in it and they were breaking form. How dare they? I mean, what the fuck? What is going on? And the weird thing is the criticisms of those episodes weren't really about those episodes.

It was about the fact that they even did it. It was the choice, just the choice was criticized, not even the quality of those episodes that I thought were really fascinating. really intriguing. And to me, when I finished that season,

holy shit, they fucking leveled up. They kept, they kept, that show, that show to me kept getting better and better. And it was sad because I know Donald Glover, I think he went on,

I think it was up to TCA's or something. And for season four, and he was, and he sort of kind of cheekily admitted that, it's okay, I know you guys didn't like season three. And it's, and that show got knocked down.

I mean, no one really talks about it. anymore, the buzz really went away. And for me, it was really sad to see because it's the same great show that we saw the first two seasons. I hate when that happens. I don't get it. Especially when a show

is as brave as it is. I'll never knock their show's courage. Season 3 didn't work for me. It was not because... It wasn't because the main characters weren't in it. Like, it was more... You think I would really be like... The show is called Atlanta, and it's

not in Atlanta. This is not acceptable. Look, it's the same thing that we just talked about this with the House of Dragon, the choice to time jump. Like, it's weirdly the mechanical parts about these. I can't believe he just compared House to Atlanta. No, I'm not comparing the two shows. Can I take on these? I'm comparing the idea that I would.

Just the proximity of those words together makes me uncomfortable, but go on. Look, these shallow takes of these shows. So you tell, but tell me, I want to hear it because that's what I kept hearing. It's the same thing that I kept hearing about that. And it didn't make it, it was like, wow, guys, this is not a bug. This is a feature. Right. This is great.

They're pushing the medium forward. That's to be celebrated. Yeah. I also don't think like, how do I put this? I don't think just because you do something new, it's good. I agree. I agree. Sometimes experiments can fail.

By the way, like one of the reasons why I admire Nicholas Winding Refing, which I know you do. It's because he falls flat on his fucking face sometimes. And he swings and misses all the time. You just didn't, you thought that Atlanta season you made. I thought it connected. But the discourse was not, weirdly for me, not about whether it connected.

It was about the idea of doing something like that in the first place. That's what I kept feeling. I think there's a lot of stuff in this. One, I do think the long delay, some of it COVID, some of it, other projects, contributed to the fall off in terms of the perception and reception of the show, regardless of how they came back.

But I do think that you're right that when they came back with the season, that absolutely challenged all expectations. Yeah. Contributed to it, and it didn't really recover from that, at least in the week-to-week conversation. I also think season three, as constructed,

was not well-served by the cultural apparatus that received it. Like, it needed to be seen in context, and needed to be understood as part of the larger project, I think, to see it. I think... Not for me. No, but I... Clearly, I don't agree.

Well, I'm just saying... Well, you have your own movie theater. Yeah, it probably was different. with Atmos. You'd hear all the references. Paperboy who's in those episodes. I couldn't see him on my faulty TV. You're pro-motion smoothing, right? Because I just keep it, I turn it on. Oh my God. I think it's called Cinema Mode now. Yeah, I was watching, I was watching Serpico the other day, and I put it on just because I was like, this is too rough. I don't like grain. I kind of want to, um, I, tell me why you didn't like, is it? Go ahead. Go ahead. I don't let you talk. I want to be clear also to frame the

conversation, one of the most incredible things about the show and one of its most important legacies is that they did not give a fuck. They made what they wanted to make always. They took no notes as far as I can see it and they never wavered from that. And the same, in that spirit is why I loved much of season four. And it's why I loved the finale so much that probably the finale alone put it back on my list. It was absolutely beautiful and moving in a celebration of that attitude in the best way. I think that the complicated fact of it maybe also touches on the relationship to TV that you have a

spiky, you know, you waver on. Yeah. Which is, it's just a, it's an, there's an intimacy to the medium. And I think that people do like to be comfortable with TV. I'm not saying they should be. No, I, I know. I know, and that's what sucks. And so, that's what's sad about this, is that

you want comfort. Well, you know, I, I didn't, fucking watch TikTok, you know, whatever. I didn't think, like, go, season three of Atlanta, I thought, had, had like a, bat at about 500, you know, which is, by the way, for baseball, amazing. Yeah.

Kind of like Bryce through the first two runs to playoffs. Well, you're just picking the episodes that made you feel all fuzzy inside with the characters. No, I think some didn't land. I think some of them took amazing swings at ideas. Let me ask you something. The episode where Van eats a human hand, I thought it was a mess.

Oh, I loved that. There were a couple of episodes where I was like, great, you guys think rich people are weird. You know, like, old man in the tree, whatever, like, season three. Like, I didn't think that, like, the actual, like, thesis of whatever the episode was, was that mind-blowing or that, like, provocative or that actually stimulating.

And the filmmaking is always going to be the top-notch. They have like some of the best filmmaking. And some of the best writing and the best performances. You guys have talked about this with Paperboy. I have. But he's in half the episodes. Here we go. Here we go.

Here we fucking go. Did everyone listen to that? But I didn't let me rephrase. Did everyone listen to that? It's not Paperboy. I got you. Message. I see.

Can you mute Sam? It's not only half the episodes of Paperboy. It's Brian Tyree Henry. I do. You think it's offensive. You have the best actor on television. That you cut them out half the season. Yeah, I think that's absurd.

It could be bold. Or anything could be bold, Sam. Listen, Andy, you just confirmed what... I said, because I'm an actor. Not because I miss my buddy, Alfred. Yeah. I'm talking about the resources you have and how you choose to use your... Also, it's not like season...

I don't feel like season four was like the family reunion and was nothing but ensemble, like, dromedies that had, like, wholesome message. season four was really fucking weird. They get lost in the mall. What is the point of that? And season four is on my list. I know.

I'm just saying that if you're saying like, oh, you guys couldn't hang with season three. You wanted the warm, fuzzy feelings of season four. I'm like, four was just as weird. No, I'm not. Wait, wait, wait. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you want familiarity.

That is where TV is bred. No, I want success. I want success. You just admitted that you wanted your favorite actor on the show back for all 10 episodes. Did you not just say that? I do. Whether you want to say, character or actor.

I say actor. I'm saying it is absurd to me. It's absurd that you're making this argument. That's what's absurd. Ask him what he thinks of the Eternals. The Eternals? Right. Tyreanry's good in that.

Just because they were bold enough to do things doesn't mean that they were the right artistic or aesthetic choices. I think that it's absurd to say, and I agree with you on that. And I think it's absurd to say season three is better than season two. There's just no qualitative role. I think in a lot of ways the point of season three was to be uncomfortable viewing. And in that sense, it was successful.

I wouldn't say the word uncomfortable. I would say it challenged you in a different way. Watch this fucking half-hour black mirror episode about reparations. How do you feel after watching this? What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? Nothing's wrong with it. It's just not as successful. It's just say it doesn't have Brian Tyree Henry in those episodes.

You know what? I'll be completely honest. The people who I'm not trying to get angry anybody, but the people who are in a lot of the weird one-off episodes do not have the charm and flare that the regular episodes of Atlanta do. Like with that regular ensemble, with the actors that we have spent time with learning who their characters are, the one-off episodes were fine. I disagree. Okay. And if that was the argument I kept hearing throughout the year, fair enough. But it was more of the argument that Andy made.

I paid my $5. I want my characters. I want to see them in funny little situations every week. Here's the reset. Yeah. Call me crazy. I want my shows to be good. I do. I want them to be good and entertaining.

What's your number five? Also, Atlanta's on my list. Yeah, I know. So is my. Well, you guys cheated. What season of Atlanta is? Four! It's not a cheat. Okay. It wasn't cheat. You guys did cheat. But you are now admitting that it's season four that you're placed in.

If season three was the only season that aired this year, it would not be on my top ten. Well, I'm saying, I put it on considering them both. Because for a minute, I was like, if I'm considering both as it's offering for this year. Yes. Well, if it was just four, would it be higher on your list? That's a good question, one that I didn't consider. Probably not, just because the other eight are amazing also. Okay, so.

It would have been a more confident placement. Chris is trying to move this a lot. Where did we go? Where do we land? That was number five for Sam was Atlanta season four. It was weird that Sam hates Brian Tyree Henry. That's his takeaway from this. Number five for you is it behind the scenes from the Eternal's football scene?

Yeah. Wait, can that-Ry and Tyree Henry crying in Hiroshima? Can I say something before the mics turned on. By Tyree Henry, watching the Jan 6th year. Yeah. Before the mics turned on, I said this is going to get contentious. Yes. That's...

Every year, whether it's succession, whether it's something, you come in and you're like, you guys... But you guys know I love you despite all of this, right? It's nice of you to say that while we're recording. Yeah. You don't think I love you, right? Yeah, I do. Okay. Because it might get a little uglier from here on that.

And that's what we're here for. That's the hallmark of the watch. Number is making people uncomfortable. And Chris now is like pacing us up. I'm just hosting. I'm just hosting. I can see Kai out of my peripheral vision. She's just like, what hour marker? I got to get back on the 10.

Andy, what's your number five? Industry. Which we discussed. Should we just do it again? My number five, which I am, I cannot wait to hear what you think of this. Oh, here we go. All right, let's do it. It's Barry.

Oh, I really want to know what Sam thinks about Barry. It's on my list. Oh, I like, I like, I like the filmmaking of Barry and his performance in particular more than I like the tone. I am shocked. If that makes sense. So I got a chance to host a Barry panel last night. It's no big deal.

I was a panel talk at the DGA. So to get ready for it, I rewatched 710 North, which is the motorcycle chase episode. Which is some great piece of filmmaking. It is absolutely like a, no, but the entire episode is a fucking masterpiece. Is that the episode where she kills... Spoilers? Where she kills the guy in the booth? No, that's later.

That's also... Whatever that episode is. Yes. She's great. Who's that actress? Sarah Goldberg. What's her name? Sarah Goldberg.

Amazing. Yes. She plays Sally. She has an amazing arc this season. But this is the episode. It ends with the... This guy has the Beny's store where they're all...

These characters keep going into the Benier store and, like, the guy... Is that the guy who... Yeah. The guy is just like, let's start a business together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also... Vanessa Byer when they go into pitch Banshee and she's just like, we have like a yeah

and you're like, yeah. There's like so many different funny things that's also got Robert Wisdom's character Jim Moss shows up. It's fuchs in Mexico being like, what's your word for water? It's so perfect. So you talked a lot about shows consistently evolving.

Never resting on their laurels. Abso fucking. Barry is like, you can write the pitch for Barry. on the back of a bar cocktail napkin, but what Barry is, like you could tell me next year that it's just going to be a prison drama or that it's going to be a Western

or that it's going to be a dream sequence or it's going to be whatever. I have no idea. Here's the thing that I love about, I love everything you just said about the show. I'm probably more. When Bill Hater, because when the show is about

him wrestling with the morality of what he's done in the past, in the past and what he still is doing and having that sort of PTSD about it. I fucking love it. There's something really deep and dark and interesting. I didn't expect it and unexpected.

I did not think the show was going down that path. But there are too many moments for me where I feel like it's not a... I'm not saying it needs to be about that one thing, but I wish it was more in that tone. You're very protective of Toluca Lake and you don't like seeing the Valley represented on screen. I know. This is true. This is true.

Andy, did you have Barry on your list? Barry's my number four. I mean, we talked about it a lot of the time. I agree with everything you're saying. And I do think there were moments in Barry this season, particularly this episode, where I was like, this is what this is for. Like, this is what the dream of TV of the last 10 years was heading to. Thank you, Andy. Pure filmmaking. On an elite level, writers don't matter. And definitely don't have the last word. Cutting in camera, just pre-vising everything, you know?

Do you see what I'm saying, Andy? I finally do. picking it up now. I finally do. The only thing Barry is missing, in my opinion, is time jumps. Because it already doesn't have Brian Tyree Henry, which is good. When can we get to late middle age Barry? No, I think Barry is like a miracle, and I thought it was incredible. And my journey of watching the season after the long break being like, wait, I don't

remember how this makes me feel. And I don't, oh my God, I'm just, I'm in its world. Yeah. Kaya, number five. My number five was industry. There you go. There we go. Sam, number four. Euphoria, which. I think is... Let's do it. Can I ask you...

Are you on... Is it on your list? It's on my number eight. Do you have euphoria on your list? Yeah, it's my number seven. Okay. Is this the best directed show on television? Yes.

It might be the best directed show on TV and film. This is the best directing. This is best directing. Say why. I mean, the guy just knows how to move the camera. Where do they put the camera, sometimes he doesn't move the camera. I mean, we talked about the Christmas specials off mic, but those were not on.

A lot, those are just a lot of stuff. The Zendaya episode is just a two-hander. So it's not just about, when I say he's a great director and probably the best director on TV, it's not just about what he does with the camera, but the performances he gets, not just from Zendaya, but from Jacob Allorty and Sidney, honestly, the whole cast, what's the actor that plays the drug dealer? He's fucking amazing.

And the writing that he gives them to perform off of, It's all around just one of the most brilliant executions, execution of a singular vision. And that's why I think it's the best directing. Now, does he do innovative things and pushes the medium forward in terms of how the camera can tell a story? Absolutely. But it wouldn't work without what he gets out of his performance.

I think it works specifically because it's melodrama. Like, it gives him such an incredible canvas to paint on. Like to have these big emotions, to have these people going through these volcanic life changes of like addiction, love and betrayal and murder and all this shit. Like if it was like, if it was more like what if this guy directed freaks and geeks? I don't know if it would work as well. Sure. Sure. I would like to see that.

But can I just say also the show at its heart is about addiction. Yeah. Definitely is. It's fucking entertaining. I mean, how do you do that? I mean, that is a skill of a great filmmaker. Because I do think, no matter what, and I know some people sort of disagree with me about this, but whether it's film or TV, I still think the number one priority is entertainment. Like, I think Hitchcock said that, you know, do not be boring.

And I don't want to watch an essay or I don't want to watch a dry piece of material that's just trying to give me a message, right? But the fact that he's able to tackle on a subject like that and still make entertainment a priority is pretty remarkable. There's also something to be said for the fact that in an age where I think more and more of our biggest stars, for lack of a better term, are playing it safer than ever. The Zendaya is doing this. Oh, my God. And that she's doing it. It's not like she's like doing it for charity. She's like, this is my star-making performance that I'm throwing every single thing I have into it.

And maybe everybody knows me from Spider-Man. But like, she's doing as good of a job as you can do acting on screen. I think she is her character and what she goes through in second season. And that's the thing same is like, I could tell you what happens. I could tell you what she goes through and you'd be like,

but like it's so fucking thrilling. It's like watching Goodfellas. It's just, it's so exciting. It's the how, rather than the what of the storytelling. It's how he's telling this story that just really just grabs you and doesn't let you go. I remember when I first saw Raising Arizona,

which I assume you've all seen. And there is something about the feeling that to me, Raising Arizona, it picks you up from second one and does not let you go until the end of the film. And that show does that week to week for two seasons now. I mean, that's incredible. That's pretty much a fucking magic trick. I don't know how he, I'm sure he can sustain it. I don't know when the show is coming back. It's massively popular. But like the amount of ideas he pours into each episode where he's like, I'm just going to do musical. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do Boogie Nights, end of Boogie Nights now.

Like, it's just so relentless and it's kind of like creativity that it's, it doesn't even seem like something he can do for much longer, right? He almost has to, like, I know he made this, the idol show, but I'm like. Oh, that's right. With the weekend. Yeah. Kyle, what do you like about? What did you think about Euphoria season two? Yeah, I mean, not much to add from what you guys have already said.

I mean, it was really one of the only event shows of the year, too, which is like kind of amazing for a show about like high school students because it has, honestly, a math. of appeal, like, where it's like, Gen Z, like, they fucking love this show. Like, TikTok loves this show. And, like, it has influenced, like, makeup fashion. Like, if you go on TikTok and are like euphoria makeup, it's like millions of videos, you know? And then also, of course, just like, I mean, like Hunter Schaefer eyes and stuff. Yeah. And I mean, aside from like Zendaya, it's like Sydney Sweeney is giving an amazing performance. The drug dealer, Fez, is played by Angus Cloud, who it seems like he's just playing himself. Because when he does interviews, he's just fess.

And then like Alexa Dimee, Maatatow, like also yeah, the like idea of like putting on like a three episode arc about like a high school play and it's like really fun to watch and good is like yeah, it was just really

really good. And what, and your excuse, Andy? It's increasingly irrelevant because this has been my favorite part of the podcast you guys making a very compelling case for me to watch something that I have foolishly avoided. Why? Just

Well, my original... Can I interrupt one second? Because when I ask a lot of people, especially with kids, why have you been like, I'm not, I don't want to see. That was my bit. That was my first. I have a kid now, so you can't make that excuse. I still fucking, I have a daughter. Do you watch it with her?

I will in time. She was interested. She turns two. Bang. Yeah, man. Let's do it. Let's start. The rewind.

What you should do is blue for you. Yeah. which combines the Australian wit and sweetness of bluey with the hardcore shenanigans. No, it was one of those things. I believe it premiered in 2019 when I was... And I put it on my best of the decade list. Right.

...off that one season. I was just in production and it was like, oh, I don't need to get to it because maybe it won't be a hit and then it was a hit. And then also I was like, the subject matter doesn't really feel good right now. There's no excuse. The answer is there's no excuse. It is important enough culturally that one should be familiar with it,

even if only for the filmmaking and the performances, I got nothing. Okay. That was my number... Wait, so where are we now? You did number four, that was Euphoria, right? That was four. Andy, what's your number four? Barry.

Okay. So my number four, it's better call Saul. Kaya, what's your number four? My number four is Bad Sisters. Yes. Which is my number 11, yeah. I want to see this. Which was...

I haven't seen it yet. This is on Apple, right? Yes. Sharon Horri. just like a really fun show based for five Irish sisters trying to kill their sister's husband over and over again and just like a really fun time. Yeah, it's my easiest pitch is like if the Cohen brothers did Bigelawize. Oh, I can't wait.

I don't have never seen any 200. Yeah. For me, that falls into a category of shows where there are a few others where I was like, I enjoy this first episode. I'll get back to it. Oh, no, there's 40 others. I know. That's on me.

Okay. Number three soon. I wonder if this is on your list It's got to be on your list I'm gonna be really mad Wow I just went through that I just had like a rollercoaster You're gonna be mad

It's gotta be on your list Severance What number is it on? Nope I knew this was gonna happen I was waiting for this We're ready to talk about it Wow

Okay I did I thought You were a big Ben Stiller Hive guy Huge Is it great director Is it not on your list either I couldn't get into severance Nothing is hit

I'm harder, by the way, than Kaya letting him down. Well, that, yeah, I mean, you two not like a severance, okay, but Kaya. Yeah, by the way, not like it. We said this at the beginning. It's on your top ten. Is it in your 10 to 20? Yes. Oh, yeah.

Like, we could do 10 to 20. 11, 12, 13. I mean, I didn't rank the other 10. Yeah, it's there. Of course it's there. It's very good. What can I say? You guys are both, all three of you, very wrong about this.

But I knew this would be high on your list. Of course. And I think it's for the same reasons why it's maybe not on mine. Well, I mean, should you start then? Is this because of the supremacy of the directing over the writing? No, I don't think of that at all. I don't agree with that at all. It's because Brian Tyree Henry is not in it.

Thus, Sam is satisfied, narratively with it. I think I'll just jump off that. I don't think the writing is overshadowed by the directing at all. I think they are fucking perfect. It's a perfect marriage that show of what the tone of the story and the writing is asking for and what Ben is doing with it. I mean, go down the list, every filmmaker on this show from the production design, from the actors,

from the show running. It's, and the music, holy shit, it's fucking perfect. I mean, it's 10 out of 10. And the finale, I mean, I argue with me, tell me a better finale this year than the fucking first season of suffer. That may have been the best episode of TV this year. I mean, give me a fucking break. What more do you want a show to do?

The other thing I want to do, I want to say is like... He's not you're listening at this point. No, I'm not. I'm so... I'm really, really puzzled. Give me the... How did it not crack your top ten?

I'm shocked. Because there's a lot of competition. Yeah, but... I mean, the answer is I liked other things more. Yeah. I think that on the positive side, I think that it is, without question, the best production of the...

I think the direction is impeccable. I think Ben Stiller is an incredible director. I think the episodes he didn't. Beautiful, seamless. production design, best of the year. Absolutely. I continue to admire not just the show as an opportunity for Friend of the Pod, Adam Scott, to do some of the best work of his career,

but also Britt Lauer, Zach Cherry, Tremel Tillman, like star-making performances from them. I couldn't shake the feeling, ultimately, that for me, the technical excellence outstripped the emotional aspect of the show. It's not bad. It's my 11 or 12. I can't wait to see where they go from here. but that was the distinguishing thing for me.

I watched it, and at the end of the finale, aside, finale is exceptional. I mean, I was about to bring up the finale. How are you not emotionally grabbed? I was. Up to that point, though, I was watching it with deep admiration and respect, but not much more than that.

It was my reaction to it was chilly. The show isn't necessarily chilly. People are in love with it. Well, I won't argue that the show, but you love tar. I love tar. Well, it doesn't get colder than that. Yeah, but there's a lot of heat in tar.

Tars real. What the fuck does that make? You know what the fuck? No, I don't know what the fuck. Tars about... You know Lydia Tars aren't a real person. No, Tarr's about real life. To me she is.

Tars about the real world. Like, I think he was reacting to the fact that that thing had like the world coursing through its veins. This is like a... So fucking what? Who cares if it's a stylized show? What? We like the show, Sam. This is not a fair rhetorical device to be like, you can't...

No, I'm asking you. You said it's too cold for you. And I know that you love the movie. No, my reaction. I didn't say the show. I was specifically saying that it left me cold. I don't think the show is overly cold. I do think that at times the show felt more interested, at least in terms of the first season.

Again, we'll see. We can only judge what we have in front of us. Like, at the end of the hallway is baby goats. Okay, that's really cool visual. I feel often that the show is addicted, at least in the first season, not addicted. Trends sometimes towards the cool reveal, the cool gotcha, the cool twist. You feel it's gimmicky? It's mystery boxing.

Gimicky is wrong because I love the show and it was a beautiful visual. What, it is? Well, so is White Lowe's on your list? No, it's not. Is White Lowe's not on your list? It's also my least, the thing I'm least interested in is like pre-solving

what happens in it. But I don't think Severance to me was about, I wasn't, like, to me, the thing that I was compelled by with that show is not like trying to... But this is a game of inches. Like, to be clear. That's what I'm saying.

This is one of, unquestionably, one of the 13 best shows of the year. And at a certain point, it is Pickham. And I felt more strongly about things like your beloved Atlanta than I did. I liked Atlanta more than severance. Well, and I have that higher than severance. But that was tough for me.

That was tough for me. I'm sorry. Thank you, Chris. I hope you come back. I appreciate it. Number three for Andy. Number three is the bear. My number three is the bear. Jeremy Allen White. Is this on your list? He's one of my... Is this on your list? It's clearly not. Look at his face. It is not in my top ten.

You can get your fucking parking validated if this isn't on your list. Jeremy Allen White delivers a great performance in this show. By the way, Jeremy Allen White, when I would watch Shameless, be like, oh, he's really good. And then on your show, on Homecoming,

is when I was like, wait, he's incredible. It's like, what's this kid doing? That performance on Homecoming was the door to this for me. And the performance on the bear is fucking next level. Yeah. And I'm very happy for him. Is it on your list, Caya? The bear on your list.

The bear's my number one. Yes, Caya. That's our producer. What number is it on your list? Number three and number three. Number three. Okay. Talk, please talk.

I mean, I don't know if anything. I love the, this is very the watch podcast, but like I love the story of this show as much as I love the show. I think it's a near perfect season of television that brought me enormous joy and surprise and exhilaration. It did a TV thing, which I think even you'll sign up for, which is going into that show. I didn't really know who A.O. I de Beery was.

You know, I loved Evan Moss-Back. In the small pieces, I've seen him. I didn't know he was capable of this. By the end of this show, I'm like, They're your family. I would take a bullet for any of these people. I love them. They are these characters.

It's alive. And, you know, I'm already in the tank for food shows anyway. But, like, the ability to do something that has been said to many people, including me, that that's not a world that is interesting. That's not a world that can sell or translate. And they nailed it. And when I say the story behind the show that, like, you know, it was cheap. Okay, we'll give it a shot.

FX didn't even seem to know what they had. And it actually worked. People talk a lot about how hard it is to break through or to get people to notice new things. to feel that organically happen with a show. It hasn't happened in a long time, too. No, it had one-two-hundredth of the budget of rings of power or whatever, and it's just people were talking about it

and loving it and watching and re-watching it. And it's the thing that TV does. Like you said, it mince, maybe not stars. Like, I don't know, it's like, but it made all of a sudden, like, one week you'd have no idea who Evan Moss Backrock is, and next week you're doing cousin Richie jokes at your party. It just felt great.

It's such a positive. Everything about it is a positive for me. I loved it. And it's weird that Sam, hates it. Hates it. And it's like, honestly, it's fucked up that you did that to Jeremy. Jeremy did not listen to these guys.

All right. Who's next? Kaya, what's your number three? My number three is the dropout. Yeah. Anybody else? I didn't get making my list. It's on my long list.

It's really funny. Amanda makes my list. Yeah. And the sound track. She's unbelievable. Yeah. Kai, why did you like it? I thought out of all of...

She's been waiting for Wolf Parade to be used. God damn it. I thought out of all. of the quote unquote Wikipedia shows, this was just like by far the best. And I think I tried almost all of them. Did you try the Uber one? I tried the Uber one.

It was not good. I tried the We Work one. It was slightly better. I think Girl from Plainview would probably come in at second on that list for me. But yeah, this one was just like,

okay, this is like how you do this. Oh, and then also the Anna Delvey one, which was far, far on the bottom. This is the show where it was like,

okay, this is how you do this. This is how you make these, like, ripped from the headline shows and, like, actually make it good. And I don't know how much of that is due to Amanda Safeord's performance, which was so good that Jennifer Lawrence was like, you know what, never mind. I'm just not going to make a movie.

Yeah. But it had a lot of, like, I think it didn't sympathize with this, like, awful person so much, but he did, like, show, like, this is their character and this is what drove them to do it without being, like, you should feel bad for them that now, they got in trouble because they did shitty things. One of the great what-ifs, you know, is this show was put together and packaged with

Kate McKinnon as the star. That's right. And Liz Meriwether was, you know, she and Liz Hannah were both involved in the show. Liz Meriwether was kind of show running it. And it seemed like it was going to be pitched as a broader comedy. Not that Kate McKinnon can't do whatever she wants. She's amazing. But it's almost impossible to imagine the show going in that direction because Safe Reade's performance

was so so titanic and so specific. I really I don't know I mean it's just interesting I just I watched the whole show on a flight Like I just found it really compelling It was really good Evan Moss back rack in that too

Yeah he's good What was he in that? He was the reporter Yeah Oh okay Yeah Okay top two I only watch Christopher Nolan movies on flights

I did the bear for my number three So number two Sam My number two Wow we're here Let's talk about Andy Greenwald Atlanta season four I believe We're back on this

I believe I feel like we left this I believe Brian was in every episode. No. No. He was not in the camping episode. Yeah, he must have hated that one. It was torture.

Torture. I can't believe you like the season. It was so squishy and sentimental. I don't dislike it was that. What the fuck? Why do you think I don't like sentimentality? I like to be, I like warmth. My television.

Good. It's one of the best shows on TV, one of the best shows ever. It might be, it has a great argument after the four season run it had, including season three, it's probably one of the best shows, in my top ten of best shows of all time. It's probably one of the best comedies of all time. It's just remarkable, and the way it ended was so sublime. I still remember that last moment pushing in on Lakeith Stanfield.

Yeah. It's just, it's a note, perfect, pitch, perfect show, and it's dialed in, and they knew exactly what the world was. They knew exactly what the tone was. By the way, that tone is not easy. to pull off. That weird kind of in between surreality and but still being incredibly comedic and broad even at times, they were able to do something really special that is not duplicated. It can't be, it feels like it's kind of impossible to kind of have anyone rip it off in any way.

It's, it's pretty remarkable. So hands down, one of the best comedy of the year. I think maybe something that we could all agree on is that one of, something that's separate. truly great TV from Less Great TV is the absolute rock solid confidence of the creators knowing what the show is and what the show isn't and being like, we know. We're going to do that. And that's the lesson of Atlanta for me.

And that last season in particular was stunning throughout and surprising and thrilling. I mean, there's a one episode not to, again, can we spoil? Yeah. But that one episode where you're following two tracks, two storylines and you're like, why am I watching this one storyline

and not the... And then you realize, It sort of pays off. The one with the soldier boy dance and the shooting in the mall? No, I mean, that was a great episode. That was amazing. It was the one with the children's book author. Oh, right.

Following her track. The long con bit set up. And Donald Lovers therapy sessions. And then it sort of intersects at the end. But I think it's worth saying, like, where it left us, like, and obviously changed my opinion about the last two seasons entirely. Like that last episode is so, so elite. It's so beautiful.

It's so moving. It's so confident. It's so important. the things that it didn't do. We said it and we talked about it, but like, it was not the gang moves to L.A. I know. One last Huron, Atlanta. It was just like, this is... So not TV. This is what life is. We're going to keep hanging out. Yeah. And we're going to keep hanging out. It resisted every trope of a series finale. And I think that, to your point, Sam, like, I think we'll see over the next few years, which, you know, what shakes out in our

personal top tens or in the official canon. But it is without question, one of the most important shows of all time. And I'm as interested in its legacy into who's been watching it and what they'll do and what lessons they learned from it as I am in what they made in those two seasons. Well, so? Look at us getting along again. Number two. We're friends again.

Oh, thank God. That was a rough 10 minutes. I mean, 100 minutes. How long have we been doing this podcast? Reservation dogs. I didn't see it this season. Oh, my number nine. What a treat.

What a treat for you, Sam. Kai, is it on your list? I also have not gotten around to it. Now, can I just ask? Because one of my criticisms of the first season, which I adored, was it got very TV towards the end. Is that something? Because it was like too convenient? Well, we're going to leave.

We're going to leave. What's the typical TV thing that happens by the end of that season? They don't leave. They stay. And so I'm just curious. No, some of them leave. Oh. Well, then maybe.

At the end of the first season. And then they do with it. I don't remember that. Our main character doesn't leave. He's the one that was driving that narrative. But Allora leaves. Right, right, right. And then the beginning of the season is like, okay, they left, now what? Okay.

And the show is just operating on a level that I think Atlanta, at its best, does as well, which is like, this is a vehicle for anything. This could be week to week. It can be anything. But for me, it is razor sharp with its emotional language and its storytelling. And so no matter where it takes me, I feel absolute confidence in where we're going and the head shakes. No, I'm shaking my head because I'm excited. You're telling me, I'm... I just...

This is what I want to hear. From week to week, it was the best comedy, it was the best family drama. It was a wild melodrama. It was engaging. I mean, it's just... And the filmmaking is also, I think... Yeah, it's great. ...really, really, really high level.

And it's just so entirely its own thing. I just feel like lucky to be on the planet that this is being being... Wow. Honestly. And for me, it was the most moving... I just said this about the Atlanta finale, but this season of Reservation Dogs felt deeply emotional to me. Yeah, it's about loss. It's about loss.

It's about... It's about obligation and responsibility and family and just being adrift in the world in a way that is just so dialed in and it's so specific. And like what I was saying about the bear, like one of the things that threads through the whole list is just a feeling of sometimes TV can still give you joy. Like we get to watch more of this. Not in the sense that it's TGIF, but like there's more story to tell here. We can keep going deep. And I love it when you feel it and you feel that joy emanating from the creative team too being like they're just rubbing their hands. like the guy in the yellow suit and the meme being like

just wait till season three. My number two is we own the city. Oh, talk about it. Let's talk about this. I haven't seen this either. Yeah. I have heard your impressions. Yeah, that's right.

Or impersonations. They're impressions. Yeah, Wayne Jenkins. John Bernthal's performance in this show. By the way, did you see the other John Berenthal show? The Bear? Oh, American Jigolo? Yeah.

I didn't watch American Jigolo. I watched the first episode. It's so crazy that there's an American Jigolo television. starring with John Bernthal. With John Bernthal, and none of us have seen it. So this is, like, I think pretty unique in most TV that I watched this year. And that it's like, it's half essay and half TV show. You know what I mean?

A lot of this is about... That's, you know, David. It's Simon, but this was largely a Pelicanos thing. The George show ran this show. I would say that a couple of things. One, I don't think we talked enough during the actual run of the show that Rinald and Marcus Green did. It was just this fucking amazing job directing every episode. Bernthals gives it because the performance of the year is Wayne Jenkins.

And there's not like a central character. There's a bunch of central characters through which we see the POV of like what happened over the course of this however long 18 months, 36 month, like case against this anti-crime unit, this gun unit in Baltimore Police Department. But the thing that I think I admire most about this show and my number one show was that it never insulted my intelligence and in fact challenged my intelligence and was like, I think you can keep up with this. I think that if you... What is Chris's number one show? Give yourself over this. You will... Oh, I know.

Yeah, you will get it. And this show, speaking of my just absolute, like, incomprehensibility of time jumps, does a lot of chronological stuff where you can only really tell what time period is based on, like, somebody's hairstyle or, like, whatever, it's jumping back and forth across months, across the investigation. When the sea snake shows up in episode five.

Yeah, I know. And it's like, when Bernthal marries his niece, Actually, that's on brand. But yeah, I mean, we've talked about it a ton this year. I don't want to believe it. It's like a throwback to fucking hard-core city. It's basically Prince of the City. It's amazing.

It is also worth celebrating because it is, as always, unfortunately, maybe, with David Simon and Pelicanus productions, it's sweet generis. I don't know if it's in dialogue with any other shows. I don't know if people are watching it being like, let's do more of that vibe. It's just its own type of storytelling. It's part journalism.

It's part pulp novel. and it's just one of the best expressions of that. I think partly because of the filmmaking and the star power, which are two things they've always had great actors, they've always had very good directors, but I don't think they've ever done to your filmmaking this way. This is one person directing this and putting a particular aesthetic stand on. And there's nothing easy about it.

You don't come out of it being like, now I know how to feel about all this, which I think is really cool. Kai, what's your number two? My number two is White Lotus. Let's talk about it because we haven't talked about it. We've been talking about it. We've been talking about nonstop, so I want to hear Sam and Kai to talk about it.

You start, Kyah. Because we're recording this. We haven't seen the finale, and it's on 75% of our lists. I think it's a real testament to the show that I, like Chris says, I don't care about who died. I don't think about it week to week. I'm not looking for clues. I'm just enjoying, cringing while watching these characters that I really like, but also simultaneously despise. And yeah, I just think, like, there's really, really amazing performances.

Aubrey Plaza, Megan Fahey, are probably my, like, top two right now, but it kind of changes week to week. Yeah. And I don't know, like, who doesn't want to hang out at a beautiful Sicilian resort every week? It's seven episodes, but I'm trying to make it last longer. I wish it was more. I don't know why it couldn't be more. I'm glad they're not belaboring it or like that they would be like, oh, great, another day trip. Cool, like, you know, or like.

I don't want to see them taste wine again. in love with someone else, but Sam, why do you love the show? I mean, let's just say this, and Andy, and I know we're both writers. I think the one, how do I say that? Like, I think the best writers

understand human behavior. I think that's actually one of the basic principles of good writing when it comes to characters. And I don't know if anyone's better than Mike White right now at that. I agree. And there's Tony Gilroy out there. I know. I know he's

He's coming. He's common. And he's on my list. It's different. But holy fucking shit, man. Mike White does not spare one second to tell you who these people are. Not one line, not one moment, not one facial reaction. He is constantly mining and challenging and putting characters in awkward situations,

pushing them on the edges and boundaries of where they are, not afraid to go there with them. And they're all incredibly different. The way you talked about Jennifer Coolidge, I love, I, see, I'm complimenting you. What he was able to pull out of Jennifer Coolidge. That's, that's someone who just understands how people operate. And he is, I mean, he did this in Enlightened, a fucking fantastic show that no one saw, but, but it's, there's some, and his films, but there's just something about, there's just something indelible about the way he's able to really zero, in on each of the flaws of these people that are not judgmental, but empathetic and really fucking entertaining. I mean, it's fucking fun to watch these people. And they're sometimes

going through torturous things, real dramatic things, real relationship, you know, things that could echo, you know, things in our own lives that should make us feel uncomfortable, but somehow is able to effortlessly make it entertaining and never. At all, I've used this word before, but it bears repeating, never at all judgmental. I don't think I hate anyone on the show. And I don't think I like anyone on the show. Yeah, I don't think it's the point. They're fully human.

Yeah. And I think it's worth in the spirit of the larger conversation. He is a full filmmaker. Oh, and let's talk about it. And. Let's talk about it because it's not just the writing. Two seasons in essentially two calendar years of this quality. It's insane.

And do you feel like the film? filmmaking, maybe he's feeling it more, or the setting is inspiring him. I feel like it's stepped up even this season. So when I, like we talked about Sam Levinson being the best filmmaker on TV, which I'll still stand by. But it's not being ostentatious with the camera or being stylized or being kind of over the top of the music. It is really just about being able to tell a story in a, like the how of your, of the, of the storytelling is as important as the story itself. And Mike White is delivering something in tone. And when I talk about filmmaking, it really is about tone. There's like something sort of intrinsic about when you're

watching something that tone has to be really specific and hit. And you can tell when you're watching a bad movie or a TV show and it's kind of all over the place, that's the sense that the filmmaker doesn't have a handle on how he's delivering the story. And Mike White, man, he is like, it's almost like he's like really kind of calibrated everyone's performances to his will. And you're getting this like really, like, you know, those scenes that you pointed out, Andy, where Aubrey Plaza and Megan Fahey are in, I can't remember the town. No-to. Yeah, yeah, no-to.

And it's got this like sort of surreal, you know, kind of Falini-esque type or Antononi type sequence in there. And then even in the last episode, which I know you guys talked about, the party. It's just, there is, filmmaker, there is not just the written words on the page, but how he's sort of filming these set pieces are pretty, pretty innovative. And his control over all of it. One thing that I was interested in, it's part of the experience, so it doesn't jump out. But Chris loves it when I reference other podcasts that I do listen to. But so Mike White was on fresh air, which I recommend. We're going to talk about this on Monday, because he says something really interesting, I think. But they play a clip, you know, which is like,

I'm going to set you up here. to play a clip from the season. And what I appreciated when it was excised from the visuals and from anything is the way he does sound design. So like music cuts in between lines of dialogue or you stray sounds, you know, the piano player is aggressively brought to the fore in a way that he is curating our experience at this resort in a way that does not feel ostentatious. You don't necessarily notice it, but it contributes to the way that a lot of us talk about it, even without the filmmaking knowledge, about it being an intoxicating season of TV or an immersive kind of vibe.

We're not looking at our phone, even though nothing's happening. That's filmmaking, right? I mean, it's remarkable. And how, and he does something that's really, I mean, I'm going to bring up a master. He's one of my heroes, Louis Bonnewell, and one of my favorite films is the discrete charm of the bourgeoisie. And he does something that kind of harkens back to him in this way, which is he goes to sometimes an absurd, sort of, he hits sort of an absurd limit with, with, with, you know, and

the set pieces or the characters or whatever, the scenes, how the scenes are sort of manifested. Yeah, like Tanya on the back of the scooter or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it never feels broad or never, he somehow is able to pull off absurdity, but yet keep us grounded in the real human

emotions of these people. I mean, the fucking line about, was it Peppa, Peppa, I mean, it's just that felt like a different, that should have been in a different kind of show. It's also been interesting to watch how I think looking back on the first season, I think the second season is better at this point. And I also think that it's...

It's kind of amazing that people are saying that. Well, I think that it's more of a co... I almost want to say a coherent tone. Like, I think all of the performances feel like they are happening in the same reality. Whereas in the first season, I think that some people were in a good way where it was like, Steve's on doing his own thing.

And Coolidge is doing her own thing. And Cudely's doing her own thing. Like it was happening almost like it was like, I got to get all this stuff out. And now he has like the confidence. They're like, man, people really like this. And I am in control of it. It's so cool.

Again, when you listen to interviews with him now, like, you know, he's like, he's been through it. I mean, he's been successful for 20 years. But he's like, no one's ever really liked or loved what I've done. Yeah. And he's, he likened it. And he has like, obviously, a connection to Hawaii. But he's just like, it's like, I've been in the ocean for 20 years and I finally caught the big wave, you know, and I'm really enjoying it.

The last point I wanted to make, that came from that interview. I think this is going to be relevant when we talk about the finale. So I might step on in a little. But I think it's generally understood in the show that, you know, and we talked about it this week, that one of the genius aspects of it is people go on vacation, but they bring themselves along, right? And they're kind of just exposed. They can't get away from it. I never consider the extra layer of money in the world money and class plays in the show, which obviously is what the show's about.

And there is definitely some luxury vacation porn element that draws people in. But his point is it's especially revealing to him when you put people in paradise. and they never have to worry about anything anyway, and then their problems. Not in a judgmental, like, what are these people complaining about? But you've swept away all of the quotidian day-to-day concerns

both of your actual life, and then also these people never have to make rent. And what is their... It's like a pure misery or a pure unhappiness that allows him to do this storytelling and could continue to do it for years. And you know, the other thing I will say, because he has a huge ensemble here.

We've got, like, how many four or five storyline? Yeah, like probably 10 people. Yeah, and each storyline's got like a few people. there are no backstories. There are no like, here's what happened 10 years ago and here's what I, like a great show that I love, is it called Fleischman is in trouble or is it called Toby Fleischman?

Fleishman is in trouble. I'll just barely miss my list. I love that show. But partly the reason, but there's a lot of flashbacks in your, and I love all that. As a narrator being like, Toby was like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I fall into it and I understand him more because of that. The fact that Mike White is able to do that without doing any of that is pretty fucking. I mean, it's rarefied error he's in. He's doing it himself. He's, and he's doing it himself. It's crazy. It's pretty crazy.

So that was your number two. That's my number two. No, that was Kyah's number two. But, it was your number, what was your number? It was number seven. Number seven. It's not on your list.

It's not on my list. Moyo in the city was my number two. What was your number two? White Lotus was eight for me, but like again, maybe after the finale it jumps. My number two is Red Stugs. Okay. And Kyah, what was your number two?

White Lotus. Okay. Number one. Do you want it? I think, I think, I think our number one has been mentioned. So let's do ours before Sam brings the house. I do, but I also...

Do you finally know what it is? I'm afraid that I do. I want to do... So we're going to talk about Andor now. My number one show of the year. Your number one show of the year. And my number six shows of the year. But can I just say it was my number two or three show of the year?

Like yesterday. I've been dying to hear what you have to say about this. So Andy and I have talked ourselves blue in the face about how much we love this. So I can say the same thing about human behavior. About Tony Goeroy. He's a fucking. and master, right? Like, you're not going to get better writing than him.

But then you have Bo Willemann. Like, in the seventh or eighth episode. Yeah, he's like the third reliever. But before that, you had Dan Gil. I mean, you have literally the murderers row of writers on this fucking Star Wars show. Yeah. That's also a spy show. And everyone's morally gray and there are no lightsabers or, you know,

Heroes Journey talk. It's just pure fucking, I don't know what to call it, drama. Spycraft thriller. It's really kind of impressive the moves that he makes between episodes. And one thing I will say about it, I fucking love that he doesn't have cliffhangers at the end of every episode. Yeah. I love the way he structured.

I loved it. And I think it was smart of him because I think it was probably his strength because he probably does view it as a, I know critics hate to hear this, but he probably did view it more as like a 12-hour movie. But that's fine. Like the way he broke it. Or four. four movies, you know what I mean?

Or four movies, yeah. Oh, because of the three. For 90-minute movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to a certain extent, in this day and age, it doesn't really matter where you're cutting up the episodes necessarily. But he just, I mean, the way he's able to move between, not just the storylines,

but the way he was able to, like, keep the scope of Star Wars, but make it about these people. But not just people, but like these fucking moral. you know, I don't say corrupt, but morally dubious people. To give them these fucking lines of dialogue, I know you've spoken about that great monologue.

Yeah, the Lutheran monologue. Holy shit, man. There's just like a moment between like... But wait a minute, that scene, let's just talk about that scene, for example. That's usually a perfunctory scene that you put, you know, we need to get him to convince this guy, and then we need...

Everyone's so hell bent on getting to the next plot point. but they fucking slow it down and they fucking deliver like no we're not going to just miss this opportunity to really dig deep on what it takes to start a revolution in a human way

not in a you know let me give you the fucking badass line no we're going to give you a badass monologue but it's not just for everyone to get out of their chairs and clap their hands but it's to really take in

what it means to sacrifice in a real human way, in a way that we can understand on planet Earth, not in a galaxy far, far away. That, to me, that scene is sort of the symbol of why this whole show works. So let me ask you specifically about this show, because as someone who has made movies and has made TV shows and has been in meetings and has been running a company, you exist on planet Earth in a world where the franchise death stars

are omnipresent and suck up gravity. And, you know, without getting into it, I'm sure that you've either had meetings or, you know, people have said maybe you want to do this or what would you want to do. And there's the argument of Trojan horsing something good within it, but it's never really worked out. What did seeing this show do to your show do to your, because we're all the same age. We all love Star Wars. So what did it do to you? Well, it's weird because it's not doing Star Wars. So it's weird because it's not doing Star Wars. So I know we're a weird. Because it's not doing Star Wars. So I know we're a weird. Weird way I was like, I don't know, like I love the original, I'm sure we all love the original trilogy. It's not doing that, which is fine. It's great. I wish, to be honest with it, I wish Tony didn't have to do it within the Star Wars. Yeah, like, if this was like set in the 1960s in Berlin, would you be more excited by it? Or, like, was that what you would.

Or if it was another fucking sci-fi show. Sure. That did what it did. The sci-fi part of it is amazing. That, that, I actually, yeah, I agree with Andy there. It is the fact that it's unexpectedly this Spycraft show in set in space is pretty fucking, I don't think I've ever seen that before. It's spy-fi. It's a new genre we just made up.

That's pretty fucking good. That's awesome. TM that. At the 113th minute of the podcast. I think that I read this piece in the LA review of books that's really awesome by a guy named Aaron Brady. Okay. So you can mention, I say fresh air and you roll your eyes and I got dropping review of books. He writes a lot about the sort of the politics of the show and about.

the differences between Andor and all the other Star Wars stuff that sort of come before it. And the idea that like all of Star Wars before this was kind of obsessed with archetypes. You know, like it's about like this boy who would be sure the savior. It's about he's special and believing that you're special is part of like having the force. The hero's journey. Yeah, the hero's journey. And how ultimately Andor's about a guy who dies. Probably most of the people on this show died helping him or not.

Luthan, like speech you're talking about, is basically a guy being like, I'm going to die doing this. Everything is basically about the kind of nihilism of trying. Right. And it works. It just makes you feel like connected to this story in a way that I think it captured your, what Aaron talks about in this piece is like, Star Wars captures your childlike imagination and this captures your adult imagination. Absolutely. I thought he did a great job in this piece. I can't compare it to the original because I like things that capture my childhood imagination.

But I don't mean in terms of comparing it to the original just like how you feel about it where we are as an industry because I think it's been increasingly a lot of the IP shows. Yeah, I think exactly. Of like after two or three years of getting increasingly depressed about like, oh cool, another take on this and now there's three jokers or whatever. It's like if it was this, if it was like, hey, here's $200 million. You can do something. Find the corner of this universe that you want to try and explore. And the only thing that I will say about that, though, is I don't like that I know how it ends. I wish I did not have that.

And I mean, don't you to a certain extent, you don't care. But not because the way it's been weighted, because in a way, Andor himself is the least important piece of it. Look, if this was just a show called Andor had nothing to do with Star Wars, of course you kind of know he's not going to die. The fucking show is called Andrew. Right. So it's not about that. But there is something, I just, I wish there wasn't this prerequisite that Tony Gilroy. has to write it in a franchise universe

in order to pull off a side-fries show. Well, the interesting thing is, like, we kind of hinted it. Not hinted. We talked about this, but like at the beginning of Rogue One, not to be dorks about it, he's in a pretty fucked up place.

Yes, yes. So I feel like the second season of Andor is going to be much more like Godfather 2 than it is going to be, you know, and then he became a hero. You know, like he's not a hero.

He's not a hero. He's not. You know, kill me or take me in. I mean, Jesus, fucking Christ. It's just on the, So, so good.

It really is. Can I, just one thing, we've said everything there's to say about it, really. Like, I think it's a miracle. Like, I... By the way, can I just to add... I had no idea what was happening from episodes. I didn't know what to expect from episode to episode. It completely shocked me every single...

And I also was like, I can't believe how good this is. I can't believe it's getting better, even though we obviously love Tony. But, like, there are other shows that we've talked about that had maybe more resonant emotional highs or whatever, but just the craftsmanship. and the level of quality and what it did for the state of television, put it number one for me. One last comment. When I've talked about it, you know, we usually don't do like people have been talking

or like industry corner when we talk to people who we know or friends or people who working at business. By the way, nobody I know watches the show. So this is what I want to say. General, it has 100% approval rating from everyone I know who has watched it. Yes. There's no one who has disliked it. Even people who are Star Wars agnostic.

The one thing that people say when I talk to people is, well, yeah, but nobody. he's watching it. And I just want to say, you fucking cowards, you do not need, we lick Bob Eiger's boots enough. Yeah. This show matters. It matters that they made it. It's really, really good. And I don't see the downside. I don't really care about Disney Plus's subs this quarter. I think the existence of the show, obviously, as art matters, but I also think for the industry, for the streaming service, for this multinational conglomerate of which I'm not a stockholder, having this in the portfolio is good and it matters and take the big picture and vision. and take the win. Stop

getting so nervous about it. Oh, it's not working. People don't watch it on Hulu. Who cares? I am surprised that it's not more watched. First of all, I don't know if that's true compared to what. Well, we're talking anecdotally, right? Yes, anecdotally, everyone's free. People are freaking out. Well, no, anecdotally, I don't know

a lot of people that watch the fucking show. Right. Did you know a lot of people watch Obi-Wan? No. But I know a lot of people watch House of Dragon. Sure, yeah. And I think if Andor had come out as a binge- watch or had come out like... You think that's the reason? But House of the Dragon

wasn't binge watch. No, I know. But House of the Dragon was constructed to make you be like, I got to see what happens next week. So you think it's just a cliffhangers part? Because you know the other thing I've heard about Andor is, I know a lot of people have seen the first two. And are like, what the fuck are they talking about? Yeah. Like, I don't know if I want to keep

going. But I also think it's, where is the audience, where did we leave the audience? How did we educate them and what are they interested in and prepared for? And Game of Thrones fans wanted more of the hallmarks of Game of Game of Thrones or that world and House the Dragon. And I said this throughout, you know, my otherwise critical take on it, delivered that. It gave people a consistent, if different in many ways, you know, in terms of the structure.

It was a consistent product of Game of Thrones, which on its merit, just saying that, made it a success. Andor is actively rewiring people to be like, hey, that thing you loved when you were a kid, this is not a retread of that. This is taking you back to a different corner of that world with an adult mindset. And I think that that is confusing to an audience. I see, you're saying because it's in the social world. Star Wars world, and it is an adult show. And it's on Disney, a service that, you know, is really Dattington Island for the most part. You know, and I think that it's, it is an easier sell to be like, Ewan McGregor is back playing

the character you already know and it's going to feel kind of like what you already know. And so then you have the hardcore fanboys and girls are satisfied, and then maybe the nostalgia will give it a look. This is trying to say, hey, everyone else, you can come back in the pool now. And I think that's a bet that may pay dividends in future projects if they're brave enough to greenlight them. But I understand why it was a confusing sell. And I don't think they marketed it particularly well. I mean, the art is beautiful.

But I don't know, and I also don't know what they could have done differently, but maybe premiering it from the start, like not doing the, oh, we need more people to watch this. So on Thanksgiving, it's going to be on freeform. Maybe from jump and like, hey, everybody. I think it was also tough that it came out towards, you know, rings of power and House of the Dragon. I mean, there was a lot of dork stuff on. Everybody was just like, my brain is kind of full. Right, right. Also, though, I just want to leave it, before we go into too much of a commercial conversation,

I'm like, they empowered Tony Gilroy to do this. Absolutely. And he's going to finish the deal. And it's like, they're not going to come in and be like. No, it's also like they're not going to come in and be like, can you make Cassie unlikable? But also, when is Michael Clayton masterpiece? Yeah. Was it a $200 million gross?

Can I just say something? I know a lot of people bemoan, I'll studios want to, you know, you know, make the same thing over and over, et cetera. Then something like this happens. Like, how do you explain this? How do you explain? They opened the fucking show with your main character, killing the totality of the vision.

I wonder whether or not that was like, he goes in and he's like, this now legendary, like, you shouldn't make this show, but if you were going to make it, here's how you should make it. And here's this like 80 page fucking manifesto. Manifesto. Like, he had the show in his head.

It was in his head. You had your show in your head. Like sometimes people come along, they have the idea. They see Mike White has White Lotus in his head. He's like, I gotta get this out. Yeah, but there was not a lot of note tampering on this show. I mean, you can tell that. And you can tell that.

Because he was like, if you don't want to do it, let's not do it. I think that that was what he was like, we don't have to do it. It probably won't be as big as Mandalorian. We just don't have to do this. But if it works, it's a sort of- It provides you a whole other place to go with this. He, yes, you're right. Like the power that he had to just say, I'll walk away.

Yeah, fuck it. Was the reason why it probably got made. But also, let's say this. Like, to be clear, I'm not intentionally caping up for Lucasfilm a company I may or may not have done work for this year. But I want to be clear that Kathy Kennedy, who's head of Lucasfilm, said, Tony Gilroy, I am hiring you to do this. Do it. That's great. That's amazing.

You can ding her for many other reasons, I'm sure, and you will be like, you know, Lord and Miller fired off of Solo. Who knows what that was about? But don't use the same language of criticism when she did something that's kind of balzy. And it's like, oh, it flopped. And amazing. Yeah, right. Like, this is what we want executives to be doing. Right.

Right. I think it'll have a second life. I do. I think that, like, over Christmas, next year, whatever. I hope so. I think people are going to be like, now that the entire season's done. Can I just say there is something, and it goes back to this, like, it doesn't feel like it was noted to death. There's just something not manufactured about this show, even though it is.

It's airtight. How could you even note it? I know. How would you be like, make Deirdreau do this? It's like, what? How could you, everything is put in an exact right place. They test shows, right? You know, you know, they test shows.

And there is like data. Okay, this person's not like, well, how do we, what do we? When this person did that, that's questionable. Maybe we want to cut that. Maybe we want to, I don't know if they did that on this show. Or maybe they did. If you wanted to know whether they noted the show, and this is a spoiler for case, I don't know why you're listening to this two-hour podcast.

about and or if they noted the show the Death Star would have been in episode 7. Absolutely. They would have been like, they're working on the Death Star. Just so you know, this is the Death Star. The thing that Cassium will eventually steal the plans to blow up. Right. And they didn't. It's a post-credit sequence.

And every time Tony's been asked about it, he's just been like, yeah, that was a fun. Or when Andy Circus says, I can't swim, you know, and or would have grabbed them. Then I will help you. Yeah, exactly. Those moments didn't exist in this show. It was allowed to be real and human. The marker I'll lay down, and when we come back and do this in two years, because the show will be on in 24th and second season,

I really feel that when it comes back, it will be treated like a big deal. Not just because the press liked the show and critics liked it, but I do think that the way that it will be received on its return, when it's made an impact, when people have talked about it, thought about it, processed it. I think it'll just be greeted differently. Will that translate into subs? I don't care. I don't know.

but yeah, I do think it'll be different. I want to just to wrap up. You don't know his number one. Oh, you know you're number one. I'm sorry. We can wrap up, though. Without your number one? Should we do it next year?

Yeah. Yeah, I can have two number ones next year. I'm so sorry. Your enthusiasm for Andor made me feel like it was your show of the year. I do love the show. Wait, we know Kai's is number one, right? The Bear. Yeah, my, the bear.

And you two are the Andor. And I know Chris knows what the show. What my number one is, right? I thought it was Euphoria. No, I know what it is. Go ahead, Andy. I dare not speak its name. Yellowstone?

No. I'll give you a hint. Andy was mistaken. Was? It happened again yesterday. Got Chris is puzzled by this. The best show of the year is the rehearsal. Oh.

And I know you hate the show, right? I mean, I know you don't want to talk about it? No, it's fine. Talk about it. Let's talk about it. I don't know why you hate this show. When you were doing a solo... The show is incredible.

We haven't talked about it. It's incredible. It is from, I mean, talk about, I don't know what. Like, okay, so the first episode, he sets up the premise that he's going to do these elaborate rehearsals so that people can make these sort of uncomfortable confession. And then you think, okay, that's the template of the show. And it is fucking not. Not at all. And episode to episode, it increasingly.

goes in these exotic, fascinating explorations of human behavior. I mean, that keeps coming up. We talked about Tony. We talked about Mike White. But Nathan Fielder is mining it to a fucking disgusting depth that I have never quite seen before. And it is just, it does something that movies and TV shows should always do, which is show me something I've never.

ever fucking seen before. It didn't show, it didn't do it. Well, it probably did have a big budget, but it didn't do it with like, remarkable.

I sometimes wonder if it has the biggest budget of any show on television. Yeah, I think it has the same budget as Andrew. But that's not why it showed me the thing

that I've never seen before. It doesn't have James Cameron, Avatar 3D effects. It doesn't have big scope. It does have time jumps in its own way. It does. It does.

Time jumps. Another, another key theme of this pod. It's just humans, humanity. And to, kind of plunge into humanity in this weird, but

like really insightful way, I name another show that's done that. And Andy, how, first of all, let me ask this question. How far did you get into it? One. And you were like... Not for me. Yeah. It's not for me. Right.

But how much of it is it because it's not for me because of the questionable morality of the show, which really disturbed. Like, I applaud Boundary like I do. I found it real and that's after one episode. Yeah. Did you read about what happened? Did you read about it? I'm real good not engaging with it anymore. I don't find

it like particularly okay from what I understand. But how much of this is also the fact that like the other day when I was I dropped one daughter off at an event and and then was walking with my other daughter and someone's like, hey, oh my God, I'm such a big fan of the show. And with my clearly outsized ego, I assumed he was talking about the watch or maybe S-Mail Corpse late lamented Briar Patch. And I was like, thanks. Lamented at all. Thanks. That's true. But, you know, I was like, oh, thanks. Thanks.

And he's like, oh, my wife and I just, we love it every episode. I was like, great. He's like, can I get a picture? And I was like, seems weird for a podcast, but sure. Okay. And he starts to put his arm around me. And he's just like, and I watch all of Nathan for you too. And I was like, yeah, that's.

Did you tell him? I was like, that's not a name. The most Nathan Fielder thing you could possibly do is pretend to be Nathan Fielder. I've told this. I will, to my younger daughter's credit, she said nothing. We got back in the car and then there was a long pause and she said, I'm glad I saw that finally happened to you. She's five.

Because you've been telling them this keeps happening. At a party, I think I said this on the podcast, four different people at the party. Well, I'm sure one person was like, can you believe Nathan Fielder is here? And then it got on the party. He was not. You think it was independent? No, no, I agree with it. But it's also like, you can.

I smile in the world, which I think is not his thing. He does smile. He just looks very awkward. This happened to me, all summer people coming up to me being like, I love the Northman. I thought you were great in that. Did they think you were the bear? You did your own stunts. So you're right.

I think I live, I don't want to speak any ill of the show or of him because I live in mortal fear that he will be canceled. And then I will no longer be able to exit my house in Los Angeles. That also would be an amazing, Nathan has been the second season of rehearsal. He gets himself canceled. And then the show is you being like, I can't do anything. I tap out. I see it.

It's just too, you guys see the vision. I just can't live through it. Chris, is it in your 11 to 20? Yeah. Should I tell you what my 11 to 20 is? Sure. I'd love to hear it. White Lotus.

This is going to hurt. Bad Sisters. Pichinko, Abbott Elementary, Outer Range. The rehearsal, Sherwood, Hacks, and Severance. Outer range, man. Fuck yeah, brother. That's definitely in my 11 to 20. What a fucking weird old show.

That show is. still never saw it. Oh my gosh. It's so out there in a really fun way. Is it coming back? It sure is. That's fucking awesome. Although it's going to be one of those, I think it might be one of those shows where it's like three years, it's going to take like two or three years for it to come on and you're just going to be like, well, yeah, that fucking black hole's still on there?

Can I name a couple others that weren't on that? Wait, did you see Night Sky? Did you see Night Sky? Did you see Night Sky? Did you watch that? You know? Great Jessica Lowry directed on that. No, I should. Again, it's just oh, another thing. It's Outer Range-esque. Sissy Space. C. Spaceek, J.K. Simmons, yeah. Irma Vep, we talked about briefly.

I love that. You said Abbott Elementary. Fleischman is in trouble. Fleischman is in trouble. The boys still think it's just consistent and really entertaining. Winning time, not mentioned, winning time is on my list. My long list. I am shocked at that show. I thought it was a really fun show. But I'm shocked that show did, I thought it was going to like sweep every award show. No? I don't even know when did that. That came out after the Emmys, right? No, before. It was early. It was before. And it's the Lakers.

It's this town. It was too crowded. That field was too crowded. I mean, okay. Yeah, Pachinko, you said, somebody somewhere, we mentioned briefly, makes this is a show that I really had a lot of time for. Is that the Jake Johnson show? Oh, I haven't seen it yet.

He's great at it. I love Jake Johnson. These are all good shows. Absolutely. And I think people, you know, no one's listening anymore, but I think that if anyone was, dude, we can keep going. Our 11 to 20 podcast, like, if we had just done that list, that would be a pretty interesting and contentious conversation. I know, did you guys watch the patient?

Yep. Oh, yeah, the patient. The patient. The old man. which I sort of agree with your criticisms of... The first three episodes of The Old Man. 1899. There was a lot of great.

I haven't made further into it. Did you finish it? I did. Yeah, I just finished it. You did? Yeah. What did you think? It's pretty cool.

Next month, let's go back, because I'm behind on that. And I... Yeah, it's not on the list because I just didn't finish it. Yeah. They shot that on the volume? The whole thing. Not the whole thing, but a lot of the... The outside the boat stuff.

Exactly, exactly. They were not out of seat. Let's put it that way. Yeah, well... Let's put it that way. Wow. Jesus Chris. I'm one, two, I'm two episodes.

Do you really think that this whole thing is on a boat? Yes. Oh. I'm only watching it because I love the life aquatic. I'll throw out a couple other ones. I really loved at the beginning of Under the Bader of Heaven. Oh, me too. Yeah, great first episode.

Tell Me lies, which is really trashy, like good, sexy fun on Hulu. Yeah. My buddy Jonathan Levine directed the pilot of that. Yeah. What do we else? So we have. The End of Ozark. Lord of the Rings, I thought, had some really great episodes.

I keep hearing episode six. Is that the big battle episode? And then Tokyo Vice. Ah, I haven't finished Tokyo Vice. There's a Michael Man TV show. I know. These are the first episode. And I really like the rest of it, but the first episode is like, that's a Michael

Man movie and then the rest of the season is more like this is a crime show. Yeah, it's still great. And they're making another season. And he's not coming back, though. Mike's not coming back. He's making Ferrari. That's. Hasn't he always been on some level of the building,

towards that. Kaya, any other shows you wanted to shout out? No, not really. I really liked Pichinko. Yeah, I liked Ozark. Yeah, also liked

the first few episodes of Under the Banner of Heaven, but did not finish it, unfortunately. Wait, Kaya, because I think you and I agreed on sex lives of college girls, right? On the first season.

You know, I only watched half of the first season. I haven't returned to it since. Did you watch it? I love the first season. The second season's a little bit challenging. It's made for people whose brains are falling out of their ears.

No. No, it's like every scene is like nine seconds long and then it's a drone shot. It'll be like one joke and then it's like, you're doing what? And then it's like, Dan, da, da, da, da. Sam will love that.

It's pushing the boundaries of the medium. That is like a lot of big swings in that show. Wait, man, I have to ask you guys because you didn't watch Ozark, right, Andy? I famously watched like four episodes, right? Okay. The first season, I think, just to endure myself to Chris.

And I remember there was that one episode. I think it's called Kalidescape. So, Colitis. Oh yeah, I watched that first season. Okay. Where it was like all out of time,

which I thought was really cool. But I didn't, I didn't go past the first season. You guys want, you guys were hardcore. You especially Chris. Big Zark guy, yeah. And this was the series finale, right?

It was. And not, not impressive enough? I think that it just, the third season ended on such an incredible high note that it would be. It was like much more, like when we talk about how Atlanta ended and it felt like the, they were going to just keep hanging out.

You know what I mean? Like the show ended, but those characters didn't. This felt like the inverse of that. Like even though like they kind of tried to keep... I don't want to spoil it was up for people. But like I just felt like it was like a little bit tidy. It was tidy. It was tidy.

All right. Well, what have we learned, Andy? I think we knew. No, I thought... I think everybody's pretty much on brand. Do you know what it is? It's cool about these lists is that we just had this very like, very peaceful mentioning of honorable mentions.

Yeah, non-contentious. It's wonderful. It's nice that you come in and you're just like, what I like is important. And if you don't like it, there's something, there's something wrong with you. Yeah. And I like that about myself. We don't do that enough on the show. Like, if Andy passes on a show or if I pass on the show, I'm like, go ahead.

You go talk to that person. I mean, there's one thing we've learned from generations of talk radio. It's that people like agreement. Yeah. They want a calm, supportive environment. Hi, Andy. Where only the positives are celebrated. Sam, before we go, I know you always have your rule about no S-Milcorp projects being mentioned, but you did have some shows this year.

I did. By the way, I think you interviewed my wife for Angeline. Honor to do it. As famously... My favorite, my secret favorite show of the year. But Emmy, you know, predates your involvement with this podcast. Did you get a top five for Emmy? But wait, let's... I did not. Angeline really worthwhile on Peacock.

Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Show starring your wife. Gaslet. Gaslet. Big show. On Stars.

And then the resort, which is awesome. which is on Peacock, which is also great. I really enjoyed the resort. You watched the resort? I did. No, I didn't hear it on the... That's not true. I think I mentioned it on the pod.

We don't want to keep you. We're hugging you, but we're hitting you. And next year, you're making your movie. Your movie's going to come out. My movie's coming out next year, and I'll be going away to Australia. I'll be shooting another TV series, which I won't mention right now.

Can I mention it? It's in the public record. Is it? Matt Max before Thunderdome, kind of like a prequel. Well, so now Chris just... A show that really began with the two of us and Allison Miller in 2016. This is true. Andy Greenwald and Allison Miller,

who ended up becoming the showrunner of Angeline. And the resort. And the resort were in my writer's room. We were the writers room. The three of us. And my favorite memory of that, in addition to everything, was that we broke the first day at like 530. We're in Culver City, driving home to see our children,

and we walked out past the Mr. Robot season three writers' room who all stopped in unison turned their heads and stared us. They were not happening. Kyle said the words, keeping bankers hours, are we? Fantasy does that to me a lot. Did you have a banner hanging up in the writer's room that said,

this is not a writer's medium? No, but he made that clear. You know, yeah. Yeah, that was more unaudible. But so you're going to,

you can say, you can say where you're going, right? I'm going to Australia. I think I can say that. You're going to watch so much bluey there. Oh, can't wait. get all the jokes.

If you're finally going to get the references. That's exciting. We're excited for you. But I'm still, I mean, if you'll invite me, I know this got ugly this afternoon. It was beautiful. Yeah. God loves it. I think it's the ugliest it's ever gotten.

It was just, I thought your Atlanta thing was like a good, we had a good meltdown. Every pot needs one. What do you think, Kaya? Also, when you walk out the door, we're going to cut it. Yeah. So the goal here is to just. So for the three listeners that are still, Hang out.

What should we say anything to say to them other than to just say goodbye? I'm sorry. Are you going to do the Baransky? By the way, her show's ending. Yeah, I know that we've never, I've never seen that show, but I keep hearing. It's an amazing show.

I didn't watch it, Chris? I didn't finish this season, but my wife just finished it, and she was just like, that show is great. The good fight. The good fight. People love it. People love it. And why do they love it?

I'm trying to stuff a fucking great sideway. I think they love it because someone always is a really good job. on stage, on screen, on the red carpet. Hey, thanks to Kaya McMullen, who hung with us here throughout another year. I apologize, Kaya. Tons of TV, tons of chat. It was a lot of fun. Kai, how's your blood sugar level?

Like, did you? I think I'll take that day. She had a tasteless soup before she came in. We tried to like. And now she is tasteless soup. We tried to prepare by having, this is the first time of three of us have been together in three years, I feel like. What do you think should you start doing constant in-person pods?

I like it. By the way, I'm here for another few weeks. I'll come back. No, no, you're definitely invited. You're good. Yeah, I think this is good. All right. Well, I loved it.

Yeah. No, the Atlanta season three rewatch pod starts next week with Sam S. Mal. Awesome. Christmas Day. Thank you. It'll be on the big picture feed. Thanks to Kaya. Thank you so much to Sam for taking so much time being so generous.

Thanks to our listeners. We'll talk to you soon.