The Watch - The Tricky Art of Making a Streaming Comedy and ‘Normal People’ Season Review. Plus, ‘Arkansas’ Director Clark Duke | The Watch

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

The trailer for ‘Space Force,’ Netflix’s flashy comedy created by Greg Daniels and Steve Carrell, was released this week, and we talk about what it takes to make a good streaming comedy (13:06). Plus, how ‘Normal People’ the show differed from ‘Normal People’ the book (28:37) and a conversation with the director of ‘Arkansas,’ Clark Duke (57:22). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Clark Duke Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he knows it's a cliche, but the Guggenheim is deeply overrated. It's Andy Greenwald. That scene reminded me of you.

You are such a Jamie. Wow. Wow. I am unprepared for this line of questioning. Andy, it's what the people wanted. I've been doing some Monmouth polling, and they were like, just do the whole season of normal people.

You two guys, two guys in their 40s talking about young love, talking about two really fit Irish people going to Jamtown. I've got some notes on consensual BDSM. Do you want me to get into that now, or should we set it up better? I don't want to spoil anything for people.

So this will be a spoilerific discussion, much to Chaya's chagrin of normal people. She's got three left, but she's read the book. So I feel like she's in... Kaya, let's just rip the Band-Aid off. Turns out they weren't that normal. Poorly named. Poorly-named show.

So yeah, we'll talk normal people. We'll talk the entire season, the 12-episode run. It came out about a week ago, which I know is a lot. But given how... Given how passionate we are about it, I think that it really demands it. The second half of today's episode will be an interview I did with Clark Duke,

who is somebody who a lot of people know as an actor in Hot Tub Time Machine and his beloved early web series, series, Clark of Michael. He's been in a ton of stuff. He was on the office. But he's got this movie out on Amazon right now that I was supposed to see it South by called Arkansas, which is one of those things that just seems like it was made in a lab for me and Andy. It is based on a John Brandon novel, John Brandon, actually used to contribute to Grantland. And it starts with a Charles Portis quote and goes on to pull lovingly from such sort of influences as

Elmore Leonard, Barry Hannah, Sergio, Quentin Tarantino. So if you are into or looking for a really interesting, quirky, Cohen Brothersy crime film, this one is awesome. It stars Clark Duke and it stars Liam Hemsworth, Vince Vaughn, John Malkovich. It's just an awesome movie. Yeah. I feel like this, everything you just said, it's like SEO for the double down. That's the kind of cool thing about the peak TV era is that if you want, like you can find something that's dialed in completely to you. It may not be good, but it definitely was made for you. Chris, before we get into any of that and a little bit of Hollywood insider, Hollywood fixer that I think we should give to the people, I got to say, we've been running kind of a kitchen cabinet between us, a secret behind the scenes conversation.

Kind of like a task force, yeah. If you will, may or may not disband it after this. Might change my mind. And I kind of wanted to give you a temperature update. I know taking temperature is kind of a loaded term these days. But we've been trying to time it, because as we alluded to the other week, like, two, three times a week, you will get a text from me at like 8.30 a.m. That is the equivalent of the Kool-Aid man bursting into your telephone with, like, funny links, a couple hot takes, maybe some updates on some people that we used to know. I really wish we could give people an episode of the podcast that is coming off of your jogger high. That's what I wanted to tell you, because I thought that this lined up pretty perfectly. because I was really like run down. I was tired yesterday.

Woke up early today. Did a nice, concise seven-miler. And then I was like, let's go. This is going to be the best podcast we've ever done. And then I actually got to live out something that I feel like many people who are fortunate enough to go out of their homes for exercise at this particular moment in time, probably you're familiar with,

which is when the unstoppable first. force of my jacked up adrenalineized exuberance runs in to the immovable buzzsaw of how absolutely shit the world is because I am

a cadaver right now. It is 3 p.m. in the West Coast six hours ago I was fucking Billy crude up on the roof and almost famous. Yeah. It is every day is a speedball. It's really, really something.

And so I say this only to just let people know what we've been talking about, but I guess just to say, like, I assume there's some universality to this. It's not just you. It's everybody. This is it. But luckily, we can pivot and talk about TV comedy with each other and hopefully with our friends, our listeners for 45 minutes or so every couple days. Yeah, I don't know.

People who, I don't know if they're going to make a video out of this pod, but right now you can see I'm wearing these calls. never run, baby, these German colors. Because I'm wearing a t-shirt of the German flag. Because when I woke up this morning, my girl, Angola, came through and is bringing the Bundesliga back on May 16th. And I immediately fired up Duolingo to start sharpening my ick bins and all that stuff. Because I was so excited about the prospect of watching like Shalko versus Dortmund.

Shout out to everybody who's about to become an expert overnight on German. soccer. And I was like, jacked. And this is, this happens like every, every, honestly, every time we pod is because we pod at three o'clock PST. Yeah. And I start out the morning and I usually get super fired up about something. And I'm just like, the, the pistons are firing. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to just drop takes. And then I sit in a just slightly too warm room with a computer on my lap for six hours. And then we podcast. And it just comes out as word spaghetti sometimes. but, you know, I love seeing your face. I imagine everything you just said,

but with a too warm child, who doesn't want to be there either. Yeah. The child book pro. Let me say, I am also absurdly excited for the Bundesliga. Like the thought of watching a soccer match, which is not something I usually make time to do,

feel so exhilarating that, you know, again, not to make this just text time confidential, but it did cause me to check in with you and just ask, you know, which German professional team has the least bad history with the Jews? Just like, you know, ballpark it for me. Like, who were the good Germans

from the Steven Soderberg film, The Good German? That's my team. Do you understand? Like, even if it is the... And what I said to you was a lot like the characters of normal people, I just can't commit to an answer.

What I want to say is, if the team you give me is the soccer equivalent of the country club and the Poconos that was just like, look, it's nothing personal, but you can't come in here, fine. I will watch your team. If that is the least bad scenario for my fandom at this moment, I'll take it. We'll find a team for you. I think you seem like a Dortmund guy, honestly. Yeah, but didn't you say that was just for like flash and hipsters? Yeah, but that's the thing that's going to be weird about when the German League comes back is part of the attraction of that of that league. It's a great league. It's really exciting. They do really like, it's really high octane football. It's not like pass it around and and tactically kind of play chess.

This Spain slander will not stand. No, but Spain's very technically proficient. Italy is very tactically like sort of mindful and like everything is sort of. But also aren't all the Italian teams just like slush funds or burlesconi cronies? Like isn't it just total corruption? It's still corrupt. That's for the zero zero zero pod. What I'm so excited about is this can be like your top chef, right? Like I could just blunder into some new takes.

That's right. About something that I'd even no idea what percentage of our audience is interested in this. But like, just tell me where Dortmund is and I'll go. That's fine. I think it is, it's the black force. I think it's in the Rurr Valley, if I'm correct. I've never been to Germany. Boy, what was I going to say?

Real confidence. Part of the reason why it's a little bittersweet that it's coming back is that the sort of the attractions of watching German football is that like the crowds are so amazing. You know, and then they they really know how to treat crowds there where it's like pretty open access, pretty inexpensive season tickets. Stadium's full of Germans yelling is just something that I innately am really excited about. Like, that just has always gone well. So,

all right. Before we get to normal people, I think you and I wanted to talk a little bit about Space Force, right? Okay. So for people who don't know, there's a new Greg Daniels comedy coming to streaming later this month. Not to be confused with a new Greg Daniels comedy that came to streaming last month.

This is actually in and of itself, kind of an interesting little time capsule of how streaming TV worked over the last couple of years, where Greg Daniels, who created the American version of the office, co-created Parks and Recreation with Mike Schur, comedy, I mean, I guess you can say TV comedy legend at this point. He was also famously Conan O'Brien's roommate back in college, long and very distinguished career.

He was developing a show called Upload for HBO under the previous HBO regime with Michael Lombardo. When he left, the show was turned around. We were under that regime. We were victims of that regime change. as well. I think we're the headline there. I mean, it's unbelievable that guy lost his job when he bet on such winning horses. Us and boardwalk empire. We were kind of the Dortmund of Lombardo's own personal Bundesliga. We got relegated, not going to lie. Anyway, that ended up being picked up by Amazon. A pilot was shot and then a series was shot. And basically a very, very slow process

led to it finally being released on Amazon last month. Haven't checked it out yet, I will, because the wonderful and kind and brilliant Allegra Edwards from my show Breyer Patch is on it. But then that was really slow. In comparison, our president makes comment about sending people back into space within a week.

Netflix is like, we're making a whole show based on that. So that was the timing? It wasn't a joke that became reality. It was a reality that became a joke. I believe so. I was unclear as to whether or not they had already talked about doing that. And then Trump actually was like, you know, what would be funny?

Oh, I guess you never know, which speaks really, you know, that suggests really good things for my spec scripts, bleach injectors, which I've been slaving over for two years, ripped from the headlines. And anyway, all of a sudden, it's set up Space Force with Steve Carell coming back to comedy, working with Greg Daniels again, coming to Netflix. I have to say, we may have said this actually when the show was. first announced if we covered it, kind of didn't think this was real, kind of thought this was a press release. I did not think they would actually find time, because in the middle of this, Steve Carell is joining the morning show and continuing his film career. And I just figured it would fall between the cracks and never get made. But secretly, they just banged out a season of this, and it's premiering later this month. So the trailer dropped. Pretty stellar long list, long cast.

I don't know what do you call a cast that like there's the headline and then it just keeps going. Ensemble? That's, I would call that, but I just mean like it goes deep. A deep bench. Very good bench, yeah. So it's not just Steve Carell. It has John Malkovich in it. It has Diana Silvers who is really, really good in Booksmart.

And then it just has like the HBO Repertory All-Stars, right? Like Jimmy O'Yang and Dan Baccaradall from, Jimmy O'Yang from Silicon Valley and Dan Baccaroll from Veep and Roy. Roy Williams from The Daily Show and just funny people up and down. I thought the trailer looked pretty good. I mean, anytime Corel walks into a comedy, he's carrying Michael Scott with him. But this seemed pretty engaging and entertaining to me.

But I think to you, it raised a broader question about the state of comedies on television, which I would like to get into. Well, I was thinking about this specific idea because Parks and Rec did the reunion episode, which I actually haven't gotten a chance to see, but, you know, they brought people back together on Zoom to do a kind of, what was it like,

where are they now? No, it was amazing. You should watch it. It was basically what's happening right now. Like the characters were as we left them a few years ago. And for people who remember in the Parks and Rec finale, it gave us the trajectory of everyone's life 50 years into the future. So it kind of found the 2020 spot in there.

And then in the middle of a pandemic. that I have to say, Mike Schur and his gang did not predict in the actual finale. No, I know. They just skipped that. So it was a check-in at our moment in the middle of their fictional trajectory. So I was thinking about parks and to some extent the American office and also Avenue 5, which was the HBO show that came on a couple months ago with Hugh Lorry that came from Armando Yanucci.

And I think that a lot of people really wanted to love that show. And part of it was the Vip of it all that carrying that. that kind of heritage of Yanucci's past TV work into it. I think maybe people went into it with somewhat unfair expectations, but I also think that the show suggested that that was what we were in for, was that kind of dark, improvisatory feeling comedy. And it wound up being something kind of cast in the middle of a straightforward comedy,

but also with some really good dark heart, scabrous lines, but also with a bit of drama. And I wonder whether that's going to be the case with Space Force. I haven't watched any of the screeners yet. But even within the trailer, I feel like you can see a show that's... When you're doing shows like this, you kind of want to do it all, I bet. You know, I bet when you have somebody like Steve Krell, who's evolved since he's been on the office, part of you wants to do Michael Scott Redux.

Part of you wants to do a satire and a parody of our current political moment and something where it's like no idea is too crazy to work or too crazy to be implemented. And then there's also the idea of, well, we want people to like these characters. That was something that was a big thing for Leslie Nope, when Parks and Rec first came out. I think that first season, they did like a little bit of an adjustment, if I'm right about on the Leslie character

where she was too grading and two in people's faces and two agro almost. And then they kind of dialed her back to be a little bit more goofy. With this sort of phenomenon of limited series and getting these huge stars to do smaller commitments, you know,

I don't know if they have time to make those adjustments. So I'll be really curious to see Space Force because they've pretty much, it's got to be what it is when it comes out. They're not going to be able to make any audibles. It's interesting. Your point is very well made, and I agree with you. I would take it a step further and say,

I don't think comedy really knows what to do with our serialized streaming prestige moment. It feels a little lost to me. There are elements at play here. Maybe you can help me synthesize this. There are elements of the comedies that have been coming out, that I feel fall victim to the blockbuster syndrome that we've talked about with dramas as well, which is like everything has to be the biggest idea possible.

Yeah, really high concept. Or else it's not going to get made. And so you see, you know, that's Avenue 5, that's Space Force. That's upload too, I think. And that puts a lot of pressure on comedies, which maybe just want to make you laugh a little bit, right? There's also the serialized nature of it, that it has to accumulate. It has to build to something. And it's funny that we're talking about Parks and Rec in reference to this.

Because at the time, I think one of the truly brilliant things about Parks and Rec was that Mike Scher was applying a mindset he saw and admired in the wire to what was essentially pitched as a standard at that time, mockumentary NBC Thursday night comedy in that the story always was moving forward. The episodes, you could watch them out of order, but the seasons you couldn't because change was a constant. And it was really brilliant. It was kind of groundbreaking at the time. Now when it's come back, and obviously it's a one-off, but what struck me about it and what I truly loved about it was it's just old soul, deep comedy bones. And it was really exposed by the Zoom nature of it. It was set up punchline, set up punchline between characters whose relationships are also themselves kind of archetypes,

whether it's Leslie and Ron, it's high status, it's low status. just joke writing, basically. And you could really feel it because, you know, obviously if the camera is moving around characters acting, also you don't maybe don't notice the bones as much or the strings as much. But in this case, you could. And I thought it was so much the better for it. The idea that everything has to be the biggest concept ever has to have a deep bench of 20 people competing for the joke like Veep did. Or has to have that kind of manic, oh yeah, yeah, I'll say it, energy that our pal Jason Manzuka is the best at. But that sort of improvy, apatovian sentiment that is kind of infected comedy to a degree,

what you're missing, I think, is just like character work and just good joke writing. Which is not to say that these shows don't have it. But sorry, the end of the monologue for me is just I started checking out the Mindy Kaling show, never have I ever on Netflix. I think it's good. Guys, TV concierge over here. I think it might be good. But what really struck me was that in order to confirm that it's good, I really felt the need to push past the pilot.

There was nothing wrong with a pilot. In fact, it was a pretty exemplary pilot for the year 2020, but it was such a pilot. It was such a 2020 pilot because it crammed all this backstory and premise building, the kind of stuff that you would be hard pressed to parse in an hour-long drama pilot. you know, this character is born. She moves to a town. Her father dies. She reacts to her father dying.

She has an intense psychological reaction to her father dying. He's in a wheelchair for a year. These are her friends. John McEnroe is narrating her life. Exhale. Oh, now it's going to be a family sitcom. Good. Be a family sitcom.

I wonder how many of these, because you mentioned upload Securities Rout to Amazon. And, you know, one of the shows that, what's one of our favorite shows of the years, High Fidelity, which started out as a Disney Plus show, but then moved over to Hulu after the merger and probably all the better for it because it was allowed to be what it wanted to be. But I think even in that show, you can kind of feel the early episodes of High Fidelity, specifically the first episode, feels a lot different than the last four or five episodes of that show, right? Like they definitely found the character. We've been talking about this unintentionally for a couple of weeks now because we've been talking about What happens when you get to spend so many seasons with people, whether you're talking about homeland or top chef? But in these limited engagements that are becoming more and more the norm, not only do you have to do all the work that you're talking about, all the heavy lifting of a pilot, and especially all the heavy lifting that comes with, this was what I pitched in the room as what the reason to make this show is because it hits checks all these boxes. Then you have to get into that midstream. We found our voice. Everybody's loose now. And it's still in the first season.

You don't get the third season, the fourth season of, oh, shit, they really figured out what's funny on this show. I mean, the same thing happened to Veep. Veep definitely changed over the years within the I Anucci years before David Mandel took over. I totally agree. And, you know, that was my experience in one season of Briar Patch. Like, I felt things click into place around episode eight, kind of seven, but mostly eight. and the only way to get there, the only way to get there was to go through it.

The only way to get there was to, obviously, my learning curve was really high and I was learning a lot. But the only way to get there was also to work with the writers and try stuff and see how it was actually translating to performance and to camera and literally finding the voice. And you have to do that stuff. I mean, I was like, let's try an action episode. Let's try a kitchen sink drama episode.

Can we do those things? Yeah, we can. we can, but that's not where our bread and butter is. What is our bread? But we don't know until you finally get there. And I think that that is absolutely, to your point, that's absolutely something that is at risk of being lost in this current climate. And I'll just to bring it all the way back to contemporary relevance, we are in greater risk of losing that. Because, you know, we're talking in early May 2020, legitimately have no idea when anything or how anything is ever going to be filmed again, but take that giant bummer bomb and slide it away, if and when things do happen again,

there is going to be a much, much stronger focus on communicating everything that something is before you start, keeping it tight, which is not a bad thing. But my senses from talking to people and from my own, you know, non-podcast work, a six-episode pitch is going to have a lot more receptive of an audience than a 10-episode pitch. I was just going to ask, I mean, like, I can imagine, it's hard to imagine them doing like Gray's Anatomy the way they do it. Even though they shoot it here in LA and stuff like that, maybe a better example would be sadly something like Better Call Saul. I'm sure that they will finish what is apparently going to be a 13 episode last season of Better Call Saul and I'll shoot

it in Albuquerque, no doubt. But if they have to institute certain checks and balances in television production in the same way that they are talking, again, to bring it full circle, to the German soccer leave, if they have to bring the same sort of precautions in that they are talking about bringing in with sports, whether that's isolation, two we can force quarantines before production can start or before sports can start,

being separated from families for extended periods of time, meaning no jetting back and forth between L.A. and Albuquerque while you're shooting, for instance. I wonder whether or not you start seeing production happening either in smaller blocks. So, hey, we're going to do a couple of months

then we're going to break and you guys can all, and then we'll come back, and then we'll come back and then we'll come back, or whether the future is something closer to what you're saying, which is seasons of five or six episodes, seasons of three episodes like they do in England sometimes, and much less regimented,

okay, we break down and then we come back in the fall. It could be much more like Sherlock, where it's like, we break down, and then we're glad people like it. We'll do another one when the schedules clear up. Now, that said, there is a nimbleness built into that model that I'm actually a fan of. You know, tell the story that you want to tell

and nothing more, a version of it where, as you said, you do a three-episode season, followed by a six-episode season, followed by a movie, and then maybe get back to you. I mean, story coming when story's ready to come and when you have the full thing ready to go, that sounds pretty appealing to me, and it actually sounds a lot more fiscally prudent for the studios who are deeply hurting, like everyone, and will be hurting for the foreseeable future. It also does seem to be more in line with the way actors and the willingness of A-list and big-ticket actors to do TV has disrupted the medium. You know, nothing, the two tenants, right, of TV in the last 10 years is everyone will do TV for a price or for the right material and nothing is ever over. Sure.

And both of those things were absolutely like inviolate rules. Those were just like, those are the two things you knew about TV that were bedrock prior to 10 years. ago say movie stars don't do TV and when things get canceled they are done right all that's out the window now yeah so that there's something potentially positive in there but I do think in the spirit of the conversation we were having finding it you know finding it out there on the pitch shout to my dormant homie's been a fan for a while now that may be going that may be going away and so you may end up with more things like Avenue 5, which does that get a second season in this post-pandemic fiscal world? I don't know. The first season was pretty not good, he said politically. And yet

it kind of got a classic HBO, we don't admit mistakes. We just push through them. Sure. Rubber stamp for a second season. And maybe it'll be good because of what we're talking about because it found itself, or at least maybe Armando Yanucci convinced HBO that he had found it. But, you know, We'll see. There are so many secondary questions that come out of this conversation, we should probably save it for a larger talk about the state of production. I was thinking about whether or not we'll see more things like the commitment HBO made to vice principals, where they're like, let's do two seasons shot together and release them over the course of two years, you know, or whether or not we'll see what kind of impact does the more a la carte production style that you're talking about? What does that have on the people who, what kind of impact does that have on people who rely on, I know for nine months of the year I work on network sitcom X, you know? I mean, there has been one of the reasons why there's been so much unrest, for example, with the Writers Guild of which I'm a proud member, you know, the fact that we broke with our agents, the big four agencies are still not in compliance. And so many of us don't have agents and haven't for over a year now. Why there had been.

talk, very serious talk about a potential writer's strike that's now being delayed, you know, they've been punting on the date of when that deal with the producers expire for obvious global reasons. But one of the reasons why that unrest exists is because the very definition of what it means to be a working writer has changed so radically from, you know, a lot of the things that were in place, the minimums that you could be paid, et cetera, et cetera, were based on the idea that if you were working on a TV show, you were working for 10 months of the year, 20 episodes. Now to have a, you know, make a living, many writers, certainly lower level writers, have to jump from project to project to project. And it is literally like Frogger.

I mean, there is no, you have no guarantee what's... Three weeks on this, nine weeks on that, six weeks on this. Or five months and then absolutely nothing for a year and a half because the thing, timing didn't line up or because the thing that you worked on, it hasn't aired yet and you don't know what it's worth. And then the other thing is when productions could hold you, you know, you worked on it for three months and they have the first position for you for a second season, but they're not going to make that decision for a year. So you can't work. So the money you got paid has to stretch over a much longer period of time. Also, residuals, you make a show for Netflix. That was the one sale that show will ever make for the rest of its life. Right. It's not going to

show up on Channel 17. So that potential income is now cut off completely. So anyway, that was a big preamble just to say that that kind of instability had already started to take root in all corners of the business where, you know, people that I worked with on Briar Patch had been working on, I'm trying to think like daybreak, a Netflix show that was, that had been working there. Some of them were picking up extra hours on Better Call Saul, which had run over. It's what had, what had, what, how long they thought they'd been working there. They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, it is a, it is a total hustle. And Nobody knows. I mean, when we all were a little more optimistic,

for no good reason other than our own sanity. I think when this first started in March, people I was talking to on Cruise were like, boy, is it going to be crazy when they flip a switch. Yeah, right. And everybody goes back to work at once. And everybody is like, I need the best line producer.

And then the 11 good line producers are like, well, we're busy. I think that was a very optimistic scenario. Obviously, there is no, as we learned, there is no switch. Well, that's all stuff we don't know. So why don't we stick with what we do know? we know how we feel about normal people.

Yeah. Finish the show in a race to the finish. I had been trying to squeeze it out to kind of like savor it. You know what I mean? This is definitely a show that even though a lot of the episodes are 33 minutes or 25 minutes are just these kind of amuse-booshes

in some ways. You kind of want to live in that world for as long as possible. That being said, and this is where we'll start getting into spoiler. So if you haven't finished normal people yet, just save this conversation for when you did. Things take a turn in the second half of this show. Not to say that the first half is like all sunshine and lollipobbs, but it is definitely a different show in the second half, right? Yes. And I think that my affection for the show,

which has not dimmed or changed. I was just, I loved watching it, really impressed by it. Um, amount, some percentage of my affection for the show shifted from the story, which, you know, which I recognized in almost entirely from the book, to the storytelling. Because I think they did a very, very artful and delicate job kind of elighting parts that never worked for me on the page. And I think I still, I think still kind of struggle. Well, you can be specific. What were you talking about? Um, some of the, I mean, why? Why? does Connell just go home to Sligo for the summer and never tell Marianne? In the book that's, you know, you're kind of in his head, so you're kind of a little more in touch with his

terror and discomfort at anytime anyone loves him or needs him. And also his deep class insecurities, which play a larger part, I think, in his psychology in the book and really only come out when they're reading ice cream in Italy in this book. It's still kind of inexplicable. It just, it's one of those things that happens in rom-coms, although it wasn't a calm moment. you know, a roadblock. Yeah. I think everything that happens in Sweden is obviously a tough hang

and it's just kind of even the tweaks they made in the storytelling and we can get into that. That was the weakest episode I thought by far. Beautiful to look at. You're not Team Lucas then. I mean, it's funny that we're going to start

our conversation about a show we loved with some nits to pick. But I would say... We've also done two podcasts about how good this show is. I'm not really even picking any nits. So this is actually a pretty instructional conversation because I have not read the book. So I thought that the way that they handled the moment where he does not ask her if he could live with her for the summer was one of the best examples of how well they made this show. Because they do show her memory of that moment

being different than his. And the constant kind of shuffling back and forth between six weeks later, six weeks earlier, this moment from my perspective. They don't do it. They don't overdo it. It's not like a zero-zero-zero thing where it's stopped short

and then it's her perspective. But there are these subtle little shifts where it'll be like, she thought he said, I guess we should see other people. And he thought they said, he thought he said, I suppose you'll want to see other people.

and it's that small difference. Whatever the actual line is, that's essentially the meaning. I thought that the way that they did that was wonderful. Yeah, I thought that, again, I thought that was a way that they kind of dodge something that was a little, a little, far-fetched is the wrong word. Let me take a step back and say the thing that I really, my main takeaway from watching the whole series, and I think it speaks to the point you're making here. Because the moment you're talking about, once it became a he said, she said, and everyone rushing to assume something about the other person, and they're just that deep sort of discomfort of like wanting to just be in someone's head but not

being able to. And it's youth, right? Like, not just saying what you mean. Like, it's young. It's young behavior. And it's absolutely appropriate for these slightly not normal in a good way, in a healthy way, young people. They're young.

And what I kind of secretly loved most about this show is that it, When stripped away from the book, and this isn't a spoiler for the book, this is kind of Sally Rooney's thing, she writes in this very affectless, matter-of-fact, almost harsh light of a harsh light, no-filter, cell phone cam, documentary style, where things that are both exceptional and banal are kind of flattened into an I-M window. She's absolutely, I mean, she was 29, I think, when she wrote the book, she's not much older than that now, there's something that strikes me as extremely online about the way that she writes. And I think some of the writing about her and about her books have really

focused on her own style and her age and her perspective as that, you know, as being the, as being the third rail of what makes this really compelling literature. Okay. When you remove that, it's a fucking YA romance. Yeah. And that. And that. That's great. And it's so low-key impressive that Lenny Abramson, Rooney herself, Alice Birch, all the people who worked on the show were cool with that. If you took away the trappings of it, this was a big, lusty, emotional, horny as fuck romance. Yes. And once it became that, not like world-weary commentary on the jaded nature of today's post-millennials and was just like, these guys are kind of fuck-ups, but they really love boning each other and maybe more.

It exploded into something kind of beautiful and true in what it was. And so all of that was my long, long headline way of saying, that's what bought that moment for me. Yeah, I think that the commodification of genre can be a dangerous thing in that regard. So it's like there's a difference between Y.A. and something that's about young adults. Yes. And that's what this was. It was about people at that very specific point in their life. Like Connell has that great line where he talks about walking around, trying on a hundred different versions of himself, which is a really great encapsulation of how people tend to feel. And that ages from like 18 to 22, 23, sometimes older, sometimes younger. I thought it really grabbed on to the passive aggressive self-destructive habits that people have at that time because you do have that feeling. like, you're kind of aware that you're, you know in the moment, I think, for a lot of people

that this is your one time to be this person, to be like this, and to take an Erasmus scholarship to Sweden or, you know, travel Europe or go to New York as we see at the end of the, at the end of the series. And that can be pretty destructive to things that in retrospect, you'll be like, why did I do that? Because I'll fucking tell you this. You want to it drives me crazy? I did major in creative writing. It's not worth it. It's like you can totally just read. It's fine. They've got these great classes online. Do a TED talk. You don't have to leave the love of your life to go to an MFA program. I love. You know, that's the kind of, that's a cut to six months later when Connell is in a writing seminar and some guy is like, here's my vampire short story,

you're going to fucking wish you were with Marianne, dude. I can tell you that. Also, I mean, I respect the show for truly for telling us and not showing us that he is the new Frank O'Hara. Because any time show is like, this guy's a brilliant young writer, I'm like, fuck off. Yeah. Come on. Come on. He's 22. I can't wait for that first collection of bag and groceries in Sligo and other stories to drop.

I'll be breaking Rona Quar just to go out to Skylight to cop that. So you think they made a mistake. I mean, what I think is it felt a little arbitrary that we started with that moment of him leaving in episode six, I think it is to go home for the summer. But it's actually, or episode five or six, but it's actually quite appropriate. Because if you look at the season as a journey, the journey is one towards a more mutually respectful, honest, affectionate in all ways, relationship between two people. who have been crucial in each other's lives and got each other through a transition from one part of life to another. And so they actually say to each other, and this was a crucial difference that they did in the show. In the book, it's like page 306, Connell's like, right, got into the New York

program then. Got to be honest with you. To go into New York. And she's like, oh, so you'll be going then. He's like, tanks. And then it's like end of waiting for Godo. It's just like, so you'll be going. I might be going. You can fire up the mic for this one because I need to get a third opinion here. Do you think Andy and I should start a Patreon where it's just me and him playing both parts of normal people? And we are just like kind of just doing the lines and then maybe adding some like what we wish they had said stuff. Yes, absolutely. I would pay top dollar for that.

Thanks for that. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for being honest. Kyya, that's grand. Thanks. So, but in the. in the show.

Oh, Kaya McMullen. That's an Irish name, isn't it? MacMullen? Oh, thanks for that, Kaya. I think I'll be leaving now.

If we're being honest, I think we both know you don't want you to leave. If I'm being honest. If I'm being honest, I want an ice cream. Do you want an ice cream? I'll just run and get you one.

Oh, yeah. The second half of me, my football is coming on. So I'm just going to get an ice cream before the second half comes on. If we're being honest, I didn't know there was a match on. Do you think anyone

from normal people will ever come on this show? show now that we've been like this. You're the fucking... Who were you planning on inviting? The Cougar teacher? I'll tell you who. Who he snogs in front of a chippy?

Come on. I want Jamie Prince of Cucks to come on this show. Let me just finish my other thought before we get into that. Just to say, one major difference between the book and the show is that the book is just like, so I'll be leaving then. Will you? All right, thanks. In the show, it's an artist rendition.

In the show, they spread that out over the course of that last episode. So they're living with it, thinking about it, and it feels like a more mature, organic conversation and discussion and potentially a more mature ending point for this, whatever this is, whether they remain in each other's lives or not. Now, so it's a beautiful journey, and I loved it very much. Now, you want to talk about the real deal. I want to ask you. So people have already started talking about whether there should be a second season.

And I think that the Connell and Marianne story has come to such a beautiful, beautiful ellipsis. But here's what I want. I want normal people season two, Peggy and Jamie. Wow. That is dark. Rolling around Western Europe being a bunch of fucking assholes. Do you want, should we get Sudakis and Whig to play them like they did for 10 years on Saturday Night Live? Like, is that?

Is that the best case scenario here? Is Jamie the best villain since Hannibal Lecter? What I want to know is, and this is, I don't want to question the decisions they made because the show is generally like really well cast and really well made. Were they a little bit scared before they launched the show? Were they a little bit concerned about powering 12, the powering the engine of a 12 episode show solely with the white hot bone yard chemistry of its two leads.

Did they hesitate? And what I mean by that is, were they not convinced that that Paul Meskell and Daisy Edgar Jones were the shit, which they are? And is that why they cast these fucking dipshits as their alts? Because I want you to help me make the list of who. else they were considering for the roles of the other boyfriends. Were they the guys who stand in front of like schools saying, do you have a moment to talk to me about the planet? Like, were those some of the potential people? Were they the people who like, it's the people who call, uh, during NBA playoff

games. Yes. Asking if you have time to talk about like a congressman's race outside of your district. Is it, was it either the actor who played Jamie or the guy in my neighborhood who owns an air horn? Like, was it 50-50? Yeah. Like, did they ever consider? It was the guy who got the part and Tom Coughlin. Was it like, do you think they sat around a pub?

Maybe a pub. And were they like, should we cast someone you want to punch? all the time or someone you maybe don't want to punch and they went with a person

you want to punch all the time thanks if we're being honest that was the biggest Achilles

he held a show where like Connell walks into a room and he goes literally he quotes the audience with his eyes

and what his eyes are saying is this fucking guy for all of them yeah I got a bit though I was pretty

into Peggy you know what Peggy is Peggy's fun Peggy's a good hang. She seems like a fun hang. Peggy likes to have a good time. This does speak to... I mean, I would go as far as to say this is like a nine and a half at a ten show. I just loved it so much.

I'm sorry that we're done with it. I'm sorry that it's over. Do you want to talk about some of your favorite episodes? Because I did have a note on the sort of desire people seem to have for more of it. Yeah. I mean, I think that the early episodes in particular were just so breathless in all senses that they were really wonderful. Yeah, the two, three episode run of them at Trinity that first year is, it's not surprising that later in the season, Connell says that might have been the first time I was ever happy in my life.

If for being honest. If for being honest. Grand, thanks. He, I think that the show itself, in retrospect, reaches like kind of maximum velocity at that point. Yeah. When they get back together for that first time after the party, you know, that, etc. But I think that, you know, in the manner of all great longer serialized shows, longer season, not obviously not longer in terms of seasons, that early stuff that's very breathless and hot and fun earns you the scene where they are watching the football match in his

childhood bedroom and it's really hot and they're just there. And you're like, this is what their relationship is, and you can't have that unless you have the first part. I want to shout out the Connell Breakdown episode. Paul Maskell's the real deal, man. Yeah. No, I know. That dude is the new dude. Like, I just breathlessly checked his IMDB page to be like, who's jumped on this train first? Like, what's he going to do? Is he like an extraction too? Like, what's he doing next? Thankfully, no. It looks like he just went straight to doing a Martin McDonner revival. in Dublin. When we talked the other day,

I was saying, like, look, on some level, it's a brilliant performance already, you could tell. But I wasn't ready to be like, this guy is the next great actor because it was a very physical performance and it was a very charismatic performance,

which is not a small thing, but I was like, I wonder what's underneath that. And then to be able to be that facade and then to crack yourself open the way he does in a non-showy, in an absolutely, like, lived in emotionally, true way. It was really breathtaking, and it really caused me to really learn to appreciate and notice all the small details and all the small, again, it's not tricks, they're tools that an actor

uses to build a character. The little noises he makes, like he's, he carries himself like he is a helium balloon and he's can't tie the knot. These little like exhalations he makes when like, when he's trying to, he takes a hit, but he can't verbalize what it's done to him. Like the tension between his internal monologue versus what he's actually capable of expressing to people is so, like, violent almost that that's like the little like the shards of things that come out. Partly because of the nature of the show and because it's so focused on its leads, like, this is that rare thing where I'm like, these are fully realized movie star performances

by both of them because they got to play everything. and the camera was on them to transition between those things in a way that you could, you know, like let's, for example, this is a totally unrelated show like Succession. We can correctly, you know, talk about Jeremy Strong or Brian Cox or individually talk about them. But if you think about their scenes over the season,

there's a couple scenes here and here and here and here and here and here. And you kind of call the bringing them all together into one totem that you can hold up in front of award shows that we do that work. this show did that. It was that. That's what what powered the show in a way that was really breathtaking. Yeah, I was going to say also, I really enjoyed while the last few episodes are obviously much darker once she goes, once they leave Italy, you know, it takes a turn. I thought that the way that they depicted how these two stayed in touch was really beautiful.

Oh, God. Yeah, I love that. The voiceovers of emails and occasional text messages, Skype calls. it was a matter-of-fact usage of technology and platforms and modes of communication without making it be like text bubble showing up on the screen while I'm walking through Madewell like you know it was it was like so subtle and so earned and you but you did get the sense that because they were communicating in that fashion and maybe not seeing each other as much but they were still staying in each other's lives that they still belong to one another And that was, it was really, really beautiful. And I thought ultimately the way the show went about expressing that these are two people who mean too much to each other to let go, but almost any variation on how they are together, whether it's as friends while they're seeing other people or as lovers while they are trying to figure out who they are, like that doesn't work.

It's actually, it just doesn't work because they're 22 or whatever they are. They're not done figuring out who they are as individuals, but they can't kind of go through life without one another. I just thought it was heartbreaking, man. It was just so beautiful to watch. Where did you net out on Marianne in general? Because one thing that's interesting to me is, again, I think Daisy Edgar Jones is phenomenal.

I love her performance. I think she's really... I mean, that's the other thing. So exciting, you see two potential stars, born, you know, over the course of 12 episodes. Can't wait to see what she does next. I do think that this became Connell's show in a way that surprised me. And I'm trying to figure out why that is.

And, you know, whether that's because he had, because he's just that great of an actor, which is partly it. But I, I mean, I think you can make an argument that the things that, some of the things that Connell goes through are, are frankly a little bit more normative. I mean, I think that the... Can you imagine a show called normative people? But the second... What Daisy puts her...

Sorry, what Marianne puts herself through is not something that a lot of people necessarily even copped to having experience with. And that kind of... I mean, I think a lot of people understand the idea of putting yourself through pain to sort of regulate how you're feeling on the inside.

But yeah, I think that also... I'd be curious to know about the difference between the book and the movie or the book and the show here because I did feel like, did you think that the depiction of her childhood or at least your youth set up her need for people like Jamie and Lucas in her life? You know, what's missing from it, and again, this is one of the things that happens when you take it from the subjective POV that the book is written in and make it this. you lose the inner voice and so you don't hear the constant drumbeat of how she talks about herself and how she thinks about herself so that when you get a point

when Connell says that it would be weird to him for him to hit her and all she hears is being him saying that she's weird which is what the voice in her head has been saying about herself that moment is dulled a little bit on the show because we haven't been prepped for it to the same degree.

There's an interesting piece that I read on the cut that basically was like Marianne is sort of is the failure of the show referencing the way the character is created in the book which is in some ways whether it's through Connell's

behavior, the voices of the other people at the school, Marianne's own voice but there is a constant reinforcing of the idea that she is not conventionally beautiful or attractive certainly not in the opening parts when she's in high school which allows the moment when he sees her

Trinity and she's like classic me, I went to college and got beautiful. And you're like, you got bangs? Like you look, you look the same. You look great. Part of that is Hollywoodie, or in this case, Londony, I guess, film industry. That's just what happens. But there's also just some stuff about like, just little things. Like she just acts in a, there's an erratic streak in her behavior that isn't limited to choosing absolute dipshits for boyfriends, you know? Right. Which I know we both want to go back to and just talk about Jamie for another hour. But because of that, I found, I felt like her highs and her lows weren't comparable to Connell's highs and lows. And it was just, I guess I just want to, I haven't

really figured out where I'm at with it yet. I finished the book thinking it was even, so to speak, if not trending a little bit more towards Marianne's story. Yeah. And I finished the show being like, boy, Connell has really made a journey and now he's off to New York to probably drink drinks a bunch of pints at Scratcher. Yeah, we'll be at Dadio with him in 2000.

Oh, RIP Daddy-O. I do think that there's an interesting conversation there about, you know, we don't have to have it right now, but like, can you have a show where two characters get equal footing like that? We see, I feel like with Connell, it was like I was on the

inside looking out and with Marianne, I was on the outside looking at. Kaya, did you feel that way with this? With the episode that you've seen so far, and you've watched it. I'm just curious if, like, if this is just me and Andy or if you agree that, like, there's a degree to which you can't quite know Marianne totally. And, Kaya, before you answer, this is a really good test study because the three of us are identical in all ways. Absolutely.

So I feel like... Especially generationally. You know, like, yeah. Generation, gender. It's perfect. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think probably Connell seems like to be the more nuanced character and has more layers to him than her.

And I don't know if that's just a difference in like the acting skills. But with Marianne, yeah, you definitely don't see the same like inner struggle that she deals with in the book. And like her feeling fundamentally unlovable in the book, I don't think that's reflected on her TV character. Yeah, it's more like, it's like show don't tell in the, in the, I think it's more tell don't show in the, in the show, which even so, I'm still like, Marianne is an incredible character. Yeah. But I do wonder whether it's like, you have to rely on, on Daisy Edgar Jones saying, I'm unlovable, even though like the whole world is like, you're pretty lovable.

It's also, and also all credit, it will all blame for that, but also all credit, dude, this is like the best costumed show I can remember seeing in forever. Like every choice for every character tells you so much about who they are, where they are in their lives, and everyone looks amazing, the right degree of amazing. But to your point, I think it goes to that idea I was trying to articulate before about how the show, normal people, just never fought its identity as a not big screen, a small screen romance. where one of the more, whereas one of the more interesting things about the book was whether it was explicit or just, you know, in internal monologues or behavior, both of these people struggled very, very deeply with self-love or love at all. And I think that's partly where the title comes from, right? That even the little moments like when Connell tells her he loves her after she says that her father had been violent, he recoils from that all the way to asking Rachel to Debs.

whereas tracking exactly that moment as why didn't really linger as much, you know, and the whole thing where she keeps saying, I would do absolutely anything if you asked me to do it, her taking that and putting it in his lap is here, it's there, but the through line of that isn't. And so one of the responses an audience member might have coming to a cold is these two smoke shows should be together all the time. Yeah. And so it's just a bunch of convention why they're not. And we love that convention.

But that could be a takeaway from the show as opposed to the more nuanced psychological exploration of why they can't be loved or why they can stay with each other. I think it's got to do with perspective because this is a show that's shot from so close up. Even though you have an incredible sense of place and gorgeous scenery in times, essentially this is a show that's like

the cameras are right up against these people's lives. And the more and more you pull back, the more and more you realize how conventionally unconventional they are. You know, just like everybody, they're fucked up just like everybody. but they're just essentially two young students. You know what I mean? They're just two people who kind of like came across one another early in their lives

and can't let go of one another. And I think that that's where the title really resonates for me is just this idea that you could lose Connell in a sea of people in New York. You know what I mean? He's not Brad Pitt in World War Z. He's not saving the world. He's probably going to be an average short story writer. If all the stats shake out, right, you know.

But what an incredible person to make the hero of a story. And the same thing goes for Marianne. What an incredible character to make the hero of a story. And I take it for being honest. Neither of us want the show to end. I think it's pretty obvious. Yeah. Andy, let's wrap it up there.

So we did all of normal people. And we've got my interview with Clark Duke coming up next. I'm not sure what we're going to hit on Monday. Top Chef, Baby, Restaurant Wars. I love that we're covering this show. Our dubs is coming. Okay, yeah, and we might have a special guest on Monday, so we're looking forward to that as well.

Can I also just let you know and our wonderful audience and listeners know that they won't be able to tell, but I plan to keep this Zoom call open so you and Kaya can just watch me take a nap. That would be a beautiful way to continue this. Do you get to take naps? No. I love that you found the most untrue thing. That's right. In something that was entirely made up. All right, man. Thanks so much. We will talk to you guys on one day. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Hey, tanks. Hey, thanks. Thanks, thanks. Clark, Duke, thanks for joining the watch, man. I was really excited to see Arkansas at South by, and obviously we didn't get a chance to do that.

So I was so excited when I knew that we were getting a chance to talk. Oh, man. Yeah, I was really excited to watch it at South by, too. It's such a bummer. I mean, you know, I've never got to watch it with an audience. So just like, that's kind of been the most fun of, you know, doing the press like the last few days is I just kind of keep asking all the people interview me, like, did you like the movie?

Like, what did you think? What did you think about the movie? It was kind of uncanny because it's one of those weird times where you see a movie and you feel like it's kind of been extracted from your brain because I feel like, not that you and I need to be best friends now, but I feel like I share a lot of the same sensibilities and taste of this movie. And I would assume with you, it's like, as soon as I see the Charles Porter's quote up on the screen, I'm like, oh, shit, here we go. Was that, I haven't gotten a chance to read the novel. Is that the quote in the beginning of the novel as well? No, no. That quote is not the beginning of the novel.

I'm just a Portis fan and Portis is also from Arkansas. Yeah. You know, just his influence kind of as a literary end film figure kind of looms over, you know, my taste in the movie in general. So I thought it was just a pretty great quote to put up there. I actually, to tell you the truth, I originally had this Morrissey quote. In the script, I had a Morrissey quote at the top. It was from that song, Sister, I'm a poet.

The quote was, I love the romance of crime and I wonder, does anybody feel the way I do and is evil just something you are, something you do. But Morrissey wanted like 30 grand for the quote, so. Can you charge for quotes like that? Apparently, yeah. Oh, man. Publishing rights, yeah, yeah. I should go back and erase some of the quotes from my old blogs.

Tell me a little bit about when you came across the Brandon book, because I know that this has been a labor of love for a really long time. And I was curious as to whether or not this was something that just immediately, as you were reading it, you started seeing in your head. Yeah, totally. I read the book when it came out like 10 years ago just because I was reading a lot. I still like to read a lot,

but I was reading a lot more at the time than I do now. And it was published through McSweeney's, which I was just kind of reading a lot of in general because their stuff was pretty generally great. And I was from Arkansas, so I saw the title and picked it up. Truly, you know, randomly, just like saw it in a store. Remember stores.

And, you know, just it was so much of what I loved, you know, it felt like, it felt like Charles Porters. It felt like Elmore Leonard. I mean, the dialogue was what initially grabbed me and I was like, oh, this is a movie because, you know, as an actor, like, you just, all you ever want to get sent is like a good role and good dialogue and good characters and this had all that in spades. Plus, you know, like I said, I'm from Arkansas. My grandfather was this kind of tertiary Dixie mob character, so I'd always want to write something about him in that world. But I never could really figure out like a way into it or what it was.

And then when I read the character, Frog that Vince Vaughn plays in the movie, I was like, this is sort of thematically getting after what I wanted to say and talk about anyway. Yeah, but like way more eloquently than I would have came up with with all this like awesome dialogue.

And I love the nonlinear structure. And the book does a different thing than the movie too, because in the book you don't find out that Frog and the Pondchup guy are the same person until the end when Kyle does. Right. And it's like you can't do that in a movie. so like it became this solution of okay well just like because it was like even if you don't say it

the fact that it's a big movie star playing the pawn shop guy like the audience is going to pretty quickly catch on like okay well this guy's probably frog which is fine because the realization I had was well now the audience is ahead of the characters and that's a fun place to be because now you're watching you know you're getting to watch these guys dig themselves in this hole yes and they think that they're like the newest things since cream cheese but in reality, they're just like about to hit it head on. Yeah, they're total idiots. And then another interesting thing that was kind of a byproduct of how long it did take to make the movie,

like since I bought the book rights 10 years ago, is the characters that Kyle and Swin kind of took on, they started to represent for me like kind of the millennial generation versus like Frog being this guy that came up in like the Reagan 80s, like build an empire like Gordon Gecko type of thing. And then, you know, just the whole thing like, I turned 35 on maybe fifth when the movie comes out. So, I mean, for people, you know, in my age group, I'm kind of at the tail end of the millennials. But you definitely get this kind of sense of malaise about just not feeling like there's a lot of economic options.

Like, Frog was trying to build this thing, and Kyle and Swin, it's never occurred to them. Like, not only were they at the bottom of the operation, they don't even really have any aspirations to get higher than that. And like, I'm not sure the movie would have had that interesting subtext if I got to make it immediately 10 years ago versus now because, you know, also the little town I'm from in Arkansas was built around a sawmill. So like, you know, when the recession happened 10 years ago and the housing market collapsed, the lumber mill closed down. So I kind of got to watch in slow motion over a decade, this little town kind of go to seed, you know, and like get like a meth problem basically and go from like middle class to kind of having a meth problem. and I saw like what it kind of did to guys me and my brother's age and I just thought there's and a lot of this is way more subtextual than it is sexual in the film but maybe that's the interesting byproduct of how long it took

or maybe that's just what I tell myself to like excuse the nightmare you know years long process of making an indie well I'm always curious about the active adaptation and whether or not especially when it's something like a first feature project like that like whether or not you're what you're subconsciously chasing like thematically and narratively when you're like okay in my mind I know I need to do this

I know I want to do this for you if it was it like it's going to be something and it wound up being Arkansas or was it I was sort of thinking about it and then Arkansas came along and I was like I have to do it I think it was a little of the latter like I knew I wanted to do something

like I said about that world and about that place and then when I saw this I was like oh, this is the vehicle for it. I mean, like I said, what he wrote was was way more eloquent than what I was going to come up with probably. I think it was just like the right, you know, me being struck by lightning basically, like,

finding the thing. It was the answer to what I've been looking for in a lot of ways. And so I was curious with, I know that this is obviously an independently finance movie. And I always always think about like the first album bands get to make and they just like pour everything into that. But you're

trying to balance a couple different things here. Obviously, you're making it on a budget. And you know, you have a specific story you're trying to tell. How hard is it to kind of pump the brakes ever and be like, it's okay? Like, I don't have to throw every idea I've ever had into the first movie. Yeah, I think I tried to pump most of

them in there. I mean, it is hard. It's hard because it's like, you know, a friend of mine that's a director told me like this crazy statistic and I forget what the exact numbers were, but he's like the percentage of directors that make a second movie is like, you know, three percent or something. Like some hilarious figures. So it's like there's definitely the back of your head you're going into it with like, all right,

I got to really just swing for the fences here. I kind of stylistically, I always thought the movie was a Western. Like I always like our kind of true north with the movie for myself and the cinematographer and what I did with the composer, Devendra Bonhart, was once upon a time in the West. I saw a lot of similarities between the relationship with the two guys and the girl to that movie. And to, like, Butch and Sundance a little bit, how she's kind of, like, clearly, like, loves both these guys. And, like, these two guys almost make one complete functioning person. And that was what I liked about their relationship.

So, you know, I always, I thought it was a Western thematically just when I read it. And I knew, like, stylistically, visually, I wanted to do it that way. Like, we shot an anamorphic just because it's a very, interior movie in a lot of ways, you know, like it's like, yes, it's set in Arkansas, but it's, it's not like a Terrence Malick thing where we're showing these big, beautiful, this, the shots of the South or anything like that. It's, it's, it's mostly a movie of people talking, and it's not a survey of like, the history of American crime in the South or anything. Sure. Yeah. It's just, it's just, it's a character piece. It's, um, so I wanted to give it a sense of scope and I thought I could

do that through the Western genre. I mean, specifically the spaghetti Western genre. So that was always like the thing we came back to is it's like all right how do we make this feel big and grand and like how do we make this story about these you know these four people feel feel like it has the huge stakes of casino or something i also think i also think like the fact that the movie covers so much ground over like 30 years time wise and and and physically you know like there's like 170 scenes in the movie or something bananas like that and there's a ton of locations and like That's the stuff that, you know, you were talking about, is there stuff for your first movie you would have, like, simplified or cut out? I wouldn't necessarily cut anything out, but I would have made it, I would have made the whole movie happen in, like, three locations.

Because, like, because that's what just kills you dead is, like, having to move around. Like, and that was, and that was just naivete on my part as a guy that hadn't made a feature before. Sure. You know, like, I mean, I've acted in a lot of movies, but I wasn't really responsible for the company moves. and I had no idea that that's all of your budget is just like moving all the shit around. Yeah. And then when you're like, okay, we're going to do it 170 times. They're like, yeah, guess what?

The van costs something. The thing I love about the performances is that they fit the style of the movie so well. You know, it's like especially, I thought Hemsworth really like filled out that character but is never hanging a sign around his neck being like, I'm doing something different, guys. You know, like he feels like he's out of like a 70s crime movie that you might see on a Saturday afternoon sometime. And I was curious about what the conversations were like,

not only to talk him into doing the movie, but calibrating his performance so that it wasn't like, oh, wow, the movie star is like standing on screen here. You know what I mean? It feels very much a part of the ensemble. Yeah. And all credit to Liam for, because a lot of people, you know there's a lot of people that in scenes wouldn't have the confidence to not say much

but part of the thing and this was part of the character is the character doesn't talk a lot you know he's kind of got this interior monologue but that's what leum has that you can't teach is he's a movie star like i said like when we first when i first started watching dailies i was like oh he's clinn eastwood because you just like you just can't stop watching him and he doesn't have to say anything like he's a really fucking and good actor. And I, you know, I hope that that's one of my hopes is that people take away from this is that it's like, oh, he, he should be in conversation for the parts that like Ryan Gosling is doing. Yeah. Because he's got that. Like, he's got that in him. And the way that

he carries stuff with his eyes and his stillness. That's not a teachable thing. That's, that's Clint Eastwood, Steve McQueen. Yeah, I'm thoroughly, thoroughly impressed with him. And I was before we I didn't know him at all, but I had seen him in, he did this weird little indie western with him and Woody Harrelson. And I don't remember the name of the movie, but I watched it and he just carries that movie without talking. And I was like, holy shit, like, this guy's really good. And I don't think people know how good he is. Yeah. Because he's so, he's just so famous. And he's so great looking that I, you know what I mean, though? Like, it's like, I think he's super underrated as an actor. for people to see him in this because I think his performance is really awesome.

I agree. Yeah. When it came to working with guys who are obviously very seasoned and almost like institutions under themselves like Malcovich and Vaughn. Are you kind of going into that saying less is more? Did you have a lot of, you know, did you do a lot of hands-on directing for them? Or were you kind of like, I know what I'm getting from Vince Vaughn or John Malcovich and it's just about putting them in the right scenes?

A little bit of both. I mean, you know, the reality is having these great season actors makes your life as a director way easier. You know, this is sort of something I learned on set a long time ago as an actor. It's like if the director is not saying anything to you, it means you're doing great. And like he's getting to worry about, you know, a light or a dolly track and not having to worry about you. All the prep I did with the actors was mostly just conversations beforehand because I didn't know anybody. in the movie beforehand. Like I met,

I met Malcovich, you know, on location down there. So, you know, my conversations with Malcovich were basically I had kind of a rough idea of what I thought might be interesting and like what I thought this guy's backstory might be. And then he shows up and we're sitting in like, I mean, first of all, like when you open your hotel room door and John Malcovich is standing there,

it's completely overwhelming. And it's funny because, you know, I've done, I've done movies with Robin Williams, Eddie Murphy, Chevy Chase, and all these guys. And I was a little, I'm not going to lie. I was, I was kind of like starstruck by John Malkovich just because I respect him so much. And he just has such a gravity when he walks in a room. I mean, gravity is the only word for it. So he showed up and, you know, he's totally like straight face deadpan. And then we start, he's like, let's just read it. So we sit down to read it.

And he just goes and does that face where he like shows his teeth like he does in the movie. and I just sat there and watched him in one second, like turn into this guy. And I was, I mean, I was just sort of thrilled. Like, you know, I might have given him two notes the whole movie. Like, you can give him three words. And he goes, okay, got it, got it.

And he just nailed it. So, yeah, I mean, you know, truthfully, a movie that shot this fast and this lean, kind of the only way you could do it is with a bunch of movie stars that can work that fast and show up fully formed. Well, it kind of reminds me of a bunch of like 90s ensemble movies that were kind of quasi-Indy or indie movies back then where it would be like a cool

crime movie like even like a thing to do in Denver when you're dead kind of thing where it's like oh this probably doesn't get made unless they get 11 names yeah i haven't seen that movie but you're the second or third person to bring it up i got to watch it because you know obviously just the age i am like those kind of mid-90s miramax indie film like that's my shit like that's what made me want to be a movie director but i have not seen that movie i got to watch that it's definitely worth a rewatch. It's kind of like the end, the tail end of the

riffing on Tarantino stuff that came after Pulp and it's pretty, but it's got its own cadence that's really cool. I was wondering for you, like sometimes when you look at an actor who becomes a filmmaker, tries their hand at directing, you'll see like

oh, they worked with this person, this person, and they were in this kind of movie, but looking at your resume, you wouldn't necessarily see a movie like this in there. like that you were like, you know, taking notes on how to stage a gunfight or something like that. What, like, did you have a desire to be in movies like this? And those opportunities didn't necessarily always present themselves to you. Like, what was your kind of apprenticeship like that made you want to do a movie like this rather than something?

Maybe people would have expected more from you like a comedy. Yeah. I mean, the thing about me and nobody knows this because how would they is I always just wanted to be a director. Like, I mean, since I was like 12 years old, I just wanted to be a. movie director and I went to film school and, you know, like the first thing I did as an adult was Clark and Michael, which we wrote and, you know, I directed and edited all those. And I thought that's what my career trajectory was going to be. But the side effect of Clark and Michael was I got this acting career out of it, which I have been very blessed to have and I've enjoyed and all the above. But

I've always been trying to be a director. Like I've, you know, I've made two pilots. I've made shorts. I've made, like, I've, I've been trying to get this movie made for, like, 10 years. Yeah. You know, because everybody keeps kind of asking. So, like, so what made you decide to, like, just direct a movie? And it's like, well, it's like, you woke up one day. Right. Right.

And it's like, no, no, this is like the culmination of my life, like, lifelong dream and, like, the last third of my life on just this. But it, but it's funny because, you know, I don't know, I'm, like, butchering and paraphrasing whatever the quote is like it takes 10 years to have some overnight success like sure um because you know i mean truthfully somebody asked me the other day like what uh what have you what have you what have you learned or like from the great directors you've worked with and i'm like what great directors like you're like which is like no shots but it's not yeah no shots fired, but like other than like Matthew Vaughn, like, who are we talking about like on my

resume? You know, I've mostly done like, you know, like hundreds of hours of television where just most of the directors, or a lot of the directors of the fair number are mediocre at, but like middling. And that, again, that's not a shot in anybody, but it's just like reality. You know, for me, it's like I said, it's, I've always been a student of film. I mean, I mean, literally in college and just as a person, And, you know, I think for me, I learned a lot more, basically, when I was like 12 and my mom told the video story, guy, let him rent whatever he wants. So, like, you know, I think I got a lot more out of watching like Jackie Brown and Reservoir Dogs and Fargo and shit like that when I was too young than I did. Sure.

Then I picked up from anything on set almost. Well, I always, you know, a conversation that me and Andy, who I do the pod with have had a lot. and I often talk about is like that feeling that, you know, that you were doing something illicit by watching stuff, not only that was like violent or might have like sexual content, but that also had more adult ideas and introduced you to like different themes at a younger age. I don't know whether that's lost at all because somewhere along the line there became such an explosion of stuff that was tailored to teenagers that was like here, here like keep watching stuff about you rather than starting to watch stuff.

about older people or adults or like more complicated ideas. I know that that's like definitely just like a 42-year-old being like they don't make them like they used to, but I do sometimes wonder whether or not like a 13-year-old is trying to watch like Reservoir Dogs now. Well, I think it's also like an issue of just everything's so accessible now that there used to be kind of not just the sense of discovery, but like you had to seek stuff out. Like I was telling somebody they were like, what were you like keeping these questions like, what were you into high school?

when I was like, I was really into, like, comics, but they were not popular. They were the opposite of popular. That's why I have such a weird time wrapping my head around, like, how popular the Avengers movies are. Oh, yeah. Because I'm like, I know you motherfuckers weren't reading The Avengers. Like, like, reading The Avengers was like, like,

actively frowned upon. Like, like, it's, I don't know, it's weird. It's a weird thing to wrap your head around that the stuff that used to be so niche is so popular now. And I don't. I guess the point I was trying to make is you used to have to seek stuff out a little more. And I think there was something that you felt a sense of possessiveness, you know, like you're talking about. And I don't know if people feel that or have that now either. I don't know.

Yeah, because if it's a subculture or if it's mainstream culture, it's kind of delivered on the same platform now. Yeah. Yeah. I was curious whether or not you felt like despite how, you know, this is not an overnight thing, but rather the culmination of like a decade-long pursuit, if you've given a lot of thought as to whether or not the U of 10 years ago could have made the same movie. Maybe not even like technical experience-wise,

but just actually like human life experience-wise. I've thought about that a lot actually because, you know, there's points that you're like, you know, you just kind of have to brace yourself for the reality of, oh my God, I've spent like a third of my life working on this thing that, you know, every indie just has a ceiling. like there's only so much this movie's going to do. Like even like great success for this still doesn't look like, you know, it's not a blockbuster no matter what.

So yeah, I definitely have had those thoughts. But the kind of comforting thing I took away is I think the movie, no, the movie would not have been nearly as good or as thoughtful or interesting me at 25 directing it instead of me at, you know, 35 making it like not even close. So I have to think that, you know, everything happens the way it's supposed to. and I just got to kind of trust like God's timing and not my timing on it because I really, yeah, I think I know the movie would not have been as good if I'd made it then and the now.

Yeah. And I mean, I have to say, it feels like a more season, more melancholy movie probably than the one that you would have made in your 20s. Oh my God. There's a lot more of a sense of like guys kind of losing their fastball or people sort of arriving at a point

where they never, maybe didn't expect to arrive at. And it's kind of... And I think, I think, The movie kind of, I mean, this may just be like boring backstory, but part of what the movie arose out of is in 2015, I had a really, like my first kind of sense of mortality was my grandfather passing, who was like a father to me more than a grandfather. Is this the guy who was?

No, no, no, actually the other one. But he passed and I turned 30, and I just had this kind of like period of a few months there that just really rocked me. and like for the first time, you know, I, you know, call it a quarter-life crisis or whatever, but I really was kind of struck by the passage of time and mortality for the first time. And that coincided with Mark Duplas' South by keynote he gave that year where he talked about his thesis of it was the cavalry is not coming. And that really rang true with me because I realized I had just been, you know,

basically the last time I just, by my bootstraps made something that was really happy and pleased. with my work and my life was when I made Clark and Michael. And, you know, the realization just watched over me like, oh, the agents aren't going to help. Nobody's going to help like me make this movie, basically, that I've been trying to make, you know, for years at this point already. So I ended up, this is a like long, roundabout way to get to this, but I ended up making this pilot at the time that I won't say like, which, who it was, but they'd ask me to develop a pilot. And I said, you know what, just give me the script money and I'm going to go shoot something.

and you can tell me if you like it or not from there. And I kind of knew they weren't going to make the show because I went and basically made like a Robert Altman short film. But I shot a whole pilot for 50 grand in five days. And it was basically me doing an experiment to see if I could make an indie film. And I came out of it and it looks broadcast ready and I was really happy with it. And I may just end up posting on Instagram, to be honest,

after the movie comes up. because, but basically after that I was like, fuck it, I'm just going to make Arkansas. Like, I'll just put all the money I have into it. Me and my brother will just produce it and make it ourselves. And, you know, it would have been a very different small budget, like, very indie affair. Yeah. But like as soon as I kind of did that and put my money where my mouth was, all of a sudden, the agents kind of rallied behind it. When I told them this, they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, don't do that.

Don't put your money in. And once they saw my pilot, my agent literally said, oh, you're a real director. And I said, well, you're my fucking agent, first of all. Like, what a, oh my God. Like, we got to. So what did he think before that? I don't know. I was like, we'll unpack that later.

But yeah, there was. But to get back to like your question about 20 minutes ago, the sense of melancholy and the sense of losing your fastball was very much spurred on by like where I finally like kind of reached that point for the first time as an adult. but the connection between this and Clark and Michael is so interesting because I've been obviously just trapped here and I just been watching a bunch of stuff on Criterion channel

and kind of going through rewatching stuff that I haven't watched in years and I was I was watching some of those early Jim Jarmish movies like down by law and Stranger Than Paradise and stuff and I was like so struck by how obvious it was that he did not give a shit if anyone ever saw it Not in like a unwatchable way,

but just like he's just making this movie for him and his buddies. Right. And like they'll show it at festivals if they can. And that's something that I think that you don't see a ton of anymore. Like I can tell like Arkansas is a movie that you would want to watch. Yeah, I made the movie I wanted to see. And that's kind of why I'm like, you know, you always at every phase of it in the script and the production and the,

and especially in the editing, you know, you're having to like fight people. that are telling you like, oh, no, this isn't, this isn't going to play. Like, people aren't going to, like, respond to this. And at a certain point, you just, you have to reach that point of, I don't give a shit, I like it. Yeah. Like, at the end of the day, even if the movie, even if people don't like the movie, at least it's mine.

And there's a real, there's a real power in that. There's a real power in saying, no, there's a real power in not giving a shit. And that applies to all life, whether it's, like, dating or, you know, business or whatever. Like that's a pretty universal truth. But yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, creatively, that's the best place to be. And it's, and it's really hard to get to you because you still need the money to make these movies. And I'm glad that I had, you know, I'm glad that I had like $3 or $4 million instead of $300,000 or $400,000 to make it because I'm really, I'm really proud of how the movie looks. Like, I think the movie looks beautiful. And I don't think anybody would know that we

didn't have more money than that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's not to say that for every story about like Robert Rodriguez maxed out his credit cards and made El Mariachi, I'm sure there's like, thousands of guys who were like, I'm still in debt from the indie I tried to make in 1999. Yeah, I mean, I know a guy that mortgages house to make an indie and it just, it didn't, and then it didn't make the money back. So yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I feel like that's like a morbid place to stop, so let me ask a little bit about the future, which I guess is also, the future is probably also equally uncertain, but you have, I would imagine, the bug now. Have you started thinking about what you would want to do next in terms of being a filmmaker? Like what itch

you'd want to scratch? Yeah, I mean, I don't just have the bug. Like I said, this is the only thing I've ever wanted to do. So now, now hopefully I can finally act on that and continue to do that. I've got three feature scripts and two pilot scripts written. I'm very ready to go. Yeah, as soon as we can get outside. Yeah. Well, that's awesome, man. I mean, I really enjoyed this movie a lot.

And it was just the feeling of kind of, it literally did feel like a great find. Like you're like, oh, wow, I'm going to definitely revisit this. It's actually kind of cool that people can watch it on streaming and maybe like, you know, fire it up a couple of times. you know, it'll at least be accessible. So I know it's probably bittersweet to have it coming out in this environment, but hopefully people will find it.

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the word for it because, um, you know, as a first time filmmaker and a Southern guy, like South by was such a dream for me to get into, and I was so excited. And, and just as somebody that, you know,

my main activity is going to the movies. And I live in L.A., and you can do that a lot of cool, yeah. See a lot of cool, small movies. in theaters. So I was so excited to see the movie in theater. So the hardest part of the whole thing. And, you know, like I said, I hate to complain too much because there are a lot of people with real problems. These are very luxurious problems. And I'm aware of that. But it's a tough fill to swallow something you've worked on for years and years. And then you kind of have to skip all the

fun parts of. I know. Just actually getting a high five every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. Just it would have been nice. But I, the only thing that's really sad for me is, I've never got to watch it with an audience. And that's a bummer. But maybe, you know, maybe the LMO draft house or the new Beverly or somewhere next year I'll throw it up or something. Yeah, I'm hopeful about that.

And I honestly do think that this one's going to stick around and people are going to be talking about it for a while. Thank you. Thank you. Clark, thanks so much for joining us today, man. Yeah, my pleasure, dude. I'm a big fan of the show and the ringer in general. So this is really fun. Thanks so much, dude. Take care.

Thanks, man.